From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 17 Sep 1999 15:53:30 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail It has been argued that the incarnation of the Istari did not weaken them; rather that they retained the full power they had as maia in Valinor. I disagree. I believe the texts show they were "weakened." We can choose a different word, perhaps diminished, dimmed, dampened, hidden, reduced, whatever. The point is that their incarnation into the flesh of man did negatively impact their overall power. Here are *all* the quotes I took from Unfinished Tales, The Istari, to make my point: 1) "For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain" 2) "For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience..." 3) "For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." Let's take then in order and compare them to the Valar and Maia remaining in Valinor. There is no evidence that the taking on of "raiment" by the Ainur subjected them "to the fears and pains and weariness of earth," or required that they "learn much anew by slow experience," or that it would "imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." Thus it appears that the change undergone by the Istari was a more profound change than merely taking on raiment and amounts to a true "incarnation" in the sense of taking on a flesh and blood with all that entails. Moreover, the citations above indicate that their was a dimming, weakening, diminution, dampening or whatever term you wish to use of the power the Istari originally had in Valinor. That is not to say the power was lost forever, but rather it was limited only while they took on the flesh and blood incarnation. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rtv32$1mc_018@Org.xenite.org> References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 24 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:51:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.116 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937590810 209.181.118.116 (Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:53:30 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:53:30 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >It has been argued that the incarnation of the Istari did not weaken them; >rather that they retained the full power they had as maia in Valinor. I >disagree. I believe the texts show they were "weakened." We can choose a >different word, perhaps diminished, dimmed, dampened, hidden, reduced, >whatever. The point is that their incarnation into the flesh of man did >negatively impact their overall power. The texts do not show that the Istari were any "weaker" in terms of native strength of power than they were in their pre-Incarnate forms. They took on Mannish bodies of their own free will but gave up nothing of their power or strength. They would have had to place their power in external sources, and would have to have been separated from those sources, in order to be diminished. They did not do this when they left Valinor. Saruman appears to have done it some time after arriving in Middle-earth. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:18:05 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7rui5n$4ir$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> <7rtv32$1mc_018@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.68.32.164 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 937610231 4699 12.68.32.164 (17 Sep 1999 23:17:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 1999 23:17:11 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnslave1!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7rtv32$1mc_018@Org.xenite.org... > The texts do not show that the Istari were any "weaker" > in terms of native strength of power than they were in > their pre-Incarnate forms. They were 'mighty', but had 'foregone might'... without being weakened at all in the process. Got it. > They would have had to place their power in external > sources, and would have to have been separated from those > sources, in order to be diminished. External sources such as staves for instance? Though there are plenty of other means of Ainur losing power listed... one of them being the taking on of bodily forms. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 17 Sep 1999 18:19:35 GMT References: <7rtv32$1mc_018@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990917141935.04046.00000032@ngol08.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.tli.de!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!pitt.edu!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7rtv32$1mc_018@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >The texts do not show that the Istari were any "weaker" in terms of native >strength of power than they were in their pre-Incarnate forms. They took >on Mannish bodies of their own free will but gave up nothing of their power >or strength. > >They would have had to place their power in external sources, and would >have to have been separated from those sources, in order to be diminished. >They did not do this when they left Valinor. Saruman appears to have done >it some time after arriving in Middle-earth. The way I read the quoted material is that by taking on the flesh and blood incarnate form, their native power was somehow dampened. Think of the ubiquitous Star Trek dampening field. Their innate power is still "there" but they just cannot access all of it in the Istari incarnate form. On the other hand, the raiment taken on by the Valar and other maia did not appear to reduce their power or have any of the side effects Tolkien describes happened to the Istari. Russ ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 8 Message-ID: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAhqgf1hFuGqgOf+BeTQcjqk8LDjcCFHDd7OpArR0anEca/MDHgIZtAuxk Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: I'd have to say that I pretty much agree with you on this point. --Dave ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <05108cf7.3940e3a3@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Lines: 52 Bytes: 1807 X-Originating-Host: 171.64.194.32 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> X-Wren-Trace: eGJHb253MHoxKGVraTZseFBiZmZpYC1mYyBoZX42KnU8KnQ3InMuOCAwNA== Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:45:38 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.9 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 937636864 10.0.2.9 (Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:41:04 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:41:04 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail > It has been argued that the incarnation of the Istari > did not weaken them; > rather that they retained the full power they had as > maia in Valinor. I > disagree. I believe the texts show they were > "weakened." We can choose a > different word, perhaps diminished, dimmed, dampened, > hidden, reduced, > whatever. The point is that their incarnation into > the flesh of man did > negatively impact their overall power. > Here are *all* the quotes I took from Unfinished > Tales, The Istari, to make my > point: > > 1) "For with the consent of Eru they sent members of > their own high order, but > clad in bodies as of men, real and not feigned, but > subject to the fears and > pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and > thirst and be slain" > > 2) "For it is said indeed that being embodied the > Istari had need to learn much > anew by slow experience..." > > 3) "For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must > forgo might, and clothe > themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win > the trust of Elves and > Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom > and knowledge, and > confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming > from the flesh." It seems clear to me that the incarnation of the Istari is of a very different kind from the taking on of raiment. The quotes above speak in one hand of modifications at a psychological level (reduction of knowledge and wisdom) and also about beeing subject to the flesh. I think they don't necessarily imply a reduction of power. Unless we enlarge the definition of power. Joćo Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Sep 1999 00:12:24 GMT References: <7rtv32$1mc_018@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990917201224.22185.00001136@ng-cg1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!oleane!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >>It has been argued that the incarnation of the Istari did not weaken them; >>rather that they retained the full power they had as maia in Valinor. I >>disagree. I believe the texts show they were "weakened." We can choose a >>different word, perhaps diminished, dimmed, dampened, hidden, reduced, >>whatever. The point is that their incarnation into the flesh of man did >>negatively impact their overall power. > >The texts do not show that the Istari were any "weaker" in terms of native >strength of power than they were in their pre-Incarnate forms. They took >on Mannish bodies of their own free will but gave up nothing of their power >or strength. > >They would have had to place their power in external sources, and would >have to have been separated from those sources, in order to be diminished. >They did not do this when they left Valinor. Saruman appears to have done >it some time after arriving in Middle-earth. There's another cite regarding my point that the incarnation of the Istari was of a different order than the taking on of raiment. Its from Letter 212: "It was because of their love of Ea, and because of the part they played in its making, that wished to, and could, incarnate themselves in visible physical forms, though these were comparable to our clothes (in so far as our clothes are a personal expression) not to our bodies." The previous cites from Unfinished Tales make it clear that the Istari did take on actual flesh and blood bodily forms, *unlike* the raiment Tolkien describes above. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rumqg$1h0_022@Org.xenite.org> References: <7rtv32$1mc_018@Org.xenite.org> <19990917141935.04046.00000032@ngol08.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 00:36:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.116 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937615103 209.181.118.116 (Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:38:23 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:38:23 CDT Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990917141935.04046.00000032@ngol08.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7rtv32$1mc_018@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>The texts do not show that the Istari were any "weaker" in terms of native >>strength of power than they were in their pre-Incarnate forms. They took >>on Mannish bodies of their own free will but gave up nothing of their power >>or strength. >> >>They would have had to place their power in external sources, and would >>have to have been separated from those sources, in order to be diminished. >>They did not do this when they left Valinor. Saruman appears to have done >>it some time after arriving in Middle-earth. > >The way I read the quoted material is that by taking on the flesh and blood >incarnate form, their native power was somehow dampened. Then you are reading the quoted material incorrectly. Their native power was not diminished. Gandalf did a pretty good job of wrecking a mountain when he fought the Balrog. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <283beef1.48a17547@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Lines: 23 Bytes: 792 X-Originating-Host: 171.64.194.32 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> <05108cf7.3940e3a3@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7rve37$3ps_008@Org.xenite.org> X-Wren-Trace: eEFkTE1UE1kSC0ZIShVPW3NBRUVKQw5FQANLRl0VCVYfCVcUAVANGwMTFw== Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 00:44:35 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.9 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 937640543 10.0.2.9 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 00:42:23 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 00:42:23 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail > "raiment" is physical bodies. Nothing more, nothing > less. And to become > and Istar a Maia would not be diminished in native > strength one iota. It > was not within their power to change their own nature, > and it was not > within the power (or authority) of the Valar to alter, > reduce, enhance, > modify, change, minimize, maximize, pervert, or > otherwise bring about some > sort of difference in the natures of their own kind. I agree with that. But were they able to use their power while incarnate as istari? If I'm blindfolded I keep the ability to see but I'm not able to use it. Joćo Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Sep 1999 03:52:05 GMT References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nntp.psi.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) writes: > > >I'd have to say that I pretty much agree with you on this point. OK! Got One! Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 70 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Sep 1999 04:16:49 GMT References: <7run2u$1h0_024@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >>There's another cite regarding my point that the incarnation of the Istari >was >>of a different order than the taking on of raiment. Its from Letter 212: >> >>"It was because of their love of Ea, and because of the part they played in >its >>making, that wished to, and could, incarnate themselves in visible physical >>forms, though these were comparable to our clothes (in so far as our clothes >>are a personal expression) not to our bodies." > >The "raiment" assumed by the Valar and Maiar consisted of nothing other >than "bodies". You're trying to argue a distinction that doesn't exist. > >And you seem to have snipped a relevant portion of the letter which >followed immediately on from that sentence up there: > > ...Their forms were thus expressions of their persons, powers, and > loves. They need not be anthropomorphic (YAVANNA wife of Aule > would, for instance, appear in the form of a great Tree.) But the > 'habitual' shapes of the Valar, when visible or clothed, were > anthropomorphic, because of their intense concern with Elves and > Men. I try not to overquote but the continuation supports my position I believe. Tolkien describes the raiment as "forms", "expressions", "appear[ances]", and "shapes". That is consistent with the prior passage as I interpret it. The Istari were not merely taking on forms, expressions, or shapes. They were becoming flesh and blood. Never did Tolkien describe the taking of raiment as subjecting the Ainur to the "side effects" he describes the Istari as experiencing. Yavanna did not, so far as Tolkien wrote, have dimmed knowledge and wisdom when she was raimented as a tree. She was not confused with by cares weariness and fears. She did not need to learn much anew when a tree. When Orome rode hunting in Middle Earth, memory of Valinor did not dim for him as a vision from afar off. Tolkien says none of this when talking about raiment, but goes out of his way to discuss it with the Istari. Tolkien did not say Yavanna *became* a tree - bark, leaves, sap and all (no bad jokes Michael); rather he said she "appear[ed] in the form of a tree." On the other hand, he says the Istari actually took on bodies on Men. He uses very different language when describing the raiment or clothing that Ainur took on in Valinor and the flesh and blood incarnation that the Istari underwent. >And remember, of those who were tested by the Ring, Tolkien felt that only >Gandalf would have sufficient power to master it. So? I've never argued that Olorin lost all power. I said it appeared his power was dampened. Even dampened he was still arguably the most powerful being in Middle Earth, save Sauron. I find it interesting in the first quote I took from Unfinished Tales that it starts: "For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order..." The Valar were in charge of governing Middle Earth. They would not have needed Eru's consent to take out Sauron on their own. Indeed, Illuvatar chastised Manwe for having been too timid in dealing with the real Dark Lord. However, sending Ainur to Middle Earth, not raimented as Men, but in actual flesh and blood bodies of Men might have been a strategy that required Eru's consent. You pointed out in another message that the Valar could not go around and change the basic nature of Illuvatar's creation. They could not on their own, but they could with Eru's consent. I need not cite you those instnaces where the Valar could do such things but only with Eru's imprimatur. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rve37$3ps_008@Org.xenite.org> References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> <05108cf7.3940e3a3@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:13:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.215 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937638944 207.224.149.215 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 02:15:44 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 02:15:44 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <05108cf7.3940e3a3@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com>, JP wrote: >It seems clear to me that the incarnation of the Istari >is of a very different kind from the taking on of >raiment. "raiment" is physical bodies. Nothing more, nothing less. And to become and Istar a Maia would not be diminished in native strength one iota. It was not within their power to change their own nature, and it was not within the power (or authority) of the Valar to alter, reduce, enhance, modify, change, minimize, maximize, pervert, or otherwise bring about some sort of difference in the natures of their own kind. This whole thing has been blown WAY out of proportion. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org> References: <7run2u$1h0_024@Org.xenite.org> <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 55 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:17:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.215 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937639176 207.224.149.215 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 02:19:36 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 02:19:36 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >>And you seem to have snipped a relevant portion of the letter which >>followed immediately on from that sentence up there: >> >> ...Their forms were thus expressions of their persons, powers, and >> loves. They need not be anthropomorphic (YAVANNA wife of Aule >> would, for instance, appear in the form of a great Tree.) But the >> 'habitual' shapes of the Valar, when visible or clothed, were >> anthropomorphic, because of their intense concern with Elves and >> Men. > >I try not to overquote but the continuation supports my position I believe. No it doesn't. It stipulates that the Valar "habitually" clothed themselves as Elves or Men. >The Istari were not merely taking on forms, expressions, or shapes. They were >becoming flesh and blood. No difference. >Tolkien did not say Yavanna *became* a tree - bark, leaves, sap and all (no bad >jokes Michael); rather he said she "appear[ed] in the form of a tree." On the >other hand, he says the Istari actually took on bodies on Men. Right up there. See where it says, "appear in the form of a great Tree"? One cannot be in the form of a great Tree without bark, leaves, sap, and all. >>And remember, of those who were tested by the Ring, Tolkien felt that only >>Gandalf would have sufficient power to master it. > >So? I've never argued that Olorin lost all power. I said it appeared his power >was dampened. Even dampened he was still arguably the most powerful being in >Middle Earth, save Sauron. Their power was not dampened. The Valar placed a moral restriction on them, no more. In their Istarin forms they learned new things and had only dim recollection of some others. >The Valar were in charge of governing Middle Earth. They would not have needed >Eru's consent to take out Sauron on their own. They consulted Iluvatar on just about every decision they made. The one chief moral difference between Manwe and Melkor was that Manwe relied upon Iluvatar for guidance. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rvh4n$3ps_020@Org.xenite.org> References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> <05108cf7.3940e3a3@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7rve37$3ps_008@Org.xenite.org> <283beef1.48a17547@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 27 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:05:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.215 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937642064 207.224.149.215 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 03:07:44 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 03:07:44 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <283beef1.48a17547@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com>, JP wrote: [Michael Martinez wrote] >> "raiment" is physical bodies. Nothing more, nothing less. And >> to become and Istar a Maia would not be diminished in native >> strength one iota. It was not within their power to change their >> own nature, and it was not within the power (or authority) of the >> Valar to alter, reduce, enhance, modify, change, minimize, maximize, >> pervert, or otherwise bring about some sort of difference in the >> natures of their own kind. > >I agree with that. >But were they able to use their power while incarnate as istari? Yes. >If I'm blindfolded I keep the ability to see but I'm not able to use >it. The Istari weren't blindfolded. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 09:02:38 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 11 Message-ID: <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.59.69 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 937660286 12563 12.75.59.69 (18 Sep 1999 13:11:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1999 13:11:26 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail McREsq wrote in message news:19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com... > > OK! Got One! Two. It seems fairly inescapable that their bodily forms were different than the raiment of other Ainur and that they were 'reduced' or 'weakened' when sent out. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:52:59 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 46 Message-ID: <7s0bjs$epo$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <7rtv32$1mc_018@Org.xenite.org> <19990917201224.22185.00001136@ng-cg1.aol.com> <7run2u$1h0_024@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.83.34 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 937669052 15160 12.75.83.34 (18 Sep 1999 15:37:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1999 15:37:32 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feeder.qis.net!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!attbtf!ip.att.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7run2u$1h0_024@Org.xenite.org... > The "raiment" assumed by the Valar and Maiar consisted of > nothing other than "bodies". You're trying to argue a > distinction that doesn't exist. Michael Martinez "The Valar had no bodies, but could assume shapes. After the coming of the Eldar they most often used shapes of 'human' form, though taller (not gigantic) and more magnificent." JRR Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring - The Annals of Aman pg 69 > And remember, of those who were tested by the Ring, > Tolkien felt that only Gandalf would have sufficient > power to master it. I have no idea why you would consider this relevant to the point at hand, but it does not in fact seem to be true. What JRRT said in the letter you seem to be referring to appears to be that Gandalf alone of the 'good' side might have had the power to wrest control of the Ring from Sauron in a face to face confrontation of wills - similar to the fight between Sauron and Aragorn over control of the Palantir. He indicates that Elrond or Galadriel would have first had to defeat Sauron by building up armies to assail him with as they did not have the power to defeat him personally. Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7rve37$3ps_008@Org.xenite.org... > "raiment" is physical bodies. Nothing more, nothing > less. Michael Martinez "...for the visible form of the Valar proceeds from their own will and with regard to their true being is to be likened rather to the chosen raiment of Elves and Men than to their bodies." JRR Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring - The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II) pg 218 ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 11:53:29 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <7s0d29$k62$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> <05108cf7.3940e3a3@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7rve37$3ps_008@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.83.34 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 937670537 20674 12.75.83.34 (18 Sep 1999 16:02:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1999 16:02:17 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7rve37$3ps_008@Org.xenite.org... > And to become and Istar a Maia would not be diminished in > native strength one iota. Michael Martinez "Why they [the Istari] should take such a form [physical bodies] is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to LIMIT and HINDER their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane.." JRR Tolkien, Letter #156 ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Sep 1999 14:02:51 GMT References: <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990918100251.05001.00000002@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>The Istari were not merely taking on forms, expressions, or shapes. They >were >>becoming flesh and blood. > >No difference. Socrates would disagree. >>Tolkien did not say Yavanna *became* a tree - bark, leaves, sap and all (no >bad >>jokes Michael); rather he said she "appear[ed] in the form of a tree." On >the >>other hand, he says the Istari actually took on bodies on Men. > >Right up there. See where it says, "appear in the form of a great Tree"? >One cannot be in the form of a great Tree without bark, leaves, sap, and >all. > >>>And remember, of those who were tested by the Ring, Tolkien felt that only >>>Gandalf would have sufficient power to master it. >> >>So? I've never argued that Olorin lost all power. I said it appeared his >power >>was dampened. Even dampened he was still arguably the most powerful being >in >>Middle Earth, save Sauron. > >Their power was not dampened. The Valar placed a moral restriction on >them, no more. In their Istarin forms they learned new things and had only >dim recollection of some others. > >>The Valar were in charge of governing Middle Earth. They would not have >needed >>Eru's consent to take out Sauron on their own. > >They consulted Iluvatar on just about every decision they made. The one >chief moral difference between Manwe and Melkor was that Manwe relied upon >Iluvatar for guidance. Oh. There was a much bigger difference than that. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Sep 1999 14:02:51 GMT References: <283beef1.48a17547@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990918100251.05001.00000003@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <283beef1.48a17547@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com>, JP writes: >I agree with that. >But were they able to use >their power while incarnate as istari? >If I'm blindfolded I keep the ability to see but I'm >not able to use it. > Good analogy. Wish I thought of it. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Sep 1999 14:02:51 GMT References: <7rvh4n$3ps_020@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990918100251.05001.00000004@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7rvh4n$3ps_020@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>If I'm blindfolded I keep the ability to see but I'm not able to use >>it. > >The Istari weren't blindfolded. > Ever hear of an analogy? Russ ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <1d0398b0.61838288@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Lines: 48 Bytes: 1633 X-Originating-Host: 171.64.194.32 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org> <19990918152048.05001.00000058@ngol05.aol.com> X-Wren-Trace: eJu+lpeOyYPI0ZySkM+Vgambn5+QmdSfmtmRnIfP04zF043O24rXwdnJzQ== Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:41:20 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.9 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 937705150 10.0.2.9 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:39:10 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:39:10 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.supernews.com.MISMATCH!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail > >>>I agree with that. > >>>But were they able to use > >>>their power while incarnate as istari? > >>>If I'm blindfolded I keep the ability to see but I'm > >>>not able to use it. > >>> > >> > >>Good analogy. Wish I thought of it. > > > >Except the Istari were not blindfolded. > > > If they were actually blindfolded it wouldn't be an > analogy. To be an analogy > you have to be making a comparison to something else. > He's saying that > blindfolding a sighted man is analogous to the Istari > taking on human bodies. > The man is still able to see but cannot use his sense. > The Istari still have > their power but are not able to use it. Actually the only thing I meant was that having power is different from being able to use it. I don't find the citations completely conclusive "forgo might" may be only a reference to the proibition to use force agains force, and not to any physical limitaion. "dimming their wisdom and knowledge" doesn't imply a diminishing of stength or ability to perform magic. Having to learn things anew also only implies a dimming of knowledge. However they seemed to need their staves to be able to use their power (and that's certainly a limitation): Before entering Theoden's throne room Gandalf insists in carrying his staff; Saruman loses his powers apparently because his staff was broken; and Saruman thought Gandalf wanted to collect all the staves for himself. Joćo Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s0n5g$3kc_012@Org.xenite.org> References: <7rvh4n$3ps_020@Org.xenite.org> <19990918100251.05001.00000004@ngol05.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:54:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.198 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937681001 207.224.149.198 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:56:41 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:56:41 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990918100251.05001.00000004@ngol05.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7rvh4n$3ps_020@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>If I'm blindfolded I keep the ability to see but I'm not able to use >>>it. >> >>The Istari weren't blindfolded. >> > >Ever hear of an analogy? That would be like talking about fish in a bait store when discussing Iraq in the Pentagon, right? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s0n7k$3kc_014@Org.xenite.org> References: <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990918100251.05001.00000002@ngol05.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 28 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:55:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.198 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937681069 207.224.149.198 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:57:49 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:57:49 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990918100251.05001.00000002@ngol05.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>The Istari were not merely taking on forms, expressions, or shapes. They >>>were becoming flesh and blood. >> >>No difference. > >Socrates would disagree. Since he didn't write THE LORD OF THE RINGS, he would be wrong to do so. >>They consulted Iluvatar on just about every decision they made. The one >>chief moral difference between Manwe and Melkor was that Manwe relied upon >>Iluvatar for guidance. > >Oh. There was a much bigger difference than that. I'm not talking about their comparisons of hangnails. I'm trying to put things in perspective, here. :) -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org> References: <283beef1.48a17547@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <19990918100251.05001.00000003@ngol05.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:56:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.198 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937681093 207.224.149.198 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:58:13 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:58:13 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!novia!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990918100251.05001.00000003@ngol05.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <283beef1.48a17547@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com>, JP > writes: > >>I agree with that. >>But were they able to use >>their power while incarnate as istari? >>If I'm blindfolded I keep the ability to see but I'm >>not able to use it. >> > >Good analogy. Wish I thought of it. Except the Istari were not blindfolded. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 12 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:58:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.198 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937681204 207.224.149.198 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 14:00:04 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 14:00:04 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se>, "Paris" wrote: > >The Istari were diminished, as the text clearly states. Absolute nonsense. The text clearly makes no such statement. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Sep 1999 19:20:48 GMT References: <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990918152048.05001.00000058@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.abs.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newspump.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>>I agree with that. >>>But were they able to use >>>their power while incarnate as istari? >>>If I'm blindfolded I keep the ability to see but I'm >>>not able to use it. >>> >> >>Good analogy. Wish I thought of it. > >Except the Istari were not blindfolded. > If they were actually blindfolded it wouldn't be an analogy. To be an analogy you have to be making a comparison to something else. He's saying that blindfolding a sighted man is analogous to the Istari taking on human bodies. The man is still able to see but cannot use his sense. The Istari still have their power but are not able to use it. Actually, a slightly better analogy is that the man is wearing blinders that cuts off peripheral vision only. That diminishes his sight not blocks it completely. The Istari still retained the ability to use much of their power. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Sep 1999 19:20:48 GMT References: <7s0n7k$3kc_014@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990918152048.05001.00000059@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspump.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s0n7k$3kc_014@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>>They consulted Iluvatar on just about every decision they made. The one >>>chief moral difference between Manwe and Melkor was that Manwe relied upon >>>Iluvatar for guidance. >> >>Oh. There was a much bigger difference than that. > >I'm not talking about their comparisons of hangnails. I'm trying to put >things in perspective, here. :) I wanted to take up this point. I never had the impression that the Valar consulted Manwe on just about every decsision they made. Arda was the Valar's show. They only consulted Illuvatar when they were faced with issues outside their remit: such as dealing with the half-elven, re-embodying dead elves, handling Ar-Pharazon's invasion, and incarnating some of the angelic order into actual flsh and blood human bodies as opposed to raiment. What other explicit consultation with Illuvatar were there? Re Melkor, Tolkien makes it clear his he wants to control Arda for his own glory as opposed to the glory of Illuvatar and the welfare of his Children so much so that he seeks to make himself God. Manwe knows his place and his role. That is there difference. Russ Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Sep 1999 19:20:49 GMT References: <7s0n5g$3kc_012@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990918152049.05001.00000060@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newspump.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s0n5g$3kc_012@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>>>If I'm blindfolded I keep the ability to see but I'm not able to use >>>>it. >>> >>>The Istari weren't blindfolded. >>> >> >>Ever hear of an analogy? > >That would be like talking about fish in a bait store when discussing Iraq >in the Pentagon, right? > Shhhhh. You're not supposed to use the secret codewords in public! Russ ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:21:59 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <7s1arq$mkb$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.59.21 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 937701050 23179 12.75.59.21 (19 Sep 1999 00:30:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1999 00:30:50 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org... > There is absolutely nothing in this citation or any of > the others which says the Istari were diminished. Well, we've got citations saying that they must "forgo might" and that their forms were chosen to "limit" and "hinder" them... but nope, the word "diminished" is not used in any that I can think of. This doesn't mean that wasn't the case, just that it is still possible to deny it from an entirely semantic standpoint. ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <1cb3e3d0.7f7fb044@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Lines: 18 Bytes: 676 X-Originating-Host: 171.64.194.32 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org> <19990918152048.05001.00000058@ngol05.aol.com> <1d0398b0.61838288@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7s1ju7$2tk_008@Org.xenite.org> X-Wren-Trace: eKeCqquy9b/07aCurPOpvZWno6OspeijpuWtoLvz77D577Hy57br/eX18Q== Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:36:17 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.9 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 937711904 10.0.2.9 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:31:44 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:31:44 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail > >However they seemed to need their staves to be able > >to use their power (and that's certainly a > limitation): > Gandalf did not need his staff to fight the Balrog > with lightning and > whatever else he tossed the critter's way. I know. I made that same observation in another thread. But that only implies that Gandalf without his staff (but with Nenya and his sword) was still powerfull enough to kill the balrog. It does not imply that he was as powerfull with his staff as without it. Joćo Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 27 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:40:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.198 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937690942 207.224.149.198 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:42:22 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:42:22 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se>, "Paris" wrote: >Michael Martinez skrev i >diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org... >> In article <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se>, "Paris" > wrote: >> > >> >The Istari were diminished, as the text clearly states. >> >> Absolute nonsense. The text clearly makes no such statement. > >Yes it does, in the passages cited by McREsq. I find the following >especially clearcut. > >"For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe >themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves >and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and >confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." There is absolutely nothing in this citation or any of the others which says the Istari were diminished. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <0ca2212a.91600adc@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Lines: 8 Bytes: 291 X-Originating-Host: 171.64.194.32 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org> <19990918152048.05001.00000058@ngol05.aol.com> <1d0398b0.61838288@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7s1ju7$2tk_008@Org.xenite.org> <1cb3e3d0.7f7fb044@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> X-Wren-Trace: eMfiysvSld+UjcDOzJPJ3fXHw8PMxYjDxoXNwNuTj9CZj9GSh9aLnYWVkQ== Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:44:49 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.9 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 937716016 10.0.2.9 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:40:16 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:40:16 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail > But that only implies that Gandalf without his staff > (but with Nenya and his sword) I confused the 2 rings: it's Narya, not Nenya * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s1185$2a4_014@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org> <19990918152048.05001.00000058@ngol05.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 27 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:46:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.198 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937691322 207.224.149.198 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:48:42 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:48:42 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.icl.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990918152048.05001.00000058@ngol05.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>>I agree with that. >>>>But were they able to use >>>>their power while incarnate as istari? >>>>If I'm blindfolded I keep the ability to see but I'm >>>>not able to use it. >>>> >>> >>>Good analogy. Wish I thought of it. >> >>Except the Istari were not blindfolded. >> > >If they were actually blindfolded it wouldn't be an analogy. [snip] Think metaphorically. The Istari were not blindfolded. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: 18 Sep 1999 23:44:58 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 12 Message-ID: <7s185q$11li$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 937698298 34482 140.186.80.8 (18 Sep 1999 23:44:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1999 23:44:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail In article <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael Martinez wrote: > >There is absolutely nothing in this citation or any of the others which >says the Istari were diminished. By this time, I woudl have thought that everyone who reads this group with any regularity would know that once Michael says "You're reading the text wrong", the discussion is effectively over. -- -------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)------------------------- "Our attitude's queer and quaint." -- W. S. Gilbert, _The Mikado_ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s1ju7$2tk_008@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org> <19990918152048.05001.00000058@ngol05.aol.com> <1d0398b0.61838288@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 13 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 03:05:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.131 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937710466 207.224.148.131 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:07:46 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:07:46 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <1d0398b0.61838288@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com>, JP wrote: >However they seemed to need their staves to be able >to use their power (and that's certainly a limitation): Gandalf did not need his staff to fight the Balrog with lightning and whatever else he tossed the critter's way. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s1jv8$2tk_010@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 03:06:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.131 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937710499 207.224.148.131 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:08:19 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:08:19 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , jubjub@flash.net (Lord Jubjub) wrote: >In article <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: >> >> There is absolutely nothing in this citation or any of the others which >> says the Istari were diminished. > >hmmmm. > >DIMMING. There's a word that is synonymous with diminish >FORGO MIGHT. Nope. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s1k2p$2tk_012@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s185q$11li$1@newsie2.cent.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 32 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 03:08:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.131 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937710612 207.224.148.131 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:10:12 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:10:12 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7s185q$11li$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote: >In article <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org>, >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >>There is absolutely nothing in this citation or any of the others which >>says the Istari were diminished. > >By this time, I woudl have thought that everyone who reads this group >with any regularity would know that once Michael says "You're reading >the text wrong", the discussion is effectively over. That's usually because someone decides to start making personal remarks about Michael, stupidly launching another flame war for no good reason whatsoever. Attacking me (and I KNOW you'll claim you weren't "attacking" me) doesn't prove anything except your willingness to drop the discussion to a lower level. Thank you, once again, for ruining the peace of the news group. This is, what, your second or third time starting it up again? At least do us all the courtesy of not participating in the next "What went wrong" discussion. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s24rh$1i8_010@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org> <19990918152048.05001.00000058@ngol05.aol.com> <1d0398b0.61838288@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7s1ju7$2tk_008@Org.xenite.org> <1cb3e3d0.7f7fb044@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 26 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 07:54:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.131 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937727781 207.224.148.131 (Sun, 19 Sep 1999 02:56:21 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 02:56:21 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <1cb3e3d0.7f7fb044@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com>, JP wrote: >> >However they seemed to need their staves to be able >> >to use their power (and that's certainly a limitation): >> Gandalf did not need his staff to fight the Balrog >> with lightning and whatever else he tossed the critter's way. > >I know. I made that same observation in another thread. >But that only implies that Gandalf without his staff >(but with Nenya and his sword) was still powerfull >enough to kill the balrog. Right. And just about ANYONE could kill a Balrog, couldn't they? :) On the other hand, Gandalf didn't really need his staff for anything inside Meduseld, either. Grima Wormtongue is not a very reliable source of information. When Gandalf raised his staff there is no evidence that it actually enabled him to do anything he couldn't have done without it. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s24sq$1i8_012@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org> <19990918152048.05001.00000058@ngol05.aol.com> <1d0398b0.61838288@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7s1ju7$2tk_008@Org.xenite.org> <1cb3e3d0.7f7fb044@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 07:55:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.131 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937727822 207.224.148.131 (Sun, 19 Sep 1999 02:57:02 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 02:57:02 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <1cb3e3d0.7f7fb044@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com>, JP wrote: >I know. I made that same observation in another thread. >But that only implies that Gandalf without his staff >(but with Nenya and his sword) was still powerfull >enough to kill the balrog. BTW -- just to be nit-picky, Gandalf had Narya, not Nenya, but I understood your point. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 09:10:02 -0400 Lines: 36 Message-ID: <37E4E09D.EB198C1D@erols.com> References: <7run2u$1h0_024@Org.xenite.org> <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com> <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: rwp2a6ozvTXMdy7+p3Fi8i8U0WuhyNxSAQ3lShSX48I= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1999 13:24:44 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: > >The Istari were not merely taking on forms, expressions, or shapes. They were > >becoming flesh and blood. > > No difference. Yes difference. > >Tolkien did not say Yavanna *became* a tree - bark, leaves, sap and all (no bad > >jokes Michael); rather he said she "appear[ed] in the form of a tree." On the > >other hand, he says the Istari actually took on bodies on Men. > > Right up there. See where it says, "appear in the form of a great Tree"? > One cannot be in the form of a great Tree without bark, leaves, sap, and > all. If Odo takes the form of a tree, does that make him a tree? Nooooooooooo! He's still a Changeling. He LOOKS like he has bark and leaves. Lśthien Tinśviel/Ermanna the Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way! ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 09:19:20 -0400 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <37E4E2CB.317FC62B@erols.com> References: <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org> <19990918152048.05001.00000058@ngol05.aol.com> <1d0398b0.61838288@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7s1ju7$2tk_008@Org.xenite.org> <1cb3e3d0.7f7fb044@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: rwp2a6ozvTUvdOvZEIsW+dOUTYwwQRyRTZxIPOfrwZY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1999 13:24:45 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail JP wrote: > > >However they seemed to need their staves to be able > > >to use their power (and that's certainly a > > limitation): > > Gandalf did not need his staff to fight the Balrog > > with lightning and > > whatever else he tossed the critter's way. > > I know. I made that same observation in another thread. > But that only implies that Gandalf without his staff > (but with Nenya and his sword) was still powerfull > enough to kill the balrog. > It does not imply that he was as powerfull with his > staff as without it. No sword. Destroyed by Balrog's fire sword. > Joćo Paulo Lśthien Tinśviel/Ermanna the Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way! ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: 19 Sep 1999 14:59:26 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 28 Message-ID: <7s2toe$1noa$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s185q$11li$1@newsie2.cent.net> <7s1k2p$2tk_012@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 937753166 57098 140.186.80.8 (19 Sep 1999 14:59:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1999 14:59:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail In article <7s1k2p$2tk_012@Org.xenite.org>, Michael Martinez wrote: >In article <7s185q$11li$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote: >>In article <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org>, >>Michael Martinez wrote: >>> >>>There is absolutely nothing in this citation or any of the others which >>>says the Istari were diminished. >> >>By this time, I woudl have thought that everyone who reads this group >>with any regularity would know that once Michael says "You're reading >>the text wrong", the discussion is effectively over. > >That's usually because someone decides to start making personal remarks >about Michael, stupidly launching another flame war for no good reason >whatsoever. Actually, that was exactly the opposite of my intention; I was hoping to avoid one of these discussions in which everyone repeats their opinion over and over, and no progress is made. However, I really should have known better than to put it that way, and I apologize. I'll use your usual excuse, which also happens to be true of me in this case: I haven't been well lately. -- -------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)------------------------- "People in small towns have beliefs the way caves have bats." --Ursula LeGuin, _Always Coming Home_ ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:33:35 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 10 Message-ID: <7s33pj$mpe$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org> <19990918152048.05001.00000058@ngol05.aol.com> <1d0398b0.61838288@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7s1ju7$2tk_008@Org.xenite.org> <1cb3e3d0.7f7fb044@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E4E2CB.317FC62B@erols.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.65.27 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 937759347 23342 12.75.65.27 (19 Sep 1999 16:42:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1999 16:42:27 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Solinas wrote in message news:37E4E2CB.317FC62B@erols.com... > No sword. Destroyed by Balrog's fire sword. Other way around... Glamdring destroyed the fire sword. Gandalf still had Glamdring to set outside the door of the Golden Hall. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:42:53 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 36 Message-ID: <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.65.27 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 937759907 25525 12.75.65.27 (19 Sep 1999 16:51:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1999 16:51:47 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Gavin Long wrote in message news:QJ7F3.554$zo.415@news.indigo.ie... > Michael Martinez wrote in message > news:7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org... >> There is absolutely nothing in this citation or any of >> the others which says the Istari were diminished. > I am forced to agree. I always read this as meaning that > "forgoing might" was a choice the Istari had made in > order to "win the trust of Elves and Men", and to further > the aim they also clothed themselves in flesh. I am forced to wonder why everyone is ignoring the much clearer quotation which states that they were sent in physical forms to "limit" and "hinder" their use of power; "By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour. Why they should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to LIMIT and HINDER their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just do the job for them." JRRT, Letters #156 ###### From: "Gavin Long" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 15:27:26 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.207.173 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 937756656 194.125.207.173 (Sun, 19 Sep 1999 16:57:36 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 16:57:36 BST Organization: Indigo Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org... > > > >"For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe > >themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves > >and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and > >confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." > > There is absolutely nothing in this citation or any of the others which > says the Istari were diminished. > I am forced to agree. I always read this as meaning that "forgoing might" was a choice the Istari had made in order to "win the trust of Elves and Men", and to further the aim they also clothed themselves in flesh. However, should they fall from their mission, they could undo that choice, and instead, exhibit their true power as Saruman did. -- Regards, Gavin Long. ICQ: 25752165 Subscribe to my Formula 1 mailing list: www.onelist.com/subscribe/JordanF1 ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 Sep 1999 16:36:49 GMT References: <7s1arq$mkb$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990919123649.05757.00000104@ngol02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!nyc.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news.globix.net!news.idt.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nntp.psi.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s1arq$mkb$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> There is absolutely nothing in this citation or any of >> the others which says the Istari were diminished. > >Well, we've got citations saying that they must "forgo >might" and that their forms were chosen to "limit" and >"hinder" them... but nope, the word "diminished" is not >used in any that I can think of. The word "dimmed" was used however >This doesn't mean that wasn't the case, just that it is >still possible to deny it from an entirely semantic >standpoint. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 Sep 1999 16:36:49 GMT References: <7s24rh$1i8_010@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990919123649.05757.00000105@ngol02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s24rh$1i8_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>I know. I made that same observation in another thread. >>But that only implies that Gandalf without his staff >>(but with Nenya and his sword) was still powerfull >>enough to kill the balrog. > >Right. And just about ANYONE could kill a Balrog, couldn't they? :) > >On the other hand, Gandalf didn't really need his staff for anything inside >Meduseld, either. Grima Wormtongue is not a very reliable source of >information. When Gandalf raised his staff there is no evidence that it >actually enabled him to do anything he couldn't have done without it. > You're taking my position too far. Just because the Istari's power was {insert word here} doesn't mean tehy still weren't very strong. As I opined elsewhere, Gandalf was still probably the strongest being in Middle Earth, save Sauron. The point that is bodily incarnarnation may have affected his overall power should in no way mean his defeat of the Balrog is a suprise Russ ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 16:39:22 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7s3i6g$c3p$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> <05108cf7.3940e3a3@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7rve37$3ps_008@Org.xenite.org> <37E549B0.8768F0DC@arrakis.es> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.61.88 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 937774096 12409 12.75.61.88 (19 Sep 1999 20:48:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1999 20:48:16 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Javier Caselli wrote in message news:37E549B0.8768F0DC@arrakis.es... > also they were ordered to use rather their speech and > lore than force to achieve their purposes, being ordered > to do this doesn't mean that they didn't have the power > to do so. Some people seem to be confused about this > matter. Given that JRR Tolkien said they were sent in physical bodies to "limit" and "hinder" their use of power this 'confusion' is perhaps understandable. It is possible to interpret SOME of the quotations about the reduction of the Istari's power as a purely voluntary restriction (though it should be noted that MM and others have rejected THAT view as well), but not all of the things JRRT wrote about the Istari readily lend themselves to this sort of reading. As such the overall indication seems to be that they >were< reduced in power. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s377o$v4_008@Org.xenite.org> References: <7run2u$1h0_024@Org.xenite.org> <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com> <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E4E09D.EB198C1D@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 17:41:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.208 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937762998 207.224.149.208 (Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:43:18 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:43:18 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37E4E09D.EB198C1D@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> Right up there. See where it says, "appear in the form of a great Tree"? >> One cannot be in the form of a great Tree without bark, leaves, sap, and >> all. > > If Odo takes the form of a tree, does that make him > a tree? Nooooooooooo! He's still a Changeling. He > LOOKS like he has bark and leaves. Odo is not a Vala, let alone a character created by J.R.R. Tolkien for his world. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s37ak$v4_010@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s0n8d$3kc_016@Org.xenite.org> <19990918152048.05001.00000058@ngol05.aol.com> <1d0398b0.61838288@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7s1ju7$2tk_008@Org.xenite.org> <1cb3e3d0.7f7fb044@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E4E2CB.317FC62B@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 23 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 17:42:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.208 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937763090 207.224.149.208 (Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:44:50 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:44:50 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37E4E2CB.317FC62B@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >JP wrote: >> >> I know. I made that same observation in another thread. >> But that only implies that Gandalf without his staff >> (but with Nenya and his sword) was still powerfull >> enough to kill the balrog. >> It does not imply that he was as powerfull with his >> staff as without it. > > No sword. Destroyed by Balrog's fire sword. Actually, it was the Balrog's weapon which was destroyed. Gandalf hewed at the Balrog as they fell, and unless he had very long, very sharp, very strong finger nails, he would have had to use Glamdring (which he later lay by the wall outside Meduseld) to do the hewing. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <37E549B0.8768F0DC@arrakis.es> Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 22:38:08 +0200 From: Javier Caselli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> <05108cf7.3940e3a3@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7rve37$3ps_008@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.5.72.251 X-Trace: 19 Sep 1999 22:34:20 +0100, 195.5.72.251 Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newsfeed.mad.ttd.net!news.arrakis.es!195.5.72.251 Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <05108cf7.3940e3a3@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com>, JP wrote: > >It seems clear to me that the incarnation of the Istari > >is of a very different kind from the taking on of > >raiment. > > "raiment" is physical bodies. Nothing more, nothing less. And to become > and Istar a Maia would not be diminished in native strength one iota. It > was not within their power to change their own nature, and it was not > within the power (or authority) of the Valar to alter, reduce, enhance, > modify, change, minimize, maximize, pervert, or otherwise bring about some > sort of difference in the natures of their own kind. > > This whole thing has been blown WAY out of proportion. > > -- > \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org > \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! > //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] > // \\ENITE.org............................................... Good point, that was because Gandalf was sent back by Eru, and not by Manwė back to ME after his fight with the balrog, or else he could have not "broken Saruman's staff", not even Manwė could have done that without Eru's mediation. Yet the Istari could not forsake their bodies, and thus, they were subject to flesh weaknesess, also they were ordered to use rather their speech and lore than force to achieve their purposes, being ordered to do this doesn't mean that they didn't have the power to do so. Some people seem to be confused about this matter. -- "Through darkness one may come to the light" "Yet one will walk under the sun while one may" Greetings from Malaga(SPAIN) from Javier Caselli (j_caselli@arrakis.es) ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <7s377o$v4_008@Org.xenite.org> <19990920193341.20345.00000192@ng-fx1.aol.com> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 13 Date: 20 Sep 1999 16:53:54 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 937871638 207.212.198.18 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:53:58 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:53:58 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On 20 Sep 1999 23:33:41 GMT, Josie Caat wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >>Odo is not a Vala, let alone a character created by J.R.R. >Tolkien for his >world. > >Check out The Return of the Shadow...I remember that there was a character >named Odo Bolger in 'Delays Are Dangerous'. If memory serves the character was >either abandoned or Sam Gamgee replaced him. Tolkien mentioned in the Appendices to LOTR that Odo was a fairly common name for Hobbits. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:21:06 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 35 Message-ID: <7s6g1o$dpr$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> <05108cf7.3940e3a3@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7rve37$3ps_008@Org.xenite.org> <37E549B0.8768F0DC@arrakis.es> <7s3i6g$c3p$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37E6A1DB.DCFC8864@arrakis.es> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.64.5 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 937870200 14139 12.75.64.5 (20 Sep 1999 23:30:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1999 23:30:00 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Javier Caselli wrote in message news:37E6A1DB.DCFC8864@arrakis.es... > Sorry, perhaps my message can be interpreted scornful to > other's point of view, it was not my intention in any > way, but now that I read your quotation of my message, I > clearly see that the redation is not worth a nobel > prize. My most sincere apologies. Apology is uneccessary but appreciated and respected. As you did not mean offence the fault is in some sense mine for having perceived offence where none was intended. > Anyway, when I said 'confusion' I reffered to those that > think that the innate nature of the Maiar was changed > when they became Istari. Still... while >I< agree with you on this point I'd think that being called 'confused' would be less than pleasing to anyone who DOES think their innate nature was changed. Perhaps they were PERMANENTLY transformed into the physical bodies of 'men'... we have no proof I can think of that Gandalf resumed a spiritual state of being on returning to the West. I believe he did, but hey... I can't prove it. > Sorry again for any previous missunderstanding. Given what you say here I seem to have misunderstood part of your point... and I don't subscribe to the view (which a friend of mine often puts forward) that any misunderstanding is solely the fault of the communicator. ###### Message-ID: <37E68E27.B5EC15EC@po-box.mcgill.ca> From: Carl Blondin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <7run2u$1h0_024@Org.xenite.org> <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com> <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:36:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.40.159 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 937856188 206.172.40.159 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:36:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:36:28 EDT Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!news1.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: > >>And you seem to have snipped a relevant portion of the letter which > >>followed immediately on from that sentence up there: > >> > >> ...Their forms were thus expressions of their persons, powers, and > >> loves. They need not be anthropomorphic (YAVANNA wife of Aule > >> would, for instance, appear in the form of a great Tree.) But the > >> 'habitual' shapes of the Valar, when visible or clothed, were > >> anthropomorphic, because of their intense concern with Elves and > >> Men. > > > >I try not to overquote but the continuation supports my position I believe. > > No it doesn't. It stipulates that the Valar "habitually" clothed > themselves as Elves or Men. > > >The Istari were not merely taking on forms, expressions, or shapes. They were > >becoming flesh and blood. > > No difference. A play mobil doll takes on the shape of a human, somewhat, and other dolls are much more life like, but they still don't have flesh and blood... > > > >Tolkien did not say Yavanna *became* a tree - bark, leaves, sap and all (no bad > >jokes Michael); rather he said she "appear[ed] in the form of a tree." On the > >other hand, he says the Istari actually took on bodies on Men. > > Right up there. See where it says, "appear in the form of a great Tree"? > One cannot be in the form of a great Tree without bark, leaves, sap, and > all. Have you ever made a tree out out play dough? it is in the form of a tree, with enough skills it can be really life like, but still doesn't have any bark or sap or what ever... ###### Message-ID: <37E690A4.699D2982@po-box.mcgill.ca> From: Carl Blondin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s1jv8$2tk_010@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:47:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.40.159 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 937856825 206.172.40.159 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:47:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:47:05 EDT Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article , jubjub@flash.net (Lord Jubjub) wrote: > >In article <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > >Martinez) wrote: > >> > >> There is absolutely nothing in this citation or any of the others which > >> says the Istari were diminished. > > > >hmmmm. > > > >DIMMING. There's a word that is synonymous with diminish > >FORGO MIGHT. > > Nope. so how do you define them? I fail to see your basis for your argument here. Carl ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:12:34 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7s6j29$qto$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <7run2u$1h0_024@Org.xenite.org> <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com> <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E68E27.B5EC15EC@po-box.mcgill.ca> <7s6h3g$1c0_034@Org.xenite.org> <37E6CF84.4F385273@po-box.mcgill.ca> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.64.5 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 937873289 27576 12.75.64.5 (21 Sep 1999 00:21:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 1999 00:21:29 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Carl Blondin wrote in message news:37E6CF84.4F385273@po-box.mcgill.ca... > Yavanna, even when in the form of a tree did not need sap > to sustain her, she was self reliant, the Istari on the > other hand needed their blood to survive in their form, > which was a firts for any Maiar. Well, Melian's situation seems to have been the same or very similar and it could be argued that the Balrogs had the same situation. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:19:24 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7s6jf3$sp7$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <7s24rh$1i8_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990919123649.05757.00000105@ngol02.aol.com> <7s6gp1$1c0_030@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.64.5 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 937873699 29479 12.75.64.5 (21 Sep 1999 00:28:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 1999 00:28:19 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7s6gp1$1c0_030@Org.xenite.org... > There is no reason to believe the Balrog and Saruman were > less powerful than Gandalf, or that only Sauron was more > powerful than Gandalf "'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'" TT, The White Rider Dangerous might not be synonymous with powerful, but the above is certainly a reason to BELIEVE that the Balrog and Saruman were less powerful than Gandalf, and that only Sauron was more powerful then Gandalf. ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 22:00:38 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 23 Message-ID: <13859-37E6F4D6-51@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <19990920193341.20345.00000192@ng-fx1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAvL0iWZ0VXBAJny3CqLUqxjT9mXoCFHrvUUKAcELFqqqMU1aMpsVltlaZ Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Josie Caat wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >>Odo is not a Vala, let alone a character >>created by J.R.R. Tolkien for his world. >Check out The Return of the Shadow...I >remember that there was a character >named Odo Bolger in 'Delays Are >Dangerous'. If memory serves the >character was either abandoned or Sam >Gamgee replaced him. A far more canonical reference would be Odo Proudfoot, one of the guests at the Birthday Party. However, all this talk about hobbits named Odo is sidestepping Michael's original point, which was that the Star Trek character is not a character of ME, and that comparing his shape-shifting abilities to the shape-changing of the Ainur are like comparing apples and oranges --Dave ###### Message-ID: <37E6A1DB.DCFC8864@arrakis.es> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:06:35 +0200 From: Javier Caselli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien To: Conrad Dunkerson Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> <05108cf7.3940e3a3@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7rve37$3ps_008@Org.xenite.org> <37E549B0.8768F0DC@arrakis.es> <7s3i6g$c3p$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.5.71.196 X-Trace: 20 Sep 1999 23:02:46 +0100, 195.5.71.196 Lines: 50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.bt.es!news.arrakis.es!195.5.71.196 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > Javier Caselli wrote in message > news:37E549B0.8768F0DC@arrakis.es... > > > also they were ordered to use rather their speech and > > lore than force to achieve their purposes, being ordered > > to do this doesn't mean that they didn't have the power > > to do so. Some people seem to be confused about this > > matter. > > Given that JRR Tolkien said they were sent in physical > bodies to "limit" and "hinder" their use of power this > 'confusion' is perhaps understandable. > > It is possible to interpret SOME of the quotations about > the reduction of the Istari's power as a purely voluntary > restriction (though it should be noted that MM and others > have rejected THAT view as well), but not all of the things > JRRT wrote about the Istari readily lend themselves to this > sort of reading. As such the overall indication seems to > be that they >were< reduced in power. Sorry, perhaps my message can be interpreted scornful to other's point of view, it was not my intention in any way, but now that I read your quotation of my message, I clearly see that the redation is not worth a nobel prize. My most sincere apologies. :-( I post this to the NG and E-mailed to you to ensure that you receive it. Anyway, when I said 'confusion' I reffered to those that think that the innate nature of the Maiar was changed when they became Istari. Having set everything back in place(I hope...), I see that we have more or less the same point of view about this(seems to be also that of profesor Tolkien), that the Istari were limited in power just because of their physical raiment, and not because their original nature was changed in any way, for that only Eru could do. All this I also said in the part of my original message that you haven't quoted, so it's no use to repeat it all again. :-) Sorry again for any previous missunderstanding. Farewell! -- "Through darkness one may come to the light" "Yet one will walk under the sun while one may" Greetings from Malaga(SPAIN) from Javier Caselli (j_caselli@arrakis.es) ###### From: josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 20 Sep 1999 23:33:41 GMT References: <7s377o$v4_008@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990920193341.20345.00000192@ng-fx1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!oleane!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >Odo is not a Vala, let alone a character created by J.R.R. >Tolkien for his world. Check out The Return of the Shadow...I remember that there was a character named Odo Bolger in 'Delays Are Dangerous'. If memory serves the character was either abandoned or Sam Gamgee replaced him. Cheers, Josie ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s6gp1$1c0_030@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s24rh$1i8_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990919123649.05757.00000105@ngol02.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 45 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:42:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.129 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937871074 209.181.118.129 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:44:34 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:44:34 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990919123649.05757.00000105@ngol02.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7s24rh$1i8_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>I know. I made that same observation in another thread. >>>But that only implies that Gandalf without his staff >>>(but with Nenya and his sword) was still powerfull >>>enough to kill the balrog. >> >>Right. And just about ANYONE could kill a Balrog, couldn't they? :) >> >>On the other hand, Gandalf didn't really need his staff for anything inside >>Meduseld, either. Grima Wormtongue is not a very reliable source of >>information. When Gandalf raised his staff there is no evidence that it >>actually enabled him to do anything he couldn't have done without it. >> > >You're taking my position too far. Just because the Istari's power was {insert >word here} doesn't mean they still weren't very strong. As I opined elsewhere, >Gandalf was still probably the strongest being in Middle Earth, save Sauron. There is no reason to believe the Balrog and Saruman were less powerful than Gandalf, or that only Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf (and, by the same token, no reason to believe otherwise). >The point that is bodily incarnarnation may have affected his overall power >should in no way mean his defeat of the Balrog is a suprise. Bodily incarnation should have no affect on any Ainu's power. Becoming stuck in that bodily incarnation, as some of them did, appears to be a consequence of actions undertaken while in that incarnation. The contest between Gandalf and the Balrog was a struggle between two Maiar. In that sense, Gandalf was in a better position to slay a Balrog to begin with than had been Ecthelion or Glorfindel. But one need not be as strong as one's opponent in order to defeat the opponent. If that were really the case in Middle-earth, they never would have sent the Ring to the fire. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s6h04$1c0_032@Org.xenite.org> References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> <05108cf7.3940e3a3@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7rve37$3ps_008@Org.xenite.org> <37E549B0.8768F0DC@arrakis.es> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 33 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:46:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.129 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937871301 209.181.118.129 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:48:21 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:48:21 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37E549B0.8768F0DC@arrakis.es>, Javier Caselli wrote: >Good point, that was because Gandalf was sent back by Eru, and not by Manwė >back to ME after his fight with the balrog, or else he could have not "broken >Saruman's staff", not even Manwė could have done hat without Eru's >mediation. Yet the Istari could not forsake their bodies, and thus, they >were subject to flesh weaknesess, also they were ordered to use rather >their speech and lore than force to achieve their purposes, being ordered >to do this doesn't mean that they didn't have the power to do so. Some >people seem to be confused about this matter. You're assuming the Istari could not forsake their bodies. In fact, Tolkien never says any such thing. Simply assuming the shape, the body, is what subjected them to the weaknesses they had to endure. Melian subjected herself to similar weaknesses when she assumed the form of an Elf to be with Thingol (admittedly, the Elf body was probably hardier than the bodies of the Istari). It would have been contrary to their mission to abandon their bodies. This appears to be one of the reasons why Tolkien suggests at one point that Radagast failed. He was a master of shapes and hues, which implies he took on the forms of animals, and he apparently abandoned the cause against Sauron as his primary directive in order to do whatever it was he did with he animals he so loved. But none of the essays on the Istari are "authoritative" anyway. Even Tolkien's comment that Radagast failed is contradicted by a later writing. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s6h3g$1c0_034@Org.xenite.org> References: <7run2u$1h0_024@Org.xenite.org> <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com> <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E68E27.B5EC15EC@po-box.mcgill.ca> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 37 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:48:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.129 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937871409 209.181.118.129 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:50:09 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:50:09 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37E68E27.B5EC15EC@po-box.mcgill.ca>, Carl Blondin wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> No it doesn't. It stipulates that the Valar "habitually" clothed >> themselves as Elves or Men. >> >> >The Istari were not merely taking on forms, expressions, or shapes. They >> >were becoming flesh and blood. >> >> No difference. > >A play mobil doll takes on the shape of a human, somewhat, and other dolls are >much more life like, but they still don't have flesh and blood... This is not a discussion about dolls. >> >Tolkien did not say Yavanna *became* a tree - bark, leaves, sap and all (no >> >bad jokes Michael); rather he said she "appear[ed] in the form of a tree." >> >On the other hand, he says the Istari actually took on bodies on Men. >> >> Right up there. See where it says, "appear in the form of a great Tree"? >> One cannot be in the form of a great Tree without bark, leaves, sap, and >> all. > >Have you ever made a tree out out play dough? it is in the form of a tree, And yet not a tree. Yavanna was not play dough. She was an angelic being with the power to assume whatever body she desired, and often she desired to be a tree. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s6haa$1c0_036@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s1jv8$2tk_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E690A4.699D2982@po-box.mcgill.ca> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 31 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:51:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.129 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937871627 209.181.118.129 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:53:47 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:53:47 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37E690A4.699D2982@po-box.mcgill.ca>, Carl Blondin wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> In article , > jubjub@flash.net (Lord Jubjub) wrote: >> >In article <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >> >Martinez) wrote: >> >> >> >> There is absolutely nothing in this citation or any of the others which >> >> says the Istari were diminished. >> > >> >hmmmm. >> > >> >DIMMING. There's a word that is synonymous with diminish >> >FORGO MIGHT. >> >> Nope. > >so how do you define them? I fail to see your basis for your argument here. To diminish is to lessen, to reduce. To forgo might is to abstain from exercising power without reduction of one's abilities. Big difference (and "forgo might" is a phrase in any event). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s6hll$1c0_044@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s377o$v4_008@Org.xenite.org> <19990920193341.20345.00000192@ng-fx1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 24 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:57:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.129 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937871989 209.181.118.129 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:59:49 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:59:49 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , mark@pc-intouch.com wrote: >On 20 Sep 1999 23:33:41 GMT, Josie Caat wrote: >>Michael Martinez wrote: >> >>>Odo is not a Vala, let alone a character created by J.R.R. Tolkien for his >>>world. >> >>Check out The Return of the Shadow...I remember that there was a character >>named Odo Bolger in 'Delays Are Dangerous'. If memory serves the character >>was either abandoned or Sam Gamgee replaced him. > >Tolkien mentioned in the Appendices to LOTR that Odo was a fairly common name >for Hobbits. The use of the name "Odo" among hobbits really has nothing to do with the fact that we cannot use how STAR TREK portrays a changeling's abilities to gauge what a Vala is capable of and prone to do. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Sep 1999 00:14:03 GMT References: <7s6hll$1c0_044@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990920201403.20344.00000183@ng-fx1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Michael wrote: >>>>Odo is not a Vala, let alone a character created by J.R.R. Tolkien for his world. Josie wrote: >>>Check out The Return of the Shadow...I remember that there was a character named Odo Bolger in 'Delays Are Dangerous'. If memory serves the character was either abandoned or Sam Gamgee replaced him. Mark wrote: >>Tolkien mentioned in the Appendices to LOTR that Odo was a fairly common name for Hobbits. Michael wrote: >The use of the name "Odo" among hobbits really has nothing to do with the fact that we cannot use how STAR TREK portrays a changeling's abilities to gauge what a Vala is capable of and prone to do. Whoa Michael.....have a bit of mercy on those who have been deprived of power thanks to Floyd. Its hard enough catching up on all the posts and filtering out personal agendas. My original point: Tolkien _did_ use the name Odo. I didn't write a word about Star Trek. Methinks you are looking for enemies where there are none. Thanks Mark.....I'd forgotten about the LOTR appendix. Cheers, Josie ###### Message-ID: <37E6CF84.4F385273@po-box.mcgill.ca> From: Carl Blondin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <7run2u$1h0_024@Org.xenite.org> <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com> <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E68E27.B5EC15EC@po-box.mcgill.ca> <7s6h3g$1c0_034@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:15:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.40.159 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 937872920 206.172.40.159 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:15:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:15:20 EDT Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newspeer.monmouth.com!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <37E68E27.B5EC15EC@po-box.mcgill.ca>, Carl Blondin wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > > > >> No it doesn't. It stipulates that the Valar "habitually" clothed > >> themselves as Elves or Men. > >> > >> >The Istari were not merely taking on forms, expressions, or shapes. They > >> >were becoming flesh and blood. > >> > >> No difference. > > > >A play mobil doll takes on the shape of a human, somewhat, and other dolls are > >much more life like, but they still don't have flesh and blood... > > This is not a discussion about dolls. But dolls can take the shape and form of a human without having blood, if they had flesh and blood it would become an entirely different story. > > > >> >Tolkien did not say Yavanna *became* a tree - bark, leaves, sap and all (no > >> >bad jokes Michael); rather he said she "appear[ed] in the form of a tree." > >> >On the other hand, he says the Istari actually took on bodies on Men. > >> > >> Right up there. See where it says, "appear in the form of a great Tree"? > >> One cannot be in the form of a great Tree without bark, leaves, sap, and > >> all. > > > >Have you ever made a tree out out play dough? it is in the form of a tree, > > And yet not a tree. Yavanna was not play dough. She was an angelic being > with the power to assume whatever body she desired, and often she desired > to be a tree. My understanding was that she took the form of a tree (therefore the play dough allusion) A form represents something, but does not necessarilly have all it's atributes. It has the appeaance right, but if you probe deeper than the surface you find physical differences. Yavanna, even when in the form of a tree did not need sap to sustain her, she was self reliant, the Istari on the other hand needed their blood to survive in their form, which was a firts for any Maiar. Carl ###### Message-ID: <37E6D02A.A4EEE252@po-box.mcgill.ca> From: Carl Blondin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s1jv8$2tk_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E690A4.699D2982@po-box.mcgill.ca> <7s6haa$1c0_036@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:18:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.40.159 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 937873086 206.172.40.159 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:18:06 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:18:06 EDT Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!news1.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <37E690A4.699D2982@po-box.mcgill.ca>, Carl Blondin wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > > > >> In article , > > jubjub@flash.net (Lord Jubjub) wrote: > >> >In article <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > >> >Martinez) wrote: > >> >> > >> >> There is absolutely nothing in this citation or any of the others which > >> >> says the Istari were diminished. > >> > > >> >hmmmm. > >> > > >> >DIMMING. There's a word that is synonymous with diminish > >> >FORGO MIGHT. > >> > >> Nope. > > > >so how do you define them? I fail to see your basis for your argument here. > > To diminish is to lessen, to reduce. To forgo might is to abstain from > exercising power without reduction of one's abilities. Big difference (and > "forgo might" is a phrase in any event). Alright, but I beleive most people here are saying that the Istari did not lose their power, rather they lost the ability to use some of their power while in flesh and blood. Carl ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s6jk0$1c0_052@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s6hll$1c0_044@Org.xenite.org> <19990920201403.20344.00000183@ng-fx1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 27 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:30:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.129 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937873984 209.181.118.129 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:33:04 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:33:04 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990920201403.20344.00000183@ng-fx1.aol.com>, josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) wrote: >Michael wrote: > >>>>>Odo is not a Vala, let alone a character created by J.R.R. Tolkien for his >>>>>world. The above comment was written in reply to someone (I forget whom) who argued something about the abilities of Odo on STAR TREK. [snip of successive quotes] >Whoa Michael.....have a bit of mercy on those who have been deprived of power >thanks to Floyd. Its hard enough catching up on all the posts and filtering >out personal agendas. My original point: Tolkien _did_ use the name Odo. I >didn't write a word about Star Trek. Methinks you are looking for enemies >where there are none. Thanks Mark.....I'd forgotten about the LOTR appendix. I know where the discussion diverged into STAR TREK, but I have no idea of how it got OFF of STAR TREK. Nonetheless, because my quote was apparently being carried forward out of context, I felt I should restore the context. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s6jmd$1c0_054@Org.xenite.org> References: <7run2u$1h0_024@Org.xenite.org> <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com> <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E68E27.B5EC15EC@po-box.mcgill.ca> <7s6h3g$1c0_034@Org.xenite.org> <37E6CF84.4F385273@po-box.mcgill.ca> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:32:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.129 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937874061 209.181.118.129 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:34:21 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:34:21 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37E6CF84.4F385273@po-box.mcgill.ca>, Carl Blondin wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> This is not a discussion about dolls. > >But dolls can take the shape and form of a human without having blood, if they >had flesh and blood it would become an entirely different story. Dolls are not Valar, Valar are not dolls. Hence, discussing the abilities of dolls really has no relevance to discussing the abilities of the Valar. When Yavanna took the form of a tree, she BECAME a tree. It is that simple and need not be complicated by comparisons to things outside of Tolkien's world. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s6joa$1c0_056@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s1jv8$2tk_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E690A4.699D2982@po-box.mcgill.ca> <7s6haa$1c0_036@Org.xenite.org> <37E6D02A.A4EEE252@po-box.mcgill.ca> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:33:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.129 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937874121 209.181.118.129 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:35:21 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:35:21 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.novia.net.MISMATCH!novia!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37E6D02A.A4EEE252@po-box.mcgill.ca>, Carl Blondin wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> To diminish is to lessen, to reduce. To forgo might is to abstain from >> exercising power without reduction of one's abilities. Big difference (and >> "forgo might" is a phrase in any event). > >Alright, but I beleive most people here are saying that the Istari did not lose >their power, rather they lost the ability to use some of their power while in >flesh and blood. If they did so, it was not as a consequence of taking on bodies of flesh and blood. It would have been a consequence of some other action. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 56 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Sep 1999 01:09:11 GMT References: <7s6gp1$1c0_030@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990920210911.07272.00000049@ngol04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s6gp1$1c0_030@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>You're taking my position too far. Just because the Istari's power was >{insert >>word here} doesn't mean they still weren't very strong. As I opined >elsewhere, >>Gandalf was still probably the strongest being in Middle Earth, save Sauron. > >There is no reason to believe the Balrog and Saruman were less powerful >than Gandalf, or that only Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf (and, by >the same token, no reason to believe otherwise). There's some note in Letters that said Sauron was of a far higher order than Gandalf. Re Saruman vs. Gandalf (Grey), I'm relying on Varda's statment, "not the third." As the White he was obviously more powerful. As to the Balrog, well considering Olorin "won" while in a human body, I'll give the nod to Olorin assuming they were in their angelic state. > >>The point that is bodily incarnarnation may have affected his overall power >>should in no way mean his defeat of the Balrog is a suprise. > >Bodily incarnation should have no affect on any Ainu's power. Well, that's the crux of the disagreement . I agree that raiment would have no effect, but we still have a disagreement whether the Istari's incarnation was more profound than taking on raiment or other lesser incarnations. > Becoming >stuck in that bodily incarnation, as some of them did, appears to be a >consequence of actions undertaken while in that incarnation. For some, yes. >The contest between Gandalf and the Balrog was a struggle between two >Maiar. In that sense, Gandalf was in a better position to slay a Balrog to >begin with than had been Ecthelion or Glorfindel. But one need not be as >strong as one's opponent in order to defeat the opponent. If that were >really the case in Middle-earth, they never would have sent the Ring to the >fire. True. There are also different types of power. Not all power is fighting skills. Morgoth didn't seem to be a particualarly great warrior as shown by his battle with Fingolfin. Considering he could yawn and make a mountain range, I expected better of him. Eonwe, a maia, was greatest in arms in Middle Earth. Does that mean he could beat a Vala in a fight? There's other variables at play. I think you pointed out in another message that Melian apparently fully incarnated, but in an Elf body. That would presumably be more rugged than a human body. Though a maia, Gandalf may have been more physically vulnerable than an Elf. I dunno. Just food for thought. Russ ###### From: jubjub@flash.net (Lord Jubjub) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Distribution: world Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Message-ID: References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s1jv8$2tk_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E690A4.699D2982@po-box.mcgill.ca> <7s6haa$1c0_036@Org.xenite.org> <37E6D02A.A4EEE252@po-box.mcgill.ca> <7s6joa$1c0_056@Org.xenite.org> Organization: The Kingdom of the Absurd X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 30 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:41:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.30.64.77 X-Complaints-To: abuse@flash.net X-Trace: news.flash.net 937881706 209.30.64.77 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:41:46 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:41:46 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.flash.net!news.flash.net!not-for-mail In article <7s6joa$1c0_056@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > In article <37E6D02A.A4EEE252@po-box.mcgill.ca>, Carl Blondin wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> To diminish is to lessen, to reduce. To forgo might is to abstain from > >> exercising power without reduction of one's abilities. Big difference (and > >> "forgo might" is a phrase in any event). > > > >Alright, but I beleive most people here are saying that the Istari did not lose > >their power, rather they lost the ability to use some of their power while in > >flesh and blood. > > If they did so, it was not as a consequence of taking on bodies of flesh > and blood. It would have been a consequence of some other action. Alright, now I'm agreeing with you. Just because they became flash and blood doesn't mean their power was reduced or made inaccessible. But their power WAS reduced and made partly inaccessible as part of their participation as an Istari. They willingly allowed their power to be reduced. For them to restore themselves to their former level and freedom of power would violate their conditions of residency. Thus Gandalf, empowered by Illuvatar, permanently reduced Saruman because Saruman tried to exceed the boundaries. When Saruman's body was killed by Grima, the maiar spirit, freed from its chains, looked to the West to see if he could get his power back. His request was denied and his spirit was dispersed. -- Lord Jubjub, Ruler of the Jabberwocky, Guardian of the Wabe ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s7b0k$i8_012@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s1jv8$2tk_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E690A4.699D2982@po-box.mcgill.ca> <7s6haa$1c0_036@Org.xenite.org> <37E6D02A.A4EEE252@po-box.mcgill.ca> <7s6joa$1c0_056@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 51 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 07:10:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.185 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937897932 207.224.149.185 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:12:12 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:12:12 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , jubjub@flash.net (Lord Jubjub) wrote: >In article <7s6joa$1c0_056@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >> If they did so, it was not as a consequence of taking on bodies of flesh >> and blood. It would have been a consequence of some other action. > >Alright, now I'm agreeing with you. Just because they became flash and >blood doesn't mean their power was reduced or made inaccessible. But >their power WAS reduced and made partly inaccessible as part of their >participation as an Istari... I don't believe this case has been made. Gandalf did a fair job of destroying a mountainside in his "weakened" state. That the form he took was "weak and humble" does not mean he lost his power. >...They willingly allowed their power to be reduced. No. Their power wasn't reduced one iota. Who would be doing this reducing? The Valar? It was beyond their ability to do so. Iluvatar? He didn't alter the nature of his creations -- not to reduce them, at least. What the Istari did was FORGO MIGHT. They refused to use their full power. >...For them to restore themselves to their former level and freedom >of power would violate their conditions of residency... None of the essays state the Istari were forbidden to give up the mission and go home. >...Thus Gandalf, empowered by Illuvatar, permanently reduced Saruman >because Saruman tried to exceed the boundaries. When Saruman's body was >killed by Grima, the maiar spirit, freed from its chains, looked to the >West to see if he could get his power back. His request was denied and >his spirit was dispersed. WHY Saruman's spirit looked toward the West is not given. The way Tolkien explains the effects of physical death on the self-Incarnated, however, I would not conclude that was Saruman's reason. I agree that Iluvatar empowered Gandalf to strip Saruman of his authority, but unless that staff contained some of Saruman's power, Gandalf could not in any way diminish Saruman's strength. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s7bf0$i8_014@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s6gp1$1c0_030@Org.xenite.org> <19990920210911.07272.00000049@ngol04.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 73 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 07:17:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.185 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937898391 207.224.149.185 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:19:51 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:19:51 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990920210911.07272.00000049@ngol04.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7s6gp1$1c0_030@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>You're taking my position too far. Just because the Istari's power was >>>{insert word here} doesn't mean they still weren't very strong. As I >>>opined elsewhere, Gandalf was still probably the strongest being in >>>Middle Earth, save Sauron. >> >>There is no reason to believe the Balrog and Saruman were less powerful >>than Gandalf, or that only Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf (and, by >>the same token, no reason to believe otherwise). > >There's some note in Letters that said Sauron was of a far higher order than >Gandalf. Re Saruman vs. Gandalf (Grey), I'm relying on Varda's statment, "not >the third." As the White he was obviously more powerful. As to the Balrog, >well considering Olorin "won" while in a human body, I'll give the nod to >Olorin assuming they were in their angelic state. As far as I know, there were only the two orders: Valar and Maiar. Both Gandalf and Sauron were Maiar. The only letter I can think of which might have anything to say on the matter would be Letter 246: Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron] -- being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.... But who wins a battle doesn't determine which of the combatants has the greater power. >>>The point that is bodily incarnarnation may have affected his overall power >>>should in no way mean his defeat of the Balrog is a suprise. >> >>Bodily incarnation should have no affect on any Ainu's power. > >Well, that's the crux of the disagreement . I agree that raiment would have >no effect, but we still have a disagreement whether the Istari's incarnation >was more profound than taking on raiment or other lesser incarnations. There is nothing in the texts you cited which indicates it was any more profound than the self-incarnations of other Ainur. All the Ainur were subject to death while in a physical form. That was how Manwe and Namo were able to execute Melkor. >>The contest between Gandalf and the Balrog was a struggle between two >>Maiar. In that sense, Gandalf was in a better position to slay a Balrog to >>begin with than had been Ecthelion or Glorfindel. But one need not be as >>strong as one's opponent in order to defeat the opponent. If that were >>really the case in Middle-earth, they never would have sent the Ring to the >>fire. > >True. There are also different types of power. Not all power is fighting >skills. Morgoth didn't seem to be a particualarly great warrior as shown by >his battle with Fingolfin. Considering he could yawn and make a mountain >range, I expected better of him. Eonwe, a maia, was greatest in arms in >Middle Earth. Does that mean he could beat a Vala in a fight? Morgoth was quite self-diminished by having spread his power thinly throughout Arda and other creatures by the time he fought Finfgolfin. It would have required many ages of "rest" for him to recover anything like his former strength of old, when he could oppose all the Valar and undo their great works. The only diminishment Tolkien speaks of is that where an Ainu displaces part of his native strength, as Melkor and Sauron did. The Istari are not said to have done that (except, it appears, Saruman). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:44:07 -0400 Lines: 31 Message-ID: <37E78B9D.EA7B999A@erols.com> References: <7run2u$1h0_024@Org.xenite.org> <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com> <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E68E27.B5EC15EC@po-box.mcgill.ca> <7s6h3g$1c0_034@Org.xenite.org> <37E6CF84.4F385273@po-box.mcgill.ca> <7s6jmd$1c0_054@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ZWD8NRkAkfrhnx3wEvqTtUETfQ10oP+4lXGEtIogbS0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 1999 20:22:31 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <37E6CF84.4F385273@po-box.mcgill.ca>, Carl Blondin wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> > >> This is not a discussion about dolls. > > > >But dolls can take the shape and form of a human without having blood, if they > >had flesh and blood it would become an entirely different story. > > Dolls are not Valar, Valar are not dolls. Hence, discussing the abilities > of dolls really has no relevance to discussing the abilities of the Valar. > > When Yavanna took the form of a tree, she BECAME a tree. It is that simple > and need not be complicated by comparisons to things outside of Tolkien's > world. OK, you want Tolkien conparisons? You got'em. By your reasoning, when Morgoth escaped from Valinor in the shape of a cloud, he BECAME a cloud; when any of the Valar or Maiar take humanoid form, they ARE humanoids. Is that what you mean? And, no, I'm not flaming you. Lśthien Tinśviel/Ermanna the Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way! ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Sep 1999 12:11:53 GMT References: <7s7bf0$i8_014@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990921081153.06414.00000171@ngol07.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.cwix.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nntp.psi.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s7bf0$i8_014@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>There's some note in Letters that said Sauron was of a far higher order than >>Gandalf. Re Saruman vs. Gandalf (Grey), I'm relying on Varda's statment, >"not >>the third." As the White he was obviously more powerful. As to the Balrog, >>well considering Olorin "won" while in a human body, I'll give the nod to >>Olorin assuming they were in their angelic state. > >As far as I know, there were only the two orders: Valar and Maiar. Both >Gandalf and Sauron were Maiar. The only letter I can think of which might >have anything to say on the matter would be Letter 246: > > Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron] -- > being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, > an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.... > >But who wins a battle doesn't determine which of the combatants has the >greater power. > Note in Letter 183: "Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order" Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Sep 1999 12:11:53 GMT References: <7s7b0k$i8_012@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990921081153.06414.00000170@ngol07.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!205.231.82.12!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s7b0k$i8_012@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>Alright, now I'm agreeing with you. Just because they became flash and >>blood doesn't mean their power was reduced or made inaccessible. But >>their power WAS reduced and made partly inaccessible as part of their >>participation as an Istari... > >I don't believe this case has been made. Gandalf did a fair job of >destroying a mountainside in his "weakened" state. That the form he took >was "weak and humble" does not mean he lost his power. Gandalf didn't destroy the mountainsaide. It was destroyed by the Balrog's fall: "I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin." Russ ###### Message-ID: <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 84 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:46:43 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.144 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 937914434 194.125.145.144 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:47:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:47:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news.be.easynet.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > Gavin Long wrote in message > news:QJ7F3.554$zo.415@news.indigo.ie... > > > Michael Martinez wrote in message > > news:7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org... > > >> There is absolutely nothing in this citation or any of > >> the others which says the Istari were diminished. > > > I am forced to agree. I always read this as meaning that > > "forgoing might" was a choice the Istari had made in > > order to "win the trust of Elves and Men", and to further > > the aim they also clothed themselves in flesh. > > I am forced to wonder why everyone is ignoring the much > clearer quotation which states that they were sent in > physical forms to "limit" and "hinder" their use of power; > > "By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical > bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting > the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', > though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure > long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour. > Why they should take such a form is bound up with the > 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this > fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose > was precisely to LIMIT and HINDER their exhibition of > 'power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do > what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, > arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron > to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just do > the job for them." > JRRT, Letters #156 Agreed. Moreover, one cannot can say there was no dimunition to their power after reading of teh following "But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." Knowledge is power, and lack of same at the level of operation of the Maiar and Valar is fatal, as shown by Saruman's history. Much of the "power" of the Maiar seems to come from their deeper knowledge of Arda from the Music of the Ainur. Knowledge like this, clear in Aman, muddled in their Istaric forms, naturally produce a de facto reduction in power, especially in techniques of using what native power remained to them as Istari, regardless of the overall reduction in native power itself. Part of Sarumans' problem was the character flaw of pride, a point emphasised by contrast in the depiction of Gandalf, Aragorn and Frodo, the prime movers of the offensive against Sauron, as being unprideful, modest, acutely aware of their own limitations. Saruman did not accept his own embodied failings and tried to match power with power, failing partly because of the limitations of perception and knowledge the fleshly form he himself had undertaken. Gandalf, a peer of Sauron in Aman, several times makes reference to his comparative weakness in his incarnation as Gandalf in Middle Earth, barely able to divert Saurons half blind groping towards Frodo at Rauros, while thanking his lucky stars he hadn't been revealed to him by peering in the Stone of Orthanc before Pippin did. Both the above encounters occur after he was sent back "for a time until my task is done" i.e when he was the newly empowered Gandalf the White. So the limitations were kept in place even in his second incarnation as an Istari. The argument seem pretty conclusive. Sauron was playing with a full deck, because while the Ring was extant, his native power was available to him in Middle Earth; Barad Dur, raised with that power still stood; he could, even after a crushing defeat, take power and shape again. None of the Istari had access to their full power, as far as we know. M. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Sep 1999 14:27:22 GMT References: <19990921081153.06414.00000171@ngol07.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990921102722.06736.00000278@ngol01.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!solomon.io.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <19990921081153.06414.00000171@ngol07.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) writes: >Note in Letter 183: > >"Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order" > Errrr. I might have typoed that. For some reason I thought the letter was in the 200's. If its not Letter 183, try 283. (I'm at work now and cannot check the text) Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 16 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:52:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.113 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937940101 207.224.147.113 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:55:01 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:55:01 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!newsfeed.eurocyber.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: >Moreover, one cannot can say there was no dimunition to their power >after reading of teh following > >"But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and >confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." There was no dimunition of their power. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s8kae$278_012@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s7bf0$i8_014@Org.xenite.org> <19990921081153.06414.00000171@ngol07.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 32 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:55:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.113 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937940240 207.224.147.113 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:57:20 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:57:20 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990921081153.06414.00000171@ngol07.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7s7bf0$i8_014@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>As far as I know, there were only the two orders: Valar and Maiar. Both >>Gandalf and Sauron were Maiar. The only letter I can think of which might >>have anything to say on the matter would be Letter 246: >> >> Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron] -- >> being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, >> an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.... >> >>But who wins a battle doesn't determine which of the combatants has the >>greater power. >> > >Note in Letter 183: > >"Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order" Thank you. Tolkien is not clear about what he means here, but somehow I don't think he had "order" as in "Valar and Maiar" in mind. I vaguely recall a past discussion where someone once tried to rank the Ainur according to the Catholic rankings for angels. I wonder if this was one of his or her sources? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s8kbv$278_014@Org.xenite.org> References: <19990921081153.06414.00000171@ngol07.aol.com> <19990921102722.06736.00000278@ngol01.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:55:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.113 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937940288 207.224.147.113 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:58:08 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:58:08 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990921102722.06736.00000278@ngol01.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <19990921081153.06414.00000171@ngol07.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com >(McREsq) writes: > >>Note in Letter 183: >> >>"Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order" >> > >Errrr. I might have typoed that. For some reason I thought the letter was in >the 200's. If its not Letter 183, try 283. (I'm at work now and cannot check >the text) No, it's definitely Letter 183 on page 243. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s8km7$278_016@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s7b0k$i8_012@Org.xenite.org> <19990921081153.06414.00000170@ngol07.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 50 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:01:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.113 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937940616 207.224.147.113 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:03:36 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:03:36 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990921081153.06414.00000170@ngol07.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7s7b0k$i8_012@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>Alright, now I'm agreeing with you. Just because they became flash and >>>blood doesn't mean their power was reduced or made inaccessible. But >>>their power WAS reduced and made partly inaccessible as part of their >>>participation as an Istari... >> >>I don't believe this case has been made. Gandalf did a fair job of >>destroying a mountainside in his "weakened" state. That the form he took >>was "weak and humble" does not mean he lost his power. > >Gandalf didn't destroy the mountainsaide. It was destroyed by the Balrog's >fall: "I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the >mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin." He most certainly did. Or call it a mountain peak, if you must: There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages sngs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back in broken tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke arose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. 'Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone.... (From "The White Rider" in THE TWO TOWERS) -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Sep 1999 19:42:07 GMT References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!pitt.edu!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>"But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and >>confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." > >There was no dimunition of their power. Only to the extent you believe wisdom and knowledge isn't power or a compnent thereof. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Sep 1999 19:42:13 GMT References: <7s8kae$278_012@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990921154213.08641.00000148@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s8kae$278_012@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>"Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order" > >Thank you. Tolkien is not clear about what he means here, but somehow I >don't think he had "order" as in "Valar and Maiar" in mind. I vaguely >recall a past discussion where someone once tried to rank the Ainur >according to the Catholic rankings for angels. I wonder if this was one of >his or her sources? > Another passage comes to mind describing the maiar stating that they had a broad range of power, some nigh even to the Valar. As an educated guess, I put Sauron, Eonwe, Melian (only because that Girdle seems a pretty neat trick) and perhaps Ungoliante in this category. Olorin was apparently pretty strong but not as high as that group. He stated he was afraid of Sauron. I have the gut reaction that most of the balrogs were originally fairly minor angelic spirits. I agree that in the note quoted Tolkien was not using "order" in the sense of the entire angelic order. He was using the term more generically to hint at a continnum of power within the Maia. Re the Catholic thing, I didn't know there were different orders of angels other than there being archangels and reguar angels. Other than that I know of no other differentiation. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 56 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Sep 1999 19:42:33 GMT References: <7s8km7$278_016@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990921154233.08641.00000149@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s8km7$278_016@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>>>Alright, now I'm agreeing with you. Just because they became flash and >>>>blood doesn't mean their power was reduced or made inaccessible. But >>>>their power WAS reduced and made partly inaccessible as part of their >>>>participation as an Istari... >>> >>>I don't believe this case has been made. Gandalf did a fair job of >>>destroying a mountainside in his "weakened" state. That the form he took >>>was "weak and humble" does not mean he lost his power. >> >>Gandalf didn't destroy the mountainsaide. It was destroyed by the Balrog's >>fall: "I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the >>mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin." > >He most certainly did. Or call it a mountain peak, if you must: > > There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before > it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the > world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped > in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst > into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after > ages sngs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' > Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? > Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was > crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they > said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back in broken tongues > of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke arose about us, > vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, > and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side > where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I > strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads > that I will not tell. > > 'Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until my task is > done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind > was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was > choked with burned and broken stone.... > (From "The White Rider" in THE TWO TOWERS) OK...how are you reading "...and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin"? It seems clear to me, the Balrog took out the mountain side in his fall. Let me use the dreaded analogy. If I punch somone and they fall back on a table and the table breaks, it is the person's fall that breaks the table. In a sense, it is my punch that sends the person falling into the table, but the table is broken due to the falling weight of the person I hit. That is analogous to what happened in Gandalf's battle. Gandalf smites the Balrog...Balrog falls into mountain side and breaks it. It was the force and weight and expended power of the falling balrog that broke the mountainside, not some direct application of force by Gandalf. Russ ###### Message-ID: <37E7F965.EFCBA4F1@arrakis.es> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 23:32:21 +0200 From: Javier Caselli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <19990917115330.01077.00000477@ngol06.aol.com> <05108cf7.3940e3a3@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7rve37$3ps_008@Org.xenite.org> <37E549B0.8768F0DC@arrakis.es> <7s3i6g$c3p$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37E6A1DB.DCFC8864@arrakis.es> <7s6g1o$dpr$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.5.74.77 X-Trace: 21 Sep 1999 23:28:33 +0100, 195.5.74.77 Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.mad.ttd.net!news.arrakis.es!195.5.74.77 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > Given what you say here I seem to have misunderstood part > of your point... and I don't subscribe to the view (which > a friend of mine often puts forward) that any > misunderstanding is solely the fault of the communicator. Hehehe! no, I don't sucribe to that view either, but this time the greatest fault was definitively mine, anyway I apreciate your reply, see you round. -- "Through darkness one may come to the light" "Yet one will walk under the sun while one may" Greetings from Malaga(SPAIN) from Javier Caselli (j_caselli@arrakis.es) ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:11:56 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 45 Message-ID: <7s93sm$73k$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.57.177 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 937956054 7284 12.79.57.177 (21 Sep 1999 23:20:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 1999 23:20:54 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org... > There was no dimunition of their power. Why did you snip the quotation which continues to be ignored by everyone of the 'they were not reduced / diminished / weakened' view? I've posted two quotations saying that there was a difference between the 'raiment' of the Ainur and true physical bodies and one saying that the Istari were sent in physical bodies to limit and hinder their use of power... yet I continue to see claims that the raiment of the Ainur was identical to physical incarnation and that there was no limitation (beyond a voluntary one) on the power of the Istari - without ANY effort to address the quotations which seem to indicate the contrary. So, one more time. Could someone of the 'they were not weakened' and/or 'raiment is physical' views please address how the following quotations fit into those beliefs; "Why they [the Istari] should take such a form [physical bodies] is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to LIMIT and HINDER their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane.." JRR Tolkien, Letter #156 "The Valar had no bodies, but could assume shapes. After the coming of the Eldar they most often used shapes of 'human' form, though taller (not gigantic) and more magnificent." JRR Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring - The Annals of Aman pg 69 "...for the visible form of the Valar proceeds from their own will and with regard to their true being is to be likened rather to the chosen raiment of Elves and Men than to their bodies." JRR Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring - The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II) pg 218 ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:37:32 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7s95cm$dag$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <7s8kae$278_012@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154213.08641.00000148@ngol03.aol.com> <7s942a$1fo_006@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.57.177 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 937957590 13648 12.79.57.177 (21 Sep 1999 23:46:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 1999 23:46:30 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7s942a$1fo_006@Org.xenite.org... > But IIRC the previously referred to thread began when > someone proposed a similarity between the nine orders of > angels and a breakdown of the Ainur. Aha, nine! And Catholic. That'd probably be the Thomas Aquinas reckoning; Seraphim Cherubim Thrones Dominations Virtues Powers Principalities Archangels Angels ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:39:29 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7s95gb$dop$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <7s8km7$278_016@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154233.08641.00000149@ngol03.aol.com> <7s9456$1fo_008@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.57.177 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 937957707 14105 12.79.57.177 (21 Sep 1999 23:48:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 1999 23:48:27 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7s9456$1fo_008@Org.xenite.org... > Russ, look at the ruin Gandalf describes after he > returns. Which is generally attributed to the Balrog's fall, but >could< have been as a result of the battle. In which case it would still presumably be only HALF Gandalf's doing... and it's a stairway / tower rather than a mountainside as originally stated. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:49:15 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7s962l$g9s$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <7s92s7$329$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19990921194540.07956.00000086@ngol01.aol.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.57.177 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 937958293 16700 12.79.57.177 (21 Sep 1999 23:58:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 1999 23:58:13 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!attmtf!ip.att.net!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail McREsq wrote in message news:19990921194540.07956.00000086@ngol01.aol.com... > What are these sources? This is all new to me. I knew > those Jesuits were tricking me . I've heard of > seraphim and cherubim. And I know innocents, martyrs and > confessors, but never in the context of angels. Heh... well, that particular listing was from Francis Barrett, The Magus (1801)... probably NOT what the church would consider an official source. :) I've since then listed Aquinas's reckoning from Summa Theologica. There is also Dante's listing from the Divina Comedia (virtually identical to Aquinas's... think he swapped Archangels and Principalities), Saint Ambrose's Apologia of the Prophet David, the Zohar (Exodus I think), and I'm sure I could dig up a few others if I worked at it. ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Lines: 75 Bytes: 2587 X-Originating-Host: 171.64.194.32 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> X-Wren-Trace: eCsOJic+eTN4YSwiIH8lMRkrLy8gKWQvKmkhLDd/Yzx1Yz1+azpncWl5fQ== Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:02:28 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.9 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 937969221 10.0.2.9 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:00:21 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:00:21 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail > At this point in the fabulous history the > purpose was precisely to LIMIT and HINDER their > exhibition of power' on the physical plane, and > so that they should do > what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, > instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those > threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own > strengths; and not just do the job for them." > JRRT, Letters #156 That settles it. Although the incarnation apparently had an undesirable side effect: a reduction of wisdom and knowledge was certainly not a good idea when their mission was to "train, advise, instruct" Anyway, the fight of Gandalf with the Balrog shows that there was not a big limitation in their use of power. Specially since it seems the staves increased their power. > Much of the "power" of the Maiar seems to come from > their deeper > knowledge of Arda from the Music of the Ainur. How did you reach that conclusion? I only remember a reference to prophecy being related to knowledge of the music. > Knowledge like this, clear in Aman, muddled in their > Istaric forms, > naturally produce a de facto reduction in power, > especially in > techniques of using what native power remained to them > as Istari, > regardless of the overall reduction in native power > itself. I don't see how their native power could suffer any reduction. > Saruman did not accept his own embodied failings and > tried to match > power with power, failing partly because of the > limitations of > perception and knowledge the fleshly form he himself > had undertaken. That doesn't seem to follow from LotR. Sauron was from a much higher order as a Maiar. Saruman didn't need to be reduced to be inferior to Sauron. > Gandalf, a peer of Sauron in Aman, several times makes > reference to his > comparative weakness in his incarnation as Gandalf in > Middle Earth, > barely able to divert Saurons half blind groping > towards Frodo at > Rauros, The situation seems quite symetric to me: None of them knew where Frodo was, they were both far away. And Gandalf diverted Sauron's groping only indirectly: he induced Frodo to take out the ring. > while thanking his lucky stars he hadn't been > revealed to him by > peering in the Stone of Orthanc before Pippin did. Sauron was already more powerfull than Olorin before the later became a Istari. Joćo Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s93r3$1fo_002@Org.xenite.org> References: <7run2u$1h0_024@Org.xenite.org> <19990918001649.02188.00002846@ng-fi1.aol.com> <7rveae$3ps_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E68E27.B5EC15EC@po-box.mcgill.ca> <7s6h3g$1c0_034@Org.xenite.org> <37E6CF84.4F385273@po-box.mcgill.ca> <7s6jmd$1c0_054@Org.xenite.org> <37E78B9D.EA7B999A@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 42 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 23:20:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.149 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937956136 209.181.119.149 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:22:16 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:22:16 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37E78B9D.EA7B999A@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> When Yavanna took the form of a tree, she BECAME a tree. It is that simple >> and need not be complicated by comparisons to things outside of Tolkien's >> world. > > OK, you want Tolkien conparisons? You got'em. By your reasoning, > when Morgoth escaped from Valinor in the shape of a cloud, he > BECAME a cloud; ...Thereater the watch was redoubled along the northern fences of Aman; but to no purpose, for ere ever the pursuit set out Melkor had turned back, and in secrecy passed away far to the south. For he was yet as one of the Valar, and could change his form, or walk unclad, as could his brethren; thoug that power he was soon to lose for ever.... Now Melkor came to Avathar and south her out; and he put on again the form that he had word as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible. In that form remained ever after.... A cloak of darkness she wove about them when Melkor and Ungoliant set forth: an Unlight, in which things seemed to be no more, and which eyes could not pierce, for it was void.... (From "Of the Darkening of Valinor" in THE SILMARILLION) > ...when any of the Valar or Maiar take humanoid form, > they ARE humanoids. Is that what you mean? And, no, I'm not flaming you. Yes, that is what I mean. Their spirits, however, remain Ainurian spirits. They do not become Men or Elves in nature, but only in body. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s93u5$1fo_004@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 25 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 23:21:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.149 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937956233 209.181.119.149 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:23:53 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:23:53 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>"But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and >>>confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." >> >>There was no dimunition of their power. > >Only to the extent you believe wisdom and knowledge isn't power or a compnent >thereof. Call it strength, or native ability to shape the fabric of Ea. The knowledge to use that strength or native ability (what Tolkien referred to as a sub-creative faculty in his letters, but which is usually referred to as "magic") was separate and distinct from the power itself. The argument that "knowledge is power" is a digression. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s942a$1fo_006@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s8kae$278_012@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154213.08641.00000148@ngol03.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 23:23:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.149 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937956367 209.181.119.149 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:26:07 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:26:07 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990921154213.08641.00000148@ngol03.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >Re the Catholic thing, I didn't know there were different orders of angels >other than there being archangels and reguar angels. Other than that I know of >no other differentiation. I'm not Catholic myself, and not having studied the Catholic faith feel no authority in speaking about it. But IIRC the previously referred to thread began when someone proposed a similarity between the nine orders of angels and a breakdown of the Ainur. I don't know if there are actually nine orders of angels in Catholicism or if the idea comes from elsewhere. I do know there is a list of "creatures" or "orders" in the New Testament which has probably given rise to all sorts of interpretations through the years. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s9456$1fo_008@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s8km7$278_016@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154233.08641.00000149@ngol03.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 30 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 23:25:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.149 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937956458 209.181.119.149 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:27:38 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:27:38 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990921154233.08641.00000149@ngol03.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7s8km7$278_016@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>Gandalf didn't destroy the mountainsaide. It was destroyed by the Balrog's >>>fall: "I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the >>>mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin." >> >>He most certainly did. Or call it a mountain peak, if you must: [snip] >> 'Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until my task is >> done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind >> was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was >> choked with burned and broken stone.... >> (From "The White Rider" in THE TWO TOWERS) > >OK...how are you reading "...and he fell from the high place and broke the >mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin"? It seems clear to me, the Balrog >took out the mountain side in his fall. Russ, look at the ruin Gandalf describes after he returns. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 40 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Sep 1999 23:45:40 GMT References: <7s92s7$329$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990921194540.07956.00000086@ngol01.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s92s7$329$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> Re the Catholic thing, I didn't know there were different >> orders of angels other than there being archangels and >> reguar angels. Other than that I know of no other >> differentiation. > >There are several different classification systems >(depending on your source). The most extensive I'm >familiar with would be; > >1. Order of Seraphim >2. Order of Cherubim >3. Order of Thrones >4. Order of Dominations >5. Order of Powers >6. Order of Virtues >7. Order of Principalities >8. Order of Archangels >9. Order of Angels >10. Order of Innocents >11. Order of Martyrs >12. Order of Confessors > >This is of course a later conception where humans would >'become' angels after their deaths. Also, paradoxically, >the seven (or four, or whatever) Archangels were considered >the most powerful of angels (of the order of Seraphim)... >quite apart from the 'Order of Archangels'. There are >other names and slightly different orderings but that's >most of the rankings. > What are these sources? This is all new to me. I knew those Jesuits were tricking me . I've heard of seraphim and cherubim. And I know innocents, martyrs and confessors, but never in the context of angels. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Sep 1999 23:57:17 GMT References: <7s93u5$1fo_004@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990921195717.07956.00000093@ngol01.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s93u5$1fo_004@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>Only to the extent you believe wisdom and knowledge isn't power or a >compnent >>thereof. > >Call it strength, or native ability to shape the fabric of Ea. The >knowledge to use that strength or native ability (what Tolkien referred to >as a sub-creative faculty in his letters, but which is usually referred to >as "magic") was separate and distinct from the power itself. > >The argument that "knowledge is power" is a digression. That's why I didn't explicitly say it Let's go with what you said in the first paragraph and find some common ground. Assuming arguendo that the Istaris' raw power remained undiminished, their ability to *use* it would nonetheless be decreased by the dimming of their knowledge and wisdom. I think I used the word "dampened" in earlier posts. By that I tried to convey the idea the the raw overall power still existed but was partially unaccessable due to the dimming of certain qualities resulting from bodily incarnation. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Sep 1999 23:57:18 GMT References: <7s942a$1fo_006@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990921195718.07956.00000094@ngol01.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s942a$1fo_006@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>Re the Catholic thing, I didn't know there were different orders of angels >>other than there being archangels and reguar angels. Other than that I know >of >>no other differentiation. > >I'm not Catholic myself, and not having studied the Catholic faith feel no >authority in speaking about it. But IIRC the previously referred to thread >began when someone proposed a similarity between the nine orders of angels >and a breakdown of the Ainur. I don't know if there are actually nine >orders of angels in Catholicism or if the idea comes from elsewhere. > >I do know there is a list of "creatures" or "orders" in the New Testament >which has probably given rise to all sorts of interpretations through the >years. > Sounds like Revelation. I've never been able to get through that... Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Sep 1999 23:57:18 GMT References: <7s9456$1fo_008@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990921195718.07956.00000095@ngol01.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7s9456$1fo_008@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>> 'Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until my task is >>> done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind >>> was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was >>> choked with burned and broken stone.... >>> (From "The White Rider" in THE TWO TOWERS) >> >>OK...how are you reading "...and he fell from the high place and broke the >>mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin"? It seems clear to me, the >Balrog >>took out the mountain side in his fall. > >Russ, look at the ruin Gandalf describes after he returns. I think you're going to have to speak slowly and enunciate clearly again. All I see from that passage is that after Gandalf was sent back and looked around and saw the tower and stair ruined. I'm not quite sure how that bears on what broke the mountainside. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s9jai$vk_010@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s93u5$1fo_004@Org.xenite.org> <19990921195717.07956.00000093@ngol01.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 03:44:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.149 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937971983 209.181.119.149 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:46:23 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:46:23 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990921195717.07956.00000093@ngol01.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >Let's go with what you said in the first paragraph and find some common ground. > Assuming arguendo that the Istaris' raw power remained undiminished, their >ability to *use* it would nonetheless be decreased by the dimming of their >knowledge and wisdom. Fair enough. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s9jds$vk_012@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s9456$1fo_008@Org.xenite.org> <19990921195718.07956.00000095@ngol01.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 31 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 03:46:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.149 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937972089 209.181.119.149 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:48:09 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:48:09 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990921195718.07956.00000095@ngol01.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7s9456$1fo_008@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: >>>OK...how are you reading "...and he fell from the high place and broke the >>>mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin"? It seems clear to me, the >>>Balrog took out the mountain side in his fall. >> >>Russ, look at the ruin Gandalf describes after he returns. > >I think you're going to have to speak slowly and enunciate clearly again. If I weren't so busy sneezing and blowing my nose and telling myself how life miserable is, I'd have quoted more for you. >All I see from that passage is that after Gandalf was sent back and looked >around and saw the tower and stair ruined. I'm not quite sure how that bears >on what broke the mountainside. The "stair" was the Endless Stair, which ran from the bottom of Moria up through the mountainside and emerged onto that now-destroyed ledge or "window". A significant portion of the mountain was destroyed (or at least rearranged) during Gandalf's 11-day battle with the Balrog. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7s9jfj$vk_014@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s942a$1fo_006@Org.xenite.org> <19990921195718.07956.00000094@ngol01.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 03:46:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.149 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937972145 209.181.119.149 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:49:05 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:49:05 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990921195718.07956.00000094@ngol01.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7s942a$1fo_006@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: >> >>I do know there is a list of "creatures" or "orders" in the New Testament >>which has probably given rise to all sorts of interpretations through the >>years. >> > >Sounds like Revelation. I've never been able to get through that... No, no. I'm thinking of one of the epistles, but I can't remember which one. Conrad's list sounds vaguely familiar, however (I saw it through your message). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <37E8C634.2D890BFC@po-box.mcgill.ca> From: Carl Blondin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <7s93u5$1fo_004@Org.xenite.org> <19990921195717.07956.00000093@ngol01.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:00:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.40.159 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 938001601 206.172.40.159 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:00:01 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:00:01 EDT Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!news1.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > In article <7s93u5$1fo_004@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > Martinez) writes: > > >>Only to the extent you believe wisdom and knowledge isn't power or a > >compnent > >>thereof. > > > >Call it strength, or native ability to shape the fabric of Ea. The > >knowledge to use that strength or native ability (what Tolkien referred to > >as a sub-creative faculty in his letters, but which is usually referred to > >as "magic") was separate and distinct from the power itself. > > > >The argument that "knowledge is power" is a digression. > > That's why I didn't explicitly say it > > Let's go with what you said in the first paragraph and find some common ground. > Assuming arguendo that the Istaris' raw power remained undiminished, their > ability to *use* it would nonetheless be decreased by the dimming of their > knowledge and wisdom. > > I think I used the word "dampened" in earlier posts. By that I tried to convey > the idea the the raw overall power still existed but was partially unaccessable > due to the dimming of certain qualities resulting from bodily incarnation. > I think this is the best way to put my feelings also. I'm glad you found it cause I'll be gone for a few days again, so I wouldn't have been able to answer to any replies... Carl ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sb2r5$3pk_012@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s93sm$73k$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 31 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:15:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.102 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938020651 209.181.119.102 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:17:31 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:17:31 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de>, Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de wrote: >"...for the visible form of the Valar proceeds from their >own will and with regard to their true being is to be >likened rather to the chosen raiment of Elves and Men than >to their bodies." >Again no problem there. The physical manifestation of the Valar >clearly proceeds from their own will, after all they could (with >exceptions when weakened) change it at will. And this visible form is >indeed more like the raiment of Elves and Men than their bodies: after >all, Elves and Men cannot change their bodies at will and go >automatically to Mandos when it is slain, wheras their raiment (like >the visible form of the Valar) can be changed at will as often as they >like though this (as the visible form of the Valar) is restricted when >they are weakened (unable to move etc.) > >So I don't see that your quotes solve the question whether the >"raiment" of the Ainur was indeed nothing else than true physical >bodies one way or the other. There is no "question" concerning this matter. As usual, some people are reading things into the text which simply aren't there. The Istari were not diminished in power -- neither they nor the Valar could accomplish such a thing, and all the "raiment" Tolkien refers to is indeed the taking on of physical bodies. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: arain02@FSUNI.rz.uni-passau.de (Karim Arain) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 19:34:56 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Lines: 96 Distribution: world Message-ID: <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s93sm$73k$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de NNTP-Posting-Host: news.rz.uni-passau.de X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!f.de.uu.net!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!news.rz.uni-passau.de!132.231.41.167 On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:11:56 -0400, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message >news:7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org... > >> There was no dimunition of their power. > >Why did you snip the quotation which continues to be >ignored by everyone of the 'they were not reduced / >diminished / weakened' view? > >I've posted two quotations saying that there was a >difference between the 'raiment' of the Ainur and true >physical bodies and one saying that the Istari were sent >in physical bodies to limit and hinder their use of >power... yet I continue to see claims that the raiment of >the Ainur was identical to physical incarnation and that >there was no limitation (beyond a voluntary one) on the >power of the Istari - without ANY effort to address the >quotations which seem to indicate the contrary. > >So, one more time. Could someone of the 'they were not >weakened' and/or 'raiment is physical' views please address >how the following quotations fit into those beliefs; > >"Why they [the Istari] should take such a form [physical >bodies] is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' >Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the >fabulous history the purpose was precisely to LIMIT and >HINDER their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane.." >JRR Tolkien, Letter #156 No comment on that. I agree with you there. >"The Valar had no bodies, but could assume shapes. After >the coming of the Eldar they most often used shapes of >'human' form, though taller (not gigantic) and more >magnificent." >JRR Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring - The Annals of Aman pg 69 > >"...for the visible form of the Valar proceeds from their >own will and with regard to their true being is to be >likened rather to the chosen raiment of Elves and Men than >to their bodies." >JRR Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring - The Later Quenta Silmarillion >(II) pg 218 I don't quite see how any of this contradicts the "raiment of the Ainur = physical body" view. (Mind: I don't say it supports it either!) Let's see: "The Valar had no bodies, but they could assume shapes" Fair enough. They had no bodies, they were spirits, their true beings existed on the spiritual plane of existence. They could assume shapes, that means they could appear visible on the material plane, could manifest themselves on the material plane. "After the coming of the Eldar they most often used shapes of 'human' form, though taller (not gigantic) and more magnificent." Again no proof one way ore another. They used manifestations on the material plane that were of roughly human form. Note that Tolkien didn't say that these shapes simply LOOKED human. So "shapes of human form" could very well mean they manifested themselves on the material plane as fully functional human bodies (the human "form" being not only outwardly but also "inwardly" human i.e. with organs etc. ). "...for the visible form of the Valar proceeds from their own will and with regard to their true being is to be likened rather to the chosen raiment of Elves and Men than to their bodies." Again no problem there. The physical manifestation of the Valar clearly proceeds from their own will, after all they could (with exceptions when weakened) change it at will. And this visible form is indeed more like the raiment of Elves and Men than their bodies: after all, Elves and Men cannot change their bodies at will and go automatically to Mandos when it is slain, wheras their raiment (like the visible form of the Valar) can be changed at will as often as they like though this (as the visible form of the Valar) is restricted when they are weakened (unable to move etc.) So I don't see that your quotes solve the question whether the "raiment" of the Ainur was indeed nothing else than true physical bodies one way or the other. Ciao. Karim --------------------------------------- Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you. ###### Message-ID: <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 124 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:40:27 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.140 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938029259 194.125.145.140 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:40:59 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:40:59 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail JP wrote: > > > At this point in the fabulous history the > > purpose was precisely to LIMIT and HINDER their > > exhibition of power' on the physical plane, and > > so that they should do > > what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, > > instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those > > threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own > > strengths; and not just do the job for them." > > JRRT, Letters #156 > > That settles it. Although the incarnation apparently had > an undesirable side effect: a reduction of wisdom and > knowledge was certainly not a good idea when their mission > was to "train, advise, instruct" I suspect they were not required to "train, advise, instruct" people in how to weild the powers of a Maiar, but more general stuff such as resisting Sauron. > Anyway, the fight of Gandalf with the Balrog shows that > there was not a big limitation in their use of power. > Specially since it seems the staves increased their power. > > > Much of the "power" of the Maiar seems to come from > > their deeper > > knowledge of Arda from the Music of the Ainur. > > How did you reach that conclusion? > I only remember a reference to prophecy > being related to knowledge of the music. Well, lets see. I'm interpreting, for one. I'm assuming that a knowledge of how Arda was meant to be "put together" as a creation allows an insight as to how things relate to and depend on each other, and that knowledge like that to a Maiar is like a How and Why to a scientist. > > Knowledge like this, clear in Aman, muddled in their > > Istaric forms, > > naturally produce a de facto reduction in power, > > especially in > > techniques of using what native power remained to them > > as Istari, > > regardless of the overall reduction in native power > > itself. > > I don't see how their native power could > suffer any reduction. What use is power if it can't be applied correctly. Allow me recall teh definitions of Work and Energy as explained to me by my dear old Physics teacher back in secondary school; Their is a chair in the centre of a room. The given task is to move the chair to the corner. The first person heaves and grunts and puffs and sweats for twenty minutes but cannot move the chair. Much Energy [= Power] is expended :-)- no work is done. The second person, a smaller-built guy, unscrews the bolt holding the chair to the floor [for such is the case] and moves the chair to the corner. Very little energy is expended - but the work is done. Moral: Energy [= power] is pretty useless without the knowledge to apply it correctly. I hope this answers your query. If the knowledge is reduced, any given level of poer cannot be used as efficiently as before. > > Saruman did not accept his own embodied failings and > > tried to match > > power with power, failing partly because of the > > limitations of > > perception and knowledge the fleshly form he himself > > had undertaken. > > That doesn't seem to follow from LotR. Sauron was from a > much higher order as a Maiar. You're not paying attention ;-). Saruman was a "peer" of Sauron. "Peer" = "equal to"; i.e. he was his equal in Aman, but became enfeebled when incarnated as a Man. > Saruman didn't need to be > reduced to be inferior to Sauron. Yes he did. See above. > > Gandalf, a peer of Sauron in Aman, several times makes > > reference to his > > comparative weakness in his incarnation as Gandalf in > > Middle Earth, > > barely able to divert Saurons half blind groping > > towards Frodo at > > Rauros, > > The situation seems quite symetric to me: > None of them knew where Frodo was, > they were both > far away. And Gandalf diverted Sauron's groping > only indirectly: he induced Frodo to take out the ring. It was the effect of the battle I was referring to; Gandalf was completely knackered after it. > > while thanking his lucky stars he hadn't been > > revealed to him by > > peering in the Stone of Orthanc before Pippin did. > > Sauron was already more powerfull than Olorin > before the later became a Istari. Eh nope. Re-read the original quotations higher up this thread. Gandalf was his "peer". Look it up in a dictionary. > Joćo Paulo > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: MIchael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:41:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.102 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938033013 209.181.119.102 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:43:33 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:43:33 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> There was no dimunition of their power. > >Well, you asked for it, and this one's going to be a classic. > >Define "power". Their native strength. *HEH* -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:01:05 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.150 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938030497 194.125.145.150 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:01:37 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:01:37 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > >Moreover, one cannot can say there was no dimunition to their power > >after reading of teh following > > > >"But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and > >confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." > > There was no dimunition of their power. Well, you asked for it, and this one's going to be a classic. Define "power". *heh* M. ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Message-ID: References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 9 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:17:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.71.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 938035033 208.170.71.10 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:17:13 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:17:13 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > > >Moreover, one cannot can say there was no dimunition to their power > > There was no dimunition of their power. Dimunition? Is that when you take all your munitions and throw them in the bottom of the deep blue sea? "See, this is new"? There is nothing new under the sun. ###### Message-ID: <37E98221.3D3ADE18@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.150 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 938049549 206.161.15.150 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:19:09 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:19:09 EDT Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:28:01 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael O'Neill wrote: ... > Eh nope. Re-read the original quotations higher up this thread. Gandalf > was his "peer". Look it up in a dictionary. "peer" doesn't mean "of equal power"; it means "of equal rank". There can be very large differences in power between beings of equal rank. ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> Lines: 174 Bytes: 5743 X-Originating-Host: 171.66.101.84 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> X-Wren-Trace: eK6Lo6K7/Lb95KmnpfqgtJyuqqqlrOGqr+ykqbL65rnw5rj57r/r8ez3/g== Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 22:17:09 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.16 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 938063560 10.0.2.16 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 22:12:40 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 22:12:40 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail > > That settles it. Although the incarnation apparently > > had > > an undesirable side effect: a reduction of wisdom and > > knowledge was certainly not a good idea when their > > mission > > was to "train, advise, instruct" > I suspect they were not required to "train, advise, > instruct" people in > how to weild the powers of a Maiar, I don't think that would be possible. The power of a Maiar seemed to be something intrinsic to his/her nature, not something that could be taught. If I were to sing the same song that Yavanna sang when she created the 2 trees, no tree would appear. > but more general > stuff such as > resisting Sauron. But unless the reduction in knowledge was selective, it would hinder their ability to train and instruct. And it seems a really strange idea to me that the incarnation would produce a selective reduction in knowledge. And a reduction in wisdom would definitely affect their ability to advise. > > > Much of the "power" of the Maiar seems to come from > > > their deeper > > > knowledge of Arda from the Music of the Ainur. > > > > How did you reach that conclusion? > > I only remember a reference to prophecy > > being related to knowledge of the music. > Well, lets see. I'm interpreting, for one. I'm > assuming that a knowledge > of how Arda was meant to be "put together" as a > creation allows an > insight as to how things relate to and depend on each > other, and that > knowledge like that to a Maiar is like a How and Why > to a scientist. But the Valar were the ones that put Arda together. A knowledge of how it was put together wouldn't help them to raise mountains and form seabeds. > > I don't see how their native power could > > suffer any reduction. > What use is power if it can't be applied correctly. Are you thinking about the Sorcerer's Apprentice? It is still power, it will have its effects on the world, even if those are not the desired effects. Such a limitation would be really dangerous. I don't think the Valar would do it (on purpose at least). > Allow me recall teh > definitions of Work and Energy as explained to me by > my dear old Physics > teacher back in secondary school; > Their is a chair in the centre of a room. The given > task is to move the > chair to the corner. > The first person heaves and grunts and puffs and > sweats for twenty > minutes but cannot move the chair. > Much Energy [= Power] is expended :-)- no work is done. > The second person, a smaller-built guy, unscrews the > bolt holding the > chair to the floor [for such is the case] and moves > the chair to the > corner. > Very little energy is expended - but the work is done. > Moral: Energy [= power] is pretty useless without the > knowledge to apply > it correctly. > I hope this answers your query. I'm not sure if I understood your point. Are you saying they needed knowledge to use their power? The same way as we need knowledge to turn on a TV? And that they could loose that knowledge, the same way someone could unlearn how to walk? Interesting. I don't remember anything that supports it though. Except maybe some reference about the blue wizards starting some magical traditions. I don't remember the quote. Anyway the above situation is very diferent. The guy had not the innate strength (power) to lift the chair while attached to the floor and was not smart enough to see the problem. So we don't have any limitaion on the guy's ability to use his whole strength. Only a limitation on how effectively he was able to use it. > If the knowledge is > reduced, any given > level of poer cannot be used as efficiently as before. But that puts no restriction on the use of power. There are only restrictions on the effectiveness of its use. What Tolkien states is different: their incarnation limited and hindered their exhibition of power. > > > Gandalf, a peer of Sauron in Aman, several times > > > makes > > > reference to his > > > comparative weakness in his incarnation as Gandalf > > > in > > > Middle Earth, > > > barely able to divert Saurons half blind groping > > > towards Frodo at > > > Rauros, > > > > The situation seems quite symetric to me: > > None of them knew where Frodo was, > > they were both > > far away. And Gandalf diverted Sauron's groping > > only indirectly: he induced Frodo to take out the > ring. > It was the effect of the battle I was referring to; > Gandalf was > completely knackered after it. The ring was much closer to Frodo than Gandalf..... and Gandalf was fighting with Frodo's desire to keep the ring, not with Sauron. > > > while thanking his lucky stars he hadn't been > > > revealed to him by > > > peering in the Stone of Orthanc before Pippin did. > > > > Sauron was already more powerfull than Olorin > > before the later became a Istari. > Eh nope. Re-read the original quotations higher up > this thread. Gandalf > was his "peer". Look it up in a dictionary. I did. One of the meanings is "One belonging to the same societal group especially based on age, grade, or status" That says simply that Saruman, Gandalf and Sauron were all Maiar. That is the way the word is used in the Valaquenta at least: "The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his begining Melkor;" "For he [Melkor] coveted Arda and all that was in it, desiring the kingship of Manwe and dominion over the realms of his PEERS." Joćo Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Message-ID: <37E95281.C41E4E56@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:04:49 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.134 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938037920 194.125.145.134 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:05:20 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:05:20 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail David Salo wrote: > > In article <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > > > > >Moreover, one cannot can say there was no dimunition to their power > > > There was no dimunition of their power. > > Dimunition? Is that when you take all your munitions and throw them in > the bottom of the deep blue sea? > > "See, this is new"? There is nothing new under the sun. Lookit. I just responded to a lot of threads about decommissioning IRA weapons this week okay!!! :-) *heh* M. ###### Message-ID: <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:05:10 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.134 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938037941 194.125.145.134 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:05:41 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:05:41 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> There was no dimunition of their power. > > > >Well, you asked for it, and this one's going to be a classic. > > > >Define "power". > > Their native strength. > > *HEH* Nope. *heh heh* M. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Sep 1999 23:35:39 GMT References: <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990922193539.08460.00000107@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org>, MIchael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>Define "power". > >Their native strength. > >*HEH* What does quoting James Brown have to do with this discussion? Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: MIchael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sbrjo$3jc_004@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 30 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:18:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.81 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938046004 209.181.118.81 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 19:20:04 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 19:20:04 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> In article <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill > wrote: >> >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> There was no dimunition of their power. >> > >> >Well, you asked for it, and this one's going to be a classic. >> > >> >Define "power". >> >> Their native strength. >> >> *HEH* > >Nope. Yup. Hahahahaha! -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: MIchael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sbrko$3jc_006@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> <19990922193539.08460.00000107@ngol05.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:18:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.81 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938046036 209.181.118.81 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 19:20:36 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 19:20:36 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990922193539.08460.00000107@ngol05.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org>, MIchael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>Define "power". >> >>Their native strength. >> >>*HEH* > >What does quoting James Brown have to do with this discussion? I FEEL GOOD! -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sceqc$15s_004@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 17 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 05:45:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.250 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938065683 209.181.118.250 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:48:03 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:48:03 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com>, JP wrote: >But unless the reduction in knowledge was selective, >it would hinder their ability to train and instruct. [big HUGE long snip] Highly unlikely. The knowledge was buried in the Istari's memories, but not required for them to advise Elves and Men in the struggle against Sauron. Knowing how to shape worlds isn't one of the prerequisite skills for a counselor. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: MIchael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7scr7d$is_004@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s93sm$73k$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7sb2r5$3pk_012@Org.xenite.org> <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 14 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:17:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.250 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938078383 209.181.118.250 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:19:43 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:19:43 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de>, Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de wrote: >About the Istari not being diminished in power, well there is still >Letter #156: No, there is not. Limiting EXHIBITIONS of power "on the physical plane" in no way implies that the Istari were diminished in their native strength. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie> <7sbrjo$3jc_004@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:45:16 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.131 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938090747 194.125.145.131 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:45:47 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:45:47 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > > > >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> > >> In article <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill > > wrote: > >> >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> >> There was no dimunition of their power. > >> > > >> >Well, you asked for it, and this one's going to be a classic. > >> > > >> >Define "power". > >> > >> Their native strength. > >> > >> *HEH* > > > >Nope. > > Yup. > > Hahahahaha! Oh dear. Well, I'll give you a small clue. Its in your physics paper as a required definition. M. ###### Message-ID: <37EA3727.DB9666E8@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie> <7sbrjo$3jc_004@Org.xenite.org> <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:20:23 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.142 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938096454 194.125.145.142 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:20:54 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:20:54 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Michael O'Neill wrote: > > Michael Martinez wrote: > > > > In article <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > > > > > >Michael Martinez wrote: > > >> > > >> In article <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill > > > wrote: > > >> >Michael Martinez wrote: > > >> >> There was no dimunition of their power. > > >> > > > >> >Well, you asked for it, and this one's going to be a classic. > > >> > > > >> >Define "power". > > >> > > >> Their native strength. > > >> > > >> *HEH* > > > > > >Nope. > > > > Yup. > > > > Hahahahaha! > > Oh dear. Well, I'll give you a small clue. Its in your physics paper as > a required definition. > > M. Opps, nearly forgot. *hah* M. ###### From: arain02@FSUNI.rz.uni-passau.de (Karim Arain) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:21:21 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Lines: 40 Distribution: world Message-ID: <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s93sm$73k$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7sb2r5$3pk_012@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de NNTP-Posting-Host: news.rz.uni-passau.de X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!news.rz.uni-passau.de!132.231.41.167 On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:15:17 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >In article <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de>, Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de wrote: [SNIP] >>So I don't see that your quotes solve the question whether the >>"raiment" of the Ainur was indeed nothing else than true physical >>bodies one way or the other. > >There is no "question" concerning this matter. As usual, some people are >reading things into the text which simply aren't there. The Istari were >not diminished in power -- neither they nor the Valar could accomplish such >a thing, and all the "raiment" Tolkien refers to is indeed the taking on of >physical bodies. Well, I didn't say the "question" whether the "raiment" Tolkien refers to is the taking on of physical bodies is unanswered. I just said that HIS CITATIONS don't answer it one way or another. About the Istari not being diminished in power, well there is still Letter #156: At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to LIMIT and HINDER their exhibition of power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just do the job for them." So the Istari definitely were "limited" and "hindered" in using their power (at least on the physical plane), not just willingly refraining from doing so. Ciao. Karim --------------------------------------- Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sdol5$cc_018@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie> <7sbrjo$3jc_004@Org.xenite.org> <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:39:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.245 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938108528 207.224.149.245 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:42:08 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:42:08 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> Hahahahaha! > > >Oh dear. Well, I'll give you a small clue. Its in your physics paper as >a required definition. Here's a more relevant clue: Tolkien identified "power" with "native strength". -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Reader Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> Lines: 59 Bytes: 2025 X-Originating-Host: 192.132.24.66 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> X-Wren-Trace: eHxZcXBpLmQvL1d1RjZyZ2puYllxdyhneHl/MXZnaHwiI24zI287PCIpNi8k Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:29:49 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.20 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 938151172 10.0.2.20 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:32:52 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:32:52 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: > Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>> "But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and >>> knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and >>> weariness coming from the flesh." >> >> There was no dimunition of their power. > > Only to the extent you believe wisdom and knowledge > isn't power or a component thereof. Nam et ipsa, scientia potestas est. (For and in itself, knowledge is power.) . . . Francis Bacon I'd take "limit" and "hinder" as referring to power. The apt questioning here, I suspect, is on the order of Gandalf's response to Bilbo's initial "Good Morning". Michael, _what_do_you_mean_by_"dimunition"_? Is it the same as "diminution" = "diminishing"? If so, what exactly would you agree constitutes diminution? Or is this a form of "di-" (twice) "munition" (weaponry), thus meaning in context "There was no doubling of their weaponry"? If so, I think your correspondents would agree. More seriously, in what senses of "diminish" (or of "power") would being "limited" and "hindered" not diminish power? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Not to set in stone, but just as an example of definitions: Cambridge International Dictionaries Online http://www.cup.cam.ac.uk/elt/dictionary/default.asp limit verb [T] To limit something is to control it so that it is not greater than a particular amount, number or level. limitation noun [U] Limitation is the act of controlling and esp. reducing something. hinder verb [T] to limit the ability of (someone) to do something, or to limit the development of (something) hindrance noun A hindrance is something which makes it more difficult for someone to do something or for something to develop. diminish verb to reduce or be reduced in size or importance * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: Reader Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <2a1814d4.a57feced@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> Lines: 54 Bytes: 2466 X-Originating-Host: 192.132.24.66 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sf3tc$3pg_056@Org.xenite.org> X-Wren-Trace: ePve9vfuqeOoqNDywbH14O3p5d728K/g//74tvHg7/ulpOm0pOi8u6Wusaij Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:43:41 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.20 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 938159205 10.0.2.20 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:46:45 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:46:45 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!carrier1.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: (*-*'s added) > Reader wrote: > >> ... what exactly would you agree constitutes diminution? > > Any reduction in the *native* strength or ability of the > Ainur who took on the bodies of Men in order to become > Istari would be a diminishment of their beings (and > therefore an incorrect interpretation of the texts). > They cannot be reduced in their *native* strength, unless > they choose (as Melkor and Sauron did) to impart that > strength of their own free will into something else. I think making this distinction earlier might have avoided much of the debate. I doubt that any of your correspondents were claiming the Istari would retain these "limits" and "hindrances" *after* their time in the forms of mortal Men. The "power" that was diminished was the strength that could be *expressed* _while_they_were_embodied_as_Men_; not their "native" strength, but their *available* or *applicable* strength _in_that_situation_. Put another way, they were not in their "native" forms then. Several times in this conversation, shapechanging has been given as an example of the powers the bodiless beings have. But the Istari, while embodied, do not employ this power, and indeed the use of it would be to abandon the forms of the bodies they wore - thus they could not, by definition, be *both* shapechangers *and* embodied as Men; it would be a contradiction in terms. Likewise, as bodiless beings they had the power to act in many ways without ever tiring, while embodied they had the limits and hindrances of fatigue; as bodiless beings could not be imprisoned in a tower, while embodied they could be (as Gandalf was, until an eagle carried him out). Surely the unembodied Ainur could fly? So *usable* strength, not "native" strength, is the issue. If Gandalf's power was not diminished, how could a mere tower imprison him? Or do you say he *chose* to stay there? Another analogy to consider; may it fare better than others: A mortal Man, "limited" and "hindered" by the wearing of a straitjacket, might not be "diminished" in his *native* strength, but surely you will agree he is diminished in the ability to do some things - until the jacket is removed. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: Reader Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <018ed270.bb3b59bd@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> Lines: 23 Bytes: 875 X-Originating-Host: 192.132.24.66 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sf3tc$3pg_056@Org.xenite.org> X-Wren-Trace: eJazm5qDxI7Fxb2frNyYjYCEiLObncKNkpOV25yNgpbIyYTZyYXR1sjD3MXO Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 02:07:00 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.20 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 938164061 10.0.2.20 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 02:07:41 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 02:07:41 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: (*-*'s added) > Reader wrote: > >> ... what exactly would you agree constitutes diminution? > > Any *reduction* in the native strength or ability... And yet, as provided, the definition of limitation includes (especially) "reduction"; and JRRT says they *were* limited. > They cannot be reduced in their native strength, *unless* > they *choose* (as Melkor and Sauron did) to impart that > strength of their own free will into something else. But did they not *choose* to undertake this mission, with the limitations and hindrances of their assigned bodies? Thus they *chose* to be reduced, diminished, in powers. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: Reader Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <008c54e2.ca304aa8@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> Lines: 40 Bytes: 1894 X-Originating-Host: 192.132.24.66 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sf3tc$3pg_056@Org.xenite.org> <2a1814d4.a57feced@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sfep2$38s_006@Org.xenite.org> X-Wren-Trace: eBQxGRgBRgxHRz8dLl4aDwIGCjEZH0APEBEXWR4PABRKSwZbSwdTVEpBXkdM Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 03:04:20 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.20 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 938167644 10.0.2.20 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 03:07:24 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 03:07:24 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Webmaster@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > Reader wrote: > > >The "power" that was diminished was the strength that >> could be *expressed* _while_they_were_embodied_as_Men_; >> not their "native" strength, but their *available* or >> *applicable* strength _in_that_situation_. > > No, they were not diminished in this respect, either. > They REFRAINED from expressing their power -- they did not > lose any of it. Gandalf clearly revealed some of that > great power in his confrontation with the Balrog. An > ordinary man simply cannot drop portions of mountains > on other creatures, or destroy ancient stone bridges, or > fight a powerful creature like a Balrog for eleven days. You have established that he was more powerful than "an ordinary man", but this does not demonstrate that he was fully as powerful as when he was a bodiless Ainur, that he "did not lose *any* of" his original powers while embodied. You did not address that example of his limitations, his inability to escape from the tower-top until the eagle came. Are the Ainur so easily restrained? Can't they fly? Such examples could be multiplied. His need for a horse, thus taking time to catch Shadowfax when speed was of the essence. Being stuck in a tree with Bilbo and the dwarves when the wolves attacked - he threw fire at them and killed many, but an Ainur could have killed them all or even done something else entirely, harmlessly restrained them or sent them away by sheer will... which, given his remarks to Frodo about mercy to Gollum, would seem preferable if possible. Without the eagles, what would have been the outcome there? Will you say he *chose* that, too? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sf3tc$3pg_056@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 48 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 05:58:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.102 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938152693 207.224.147.102 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:58:13 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:58:13 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!HSNX.callatg.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com>, Reader wrote: >I'd take "limit" and "hinder" as referring to power. > >The apt questioning here, I suspect, is on the order of >Gandalf's response to Bilbo's initial "Good Morning". > >Michael, _what_do_you_mean_by_"dimunition"_? > >Is it the same as "diminution" = "diminishing"? Yes. Dimunition is a typo. >If so, what exactly would you agree constitutes diminution? Any reduction in the native strength or ability of the Ainur who took on the bodies of Men in order to become Istari would be a diminishment of their beings (and therefore an incorrect interpretation of the texts). They cannot be reduced in their native strength, unless they choose (as Melkor and Sauron did) to impart that strength of their own free will into something else. The bulk of Melkor's strength survived his death, and so Tolkien seemed pretty sure he would eventually become strong enough to took a new form (probably even recover most of his original strength). Sauron's strength (or power) was mostly stored in the One Ring, and when that was destroyed it was apparently dissipated forever so that Sauron would not ever again have the power to take shape. There is no indication that the Istari gave up a part of their strength by putting it in something (in fact, Tolkien stated that such an externalization of power could enhance it, and this factor would then work against the very idea that the Istari might have deprived themselves of some of their strength). All they did was become old Men. They didn't become weak old Men. They became old Men with Ainurian spirits. One obvious aspect of their nature was their longevity. They couldn't die "naturally" because it wasn't in their nature to do so. Their spirits were bound to Ea until the end of Time. All that Tolkien wrote concerning the needs and weaknesses they were subject to was intended to emphasize that the bodies were indeed real bodies and not illusions. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Webmaster@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sfep2$38s_006@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sf3tc$3pg_056@Org.xenite.org> <2a1814d4.a57feced@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 41 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:03:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.197 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938163827 207.224.149.197 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:03:47 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:03:47 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <2a1814d4.a57feced@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com>, Reader wrote: >Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: (*-*'s added) >> Reader wrote: >> >>> ... what exactly would you agree constitutes diminution? >> >> Any reduction in the *native* strength or ability of the >> Ainur who took on the bodies of Men in order to become >> Istari would be a diminishment of their beings (and >> therefore an incorrect interpretation of the texts). >> They cannot be reduced in their *native* strength, unless >> they choose (as Melkor and Sauron did) to impart that >> strength of their own free will into something else. > >I think making this distinction earlier might have avoided >much of the debate. I doubt that any of your correspondents >were claiming the Istari would retain these "limits" and >"hindrances" *after* their time in the forms of mortal Men. This is not the first time I've made the point, however. But as so often happens in these debates, I've been trying to refine my statements so as to make the points clearer. >The "power" that was diminished was the strength that could >be *expressed* _while_they_were_embodied_as_Men_; not their >"native" strength, but their *available* or *applicable* >strength _in_that_situation_. No, they were not diminished in this respect, either. They REFRAINED from expressing their power -- they did not lose any of it. Gandalf clearly revealed some of that great power in his confrontation with the Balrog. An ordinary man simply cannot drop portions of mountains on other creatures, or destroy ancient stone bridges, or fight a powerful creature like a Balrog for eleven days. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <0ec4c663.35e4b54a@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> Lines: 49 Bytes: 1586 X-Originating-Host: 171.66.101.84 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sf3tc$3pg_056@Org.xenite.org> <2a1814d4.a57feced@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sfep2$38s_006@Org.xenite.org> X-Wren-Trace: eE5rQ0JbHFYdBElHRRpAVHxOSkpFTAFKTwxESVIaBlkQBlgZDl8LEQwXHg== Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:10:03 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.16 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 938225136 10.0.2.16 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:05:36 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:05:36 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!carrier1.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail > >> They cannot be reduced in their *native* strength, > >> unless > >> they choose (as Melkor and Sauron did) to impart > >> that > >> strength of their own free will into something else. > > > >I think making this distinction earlier might have > >avoided > >much of the debate. I doubt that any of your > >correspondents > >were claiming the Istari would retain these "limits" > >and > >"hindrances" *after* their time in the forms of > >mortal Men. I've seen that claim several times with respect to Saruman. And that seems to imply Saruman put his strenth into something else. And Gandalf fight with the Balrog argues against that "something else" being his staff. > >The "power" that was diminished was the strength that > >could > >be *expressed* _while_they_were_embodied_as_Men_; not > >their > >"native" strength, but their *available* or > >*applicable* > >strength _in_that_situation_. > No, they were not diminished in this respect, either. > They REFRAINED from > expressing their power -- they did not lose any of it. How do you interpret then Tolkien's letter where he says the purpose of the incarnation was to limit and hinder their exhibition of power? Are you suggesting that the purpose was not attained? If we assume the purpose was attained then their incarnation did limit their exhibition of power. Or do you consider the letter not canonical? Joćo Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <0d3c8900.3bd913c8@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> Lines: 65 Bytes: 2063 X-Originating-Host: 171.66.101.84 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sf3tc$3pg_056@Org.xenite.org> <2a1814d4.a57feced@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sfep2$38s_006@Org.xenite.org> <008c54e2.ca304aa8@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> X-Wren-Trace: eK2IoKG4/7X+56qkpvmjt5+tqammr+KprO+nqrH55brz5bv67bzo8u/0/Q== Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:32:53 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.16 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 938226648 10.0.2.16 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:30:48 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:30:48 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.axxsys.net!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail > You have established that he was more powerful than "an > ordinary man", but this does not demonstrate that he > was > fully as powerful as when he was a bodiless Ainur, > that he > "did not lose *any* of" his original powers while > embodied. He did not loose any of his powers. He may have been limited in his ability to use that power. > You did not address that example of his limitations, > his > inability to escape from the tower-top until the eagle > came. > Are the Ainur so easily restrained? Can't they fly? There are some indications that they can't. At least not easily. In the Silmarillion, after the darkening of Valinor, Morgoth and Ungoliant return to middle earth crossing the Helcaraxe, not flying over the ocean (which it seems would be faster). Also, when Frodo puts on his ring, Sauron calls the Nazgul. But looking at the map, Barad-Dur is much closer to Orodruin than the Black Gates. So, if Sauron could fly (or move himself quickly) he would arrive much earlier than the Nazgul. In the battle at the end of the first age there was a battle in the air betwen the dragons and Earendil and the eagles. The text is not completely clear about it but it seems none of the Valar entered that battle. > Such examples could be multiplied. His need for a > horse, > thus taking time to catch Shadowfax when speed was of > the > essence. See above: Sauron was more powerfull than Gandalf, but he was slower than the Nazgul (at least that's what it seems to be implied) > Being stuck in a tree with Bilbo and the > dwarves > when the wolves attacked - he threw fire at them and > killed > many, but an Ainur could have killed them all or even > done > something else entirely, harmlessly restrained them or > sent > them away by sheer will... I'm not so sure the Ainur (specially the Maiar) are that powerfull. Joćo Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Webmaster@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sgnk4$304_010@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sf3tc$3pg_056@Org.xenite.org> <018ed270.bb3b59bd@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 20:40:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.210 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938205652 207.224.149.210 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:40:52 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:40:52 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <018ed270.bb3b59bd@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com>, Reader wrote: >Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: (*-*'s added) >> Reader wrote: >> >>> ... what exactly would you agree constitutes diminution? >> >> Any *reduction* in the native strength or ability... > >And yet, as provided, the definition of limitation includes >(especially) "reduction"; and JRRT says they *were* limited. Nothing was reduced. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Webmaster@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sgnpe$304_012@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sf3tc$3pg_056@Org.xenite.org> <2a1814d4.a57feced@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sfep2$38s_006@Org.xenite.org> <008c54e2.ca304aa8@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 38 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 20:43:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.210 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938205823 207.224.149.210 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:43:43 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:43:43 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <008c54e2.ca304aa8@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com>, Reader wrote: >Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >> >> No, they were not diminished in this respect, either. >> They REFRAINED from expressing their power -- they did not >> lose any of it. Gandalf clearly revealed some of that >> great power in his confrontation with the Balrog. An >> ordinary man simply cannot drop portions of mountains >> on other creatures, or destroy ancient stone bridges, or >> fight a powerful creature like a Balrog for eleven days. > >You have established that he was more powerful than "an >ordinary man", but this does not demonstrate that he was >fully as powerful as when he was a bodiless Ainur, that he >"did not lose *any* of" his original powers while embodied. Nothing in the texts suggest otherwise. >You did not address that example of his limitations, his >inability to escape from the tower-top until the eagle came. >Are the Ainur so easily restrained? Can't they fly? Yes, they can fly, if they take a shape which is capable of flight. But why should Gandalf's imprisonment in Orthanc be construed as evidence he couldn't escape on his own? If he had agreed not to take forms of majesty, and hadn't been actively practicing the changing of his form and hue (like Radagast), then what justifies the assumption that his not changing shape and flying away means he couldn't? Gandalf's lack of flight is a part of his character. Tolkien nowhere says it was due to any reduction in his native strength as an Ainu. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Webmaster@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7shptk$1uc_020@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sf3tc$3pg_056@Org.xenite.org> <2a1814d4.a57feced@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sfep2$38s_006@Org.xenite.org> <0ec4c663.35e4b54a@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 06:25:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.203 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938240774 209.181.118.203 (Sat, 25 Sep 1999 01:26:14 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 01:26:14 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <0ec4c663.35e4b54a@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com>, JP wrote: >> No, they were not diminished in this respect, either. >> They REFRAINED from >> expressing their power -- they did not lose any of it. > >How do you interpret then Tolkien's letter where he says >the purpose of the incarnation was to limit and hinder >their exhibition of power? I eschew interpretation on the news groups, as it's a dangerous word often put to ill use (in my opinion). But I have already pointed out the flaw in the interpretation offered elsewhere. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Webmaster@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7shq28$1uc_022@Org.xenite.org> References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sf3tc$3pg_056@Org.xenite.org> <2a1814d4.a57feced@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sfep2$38s_006@Org.xenite.org> <008c54e2.ca304aa8@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <0d3c8900.3bd913c8@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 43 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 06:28:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.203 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938240923 209.181.118.203 (Sat, 25 Sep 1999 01:28:43 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 01:28:43 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <0d3c8900.3bd913c8@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com>, JP wrote: [someone whose email address and name were improperly snipped wrote] >> You did not address that example of his limitations, >> his inability to escape from the tower-top until the eagle >> came. Are the Ainur so easily restrained? Can't they fly? > >There are some indications that they can't. At least >not easily. > >In the Silmarillion, after the darkening of Valinor, >Morgoth and Ungoliant return to middle earth crossing >the Helcaraxe, not flying over the ocean >(which it seems would be faster). > I've already shown that Melkor lost his ability to change shape before he fled from Valinor. >Also, when Frodo puts on his ring, Sauron calls the >Nazgul. But looking at the map, Barad-Dur is much closer >to Orodruin than the Black Gates. So, if Sauron could fly >(or move himself quickly) he would arrive much earlier >than the Nazgul. Sauron was without the greater part of his strength at the time. >In the battle at the end of the first age there was >a battle in the air betwen the dragons and >Earendil and the eagles. The text is not completely clear >about it but it seems none of the Valar entered that >battle. Please, let's not get back into the problems with THE SILMARILLION at the end of the book. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 20:40:33 -0400 Lines: 61 Message-ID: <37ED6B6C.778CAFD1@erols.com> References: <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990921154207.08641.00000147@ngol03.aol.com> <00091c0e.8293acae@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sf3tc$3pg_056@Org.xenite.org> <2a1814d4.a57feced@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com> <7sfep2$38s_006@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: cO+PTz4APlJISCnij1jzlqNuQa8z33ZjvsDbO29HCd8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Sep 1999 01:00:35 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <2a1814d4.a57feced@usw-ex0103-020.remarq.com>, Reader wrote: > >Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: (*-*'s added) > >> Reader wrote: > >> > >>> ... what exactly would you agree constitutes diminution? > >> > >> Any reduction in the *native* strength or ability of the > >> Ainur who took on the bodies of Men in order to become > >> Istari would be a diminishment of their beings (and > >> therefore an incorrect interpretation of the texts). > >> They cannot be reduced in their *native* strength, unless > >> they choose (as Melkor and Sauron did) to impart that > >> strength of their own free will into something else. > > > >I think making this distinction earlier might have avoided > >much of the debate. I doubt that any of your correspondents > >were claiming the Istari would retain these "limits" and > >"hindrances" *after* their time in the forms of mortal Men. > > This is not the first time I've made the point, however. But as so often > happens in these debates, I've been trying to refine my statements so as to > make the points clearer. > > >The "power" that was diminished was the strength that could > >be *expressed* _while_they_were_embodied_as_Men_; not their > >"native" strength, but their *available* or *applicable* > >strength _in_that_situation_. > > No, they were not diminished in this respect, either. They REFRAINED from > expressing their power -- they did not lose any of it. Gandalf clearly > revealed some of that great power in his confrontation with the Balrog. An > ordinary man simply cannot drop portions of mountains on other creatures, > or destroy ancient stone bridges, or fight a powerful creature like a > Balrog for eleven days. Thou makest sense. Yes, yes, my dear Michael, you make much sense. Dates! Dates! Give me all the dates! Dates and chips and salsa! I agree. Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight who hopes nobody minds that she changed Solinas to Ermanna. Way! Hey, hey! It's just an ordinary day, And it's all your state of mind! ###### Message-ID: <37EED11F.16427B73@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <37E98221.3D3ADE18@wizard.net> <37EE942A.271696A0@indigo.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.8.153.43 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 938397428 209.8.153.43 (Sun, 26 Sep 1999 21:57:08 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 21:57:08 EDT Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:06:23 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael O'Neill wrote: > > James Kuyper Jr. wrote: > > > > Michael O'Neill wrote: > > ... > > > Eh nope. Re-read the original quotations higher up this thread. Gandalf > > > was his "peer". Look it up in a dictionary. > > > > "peer" doesn't mean "of equal power"; it means "of equal rank". There > > can be very large differences in power between beings of equal rank. > > Thank you for pointing out that semantic difference. So explain how it > is one five star General is less powerful than another, unless he is > limited by Presidential decree or standing orders... Tell me - as an allied commander in WWII, would you prefer to go up against Rommell, or against one of the other Axis commanders of the same rank? Rank often carries legal power; but legal power is only a part of the total, and often a fairly minor one. Carrying the military analogy further, some people of high rank have no forces currently assigned to them, so their current power is low, even though they're of high rank. As I remember, there was a time when Patton was in trouble with his superiors, and was assigned to oversee a decoy force (supposedly threatening to invade near Dunkirk, if I remember correctly) - it worked magnificently, because the Germans couldn't imagine we'd put a leader of his abilities in charge of a decoy. ###### Message-ID: <37EE9395.AB982980@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 328 Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:43:49 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.131 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938385868 194.125.145.131 (Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:44:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:44:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!news-fra.pop.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail JP wrote: > > > > That settles it. Although the incarnation apparently > > > had > > > an undesirable side effect: a reduction of wisdom and > > > knowledge was certainly not a good idea when their > > > mission > > > was to "train, advise, instruct" > > I suspect they were not required to "train, advise, > > instruct" people in > > how to weild the powers of a Maiar, > > I don't think that would be possible. The power of a Maiar > seemed to be something intrinsic to his/her nature, not > something that could be taught. Such was not my point. I was saying that the limitations of their incarnation would not affect their mission, as long as they didn't try to match strength with strength against Sauron, i.e "ordinary" counselling was not a problem. Lack of knowledge of how to use their Maiar abilities was a problem. I think we're talking at cross purposes here ;-) > If I were to sing the same song that Yavanna sang when she > created the 2 trees, no tree would appear. Funnily, enough, if Manwe tried it the result would be the same I think... but your point relates to different powers of the Valar, not whether those might be learnt or not, per se. Yopu just state that is so, with no supporting argument. Lets examine my premise. Each Maiar/Valar has its own native strength in his/her ability to effect change in Arda. Each has its own disposition, i.e Varda probably is better at hallow things Aule [or Feanor] makes than making things to be hallowed. Olórin [Gandalf] has his forte in creative thinking, not battle. Referring to him as a one ot the "peers of Sauron" IMO refers to an appoximate grading of his native strength, not any absolute level of ability, given his knowledge, skill and disposition. I think this matter probably needs more thought, but think of an athlete under four "S" headings of Strength, Skill, Speed and Stamina. People who run long distance races cannot be directly compared with weight-lifters. Similarly, people who are competent numerically, are often not creative. Those who are competent creatively or numerically may not excel socially. Accountants, Artists and Politicians are very different in terms of their ultimate ability to affect the world. It takes all kinds, and they cannot be directly compared. It is a mistake to view teh Maiar/Valar of Middle Earth as some sort of Dungeons and Dragons characters with power levels and attributes. > > but more general > > stuff such as > > resisting Sauron. > > But unless the reduction in knowledge was selective, > it would hinder their ability to train and instruct. We agree. > And it seems a really strange idea to me that the > incarnation would produce a selective reduction in > knowledge. Again we agree. Gandalf confirms on his second incarnation that he had learnt anew much he had forgotten, while forgotting much he thought he knew. It would appear that a general debilitation of his entire mental state was allowed in the incarnation as an istari, and that his death had allowed him to revisit the Blessed Realm and "recharge". We see Gandalf II much as he would have been whe nnewly arrived in ME as Gandalf I IMO, vital, renewed ready for what comes, not as the careworn wizard who sacrificed himself to save the Company. > And a reduction in wisdom would definitely affect their > ability to advise. And yet again we agree. However, they were not imbeciles, they were the wisest creatures in ME! apart from teh odd half elf and elf and the occassional man... > > > > Much of the "power" of the Maiar seems to come from > > > > their deeper > > > > knowledge of Arda from the Music of the Ainur. > > > > > > How did you reach that conclusion? > > > I only remember a reference to prophecy > > > being related to knowledge of the music. > > Well, lets see. I'm interpreting, for one. I'm > > assuming that a knowledge > > of how Arda was meant to be "put together" as a > > creation allows an > > insight as to how things relate to and depend on each > > other, and that > > knowledge like that to a Maiar is like a How and Why > > to a scientist. > > But the Valar were the ones that put Arda together. A > knowledge of how it was put together wouldn't help them > to raise mountains and form seabeds. Eh, nope. Eru "put it together" originally in the sense of *creation*. I'm talking laws of physics level here. The Valar formed it thereafter, in the sense of embellishment, giving things form. As you said the Valar put it together. Not Maiar. They were the people of the Valar. I doubt any Maiar could raise a mountain. Building Barad Dur is as far a Sauron got, and tha was using the One Ring. A knowledge of how and why always helps. Think of Gandalf's utterance to the Balrog in Moria and his self desription. > > > I don't see how their native power could > > > suffer any reduction. > > What use is power if it can't be applied correctly. > > Are you thinking about the Sorcerer's Apprentice? > It is still power, it will have its effects on the world, > even if those are not the desired effects. More or less. More in the sense they couldn't actually access some ways of affecting change using their powers if they had lost the mental faculties to do so. SOrt of lik people losing the power of speech after and accident. They still know how to speak, and think, but that part of their brains which allows them to utter words isn't working properly. Moans come out. Think about Gandalf trying to get into Moria. > Such a limitation would be really dangerous. I don't think > the Valar would do it (on purpose at least). Of course they did it on purpose! It was partly this humbling, this sacrifice which tried to atone for their poor government of the world, IMO. Manwe's job was to govern Arda, not just Valinor. He made a proper bags of it from the word "go" IMO, and left large parts of it to the dominion of the Shadow, firstly Morgoth, latterly Sauron. > > Allow me recall teh > > definitions of Work and Energy as explained to me by > > my dear old Physics > > teacher back in secondary school; > > Their is a chair in the centre of a room. The given > > task is to move the > > chair to the corner. > > The first person heaves and grunts and puffs and > > sweats for twenty > > minutes but cannot move the chair. > > Much Energy [= Power] is expended :-)- no work is done. > > The second person, a smaller-built guy, unscrews the > > bolt holding the > > chair to the floor [for such is the case] and moves > > the chair to the > > corner. > > Very little energy is expended - but the work is done. > > Moral: Energy [= power] is pretty useless without the > > knowledge to apply > > it correctly. > > I hope this answers your query. > > I'm not sure if I understood your point. > > Are you saying they needed knowledge to use their power? Yes. > The same way as we need knowledge to turn on a TV? Yes. Well, to get a picture to watch anyway. Ever think about what you take for granted every day in doing that simple thing? You need to know how to focus your eyes, recognise the set, move your muscles to get you over to it, which switch to push or whether to use the remote [recognise what a remore is], you need to check if it's plugged in, if the electricity is connected to your house, if a fuse has blown on the circuit, if the T.V. is broken, if the signal is tuned in, if the station is briadcasting. You need a lot o knowledge to get a T.V. working, particularly if it isn't. > And that they could loose that knowledge, the same way > someone could unlearn how to walk? Yes, of course. Many people have unlearnt many things. Accident, illness stroke, mental trauma [hysterical loss of memory, vision, movement, etc.] Don't you watch any weepie movies? ;-) > Interesting. I don't remember anything that supports > it though. > Except maybe some reference about the blue wizards > starting some magical traditions. I don't remember > the quote. THink of JRRT's Christian beliefs. Christs life supports it. Many people in this thread have forgotten that thsi was a real and present matter for JRRT every day of his life. The thought that the Son of God, omnipotent, became incarnate, losing most of his godly attributes in the process. Is it really such a sstrange concept to you? Me neither ;-) > Anyway the above situation is very diferent. > The guy had not the > innate strength (power) to lift the chair while attached > to the floor and was not smart enough to see the problem. Its not so different. He had the ability to lift a chair, but couldn't do it. That's the point. The issue was how could lack of knowledge affect power. Power [Hi MM, if you're reading this you'll get the allusion elsewhere in the thread ;-)], is defined as "the rate of doing work"; no work was done by the guy who couldn't lift the chair, ergo... > So we don't have any limitaion on the guy's > ability to use his whole strength. > Only a limitation on how effectively he was able > to use it. It was a cvrude analogy, used to explain the relationship between knowledge and power. We are told other faculties were dimmed in the Istari too. > > If the knowledge is > > reduced, any given > > level of poer cannot be used as efficiently as before. > > But that puts no restriction on the use of power. There > are only restrictions on the effectiveness of its use. A person who has the potential to lift a chair but can't is effectively as powerless as someone who cannot lift a chair. A person who can physically push a button on a remote is effectively as powerless as someone who can't if he doesn't know which button to push. An istari who cannot use his native power is effectively powerless. > What Tolkien states is different: > their incarnation limited and hindered their > exhibition of power. Read it again; there's a little more to it than that:-) > > > > Gandalf, a peer of Sauron in Aman, several times > > > > makes > > > > reference to his > > > > comparative weakness in his incarnation as Gandalf > > > > in > > > > Middle Earth, > > > > barely able to divert Saurons half blind groping > > > > towards Frodo at > > > > Rauros, > > > > > > The situation seems quite symetric to me: > > > None of them knew where Frodo was, > > > they were both > > > far away. And Gandalf diverted Sauron's groping > > > only indirectly: he induced Frodo to take out the > > ring. > > It was the effect of the battle I was referring to; > > Gandalf was > > completely knackered after it. > > The ring was much closer to Frodo than Gandalf..... > and Gandalf was fighting with Frodo's desire to keep > the ring, not with Sauron. Reading the passage as written, we find; " The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that; for I sat in a high place, and I strove with teh Dark Tower: and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought." You comment that the Ring was physically closer to Gandalf is moot, sonce we don't know what effect distance might have on such a struggle, but it bolsters my argument in that Galdalf was only able to balance the Dark Tower, not defeat it, even though he was closer. He may have been with Galadriel, and even had the benefit of both his Ring and hers in that struggle: we do not know. > > > > while thanking his lucky stars he hadn't been > > > > revealed to him by > > > > peering in the Stone of Orthanc before Pippin did. > > > > > > Sauron was already more powerfull than Olorin > > > before the later became a Istari. > > Eh nope. Re-read the original quotations higher up > > this thread. Gandalf > > was his "peer". Look it up in a dictionary. > > I did. One of the meanings is > > "One belonging to the same societal group especially based > on age, grade, or status" > > That says simply that Saruman, Gandalf > and Sauron were all Maiar. No. It states they were equals. That is the meaning of "peer" in the given context. > That is the way the word is used in the Valaquenta at > least: > > "The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World > was in his begining Melkor;" > > "For he [Melkor] coveted Arda and all that was in it, > desiring the kingship of Manwe and dominion over the > realms of his PEERS." And that's the way it was used referring to the Istari. Melkor desired dominion over the realms of his equals. You said; - "Sauron was already more powerfull than Olorinbefore the later became a Istari." Then you said; - "One of the meanings is "One belonging to the same societal group especially based on age, grade, or status"" And your point is... ;-) M. ###### Message-ID: <37EE93C7.3CAEFE99@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> <7sceqc$15s_004@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:44:39 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.131 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938385914 194.125.145.131 (Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:45:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:45:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.esat.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com>, JP wrote: > >But unless the reduction in knowledge was selective, > >it would hinder their ability to train and instruct. > > [big HUGE long snip] > > Highly unlikely. The knowledge was buried in the Istari's memories, but > not required for them to advise Elves and Men in the struggle against > Sauron. Knowing how to shape worlds isn't one of the prerequisite skills > for a counselor. Thanks. That was the point I was trying to make. M. ###### Message-ID: <37EE942A.271696A0@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <37E98221.3D3ADE18@wizard.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:46:18 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.131 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938386013 194.125.145.131 (Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:46:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:46:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail James Kuyper Jr. wrote: > > Michael O'Neill wrote: > ... > > Eh nope. Re-read the original quotations higher up this thread. Gandalf > > was his "peer". Look it up in a dictionary. > > "peer" doesn't mean "of equal power"; it means "of equal rank". There > can be very large differences in power between beings of equal rank. Thank you for pointing out that semantic difference. So explain how it is one five star General is less powerful than another, unless he is limited by Presidential decree or standing orders... :-) M. ###### Message-ID: <37EE9607.E20C64D4@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie> <7sbrjo$3jc_004@Org.xenite.org> <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie> <7sdol5$cc_018@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:54:15 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.131 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938386490 194.125.145.131 (Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:54:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:54:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> > >> Hahahahaha! > > > > > >Oh dear. Well, I'll give you a small clue. Its in your physics paper as > >a required definition. > > Here's a more relevant clue: Tolkien identified "power" with "native > strength". Sorry. Even in the dark ages of the early part of this century, "power" was a well understood term. It was equated with strength, but meant far more. My response to JP above refers in more detail, but the definition is;- Power = the rate at which work is done. To speak colloquially of a person "being powerful" means he can do thingss affect his envoronment according to his wishes. Sauron is portrayed as being very powerful. He ultimately wasn't, as it turned out. He was merely strong in some things. That's one of the many non - allegorical messages in the book. Might isn't right, per se, and strength isn't everything. Everybody knows it, Michael. Knowledge is power. *I can't believe I'm arguing the toss over this with a guy who can program computers, run websites and make a hundred posts a night without breaking sweat.* It must be self-evident, surely... [don't call me shirley] :-) M. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7smaqk$so_012@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> <37EE9395.AB982980@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 19:39:27 EDT Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:39:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!easynews!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!news1.POSTED!Xenite In article <37EE9395.AB982980@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: >JP wrote: >> >> I don't think that would be possible. The power of a Maiar >> seemed to be something intrinsic to his/her nature, not >> something that could be taught. > >Such was not my point. I was saying that the limitations of their >incarnation would not affect their mission, as long as they didn't try >to match strength with strength against Sauron, i.e "ordinary" >counselling was not a problem. Lack of knowledge of how to use their >Maiar abilities was a problem. I think we're talking at cross purposes >here ;-) None of the Istari seem to have been powerful enough to match Sauron strength-for-strength except possibly if Sauron was not in possession of the Ring. Their weakness before him was due to the greater nature of his spirit, not to their having taken on the forms of Men. They had no "problem". They did not forget who they were or where they came from, nor really even what their purpose was. Whatever knowledge they may have forgotten does appear to have impaired or hindered them in the least. And as Gandalf never stipulates what he forgot, nor when he forgot it, you are assuming much without any justification. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7smasg$so_014@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie> <7sbrjo$3jc_004@Org.xenite.org> <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie> <7sdol5$cc_018@Org.xenite.org> <37EE9607.E20C64D4@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 19:40:26 EDT Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:40:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!easynews!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!news1.POSTED!Xenite In article <37EE9607.E20C64D4@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> Here's a more relevant clue: Tolkien identified "power" with "native >> strength". > >Sorry. Even in the dark ages of the early part of this century, "power" >was a well understood term. Please don't introduce irrelevancies. Only what Tolkien said matters. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <37EF7849.E62B6313@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <37E98221.3D3ADE18@wizard.net> <37EE942A.271696A0@indigo.ie> <37EED11F.16427B73@wizard.net> <37EF71FE.97A604B@indigo.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 45 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.8.153.37 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 938440225 209.8.153.37 (Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:50:25 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:50:25 EDT Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:59:37 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael O'Neill wrote: > > James Kuyper Jr. wrote: ... > > Tell me - as an allied commander in WWII, would you prefer to go up > > against Rommell, or against one of the other Axis commanders of the same > > rank? > > Rank often carries legal power; but legal power is only a part of the > > total, and often a fairly minor one. > > > > Carrying the military analogy further, some people of high rank have no > > forces currently assigned to them, so their current power is low, even > > though they're of high rank. As I remember, there was a time when Patton > > was in trouble with his superiors, and was assigned to oversee a decoy > > force (supposedly threatening to invade near Dunkirk, if I remember > > correctly) - it worked magnificently, because the Germans couldn't > > imagine we'd put a leader of his abilities in charge of a decoy. > > Really? So you're saying that there are many kinds of power, and all > we're arguing over is whether native strength is (a) reduced at all, in > the current context - the istari incarnations- and (b) whether lack of > knowledge adversely affects the effective use of power [= native > strength]. > > These are not new concepts. To me they are self evident. > > And your last example must have left you hopping about a bit and > reminding yourself about putting on the safety next time... ;-) > > Why? You just pointed out the power inherent in fame and deception, a > most ephemeral power, and inconstant, as applied to the military theatre > - very apt considering the pretense on war waged in "The Black Gate > Opens". > > Why does that shoot you in the foot? > > Because we were debating the two points synopsised above. The > appointment of Patton, powerless, was a successful diversionary tactic > because of the enemy's LACK OF KNOWLEDGE concerning the actual > situation. You need to pay closer attention - I wasn't arguing about this whole 'Istari Incarnation and "Weakening"' issue. I was only addressing the specific claim that "peer" meant "equal power". I very definitely agree that knowledge is essential to the effective use of power. ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:23:14 -0400 Lines: 324 Message-ID: <37EF8BDA.CFA10A9E@erols.com> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> <37EE9395.AB982980@indigo.ie> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: +KbjdAQpkB4Tv5tOp4Y8CNmvQMy1hbxp3Y2f9wixHw8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Sep 1999 18:32:35 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newsfeed.mad.ttd.net!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Michael O'Neill wrote: > JP wrote: > > > > > > That settles it. Although the incarnation apparently > > > > had > > > > an undesirable side effect: a reduction of wisdom and > > > > knowledge was certainly not a good idea when their > > > > mission > > > > was to "train, advise, instruct" > > > I suspect they were not required to "train, advise, > > > instruct" people in > > > how to weild the powers of a Maiar, > > > > I don't think that would be possible. The power of a Maiar > > seemed to be something intrinsic to his/her nature, not > > something that could be taught. > > Such was not my point. I was saying that the limitations of their > incarnation would not affect their mission, as long as they didn't try > to match strength with strength against Sauron, i.e "ordinary" > counselling was not a problem. Lack of knowledge of how to use their > Maiar abilities was a problem. I think we're talking at cross purposes > here ;-) Gandalf sure seems to have no problem. > > If I were to sing the same song that Yavanna sang when she > > created the 2 trees, no tree would appear. > > Funnily, enough, if Manwe tried it the result would be the same I > think... but your point relates to different powers of the Valar, not > whether those might be learnt or not, per se. Yopu just state that is > so, with no supporting argument. Don't think so. 1) Yavanna says it can't be done again without some light from the Two Trees; 2) if Manwe could, don't you think he would've when they died? > Lets examine my premise. Just did. But as you wish. > Each Maiar/Valar has its own native strength in > his/her ability to effect change in Arda. Each has its own disposition, > i.e Varda probably is better at hallow things Aule [or Feanor] makes > than making things to be hallowed. Olórin [Gandalf] has his forte in > creative thinking, not battle. Any Ainur can hallow. Varda just does it more. > Referring to him as a one ot the "peers of Sauron" IMO refers to an > appoximate grading of his native strength, not any absolute level of > ability, given his knowledge, skill and disposition. Don't agree. > I think this matter probably needs more thought, but think of an athlete > under four "S" headings of Strength, Skill, Speed and Stamina. People > who run long distance races cannot be directly compared with > weight-lifters. Similarly, people who are competent numerically, are > often not creative. Those who are competent creatively or numerically > may not excel socially. Accountants, Artists and Politicians are very > different in terms of their ultimate ability to affect the world. It > takes all kinds, and they cannot be directly compared. It is a mistake > to view teh Maiar/Valar of Middle Earth as some sort of Dungeons and > Dragons characters with power levels and attributes. > > > > but more general > > > stuff such as > > > resisting Sauron. > > > > But unless the reduction in knowledge was selective, > > it would hinder their ability to train and instruct. > > We agree. > > > And it seems a really strange idea to me that the > > incarnation would produce a selective reduction in > > knowledge. > > Again we agree. Gandalf confirms on his second incarnation that he had > learnt anew much he had forgotten, while forgotting much he thought he > knew. It would appear that a general debilitation of his entire mental > state was allowed in the incarnation as an istari, and that his death > had allowed him to revisit the Blessed Realm and "recharge". We see > Gandalf II much as he would have been whe nnewly arrived in ME as > Gandalf I IMO, vital, renewed ready for what comes, not as the careworn > wizard who sacrificed himself to save the Company. 1) GANDALF LEFT EA! Good! Now that's out of my system; 2)it appears that in his first incarnation his memory wasn't as good as it is in his Olórin form. > > And a reduction in wisdom would definitely affect their > > ability to advise. > > And yet again we agree. However, they were not imbeciles, they were the > wisest creatures in ME! apart from teh odd half elf and elf and the > occassional man... > > > > > > Much of the "power" of the Maiar seems to come from > > > > > their deeper > > > > > knowledge of Arda from the Music of the Ainur. > > > > > > > > How did you reach that conclusion? > > > > I only remember a reference to prophecy > > > > being related to knowledge of the music. > > > Well, lets see. I'm interpreting, for one. I'm > > > assuming that a knowledge > > > of how Arda was meant to be "put together" as a > > > creation allows an > > > insight as to how things relate to and depend on each > > > other, and that > > > knowledge like that to a Maiar is like a How and Why > > > to a scientist. > > > > But the Valar were the ones that put Arda together. A > > knowledge of how it was put together wouldn't help them > > to raise mountains and form seabeds. > > Eh, nope. Eru "put it together" originally in the sense of *creation*. > I'm talking laws of physics level here. The Valar formed it thereafter, > in the sense of embellishment, giving things form. > > As you said the Valar put it together. Not Maiar. They were the people > of the Valar. I doubt any Maiar could raise a mountain. Building Barad > Dur is as far a Sauron got, and tha was using the One Ring. A knowledge > of how and why always helps. Think of Gandalf's utterance to the Balrog > in Moria and his self desription. The AINUR created Eä. That includes both the Maiar and Valar. > > > > I don't see how their native power could > > > > suffer any reduction. > > > What use is power if it can't be applied correctly. > > > > Are you thinking about the Sorcerer's Apprentice? > > It is still power, it will have its effects on the world, > > even if those are not the desired effects. > > More or less. More in the sense they couldn't actually access some ways > of affecting change using their powers if they had lost the mental > faculties to do so. SOrt of lik people losing the power of speech after > and accident. They still know how to speak, and think, but that part of > their brains which allows them to utter words isn't working properly. > Moans come out. Think about Gandalf trying to get into Moria. Nobody had ever told him how. > > Such a limitation would be really dangerous. I don't think > > the Valar would do it (on purpose at least). > > Of course they did it on purpose! Of course they didn't! > It was partly this humbling, this > sacrifice which tried to atone for their poor government of the world, > IMO. They weren't doing a bad job! > Manwe's job was to govern Arda, not just Valinor. He made a proper > bags of it from the word "go" IMO, and left large parts of it to the > dominion of the Shadow, firstly Morgoth, latterly Sauron. Didn't want to risk killing the Elves before they woke up; the Noldor were paying for slaughtering the Teleri; the Valar stoped showing their hand so openly when Men started taking over 'cause they just don't get Men. > > > I hope this answers your query. > > > > I'm not sure if I understood your point. > > > > Are you saying they needed knowledge to use their power? > > Yes. I don't agree. > > The same way as we need knowledge to turn on a TV? > > Yes. Well, to get a picture to watch anyway. Ever think about what you > take for granted every day in doing that simple thing? > > You need to know how to focus your eyes, Focusing doesn't always need thought. > recognise the set, move your > muscles to get you over to it, which switch to push or whether to use > the remote [recognise what a remore is], you need to check if it's > plugged in, if the electricity is connected to your house, if a fuse has > blown on the circuit, if the T.V. is broken, if the signal is tuned in, > if the station is briadcasting. You need a lot o knowledge to get a T.V. > working, particularly if it isn't. Then you pick up a phone, dial, and get somebody to FIX it. > > And that they could loose that knowledge, the same way > > someone could unlearn how to walk? > > Yes, of course. Many people have unlearnt many things. Accident, illness > stroke, mental trauma [hysterical loss of memory, vision, movement, > etc.] Don't you watch any weepie movies? ;-) I don't. > > Interesting. I don't remember anything that supports > > it though. > > Except maybe some reference about the blue wizards > > starting some magical traditions. I don't remember > > the quote. > > THink of JRRT's Christian beliefs. Christs life supports it. Many people > in this thread have forgotten that thsi was a real and present matter > for JRRT every day of his life. The thought that the Son of God, > omnipotent, became incarnate, losing most of his godly attributes in the > process. Is it really such a sstrange concept to you? He often USED His power to heal people. He ate and drank noth- ing for forty day. Doesn't this show you He didn't lose ANY of His "godly attributes"? > Me neither ;-) > > > Anyway the above situation is very diferent. > > The guy had not the > > innate strength (power) to lift the chair while attached > > to the floor and was not smart enough to see the problem. > > Its not so different. He had the ability to lift a chair, but couldn't > do it. That's the point. The issue was how could lack of knowledge > affect power. Power [Hi MM, if you're reading this you'll get the > allusion elsewhere in the thread ;-)], is defined as "the rate of doing > work"; no work was done by the guy who couldn't lift the chair, ergo... It shows whomever you're talking about is an idiot(I'm assuming you're not talking about a real person). > > So we don't have any limitaion on the guy's > > ability to use his whole strength. > > Only a limitation on how effectively he was able > > to use it. > > It was a cvrude analogy, used to explain the relationship between > knowledge and power. We are told other faculties were dimmed in the > Istari too. What ones? > > > > The situation seems quite symetric to me: > > > > None of them knew where Frodo was, > > > > they were both > > > > far away. And Gandalf diverted Sauron's groping > > > > only indirectly: he induced Frodo to take out the > > > ring. As Sauron was inducing Frodo NOT to take off the Ring. Gandalf WAS trying to hold off Sauron long enough for Frodo to take it off, so they were fighting directly. Frodo wasn't "induced" into anything. I show to you, "He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring! The two powers strove in hin. For a moment, perfectly bal- anced between their piercing points, he writhed tormented.Sud- denly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger." > > > It was the effect of the battle I was referring to; > > > Gandalf was > > > completely knackered after it. > > > > The ring was much closer to Frodo than Gandalf..... > > and Gandalf was fighting with Frodo's desire to keep > > the ring, not with Sauron. He fought with Sauron. > Reading the passage as written, we find; > > " The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the > Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the > Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that; for I sat in a high > place, and I strove with teh Dark Tower: and the Shadow passed. Then I > was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought." > > You comment that the Ring was physically closer to Gandalf is moot, > sonce we don't know what effect distance might have on such a struggle, > but it bolsters my argument in that Galdalf was only able to balance the > Dark Tower, not defeat it, even though he was closer. He may have been > with Galadriel, and even had the benefit of both his Ring and hers in > that struggle: we do not know. > M. Lśthien Tinśviel/Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the waay! I've got rthym and rhyme, And I ain't your tyype! ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:30:47 -0400 Lines: 62 Message-ID: <37EF8D9F.699FC0B3@erols.com> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie> <7sbrjo$3jc_004@Org.xenite.org> <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie> <7sdol5$cc_018@Org.xenite.org> <37EE9607.E20C64D4@indigo.ie> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: +KbjdAQpkB6Ndr89Hy87Jv56Z/9BHunV85+sACjtnGI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Sep 1999 18:32:39 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Michael O'Neill wrote: > Michael Martinez wrote: > > > > In article <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > > >Michael Martinez wrote: > > >> > > >> Hahahahaha! > > > > > > > > >Oh dear. Well, I'll give you a small clue. Its in your physics paper as > > >a required definition. > > > > Here's a more relevant clue: Tolkien identified "power" with "native > > strength". > > Sorry. Even in the dark ages of the early part of this century, "power" > was a well understood term. It was equated with strength, but meant far > more. My response to JP above refers in more detail, but the definition > is;- > > Power = the rate at which work is done. =the Real World's definition, not Middle-Earth's. > To speak colloquially of a person "being powerful" means he can do > thingss affect his envoronment according to his wishes. Sauron is > portrayed as being very powerful. He ultimately wasn't, as it turned > out. He was merely strong in some things. He was very powerful. > That's one of the many non - allegorical messages in the book. Might > isn't right, per se, and strength isn't everything. > > Everybody knows it, Michael. Knowledge is power. > > *I can't believe I'm arguing the toss over this with a guy who can > program computers, run websites and make a hundred posts a night without > breaking sweat.* > > It must be self-evident, surely... > > [don't call me shirley] > > :-) Read Tolkien, Everybody! > M. Lśthien Tinśviel/Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go I've got angels to show me the waay! I've got rthym and rhyme, And I ain't your tyype! ###### Message-ID: <37EF6E2D.B39DD632@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie> <7sbrjo$3jc_004@Org.xenite.org> <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie> <7sdol5$cc_018@Org.xenite.org> <37EE9607.E20C64D4@indigo.ie> <7smasg$so_014@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 55 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:16:29 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.131 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938438229 194.125.145.131 (Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:17:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:17:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <37EE9607.E20C64D4@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> > >> Here's a more relevant clue: Tolkien identified "power" with "native > >> strength". > > > >Sorry. Even in the dark ages of the early part of this century, "power" > >was a well understood term. > > Please don't introduce irrelevancies. Only what Tolkien said matters. Wrong again, Michael. A book once published, is open to review and interpretation by its readers. It is part of the enjoyment of a book review. Everyone knows the old politicians bane, where the meaning "intended" by his speech writer gets taken up incorrectly [sometimes all too correctly!] by the public or the opposition party, and they spend endless effort to "put the record straight" usually in defiance of all logic. So you've made a broad assertion. You have yet to make your point. Do you have one, as I seem to have lost sight of your own intent? Please enlighten me. To help a bit, my position is as follows; - 1. Istari were reduced in both knowledge and abilities [=native strength IMO] by being incarnated as Men. 2. The former also affects the latter in terms of overall effectiveness of use, even if the latter was not also reduced. 3. IMO these things were done partly to win trust and not "lead from in front", but mainly to make all peoples aware of the value of ME to themselves, and that it was worth fighting for - and not do their fighting for them. 4. Please don't keep referring to "what Tolkien wrote" as being the definitive guide to matters. A less definitive guide would be hard to find. Anyone who has read Unfinished Tales and Lost Tales knows that a LOT of revision took place; sometimes spanning several decades, or sometimes forgotten about and being done after several decades had passed since the first draft; or sometimes even thought about, possibly even indicated in some obscure note or scribble on an old notebook, but never properly sorted. 5. Given the morass of grief that is the Silmarillion, about the only published work we can be even remotely certain - in large part - about is The Lord of The Rings. And even that's not written in stone. Such is the lot of a creative writer, and the lot of readers of fiction, also. 6. So quote me, baby. Back up your assertions. M. ###### Message-ID: <37EF71FE.97A604B@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <37E98221.3D3ADE18@wizard.net> <37EE942A.271696A0@indigo.ie> <37EED11F.16427B73@wizard.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 80 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:32:46 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.131 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938439211 194.125.145.131 (Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:33:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:33:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!carrier1.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail James Kuyper Jr. wrote: > > Michael O'Neill wrote: > > > > James Kuyper Jr. wrote: > > > > > > Michael O'Neill wrote: > > > ... > > > > Eh nope. Re-read the original quotations higher up this thread. Gandalf > > > > was his "peer". Look it up in a dictionary. > > > > > > "peer" doesn't mean "of equal power"; it means "of equal rank". There > > > can be very large differences in power between beings of equal rank. > > > > Thank you for pointing out that semantic difference. So explain how it > > is one five star General is less powerful than another, unless he is > > limited by Presidential decree or standing orders... > > Tell me - as an allied commander in WWII, would you prefer to go up > against Rommell, or against one of the other Axis commanders of the same > rank? > Rank often carries legal power; but legal power is only a part of the > total, and often a fairly minor one. > > Carrying the military analogy further, some people of high rank have no > forces currently assigned to them, so their current power is low, even > though they're of high rank. As I remember, there was a time when Patton > was in trouble with his superiors, and was assigned to oversee a decoy > force (supposedly threatening to invade near Dunkirk, if I remember > correctly) - it worked magnificently, because the Germans couldn't > imagine we'd put a leader of his abilities in charge of a decoy. Really? So you're saying that there are many kinds of power, and all we're arguing over is whether native strength is (a) reduced at all, in the current context - the istari incarnations- and (b) whether lack of knowledge adversely affects the effective use of power [= native strength]. These are not new concepts. To me they are self evident. And your last example must have left you hopping about a bit and reminding yourself about putting on the safety next time... ;-) Why? You just pointed out the power inherent in fame and deception, a most ephemeral power, and inconstant, as applied to the military theatre - very apt considering the pretense on war waged in "The Black Gate Opens". Why does that shoot you in the foot? Because we were debating the two points synopsised above. The appointment of Patton, powerless, was a successful diversionary tactic because of the enemy's LACK OF KNOWLEDGE concerning the actual situation. Anyway, back to the "peer" thing. Lookit, I don't know why they had to be "mighty, peers of Sauron", that's just a given. Using the words "peer" and "mighty" in that context leads me to understand thay they were coeval in power with Sauron before their incarnation as Men.THat's my interpretation of it. FWIW I think this harks back to the Christian mythos and the notion of Godly [in this case demi-godly] atonement for mankinds sins leading the Son of God to become the untimate sacrifice [in this case atonement for Manwe & Co's previous cock-ups]. More importantly, the whole idea of "peer" standing falls flat on its face if you realise that ELrond [a clued-in Elf] could have performed just as well as Gandalf [a de-clued demi-god], given a fast horse, some amphetamines and warm clothes for the battle in Moria, and a pre-mortis agreement with Manwe that he would be sent back doulbe-quick to sort out Sauron, after a quick Open University refresher course in Guerrilla warfare. The fact that Gandalf used subterfuge and distraction against far superior might and won really makes a nonsense of of the whole "peer" thing for me, but there ya go. M. ###### Message-ID: <37EF7705.2EF74F0D@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> <37EE9395.AB982980@indigo.ie> <7smaqk$so_012@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 90 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:54:13 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.131 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938440496 194.125.145.131 (Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:54:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:54:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <37EE9395.AB982980@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > >JP wrote: > >> > >> I don't think that would be possible. The power of a Maiar > >> seemed to be something intrinsic to his/her nature, not > >> something that could be taught. > > > >Such was not my point. I was saying that the limitations of their > >incarnation would not affect their mission, as long as they didn't try > >to match strength with strength against Sauron, i.e "ordinary" > >counselling was not a problem. Lack of knowledge of how to use their > >Maiar abilities was a problem. I think we're talking at cross purposes > >here ;-) > > None of the Istari seem to have been powerful enough to match Sauron > strength-for-strength except possibly if Sauron was not in possession of > the Ring. Their weakness before him was due to the greater nature of his > spirit, not to their having taken on the forms of Men. I can't agree. The manner of their appointment and incarnation suggests the opposite. > They had no "problem". They did not forget who they were or where > they came from, nor really even what their purpose was. Of course they suffered memory loss. What else was Gandalf's reason for wistfully thinking of using the Palantķr of Orthanc to seein "the unimaginable hand and eye of Feanor at work" if his memory was intact>? He was a spirit from before Arda. He sang in the Music. He would have had living memories of Feanor, yet he speaks like a man born to a later time, not like a Maia who knew Feanor while he was living in Valinor. Okay, I'm not suggesting they were busom buddies, or that Feanor held open house while working on something like the Silmarils, but Gandalfs comment was a general one, and certainly Maiar as well as Elves would have visited with Feanor diring the sojourn in Valinor. ólorin was noted as having contributed to the Elves creative processes, after all. Mind you, you could see him not taking to Feanor who was prideful and arrogant by all accounts, and perhaps also for the same reason as Galadriel, the darkness in his heart. > Whatever knowledge they may have forgotten does appear to have > impaired or hindered them in the least. And as Gandalf never > stipulates what he forgot, nor when he forgot it, you are assuming > much without anyjustification. Sorry, this is rec.arts.books.tolkien, not rec.arts.tv-series.LA Law, but if you want hard logic, without any quasi legal waffle here it is. WHether you interpret your reading of the limited history available on two of teh Istari, Gandalf and Saruman, as allowing yout to make your assertion that they were not hindered "in the least" EVER in their stay in middle earth is for you to state. I cannot agree with you on what little we know, neve rmind the many years of their existence we don't know about. It patently obvious that Gandalf was aware of his limitations and worked within them, while Saruman did not work withing *his* limitations. I believe this points to the lesser knowledge factor. Self-knowledge, that is, not knowledge of how to use native strength. I believe if Saruman had been "whole" in his mind and spirit, he would not have acted so grossly as to have bred Orcs and Men, set up in power against Sauron [which he was expressly forbidden to do, along with all the other Istari] and his end would have been different. Now if your statement tries to assert that Sarumans loss of knowledge didn't impair him in his assigned role, I shall refer you to the entire text of The Lord of the Rings, which you may re-read at your leisure, especially those portions dealing with the Orcs of the White hand, Southerners [at Bree and elsewhere], Dunlendings, Ents, Rohan, machinery at Isengard, the casting out of Saruman, the scouring of the Shire and sundry other matters and afterward leave you to reflect on the nature of the interrelationship of mind and identity, power and knowledge and of course the history of tongues. HTH HAND M. p.s. you could always interpret the directions given to the Istari and quote some back up extracts to me. I'll wait... *tap, tap, tap...* :-) ###### Message-ID: <37EF77D1.4C9FB469@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <37E98221.3D3ADE18@wizard.net> <37EE942A.271696A0@indigo.ie> <37EED11F.16427B73@wizard.net> <37EF71FE.97A604B@indigo.ie> <37EF7849.E62B6313@wizard.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 60 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:57:37 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.131 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938440698 194.125.145.131 (Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:58:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:58:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail James Kuyper Jr. wrote: > > Michael O'Neill wrote: > > > > James Kuyper Jr. wrote: > ... > > > Tell me - as an allied commander in WWII, would you prefer to go up > > > against Rommell, or against one of the other Axis commanders of the same > > > rank? > > > Rank often carries legal power; but legal power is only a part of the > > > total, and often a fairly minor one. > > > > > > Carrying the military analogy further, some people of high rank have no > > > forces currently assigned to them, so their current power is low, even > > > though they're of high rank. As I remember, there was a time when Patton > > > was in trouble with his superiors, and was assigned to oversee a decoy > > > force (supposedly threatening to invade near Dunkirk, if I remember > > > correctly) - it worked magnificently, because the Germans couldn't > > > imagine we'd put a leader of his abilities in charge of a decoy. > > > > Really? So you're saying that there are many kinds of power, and all > > we're arguing over is whether native strength is (a) reduced at all, in > > the current context - the istari incarnations- and (b) whether lack of > > knowledge adversely affects the effective use of power [= native > > strength]. > > > > These are not new concepts. To me they are self evident. > > > > And your last example must have left you hopping about a bit and > > reminding yourself about putting on the safety next time... ;-) > > > > Why? You just pointed out the power inherent in fame and deception, a > > most ephemeral power, and inconstant, as applied to the military theatre > > - very apt considering the pretense on war waged in "The Black Gate > > Opens". > > > > Why does that shoot you in the foot? > > > > Because we were debating the two points synopsised above. The > > appointment of Patton, powerless, was a successful diversionary tactic > > because of the enemy's LACK OF KNOWLEDGE concerning the actual > > situation. > > You need to pay closer attention - I wasn't arguing about this whole > 'Istari Incarnation and "Weakening"' issue. I was only addressing the > specific claim that "peer" meant "equal power". I very definitely agree > that knowledge is essential to the effective use of power. Well, fair comment [nice to see you're online!]. However "peer" was used in the context of "they must be might, peers pf Sauron, yet forgoe power..." or words to that effect, and so while I agree peer doe not imply absolute equivalence, it nonetheless points in that direction, given the context. My other natterings in this thread also refer, and especially as regards "why" they had to be "peers" at all. M. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 18:32:44 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 30 Message-ID: <7sorrn$sjh$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <37EF8BDA.CFA10A9E@erols.com> <19990927150909.09493.00000708@ngol06.aol.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.186 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 938472119 29297 12.79.22.186 (27 Sep 1999 22:41:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Sep 1999 22:41:59 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail McREsq wrote in message news:19990927150909.09493.00000708@ngol06.aol.com... > In article <37EF8BDA.CFA10A9E@erols.com>, Solinas writes: >> 1) GANDALF LEFT EA! Good! Now that's out of my system; > This is an area I wanted to do some research on. In the > Ainluindale and other cosmology writings, it is stated > that the Valar and Maiar are bound to remain within Ea > until the end of time. The death of an incarnate Ainur > would not normally have meant his release from Ea and > return to the halls of Illuvatar. > Unless Tolkien changed his cosmology (which is possible > as seen in Myths Transformed), the death of Gandalf would > not mean the release of Olorin from Ea. Normally no. However, in this case Gandalf says that he passed 'outside of thought and time' and JRRT seems to indicate in his letters that Gandalf was taken out of Ea. This was an exception, direct intervention by Eru. Letter #156 is a good source for this - also notes that Galadriel provided only physical healing (which is relevant to some of the other branches of this thread) after the battle on the peak. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Lines: 90 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 27 Sep 1999 19:09:09 GMT References: <37EF8BDA.CFA10A9E@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <19990927150909.09493.00000708@ngol06.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37EF8BDA.CFA10A9E@erols.com>, Solinas writes: >> Referring to him as a one ot the "peers of Sauron" IMO refers to an >> appoximate grading of his native strength, not any absolute level of >> ability, given his knowledge, skill and disposition. > > Don't agree. I think the former is correct. In a note to Letter 183, Tolkien says that Sauron was of a much higher order than Gandalf. Gandalf and Sauron were peers only in the sense that they were boths being of the angelic order, but Sauron was much more powerful than Olorin. > > 1) GANDALF LEFT EA! Good! Now that's out of my system; This is an area I wanted to do some research on. In the Ainluindale and other cosmology writings, it is stated that the Valar and Maiar are bound to remain within Ea until the end of time. The death of an incarnate Ainur would not normally have meant his release from Ea and return to the halls of Illuvatar. Unless Tolkien changed his cosmology (which is possible as seen in Myths Transformed), the death of Gandalf would not mean the release of Olorin from Ea. Rather, I envision something like what happened to Saruman, except that Gandlaf would have been accepted back into Aman where he would have been healed and could have taken on raiment eventually. Anyway, unless changes are made to Tolkien's cosmology, Gandalf spirit could not have returned to Illuvatar. What appears happened is that Illuvatar "captured" Olorin's disembodied spirit and put it back into Gandalf body (obviously having to heal it to a certain extent). Moreover, Gandalf's reincarnation as White apparently allowed more access to his innate powers. This intervention by Eru was apparently necessry due to the time constraints involved. With the loss of Gandalf the Grey, there was nothing the Valar could do on short notice to stop Sauron, short of direct physical intervention. Only the power of Illuvatar could put Gandalf back in play that quickly. > The AINUR created Eä. That includes both the Maiar and Valar. Actually, Illuvatar created Ea. In fact, Ea simply is the word Illuvatar spoke (meaning "let it be") when creating the physical universe. The Music of the Ainur did not create anything. The music only created the *potential* of being, not being itself. Only Illuvatar could give the Music reality and he did so by making it be - Ea. >> > Such a limitation would be really dangerous. I don't think >> > the Valar would do it (on purpose at least). >> >> Of course they did it on purpose! > > Of course they didn't! It was very much their intention that the Istari limit their power. There is disagreement whether such limitation was a purely voluntary choice or, as I believe, a function of their true body and blood incarnation as a human. However, there is no disagreement that the Istari nevertheless limited their use of their native power. >> It was partly this humbling, this >> sacrifice which tried to atone for their poor government of the world, >> IMO. > > They weren't doing a bad job! Well, they made two major mistakes: not dealing with Melkor earlier and inviting the Elves to Aman. > >> Manwe's job was to govern Arda, not just Valinor. He made a proper >> bags of it from the word "go" IMO, and left large parts of it to the >> dominion of the Shadow, firstly Morgoth, latterly Sauron. > > Didn't want to risk killing the Elves before they woke up; Illuvatar told them their waiting was a mistake. They should have had more trust in him because he would never allow the resting places of his Children to be disturbed. Manwe, who best knew the mind of Illuvatar should have known this. Russ ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:17:18 -0400 Lines: 106 Message-ID: <37EFFAFD.B968A6C2@erols.com> References: <37EF8BDA.CFA10A9E@erols.com> <19990927150909.09493.00000708@ngol06.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UIfYXUhNFDi1YuaESZZHoTDqngWRpgqHINex3D3hFjA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 1999 03:29:40 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > In article <37EF8BDA.CFA10A9E@erols.com>, Solinas writes: > > > > >> Referring to him as a one ot the "peers of Sauron" IMO refers to an > >> appoximate grading of his native strength, not any absolute level of > >> ability, given his knowledge, skill and disposition. > > > > Don't agree. > > I think the former is correct. In a note to Letter 183, Tolkien says that > Sauron was of a much higher order than Gandalf. Gandalf and Sauron were peers > only in the sense that they were boths being of the angelic order, but Sauron > was much more powerful than Olorin. > > > > > > > 1) GANDALF LEFT EA! Good! Now that's out of my system; > > This is an area I wanted to do some research on. In the Ainluindale and other > cosmology writings, it is stated that the Valar and Maiar are bound to remain > within Ea until the end of time. The death of an incarnate Ainur would not > normally have meant his release from Ea and return to the halls of Illuvatar. > Unless Tolkien changed his cosmology (which is possible as seen in Myths > Transformed), the death of Gandalf would not mean the release of Olorin from > Ea. Rather, I envision something like what happened to Saruman, except that > Gandlaf would have been accepted back into Aman where he would have been healed > and could have taken on raiment eventually. Anyway, unless changes are made to > Tolkien's cosmology, Gandalf spirit could not have returned to Illuvatar. What > appears happened is that Illuvatar "captured" Olorin's disembodied spirit and > put it back into Gandalf body (obviously having to heal it to a certain > extent). Moreover, Gandalf's reincarnation as White apparently allowed more > access to his innate powers. This intervention by Eru was apparently necessry > due to the time constraints involved. With the loss of Gandalf the Grey, there > was nothing the Valar could do on short notice to stop Sauron, short of direct > physical intervention. Only the power of Illuvatar could put Gandalf back in > play that quickly. They are also restrained in Time, yet Gandalf left Time in LotR, which is canon. > > > > The AINUR created Eä. That includes both the Maiar and Valar. > > Actually, Illuvatar created Ea. In fact, Ea simply is the word Illuvatar spoke > (meaning "let it be") when creating the physical universe. The Music of the > Ainur did not create anything. The music only created the *potential* of being, > not being itself. Only Illuvatar could give the Music reality and he did so by > making it be - Ea. Whatever. > > > >> > Such a limitation would be really dangerous. I don't think > >> > the Valar would do it (on purpose at least). > >> > >> Of course they did it on purpose! > > > > Of course they didn't! > > It was very much their intention that the Istari limit their power. There is > disagreement whether such limitation was a purely voluntary choice or, as I > believe, a function of their true body and blood incarnation as a human. > However, there is no disagreement that the Istari nevertheless limited their > use of their native power. > > >> It was partly this humbling, this > >> sacrifice which tried to atone for their poor government of the world, > >> IMO. > > > > They weren't doing a bad job! > > Well, they made two major mistakes: not dealing with Melkor earlier and > inviting the Elves to Aman. They were afraid and they were trying to protect the Elves. > >> Manwe's job was to govern Arda, not just Valinor. He made a proper > >> bags of it from the word "go" IMO, and left large parts of it to the > >> dominion of the Shadow, firstly Morgoth, latterly Sauron. > > > > Didn't want to risk killing the Elves before they woke up; > > Illuvatar told them their waiting was a mistake. They should have had more > trust in him because he would never allow the resting places of his Children to > be disturbed. Manwe, who best knew the mind of Illuvatar should have known > this. Where does Eru say this? > Russ Lśthien Tinśviel/Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way! ###### From: arain02@FSUNI.rz.uni-passau.de (Karim Arain) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:41:42 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Distribution: world Message-ID: <37efc78c.1595186@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s93sm$73k$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7sb2r5$3pk_012@Org.xenite.org> <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7scr7d$is_004@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de NNTP-Posting-Host: news.rz.uni-passau.de X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!blackbush.xlink.net!uni-erlangen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!news.rz.uni-passau.de!132.231.41.167 On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:17:33 GMT, MIchael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >In article <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de>, Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de wrote: >>About the Istari not being diminished in power, well there is still >>Letter #156: > >No, there is not. > >Limiting EXHIBITIONS of power "on the physical plane" in no way implies >that the Istari were diminished in their native strength. Well, I didn't say so, did I? I wrote "So the Istari definitely were "limited" and "hindered" in using their power (at least on the physical plane), not just willingly refraining from doing so." Letter #156 doesn't say the native strength of the Istari was diminished. But it does say that they were "limited" and "hindered" in exhibiting them "on the physical plane". Ciao. Karim --------------------------------------- Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you. ###### Message-ID: <37EFBD5B.2E46F6D1@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie> <7sbrjo$3jc_004@Org.xenite.org> <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie> <7sdol5$cc_018@Org.xenite.org> <37EE9607.E20C64D4@indigo.ie> <37EF8D9F.699FC0B3@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:54:19 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.148 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938458500 194.125.145.148 (Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:55:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:55:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Solinas wrote: > > To speak colloquially of a person "being powerful" means he can do > > thingss affect his envoronment according to his wishes. Sauron is > > portrayed as being very powerful. He ultimately wasn't, as it turned > > out. He was merely strong in some things. > > He was very powerful. > > Read Tolkien, Everybody! That's it? "He was very powerful." "Read Tolkien, Everybody!" Well thanks for the former inciteful viewpoint to which I reply; - "Not powerful enough." As well as your latter on topic exhortation, to which we all respond in a positive fashion I'm sure... M. ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <32d0cd4f.de44e785@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> Lines: 221 Bytes: 7105 X-Originating-Host: 171.66.101.84 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> <37EE9395.AB982980@indigo.ie> X-Wren-Trace: eNP23t/GgcuAmdTa2IfdyeHT19fY0ZzX0pHZ1M+Hm8SNm8WEk8KWjJGKgw== Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 23:21:01 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.16 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 938499541 10.0.2.16 (Mon, 27 Sep 1999 23:19:01 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 23:19:01 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail > > > I suspect they were not required to "train, advise, > > > instruct" people in > > > how to weild the powers of a Maiar, > > I don't think that would be possible. The power of a > > Maiar > > seemed to be something intrinsic to his/her nature, > > not > > something that could be taught. > Such was not my point. I was saying that the > limitations of their > incarnation would not affect their mission, as long as > they didn't try > to match strength with strength against Sauron, i.e > "ordinary" > counselling was not a problem. One of the limitations of their incarnation was a reduction in wisdom. A reduction in wisdom affected their ability to give "ordinary counselling". Hence the limitations of their incarnation did affect their mission. > > If I were to sing the same song that Yavanna sang > > when she > > created the 2 trees, no tree would appear. > Funnily, enough, if Manwe tried it the result would be > the same I > think... If Yavanna herself tried it again the result wouldn't be the same. > but your point relates to different powers of > the Valar, not > whether those might be learnt or not, per se. Yopu > just state that is > so, with no supporting argument. Well, if the powers of the Valar could be learned, since they have a very good memory they wouldn't have any problem in creating the trees again. > Olórin [Gandalf] > has his forte in > creative thinking, not battle. > Referring to him as a one ot the "peers of Sauron" IMO > refers to an > appoximate grading of his native strength, not any > absolute level of > ability, given his knowledge, skill and disposition. Then what does it mean that Sauron was of a "much higher order"? > > > > I don't see how their native power could > > > > suffer any reduction. > > > What use is power if it can't be applied correctly. > > > > Are you thinking about the Sorcerer's Apprentice? > > It is still power, it will have its effects on the > > world, > > even if those are not the desired effects. > More or less. More in the sense they couldn't actually > access some ways > of affecting change using their powers if they had > lost the mental > faculties to do so. SOrt of lik people losing the > power of speech after > and accident. They still know how to speak, and think, > but that part of > their brains which allows them to utter words isn't > working properly. That is not a loss of knowledge though. It is closer to the analogy of the blindfolded person. > Moans come out. Think about Gandalf trying to get into > Moria. I don't see the relation. Any Ainur would have the same problems (unless they destroyed the door). We are talking here about wits, not about knowledge or power. > > Such a limitation would be really dangerous. I don't > > think > > the Valar would do it (on purpose at least). > Of course they did it on purpose! Are you saying the Valar put the Istari on the world with full capacity to use their powers but with limited knowledge and wisdom to judge the consequences?? > THink of JRRT's Christian beliefs. Christs life > supports it. > Many people > in this thread have forgotten that thsi was a real and > present matter > for JRRT every day of his life. The thought that the > Son of God, > omnipotent, became incarnate, losing most of his godly > attributes in the > process. Is it really such a sstrange concept to you? > Me neither ;-) I seem to recall, Tolkien explicitly said that the "ressurrection" of Gandalf should not be seen as related to the ressurrection of Jesus. Is this correct? > > Anyway the above situation is very diferent. > > The guy had not the > > innate strength (power) to lift the chair while > > attached > > to the floor and was not smart enough to see the > > problem. > Its not so different. He had the ability to lift a > chair, but couldn't > do it. That's the point. The issue was how could lack > of knowledge > affect power. There is no lack of knowledge here. Only lack of wits. > Power [Hi MM, if you're reading this > you'll get the > allusion elsewhere in the thread ;-)], is defined as > "the rate of doing > work"; no work was done by the guy who couldn't lift > the chair, ergo... The scientific use of words is not always the same as the everyday use. Some examples from www.m-w.com (webster): force: strength or energy exerted or brought to bear theory: an unproved assumption field: an open land area free of woods and buildings there are other examples: wave, heat, pressure, etc > A person who has the potential to lift a chair Another word, potential, with a precise meaning in physics not always coincident with the everyday usage. Here you are using it with the meaning of "force", not "energy". > but > can't is effectively > as powerless as someone who cannot lift a chair. A > person who can > physically push a button on a remote is effectively as > powerless as > someone who can't if he doesn't know which button to > push. The way I see it we are considering to different types of power. First we have the power based on knowledge: the "magic" type of power, where, by mixing the right ingredients and saying the right words you can affect the world. Technology belongs to this kind of power. On the other extreme we have the "let there be ..." kind of power. No knowledge is involved (the words are not necessary). We may have all kinds of intermidiate types of power. Apparently Yavanna was close to the second type. Although she had to sing a song there was much more into it than that. A reduction in knowledge can only affect the first kind of power. > > > > Sauron was already more powerfull than Olorin > > > > before the later became a Istari. > > > Eh nope. Re-read the original quotations higher up > > > this thread. Gandalf > > > was his "peer". Look it up in a dictionary. > > > > I did. One of the meanings is > > > > "One belonging to the same societal group especially > > based > > on age, grade, or status" > > > > That says simply that Saruman, Gandalf > > and Sauron were all Maiar. > No. It states they were equals. That is the meaning of > "peer" in the > given context. > > That is the way the word is used in the Valaquenta at > > least: > > > > "The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World > > was in his begining Melkor;" > > > > "For he [Melkor] coveted Arda and all that was in it, > > desiring the kingship of Manwe and dominion over the > > realms of his PEERS." > And that's the way it was used referring to the > Istari. Melkor desired > dominion over the realms of his equals. Read the first phrase: how do you conciliate "mightiest" with "equal"? It is true that if they were all equal then any of them would be the mightiest but that was clearly not what Tolkien meant Joćo Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7spsr8$tk_016@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie> <7sbrjo$3jc_004@Org.xenite.org> <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie> <7sdol5$cc_018@Org.xenite.org> <37EE9607.E20C64D4@indigo.ie> <7smasg$so_014@Org.xenite.org> <37EF6E2D.B39DD632@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 25 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:04:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.146 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938505919 207.224.147.146 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:05:19 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:05:19 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37EF6E2D.B39DD632@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> In article <37EE9607.E20C64D4@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill > wrote: >> >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> >> >> Here's a more relevant clue: Tolkien identified "power" with "native >> >> strength". >> > >> >Sorry. Even in the dark ages of the early part of this century, "power" >> >was a well understood term. >> >> Please don't introduce irrelevancies. Only what Tolkien said matters. > >Wrong again, Michael. Only what Tolkien said is relevant in a discussion about what Tolkien said. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7spt2p$tk_018@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> <37EE9395.AB982980@indigo.ie> <7smaqk$so_012@Org.xenite.org> <37EF7705.2EF74F0D@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 55 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:08:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.146 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938506160 207.224.147.146 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:09:20 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:09:20 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37EF7705.2EF74F0D@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> None of the Istari seem to have been powerful enough to match Sauron >> strength-for-strength except possibly if Sauron was not in possession of >> the Ring. Their weakness before him was due to the greater nature of his >> spirit, not to their having taken on the forms of Men. > >I can't agree. The manner of their appointment and incarnation suggests >the opposite. It suggests no such thing. Tolkien in fact STATED that Sauron was stronger than they. In one account, Olorin was reluctant to go because Sauron had the greater strengh. >> They had no "problem". They did not forget who they were or where >> they came from, nor really even what their purpose was. > >Of course they suffered memory loss. > >What else was Gandalf's reason for wistfully thinking of using the >Palantķr of Orthanc to seein "the unimaginable hand and eye of Feanor at >work" if his memory was intact>? You're inferring he would have been there beside Feanor in the first place, and there is no reason to do so. Feanor worked in secret -- that much we know because so many secrets died with him. >> Whatever knowledge they may have forgotten does not appear to have >> impaired or hindered them in the least. And as Gandalf never >> stipulates what he forgot, nor when he forgot it, you are assuming >> much without anyjustification. > >Sorry, this is rec.arts.books.tolkien, not rec.arts.tv-series.LA Law, >but if you want hard logic, without any quasi legal waffle here it is. I didn't ask for hard logic. I merely pointed out that you are heaping assumption atop assumption and not going anywhere. >It patently obvious that Gandalf was aware of his limitations and worked >within them, while Saruman did not work withing *his* limitations. I >believe this points to the lesser knowledge factor. Self-knowledge, that >is, not knowledge of how to use native strength. Gandalf stayed faithful to the plan. Saruman did not. Loss of knowledge or retention of it had nothing to do with that. These were choices made by the individuals. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7spt7l$tk_020@Org.xenite.org> References: <37EF8BDA.CFA10A9E@erols.com> <19990927150909.09493.00000708@ngol06.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:11:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.146 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938506316 207.224.147.146 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:11:56 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:11:56 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990927150909.09493.00000708@ngol06.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <37EF8BDA.CFA10A9E@erols.com>, Solinas writes: >> 1) GANDALF LEFT EA! Good! Now that's out of my system; > >This is an area I wanted to do some research on. In the Ainluindale and other >cosmology writings, it is stated that the Valar and Maiar are bound to remain >within Ea until the end of time. The death of an incarnate Ainur would not >normally have meant his release from Ea and return to the halls of Illuvatar. >Unless Tolkien changed his cosmology (which is possible as seen in Myths >Transformed), the death of Gandalf would not mean the release of Olorin from >Ea. Unless Iluvatar intervened, which Tolkien says he did. Gandalf was sent back by Iluvatar, not by the Valar, whose plan had failed and which was taken up and enlarged by Iluvatar. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7spten$tk_022@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s93sm$73k$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7sb2r5$3pk_012@Org.xenite.org> <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7scr7d$is_004@Org.xenite.org> <37efc78c.1595186@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 35 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:15:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.146 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938506542 207.224.147.146 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:15:42 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:15:42 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37efc78c.1595186@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de>, Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de wrote: >On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:17:33 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>In article <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de>, > Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de wrote: >>>About the Istari not being diminished in power, well there is still >>>Letter #156: >> >>No, there is not. >> >>Limiting EXHIBITIONS of power "on the physical plane" in no way implies >>that the Istari were diminished in their native strength. > >Well, I didn't say so, did I? I wrote > >"So the Istari definitely were "limited" and "hindered" in using their >power (at least on the physical plane), not just willingly refraining >from doing so." They were definitely NOT "limited" and "hindred" in using their power on the physical plane. Tolkien states specifically "the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their EXHIBITION of 'power' on the physical plane...." There is a very great difference between the possession of power and its exhibition. The power they possessed was neither limited nor hindered. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:13:12 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7srf35$q1m$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s93sm$73k$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7sb2r5$3pk_012@Org.xenite.org> <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7scr7d$is_004@Org.xenite.org> <37efc78c.1595186@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7spten$tk_022@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.65.49 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 938557349 26678 12.75.65.49 (28 Sep 1999 22:22:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 1999 22:22:29 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7spten$tk_022@Org.xenite.org... > Tolkien states specifically "the purpose was precisely to > limit and hinder their EXHIBITION of 'power' on the > physical plane...." The purpose of 'sending them in physical bodies' that is. > There is a very great difference between the possession > of power and its exhibition. The power they possessed > was neither limited nor hindered. So how precisely does sending them in physical bodies with the purpose of limiting and hindering their exhibition of power work OTHER than in making them UNABLE to exhibit such power? You are assuming that they were voluntarily refraining from exhibiting power, but the text you are snipping the relevant portions of states that they were sent in physical forms to bring this limitation about - ergo, it was not something they were doing by choice, but a limit / hindrance imposed by their forms. ###### Message-ID: <37F10701.19BAE49F@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie> <7sbrjo$3jc_004@Org.xenite.org> <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie> <7sdol5$cc_018@Org.xenite.org> <37EE9607.E20C64D4@indigo.ie> <7smasg$so_014@Org.xenite.org> <37EF6E2D.B39DD632@indigo.ie> <7spsr8$tk_016@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 19:20:49 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.138 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938542893 194.125.145.138 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 19:21:33 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 19:21:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.esat.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <37EF6E2D.B39DD632@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> > >> In article <37EE9607.E20C64D4@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill > > wrote: > >> >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Here's a more relevant clue: Tolkien identified "power" with "native > >> >> strength". > >> > > >> >Sorry. Even in the dark ages of the early part of this century, "power" > >> >was a well understood term. > >> > >> Please don't introduce irrelevancies. Only what Tolkien said matters. > > > >Wrong again, Michael. > > Only what Tolkien said is relevant in a discussion about what Tolkien said. That's simply incorrect. Where it concerns a theme of a published work, many factors which may have affected it are relevant. For example, the author's avowed religious beliefs are particularly relevant to the current thread, a central tenet of which involves the Son of God becoming a mortal man, born of woman, and dying on a cross, going through suffering and pain, leading to the sacrifice of his life for the good of all mankind, and all without his godly powers or absolute knowledge to help him get by. Sounds familiar? And I've already commented on the somewhat malleable quality of the body of work as a whole over time. There's no grounds for absolutism there. So if you disagree with my position, which I've previously stated quite clearly in this discussion, please refute me with either a reasoned argument or the author's relevant words. *still waiting...* :-) M. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7srhm3$1pg_020@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E93581.2E9AA33@indigo.ie> <7sbetk$3no_004@Org.xenite.org> <37E95296.F5E60600@indigo.ie> <7sbrjo$3jc_004@Org.xenite.org> <37EA20DC.4D4CA058@indigo.ie> <7sdol5$cc_018@Org.xenite.org> <37EE9607.E20C64D4@indigo.ie> <7smasg$so_014@Org.xenite.org> <37EF6E2D.B39DD632@indigo.ie> <7spsr8$tk_016@Org.xenite.org> <37F10701.19BAE49F@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 17 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 23:06:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.96 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938560029 209.181.118.96 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:07:09 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:07:09 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37F10701.19BAE49F@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> Only what Tolkien said is relevant in a discussion about what Tolkien said. > >That's simply incorrect. No, it is QUITE correct. Tolkien defined the terms which describe his world, so only HIS definitions count. No one else's. Middle-earth is derived of Tolkien's imagination, not from a physics text book. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 13:04:35 -0400 Lines: 42 Message-ID: <37F24692.99E8F035@erols.com> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> <37EE9395.AB982980@indigo.ie> <32d0cd4f.de44e785@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: kpWuJnGYAapOwDmSnxeJSVZZEFRjjp/DdpwUu02T6pM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Sep 1999 21:02:10 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail JP wrote: > One of the limitations of their incarnation was a > reduction in wisdom. How was their wisdom reduced? > If Yavanna herself tried it again the result wouldn't > be the same. Not in a hundred light-years. > I don't see the relation. Any Ainur would have the same > problems (unless they destroyed the door). > We are talking here about wits, not about knowledge or > power. Yip, and I don't think a good Ainu would smashed it unless he had to, as shown by Gandalf. > Are you saying the Valar put the Istari on the world > with full capacity to use their powers but with limited > knowledge and wisdom to judge the consequences?? "'This is a strange thought,' said Manwe." Of Aulė and Yavanna, Silmarillion > Joćo Paulo Lśthien Tinśviel/Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7svj0o$2is_020@Org.xenite.org> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s93sm$73k$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7sb2r5$3pk_012@Org.xenite.org> <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7scr7d$is_004@Org.xenite.org> <37efc78c.1595186@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7spten$tk_022@Org.xenite.org> <37f3ac04.9226411@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:54:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.195 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938692461 207.224.149.195 (Thu, 30 Sep 1999 06:54:21 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 06:54:21 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37f3ac04.9226411@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de>, Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de wrote: >On Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:15:19 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: >>They were definitely NOT "limited" and "hindred" in using their power on >>the physical plane. > >Huh? What else does EXHIBITION mean in your book? Here is a suggestion. Get a firecracker. Hold it in your hand. Do not ever light it. You will find, upon close inspection, that you are not exhibiting the power of the firecracker. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: arain02@FSUNI.rz.uni-passau.de (Karim Arain) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:35:51 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Lines: 53 Distribution: world Message-ID: <37f3ac04.9226411@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s93sm$73k$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7sb2r5$3pk_012@Org.xenite.org> <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7scr7d$is_004@Org.xenite.org> <37efc78c.1595186@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7spten$tk_022@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de NNTP-Posting-Host: news.rz.uni-passau.de X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-x.support.nl!bignews.mediaways.net!f.de.uu.net!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!news.rz.uni-passau.de!132.231.41.167 On Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:15:19 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >In article <37efc78c.1595186@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de>, Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de wrote: >>On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:17:33 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >>Martinez) wrote: >> >>>In article <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de>, >> Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de wrote: >>>>About the Istari not being diminished in power, well there is still >>>>Letter #156: >>> >>>No, there is not. >>> >>>Limiting EXHIBITIONS of power "on the physical plane" in no way implies >>>that the Istari were diminished in their native strength. >> >>Well, I didn't say so, did I? I wrote >> >>"So the Istari definitely were "limited" and "hindered" in using their >>power (at least on the physical plane), not just willingly refraining >>from doing so." > >They were definitely NOT "limited" and "hindred" in using their power on >the physical plane. Huh? What else does EXHIBITION mean in your book? I would say it exactly means what it says: the visible use (=exhibition) of their power was limited. And it was no voluntary act (that is, after becoming Istari they COULD NOT exhibit their full power) as the letter states that this exhibition was "limited" and "hindered" not just merely "refrained from". >Tolkien states specifically "the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder >their EXHIBITION of 'power' on the physical plane...." Yes. >There is a very great difference between the possession of power and its >exhibition. The power they possessed was neither limited nor hindered. Huh? Where does the "possession" of power now come from? I thought we had already agreed that the Istari's possession of power was not limited. It is merely the EXHIBITION = visible use of their power that is hindered. Ciao. Karim -- Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 17:23:17 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7t0ktp$iup$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s93sm$73k$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7sb2r5$3pk_012@Org.xenite.org> <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7scr7d$is_004@Org.xenite.org> <37efc78c.1595186@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7spten$tk_022@Org.xenite.org> <37f3ac04.9226411@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7svj0o$2is_020@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.83.102 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 938727161 19417 12.75.83.102 (30 Sep 1999 21:32:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Sep 1999 21:32:41 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!attmtf!ip.att.net!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnslave1!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7svj0o$2is_020@Org.xenite.org... > Here is a suggestion. Get a firecracker. Hold it in > your hand. Do not ever light it. > You will find, upon close inspection, that you are not > exhibiting the power of the firecracker. Pull the fuse out and you will find that you have limited and hindered it's exhibition of power. ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <0a4e4e44.71dce7b5@usw-ex0108-059.remarq.com> Lines: 59 Bytes: 1983 X-Originating-Host: 171.66.101.84 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s93sm$73k$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7sb2r5$3pk_012@Org.xenite.org> <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7scr7d$is_004@Org.xenite.org> <37efc78c.1595186@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7spten$tk_022@Org.xenite.org> X-Wren-Trace: eDYTOzojZC5lfDE/PWI4LAQ2MjI9NHkyN3Q8MSpifiFofiBhdidzaXRvZg== Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:22:09 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.59 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 938748300 10.0.2.59 (Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:25:00 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:25:00 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail In article <7spten$tk_022@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > They were definitely NOT "limited" and "hindred" in > using their power on > the physical plane. > Tolkien states specifically "the purpose was precisely > to limit and hinder > their EXHIBITION of 'power' on the physical plane...." Lets assume that "the purpose" was attained. Then: The Istari were limited and hindred in EXHIBITING their power on the physical plane. You say that The Istari were not limited and hindred in USING their power on the physical plane. I agree that 'to use' and 'to exhibit' have different meanings. If "EXHIBITION OF POWER" means "SHOWING THEMSELVES IN POWERFULL FORMS" then what you say makes sense and clearly their incarnation would limit that ability. They were still able to exhibit their power in that way. There is a nice example of exhibition of power at the begining of LoTR when Bilbo doesn't want to get rid of the ring: "He took a step towards the hobbit, and he seemed to grow taller and menacing;his shadow filled the little room." The idea that they should not impose themselves by fear gives strength to this postition. But the letter goes on to explain why they should be limited in their exhibition of power: > so that they should do what they were primarily > sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and > minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with > their own strengths; AND NOT JUST DO THE JOB FOR THEM." It is as if they were limited so that they could not just go and attack Sauron directly themselves. If this is correct then it seems more likely to me that "exhibition of power" means the (public) use of their power. P.S. I agree that their native strength was in no way limited Joćo Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <18dae34d.7311210b@usw-ex0108-059.remarq.com> Lines: 21 Bytes: 666 X-Originating-Host: 171.66.101.84 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> <37EE9395.AB982980@indigo.ie> <32d0cd4f.de44e785@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> <37F24692.99E8F035@erols.com> X-Wren-Trace: eExpQUBZHlQfBktFRxhCVn5MSEhHTgNITQ5GS1AYBFsSBFobDF0JEw4VHA== Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:26:46 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.59 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 938748577 10.0.2.59 (Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:29:37 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:29:37 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Ermanna wrote: > JP wrote: > > > One of the limitations of their incarnation was a > > reduction in wisdom. > How was their wisdom reduced? From UT: "For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." Joćo Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Message-ID: <37F57754.2D69C550@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <0f8c6c44.f834cdf8@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <37E930AB.91869BC1@indigo.ie> <067c35e3.776d7d58@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com> <37EE9395.AB982980@indigo.ie> <7smaqk$so_012@Org.xenite.org> <37EF7705.2EF74F0D@indigo.ie> <7spt2p$tk_018@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 73 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 04:09:08 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.151 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 938833800 194.125.145.151 (Sat, 02 Oct 1999 04:10:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 04:10:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <37EF7705.2EF74F0D@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> > >> None of the Istari seem to have been powerful enough to match Sauron > >> strength-for-strength except possibly if Sauron was not in possession of > >> the Ring. Their weakness before him was due to the greater nature of his > >> spirit, not to their having taken on the forms of Men. > > > >I can't agree. The manner of their appointment and incarnation suggests > >the opposite. > > It suggests no such thing. Tolkien in fact STATED that Sauron was stronger > than they. In one account, Olorin was reluctant to go because Sauron had > the greater strengh. > > >> They had no "problem". They did not forget who they were or where > >> they came from, nor really even what their purpose was. > > > >Of course they suffered memory loss. > > > >What else was Gandalf's reason for wistfully thinking of using the > >Palantķr of Orthanc to seein "the unimaginable hand and eye of Feanor at > >work" if his memory was intact>? > > You're inferring he would have been there beside Feanor in the first place, > and there is no reason to do so. Feanor worked in secret -- that much we > know because so many secrets died with him. > > >> Whatever knowledge they may have forgotten does not appear to have > >> impaired or hindered them in the least. And as Gandalf never > >> stipulates what he forgot, nor when he forgot it, you are assuming > >> much without anyjustification. > > > >Sorry, this is rec.arts.books.tolkien, not rec.arts.tv-series.LA Law, > >but if you want hard logic, without any quasi legal waffle here it is. > > I didn't ask for hard logic. I merely pointed out that you are heaping > assumption atop assumption and not going anywhere. > > >It patently obvious that Gandalf was aware of his limitations and worked > >within them, while Saruman did not work withing *his* limitations. I > >believe this points to the lesser knowledge factor. Self-knowledge, that > >is, not knowledge of how to use native strength. > > Gandalf stayed faithful to the plan. Saruman did not. > > Loss of knowledge or retention of it had nothing to do with that. These > were choices made by the individuals. So people who have lost some of their cognitive faculties are the same as people who haven't in terms of sound judgement? To take an extreme case; tell that to teh relatives of people killed by drunken drivers; their higher faculties dulled beyond a certain point, not insensate, their base motivations are unloosed, resulting in poor judgement and aggressive behaviour? Sound like an Istari near you? Yep. Saruman. You might revisit my previosu utterances with that little example in mind. Then again, you may not want to admit the facts of the matter at all. Over to you, MM. m. ###### From: arain02@FSUNI.rz.uni-passau.de (Karim Arain) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari Incarnation and "Weakening" Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 22:32:34 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Lines: 26 Distribution: world Message-ID: <37fa7c1e.2360346@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> References: <4528-37E304B5-41@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <19990917235205.03896.00000232@ngol03.aol.com> <7s031u$c8j$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7s09nj$ho$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s0nbs$3kc_018@Org.xenite.org> <7s0ucr$9ce$1@zingo.tninet.se> <7s10sa$2a4_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s34b3$otl$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37E77023.D3A2F8C8@indigo.ie> <7s8k63$278_010@Org.xenite.org> <7s93sm$73k$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37e92bc0.9302702@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7sb2r5$3pk_012@Org.xenite.org> <37ea5f39.5624704@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7scr7d$is_004@Org.xenite.org> <37efc78c.1595186@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7spten$tk_022@Org.xenite.org> <37f3ac04.9226411@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7svj0o$2is_020@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de NNTP-Posting-Host: news.rz.uni-passau.de X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!news.rz.uni-passau.de!132.231.41.167 On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:54:00 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >In article <37f3ac04.9226411@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de>, Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de wrote: >>On Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:15:19 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >>Martinez) wrote: >>>They were definitely NOT "limited" and "hindred" in using their power on >>>the physical plane. >> >>Huh? What else does EXHIBITION mean in your book? > >Here is a suggestion. Get a firecracker. Hold it in your hand. Do not >ever light it. > >You will find, upon close inspection, that you are not exhibiting the power >of the firecracker. I will also find that I am not visibly using it. So my definition of "exhibition" as "visible use" seems to be valid. Therefore the Istari WERE "limited" and "hindered" in (visibly) using their power on the physical plane. Ciao. Karim -- Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you.