Message-ID: <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:27:05 +0200 From: Javier Caselli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.5.70.81 X-Trace: 22 Sep 1999 23:23:16 +0100, 195.5.70.81 Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.bt.es!news.arrakis.es!195.5.70.81 I'm sorry to read all this, I had founded hopes in this ME based RPG, damm it! -- "Through darkness one may come to the light" "Yet one will walk under the sun while one may" Greetings from Malaga(SPAIN) from Javier Caselli (j_caselli@arrakis.es) ###### From: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: 23 Sep 1999 06:00:52 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 16 Message-ID: <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> NNTP-Posting-Host: dept.english.upenn.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-upenn1.3] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.upenn.edu!dept.english.upenn.edu!rbarrett Well, ICE lost the Middle Earth license b/c they're in Chapter 11 bankruptcy at the moment. Given their financial instability as well as their inability to get past 1985 in terms of roleplaying game development, I'm not surprised that Tolkien Enterprises yanked the license and plans to give it to another gaming company in time for the movies' release. Best, Rob -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * Dept. of English, Univ. of Pennsylvania * "What makes the muskrat guard his musk? Courage!" The Cowardly Lion (Bert Lahr), *The Wizard of Oz* (1939) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7scgla$15s_014@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 26 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 06:17:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.250 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938067568 209.181.118.250 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 01:19:28 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 01:19:28 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote: > >Well, ICE lost the Middle Earth license b/c they're in Chapter 11 >bankruptcy at the moment. Given their financial instability as well as >their inability to get past 1985 in terms of roleplaying game development, >I'm not surprised that Tolkien Enterprises yanked the license and plans to >give it to another gaming company in time for the movies' release. They've been in Chapter 11 for a while, and if anything, that action has stabilized their cash flow (which is one of the benefits of going through bankruptcy for a business). I don't see the connection between the bankruptcy and the license loss. My suspicion is that Tolkien Enterprises was not satisfied with the age-old revenue stream (it was declining anyway) and they decided to see if they could work a better deal with a larger company that would be looking at the movies and thinking, "Hm...timing". It remains to be seen how the cards fall. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37e9d77b.74380283@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-44.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 63 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:52:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 938072933 207.212.198.18 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:48:53 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:48:53 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!carrier1.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:00:10 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >Sierra Online has decided to restructure itself and in the process it has >halted development of their Middle-earth Online game and apparently fired >the entire 20-member development team. Daniel James, the lead developer, >just happened to be in the UK when the axe fell. Ouch. That's the second time to date. Someone at the Sierra Cybernetics Corporation really doesn't like this project. >At the same time, Iron Crown Enterprises has announced they are severing >their relationship with Tolkien Enterprises (or perhaps the axe fell the >other way). ICE is no longer processing orders for MERP or ME:TW or any >other Middle-earth-related product lines they had. Now, if *Sierra* severed their relationship with Tolkien Enterprises, that wouldn't be quite as bad. I'd really like to see the computer game rights go to someone more deserving, and more likely to do something decent with them. Microprose, for example. (If nothing else, they have a better record for multiplayer online games than Sierra does. Microprose is 0 for 0, and Sierra is 0 for 1.) >Sierra wants a "mass market" game. I think this means a bunch of suits who >have probably never read Tolkien's books decided they wanted a generic game >dressed up in Tolkien names. And undoubtedly their Elves will have pointed >ears. I'm sure that will be the least of their problems. I don't see how it could possibly get much more 'mass-market' than it was looking like it would become, but I'm saying that as a gamer, not as a Tolkien fan. In terms of fidelity to the source material, the developers were doing fairly well, and most importantly they were responding to criticism. Case in point: when they first announced the list of character classes, it included things like 'assassin', 'sorcerer', and 'barbarian', none of which have much basis in anything Tolkien wrote. After a few complaints, they fixed it and announced a new class list. (From a gaming perspective I have problems with the whole idea of 'character classes' as such, as do most roleplayers, but that's a separate issue.) >I have no intention in playing a game which the designers don't intend to >be as faithful to Tolkien as they can make it. I will wait and see what >Sierra comes up with, but I suspect it will be pure bunk, and probably >won't be the glorified money-maker they are assuming. Too many people know >about Tolkien and the hardcore gaming community probably won't be the only >people to reject pap. If, however, Sierra finds another developer's team >who can please the suits and stay faithful to Tolkien, then I say more >power to them. But right now one of the suits' primary objections is there >were going to be too few Elves in the game. > >Hey, guys. Read the books! You know, they *could* tell the new developers to set the game in the First Age. This might make it more palatable to the 'mass market' that insists on lots of Elves that run around casting powerful spells and wielding magical three-handed battle-axes, but it would give the whole thing a rather futile tone. You're right. Sierra should turn their license over to someone who cares. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: MIchael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7scrt2$is_008@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37e9d77b.74380283@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 74 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:29:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.250 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938079075 209.181.118.250 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:31:15 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:31:15 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37e9d77b.74380283@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:00:10 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>Sierra Online has decided to restructure itself and in the process it has >>halted development of their Middle-earth Online game and apparently fired >>the entire 20-member development team. Daniel James, the lead developer, >>just happened to be in the UK when the axe fell. > >Ouch. That's the second time to date. Someone at the Sierra >Cybernetics Corporation really doesn't like this project. BTW -- James was a writer (the head honcho on that part of the team). Stephen Nichols was the lead developer. Big oops for me. >>Sierra wants a "mass market" game. I think this means a bunch of suits who >>have probably never read Tolkien's books decided they wanted a generic game >>dressed up in Tolkien names. And undoubtedly their Elves will have pointed >>ears. > >I'm sure that will be the least of their problems. I don't see how it >could possibly get much more 'mass-market' than it was looking like it >would become, but I'm saying that as a gamer, not as a Tolkien fan. >In terms of fidelity to the source material, the developers were doing >fairly well, and most importantly they were responding to criticism. I didn't think it was looking "mass market" at all -- not in the sense that Tolkienisms were being tossed out the door. Some of the things the new management apparently wants are for everyone to be able to play elves, hobbits to be strong as Men, and for humans to be able to use magic casually. Does that sound like THE LORD OF THE RINGS to anyone? >Case in point: when they first announced the list of character >classes, it included things like 'assassin', 'sorcerer', and >'barbarian', none of which have much basis in anything Tolkien wrote. So what? There were indeed barbarians in Middle-earth. Tolkien just didn't use the term. And he did use the term sorceror (many times, often when speaking of Elves). Assigning names to professions is fine. And most of the "purists" tend to overlook obscure references that would allow the stuff the designers wanted anyway. >After a few complaints, they fixed it and announced a new class list. Yes, they made changes in the face of complaints. There were many complaints based on misunderstandings of Tolkien's world. Many people were aghast at the idea that Dwarves should be able to use magic. >(From a gaming perspective I have problems with the whole idea of >'character classes' as such, as do most roleplayers, but that's a >separate issue.) I've roleplayed. Character classes are artificial and they limit player innovation. They also make games playable and inspire player innovation. >You know, they *could* tell the new developers to set the game in the >First Age. This might make it more palatable to the 'mass market' >that insists on lots of Elves that run around casting powerful spells >and wielding magical three-handed battle-axes, but it would give the >whole thing a rather futile tone. Nope. First Age is off limits. The design team was sort of stretching things a bit by going into the Fourth Age. I'd love to see a First Age game, and I gather a lot of other people would, too. The long-time gamers may not have been crossing their Ts on Tolkien minutiae, but they had the basics down pat. Everyone knew you didn't want to meet a player-killer who happened to be running a Noldorin warrior. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: urban@netcom.com (Michael Urban) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: 23 Sep 1999 14:28:39 GMT Organization: NETCOM / MindSpring Enterprises, Inc. Lines: 95 Message-ID: <7sdden$81v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: netcom3.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 23 9:28:39 AM CDT 1999 NNTP-Posting-User: urban Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed00.btx.dtag.de!bignews.mediaways.net!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!feeder.qis.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ix.netcom.com!urban In article <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org>, Michael Martinez wrote: >Followups redirected to rec.arts.books.tolkien. > >This is a black day for Tolkien fandom, in my opinion. Well, as someone who was at least as bummed out as you, I should remind us that this is only a black day for us Tolkien fans who are into gaming; the others have no reason to care. >Sierra wants a "mass market" game. I think this means a bunch of suits who >have probably never read Tolkien's books decided they wanted a generic game >dressed up in Tolkien names. And undoubtedly their Elves will have pointed >ears. Can you find specific references for this? Given the fact that Sierra cancelled a much-awaited Babylon 5 game because they did not feel the return on investment would be sufficient, I am inclined to believe that the suits are stressing profits over craft. However, I have found nothing in the recent news or interviews that indicates specifically that the game is being restarted because it lacks sufficient mass appeal. Note that the Orc combat game (which looked pretty generic-mass-appeally to me) was also cancelled. As recently as a month ago, the Middle Earth Online people were at the North American Science Fiction Convention interviewing people, and especially Tolkien fans, to find out what they wanted to see, and did _not_ want to see, in such an environment. These people honestly seemed interested in Doing It Right, though clearly constrained by the need to attract a large number of players. Since Sierra is talking about "restarting" and "restaffing", I guess all those people are now gone. >power to them. But right now one of the suits' primary objections is there >were going to be too few Elves in the game. A reference for this would be helpful!! > [ Iron Crown Enterprises and their ME RPG ] >Undoubtedly Tolkien Enterprises is interested in placing the RPG license in >other hands, assuming there is a viable market for it. I'm not so sure >myself. RPGs have evolved through the years and there don't seem to be >many people playing the old-style RPGs. Maybe some hotshot young game >designer will take the Tolkien trademarks and come up with some radical >punk-apocalyptic Middle-earth scenario that will sell 100,000 copies. >Maybe not. Another casualty of Iron Crown's demise and loss of license was the Middle Earth Collectible Card Game. This game had a unique "narrative" feel in which familiar characters moved about a map of Middle Earth facing nasty hazards and collecting useful resources (such as moving Earth from Galadriel's Garden to Bag End, then mustering Hobbits there). The learning curve was a little steep compared to other CCGs, but the game had considerable initial success. The trap of CCGs, though is that the publisher must "refresh" the product periodically with expansions and new cards. In the case of Middle-Earth, these expansions added complexities and ambiguities to the game that ultimately shrank its audience. ICE had recently redesigned the game to be considerably simpler and streamlined, without sacrificing its unique characteristics, but it now appears that the result will never see the light of day. Again, I fear that whoever licenses the CCG will go for "mass market" and a movie tie-in, and will give us a game indistinguishable from Pokemon except for the artwork (which will probably comprise movie stills). Oh well, I still have my cards and can still play the game as it was. If anyone is curious about ME-CCG, I have many spare "common" cards that can be used to create playable decks, and will part with them at little cost. >Tolkien fandom really didn't depend on these gaming systems. The MERP >adherents were only a small faction and Middle-earth Online has been a >dream always just over the horizon. But they represented opportunities for >people to put down the books and step into interpretations of Tolkien's >world which had some visibility. For now our only immediate prospect of >doing that online remains the Elendor MUSH, for those who like that sort of >game [http://www.elendor.net/]. As the film approaches and the licensing and trademarks become more popular, the possibility exists that Tolkien Enterprises will move to protect their trademarks by removing anything that looks like a Tolkien game. So Elendor MUSH, or Mike Collins's freeware Middle Earth Collectible Card Game simulator that facilitates network play (NETMECCG) may also be in jeopardy. >The timing of these announcements was, IMO, insensitive, and perhaps could >not have been avoided, but I rather suspect no effort was made to avoid it. > The suits at Sierra probably had no clue as to the significance of >September 22 for Tolkien fans. I say, let them live in infamy and give the >chance to someone else with greater appreciation for Tolkien. It is indeed a cruel accident, if accident it was. Mike ###### From: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: 23 Sep 1999 15:34:33 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 48 Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sdha9$6p6$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7scgla$15s_014@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: dept.english.upenn.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-upenn1.3] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.upenn.edu!dept.english.upenn.edu!rbarrett Michael Martinez (Michael@xenite.org) wrote: : They've been in Chapter 11 for a while, and if anything, that action has : stabilized their cash flow (which is one of the benefits of going through : bankruptcy for a business). Stabilized, yes. But stabilized doesn't mean healthy prospect for the future. West End Games went bankrupt in a spectacular manner a year or two ago, lost the Star Wars license, lost the Hercules/Xena license, and almost lost the DC Comics license. They got bailed out by forming a new company underwritten by the French games manufacturer, Yeti; once Yeti provided the funding, DC Comics resumed the licensing deal, and West End/Yeti now has the DC Heroes RPG coming out. Without that help from Yeti, I believe full well that there would be no new DC Heroes RPG. : I don't see the connection between the bankruptcy and the license loss. My : suspicion is that Tolkien Enterprises was not satisfied with the age-old : revenue stream (it was declining anyway) and they decided to see if they : could work a better deal with a larger company that would be looking at the : movies and thinking, "Hm...timing". This is probably true. There hasn't been any real new MERP product in several years. The CCG, however good, was a costly effort, and the collapse of the CCG market/fad made matters worse. On top of that, let's face it: MERP has been bogged down in a mid-1980s model of gaming for years. ICE does a nice setting, but until the end they couldn't write a good adventure scenario to save their life (Palantir Quest came too late, IMHO). If I were Tolkien Enterprises, I think I'd be looking for new blood to revitalize my property's gaming version. Warmed-over and dumbed-down Rolemaster doesn't cut it in a market in which even D&D is getting a major facelift and streamlining. : It remains to be seen how the cards fall. My reading of the ICE announcement is that someone else is already in negotiations to acquire the gaming licenses for Middle Earth. Fenlon acted as if he was actively assisting that process. Best, Rob -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * Dept. of English, Univ. of Pennsylvania * "What makes the muskrat guard his musk? Courage!" The Cowardly Lion (Bert Lahr), *The Wizard of Oz* (1939) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sdous$cc_022@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <7sdden$81v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 33 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:45:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.245 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938108838 207.224.149.245 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:47:18 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:47:18 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7sdden$81v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, urban@netcom.com (Michael Urban) wrote: >In article <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org>, >Michael Martinez wrote: >>Sierra wants a "mass market" game. I think this means a bunch of suits who >>have probably never read Tolkien's books decided they wanted a generic game >>dressed up in Tolkien names. And undoubtedly their Elves will have pointed >>ears. > >Can you find specific references for this? Given the fact that >Sierra cancelled a much-awaited Babylon 5 game because they did not >feel the return on investment would be sufficient, I am inclined to >believe that the suits are stressing profits over craft. However, >I have found nothing in the recent news or interviews that indicates >specifically that the game is being restarted because it lacks >sufficient mass appeal. Look at Stephen Nichols' comments on Middle-Earth Stratics [http://me.stratics.com/]. >>power to them. But right now one of the suits' primary objections is there >>were going to be too few Elves in the game. > >A reference for this would be helpful!! Well, if the Stratics site doesn't have THAT reference, it is definitely in the news listings at the Middle-earth Vault [http://www.mevault.com/]. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sdp4n$cc_024@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7scgla$15s_014@Org.xenite.org> <7sdha9$6p6$1@netnews.upenn.edu> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 30 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:48:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.245 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938109025 207.224.149.245 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:50:25 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:50:25 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7sdha9$6p6$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote: >Michael Martinez (Michael@xenite.org) wrote: > >: They've been in Chapter 11 for a while, and if anything, that action has >: stabilized their cash flow (which is one of the benefits of going through >: bankruptcy for a business). > >Stabilized, yes. But stabilized doesn't mean healthy prospect for the >future. West End Games went bankrupt in a spectacular manner a year or >two ago, lost the Star Wars license, lost the Hercules/Xena license, and >almost lost the DC Comics license. They got bailed out by forming a new >company underwritten by the French games manufacturer, Yeti; once Yeti >provided the funding, DC Comics resumed the licensing deal, and West >End/Yeti now has the DC Heroes RPG coming out. Without that help from >Yeti, I believe full well that there would be no new DC Heroes RPG. Nonetheless, it's incorrect to assume that what happened to one company will happen to another. Companies go through bankruptcy all the time. It's a part of the business world. Some companies never go through it, some companies do. The bankruptcy serves to get the creditors off the companies' backs and give them a chance to work out a repayment plan. Refinancing to bring in new capital is often a part of the process. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: 23 Sep 1999 18:02:34 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 38 Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sdpvq$4e4$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7scgla$15s_014@Org.xenite.org> <7sdha9$6p6$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7sdp4n$cc_024@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: dept.english.upenn.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-upenn1.3] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-feed.news.verio.net!feed.news.verio.net!nntp.upenn.edu!dept.english.upenn.edu!rbarrett Michael Martinez (Michael@xenite.org) wrote: : Nonetheless, it's incorrect to assume that what happened to one company : will happen to another. Companies go through bankruptcy all the time. : It's a part of the business world. Some companies never go through it, : some companies do. The bankruptcy serves to get the creditors off the : companies' backs and give them a chance to work out a repayment plan. : Refinancing to bring in new capital is often a part of the process. Good points, Michael. I'll grant them. That said, though, I still have no problem with Tolkien Enterprises yanking the license in this situation. MERP was effectively a dead game long before the bankruptcy of this summer. Moreoever, it wasn't even a good game. A magic system that resembled D&D far more than it did Tolkien, adventure scenarios which rarely amounted to more than dungeon crawls, a bad decision to limit MERP characters to 10th level (in the hopes that players would go onto Rolemaster), unwise product decisions (the last MERP to come out was a book filled with lists and lists of healing herbs). I don't think ICE had what it took to compete with RPGs in the 1990s, and I think Tolkien will be better served by another company. There's still a market for traditional high fantasy gaming, and Middle Earth is a perfect setting for such gaming--provided it gets handled properly. ICE's Kin-Strife campaign book was the right idea, but it came out too late and was still too saddled with their mania for building diagrams and lists. Let's what what someone else can do. Best, Rob -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * Dept. of English, Univ. of Pennsylvania * "What makes the muskrat guard his musk? Courage!" The Cowardly Lion (Bert Lahr), *The Wizard of Oz* (1939) ###### Message-ID: <37EA5195.4F865213@swipnet.se> From: "Elio M. Garcia, Jr." X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <7sdden$81v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 53 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.62.44 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 938103192 212.151.62.44 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:13:12 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:13:12 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-61096@d212-151-62-44.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:13:09 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Michael Urban wrote: > > In article <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org>, > Michael Martinez wrote: > >This is a black day for Tolkien fandom, in my opinion. > > Well, as someone who was at least as bummed out as you, I should remind > us that this is only a black day for us Tolkien fans who are into > gaming; the others have no reason to care. I think increased public awareness of the books, by way of these games, might have ended up creating new fans who have (somehow) escaped reading them to this point. Perhaps only a very few people would end up introduced to _The Lord of the Rings_ in this manner, yet still -- it would have been nice. > Can you find specific references for this? Given the fact that Try www.mevault.com. Scroll down to news from the 21st and find the section "Stephen on Middle-earth." Stephen Nichols was one of the designers of the game. Specifically, he states: Sierra is simply going to redesign Middle-earth and restaff it after the redesign. All I can say is that they want to redesign the game to make it more "mass market." > >power to them. But right now one of the suits' primary objections is there > >were going to be too few Elves in the game. > > A reference for this would be helpful!! Also from "Stephen on Middle-earth": Oh, no, I believe that Sierra knows that it will be a BIG money maker. Just not with ideas like: 1. Permanent death. 2. Character psychology. 3. Character binding. 4. Non-spell casting humans. 5. Realistic hobbit strength. 6. Elf population limitations. -- [Upon a Dzurlord learning of the murder of a critic by a painter] "And it was well done, too. I'd have done the same, only-" "Yes?" "I don't paint." (Steven Brust, _The Phoenix Guards_) Elio M. García, Jr. (elio@swipnet.se) ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:13:19 GMT Organization: PowerSurfr - High Speed Internet Lines: 12 Message-ID: <37ea6d83.10874310@news.prosurfr.com> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37e9d77b.74380283@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-003.v-wave.com X-Trace: dagger.videotron.ab.ca 938110322 29565 24.108.21.103 (23 Sep 1999 18:12:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 1999 18:12:02 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newspeer.ebone.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.tac.net!news.videotron.ab.ca!not-for-mail mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote, in part: >Ouch. That's the second time to date. Someone at the Sierra >Cybernetics Corporation really doesn't like this project. Are you trying to imply that they'll be the first ones up against the wall when the revolution comes? (for literary reference, change Sierra to Sirius) John Savard ( teneerf<- ) http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sdrbg$cc_034@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7scgla$15s_014@Org.xenite.org> <7sdha9$6p6$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7sdp4n$cc_024@Org.xenite.org> <7sdpvq$4e4$1@netnews.upenn.edu> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 27 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:25:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.245 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938111170 207.224.149.245 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:26:10 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:26:10 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7sdpvq$4e4$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote: >Michael Martinez (Michael@xenite.org) wrote: > >: Nonetheless, it's incorrect to assume that what happened to one company >: will happen to another. Companies go through bankruptcy all the time. >: It's a part of the business world. Some companies never go through it, >: some companies do. The bankruptcy serves to get the creditors off the >: companies' backs and give them a chance to work out a repayment plan. > >: Refinancing to bring in new capital is often a part of the process. > >Good points, Michael. I'll grant them. > >That said, though, I still have no problem with Tolkien Enterprises >yanking the license in this situation. MERP was effectively a dead game >long before the bankruptcy of this summer. Moreoever, it wasn't even a >good game. Okay, fair enough. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Jon Osborn Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:04:23 GMT Organization: Smartakus Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7se13u$n3g$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> Reply-To: jonosborn@bigfoot.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.185.1.31 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Sep 23 20:04:23 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x26.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 38.185.1.31 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjon_osborn Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, Robert Barrett wrote: > Well, ICE lost the Middle Earth license b/c they're in Chapter 11 > bankruptcy at the moment. Given their financial instability as well > as their inability to get past 1985 in terms of roleplaying game > development RPGs are not "technology", like cell phones or computers. > I'm not surprised that Tolkien Enterprises yanked the > license and plans to > give it to another gaming company in time for the movies' release. Perhaps Steve Jackson Games. They now do Traveler, since Game Designers' Workshop is no more. -- Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: 23 Sep 1999 23:30:44 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 44 Message-ID: <7sed74$h7q$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7se13u$n3g$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dept.english.upenn.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-upenn1.3] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.upenn.edu!dept.english.upenn.edu!rbarrett Jon Osborn (jon_osborn@my-deja.com) wrote: : In <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, Robert Barrett wrote: : > Well, ICE lost the Middle Earth license b/c they're in Chapter 11 : > bankruptcy at the moment. Given their financial instability as well : > as their inability to get past 1985 in terms of roleplaying game : > development : RPGs are not "technology", like cell phones or computers. True. A game released in 1981 is just as playable today as it was then. That said, I do think that ICE's MERP products tended to default to dungeon crawl, clean-out-the-building-room-by-room approaches to adventure and story design. Add to this an emphasis on lots of stats/numbers, the extensive use of charts, and (to me) the unwise decision to cap advancement at level 10 (so as to get people to move up to Rolemaster), and you have a game that largely ignored most of what's happened in roleplaying since the mid 1980s. I think that Palantir Quest and Kin-Strife were moves in the "right" direction (adventures beyond killing orcs/trolls/bandits, a campaign setting filled with potential for intrique and betrayal), but they came out too late. : > I'm not surprised that Tolkien Enterprises yanked the : > license and plans to : > give it to another gaming company in time for the movies' release. : Perhaps Steve Jackson Games. They now do Traveler, since Game : Designers' Workshop is no more. With a modified magic system, GURPS would be fine for Middle Earth. I think a freeform system like Over the Edge would work as well. And then there's the wonderful Amber DRPG version of Middle Earth available on the Web (I'll try to dig up the URL). Best, Rob -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * Dept. of English, Univ. of Pennsylvania * "What makes the muskrat guard his musk? Courage!" The Cowardly Lion (Bert Lahr), *The Wizard of Oz* (1939) ###### From: nsmith1002@aol.com (NSmith1002) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 24 Sep 1999 04:37:30 GMT References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990924003730.20618.00001302@ng-ba1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.sztaki.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!europa.netcrusader.net!205.231.82.12!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >Sierra Online has decided to restructure itself and in the process it has >halted development of their Middle-earth Online game and apparently fired >the entire 20-member development team. Sierra also has done the same thing to the Babylon 5 simulation and its team. Those of us who are also B5 fans are twice screwed! neil ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37eb0178.150677066@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37e9d77b.74380283@news.pc-intouch.com> <7scrt2$is_008@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-68.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 75 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:58:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 938148900 207.212.198.18 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 21:55:00 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 21:55:00 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:29:06 GMT, MIchael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >I didn't think it was looking "mass market" at all -- not in the sense that >Tolkienisms were being tossed out the door. Some of the things the new >management apparently wants are for everyone to be able to play elves, >hobbits to be strong as Men, and for humans to be able to use magic >casually. Does that sound like THE LORD OF THE RINGS to anyone? That's why I said it was looking 'mass-market' in terms of gameplay issues rather than any pattern of disregarding Tolkien. >>Case in point: when they first announced the list of character >>classes, it included things like 'assassin', 'sorcerer', and >>'barbarian', none of which have much basis in anything Tolkien wrote. > >So what? There were indeed barbarians in Middle-earth. Tolkien just >didn't use the term. And he did use the term sorceror (many times, often >when speaking of Elves). Assigning names to professions is fine. And most >of the "purists" tend to overlook obscure references that would allow the >stuff the designers wanted anyway. The problem with these is that they suggest ideas about the characters that would be fine in some other setting, but don't work in Middle-earth. 'Sorceror' is a good example. >>After a few complaints, they fixed it and announced a new class list. > >Yes, they made changes in the face of complaints. There were many >complaints based on misunderstandings of Tolkien's world. Many people were >aghast at the idea that Dwarves should be able to use magic. Yes, but they didn't change that part. My point is that when someone complained about this sort of thing, they at least took a second look at it. They didn't just blow it off. >>(From a gaming perspective I have problems with the whole idea of >>'character classes' as such, as do most roleplayers, but that's a >>separate issue.) > >I've roleplayed. Character classes are artificial and they limit player >innovation. They also make games playable and inspire player innovation. There are plenty of classless games that still manage to be playable. >>You know, they *could* tell the new developers to set the game in the >>First Age. This might make it more palatable to the 'mass market' >>that insists on lots of Elves that run around casting powerful spells >>and wielding magical three-handed battle-axes, but it would give the >>whole thing a rather futile tone. > >Nope. First Age is off limits. The design team was sort of stretching >things a bit by going into the Fourth Age. I'd love to see a First Age >game, and I gather a lot of other people would, too. The long-time gamers >may not have been crossing their Ts on Tolkien minutiae, but they had the >basics down pat. Everyone knew you didn't want to meet a player-killer who >happened to be running a Noldorin warrior. Why not? That sort of thing *did* happen on occasion in the First Age. Noldorin warriors going postal and hacking people apart--yes, that does sound vaguely familiar. The great thing about a First Age game is that *everyone* is bigger and more powerful. So you still get your Level 27 Fireball spells and your magical three-handed axes, but they don't unbalance the game because the other characters all have fireproof Dwarven battle-masks and mithril armor. The problem is that 'everyone' includes the bad guys, which can be very frustrating if you're not a bad guy. Most of the bad guys are mass-produced expendable cannon fodder just waiting to be decapitated by Noldorin warriors, which can be very frustrating if you *are* a bad guy. It's just a frustrating setting. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sf3he$3pg_054@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37e9d77b.74380283@news.pc-intouch.com> <7scrt2$is_008@Org.xenite.org> <37eb0178.150677066@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 83 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 05:51:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.102 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938152311 207.224.147.102 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:51:51 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:51:51 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37eb0178.150677066@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:29:06 GMT, MIchael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>>Case in point: when they first announced the list of character >>>classes, it included things like 'assassin', 'sorcerer', and >>>'barbarian', none of which have much basis in anything Tolkien wrote. >> >>So what? There were indeed barbarians in Middle-earth. Tolkien just >>didn't use the term. And he did use the term sorceror (many times, often >>when speaking of Elves). Assigning names to professions is fine. And most >>of the "purists" tend to overlook obscure references that would allow the >>stuff the designers wanted anyway. > >The problem with these is that they suggest ideas about the characters >that would be fine in some other setting, but don't work in >Middle-earth. 'Sorceror' is a good example. I don't understand what you're getting at. 'Sorceror' works just fine in Middle-earth. There were plenty of them. >>>After a few complaints, they fixed it and announced a new class list. >> >>Yes, they made changes in the face of complaints. There were many >>complaints based on misunderstandings of Tolkien's world. Many people were >>aghast at the idea that Dwarves should be able to use magic. > >Yes, but they didn't change that part. Fortunately (although I have to wonder what the next developmennt team will be given as a mandate). >My point is that when someone complained about this sort of thing, >they at least took a second look at it. They didn't just blow it off. Well, you're right. The development team was fairly responsive, and I guess a lot of their critics are now wondering if maybe they came down too hard on them in the past few months now the truth is known about what was going on. >>Nope. First Age is off limits. The design team was sort of stretching >>things a bit by going into the Fourth Age. I'd love to see a First Age >>game, and I gather a lot of other people would, too. The long-time gamers >>may not have been crossing their Ts on Tolkien minutiae, but they had the >>basics down pat. Everyone knew you didn't want to meet a player-killer who >>happened to be running a Noldorin warrior. > >Why not? That sort of thing *did* happen on occasion in the First >Age. Noldorin warriors going postal and hacking people apart--yes, >that does sound vaguely familiar. Let me put it this way: if you're going on an adventure with a Noldorin warrior and you're just a Hobbit shoemaker, whom do you think is going to get the most kills, and whom is most likely to get killed? People also didn't want to see a lot of Elves running around in the Fourth Age. But everyone would probably take the Noldorin Elf over the local farmboy, hobbit or otherwise. >The great thing about a First Age game is that *everyone* is bigger >and more powerful. So you still get your Level 27 Fireball spells and >your magical three-handed axes, but they don't unbalance the game >because the other characters all have fireproof Dwarven battle-masks >and mithril armor. Yes, but there is no legal means of creating an authorized game for anything but the Third Age. Saul Zaentz only controls the marketing/merchandising rights pertaining to the "movie rights" for "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" (both names referring to film production entities). He has pushed the envelope considerably, but he cannot license anything to do with material which was not published in THE HOBBIT and/or THE LORD OF THE RINGS. There is too little information in these books concerning the First Age. The First Age would actually be a much more playable setting than the Third Age or early Fourth Age. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37eb1907.156708467@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37e9d77b.74380283@news.pc-intouch.com> <7scrt2$is_008@Org.xenite.org> <37eb0178.150677066@news.pc-intouch.com> <7sf3he$3pg_054@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-42.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 80 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 07:04:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 938156497 207.212.198.18 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:01:37 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:01:37 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news.pbi.net.MISMATCH!cyclone.pbi.net!206.13.29.23!cyclone-la.pbi.net!151.164.61.60!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 05:51:42 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >>The problem with these is that they suggest ideas about the characters >>that would be fine in some other setting, but don't work in >>Middle-earth. 'Sorceror' is a good example. > >I don't understand what you're getting at. 'Sorceror' works just fine in >Middle-earth. There were plenty of them. What I'm getting at is that people who have played Ultima Online or EverQuest or D&D or any other (alleged) RPG that involves 'sorcerers' will have that much more trouble adapting to Tolkien's idea of what a sorcerer is. They'll have enough problems just because of Elves and Dwarves. There's no need to make the culture shock any worse. >>My point is that when someone complained about this sort of thing, >>they at least took a second look at it. They didn't just blow it off. > >Well, you're right. The development team was fairly responsive, and I >guess a lot of their critics are now wondering if maybe they came down too >hard on them in the past few months now the truth is known about what was >going on. Yes, I think I understand what you're saying. >>Why not? That sort of thing *did* happen on occasion in the First >>Age. Noldorin warriors going postal and hacking people apart--yes, >>that does sound vaguely familiar. > >Let me put it this way: if you're going on an adventure with a Noldorin >warrior and you're just a Hobbit shoemaker, whom do you think is going to >get the most kills, and whom is most likely to get killed? Hobbit shoemakers don't go on adventures. They make shoes for Noldorin warriors, who repay them by going on adventures and eliminating dragons for them. Anyway, this isn't a problem with the First Age as such--Noldorin warriors would be more effective in battle than Hobbit farmers even in the Third Age. >People also didn't want to see a lot of Elves running around in the Fourth >Age. But everyone would probably take the Noldorin Elf over the local >farmboy, hobbit or otherwise. That's because local farmboys have comparatively boring lives. It's certainly possible to roleplay a local farmboy in an interesting way, but insisting that your local farmboy should be able to go on adventures with Noldorin warriors and not get killed is the wrong way to approach it. >Yes, but there is no legal means of creating an authorized game for I have to concede this, but it's a separate issue. Actually, since Tolkien Enterprises only owns the rights for _The Hobbit_ and LOTR, I suppose the legal means of creating an authorized First Age game would involve talking to Christopher Tolkien and his battalion of lawyers. But since Sierra hasn't done this, there may be hope for a First Age game from someone with a clue. >anything but the Third Age. Saul Zaentz only controls the >marketing/merchandising rights pertaining to the "movie rights" for "The >Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" (both names referring to film >production entities). He has pushed the envelope considerably, but he >cannot license anything to do with material which was not published in THE >HOBBIT and/or THE LORD OF THE RINGS. There is too little information in >these books concerning the First Age. Right, a game based entirely on Bilbo's "Song of Earendil". That would be interesting. >The First Age would actually be a much more playable setting than the Third >Age or early Fourth Age. That's what I'm trying to say. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37e9d77b.74380283@news.pc-intouch.com> <7scrt2$is_008@Org.xenite.org> <37eb0178.150677066@news.pc-intouch.com> <7sf3he$3pg_054@Org.xenite.org> <37eb1907.156708467@news.pc-intouch.com> <7sgo5h$304_016@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 39 Date: 24 Sep 1999 16:01:43 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 938214109 207.212.198.18 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 16:01:49 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 16:01:49 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 20:49:53 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >>Hobbit shoemakers don't go on adventures. They make shoes for >>Noldorin warriors, who repay them by going on adventures and >>eliminating dragons for them. > >Really? I could think of a few shoemakers who would go on adventures -- >especially if Orcs came and ravaged the towns they lived in. Sure, they might defend themselves if someone attacked them, but they shouldn't expect to last long. They're not trained to fight. >>Actually, since Tolkien Enterprises only owns the rights for _The >>Hobbit_ and LOTR, I suppose the legal means of creating an authorized >>First Age game would involve talking to Christopher Tolkien and his >>battalion of lawyers. > >The Tolkien Estate, of which Christopher is part owner, I believe. The >administrator is an attorney (or law firm) in London. However, I've been >told the Tolkien Estate declines all licensing arrangements except for >publishing the books. They made a licensing arrangement with Saul Zaentz, didn't they? Their policy to date, in general, has been to decline other licensing arrangements. They could still license the rights to _The Silmarillion_ and other stuff to anyone. >>Right, a game based entirely on Bilbo's "Song of Earendil". That >>would be interesting. > >And quite limiting, or quite different. They would have to eschew >everything in THE SILMARILLION which isn't accurately portrayed in THE LORD >OF THE RINGS -- assuming they could do it anyway. Sorry, I meant that sarcastically. A game based on Bilbo's "Song of Earendil" would have three characters: Earendil, Elwing, and Elbereth. Not much potential there. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Webmaster@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sgo5h$304_016@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37e9d77b.74380283@news.pc-intouch.com> <7scrt2$is_008@Org.xenite.org> <37eb0178.150677066@news.pc-intouch.com> <7sf3he$3pg_054@Org.xenite.org> <37eb1907.156708467@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 82 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 20:49:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.210 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938206211 207.224.149.210 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:50:11 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:50:11 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed00.btx.dtag.de!newsfeed01.btx.dtag.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.cwix.com!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37eb1907.156708467@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 05:51:42 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>>The problem with these is that they suggest ideas about the characters >>>that would be fine in some other setting, but don't work in >>>Middle-earth. 'Sorceror' is a good example. >> >>I don't understand what you're getting at. 'Sorceror' works just fine in >>Middle-earth. There were plenty of them. > >What I'm getting at is that people who have played Ultima Online or >EverQuest or D&D or any other (alleged) RPG that involves 'sorcerers' >will have that much more trouble adapting to Tolkien's idea of what a >sorcerer is. They'll have enough problems just because of Elves and >Dwarves. There's no need to make the culture shock any worse. Oh. Well, in that case, I should say those people should never play another game again. It would be far preferable to letting one or two games dictate whatever is used in all future games. Let us not repress innovation and ingenuity, let alone faithfulness to Tolkien. >>>Why not? That sort of thing *did* happen on occasion in the First >>>Age. Noldorin warriors going postal and hacking people apart--yes, >>>that does sound vaguely familiar. >> >>Let me put it this way: if you're going on an adventure with a Noldorin >>warrior and you're just a Hobbit shoemaker, whom do you think is going to >>get the most kills, and whom is most likely to get killed? > >Hobbit shoemakers don't go on adventures. They make shoes for >Noldorin warriors, who repay them by going on adventures and >eliminating dragons for them. Really? I could think of a few shoemakers who would go on adventures -- especially if Orcs came and ravaged the towns they lived in. >Anyway, this isn't a problem with the First Age as such--Noldorin >warriors would be more effective in battle than Hobbit farmers even in >the Third Age. I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't arguing against a First Age campaign. That simply won't ever happen. >Actually, since Tolkien Enterprises only owns the rights for _The >Hobbit_ and LOTR, I suppose the legal means of creating an authorized >First Age game would involve talking to Christopher Tolkien and his >battalion of lawyers. The Tolkien Estate, of which Christopher is part owner, I believe. The administrator is an attorney (or law firm) in London. However, I've been told the Tolkien Estate declines all licensing arrangements except for publishing the books. >>anything but the Third Age. Saul Zaentz only controls the >>marketing/merchandising rights pertaining to the "movie rights" for "The >>Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" (both names referring to film >>production entities). He has pushed the envelope considerably, but he >>cannot license anything to do with material which was not published in THE >>HOBBIT and/or THE LORD OF THE RINGS. There is too little information in >>these books concerning the First Age. > >Right, a game based entirely on Bilbo's "Song of Earendil". That >would be interesting. And quite limiting, or quite different. They would have to eschew everything in THE SILMARILLION which isn't accurately portrayed in THE LORD OF THE RINGS -- assuming they could do it anyway. >>The First Age would actually be a much more playable setting than the Third >>Age or early Fourth Age. > >That's what I'm trying to say. Ah. I think maybe I was misunderstanding you, then. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Webmaster@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7shqi0$1uc_028@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37e9d77b.74380283@news.pc-intouch.com> <7scrt2$is_008@Org.xenite.org> <37eb0178.150677066@news.pc-intouch.com> <7sf3he$3pg_054@Org.xenite.org> <37eb1907.156708467@news.pc-intouch.com> <7sgo5h$304_016@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 41 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 06:36:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.203 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938241426 209.181.118.203 (Sat, 25 Sep 1999 01:37:06 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 01:37:06 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , mark@pc-intouch.com wrote: >On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 20:49:53 GMT, Michael Martinez > wrote: > >>>Hobbit shoemakers don't go on adventures. They make shoes for >>>Noldorin warriors, who repay them by going on adventures and >>>eliminating dragons for them. >> >>Really? I could think of a few shoemakers who would go on adventures -- >>especially if Orcs came and ravaged the towns they lived in. > >Sure, they might defend themselves if someone attacked them, but they >shouldn't expect to last long. They're not trained to fight. Nor is there any indication that Bilbo and Frodo were trained to fight. These are the classic gentleman hobbit adventurers. It would be a far greater travesty for a game to continue that ridiculously stupid tradition of making hobbits into good thieves (Bilbo was an awful thief, even with the Ring). > >They made a licensing arrangement with Saul Zaentz, didn't they? Their >policy to date, in general, has been to decline other licensing >arrangements. They could still license the rights to _The Silmarillion_ >and other stuff to anyone. No. J.R.R. Tolkien himself SOLD the movie rights (irrevocably -- no licensing agreement at all). This was quite common back then. I'm not sure how many hands the rights passed through to end up in Zaentz' possession. I have been told by several people that Tolkien's family has no intention of ever selling the rights to their father's other works. We shall have to wait until they enter the public domain to see any commercial projects developed out them. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Jason Mulligan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:19:10 +1000 Organization: The University of Newcastle Lines: 67 Message-ID: <37ED829E.D77FD93B@studentmail.newcastle.edu.au> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7scgla$15s_014@Org.xenite.org> <7sdha9$6p6$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7sdp4n$cc_024@Org.xenite.org> <7sdpvq$4e4$1@netnews.upenn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: c52h1-asy21.newcastle.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uow.edu.au!news.usyd.edu.au!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!not-for-mail Robert Barrett wrote: > > Michael Martinez (Michael@xenite.org) wrote: > > : Nonetheless, it's incorrect to assume that what happened to one company > : will happen to another. Companies go through bankruptcy all the time. > : It's a part of the business world. Some companies never go through it, > : some companies do. The bankruptcy serves to get the creditors off the > : companies' backs and give them a chance to work out a repayment plan. > > : Refinancing to bring in new capital is often a part of the process. > > Good points, Michael. I'll grant them. > > That said, though, I still have no problem with Tolkien Enterprises > yanking the license in this situation. MERP was effectively a dead game > long before the bankruptcy of this summer. Moreoever, it wasn't even a > good game. Well, I certainly liked the game. Although the magic system should have emphasised the types of magic that are prevalent in most fantasy games. When MERP appeared, it was obviously tailored to appeal to both Tolkien fans and D&D players (which was about the only big fantasy game at the time). Rolemaster itself was the rule system thought up by the group (who became ICE) when they wanted something better to run their old AD&D Middle Earth campaigns. So its pretty natural that the magic system feels a bit like Gygax's. > A magic system that resembled D&D far more than it did > Tolkien, adventure scenarios which rarely amounted to more than dungeon > crawls, Out of all the publsied scenario's I've played I cant think of too many dungeon crawls. a bad decision to limit MERP characters to 10th level (in the > hopes that players would go onto Rolemaster), unwise product decisions > (the last MERP to come out was a book filled with lists and lists of > healing herbs). Which was an excellent sourcebook. The MERP sourcebooks are among the best I've seen for any game. I'm amazed at the quality of the freelancers ICE managed to get on board. The problem MERP suffered from was both the decline of roleplaying generally and the changes in the types of games new players were after. That where all the mechanically simple games came about. Another thing which ICE spoke about regularly was the fact that the only sourcebooks that sold any numbers were those that detailed those areas of Middle Earth that were familiar to Tolkien readers. This in the end caused the many works in progress to be halted (although some will still see print elsewhere), like sourceboosk detailing Lindon, the Sea of Rhun, Khand, and a few other places that have slipped my mind. > I don't think ICE had what it took to compete with RPGs > in the 1990s, and I think Tolkien will be better served by another > company. We'll probably see hasbro pickup the license and turn it into a D&D world. They are about the only company with the resources. > ICE's Kin-Strife campaign book was the right idea, but > it came out too late and was still too saddled with their mania for > building diagrams and lists. Let's what what someone else can do. Each to their own I guess....which in the end proved most unfortunate for me. ###### From: "M Phillips" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Lines: 51 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 08:23:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.8.89.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: nnrp3.clara.net 938420623 195.8.89.67 (Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:23:43 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:23:43 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp3.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org... > Followups redirected to rec.arts.books.tolkien. > > This is a black day for Tolkien fandom, in my opinion. > At the same time, Iron Crown Enterprises has announced they are severing > their relationship with Tolkien Enterprises (or perhaps the axe fell the > other way). ICE is no longer processing orders for MERP or ME:TW or any > other Middle-earth-related product lines they had. > Iron Crown have gone into Chapter 11 bankruptcy, so don't read anything sinister into it. > I've suspected for some time, based on things I've been told in private, > that radical changes were coming, but I rather hoped the news wouldn't > break on the 22nd. There were so many people hoping for good news on Bilbo > and Frodo's birthday that I guess it was almost inevitable things would > turn sour. > > > As for Iron Crown Enterprises, I'd heard that their sales were declining. > That spelled almost certain death for their Middle-earth product lines. The constant changes in sales staff didn't help. > The timing of these announcements was, IMO, insensitive, and perhaps could > not have been avoided, but I rather suspect no effort was made to avoid it. In Iron Crown's case, they went bankrupt some time ago, so there's no insensitivity. I think you're looking for conspiracy when, in ICE's case, it's cock-up. I should know, they are/were a supplier of mine, and I've been left with supply problems. I don't know about the Sierra lot, but I'd say that if they have the rights to produce a Tolkien game, and they've dropped it now, they need their heads examined. I'm amazed that there aren't whole ranges of games. -- Martin Phillips, Danbury Mint ###### From: "M Phillips" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7scgla$15s_014@Org.xenite.org> Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:13:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.8.86.227 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: nnrp4.clara.net 938437999 195.8.86.227 (Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:13:19 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:13:19 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!carrier1.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp4.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7scgla$15s_014@Org.xenite.org... > In article <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote: > > > >Well, ICE lost the Middle Earth license b/c they're in Chapter 11 > >bankruptcy at the moment. > They've been in Chapter 11 for a while, and if anything, that action has > stabilized their cash flow (which is one of the benefits of going through > bankruptcy for a business). > I'm a big customer (trade) of ICE, and if Chapter 11 is helpful, why can't they supply me with the product I'm desperate for. I'm afraid that you seem to be trying to build a case against Tolkien Enterprises when there isn't one. > I don't see the connection between the bankruptcy and the license loss. It's part of any license agreement that the license reverts if the licensee goes bust. Otherwise Chapter 11 would allow the licensee to trade and not pay royalties. In teh real world of business, that isn't on. >My suspicion is that Tolkien Enterprises was not satisfied with the age-old > revenue stream (it was declining anyway) and they decided to see if they > could work a better deal with a larger company that would be looking at the > movies and thinking, "Hm...timing". I'm afraid that's nonsense too. TE have got a major problem trying to sort out the ICE mess - I know as I'm trying to get to some of the items. You're looking for a conspiracy when there isn't one. ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 02:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 17 Message-ID: <10467-37F06148-138@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <7shqi0$1uc_028@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAlPmgl6jK0BruUNBwxJqhfPZuMiUCFQCGnHznkZhD1udWOCskyo+5+2YkTw== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >It would be a far greater travesty for a >game to continue that ridiculously stupid >tradition of making hobbits into good >thieves (Bilbo was an awful thief, even >with the Ring). I assume you're talking about ICE rules for MERP here. If so, I'm guessing the reason they made hobbit good thieves wasn't based on anything Tolkien wrote, but rather as an imitation of D&D rules. I would call this a travesty indeed, considering that D&D, especially rules on races like elves dwarves and halflings, borrows heavily from Tolkien's work --Dave ###### From: "Jon Tullett" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 07:25:51 +0200 Organization: An Internet Solution Customer Lines: 66 Message-ID: <7spjfq$8r1$1@news.is.co.za> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: global-pool75.tml.co.za X-Trace: news.is.co.za 938496314 9057 196.36.52.139 (28 Sep 1999 05:25:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@is.co.za NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 1999 05:25:14 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.belnet.be!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!uunet!ams.uu.net!iafrica.com!feeder.is.co.za!news.is.co.za!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org... > As for Iron Crown Enterprises, I'd heard that their sales were declining. > That spelled almost certain death for their Middle-earth product lines. At > some point someone was going to make an inevitable business decision. ICE > has been heavily criticized by Tolkien fandom through the years for not > being faithful to Tolkien, but they started their work 18 years ago, long > before we knew most of what we now know about Middle-earth. Their initial > efforts set them on a path which had to be followed, and I've always felt > they should be given a little slack. Every MERP module I ever read said up > front that the first authority on Middle-earth was J.R.R. Tolkien and that > gamers should read the books. ICE filed chapter 11 bankrupcy a short while ago, and as per normal procedure, licenses were withdrawn. Tolkien Enterprises can't be blamed for doing so, it's just the way it works. I'm glad they stuck with ICE rather than selling out...can you imagine what TSR (now WoTC) would have done with Middle Earth? :> The ICE MERP modules were pretty damn good, for the most part, and I'll be sorry to see the product line discontinue. That said, ICE doesn't have any intention (I gather) of trying to recover the Tolkien license; they are focusing on a game-world of their own. > Undoubtedly Tolkien Enterprises is interested in placing the RPG license in > other hands, assuming there is a viable market for it. I'm not so sure > myself. There are two components to gaming; the rules, and the world. Lately, the world has become more important than the rules; gamers (especially inexperienced ones) are happy with makeshift rules so long as they have a rich environment spoonfed to them. Middle-earth is perfect for this type of gaming, and there's a huge opportunity for TE here. ICE, on the other hand, focus almost completely on their rules system (Rolemaster), and not on gaming environments per se. Given that, I don't think it was a very satisfying relationship on either side the last few years. I'd like to see MERP world material /without/ an associated RPG system; use GURPS, Rolemaster, hell, use AD&D if you want. That doesn't matter. The richness, completeness and complexity of Middle-earth is what makes it so attractive to a gamer. > The timing of these announcements was, IMO, insensitive, and perhaps could > not have been avoided, but I rather suspect no effort was made to avoid it. Not in ICE's case, unfortunately. Bankruptcy waits for no man :) > The suits at Sierra probably had no clue as to the significance of > September 22 for Tolkien fans. I say, let them live in infamy and give the > chance to someone else with greater appreciation for Tolkien. Having read reports by some of the game developers who got the axe, as it were, it's pretty clear that Sierra had no intention of producing a game that was true to the books, so it's probably for the best. Crap timing, but for the best. -Jon ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7spu30$tk_030@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 16 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:26:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.146 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938507191 207.224.147.146 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:26:31 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:26:31 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , "M Phillips" wrote: >> The timing of these announcements was, IMO, insensitive, and perhaps could >> not have been avoided, but I rather suspect no effort was made to avoid >it. > >In Iron Crown's case, they went bankrupt some time ago, so there's no >insensitivity. I think you're looking for conspiracy You're unnecessarily imagining things. The timing of the announcements (September 21, in fact) was indeed insensitive. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7spu9a$tk_032@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7scgla$15s_014@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 57 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:29:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.146 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938507392 207.224.147.146 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:29:52 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:29:52 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , "M Phillips" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message >news:7scgla$15s_014@Org.xenite.org... >> In article <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, >>rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote: >> > >> >Well, ICE lost the Middle Earth license b/c they're in Chapter 11 >> >bankruptcy at the moment. > >> They've been in Chapter 11 for a while, and if anything, that action has >> stabilized their cash flow (which is one of the benefits of going through >> bankruptcy for a business). >> > >I'm a big customer (trade) of ICE, and if Chapter 11 is helpful, why can't >they supply me with the product I'm desperate for. I'm afraid that you seem >to be trying to build a case against Tolkien Enterprises when there isn't >one. No, I'm not making any cases against Tolkien Enterprises at all. >> I don't see the connection between the bankruptcy and the license loss. > >It's part of any license agreement that the license reverts if the licensee >goes bust. Otherwise Chapter 11 would allow the licensee to trade and not >pay royalties. In teh real world of business, that isn't on. This is irrelevant. Iron Crown Enterprises did not go bust. They entered bankruptcy to avoid that. >>My suspicion is that Tolkien Enterprises was not satisfied with the >>age-old revenue stream (it was declining anyway) and they decided to >>see if they could work a better deal with a larger company that would >>be looking at the movies and thinking, "Hm...timing". > >I'm afraid that's nonsense too... No, it's actually based on things I don't care to repeat, as it's still just speculative. >...TE have got a major problem trying to sort out the ICE mess - I know as >I'm trying to get to some of the items. You're looking for a conspiracy > when there isn't one. No, you're just imagining conspiracy theories where none have been advanced or contemplated. Tolkien Enterprises was in a position to make a marketing-oriented business decision. All inferences concern whether they did so -- your conspiracy nonsense has no place in this thread. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7spup6$tk_034@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <7spjfq$8r1$1@news.is.co.za> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 38 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:37:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.146 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938507901 207.224.147.146 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:38:21 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:38:21 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7spjfq$8r1$1@news.is.co.za>, "Jon Tullett" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message >news:7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org... >> As for Iron Crown Enterprises, I'd heard that their sales were declining. >> That spelled almost certain death for their Middle-earth product lines. >> At some point someone was going to make an inevitable business decision. >> ICE has been heavily criticized by Tolkien fandom through the years for >> not being faithful to Tolkien, but they started their work 18 years ago, >> long before we knew most of what we now know about Middle-earth. Their >> initial efforts set them on a path which had to be followed, and I've >> always felt they should be given a little slack. Every MERP module I >> ever read said up front that the first authority on Middle-earth was >> J.R.R. Tolkien and that gamers should read the books. > >ICE filed chapter 11 bankrupcy a short while ago, and as per normal >procedure, licenses were withdrawn. Tolkien Enterprises can't be blamed for >doing so, it's just the way it works. It's funny how most companies that go through Chapter 11 DON'T lose their marketing licenses. Iron Crown Enterprises was retrenching on the MERP line long before they filed for banrkruptcy. I know because I've been in contact with MERP module writers. I've believed the end was inevitable for a long time now. The bankruptcy may or may not have been the final straw. >That said, ICE doesn't have any intention (I gather) of trying to recover >the Tolkien license; they are focusing on a game-world of their own. They are going where they perceive the money to be. Interest in MERP began dropping off a long time ago. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> References: <7shqi0$1uc_028@Org.xenite.org> <10467-37F06148-138@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 29 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:40:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.146 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938508028 207.224.147.146 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:40:28 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:40:28 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <10467-37F06148-138@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >>It would be a far greater travesty for a >>game to continue that ridiculously stupid >>tradition of making hobbits into good >>thieves (Bilbo was an awful thief, even >>with the Ring). > >I assume you're talking about ICE rules for MERP here. If so, I'm >guessing the reason they made hobbit good thieves wasn't based on >anything Tolkien wrote, but rather as an imitation of D&D rules. I >would call this a travesty indeed, considering that D&D, especially >rules on races like elves dwarves and halflings, borrows heavily from >Tolkien's work That comment was directed toward Sierra. And I was not talking about ICE in particular -- every game system I've looked at which had hobbits in some incarnation made them into thieves. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "M Phillips" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7scgla$15s_014@Org.xenite.org> <7spu9a$tk_032@Org.xenite.org> Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:02:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.8.89.3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: nnrp3.clara.net 938534543 195.8.89.3 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 17:02:23 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 17:02:23 BST Lines: 71 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp3.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7spu9a$tk_032@Org.xenite.org... > In article , "M Phillips" wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote in message > >news:7scgla$15s_014@Org.xenite.org... > >> In article <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, > >>rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu (Robert Barrett) wrote: > >> > > >> I don't see the connection between the bankruptcy and the license loss. > > > >It's part of any license agreement that the license reverts if the licensee > >goes bust. Otherwise Chapter 11 would allow the licensee to trade and not > >pay royalties. In teh real world of business, that isn't on. > > This is irrelevant. Iron Crown Enterprises did not go bust. They entered > bankruptcy to avoid that. The terms of the licences are clear - I'm a Tolkien licensee, so I know for a fact. If a company enters bankruptcy of any kind (Ch 11 or not) the license automatically reverts to TE. > >>My suspicion is that Tolkien Enterprises was not satisfied with the > >>age-old revenue stream (it was declining anyway) and they decided to > >>see if they could work a better deal with a larger company that would > >>be looking at the movies and thinking, "Hm...timing". > > > >I'm afraid that's nonsense too... > > No, it's actually based on things I don't care to repeat, as it's still > just speculative. > > No, you're just imagining conspiracy theories where none have been advanced > or contemplated. Your comment above this quote ('My suspicion is that ...') contradicts what you say. > > Tolkien Enterprises was in a position to make a marketing-oriented business > decision. All inferences concern whether they did so -- your conspiracy > nonsense has no place in this thread. I didn't imply a conspiracy - you seemed to be - I said you seem to think TE have ulterior motives. I was talking from first-hand experience, as one of the biggest TE licensees). TE do a good job, and are a pleasure to work with (I wish I could say that of most of the other 150+ licensors I work with). They don't give Tolkien the hard-sell, but seem to deal with selected people. If they were interested in revenue stream alone, they'd behave in a very different way. I can talk about facts and real business dealings. Your cryptic allusions could be based on fact, or not. If they are, I've got no problem with TE getting video games of LOTR out in the market - it's amazing that there isn't one already. To hell with Tolkien purists, who think the books are too good for the public - LOTR is the best-selling novel ever, so I'd like to see it introduced to new generations of readers through a game (as the average schoolkid these days doesn't read novels, there's just a chance it may get some to read the book). Rant over. Time to go back to the real world. Martin ###### From: "M Phillips" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <7spu30$tk_030@Org.xenite.org> Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:02:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.8.89.3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: nnrp3.clara.net 938534543 195.8.89.3 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 17:02:23 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 17:02:23 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp3.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7spu30$tk_030@Org.xenite.org... > In article , "M Phillips" wrote: > >> The timing of these announcements was, IMO, insensitive, and perhaps could > >> not have been avoided, but I rather suspect no effort was made to avoid > >it. > > > >In Iron Crown's case, they went bankrupt some time ago, so there's no > >insensitivity. I think you're looking for conspiracy > > You're unnecessarily imagining things. The timing of the announcements > (September 21, in fact) was indeed insensitive. > The bankruptcy of Iron Crown was announced weeks ago. When a company goes into Ch 11, it has to be announced straight away. September 21st or 22nd has nothing to do with the real world, and the law. For Christs sake, people have lost their jobs and all you worry about is the date of the announcement. You need to get a sense of proportion. ###### From: "M Phillips" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <7spjfq$8r1$1@news.is.co.za> <7spup6$tk_034@Org.xenite.org> Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:04:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.8.89.3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: nnrp3.clara.net 938534662 195.8.89.3 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 17:04:22 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 17:04:22 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp3.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7spup6$tk_034@Org.xenite.org... > In article <7spjfq$8r1$1@news.is.co.za>, "Jon Tullett" wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote in message > >news:7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org... > It's funny how most companies that go through Chapter 11 DON'T lose their > marketing licenses. > They do - every single one. Some renegotiate a new license, but they all lose them. What precisely is your experience of licenses and business? Have you ever read these contracts? ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: 28 Sep 1999 23:51:11 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 34 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6u1zbiemcw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <7spjfq$8r1$1@news.is.co.za> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "Jon Tullett" writes: > > There are two components to gaming; the rules, and the world. Yes. And the world does count more. That is where the action is. The rules are just there to give it shape. Extreme case is LARP, where one ditches rules entirely for physically simulated fights. > Middle-earth is perfect for this type of gaming, Absolutely. It is what got me into RPG. > I'd like to see MERP world material /without/ an associated RPG system; use > GURPS, Rolemaster, hell, use AD&D if you want. The group I am in does exactly that. ME world, MeRP stories (and others) and RuneQuest rules. No need for any specially made material, just an GM who likes to experiment a bit. Actually that is the one thing that I dislike on many gamers: the "buying" attitude. Do-it-yourself is a lot more fun. > That doesn't matter. The > richness, completeness and complexity of Middle-earth is what makes it so > attractive to a gamer. Definitely. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7srhp4$1pg_022@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <7spu30$tk_030@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 23:08:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.96 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938560126 209.181.118.96 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:08:46 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:08:46 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , "M Phillips" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message >news:7spu30$tk_030@Org.xenite.org... >> >> You're unnecessarily imagining things. The timing of the announcements >> (September 21, in fact) was indeed insensitive. >> > > >The bankruptcy of Iron Crown was announced weeks ago. The discontinuation of the MERP product line was not. You need to pay attention to what I've been writing, and not dredge up irrelevancies, if you're going to discuss what I've written with me. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sri1r$1pg_024@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7scgla$15s_014@Org.xenite.org> <7spu9a$tk_032@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 60 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 23:12:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.96 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938560406 209.181.118.96 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:13:26 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:13:26 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , "M Phillips" wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote in message >news:7spu9a$tk_032@Org.xenite.org... >> This is irrelevant. Iron Crown Enterprises did not go bust. They entered >> bankruptcy to avoid that. > >The terms of the licences are clear - I'm a Tolkien licensee, so I know for >a fact. If a company enters bankruptcy of any kind (Ch 11 or not) the >license automatically reverts to TE. You should have said that YOUR license said that in the first place. No two license agreements are the same, and other companies have NOT lost their merchandising licenses when going into bankruptcy. Tolkien Enterprises may or may not have enacted that restriction across all its licenses, but they are only one company out of many. ICE's MERP line was in serious decline for a long time. The loss of the license may or may not have been due to the bankruptcy. It's still up to TE to decide whether to enforce the agreememnt. Unless you have some inside information you can share, you're not saying anything at all. >> >>My suspicion is that Tolkien Enterprises was not satisfied with the >> >>age-old revenue stream (it was declining anyway) and they decided to >> >>see if they could work a better deal with a larger company that would >> >>be looking at the movies and thinking, "Hm...timing". >> > >> >I'm afraid that's nonsense too... >> >> No, it's actually based on things I don't care to repeat, as it's still >> just speculative. > >> No, you're just imagining conspiracy theories where none have been >> advanced or contemplated. > >Your comment above this quote ('My suspicion is that ...') contradicts what >you say. No, it's simply addressing a different issue. Tolkien Enterprises doesn't have to enforce their merchandising agreement and yank the license if they don't want to. >> Tolkien Enterprises was in a position to make a marketing-oriented >> business decision. All inferences concern whether they did so -- your conspiracy >> nonsense has no place in this thread. > >I didn't imply a conspiracy - you seemed to be [big snip] No, I didn't imply anything. I merely pointed out that two unhappy announcements were made on the same day for different reasons and you cooked up the consipiracy thing without any help from me. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sri3d$1pg_026@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <7spjfq$8r1$1@news.is.co.za> <7spup6$tk_034@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 24 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 23:13:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.96 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938560455 209.181.118.96 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:14:15 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:14:15 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , "M Phillips" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message >news:7spup6$tk_034@Org.xenite.org... >> In article <7spjfq$8r1$1@news.is.co.za>, "Jon Tullett" >>wrote: >> >Michael Martinez wrote in message >> >news:7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org... > >> It's funny how most companies that go through Chapter 11 DON'T lose their >> marketing licenses. > >They do - every single one. Some renegotiate a new license, but they all >lose them. What precisely is your experience of licenses and business? Have >you ever read these contracts? I did some checkin of recent bankruptcies before posting that statement. NO loss of licenses. Period. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 23:32:30 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 22 Message-ID: <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQqZn7rtvkYqXn+2H+c7xSgDxKK4AIVAI8WE/LKcnK2xBe9Ff7Oy96Oul5A Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.new-york.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >That comment was directed toward >Sierra. And I was not talking about ICE >in particular -- every game system I've >looked at which had hobbits in some >incarnation made them into thieves. So were talking about Sierra's game instead of ICE. That clears some things up for me, as your original post confused me a little. And you're right about hobbit/halfling thieves. Like I said, I think it comes from a nod to Tolkien and The Hobbit. Course, Bilbo wasn't the greatest thief that ever lived, in fact, as a well-to-do hobbit, he no reason to turn to theivery. That doesn't mean that hoobits/halflings as a whole are indisposed toward theivery. Hobbits were described in LotR and the Hobbit as being somewhat stealthy. I would imagine that a hobbit, if he really wanted to could become a fairly competent thief (Ted Sandyman might fit the part, if he weren't such a worthless sack of dung). It's also somewhat of a racial stereotype as well: hobbits/halflings are most often presented as thieves, elves as wizards and dwarves as warriors. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 28 Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:57:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.195 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938692682 207.224.149.195 (Thu, 30 Sep 1999 06:58:02 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 06:58:02 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: >So were talking about Sierra's game instead of ICE. That clears some >things up for me, as your original post confused me a little. And >you're right about hobbit/halfling thieves. Like I said, I think it >comes from a nod to Tolkien and The Hobbit. Course, Bilbo wasn't the >greatest thief that ever lived, in fact, as a well-to-do hobbit, he no >reason to turn to theivery. That doesn't mean that hoobits/halflings as >a whole are indisposed toward theivery. Hobbits were described in LotR >and the Hobbit as being somewhat stealthy. I would imagine that a >hobbit, if he really wanted to could become a fairly competent thief >(Ted Sandyman might fit the part, if he weren't such a worthless sack of >dung). It's also somewhat of a racial stereotype as well: >hobbits/halflings are most often presented as thieves, elves as wizards >and dwarves as warriors. Shire hobbits were not disposed toward thievery, nor excessive drinking (though I do not say getting drunk), nor toward beating their children, nor toward many other vices. That said, they had their own scandals and such. But to represent hobbits as being prone to thievery or even especially good at it is completely contrary to what Tolkien wrote of them. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: colinr@toliman.uio.no (Colin Rosenthal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: 30 Sep 1999 12:56:59 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 15 Message-ID: <7svmmr$31q$1@readme.uio.no> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: colin.rosenthal@astro.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Host: toliman.uio.no User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!colinr On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:02:59 +0100, Andrew Wells wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org>... >>Shire hobbits were not disposed toward thievery, nor excessive drinking >>(though I do not say getting drunk), nor toward beating their children, nor >>toward many other vices. > >How do we _know_ that they weren't disposed towards beating their children? Or other people's children, Farmer Maggot. -- Colin Rosenthal Astrophysics Institute University of Oslo ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:02:59 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.56.123.105 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 938692956 212.56.123.105 (Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:02:36 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:02:36 BST Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!easynet-tele!easynet.net!btnet-feed2!newreader.ukcore.bt.net!btnet-feed1!btnet!landlord!stones.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org>... >Shire hobbits were not disposed toward thievery, nor excessive drinking >(though I do not say getting drunk), nor toward beating their children, nor >toward many other vices. How do we _know_ that they weren't disposed towards beating their children? Andrew -- Andrew Wells Do I have to tell you what to change in the address? Don't spam me, spam abuse@force9.net ###### From: wellinghall@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 17:39:40 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <7t078p$bbc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> <7svmmr$31q$1@readme.uio.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.166.139.130 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Sep 30 17:39:40 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; MSN 2.5; MSN 2.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x38.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.166.139.130 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDwellinghall Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <7svmmr$31q$1@readme.uio.no>, colin.rosenthal@astro.uio.no wrote: > On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:02:59 +0100, > Andrew Wells wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote in message <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org>... > >>Shire hobbits were not disposed toward thievery, nor excessive drinking > >>(though I do not say getting drunk), nor toward beating their children, nor > >>toward many other vices. > > > >How do we _know_ that they weren't disposed towards beating their children? > > Or other people's children, Farmer Maggot. True, true Andrew Wells > > -- > Colin Rosenthal > Astrophysics Institute > University of Oslo > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: kurgan@modeemi.cs.tut.fi (Jouni Karhu) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:33:25 GMT Organization: Legion of Immortals Lines: 15 Message-ID: <37f3d6f5.1321940@news.cc.tut.fi> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: a34c.mtalo.ton.tut.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: baker.cc.tut.fi 938727321 5366 193.166.88.122 (30 Sep 1999 21:35:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Sep 1999 21:35:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!not-for-mail "Andrew Wells" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org>... >>Shire hobbits were not disposed toward thievery, nor excessive drinking >>(though I do not say getting drunk), nor toward beating their children, nor >>toward many other vices. > >How do we _know_ that they weren't disposed towards beating their children? I believe it goes something like this: beating of children is not mentioned anywhere in the text. -- 'I have something to say! | 'The Immoral Immortal' \o JJ Karhu It is better to burn out, | -=========================OxxxxxxxxxxxO than to fade away!' | kurgan@modeemi.cs.tut.fi /o ###### From: kurgan@modeemi.cs.tut.fi (Jouni Karhu) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:35:17 GMT Organization: Legion of Immortals Lines: 13 Message-ID: <37f4d72d.1377240@news.cc.tut.fi> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: a34c.mtalo.ton.tut.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: baker.cc.tut.fi 938727434 5366 193.166.88.122 (30 Sep 1999 21:37:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Sep 1999 21:37:14 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!not-for-mail Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >But to represent hobbits as being prone to thievery or even especially good >at it is completely contrary to what Tolkien wrote of them. I wouldn't go as far as to say _completely contrary_; one would think that small size, nimble fingers, a natural ability to move silently and hide would all go a long way towards making hobbits good thieves. If they happened to choose to become thieves, that is. -- 'I have something to say! | 'The Immoral Immortal' \o JJ Karhu It is better to burn out, | -=========================OxxxxxxxxxxxO than to fade away!' | kurgan@modeemi.cs.tut.fi /o ###### From: kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: 30 Sep 1999 22:22:25 GMT Organization: Department of Computer Science, LSU, Baton Rouge Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7t0nr1$10oe$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: oldbit.csc.lsu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!gatech!juniper.cis.uab.edu!cis.uab.edu!news.lsu.edu!kuo In article <7svj7m$2is_024@org.xenite.org>, Michael Martinez wrote: >Shire hobbits were not disposed toward thievery, nor excessive drinking >(though I do not say getting drunk), nor toward beating their children, nor >toward many other vices. That said, they had their own scandals and such. >But to represent hobbits as being prone to thievery or even especially good >at it is completely contrary to what Tolkien wrote of them. I dunno--Bilbo was a thief, and a rather good one at that, even if he had a little magic help. Frodo was a thief (the mushrooms). Lobellia was a thief (silver spoons). A bunch of Bilbo's guests either stole stuff or had regular habits of failing to return them. And of course the whole treasure hunt at Bag End was basically an exercise in mass thievery. I'd say Tolkien's writings were consistent with the premise that hobbits were prone to thievery. -- _____ Isaac Kuo kuo@bit.csc.lsu.edu http://www.csc.lsu.edu/~kuo __|_)o(_|__ ICQ 29055726 /___________\ "Mari-san... Yokatta... \=\)-----(/=/ ...Yokatta go-buji de..." - Karigari Hiroshi ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 24 Message-ID: <22495-37F42C61-11@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQSUbIFbQikPEsWbUnCABB2NLSgqwIUYEHMQXVtDa9+7e96kskw34uPKd4= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >But to represent hobbits as being prone >to thievery or even especially good at it >is completely contrary to what Tolkien >wrote of them. I do have to agree somewhat. The ORIGINAL conception of hobbits, that is to say, Tolkien's hobbits of ME did not seem to be very disposed to theivery. The culture of the Shire certainly seems to be a very cooperative one, in which case wide spread theivery would probably be somewhat rare. Certainly there are greedy, selfish and even ambitious hobbits -- the Sackville-Bagginses come to mind. But hobbits don't seem to be as possessive as humans or even dwarves; Lobelia stole Bilbo's spoons, but he didn't bother with chasing her to the ends of the earth; instead he bided his time, and gave her another set of spoons as her "inheritance" (which she very well understood the meaning of). Gandalf didn't intend Bilbo to be a burglar. He only came up with the burglar bit because Thorin, Balin and Gloin were being very obtuse (and we all know how patient Gandalf can be). In the end, Bilbo's success wasn't because of his thieving abilities, but rather his optimism, and his refusal to give up. ###### From: colinr@toliman.uio.no (Colin Rosenthal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: 1 Oct 1999 06:57:32 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7t1m0s$qb4$4@readme.uio.no> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> <37f3d6f5.1321940@news.cc.tut.fi> Reply-To: colin.rosenthal@astro.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Host: toliman.uio.no User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-feed.ifi.uio.no!Norway.EU.net!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!colinr On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:33:25 GMT, Jouni Karhu wrote: >"Andrew Wells" wrote: >>Michael Martinez wrote in message <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org>... >>>Shire hobbits were not disposed toward thievery, nor excessive drinking >>>(though I do not say getting drunk), nor toward beating their children, nor >>>toward many other vices. >> >>How do we _know_ that they weren't disposed towards beating their children? > >I believe it goes something like this: beating of children is not >mentioned anywhere in the text. Except that it is. Maggot beat young Frodo. -- Colin Rosenthal Astrophysics Institute University of Oslo ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> <37f3d6f5.1321940@news.cc.tut.fi> Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 08:20:00 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.56.95.142 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 938762377 212.56.95.142 (Fri, 01 Oct 1999 08:19:37 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 08:19:37 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!landlord!stones.POSTED!not-for-mail Jouni Karhu wrote in message <37f3d6f5.1321940@news.cc.tut.fi>... >"Andrew Wells" wrote: >>Michael Martinez wrote in message <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org>... >>>Shire hobbits were not disposed toward thievery, nor excessive drinking >>>(though I do not say getting drunk), nor toward beating their children, nor >>>toward many other vices. >> >>How do we _know_ that they weren't disposed towards beating their children? > >I believe it goes something like this: beating of children is not >mentioned anywhere in the text. So? Neither is going to the bathroom (well, not very often), but we don't doubt that they all did it, every day. (Note: I don't really believe that most hobbits beat their children very often; but we are given no evidence to the contrary, that I can see). Andrew -- Andrew Wells Do I have to tell you what to change in the address? Don't spam me, spam abuse@force9.net ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> <37f3d6f5.1321940@news.cc.tut.fi> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 9 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 02:49:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 938832572 207.212.198.18 (Fri, 01 Oct 1999 19:49:32 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 19:49:32 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Fri, 1 Oct 1999 08:20:00 +0100, Andrew Wells wrote: >(Note: I don't really believe that most hobbits beat their children very >often; but we are given no evidence to the contrary, that I can see). I think the low incidence of violent crime (as indicated by the degree of police protection we see in the Shire) is a good indication to the contrary. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7t45ru$16g_012@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 05:40:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.130 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938842860 209.181.118.130 (Sat, 02 Oct 1999 00:41:00 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 00:41:00 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , "Andrew Wells" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org>... >>Shire hobbits were not disposed toward thievery, nor excessive drinking >>(though I do not say getting drunk), nor toward beating their children, nor >>toward many other vices. > >How do we _know_ that they weren't disposed towards beating their children? Well, J.R.R. Tolkien said, "They did not beat their children", but I suppose that counts for nothing in the pursuit of True Understanding and Interpretation. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7t45vi$16g_014@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> <7svmmr$31q$1@readme.uio.no> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 05:42:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.130 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938842976 209.181.118.130 (Sat, 02 Oct 1999 00:42:56 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 00:42:56 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7svmmr$31q$1@readme.uio.no>, colin.rosenthal@astro.uio.no wrote: >On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:02:59 +0100, >Andrew Wells wrote: >>Michael Martinez wrote in message <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org>... >>>Shire hobbits were not disposed toward thievery, nor excessive drinking >>>(though I do not say getting drunk), nor toward beating their children, nor >>>toward many other vices. >> >>How do we _know_ that they weren't disposed towards beating their children? > >Or other people's children, Farmer Maggot. What Farmer Maggot did was beat (one time) a HABITUAL thief and tresspasser, which act was rather merciful compared to the way some cultures treat them. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7t460a$16g_016@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> <37f3d6f5.1321940@news.cc.tut.fi> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 05:42:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.130 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938843000 209.181.118.130 (Sat, 02 Oct 1999 00:43:20 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 00:43:20 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37f3d6f5.1321940@news.cc.tut.fi>, kurgan@modeemi.cs.tut.fi (Jouni Karhu) wrote: >"Andrew Wells" wrote: >>Michael Martinez wrote in message <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org>... >>>Shire hobbits were not disposed toward thievery, nor excessive drinking >>>(though I do not say getting drunk), nor toward beating their children, nor >>>toward many other vices. >> >>How do we _know_ that they weren't disposed towards beating their children? > >I believe it goes something like this: beating of children is not >mentioned anywhere in the text. Nope. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7t462n$16g_018@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> <37f4d72d.1377240@news.cc.tut.fi> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 05:43:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.130 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938843077 209.181.118.130 (Sat, 02 Oct 1999 00:44:37 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 00:44:37 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37f4d72d.1377240@news.cc.tut.fi>, kurgan@modeemi.cs.tut.fi (Jouni Karhu) wrote: >Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >>But to represent hobbits as being prone to thievery or even especially good >>at it is completely contrary to what Tolkien wrote of them. > >I wouldn't go as far as to say _completely contrary_; I would. I did, in fact. Hobbits make terrible thieves. The only Hobbit thief examples we know of (Bilbo and Frodo) get caught. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7t4684$16g_020@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@org.xenite.org> <7t0nr1$10oe$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 30 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 05:46:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.130 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938843250 209.181.118.130 (Sat, 02 Oct 1999 00:47:30 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 00:47:30 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7t0nr1$10oe$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu>, kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) wrote: >I dunno--Bilbo was a thief, and a rather good one at that, even >if he had a little magic help. Your "rather good" thief was caught on nearly every occasion he tried to steal. The only time he got away with it was when he took the Arkenstone, and then he had the advantage of having found it before Thorin could take possession of it. >Frodo was a thief (the mushrooms). He got caught, didn't he? >Lobellia was a thief (silver spoons). She got caught, too. >A bunch of Bilbo's guests either stole stuff or had regular habits of >failing to return them. So, given all these Hobbits running around blithely stealing things with the subtlety of a bulldozer in a sandbox, you think it would be a great idea to say that Hobbits make excellent thieves? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### rom: kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Supersedes: <7t5fk8$14ve$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> Date: 2 Oct 1999 17:41:01 GMT Organization: Department of Computer Science, LSU, Baton Rouge Lines: 58 Message-ID: <7t5g3d$be8$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <7svj7m$2is_024@org.xenite.org> <7t0nr1$10oe$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <7t4684$16g_020@org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: oldbit.csc.lsu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.uah.edu!SonOfMaze.dpo.uab.edu!juniper.cis.uab.edu!cis.uab.edu!news.lsu.edu!kuo In article <7t4684$16g_020@org.xenite.org>, Michael Martinez wrote: >In article <7t0nr1$10oe$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu>, kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) wrote: >>I dunno--Bilbo was a thief, and a rather good one at that, even >>if he had a little magic help. >Your "rather good" thief was caught on nearly every occasion he tried to >steal. The only time he got away with it was when he took the Arkenstone, >and then he had the advantage of having found it before Thorin could take >possession of it. He was bumbling at first, but he got pretty good at sneaking around even without the help of the Ring. And I'd count instances like when he took the cup as successful, even though the missing item was noted later. After all, by a hobbit's customes, found treasure is fair game if he isn't caught during the act. His biggest success, IMHO, is when he succeeded in stealing all the dwarves out of prison. That took a lot of sneaking around and clever thought. So what if the elves noticed this afterwards! And I'd say that overall, he was quite a good thief because he returned to the Shire with a big load of stolen loot (which is the reason he went on the adventure in the first place). >>Frodo was a thief (the mushrooms). >He got caught, didn't he? Yes, but we don't know his success rate. We do know it wasn't just a one time thing. >>Lobellia was a thief (silver spoons). >She got caught, too. But presumably she was never caught during the act. Bilbo may have had little trouble deducing where the spoons went, but if she'd ever been caught red-handed, the subtlety of Bilbo's joke wouldn't have made sense. She wasn't ever caught and punished like Frodo. >>A bunch of Bilbo's guests either stole stuff or had regular habits of >>failing to return them. >So, given all these Hobbits running around blithely stealing things with >the subtlety of a bulldozer in a sandbox, you think it would be a great >idea to say that Hobbits make excellent thieves? Actually, my conclusion was that it's reasonable to say hobbits were prone to theivery. I stated it quite clearly at the bottom of my post. -- _____ Isaac Kuo kuo@bit.csc.lsu.edu http://www.csc.lsu.edu/~kuo __|_)o(_|__ ICQ 29055726 /___________\ "Mari-san... Yokatta... \=\)-----(/=/ ...Yokatta go-buji de..." - Karigari Hiroshi ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7t67tt$1c8_008@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <7svj7m$2is_024@org.xenite.org> <7t0nr1$10oe$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <7t4684$16g_020@org.xenite.org> <7t5g3d$be8$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 67 Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 00:27:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.94 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938910512 209.181.118.94 (Sat, 02 Oct 1999 19:28:32 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 19:28:32 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7t5g3d$be8$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu>, kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) wrote: >In article <7t4684$16g_020@org.xenite.org>, >Michael Martinez wrote: >>In article <7t0nr1$10oe$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu>, kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac > Kuo) wrote: >>>I dunno--Bilbo was a thief, and a rather good one at that, even >>>if he had a little magic help. > >>Your "rather good" thief was caught on nearly every occasion he tried to >>steal. The only time he got away with it was when he took the Arkenstone, >>and then he had the advantage of having found it before Thorin could take >>possession of it. > >He was bumbling at first, but he got pretty good at sneaking around >even without the help of the Ring. And I'd count instances like >when he took the cup as successful, even though the missing item >was noted later. After all, by a hobbit's customes, found >treasure is fair game if he isn't caught during the act. Bilbo was a lousy thief. Part of the great humor in the story is the fact that he was a lousy thief. >His biggest success, IMHO, is when he succeeded in stealing all >the dwarves out of prison. That took a lot of sneaking around >and clever thought. So what if the elves noticed this afterwards! That is not thievery, but a heroic rescue. That he hid them in barrels to get them out of the Elvenking's halls is not thievery. >And I'd say that overall, he was quite a good thief because >he returned to the Shire with a big load of stolen loot (which >is the reason he went on the adventure in the first place). None of the money Bilbo returned with was stolen by him. >>>Frodo was a thief (the mushrooms). > >>He got caught, didn't he? > >Yes, but we don't know his success rate. We do know it wasn't >just a one time thing. "One time thing"? Frodo says he was caught several times. >>>Lobellia was a thief (silver spoons). > >>She got caught, too. > >But presumably she was never caught during the act. Bilbo may >have had little trouble deducing where the spoons went, but >if she'd ever been caught red-handed, the subtlety of Bilbo's >joke wouldn't have made sense. Caught is caught. Bilbo knew who took the spoons. And it's not like she climbed a 30-foot wall, swam across a moat, or picked anyone's pocket in the taking. She had possession of the spoons and simply refused to return them. There is simply no textual basis for the atrocious bastardization which role-playing games have inflicted on Tolkien's hobbits. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 00:37:37 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 37 Message-ID: <28891-37F6DD91-35@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <7t5fk8$14ve$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQxjgyq5JRTObr9cxVdIs/S5wCF/AIUaytJvO8P3eI8F0q14TE16d6DeB8= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >Isaac Kuo wrote: >>And I'd say that overall, he was quite a >>good thief because he returned to the >>Shire with a big load of stolen loot >>(which is the reason he went on the >>adventure in the first place). >None of the money Bilbo returned with >was stolen by him. Michael's right. The chests of silver and gold were a gift from the Dwarves, who rewarded him for his aid on their quest. After all, they wouln'd have succeeded without him. But it was his optimism and refusal to give up, not any thieving skills, which helped him succeed. There was also the treasure taken from the trolls, but I wouldn't call it stealing, rather recovering, since the trolls had stolen it in the first place. Bilbo split that money with Gandalf anyway, and what he kept he pretty much "gave away to charity". I'd agrre with Michael's comment on ME hobbits not being natural prone to thievery. The social and econonic structure of the Shire makes it very unlikely that hobbits would resort to professional thievery. Certainly there were instances of "extended borrowing". However, since the Shire in many ways was like one big family anyway, the hobbits weren't bothered by this anyway. After all, if a forgetful relative happens to "forget" to return something he borrowed, there's always a chance you might get it back as a mathom the next time someone has a birthday (and according to the first chapter of LotR I, there were birthday parties almost everyday in the Shire.) As for hobbits of Bree-land, I would guess that the same would probably hold. But for halfings or hobbits in RPG worlds other than ME, this doesn't necessarily have to hold true. --Dave ###### From: andrew@wellinghall.force9.co.uk Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 07:20:18 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7t703d$tbc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> <37f3d6f5.1321940@news.cc.tut.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.166.139.131 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Oct 03 07:20:18 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; MSN 2.5; MSN 2.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x24.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.166.139.131 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDwellinghall Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article , mark@pc-intouch.com wrote: > On Fri, 1 Oct 1999 08:20:00 +0100, Andrew Wells > wrote: > > >(Note: I don't really believe that most hobbits beat their children very > >often; but we are given no evidence to the contrary, that I can see). > > I think the low incidence of violent crime (as indicated by the degree of > police protection we see in the Shire) is a good indication to the contrary. A low level of policing does not necessarily imply a low level of violent crime. Andrew Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37f7290c.383877356@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> <37f3d6f5.1321940@news.cc.tut.fi> <7t703d$tbc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-36.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 9 Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 10:01:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 938944680 207.212.198.18 (Sun, 03 Oct 1999 02:58:00 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 02:58:00 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Sun, 03 Oct 1999 07:20:18 GMT, andrew@wellinghall.force9.co.uk wrote: >A low level of policing does not necessarily imply a low level of >violent crime. It does in a community that has enough resources that it could increase policing if it were really necessary. ###### From: wellinghall@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 18:34:43 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7tas02$drb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7sput5$tk_036@Org.xenite.org> <15074-37F1884E-51@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7svj7m$2is_024@Org.xenite.org> <37f3d6f5.1321940@news.cc.tut.fi> <7t703d$tbc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <37f7290c.383877356@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.166.139.132 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Oct 04 18:34:43 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; MSN 2.5; MSN 2.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x43.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.166.139.132 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDwellinghall Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newspeer.ebone.net!amsnews01.chello.com!carrier1.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <37f7290c.383877356@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: > On Sun, 03 Oct 1999 07:20:18 GMT, andrew@wellinghall.force9.co.uk > wrote: > > >A low level of policing does not necessarily imply a low level of > >violent crime. > > It does in a community that has enough resources that it could > increase policing if it were really necessary. Not sure about that. No real police in Britain until the mid- nineteenth century. Andrew Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Scott Conner" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7sb1uq$3pk_002@Org.xenite.org> <37E949A8.3B2906E3@arrakis.es> <7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: The September 22, 1999 Bloodbath Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 23:27:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.24.66.163 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usit.net X-Trace: news1.usit.net 939079644 208.24.66.163 (Mon, 04 Oct 1999 19:27:24 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 19:27:24 EDT Organization: U. S. Internet, Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.usit.net!news1.usit.net!not-for-mail Robert Barrett wrote in message news:7scfmk$g9p$1@netnews.upenn.edu... > Well, ICE lost the Middle Earth license b/c they're in Chapter 11 > bankruptcy at the moment. Given their financial instability as well as > their inability to get past 1985 in terms of roleplaying game development, > I'm not surprised that Tolkien Enterprises yanked the license and plans to > give it to another gaming company in time for the movies' release. Depending on who you believe on the reasons behind it, West End Games went through a very similar situation with the Star Wars RPG liscense. Not being extremely familiar with Iron Crown's MERP material, what are the objections to their take on it? --Scott--