From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: The Ainur and the elements
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 01:26:14 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <19874-37DB3976-134@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable
X-WebTV-Signature: 1
	ETAtAhUAkpqf8dKueR4tEZl6QeUGDfrucM8CFGyPLc9tzRO/b2NZbTlVp1lyMvVN 
Content-Disposition: Inline
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!nyc.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail

It seems that the four of the most powerful of the Ainur, Manw=EB, Ulmo,
Aul=EB, and Melkor, each have affinities for the four elements, fire,
water, earth, and air.  Manw=EB's description in the Valaquenta
certainly would seem to indicate a strong connection to Air; he is
master of the winds, and of birds.  Ulmo is certainly linked with water,
he is in  fact called the Lord of Waters, and his dominions is over all
the seas and rivers of the world.  Aul=EB is connected with earth.  He
shaped all the lands of Arda, in the beginning of the world, and he is
the master of "all the substances of which Arda is made."   In some
ways, that leaves fire to Melkor, though this doesn't seem to be
implicitly stated, but fire seems to be connected to him a lot.
(Although making this case really isn't the easiest, and is based on a
lot circumstantial evidence in the Silmarillion.  However, if anyone
wants to back me up in this, go right ahead.  I know there will be a
number of people in this newsgroup who disagree with me on this anyway.)
Melkor is more often connected with darkness than with fire, but maybe
this could be a result of his corruption and evil.  Is it a reasonable
assumption that Il=FAvatar created the four most powerful Ainur in
connection with the four basic elements?  

######

From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Ainur and the elements
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 08:20:03 -0400
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <7rg69h$nto$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
References: <19874-37DB3976-134@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@planet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.67
X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 937139313 24504 12.79.23.67 (12 Sep 1999 12:28:33 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 1999 12:28:33 GMT
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail

David Sulger <orius@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:19874-37DB3976-134@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

> It seems that the four of the most powerful of the Ainur,
> Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, and Melkor, each have affinities for
> the four elements, fire, water, earth, and air.

<snip explanation of various element references for Manwe
and Ulmo which I agree with>

> Aulë is connected with earth.  He shaped all the lands of
> Arda, in the beginning of the world, and he is the master
> of "all the substances of which Arda is made."

I hadn't viewed Aule as being as elementally focused as the
other two before.  You have a point about the substances of
Arda thing, but he also used fire in his crafting.  Still,
if we want to assign an 'element' to him Earth seems to fit
the best.

> In some ways, that leaves fire to Melkor, though this
> doesn't seem to be implicitly stated, but fire seems to
> be connected to him a lot.

Melkor also shaped the landscape of Arda... the final form
being a stalemate between Melkor and Aule.  The Misty and
Iron Mountains and Mordor were Melkor's work.  Also there
is the bit about 'all of Middle Earth is Morgoth's Ring'...
he put his power into all the substances of Arda, turning
it into "Arda Marred" and introducing a 'Morgoth Element'
into all things (some in greater proportion than others...
Orcs and gold having a higher concentration than Elves and
water).

In any case Melkor is said to have had a part in the
'affinities' of ALL the Valar.  He was the greatest of them
originally and had some degree of power over all things...
the bit about his having created rain by taking Ulmo's
water and chaotically mixing it with Manwe's air comes to
mind.  I'd argue that Morgoth often used fire because it is
an effective means of destruction... but he was not >more<
identified with that element than others.  He doesn't seem
to have done much with air and water beyond the rain, but
presumably he considered the shape of the land more
important to his goals.


JRRT also does this elsewhere... associate several things
with some of the four 'base elements', but stop short of
having a complete set of four;

Elven Rings: Narya - Fire, Nenya - Water, Vilya - Air

Silmarils: One in the sky, One in the ocean, One in a fiery
fissure in the earth (that last might be two elements)

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Ainur and the elements
Date: 12 Sep 1999 17:47:50 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
Lines: 38
Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch
Message-ID: <6uogf8xhax.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>
References: <19874-37DB3976-134@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
        <7rg69h$nto$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34

"Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> David Sulger <orius@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:19874-37DB3976-134@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
>
> > It seems that the four of the most powerful of the Ainur,
> > Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, and Melkor, each have affinities for
> > the four elements, fire, water, earth, and air.
>
> JRRT also does this elsewhere... associate several things
> with some of the four 'base elements', but stop short of
> having a complete set of four;
>
> Elven Rings: Narya - Fire, Nenya - Water, Vilya - Air
>
> Silmarils: One in the sky, One in the ocean, One in a fiery
> fissure in the earth (that last might be two elements)

Not to forget the types of elves:

Vanyar - air, Noldor - earth, Teleri - water.

Actually reading Silmarillion I got the impression, that he (like
myself) finds fire to be the odd one out in the traditional list.

Air - gas matter, water - liquid matter, earth - solid matter
vs. fire - no matter, rather energy.


And just some idle speculation:

Air has wind, water has flow, earth has - fire ?


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it

######

From: "Kristoffer 'Ferret' Holmén" <n92kriho@midgard.liu.se>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Ainur and the elements
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:04:35 +0200
Organization: Linköping University, Sweden
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <7rlkam$7r7$1@newsy.ifm.liu.se>
References: <19874-37DB3976-134@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: boromir.midgard.liu.se
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newnews.hk-r.se!news.ifm.liu.se!not-for-mail

I've always thought that Tolkien only intended three basic elements. The
silmarils goes one to each element - air, earth and water. Fire I think is
something else.  Gandalf for example speaks of the secret fire wich I
believe is the fire that burns in people's hearts. Generally maybe fire is a
symbol chaos and destruction rather than a basic element. But that's just my
opinion.
/Kristoffer


David Sulger wrote in message
<19874-37DB3976-134@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
It seems that the four of the most powerful of the Ainur, Manwë, Ulmo,
Aulë, and Melkor, each have affinities for the four elements, fire,
water, earth, and air.  Manwë's description in the Valaquenta
certainly would seem to indicate a strong connection to Air; he is
master of the winds, and of birds.  Ulmo is certainly linked with water,
he is in  fact called the Lord of Waters, and his dominions is over all
the seas and rivers of the world.  Aulë is connected with earth.  He
shaped all the lands of Arda, in the beginning of the world, and he is
the master of "all the substances of which Arda is made."   In some
ways, that leaves fire to Melkor, though this doesn't seem to be
implicitly stated, but fire seems to be connected to him a lot.
(Although making this case really isn't the easiest, and is based on a
lot circumstantial evidence in the Silmarillion.  However, if anyone
wants to back me up in this, go right ahead.  I know there will be a
number of people in this newsgroup who disagree with me on this anyway.)
Melkor is more often connected with darkness than with fire, but maybe
this could be a result of his corruption and evil.  Is it a reasonable
assumption that Ilúvatar created the four most powerful Ainur in
connection with the four basic elements?

######

From: Piotr Auksztulewicz <piotras@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl>
Subject: Re: The Ainur and the elements
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Date: 14 Sep 1999 18:20:53 +0200
Organization: Politechnika Slaska, Gliwice
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <7rlsl5$gn2$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl>
References: <19874-37DB3976-134@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net>        <7rg69h$nto$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6uogf8xhax.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>
NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981225 ("Volcane") (UNIX) (HP-UX/B.10.20 (9000/800))
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.man.poznan.pl!news.task.gda.pl!polsl.gliwice.pl!not-for-mail

Neil Franklin <neil> wrote:
> Actually reading Silmarillion I got the impression, that he (like
> myself) finds fire to be the odd one out in the traditional list.

> Air - gas matter, water - liquid matter, earth - solid matter
> vs. fire - no matter, rather energy.

But on the other hand, plasma is sometimes considered 'a fourth
state of matter'. Fire is low-temperature plasma.

This only proves that man's way of thinking is somewhat fixed,
same ideas keep appearing here and there all the time.

-- 
Piotr Auksztulewicz                        piotras@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl
Silesian Tech. Univ. Computer Center, 16 Akademicka St., Gliwice, Poland

######

From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Subject: Re: The Ainur and the elements
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Date: 14 Sep 1999 21:59:54 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
Lines: 36
Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch
Message-ID: <6upuzlmfgl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>
References: <19874-37DB3976-134@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
	<7rg69h$nto$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
	<6uogf8xhax.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>
	<7rlsl5$gn2$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl>
X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34

Piotr Auksztulewicz <piotras@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> writes:
> 
> Neil Franklin <neil> wrote:
> > Actually reading Silmarillion I got the impression, that he (like
> > myself) finds fire to be the odd one out in the traditional list.
> 
> > Air - gas matter, water - liquid matter, earth - solid matter
> > vs. fire - no matter, rather energy.
> 
> But on the other hand, plasma is sometimes considered 'a fourth
> state of matter'.

Plasma :-)

Today, yes. But the original inventor of air/water/earth/fire (a few
1000 years ago) would have not known plasma (where to get the
temperature needed from?).

And Tolkien deliberately seems to have avoided all modern science and
technology.


> Fire is low-temperature plasma.

Huh?

Plasma is separated electrons and nuclei.

Fire is hot gas emitted from chemical reactions (which imply tranfer
of electrons from one nucleus to annother).


-- 
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Ainur and the elements
References: <19874-37DB3976-134@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rlkam$7r7$1@newsy.ifm.liu.se>
Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com
Message-ID: <slrn7ttkcj.fa9.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX)
X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com
Lines: 15
Date: 14 Sep 1999 16:06:33 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18
X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net
X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 937350399 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:06:39 PDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:06:39 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail

On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:04:35 +0200, Kristoffer 'Ferret' Holmén 
<n92kriho@midgard.liu.se> wrote:
>I've always thought that Tolkien only intended three basic elements. The
>silmarils goes one to each element - air, earth and water. Fire I think is
>something else.  Gandalf for example speaks of the secret fire wich I
>believe is the fire that burns in people's hearts. Generally maybe fire is a
>symbol chaos and destruction rather than a basic element. But that's just my
>opinion.

I'm inclined to identify the three elements as air, water, and earth/fire
(with earth and fire being considered as different manifestations of the same 
element).  Hence Manwe, Ulmo, and Aule; the Silmarils; Vilya, Nenya, and
Narya (in this case maybe earth/fire only appears as fire); Vanyar, Teleri,
and Noldor.  I could probably find more examples along these lines.

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Ainur and the elements
References: <19874-37DB3976-134@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7rg69h$nto$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6uogf8xhax.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7rlsl5$gn2$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <6upuzlmfgl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>
Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com
Message-ID: <slrn7ttktl.fa9.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com>
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX)
X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com
Lines: 14
Date: 14 Sep 1999 16:15:42 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18
X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net
X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 937350946 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:15:46 PDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:15:46 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail

On 14 Sep 1999 21:59:54 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote:

>> Fire is low-temperature plasma.
>
>Huh?
>
>Plasma is separated electrons and nuclei.
>
>Fire is hot gas emitted from chemical reactions (which imply tranfer
>of electrons from one nucleus to annother).

Fire typically produces enough heat to ionize the air around it, so what you
end up with is a low-temperature plasma.

######

From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Ainur and the elements
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:41:49 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <25658-37DF319D-91@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <6uogf8xhax.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
X-WebTV-Signature: 1
	ETAtAhUAsTg9w+qk0xwr+cWVLUf6k4Mfm6QCFHG2l6IAzsanhilUnd0/66L88DOv 
Content-Disposition: Inline
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.tli.de!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.fast.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail

Neil Franklin wrote:

>Conrad Dunkerson writes: 

>>JRRT <snip> associate(s) several
>>things with some of the four 'base
>>elements', but stop short of having a
>>complete set of four; 
>>Elven Rings: Narya - Fire, Nenya -
>>Water, Vilya - Air
>>Silmarils: One in the sky, One in the
>>ocean, One in a fiery
>>fissure in the earth (that last might be
>>two elements) 

>Not to forget the types of elves:
>Vanyar - air, Noldor - earth,
>Teleri - water. 

Yes I've noticed this incompleteness myself.  In fact, I almost metioned
the Silmarils in my original post, but then decided to leave them out,
as mentioning them didn't really further my argument, and would have
presented something which wasn't entirely related to my original query.
Later, after posting the article, I thought back on what I wrote and
recalled the Rings and elves as well

######

From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Ainur and the elements
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:50:18 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <25658-37DF339A-93@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <6upuzlmfgl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
X-WebTV-Signature: 1
	ETAsAhQQRQqftxII0jqjjZhAkL2D52OwigIUOSGTpxeLE5WX+ZOuHnOR+KKVGaQ= 
Content-Disposition: Inline
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!europa.netcrusader.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.fast.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail

Neil Franklin wrote:

>Today, yes. But the original inventor of
>air/water/earth/fire (a few 1000 years
>ago) would have not known plasma
>(where to get the temperature needed
>from?).

The concept of four elements was a convention that originated with
Aristotle.  And I doubt he knew about plasma, considering how much he
got wrong.

Dave
__
"Ever hear of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?  Morons."  -- Vizzini, from
The Princess Bride.

######

Message-ID: <37EA725B.7546@sympatico.ca>
From: William Armstrong <william.armstrong@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: william.armstrong@sympatico.ca
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Ainur and the elements
References: <6upuzlmfgl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <25658-37DF339A-93@newsd-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 18
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:34:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.137.142
X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 938111667 206.172.137.142 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:34:27 EDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:34:27 EDT
Organization: Sympatico
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!news1.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail

David Sulger wrote:
> 
> Neil Franklin wrote:
> 
> >Today, yes. But the original inventor of
> >air/water/earth/fire (a few 1000 years
> >ago) would have not known plasma
> >(where to get the temperature needed
> >from?).
> 
> The concept of four elements was a convention that originated with
> Aristotle.  And I doubt he knew about plasma, considering how much he
> got wrong.
> 
> Dave

He can't be faulted for some things, though.  The Sun revolves around
the Earth?  No, but if it did, it would look exactly the same.