From: Johnathan George Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: "Gandalf is here" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:59:20 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 14 Message-ID: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.3d.5c Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 17 Sep 1999 14:00:35 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!chi.uu.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail I have been re-reading FOTR lately, and I came across something that has always puzzled me. When the company is stranded in the snow on Caradhras, and Gandalf finally lights a fire he says something along the lines of "I have written 'Gandalf is here' is signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin". My question is why did he do that? I've always taken him to mean that anyone between Rivendell and the mouths of Anduin who happened to be looking that way could have seen that Gandalf was there. That seems sort of a rash thing to do since they were trying to avoid detection. Are there any alternate interprations of this that would seem more reasonable? If not, why did he do this? Johnathan ###### From: Johnathan George Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:25:57 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 25 Message-ID: <37E24F74.1A556106@mindspring.com> References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.3d.5c Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 17 Sep 1999 14:27:11 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail wares@rhoda.fordham.edu wrote: > > > My question is why did he do that? I've always taken him to mean that > > anyone between Rivendell and the mouths of Anduin who happened to be > > looking that way could have seen that Gandalf was there. That seems > > sort of a rash thing to do since they were trying to avoid detection. > > Are there any alternate interprations of this that would seem more > > reasonable? If not, why did he do this? > > Because it was a choice of fire or freezing to death, and less spectacular > attempts at starting a fire had failed. Yes, obviously that's why he started the fire. My question was why did he reveal himself to everyone from the mouths of the Anduin to Rivendell? Was he really unable to start a fire without writing his location in signs all could read for many miles around? Johnathan George > wares@rhoda.fordham.edu ###### From: Andrew Carol Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:27:35 -0700 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 16 Distribution: world Message-ID: <170919991227359845%acarolX@apple.com> References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> <37E24F74.1A556106@mindspring.com> <7rtoui$kmq$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37E27547.38C7A54A@mindspring.com> <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew3.apple.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.2.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!acarolX In article <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael Martinez wrote: > What people are trying to tell you is that anyone living in those regions > Gandalf described who, passing by Caradhras at that instant, would have > recognized the fireburst as being something Gandalf could do and probably > would have realized he was on the mountain. Through the fog and clouds which would have accompanied the snow, I doubt anybody could have seen his fire directly from more than a few hundred yards away. I always interpreted his comment to mean that those who were practisioners in the magical arts could read the signs to know that Gandolf was doing his brand of magic in the area. Sort of a "disturbance in the force" kind of thing. ###### From: Johnathan George Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 14:13:35 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 18 Message-ID: <37E284CF.E80924DA@mindspring.com> References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> <37E24F74.1A556106@mindspring.com> <7rtoui$kmq$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37E27547.38C7A54A@mindspring.com> <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.3d.5c Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 17 Sep 1999 18:15:00 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!isdnet!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > What people are trying to tell you is that anyone living in those regions > Gandalf described who, passing by Caradhras at that instant, would have > recognized the fireburst as being something Gandalf could do and probably > would have realized he was on the mountain. Hmmm. If that's what they were trying to say they were doing it in a bit of a strange way. Or maybe I'm just hopelessly dense. I think that is probably the best explanation yet though. It still seems a bit of a strange way for Gandalf to say it, but that's probably what he meant. Johnathan ###### From: wares@rhoda.fordham.edu Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Message-ID: <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> Organization: Fordham University Lines: 13 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: rhoda.library.fordham.edu Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 14:23:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.108.2.16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@digex.net X-Trace: dca1-nnrp1.news.digex.net 937578207 150.108.2.16 (Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:23:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:23:27 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!dca1-nnrp1.news.digex.net.POSTED!news.fordham.edu.!rhoda.fordham.edu!wares > My question is why did he do that? I've always taken him to mean that > anyone between Rivendell and the mouths of Anduin who happened to be > looking that way could have seen that Gandalf was there. That seems > sort of a rash thing to do since they were trying to avoid detection. > Are there any alternate interprations of this that would seem more > reasonable? If not, why did he do this? Because it was a choice of fire or freezing to death, and less spectacular attempts at starting a fire had failed. Michael Wares wares@rhoda.fordham.edu ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org> References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> <37E24F74.1A556106@mindspring.com> <7rtoui$kmq$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37E27547.38C7A54A@mindspring.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:45:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.116 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937590470 209.181.118.116 (Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:47:50 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:47:50 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37E27547.38C7A54A@mindspring.com>, Johnathan George wrote: >Ok, I can buy that he didn't actually do sky writing that said "Gandalf >is here", although it's not clear to me that he didn't. But was the >part about Rivendell to the mouths of the Anduin also a bit of >hyperbole? Did he really mean everyone in the general vicinity could >tell he was there? That's the part that bothers me. Couldn't he have >lit the fire in a bit less dramatic fashion so as not to give their >position away? What people are trying to tell you is that anyone living in those regions Gandalf described who, passing by Caradhras at that instant, would have recognized the fireburst as being something Gandalf could do and probably would have realized he was on the mountain. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "John Kendrick the Magnificent" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> <37E24F74.1A556106@mindspring.com> <7rtoui$kmq$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37E27547.38C7A54A@mindspring.com> <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org> Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:16:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.105.203 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.tx.home.com 937592165 24.0.105.203 (Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:16:05 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:16:05 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org... > In article <37E27547.38C7A54A@mindspring.com>, Johnathan George wrote: > >Ok, I can buy that he didn't actually do sky writing that said "Gandalf > >is here", although it's not clear to me that he didn't. But was the > >part about Rivendell to the mouths of the Anduin also a bit of > >hyperbole? Did he really mean everyone in the general vicinity could > >tell he was there? That's the part that bothers me. Couldn't he have > >lit the fire in a bit less dramatic fashion so as not to give their > >position away? Ok, the company had a Dwarf (who were perty good at lighting fires) a Ranger, who, with his fiel-lore must have been good at fires, and Hobbits who, given the degree of comfort they are used to would probably have the full strength of desperation at their disposal ( :) ) and none of them could light a fire. So it perty much stands to reason that seeing a odd coloured flame in the middle of a blizzard so strong that none of the above could light a fire is one dead give away that the master of light and fire is hanging around. Remember, the magic Gandalf used brought out GREEN abd BLUE flames, wich, even in ME are not normal :) -- I cant Believe its not Lembas! Go not to the Elves for Counsel, for they tell embarasing stories about me! http://john.kendrick.com ###### From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> <37E24F74.1A556106@mindspring.com> Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990805 ("Preacher Man") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: soolin.ecs.soton.ac.uk Message-ID: <37e29e25@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 17 Sep 1999 21:01:41 GMT X-Trace: 17 Sep 1999 21:01:41 GMT, soolin.ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 40 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peer.news.zoo.co.uk!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news-spool.soton.ac.uk!news.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Johnathan George wrote: >wares@rhoda.fordham.edu wrote: >> >> > My question is why did he do that? I've always taken him to mean that >> > anyone between Rivendell and the mouths of Anduin who happened to be >> > looking that way could have seen that Gandalf was there. That seems >> > sort of a rash thing to do since they were trying to avoid detection. >> > Are there any alternate interprations of this that would seem more >> > reasonable? If not, why did he do this? >> >> Because it was a choice of fire or freezing to death, and less spectacular >> attempts at starting a fire had failed. >Yes, obviously that's why he started the fire. My question was why did >he reveal himself to everyone from the mouths of the Anduin to >Rivendell? Was he really unable to start a fire without writing his >location in signs all could read for many miles around? No. He was collaborating with Saruman at the time, and did this on purpose. You do realise that "writing a sign" is merely a metaphor? He did not cause +---------------------------------------------------------+ | G A N D A L F I S N E A R T H E R E D H O R N | +--------------------------+-+----------------------------+ | | | | to happen anywhere. Right? It just means that his "magic" was detectable by anyone skilled enough to do so. -- Robert The ASCII Consortium : dragging character encoding kicking and screaming into the 20th century! ###### From: xaecarol@ix.netcom.com (Andrew Carol) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 21:35:06 -0700 Organization: Netcom Lines: 42 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> <37E24F74.1A556106@mindspring.com> <7rtoui$kmq$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37E27547.38C7A54A@mindspring.com> <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org> <170919991227359845%acarolX@apple.com> <7rumcg$1h0_016@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ali-ca13-43.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 17 11:31:13 PM CDT 1999 X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!xaecarol In article <7rumcg$1h0_016@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > In article <170919991227359845%acarolX@apple.com>, Andrew Carol wrote: > >In article <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael Martinez > > wrote: > > > >> What people are trying to tell you is that anyone living in those regions > >> Gandalf described who, passing by Caradhras at that instant, would have > >> recognized the fireburst as being something Gandalf could do and probably > >> would have realized he was on the mountain. snip > > 'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,' > he said. 'I have written GANDALF IS HERE in signs that all can > read from Rivendell to the Mouths of Anduin.' > Rivendell is about 150 miles (as the crow flys) from Caradhras, while the Mouths of Anduin are about 600 miles. Given the storm which must have strongly limited visibility and the extreme distances, the "signs" almost certainly could not have been direct visibility of the green flame. (The curve of the earth alone would prevent that!) The common usage of 'signs' which I've seen means an indirect indication of something (a sign is not the thing, but a pointer to the thing). Use of the word 'read' strengthens this. (If the flame were directly visible, he might have said "see" rather than "read".) I read this passage as Gandalf implying that the use of magic does not go unnoticed by those skilled in the arts in the area. He may also have been exagerating a bit. If he was serious that would mean Sauruman (who was only about 250 miles away) would have known exactly where he was. On the other hand maybe he was completly serious and Sauruman did know know where he was. Oh well...... ---- Andrew -- Andrew Carol xaecarol@ix.netcom.com (Remove leading x from my address to e-mail) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rum83$1h0_014@Org.xenite.org> References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> <37E24F74.1A556106@mindspring.com> <7rtoui$kmq$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37E27547.38C7A54A@mindspring.com> <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org> <37E284CF.E80924DA@mindspring.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 23 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 00:26:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.116 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937614513 209.181.118.116 (Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:28:33 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:28:33 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!newspeer1.nac.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37E284CF.E80924DA@mindspring.com>, Johnathan George wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> What people are trying to tell you is that anyone living in those regions >> Gandalf described who, passing by Caradhras at that instant, would have >> recognized the fireburst as being something Gandalf could do and probably >> would have realized he was on the mountain. > >Hmmm. If that's what they were trying to say they were doing it in a >bit of a strange way. Or maybe I'm just hopelessly dense. I dunno. As soon as I posted that I saw another article saying something completely different. Don't feel bad just because you have a dozen people shouting at you as you try to dance your way merrily through the barfight.... -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rumcg$1h0_016@Org.xenite.org> References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> <37E24F74.1A556106@mindspring.com> <7rtoui$kmq$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37E27547.38C7A54A@mindspring.com> <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org> <170919991227359845%acarolX@apple.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 00:29:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.116 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937614654 209.181.118.116 (Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:30:54 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:30:54 CDT Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <170919991227359845%acarolX@apple.com>, Andrew Carol wrote: >In article <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael Martinez > wrote: > >> What people are trying to tell you is that anyone living in those regions >> Gandalf described who, passing by Caradhras at that instant, would have >> recognized the fireburst as being something Gandalf could do and probably >> would have realized he was on the mountain. > >Through the fog and clouds which would have accompanied the snow, I >doubt anybody could have seen his fire directly from more than a few >hundred yards away. > >I always interpreted his comment to mean that those who were >practisioners in the magical arts could read the signs to know that >Gandolf was doing his brand of magic in the area. Sort of a >"disturbance in the force" kind of thing. 'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,' he said. 'I have written GANDALF IS HERE in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the Mouths of Anduin.' Your mileage may vary. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: sac62513@saclink3.csus.edu (Don Teeter) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Date: 18 Sep 1999 00:46:30 GMT Organization: California State University Sacramento Lines: 16 Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rund6$t5s@news.csus.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sac62513%@saclink3.csus.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2.csus01] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!news-stl.cp.verio.net!news.verio.net!csus.edu!saclink3.csus.edu!sac62513 : 'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,' : he said. 'I have written GANDALF IS HERE in signs that all can : read from Rivendell to the Mouths of Anduin.' : Your mileage may vary. Exactly. I first read this when I was twelve in oh, 1970, and never had any trouble understanding what he meant. It's the sort of low-level levity that makes the book so enjoyable to read. Kind of like when as a teenager I would come home late from a date and park my car with a screeching of tires and shut off the engine with a roar. If there were any to hear, I at least was revealed to them. I wrote DON IS HOME in signs that all could read from the shopping center to the freeway. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rvehj$3ps_012@Org.xenite.org> References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> <37E24F74.1A556106@mindspring.com> <7rtoui$kmq$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37E27547.38C7A54A@mindspring.com> <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org> <170919991227359845%acarolX@apple.com> <7rumcg$1h0_016@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 30 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:21:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.215 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937639404 207.224.149.215 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 02:23:24 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 02:23:24 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , xaecarol@ix.netcom.com (Andrew Carol) wrote: >In article <7rumcg$1h0_016@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >> 'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,' >> he said. 'I have written GANDALF IS HERE in signs that all can >> read from Rivendell to the Mouths of Anduin.' >> > >Rivendell is about 150 miles (as the crow flys) from Caradhras, while >the Mouths of Anduin are about 600 miles. Given the storm which must have >strongly limited visibility and the extreme distances, the "signs" >almost certainly could not have been direct visibility of the green >flame. (The curve of the earth alone would prevent that!) The signs WERE the green blast. Period. Gandalf's show of power revealed that a wizard who used flame was on the mountainside. This really doesn't need to be rendered into a complex multifaceted philosophical debate concerning the metaphorical symmetries of Istarological imagery in duo-syntactical literary subterfuge. Gandalf really was just saying, "That burst of flame has announced my presence, if there's anyone out there who gives a damn at this point." -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: xaecarol@ix.netcom.com (Andrew Carol) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 09:08:18 -0700 Organization: Netcom Lines: 55 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> <37E24F74.1A556106@mindspring.com> <7rtoui$kmq$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37E27547.38C7A54A@mindspring.com> <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org> <170919991227359845%acarolX@apple.com> <7rumcg$1h0_016@Org.xenite.org> <7rvehj$3ps_012@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ali-ca15-43.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 18 11:04:24 AM CDT 1999 X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!newsfeed.online.be!news.belnet.be!isdnet!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!xaecarol In article <7rvehj$3ps_012@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > In article , xaecarol@ix.netcom.com (Andrew Carol) wrote: > >In article <7rumcg$1h0_016@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > >Martinez) wrote: > > > >> 'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,' > >> he said. 'I have written GANDALF IS HERE in signs that all can > >> read from Rivendell to the Mouths of Anduin.' > >> > > > >Rivendell is about 150 miles (as the crow flys) from Caradhras, while > >the Mouths of Anduin are about 600 miles. Given the storm which must have > >strongly limited visibility and the extreme distances, the "signs" > >almost certainly could not have been direct visibility of the green > >flame. (The curve of the earth alone would prevent that!) > > The signs WERE the green blast. Period. Gandalf's show of power revealed > that a wizard who used flame was on the mountainside. My edition says "great spout" which causes the wood to sputter. That is much less exciting than a "blast" which implies an explosion. Gandalf said his presence was "written" and could be "read". Since the dawn of Man, writing something is to make a lasting record. He did not say he could be "seen" or "heard" (real-time observation) but that he wrote and could be read. In almost every example of "reading signs" that I can think of, it's the observation of realativly long lasting indirect indication of the presence of something, rather than a direct observation of the thing or it's effects as they happen. Think reading signs of deer, Indians, etc. Subtle. Indirect. Those with the skills can see and interpret them. > > This really doesn't need to be rendered into a complex multifaceted > philosophical debate concerning the metaphorical symmetries of > Istarological imagery in duo-syntactical literary subterfuge. Wow. Say that five times fast. ;-) Certainly no one could have seen the fire more than a few dozen yards away (the snow still thickly fell), then why the strong resistance and his solemn announcement of a region of _hundreds_ of square miles? Gandalf was not known for being over dramatic. Oh well.... -- Andrew Carol xaecarol@ix.netcom.com (Remove leading x from my address to e-mail) ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:59:46 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 31 Message-ID: <7s0bjt$epo$2@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> <37E24F74.1A556106@mindspring.com> <7rtoui$kmq$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37E27547.38C7A54A@mindspring.com> <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org> <170919991227359845%acarolX@apple.com> <7rumcg$1h0_016@Org.xenite.org> <7rvehj$3ps_012@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.83.34 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 937669053 15160 12.75.83.34 (18 Sep 1999 15:37:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1999 15:37:33 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newshub.northeast.verio.net!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!attmtf!ip.att.net!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7rvehj$3ps_012@Org.xenite.org... > The signs WERE the green blast. Period. Gandalf's show > of power revealed that a wizard who used flame was on the > mountainside. > Gandalf really was just saying, "That burst of flame has > announced my presence, if there's anyone out there who > gives a damn at this point." That much is obvious. The question at hand is whether the blast revealed his presence by being SEEN or by being FELT in a magical sense. To assume that it would be seen 600 miles away at the Mouths of the Anduin we must assume that the snowstorm did not obscure it, that it was bright enough to have been seen at that distance despite diffusion from the atmosphere it must pass through, and that it was LARGE enough to extend up over the crest of the mountain such that it could be seen on the far side. From the description in the text it does not seem to be anywhere near large or bright enough to visibly do what Gandalf says it would. Thus, it must either be announcing his presence in some way beyond the visible or Gandalf's statement must not have been true. ###### Message-ID: <37E3AE43.3014014B@swipnet.se> From: "Elio M. Garcia, Jr." X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Gandalf is here" References: <37E24938.D33FAAF9@mindspring.com> <1999Sep17.102322@rhoda.fordham.edu> <37E24F74.1A556106@mindspring.com> <7rtoui$kmq$1@cubacola.tninet.se> <37E27547.38C7A54A@mindspring.com> <7rtuod$1mc_010@Org.xenite.org> <170919991227359845%acarolX@apple.com> <7rumcg$1h0_016@Org.xenite.org> <7rvehj$3ps_012@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 31 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:22:43 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.41.157 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 937668165 130.244.41.157 (Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:22:45 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:22:45 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > The signs WERE the green blast. Period. Gandalf's show of power revealed > that a wizard who used flame was on the mountainside. The question is, "Revealed to _whom_?" Anyone with eyes to see, or anyone with magical talent to feel and understand? > Gandalf really was just saying, "That burst of flame has announced my > presence, if there's anyone out there who gives a damn at this point." The question that others are trying to answer is whether he means the burst-of-flame-as-visible-sign (which has been pointed out is improbable) or the burst-of-flame-as-magical-sign (which seems to be the case.) I think it's perfectly valid to consider that and then wonder just how much hyperbole was or was not going into his statement -- just how many people _could_ recognize that strong use of magic (or whatever you want to call it) from a distance, and from how far away? Galadriel, Elrond, Saruman, and Sauron seem safe bets. What about Cirdan? Could Denethor get a glimpse of it through either Numenorean sensitivity or the palantir? What about the Balrog? And so on. -- [Upon a Dzurlord learning of the murder of a critic by a painter] "And it was well done, too. I'd have done the same, only-" "Yes?" "I don't paint." (Steven Brust, _The Phoenix Guards_) Elio M. García, Jr. (elio@swipnet.se)