From: "Jeff Mejia" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Economy in Middle Earth Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 14:23:55 -0400 Lines: 21 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.146.164.33 Message-ID: <37e91fac@news3.prserv.net> X-Trace: 22 Sep 1999 18:27:56 GMT, 204.146.164.33 Organization: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed2.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news3.prserv.net!204.146.164.33 Hello, I have been lurking in this newsgroup for quite a while and would like to join the fray. The first question I would like to ask is, what type of economy exists in The Lord of the Rings? The economy seems to be a feudal agrarian one, but how would this work in the Shire? There is no feudal lord to pay homage to. Also, what did Bilbo (and later, Frodo), do in Shire society? They seem to be landed gentry of some kind, but there is no indication that they have any job or function in society other than being Master of Bag End with its attendant duties and privileges. One can assume that Bilbo and Frodo could live off of Bilbo’s portion of the Smaug hoard, but what did Bilbo live off of before then? I mean, he was able to leave all of his duties and obligations at the drop of a hat without making any dispensations. It appears that the Sackville-Bagginses had him declared dead so that they could obtain Bag End (as his legal heir) and were auctioning off his property for profit. Anyway, that is one topic that I’m curious about. Jeff Mejia ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: MIchael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Economy in Middle Earth Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sbar3$1tc_006@Org.xenite.org> References: <37e91fac@news3.prserv.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 50 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 19:31:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.102 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938028838 209.181.119.102 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 14:33:58 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 14:33:58 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37e91fac@news3.prserv.net>, "Jeff Mejia" wrote: >Hello, I have been lurking in this newsgroup for quite a while and would >like to join the fray. [Whap! Bat! Slam! KABLAM!] Welcome to the fray. >The first question I would like to ask is, what type of economy exists in >The Lord of the Rings? There is no one economy in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. >...The economy seems to be a feudal agrarian one, but how would this work > in the Shire? There is no feudal lord to pay homage to. Hence, no feudalism. Feudalism in its strictest definition is an exchange of obligations between two parties (as opposed, say, to an exchange of goods and/or services for money). There is, in fact, a monied economy in both the Shire and Bree. Otho Sackville-Baggins buys up a lot of property in the Southfarthing and he and Lotho end up doing business with Saruman, selling a lot of food and pipeweed to Isengard. For specific mentions of money, reread the chapters where the hobbits are in Bree. >Also, what did Bilbo (and later, Frodo), do in Shire society? Tolkien never says, but many people suspect they owned Bagshot Row and perhaps other rental properties. Of course, Bilbo gained a lot of wealth on his adventure, though he ended up giving a lot of that money away. >...They seem to be landed gentry of some kind, but there is no indication >that they have any job or function in society other than being Master of >Bag End with its attendant duties and privileges. [snip] Technically, "landed gentry" are wealthy people who live in and own considerable real estate in the country. Bilbo and Frodo were the closest thing to "urban" hobbits one gets in the Shire. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: MIchael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Economy in Middle Earth Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sbjrt$3no_020@Org.xenite.org> References: <37e91fac@news3.prserv.net> <7sbar3$1tc_006@Org.xenite.org> <37e94ac6@news3.prserv.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 58 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 22:05:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.102 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938038077 209.181.119.102 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:07:57 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:07:57 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37e94ac6@news3.prserv.net>, "Jeff Mejia" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message <7sbar3$1tc_006@Org.xenite.org>... > >There did seem to be some vague vestiges of feudalism when the Shire was >chartered in T.A. 1601 by Arveleg II (?). [snip] Well, to (perhaps vainly) forestall another long-winded Medieval/Feudalism thread, I will point out that what scant evidence for any sort of feudalism in Middle-earth does exist in the Arnorian relationships. However, there was no such relationship at the time of the War of the Ring. Neither the Shire nor the Bree-landers were beholden to any overlords, and their societies don't display evidence of feudalism. The one possible exception is Buckland. We know virtually nothing of its government, except that there was an autocratic chieftain, the Master of Buckland, whose position was hereditary. But there is no indication of vassalage or other forms of feudalism in Buckland. >>>...They seem to be landed gentry of some kind, but there is no indication >>>that they have any job or function in society other than being Master of >>>Bag End with its attendant duties and privileges. >> >>[snip] >> >>Technically, "landed gentry" are wealthy people who live in and own >>considerable real estate in the country. Bilbo and Frodo were the closest >>thing to "urban" hobbits one gets in the Shire. > >> > >Actually, Bag End was in a fairly rural setting, amidst many "farms bordered >by neat hedgerows". Hobbiton, the nearest town to bag end, was so small >that it did not even have an inn, forcing the hobbits in the area to walk to >Bywater for a proper pint of 1420. The IVY BUSH was the local inn of Hobbiton. It was the Gaffer's favorite hangout. Tolkien's depiction of Hobbiton and the Hill shows that the Hill was on the edge of Hobbiton. Bagshot Row was below Bag End. The town of Over Hill lay just north of the Hill. According to Tolkien's map (in THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING) Hobbiton lay on both sides of the Water and Bywater lay only on the south side and was smaller than Hobbiton. So Bag End was in the heart of Hobbit urbanism. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Jeff Mejia" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37e91fac@news3.prserv.net> <7sbar3$1tc_006@Org.xenite.org> <37e94ac6@news3.prserv.net> <7sbjrt$3no_020@Org.xenite.org> Subject: Re: Economy in Middle Earth Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 10:32:29 -0400 Lines: 46 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.146.164.33 Message-ID: <37eb8c61@news3.prserv.net> X-Trace: 24 Sep 1999 14:36:17 GMT, 204.146.164.33 Organization: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed2.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news3.prserv.net!204.146.164.33 Michael Martinez wrote in message <7sbjrt$3no_020@Org.xenite.org>... >In article <37e94ac6@news3.prserv.net>, "Jeff Mejia" wrote: >>Michael Martinez wrote in message <7sbar3$1tc_006@Org.xenite.org>... >> >[snip] >The IVY BUSH was the local inn of Hobbiton. It was the Gaffer's favorite >hangout. Tolkien's depiction of Hobbiton and the Hill shows that the Hill >was on the edge of Hobbiton. Bagshot Row was below Bag End. The town of >Over Hill lay just north of the Hill. Upon further review of the text, I have to agree that the IVY BUSH was in Hobbiton. I was basing my observations on the description of Hobbition and Bag End found in the ATLAS OF MIDDLE-EARTH. I should know better than to rely on secondary sources. > >According to Tolkien's map (in THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING) Hobbiton lay on >both sides of the Water and Bywater lay only on the south side and was >smaller than Hobbiton. > >So Bag End was in the heart of Hobbit urbanism. > I still get the impression that Bag End was more rural than urban. I think this impression is due to Tolkien's paining of the Hill that is on an old paperback cover of THE FELLOWISHIP OF THE RING. My impression was of a hill surrounded by fields and farms, with a small town at the bottom of the hill by the water. > > > >-- > \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org > \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! > //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] > // \\ENITE.org............................................... Thanks, Jeff Mejia ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Webmaster@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Economy in Middle Earth Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sgnis$304_008@Org.xenite.org> References: <37e91fac@news3.prserv.net> <7sbar3$1tc_006@Org.xenite.org> <37e94ac6@news3.prserv.net> <7sbjrt$3no_020@Org.xenite.org> <37eb8c61@news3.prserv.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 31 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 20:39:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.210 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938205613 207.224.149.210 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:40:13 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:40:13 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37eb8c61@news3.prserv.net>, "Jeff Mejia" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message <7sbjrt$3no_020@Org.xenite.org>... >>According to Tolkien's map (in THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING) Hobbiton lay on >>both sides of the Water and Bywater lay only on the south side and was >>smaller than Hobbiton. >> >>So Bag End was in the heart of Hobbit urbanism. >> > >I still get the impression that Bag End was more rural than urban. I think >this impression is due to Tolkien's paining of the Hill that is on an old >paperback cover of THE FELLOWISHIP OF THE RING. My impression was of a >hill surrounded by fields and farms, with a small town at the bottom of the >hill by the water. I looked at the painting, too. The fields are indeed mentioned, but it's more like an old country estate around which a couple of communities have grown up (although Bag End wasn't very old -- it was built by Bilbo's father). The map inidcates there were a lot of people in the area. I would not agree that Bilbo was "landed gentry". And there is no mention of farms and plantations in the area like in the Southfarthing. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org...............................................