From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 01:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 10 Message-ID: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhRvVDsy3N6Sye123Md8DmYvUuPdTAIVAMk5ja0tO+pLss06mA4Qgteo803Z Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.fast.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Now, most of us here know that Celebrimbor created the Three Rings, Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, to ward of the decays of time, and postpone the weariness of the world; to give a sort of timelessness to all the works of the elves. Of course, these rings are very elvish in nature, and they worked the way they should, not having been cursed by the touch of Sauron. But what was the purpose of the Seven and the Nine? Not Sauron's purpose, of course, which as the readers of this ng almost certainly know was to enslave the peoples of ME, but the purpose that was truly intended by Celebrimbor and the other Noldor. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 08:25:27 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7rg6jl$oke$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.67 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 937139637 25230 12.79.23.67 (12 Sep 1999 12:33:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 1999 12:33:57 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail David Sulger wrote in message news:19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net... > But what was the purpose of the Seven and the Nine? Not > Sauron's purpose, of course, which as the readers of this > ng almost certainly know was to enslave the peoples of > ME, but the purpose that was truly intended by > Celebrimbor and the other Noldor. My understanding is that all the Great Rings, and even the lesser rings, were intended to have two primary goals; 1: Preservation of things around them, similar to the 'natural' state of affairs in Aman AND 2: Enhancement of the inherent 'powers' or sub-creative abilities of the wearer The three 'Elven Rings' were simply the most effective of the many efforts in this regard. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 08:31:14 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 17 Message-ID: <7rg6ug$pc0$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rfonu$2u0_016@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.67 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 937139984 25984 12.79.23.67 (12 Sep 1999 12:39:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 1999 12:39:44 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7rfonu$2u0_016@Org.xenite.org... > The Seven and the Nine, unlike the Three, conferred > invisibility. I don't understand WHY they should do so. JRRT seems to attribute this to Sauron having 'cursed' or 'altered' the seven and the nine after capturing them... along with the other powers and effects of these Rings beyond those originally intended. How this ties in with the story amongst the Longbeards that they recieved a Ring directly from the Elves is an interesting question. That Ring might not have been 'tainted' in the same way as the others until Sauron captured it... or perhaps he could use the One to taint it from afar while it was being worn. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rfonu$2u0_016@Org.xenite.org> References: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 52 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 08:37:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.164 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937125539 207.224.149.164 (Sun, 12 Sep 1999 03:38:59 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 03:38:59 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: >Now, most of us here know that Celebrimbor created the Three Rings, >Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, to ward of the decays of time, and postpone the >weariness of the world; to give a sort of timelessness to all the works >of the elves. Of course, these rings are very elvish in nature, and >they worked the way they should, not having been cursed by the touch of >Sauron. But what was the purpose of the Seven and the Nine? Not >Sauron's purpose, of course, which as the readers of this ng almost >certainly know was to enslave the peoples of ME, but the purpose that >was truly intended by Celebrimbor and the other Noldor. Actually, ALL of the Great Rings were created to ward off the decays of Time. The One Ring was really created to grant Sauron control over the other Rings and all that was done with them (and through them their keepers), but Tolkien said it possessed all the powers of the other Rings, so it, too, had to hold back Time. The Seven and the Nine, unlike the Three, conferred invisibility. I don't understand WHY they should do so. The Elves seem not to have been too upset at the thought of consorting with spirits, but it does strike me as being a bit necromantic. These Rings could also be used to make visible things which were normally not visible -- but Tolkien only mentions this in passing and he doesn't provide any examples. The Rings also enhanced the natural powers of their possessors. So any Elves who wore the Seven and the Nine would have been greater "sorcerors" or "magicians" than they were without the Rings. Their sub-creational faculties were enhanced, and undoubtedly they should have been able to accomplish great things had they used those Rings longer than they did (at most only about 90 years). It might be that the Gwaith-i-Mirdain also hoped to approach some of the accomplishments of Feanor through their use of the Rings. Keep in mind that Elrond said the Elves desired "understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained." The Rings need not confer specific powers to enable their possessors to do these things if they need only enhance their native talents. A perceptive Elf should have become more perceptive while wearing one of the Great Rings. A creative Elf, though not necessarily more inspired, should have been able to make more with one of the Rings than without. And so on and so forth. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37db7b1d.142574512@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rfonu$2u0_016@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-40.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 42 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 10:22:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 937131533 207.212.198.18 (Sun, 12 Sep 1999 03:18:53 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 03:18:53 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 08:37:18 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >The Seven and the Nine, unlike the Three, conferred invisibility. I don't I'm not sure that the Three didn't confer invisibility. Here's the evidence we have: 1. Galadriel (and maybe Elrond), wearing one of the Three, is visible. 2. Bilbo, Frodo, and Gollum, wearing the One, are invisible. 3. The Nazgul, wearing the Nine, are invisible. Note that everyone who becomes invisible is a mortal. The Rings affected mortals in strange ways that probably weren't intended by the Elves, like turning them into wraiths. It's quite possible that if the Three fell into mortal hands they'd confer invisibility. I should also mention that Bombadil (who is pretty clearly immortal, though we're not entirely sure why) remains visible while wearing the One. I would guess that Sauron remains visible also, since Gil-galad and Elrond were able to kill him. So in general, we see that the Rings make mortals invisible, but not immortals. We could speculate that the invisibility is a side effect of having a finite lifespan stretched out to the end of time. The Gwaith-i-Mirdain probably wouldn't think of this, because they were making the Rings for their own use and didn't expect mortals to get hold of them. >understand WHY they should do so. The Elves seem not to have been too >upset at the thought of consorting with spirits, but it does strike me as >being a bit necromantic. These Rings could also be used to make visible >things which were normally not visible -- but Tolkien only mentions this in >passing and he doesn't provide any examples. Other Rings, for one. Galadriel's Ring was normally invisible, and she observes that Frodo was able to see it because he had a Ring of Power, or maybe because he's seen the Eye of Sauron. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 08:49:08 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 40 Message-ID: <7rg802$rre$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rfonu$2u0_016@Org.xenite.org> <37db7b1d.142574512@news.pc-intouch.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.67 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 937141058 28526 12.79.23.67 (12 Sep 1999 12:57:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 1999 12:57:38 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote in message news:37db7b1d.142574512@news.pc-intouch.com... > I'm not sure that the Three didn't confer invisibility. > Here's the evidence we have: Don't leave out; "The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility." JRRT, Letters #131 > 3. The Nazgul, wearing the Nine, are invisible. Just a note, there is quite a bit of evidence that the Nazgul were not wearing their Rings in LotR. It is also stated that once they became the Nazgul they were invisible all the time... with or without wearing the Rings. > Note that everyone who becomes invisible is a mortal. True... though I would say more specifically >human< as the Dwarves were also 'mortal' by most definitions. > We could speculate that the invisibility is a side effect > of having a finite lifespan stretched out to the end of > time. The Gwaith-i-Mirdain probably wouldn't think of > this, because they were making the Rings for their own > use and didn't expect mortals to get hold of them. The invisibility effect was apparently added by Sauron rather than a side effect of things the Elves put in for their own purposes. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rgqr4$dk_016@Org.xenite.org> References: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rfonu$2u0_016@Org.xenite.org> <37db7b1d.142574512@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 31 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:19:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.91 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937160457 207.224.148.91 (Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:20:57 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:20:57 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37db7b1d.142574512@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 08:37:18 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>The Seven and the Nine, unlike the Three, conferred invisibility. I don't > >I'm not sure that the Three didn't confer invisibility. Here's the >evidence we have: Well, Tolkien said they didn't confer invisibility. [snip] >So in general, we see that the Rings make mortals invisible, but not >immortals. We could speculate that the invisibility is a side effect >of having a finite lifespan stretched out to the end of time. The >Gwaith-i-Mirdain probably wouldn't think of this, because they were >making the Rings for their own use and didn't expect mortals to get >hold of them. The Seven did not make Dwarves invisible, but they would have rendered an Elf or Man invisible. Presumably, an Elf of great strength of mind would be able to overcome the invisibility (since the Rings gave the ability to make visible invisible things -- it's a rather complex thought). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "DM" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:39:58 -0700 References: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rfonu$2u0_016@Org.xenite.org> <7rg6ug$pc0$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-ELN-Date: 12 Sep 1999 21:27:49 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Sun Sep 12 14:35:08 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: ip150.portland8.or.pub-ip.psi.net Message-ID: <7rh5sl$k5f$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail I read it as only the One Ring confers true invisibility to mortals. Meaning that the cloths and everything (except unsheathed swords) became invisible. I feel (though I don't have anything to back it up) that Sauron the Great is simply to powerful for the Ring to hide. It is unfortunate that Tolkien didn't explicitly explain The Nine's power that he were given to Mortal Men. I remembr reading that they were given to mortal men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. I imagined that the nine mortal men where powerful men and warriors, and that the rings enhanced there prowess somewhat, but enhanced the fear of them (by both friend and enemy) much more. I remember reading that Thorin's sires told him that their ring " ...needed gold to breed gold." I've debated with myself if this meant the ring imparts a Midas quality to the wearer or what. I don't know if it meant to imply that the wearer of the ring could somehow locate large concentrations of precious ores and jewels. It seems the dwarves could have simply moved on and found other locations with gold and jewels if that were true.. Tolkien writing supports that Dwarves were very pre-occupied with treasure. Their dwarf ring didn't help much with the battle with Smaug, so I don't see it confering strength or extraordinary fighting abilities. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37dc0a52.179240327@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rfonu$2u0_016@Org.xenite.org> <37db7b1d.142574512@news.pc-intouch.com> <7rgqr4$dk_016@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-65.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 42 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:23:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 937167619 207.212.198.18 (Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:20:19 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:20:19 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wli.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:19:16 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >>I'm not sure that the Three didn't confer invisibility. Here's the >>evidence we have: > >Well, Tolkien said they didn't confer invisibility. Well, this is my pet theory, and I'll decide how the evidence relates to it, thank you very much. ;-) No, they didn't confer invisibility. Why? Because Sauron never got his hands on them, so he never gave them out to mortals, so they were always in the hands of the Elves. If the Seven and the Nine (or, more precisely, the Sixteen, since at this point in their history they weren't divided into distinct groups) conferred invisibility on the Elves, wouldn't the Elves have noticed that something was wrong? Wouldn't this have tipped Celebrimbor off to the fact that these Rings were doing things he didn't intend them to do? We still have no evidence that the Rings make Elves (or other immortal or semi-immortal beings) invisible. >>So in general, we see that the Rings make mortals invisible, but not >>immortals. We could speculate that the invisibility is a side effect >>of having a finite lifespan stretched out to the end of time. The >>Gwaith-i-Mirdain probably wouldn't think of this, because they were >>making the Rings for their own use and didn't expect mortals to get >>hold of them. > >The Seven did not make Dwarves invisible, but they would have rendered an That's because Dwarves are immune to most of the effects of the Rings, most importantly the time-stretching effect. The Rings didn't have any power over them except as objects of desire, like the Silmarils. >Elf or Man invisible. Presumably, an Elf of great strength of mind would >be able to overcome the invisibility (since the Rings gave the ability to >make visible invisible things -- it's a rather complex thought). ###### From: JP Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <06bf275e.bc671ad6@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Lines: 41 Bytes: 1365 X-Originating-Host: 171.64.194.32 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rfonu$2u0_016@Org.xenite.org> <37db7b1d.142574512@news.pc-intouch.com> <7rgqr4$dk_016@Org.xenite.org> <37dc0a52.179240327@news.pc-intouch.com> <7rhk9h$1pk_024@Org.xenite.org> X-Wren-Trace: ePrf9/bvqOKpsP3z8a704Mj6/v7x+LX++7jw/eausu2ksuyvuuu2oLiorA== Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:19:55 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.9 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 937196257 10.0.2.9 (Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:17:37 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:17:37 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail >>We still have no evidence that the Rings make Elves (or >other immortal >>or semi-immortal beings) invisible. > >Tolkien's statement that the Nine and the Seven conferred >invisibility is >evidence enough for me. The one ring certainly did: the fact that it didn't make Tom Bombadil invisible was unexpected and demanded an explanation. However I don't remember reading any reference that Sauron was invisible when he was "overthrown" and his finger cut. And if he was invisible how could Elendil and Isildur have seen him? Maybe Gil Galad could if he was an elf from Valinor. >>>>So in general, we see that the Rings make mortals >invisible, but not >>>>immortals. We could speculate that the invisibility is >a side effect >>>>of having a finite lifespan stretched out to the end of >time. The >>>>Gwaith-i-Mirdain probably wouldn't think of this, >because they were >>>>making the Rings for their own use and didn't expect >mortals to get >>>>hold of them. If that is true then it raises one question: Why was the one ring different? Sauron didn't intend it to be used by anyone else and if he was invisible that didn't seem to help him much. Joăo Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 23:14:01 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 30 Message-ID: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rfonu$2u0_016@Org.xenite.org> <37db7b1d.142574512@news.pc-intouch.com> <7rgqr4$dk_016@Org.xenite.org> <37dc0a52.179240327@news.pc-intouch.com> <7rhk9h$1pk_024@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.29.88 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 937192954 198 12.79.29.88 (13 Sep 1999 03:22:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Sep 1999 03:22:34 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7rhk9h$1pk_024@Org.xenite.org... > The others conferred invisibility BEFORE Sauron seized > them and gave them out. I don't think we really know. There are indications that he changed them when he got hold of them, the precise nature of the changes comes down to guesswork. > I'm not convinced they were immune to the time-stretching > effects. We have no real evidence one way or the other. This is an interesting question, but given that none of the few Dwarves we know to have had Rings were particularly long lived it seems reasonable to suppose that they were not affected in that way. There is also; "Years after Thror, now old, poor, and desparate, gave to his son Thrain the one great treasure he still possessed, the last of the Seven Rings..." RotK, Appendix A If the Rings DID perform 'time-stretching' on Dwarves then Thror should not have been 'old'. Further in the passage there are various other references to his age and infirmity. ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:28:17 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 31 Message-ID: <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUApCJXSw+crBE8ydWD4tCJ8nbc1E8CFQCFczpTk8OQl2OIa6DbOGKugN+/MQ== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!news-fra.pop.de!uunet!ams.uu.net!uunet!zur.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail I've been thinking about my original question. and I've come up with some theories about the Seven and Nine The Nine, it is said in the SIlmarillion, gave to men the ability to see things invisible to mortal men, and long life. I'm thinking that pehaps Celebrimbor and his colleagues may have created these rings to help Men better understand the elves, and to bring them closer to the elves in friendship, for in the First Age, Morgoth had done all he could to estrange elves and Men. Perhaps the ability of long lfe would give to men understanding of the weariness that the elves felt in the world after many centuries. But Sauron twisted these ablilities by making men see "too often...only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron". And of course the long life "became unendurable to them." Instead of granting understanding, it became a curse. The Seven may have been created to bless the dwarves with great wealth. The Noldor, who in Valinor were close to Aul=EB, may have understood the dwarves' love of gold and jewels, and so imbued the Seven with this power. It seems a lot like the blessing which Galadriel gave to Gimli as the Fellowship was departing from L=F3rien: >"I say to you, Gimli, son of Gl=F3in, that >your hands shall flow with gold, yet over >you gold shall have no dominion" This power of course Sauron corrupted as well, for while the dwarves became wealthy with the rings, they coveted their wealth, and sought revenge of any that would take it from them. This pleased Sauron, although the Seven didn't work exaclty as he had planned; he could not control them with the One Ring, because Aul=EB made them to resist the will of Morgoth. What other powers the Seven may have had is not known, for the dwarves "used their rings only for the getting of wealth". Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rhk9h$1pk_024@Org.xenite.org> References: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rfonu$2u0_016@Org.xenite.org> <37db7b1d.142574512@news.pc-intouch.com> <7rgqr4$dk_016@Org.xenite.org> <37dc0a52.179240327@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 69 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 01:33:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.138 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937186513 209.181.118.138 (Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:35:13 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:35:13 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37dc0a52.179240327@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:19:16 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>>I'm not sure that the Three didn't confer invisibility. Here's the >>>evidence we have: >> >>Well, Tolkien said they didn't confer invisibility. > >Well, this is my pet theory, and I'll decide how the evidence relates >to it, thank you very much. ;-) Well, ExCUUUUUSEEEE ME! :) >No, they didn't confer invisibility. Why? Because Sauron never got >his hands on them, so he never gave them out to mortals, so they were >always in the hands of the Elves. The others conferred invisibility BEFORE Sauron seized them and gave them out. He perverted them, made them evil, when he took them back to Mordor, but Tolkien's description of the Rings indicates the Nine and the Seven conferred invisibility from their creation. >If the Seven and the Nine (or, more precisely, the Sixteen, since at >this point in their history they weren't divided into distinct groups) >conferred invisibility on the Elves, wouldn't the Elves have noticed >that something was wrong? Wouldn't this have tipped Celebrimbor off >to the fact that these Rings were doing things he didn't intend them >to do? Why should they have noticed anything "wrong"? They were well educated in the matters of Arda, the natures of Men and Elves, and knew quite a bit about the Valar and other Ainur. So, why should they have been alarmed at the prospect of entering the wraith-world, if this might in fact be part of their own desires? And Celebrimbor was not the only Ring-maker among the Elves. He was just the maker of the Three. >We still have no evidence that the Rings make Elves (or other immortal >or semi-immortal beings) invisible. Tolkien's statement that the Nine and the Seven conferred invisibility is evidence enough for me. >>>So in general, we see that the Rings make mortals invisible, but not >>>immortals. We could speculate that the invisibility is a side effect >>>of having a finite lifespan stretched out to the end of time. The >>>Gwaith-i-Mirdain probably wouldn't think of this, because they were >>>making the Rings for their own use and didn't expect mortals to get >>>hold of them. >> >>The Seven did not make Dwarves invisible, but they would have rendered an > >That's because Dwarves are immune to most of the effects of the Rings, >most importantly the time-stretching effect. The Rings didn't have >any power over them except as objects of desire, like the Silmarils. I'm not convinced they were immune to the time-stretching effects. We have no real evidence one way or the other. But the Rings did enhance the Dwarves' ability to accumulate wealth. The Rings may also have enhanced the loyalty of Dwarves to their kings. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37dcbd88.2841587@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rfonu$2u0_016@Org.xenite.org> <37db7b1d.142574512@news.pc-intouch.com> <7rgqr4$dk_016@Org.xenite.org> <37dc0a52.179240327@news.pc-intouch.com> <7rhk9h$1pk_024@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-40.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 47 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:14:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 937213888 207.212.198.18 (Mon, 13 Sep 1999 02:11:28 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 02:11:28 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Mon, 13 Sep 1999 01:33:37 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >The others conferred invisibility BEFORE Sauron seized them and gave them Did they confer invisibility on the Elves? I must have missed that. Do you have a reference? >out. He perverted them, made them evil, when he took them back to Mordor, >but Tolkien's description of the Rings indicates the Nine and the Seven >conferred invisibility from their creation. > >Why should they have noticed anything "wrong"? They were well educated in >the matters of Arda, the natures of Men and Elves, and knew quite a bit >about the Valar and other Ainur. So, why should they have been alarmed at >the prospect of entering the wraith-world, if this might in fact be part of >their own desires? Because it was precisely what they were trying to avoid. They didn't want to fade out of the physical world. They didn't want to become wraiths. >And Celebrimbor was not the only Ring-maker among the Elves. He was just >the maker of the Three. I realize that. >>We still have no evidence that the Rings make Elves (or other immortal >>or semi-immortal beings) invisible. > >Tolkien's statement that the Nine and the Seven conferred invisibility is >evidence enough for me. Again, I don't know if he says they conferred invisibility on the Elves. >>That's because Dwarves are immune to most of the effects of the Rings, >>most importantly the time-stretching effect. The Rings didn't have >>any power over them except as objects of desire, like the Silmarils. > >I'm not convinced they were immune to the time-stretching effects. We have Thrór had one of the Seven for most of his life, and lived to the age of 248. Shortly before he died, he was described as being old and frail. If the time-stretching effect worked on him, he should have lived at least a few thousand years before becoming old and frail. ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: 13 Sep 1999 16:05:39 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7rj7cj$18en$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 937238739 41431 140.186.80.8 (13 Sep 1999 16:05:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Sep 1999 16:05:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail In article <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, David Sulger wrote: >I've been thinking about my original question. and I've come up with >some theories about the Seven and Nine > The Nine, it is said in the SIlmarillion, gave to men the ability to >see things invisible to mortal men, and long life. I'm thinking that >pehaps Celebrimbor and his colleagues may have created these rings to >help Men better understand the elves, and to bring them closer to the >elves in friendship... > The Seven may have been created to bless the dwarves with great >wealth.... The trouble with is that there's no clear indication that the Elves ever intended the Seven and the Nine for Dwarves and Men respectively. It was Sauron who used them to try to enslave/control/corrupt those races. -- -------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)------------------------- "The optative passive rocks!" --Jeffrey William McKeough ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 33 Date: 13 Sep 1999 16:56:27 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 937266991 207.212.198.18 (Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:56:31 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:56:31 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:27:35 -0400, James Kuyper Jr. wrote: >OK - so you're claiming that the Seven were not specifically designed >for the Dwarves, and therefore were presumably interchangeable with the >Nine? We know that the rings given to the Dwarves did not do Sauron Yes, they were. The Seven and the Nine weren't separated until the War of the Elves and Sauron, during which (it appears) Celebrimbor smuggled the Seven and the Three out of Eregion. (Why did he pick those seven? I don't know. Maybe he was planning to hide the rest of them later, and didn't have time.) So when Sauron plundered Ost-in-Edhil, he captured the Nine. Later, he tortured Celebrimbor and found out where the Seven were, and captured them too, but he kept them separate. >anywhere near as much good as the ones given to Men. Also, we know that >Sauron recovered several of the Seven. Therefore, if they were >interchangeable, why didn't he give the recovered rings to Men, to make >even more Nazgul? It appears his plan was to make Dwarf-Nazgul. He gave the Seven to the Dwarves, and waited for them to start fading...and waited...and waited...and then the Dwarves to whom he'd given them started dying of natural old age. At that point he probably realized that he'd screwed up, but the Dwarves had secretly passed the Rings on to others, so he couldn't just take them back. He had to track them down. By the late Third Age, he had recaptured three of them, and had discovered that the rest had been destroyed by various means, such as dragon-fire. Maybe, if he'd had time, he would have given them out to Men and created three more Nazgul. ###### From: Piotr Auksztulewicz Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: 13 Sep 1999 18:44:52 +0200 Organization: Politechnika Slaska, Gliwice Lines: 32 Message-ID: <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981225 ("Volcane") (UNIX) (HP-UX/B.10.20 (9000/800)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!news.man.lodz.pl!news.man.poznan.pl!polsl.gliwice.pl!not-for-mail David Sulger wrote: > The Nine, it is said in the SIlmarillion, gave to men the ability to > see things invisible to mortal men, and long life. I'm thinking that > pehaps Celebrimbor and his colleagues may have created these rings to > help Men better understand the elves, and to bring them closer to the > elves in friendship, for in the First Age, Morgoth had done all he could > to estrange elves and Men. Perhaps the ability of long lfe would give > to men understanding of the weariness that the elves felt in the world > after many centuries. But Sauron twisted these ablilities by making men > see "too often...only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron". And of > course the long life "became unendurable to them." Instead of granting > understanding, it became a curse. > The Seven may have been created to bless the dwarves with great > wealth. The Noldor, who in Valinor were close to Aul?, may have > understood the dwarves' love of gold and jewels, and so imbued the Seven > with this power. It seems a lot like the blessing which Galadriel gave > to Gimli as the Fellowship was departing from L?rien: You assume that the Nine and the Seven were made by the Elves *specifically* for Men and Dwarves - but it is not so. They made them for themselves. It is Sauron who dealt them out after seizing them, in purpose to enslave their keepers. It may well be that having seized them he had tweaked their powers to his purpose - but I would rather say that they were made such as they were by the Elves of Region, not knowing what their effect on Men and Dwarves would be - because they never intended to give them away, and never tried them on mortals - and they were misled by the false counsels of Annatar, who weaved cunnigly his necromant lore into the secrets he passed to elven smiths. -- Piotr Auksztulewicz piotras@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl Silesian Tech. Univ. Computer Center, 16 Akademicka St., Gliwice, Poland ###### Message-ID: <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.53 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937264786 206.161.15.53 (Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:19:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:19:46 EDT Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:27:35 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Piotr Auksztulewicz wrote: ... > You assume that the Nine and the Seven were made by the Elves *specifically* > for Men and Dwarves - but it is not so. They made them for themselves. > It is Sauron who dealt them out after seizing them, in purpose to enslave > their keepers. It may well be that having seized them he had tweaked their > powers to his purpose - but I would rather say that they were made such > as they were by the Elves of Region, not knowing what their effect on Men > and Dwarves would be - because they never intended to give them away, and > never tried them on mortals - and they were misled by the false counsels > of Annatar, who weaved cunnigly his necromant lore into the secrets > he passed to elven smiths. OK - so you're claiming that the Seven were not specifically designed for the Dwarves, and therefore were presumably interchangeable with the Nine? We know that the rings given to the Dwarves did not do Sauron anywhere near as much good as the ones given to Men. Also, we know that Sauron recovered several of the Seven. Therefore, if they were interchangeable, why didn't he give the recovered rings to Men, to make even more Nazgul? ###### Message-ID: <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.8.153.45 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937275251 209.8.153.45 (Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:14:11 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:14:11 EDT Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:22:02 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail John Kendrick the Magnificent wrote: > > who says the are interchangeable? jsut becasue they werent specificaly made > for dwarves and men doesnt mean they might not have been different. So > suppose the 7 and nine are different types, and Saruon gives on kind to the > dwarves and one to the Men. what if the dwarven ringw werent specificaly > made for dwarves but still wouldnt make ringwraiths. Im prty sure Sauron > new quite a bit about magic rings, what have made the "masterpiece" of a > sort. OK - I can, with difficulty, imagine that the Seven just happened to be more appropriate for Dwarves, and the Nine for Men, without having been designed that way. I don't see any good reason for believing that, however. _Appendix A_, _Durin's Folk_: "[Thror's ring] was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was forged; and they say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dum, Durin III, by the Elvensmiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he had aided in the forging of all the Seven." This belief of Durin's folk may have been faulty. However, the simple fact that they had such a belief is evidence in favor of the idea that the Seven were intended by the Elves (as well as in secret by Sauron) for the use of the Dwarves from the beginning. Now that doesn't mean they had to be specialized for the Dwarves, but I certainly would have done some such optimization if they'd been mine to design. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:16:18 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 25 Message-ID: <7rkimm$95c$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.64.33.23 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 937283094 9388 12.64.33.23 (14 Sep 1999 04:24:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 1999 04:24:54 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message news:37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net... > Also, we know that Sauron recovered several of the Seven. > Therefore, if they were interchangeable, why didn't he > give the recovered rings to Men, to make even more > Nazgul? He no longer had the One. Without it he would not be able to control the new wearers of these Rings. There is some evidence to suggest that Sauron collected the Nine Rings so he could absolutely control the Nazgul after he lost the One. The Nazgul were each enslaved to their particular Ring, so Sauron could control them through that Ring directly (as Frodo indicated he could command Gollum) or through the One - which controlled all the Rings. If Sauron handed out the Dwarven Rings to humans after he lost the One it seems possible that they would not be under his command - being more like Gollum, corrupted by the Ring and eventually fading, but still having their own 'self will'. In essence... he'd be creating minor RIVALS. ###### From: Larry Richards Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:17:33 -0400 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 23 Message-ID: <37DDCC5D.C3FF54BC@virginia.edu> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-31-19.itc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed.nyu.edu!news.globix.net!uunet!nyc.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail If the 7, the 3, and the 9 were simply generic rings to be handed out at random, and not intended specifically for dwarves, elves and men, then how can we explain the fact that before Sauron had captured any rings at all, he uttered these words in the chamber of Samath Naur, "For on the day that Sauron first put on the One, Celebrimbor, maker of the Three was aware of him and from afar he heard him speak these words and so his evil purposes were revealed:" Three Rings for the Elven kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them. In the Land of Mordor where the shadows lie. -- LGR A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, partisan! ###### From: "John Kendrick the Magnificent" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 01:40:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.105.203 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.tx.home.com 937273209 24.0.105.203 (Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:40:09 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:40:09 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail who says the are interchangeable? jsut becasue they werent specificaly made for dwarves and men doesnt mean they might not have been different. So suppose the 7 and nine are different types, and Saruon gives on kind to the dwarves and one to the Men. what if the dwarven ringw werent specificaly made for dwarves but still wouldnt make ringwraiths. Im prty sure Sauron new quite a bit about magic rings, what have made the "masterpiece" of a sort. James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message news:37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net... > Piotr Auksztulewicz wrote: > ... > > You assume that the Nine and the Seven were made by the Elves *specifically* > > for Men and Dwarves - but it is not so. They made them for themselves. > > It is Sauron who dealt them out after seizing them, in purpose to enslave > > their keepers. It may well be that having seized them he had tweaked their > > powers to his purpose - but I would rather say that they were made such > > as they were by the Elves of Region, not knowing what their effect on Men > > and Dwarves would be - because they never intended to give them away, and > > never tried them on mortals - and they were misled by the false counsels > > of Annatar, who weaved cunnigly his necromant lore into the secrets > > he passed to elven smiths. > > OK - so you're claiming that the Seven were not specifically designed > for the Dwarves, and therefore were presumably interchangeable with the > Nine? We know that the rings given to the Dwarves did not do Sauron > anywhere near as much good as the ones given to Men. Also, we know that > Sauron recovered several of the Seven. Therefore, if they were > interchangeable, why didn't he give the recovered rings to Men, to make > even more Nazgul? ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 02:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 16 Message-ID: <23310-37DDF235-60@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <37dde3fd.78234163@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQT4h6BHXcyBoIG33sz8WZo4TbcbQIUPqtrTOi/fsiuOE/VYRQso3sN+SQ= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail So it would seem that there is some disagreement to whether the Seven and Nine were truly intended for dwarves and men from the beginning. It's possible that Sauron had always intended to divide them so, since he provided the Noldor with much of the knowledge needed to make the rings. And perhaps the Noldor believed all along that they were making the rings for themselves. The ancient poem of the rings themselves provides know clue, since it may have been "composed" after Sauron took the rings. Indeed the line "One for the Dark Lord on his drak throne" suggests that the poem came after Sauron took control of the rings, since I can't imagine that the Noldor would let Sauron take advantage of them like that if the knew even a hint of his plans. So what we have is two separate plans for the rings as a whole: the elves are making them for their own use, to prolong and preserve their works, while Sauron is futhering his plan to take Morgoth's place as the sole ruler of ME. ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: 14 Sep 1999 03:12:09 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7rkee9$1oun$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 937278729 58327 140.186.80.8 (14 Sep 1999 03:12:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 1999 03:12:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail In article <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net>, James Kuyper Jr. wrote: >_Appendix A_, _Durin's Folk_: "[Thror's ring] was believed by >the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was >forged; and they say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dum, Durin >III, by the Elvensmiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless >his evil power was on it, since he had aided in the forging of all the >Seven." > >This belief of Durin's folk may have been faulty. However, the simple >fact that they had such a belief is evidence in favor of the idea that >the Seven were intended by the Elves (as well as in secret by Sauron) >for the use of the Dwarves from the beginning. Or at least that the Dwarves thought so. Or wanted to think so. -- -------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)------------------------- "Life is easy to chronicle, but bewildering to practice." --E. M. Forster, _A Room With a View_ ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37dde3fd.78234163@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> <37DDCC5D.C3FF54BC@virginia.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-44.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 24 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:03:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 937288787 207.212.198.18 (Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:59:47 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:59:47 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:17:33 -0400, Larry Richards wrote: >If the 7, the 3, and the 9 were simply generic rings to be handed out at >random, and not intended specifically for dwarves, elves and men, then >how can we explain the fact that before Sauron had captured any rings at >all, he uttered these words in the chamber of Samath Naur, "For on the >day that Sauron first put on the One, Celebrimbor, maker of the Three >was aware of him and from afar he heard him speak these words and so his >evil purposes were revealed:" The Seven and the Nine, as a group, were distinct from the Three. The Three were made secretly without Sauron's direct influence, so they were 'purer'. As for Sauron's knowledge of the Seven and the Nine, Celebrimbor might have been wearing a Ring when Sauron put on the One. In that case, Sauron would be able to read his mind to some extent and see that the Seven were already hidden, though he didn't immediately see where they were. (This might also be how he found out that the Three existed at all.) So he made his plans on that knowledge: he would give the Nine Rings in Eregion to Men, and the Seven that had been dispersed to the Dwarves. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rksvu$3lk_016@Org.xenite.org> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> <7rkee9$1oun$1@newsie2.cent.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 32 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:20:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.217 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937293738 207.224.149.217 (Tue, 14 Sep 1999 02:22:18 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 02:22:18 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7rkee9$1oun$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote: >In article <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net>, >James Kuyper Jr. wrote: > >>_Appendix A_, _Durin's Folk_: "[Thror's ring] was believed by >>the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was >>forged; and they say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dum, Durin >>III, by the Elvensmiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless >>his evil power was on it, since he had aided in the forging of all the >>Seven." >> >>This belief of Durin's folk may have been faulty. However, the simple >>fact that they had such a belief is evidence in favor of the idea that >>the Seven were intended by the Elves (as well as in secret by Sauron) >>for the use of the Dwarves from the beginning. > >Or at least that the Dwarves thought so. Or wanted to think so. All that Tolkien wrote concerning the Rings' powers, their purposes, and the Elves' secrecy surrounding them shows the Dwarves were never intended recipients. The Rings as originally constructed would not have benefitted the Dwarves. And the Dwarves' own secrecry concerning the Rings would only fuel their imaginations. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rkt45$3lk_018@Org.xenite.org> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> <37DDCC5D.C3FF54BC@virginia.edu> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 26 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:22:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.217 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937293872 207.224.149.217 (Tue, 14 Sep 1999 02:24:32 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 02:24:32 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37DDCC5D.C3FF54BC@virginia.edu>, Larry Richards wrote: >If the 7, the 3, and the 9 were simply generic rings to be handed out at >random, and not intended specifically for dwarves, elves and men, then >how can we explain the fact that before Sauron had captured any rings at >all, he uttered these words in the chamber of Samath Naur, "For on the >day that Sauron first put on the One, Celebrimbor, maker of the Three >was aware of him and from afar he heard him speak these words and so his >evil purposes were revealed:" Sauron did not speak the entire Ring-rhyme. He only said (in the Black Speech) "One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them, one Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them." The rhyme was composed later on (presumably by an Elf) after the disposition of the Seven and the Nine had been learned, perhaps as late as the War of the Last Alliance. That appears to be when the Elves started talking about the Rings openly. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rkuqc$3lk_034@Org.xenite.org> References: <37dde3fd.78234163@news.pc-intouch.com> <23310-37DDF235-60@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 37 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:51:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.217 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937295606 207.224.149.217 (Tue, 14 Sep 1999 02:53:26 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 02:53:26 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <23310-37DDF235-60@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: >So it would seem that there is some disagreement to whether the Seven >and Nine were truly intended for dwarves and men from the beginning. The existence of disagreement does not extend credibility, let alone equal credibility, to either side of the disagreement. >It's possible that Sauron had always intended to divide them so, since >he provided the Noldor with much of the knowledge needed to make the >rings. And perhaps the Noldor believed all along that they were making >the rings for themselves. The ancient poem of the rings themselves >provides know clue, since it may have been "composed" after Sauron took >the rings. Indeed the line "One for the Dark Lord on his drak throne" >suggests that the poem came after Sauron took control of the rings, >since I can't imagine that the Noldor would let Sauron take advantage of >them like that if the knew even a hint of his plans. So what we have >is two separate plans for the rings as a whole: the elves are making >them for their own use, to prolong and preserve their works, while >Sauron is futhering his plan to take Morgoth's place as the sole ruler >of ME. That's a fair assessment, close to the way Tolkien describes it. Whether Sauron could have planned to give Rings out to Dwarves or Men is debatable. The Rings were useful only to the Elves until Sauron perverted the Sevan and the Nine. Their chief purpose was to hold back time. Tolkien says this was an Elvish motive. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> <37DDCC5D.C3FF54BC@virginia.edu> <7rkt45$3lk_018@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 9 Date: 14 Sep 1999 15:55:06 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 937349709 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:55:09 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:55:09 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:22:45 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >Sauron did not speak the entire Ring-rhyme. He only said (in the Black >Speech) "One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them, one Ring to >bring them all and in the darkness bind them." I've never thought of this before, but where did Celebrimbor learn the Black Speech? ###### From: weatherwax@btinternet.com (Mike Dickinson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 17:47:13 GMT Organization: Mike's Place Lines: 13 Message-ID: <37de83ed.3129941@news.btinternet.com> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> <37DDCC5D.C3FF54BC@virginia.edu> <7rkt45$3lk_018@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: weatherwax@btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Host: host5-171-240-26.btinternet.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!btnet-feed2!btnet-peer!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:22:45 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >Sauron did not speak the entire Ring-rhyme. He only said (in the Black >Speech) "One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them, one Ring to >bring them all and in the darkness bind them." Yes. I couldn't imagine Mister Sauron calling himself the Dark Lord, somehow - however true it might be and however he might even percieve himself. ;) -- Mike Dickinson ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> <37DDCC5D.C3FF54BC@virginia.edu> <7rkt45$3lk_018@Org.xenite.org> <7rmlsp$dp7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 18 Date: 14 Sep 1999 18:27:20 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 937358855 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:27:35 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:27:35 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:22:59 -0400, Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >Mark Wells wrote in message >news:slrn7ttjn3.fa9.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com... > >> I've never thought of this before, but where did >> Celebrimbor learn the Black Speech? > >As I recall / understand the passage he did not understand >the verbal language so much as 'perceive the thought' of >Sauron. Thus, Celebrimbor did not know the Black Speech, >but he still understood what was going on. After Gandalf recites the Ring-inscription in the original Black Speech at the Council of Elrond, he says something like "Those were the words that the smiths of Eregion heard, and knew they had been betrayed." It sure sounds like Celebrimbor knew he had been betrayed based on what he heard. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:22:59 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 12 Message-ID: <7rmlsp$dp7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> <37DDCC5D.C3FF54BC@virginia.edu> <7rkt45$3lk_018@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.64.32.172 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 937351897 14119 12.64.32.172 (14 Sep 1999 23:31:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 1999 23:31:37 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.abs.net!attmtf!attbtf!ip.att.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote in message news:slrn7ttjn3.fa9.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com... > I've never thought of this before, but where did > Celebrimbor learn the Black Speech? As I recall / understand the passage he did not understand the verbal language so much as 'perceive the thought' of Sauron. Thus, Celebrimbor did not know the Black Speech, but he still understood what was going on. ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 21 Message-ID: <25659-37DF2B6E-44@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <7rkuqc$3lk_034@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhRaJfenhN2NjPpqhlJK2jMmQXtbWgIVAI8hoh85o5zw4BgfFYnj6wQX2NHX Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.tli.de!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.fast.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >Whether Sauron could have planned to >give Rings out to Dwarves or Men is >debatable. There's no solid evidence (that I know of anyway) to support either conclusion. I would say that Sauron probably did plan this from the start, at least, that is my theory in the subject. His plan with the Rings of Power was to subjugate the Free Peoples of ME, after all. The One Ring was central to this plan, for with it he would know and be able to control the thoughts of all those who wore the other rings. So it makes sense for him to plan on dividing the Rings up. I mean after all, if the Rings only stayed with the Elves, he wouldn't be able to rule Men and Dwarves directly with the One. Of course this plan failed: the Elves refused to wear the rings, and he couldn't control the Dwarves (this could have been a mistake he made, or maybe, if the elves had intended to keep the rings, the enchantments they placed on the Seven ended up spoiling Sauron's intent). The only race he could dominate was Men. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rnetq$27s_018@Org.xenite.org> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> <37DDCC5D.C3FF54BC@virginia.edu> <7rkt45$3lk_018@Org.xenite.org> <7rmlsp$dp7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 37 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 06:38:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.142 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937377639 209.181.118.142 (Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:40:39 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:40:39 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , mark@pc-intouch.com wrote: >On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:22:59 -0400, Conrad Dunkerson > wrote: >>Mark Wells wrote in message >>news:slrn7ttjn3.fa9.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com... >> >>> I've never thought of this before, but where did >>> Celebrimbor learn the Black Speech? >> >>As I recall / understand the passage he did not understand >>the verbal language so much as 'perceive the thought' of >>Sauron. Thus, Celebrimbor did not know the Black Speech, >>but he still understood what was going on. > >After Gandalf recites the Ring-inscription in the original Black Speech at >the Council of Elrond, he says something like "Those were the words that the >smiths of Eregion heard, and knew they had been betrayed." It sure sounds >like Celebrimbor knew he had been betrayed based on what he heard. Get out the hammer, get out the chisel. I'm going to agree with Conrad on this one. It's doubtful the Elves even knew the Black Speech existed when Sauron spoke those words, but they had the ability to understand the thoughts of others, and doubtless the Rings enhanced their ability to understand Sauron's thoughts, since it was his intent to impose his will on their wearers anyway. The Elves could have eventually learned the Black Speech later and figured out exactly what the words meant. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> <37DDCC5D.C3FF54BC@virginia.edu> <7rkt45$3lk_018@Org.xenite.org> <7rmlsp$dp7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7rnetq$27s_018@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 18 Date: 15 Sep 1999 11:29:05 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 937420147 207.212.198.18 (Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:29:07 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:29:07 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 06:38:50 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >Get out the hammer, get out the chisel. I'm going to agree with Conrad on >this one. > >It's doubtful the Elves even knew the Black Speech existed when Sauron >spoke those words, but they had the ability to understand the thoughts of >others, and doubtless the Rings enhanced their ability to understand >Sauron's thoughts, since it was his intent to impose his will on their >wearers anyway. > >The Elves could have eventually learned the Black Speech later and figured >out exactly what the words meant. OK, so the Elves heard the words, and knew they had been betrayed, but the words didn't have anything to do with their knowledge that they had been betrayed. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I suppose it's plausible. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:28:20 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 33 Message-ID: <7rp3ht$df1$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> <37DDCC5D.C3FF54BC@virginia.edu> <7rkt45$3lk_018@Org.xenite.org> <7rmlsp$dp7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7rnetq$27s_018@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.64.33.213 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 937431421 13793 12.64.33.213 (15 Sep 1999 21:37:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 1999 21:37:01 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote in message news:slrn7tvogi.mck.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com... > OK, so the Elves heard the words, and knew they had been > betrayed, but the words didn't have anything to do with > their knowledge that they had been betrayed. It doesn't > make a whole lot of sense, but I suppose it's plausible. Why don't we do something novel and look at the actual texts. I'd have brought them in sooner, but I'm in California and all my books are at home in New Jersey. However, a bit of searching on Deja turned up; "SA c. 1600: Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dur. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron." Appendix B, The Tale of Years "But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings." Silm, Of the Rings of Power My thanks to David Salo for posting all this long ago. In both cases the Elves are said to have perceived Sauron's intent rather than having understood his words. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 14:18:34 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 9 Message-ID: <7s0lib$8qu$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <7rhqlq$66$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <22201-37DC7D61-117@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rj9m4$si5$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <37DD8867.7EE310E2@wizard.net> <37DDB14A.44F857B9@wizard.net> <37DDCC5D.C3FF54BC@virginia.edu> <7rkt45$3lk_018@Org.xenite.org> <7rmlsp$dp7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7rnetq$27s_018@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.64.82 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 937679243 9054 12.75.64.82 (18 Sep 1999 18:27:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1999 18:27:23 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7rnetq$27s_018@Org.xenite.org... > Get out the hammer, get out the chisel. I'm going to > agree with Conrad on this one. Who are you, and what have you done to Michael Martinez? :) ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Purpose of the Seven and the Nine Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 17:02:46 -0400 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <37E54F1A.FE2D925F@erols.com> References: <19874-37DB3B63-137@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rfonu$2u0_016@Org.xenite.org> <37db7b1d.142574512@news.pc-intouch.com> <7rgqr4$dk_016@Org.xenite.org> <37dc0a52.179240327@news.pc-intouch.com> <7rhk9h$1pk_024@Org.xenite.org> <06bf275e.bc671ad6@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: +zS6bY1RxulUj1NhIkcfPhvBR6vucpxIwZ97P/UNgHg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1999 22:09:19 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail JP wrote: > Maybe Gil Galad could if he was an elf from Valinor. He had at least one parent from Valinor, but I think he was born in ME. > Joăo Paulo Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna the Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way!