From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 11 Sep 1999 22:53:52 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990911185352.19042.00005166@ng-fg1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nntp.psi.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I've been quiet lately basically because I found an addictive place over at theforce.net, arguing silly philosophical matters of Star Wars under the tag JediGaladriel. But there was one where I used a Tolkien quote, and I thought I'd get the argument going over here. The argument there was about Vader, and Lucas' insistence that we try to feel pity for him. People seem upset that such a thing is asked, and would much rather hate him. I brought up the issue of Smeagol, and no one there answered it (I wonder if they maybe thought it was, I don't know, off topic or something ;) ), so I thought I'd ask here. We know that Tolkien's belief is that it was an absolute good for Frodo and Bilbo and Sam to have pity for Smeagol, that it, in fact, saved *them* in the end, if not Smeagol himself. But what if they had run into people more directly injured by Smeagol -- Deagol's family, perhaps (pretending that they were still close enough in time to remember)? What would they make of an Eowyn-like insistence to avenge a kinsman's death? Anyway, it's an interesting argument. What do people think? --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: gordonlew@aol.com (Gordon Nash) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 12 Sep 1999 03:43:24 GMT References: <19990911185352.19042.00005166@ng-fg1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990911234324.17429.00007534@ng-ck1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >f. But what if they had run into people more >directly injured by Smeagol -- Deagol's family, perhaps (pretending that they >were still close enough in time to remember)? What would they make of an >Eowyn-like insistence to avenge a kinsman's death? > the basic situation did come up. Frodo felt pity for Saruman and Wormtongue, who destroyed their very own Shire. I can' t think of a better test of their merciful mettle. Feanole aka DrWhoFru ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 12 Sep 1999 17:40:08 GMT References: <19990911234324.17429.00007534@ng-ck1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990912134008.29468.00006113@ng-bk1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >the basic situation did come up. Frodo felt pity for Saruman and Wormtongue, >who destroyed their very own Shire. I can' t think of a better test of their >merciful mettle. That's true. And I think that, in the end, that mercy is what would save the Shire from itself just as it saved Frodo at Mt. Doom. (I would also call it not merely mercy, but also true justice... letting a mob tear someone apart is unjust, even if the person is guilty.) --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <1cd2fdd0.41dd40c5@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Lines: 60 Bytes: 2247 X-Originating-Host: 171.64.194.32 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <19990911185352.19042.00005166@ng-fg1.aol.com> X-Wren-Trace: eIuuhoee2ZPYwYyCgN+FkbmLj4+AicSPismBjJffw5zVw53ey5rH0cnZ3Q== Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:08:49 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.9 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 937109190 10.0.2.9 (Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:06:30 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:06:30 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail >I've been quiet lately basically because I found an >addictive place over at >theforce.net, arguing silly philosophical matters of Star >Wars under the tag >JediGaladriel. But there was one where I used a Tolkien >quote, and I thought >I'd get the argument going over here. > >The argument there was about Vader, and Lucas' insistence >that we try to feel >pity for him. People seem upset that such a thing is >asked, and would much >rather hate him. I brought up the issue of Smeagol, and no >one there answered >it (I wonder if they maybe thought it was, I don't know, >off topic or something >;) ), so I thought I'd ask here. > >We know that Tolkien's belief is that it was an absolute >good for Frodo and >Bilbo and Sam to have pity for Smeagol, that it, in fact, >saved *them* in the >end, if not Smeagol himself. But what if they had run into >people more >directly injured by Smeagol -- Deagol's family, perhaps >(pretending that they >were still close enough in time to remember)? What would >they make of an >Eowyn-like insistence to avenge a kinsman's death? > >Anyway, it's an interesting argument. What do people >think? It is an interesting comparison. Like Anakin, I believe Smeagol was not evil at the beginning. This is certainly not incompatible with the killing of Deagol; consider the following scenario: Smeagol asks Deagol to see what he has found. (When Bilbo asked Frodo to see the ring, Frodo saw Bilbo as an orc.) Smeagol asks (maybe politely) the ring as a birthday present. Most likely Deagol reacts violently. He may have even attacked Smeagol. A fight follows. Smeagol manages to take the ring to himself. Inevitably Deagol tries by all possible means to recover it. Smeagol kills Deagol in self-defense. Smeagol looks with horror to his friend's dead body. I think Frodo would always oppose the killing of Gollum in the same way as he tried to avoid the killing of Saruman. He also restrained some hobbits from taking revenge on the captured men in the scouring of the Shire. J.Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 12 Sep 1999 17:42:46 GMT References: <1cd2fdd0.41dd40c5@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990912134246.29468.00006114@ng-bk1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >It is an interesting comparison. Like Anakin, I believe >Smeagol was not evil at the beginning. I think it's not accidental; Lucas, like most fantasists, was probably fairly heavily influenced by Tolkien. Your version of Smeagol's fall is neat. He was supposed to have been unpleasant, but then again, that may have been true from Gandalf's "certain point of view." Then bearing the weight of the thing slowly corrupted him... but even after hundreds of years, he still retained a speck of goodness, and if Sam hadn't sleepily snapped at him, who knows? What if Smeagol *had* turned on the steps of Cirith Ungol? --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### Message-ID: <37DBEFD3.5545@sympatico.ca> From: Mongo Reply-To: william.truderung@sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol References: <1cd2fdd0.41dd40c5@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <19990912134246.29468.00006114@ng-bk1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:24:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.225.222 X-Trace: news21.bellglobal.com 937160642 206.172.225.222 (Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:24:02 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:24:02 EDT Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!news1.bellglobal.com!news21.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail FernWithy wrote: > > Your version of Smeagol's fall is neat. He was supposed to have been > unpleasant, but then again, that may have been true from Gandalf's "certain > point of view." Then bearing the weight of the thing slowly corrupted him... > but even after hundreds of years, he still retained a speck of goodness, and if > Sam hadn't sleepily snapped at him, who knows? What if Smeagol *had* turned on > the steps of Cirith Ungol? From Letter #246: "For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes (...) when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect. 'Nothing, nothing', sais Gollum softly. 'Nice master!'. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo's pity is (in a sense) wastes. Shelob's lair became inevitable." "This is due of course to the 'logic of the story'. Sam could hardly have acted differently. (...) If he had, what could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think,and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have *voluntarily* cast himself into the fiery abyss." "I think that an effect of his partial regeneration by love would have been a clearer vision when he claimed the Ring. He would have percieved the evil of Sauron, and suddenly realized that he could not use the Ring and had not the strength or stature to keep it in Sauron's despite: the only way to keep it and hurt Sauron was to destroy it and himself together - and in a flash he may have seen that this would also be the greatest service to Frodo." ###### From: "John Kendrick" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1cd2fdd0.41dd40c5@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <19990912134246.29468.00006114@ng-bk1.aol.com> Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:08:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.105.203 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.tx.home.com 937166894 24.0.105.203 (Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:08:14 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:08:14 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Well Lucas was very heaveli influenced by Tolkien. I have even heard that he wanted to make LOTR but couldnt aquire the rights. FernWithy wrote in message news:19990912134246.29468.00006114@ng-bk1.aol.com... > >It is an interesting comparison. Like Anakin, I believe > >Smeagol was not evil at the beginning. > > I think it's not accidental; Lucas, like most fantasists, was probably fairly > heavily influenced by Tolkien. > > Your version of Smeagol's fall is neat. He was supposed to have been > unpleasant, but then again, that may have been true from Gandalf's "certain > point of view." Then bearing the weight of the thing slowly corrupted him... > but even after hundreds of years, he still retained a speck of goodness, and if > Sam hadn't sleepily snapped at him, who knows? What if Smeagol *had* turned on > the steps of Cirith Ungol? > --- > FernWithy > "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual > moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical > fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: mad_doggie@hotmail.com (Linda) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:14:43 GMT Organization: Southern Cross University Lines: 15 Message-ID: <7rhj6c$bhk$1@axis.scu.edu.au> References: <19990911185352.19042.00005166@ng-fg1.aol.com> <1cd2fdd0.41dd40c5@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ch-ag2102.scu.edu.au X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!axis.scu.edu.au!wsag2102 In article <1cd2fdd0.41dd40c5@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com>, JP wrote: >It is an interesting comparison. Like Anakin, I believe >Smeagol was not evil at the beginning. >This is certainly not incompatible with the killing of >Deagol; consider the following scenario: My impression from reading the LotR, was the fact that Smeagol was not evil, but that the ring changed him. The whole point behind the ring was that the more it was used, and the longer that a person held it, the evil would take over that person. Anyway just my opinion. Linda ###### From: "John Kendrick the Magnificent" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <19990911185352.19042.00005166@ng-fg1.aol.com> <1cd2fdd0.41dd40c5@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> <7rhj6c$bhk$1@axis.scu.edu.au> Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 01:29:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.105.203 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.tx.home.com 937272552 24.0.105.203 (Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:29:12 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:29:12 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Well I hardly think Gandalf would pity nor Frodo try to reform somethingthey thought was evil from the start. Of course they may have been wrong, but Tolkien seemd inclined to make Gandalf right. "I assume you know best as usual" "I do, when I know anything at all . . . " Linda wrote in message news:7rhj6c$bhk$1@axis.scu.edu.au... > In article <1cd2fdd0.41dd40c5@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com>, JP wrote: > > >It is an interesting comparison. Like Anakin, I believe > >Smeagol was not evil at the beginning. > >This is certainly not incompatible with the killing of > >Deagol; consider the following scenario: > > My impression from reading the LotR, was the fact that Smeagol was not evil, > but that the ring changed him. The whole point behind the ring was that the > more it was used, and the longer that a person held it, the evil would take > over that person. > > Anyway just my opinion. > > Linda ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:31:06 +0200 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 35 Message-ID: <7rl0tf$89d$1@weber.a2000.nl> References: <19990911185352.19042.00005166@ng-fg1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node11aae.a2000.nl X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 937297647 8493 24.132.26.174 (14 Sep 1999 08:27:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 1999 08:27:27 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!newshub1.nl.home.com!news.nl.home.com!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail The question in my view is a simple one, and touches on the death penalty discussion. Revenge is bad for you. Period. db FernWithy wrote in message <19990911185352.19042.00005166@ng-fg1.aol.com>... > >We know that Tolkien's belief is that it was an absolute good for Frodo and >Bilbo and Sam to have pity for Smeagol, that it, in fact, saved *them* in the >end, if not Smeagol himself. But what if they had run into people more >directly injured by Smeagol -- Deagol's family, perhaps (pretending that they >were still close enough in time to remember)? What would they make of an >Eowyn-like insistence to avenge a kinsman's death? > >Anyway, it's an interesting argument. What do people think? >--- >FernWithy >"If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual >moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical >fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) _________ Nothing is ever the same _________ Pls remove ".NoSpam" from email adres when replying _________ ###### From: JP Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <1c31fd54.8b47de2b@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com> Lines: 21 Bytes: 701 X-Originating-Host: 171.64.194.32 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <7rl0tf$89d$1@weber.a2000.nl> <19990914160820.01731.00000123@ng-fr1.aol.com> X-Wren-Trace: eGdCamtyNX80LWBubDNpfVVnY2NsZShjZiVtYHszL3A5L3EyJ3YrPSU1MQ== Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:15:43 +1700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.9 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 937361466 10.0.2.9 (Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:11:06 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:11:06 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.belnet.be!carrier1.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail > Leaving aside the question of what is good or bad for > the avenger, though, what > is the proper attitude toward the penitent who has > committed a truly hurtful > crime? We don't really know what happened betwen Smeagol and Deagol. Probably what happened cannot be called a crime. Now, if the family of Deagol had killed Smeagol, that would be a crime. It is interesting to think about what would have happened if Smeagol was caught and the ring made public. Probably it would have catastrophic consequences. Joao Paulo * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 14 Sep 1999 20:08:20 GMT References: <7rl0tf$89d$1@weber.a2000.nl> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990914160820.01731.00000123@ng-fr1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.icl.net!bignews.mediaways.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >The question in my view is a simple one, and touches on the death penalty >discussion. Revenge is bad for you. Period. >db > > Leaving aside the question of what is good or bad for the avenger, though, what is the proper attitude toward the penitent who has committed a truly hurtful crime? What would Deagol's family do about Smeagol, and how could Frodo answer for him? --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:56:43 +0200 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 35 Message-ID: <7ro8bu$680$1@weber.a2000.nl> References: <7rl0tf$89d$1@weber.a2000.nl> <19990914160820.01731.00000123@ng-fr1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node11aae.a2000.nl X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 937403582 6400 24.132.26.174 (15 Sep 1999 13:53:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 1999 13:53:02 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!newshub1.nl.home.com!news.nl.home.com!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Errr... I thought I adressed that. What is good or bad for you should dictate your behaviour (though it isn't always so). Revenge=bad -> don't take revenge. That is what you should not do. Another question (perhaps the one you posed?) is what you _should_ do. I dunno, forgive? Always? Accept, certainly. Understand? db FernWithy wrote in message <19990914160820.01731.00000123@ng-fr1.aol.com>... >>The question in my view is a simple one, and touches on the death penalty >>discussion. Revenge is bad for you. Period. >>db >> >> > >Leaving aside the question of what is good or bad for the avenger, though, what >is the proper attitude toward the penitent who has committed a truly hurtful >crime? What would Deagol's family do about Smeagol, and how could Frodo answer >for him? _________ "Mostly harmless" _________ Pls remove ".NoSpam" from email adres when replying _________ ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 Sep 1999 16:49:43 GMT References: <7ro8bu$680$1@weber.a2000.nl> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990915124943.01538.00000673@ng-bh1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >Errr... I thought I adressed that. What is good or bad for you should >dictate your behaviour (though it isn't always so). >Revenge=bad -> don't take revenge. That is what you should not do. >Another question (perhaps the one you posed?) is what you _should_ do. I >dunno, forgive? Always? Accept, certainly. Understand? >db I think I'm not being clear because I'm trying not to get too much into the argument in another place. What it degenerated into was "So, what you expect me to pity Tim McVeigh? So he blew up day care center because, poor thing, no one *understood* him? Well, forget it. I'm sick of putting my compassion in the wrong places." You can sort of see his point. --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: spamblock@see.sig (Mark Myers) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:37:37 +0100 Organization: INSnet Customer Posting Message-ID: References: <7ro8bu$680$1@weber.a2000.nl> <19990915124943.01538.00000673@ng-bh1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: e0.gateway-1.route.netforce.net X-Trace: starburst.uk.insnet.net 937485458 635 195.58.64.67 (16 Sep 1999 12:37:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@starburst.uk.insnet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 1999 12:37:38 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!insnet.net!not-for-mail FernWithy wrote ... > >Errr... I thought I adressed that. What is good or bad for you should > >dictate your behaviour (though it isn't always so). > >Revenge=bad -> don't take revenge. That is what you should not do. > >Another question (perhaps the one you posed?) is what you _should_ do. I > >dunno, forgive? Always? Accept, certainly. Understand? > >db > > I think I'm not being clear because I'm trying not to get too much into the > argument in another place. What it degenerated into was "So, what you expect > me to pity Tim McVeigh? So he blew up day care center because, poor thing, no > one *understood* him? Well, forget it. I'm sick of putting my compassion in > the wrong places." > > You can sort of see his point. Yes, but take a second look. The point being made, ISTM, is that to feel anything other than compassionate is harmful to self (which is a simplification, but I'm also trying to make the point). Regarding the above example, TMcV being bad because 'no one *understood* him'; well, can you come up with a better reason? I find it rather tired and simplistic to resort to 'he was evil'. Doesn't mean I wouldn't punish him for his actions, though. Anyway, following on, what good does it do you to detest/hate/whatever someone that you don't understand? -- Regards Mark Myers jahdzia at iname dot com ###### From: Johnathan George Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:59:39 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 35 Message-ID: <37E1300B.4CB0C2EF@mindspring.com> References: <7ro8bu$680$1@weber.a2000.nl> <19990915124943.01538.00000673@ng-bh1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.3e.65 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 16 Sep 1999 18:00:52 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail FernWithy wrote: > > I think I'm not being clear because I'm trying not to get too much into the > argument in another place. What it degenerated into was "So, what you expect > me to pity Tim McVeigh? So he blew up day care center because, poor thing, no > one *understood* him? Well, forget it. I'm sick of putting my compassion in > the wrong places." > > You can sort of see his point. Sort of. I think that the point is not whether T. McV (or Gollum or Anakin) deserves our pity or not. You can look at any of the situations in ways that make them seem pitiable, or utterly pitiless. The point is that there are negative consequences to (as the emperor urged Luke to do) giving into hate. It's very tempting to hate people... it makes us feel better about ourselves, when we in many ways are (at least potentially) no better than them. And as is pointed out in SW, if we do give into hate it's at the risk of becoming a bit more like the person you hate. So when someone says "I feel no pity for Tim McVeigh, I hate him for the things he did", they just moved a step closer to being another Tim McVeigh, who basically gave in to his hatred. Johnathan George --- > FernWithy > "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual > moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical > fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### Message-ID: <37E630AB.C7F54C59@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol References: <7ro8bu$680$1@weber.a2000.nl> <19990915124943.01538.00000673@ng-bh1.aol.com> <37E1300B.4CB0C2EF@mindspring.com> <7s51oo$5du$1@weber.a2000.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.8.153.31 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937832106 209.8.153.31 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:55:06 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:55:06 EDT Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:03:39 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail db wrote: ... > In another reply in this thread I read someone was sick of putting his > compassion in the wrong place... What place can that possibly be? Can anyone > tell me what harm compassion can do, anywhere, at anytime? A lack of > compassion is usually a major factor in, if not the actual cause of shaping > grief. Misplaced compassion can lead to helping someone who might take advantage of that help to harm others. This is not to say I disapprove of compassion, merely that it is indeed possible for compassion to be misplaced. ###### From: Johnathan George Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:26:35 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 28 Message-ID: <37E6522B.C3C5583B@mindspring.com> References: <7ro8bu$680$1@weber.a2000.nl> <19990915124943.01538.00000673@ng-bh1.aol.com> <37E1300B.4CB0C2EF@mindspring.com> <7s51oo$5du$1@weber.a2000.nl> <37E630AB.C7F54C59@wizard.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.3d.41 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 20 Sep 1999 15:27:57 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.axxsys.net!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail "James Kuyper Jr." wrote: > > db wrote: > ... > > In another reply in this thread I read someone was sick of putting his > > compassion in the wrong place... What place can that possibly be? Can anyone > > tell me what harm compassion can do, anywhere, at anytime? A lack of > > compassion is usually a major factor in, if not the actual cause of shaping > > grief. > > Misplaced compassion can lead to helping someone who might take > advantage of that help to harm others. This is not to say I disapprove > of compassion, merely that it is indeed possible for compassion to be > misplaced. I'm not sure it can be misplaced... maybe misused compassion is a better way of putting it. The old saying "Hate the sin, love the sinner comes to mind". I think that probably holds true even in the case of those who don't think of these things in terms of "sin". Another thing about compassion is that it doesn't necessarily change what you think should be *done* in the situation. My compassion for Tim McVeigh doesn't mean that I think he should get away with what he did without punishment. Johnathan George ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:23:56 +0200 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 59 Message-ID: <7s51oo$5du$1@weber.a2000.nl> References: <7ro8bu$680$1@weber.a2000.nl> <19990915124943.01538.00000673@ng-bh1.aol.com> <37E1300B.4CB0C2EF@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node11aae.a2000.nl X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 937822808 5566 24.132.26.174 (20 Sep 1999 10:20:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1999 10:20:08 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newscore.univie.ac.at!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Thank you, Johnathan, for taking the trouble to make my point for me. This point seems to me to be so obvious that I really didn't feel like belabouring it. It really is your choice. Go on, hate whoever you like, see if it makes you feel better. In another reply in this thread I read someone was sick of putting his compassion in the wrong place... What place can that possibly be? Can anyone tell me what harm compassion can do, anywhere, at anytime? A lack of compassion is usually a major factor in, if not the actual cause of shaping grief. db Johnathan George wrote in message <37E1300B.4CB0C2EF@mindspring.com>... > > >FernWithy wrote: > >> >> I think I'm not being clear because I'm trying not to get too much into the >> argument in another place. What it degenerated into was "So, what you expect >> me to pity Tim McVeigh? So he blew up day care center because, poor thing, no >> one *understood* him? Well, forget it. I'm sick of putting my compassion in >> the wrong places." >> >> You can sort of see his point. > >Sort of. I think that the point is not whether T. McV (or Gollum or >Anakin) deserves our pity or not. You can look at any of the situations >in ways that make them seem pitiable, or utterly pitiless. The point is >that there are negative consequences to (as the emperor urged Luke to >do) giving into hate. It's very tempting to hate people... it makes us >feel better about ourselves, when we in many ways are (at least >potentially) no better than them. And as is pointed out in SW, if we do >give into hate it's at the risk of becoming a bit more like the person >you hate. > >So when someone says "I feel no pity for Tim McVeigh, I hate him for the >things he did", they just moved a step closer to being another Tim >McVeigh, who basically gave in to his hatred. > >Johnathan George _________ "Mostly harmless" _________ Pls remove ".NoSpam" from email adres when replying _________ ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:09:38 +0200 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 39 Message-ID: <7s5evv$idq$1@weber.a2000.nl> References: <7ro8bu$680$1@weber.a2000.nl> <19990915124943.01538.00000673@ng-bh1.aol.com> <37E1300B.4CB0C2EF@mindspring.com> <7s51oo$5du$1@weber.a2000.nl> <37E630AB.C7F54C59@wizard.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: node11aae.a2000.nl X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 937836351 18874 24.132.26.174 (20 Sep 1999 14:05:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1999 14:05:51 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail I asked what harm compassion can possibly do. You may ask: "What use is compassion if it doesn't somehow translate into something practical?", but I was not speaking of help, or leading to help. Compassion (and now we're out of context, but no matter) to me signifies empathy, an ability to put yourself in another's shoes and thus feel and understand the other's suffering. That never caused further suffering (that I'm aware of), and I speak out of experience when I say that once a person can show compassion and empathy to even an arch-enemy, new possibilities for peace and forgiveness open up. Overcoming one's own anger, grief and frustration is the hardest part. db James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message <37E630AB.C7F54C59@wizard.net>... >db wrote: >... >> In another reply in this thread I read someone was sick of putting his >> compassion in the wrong place... What place can that possibly be? Can anyone >> tell me what harm compassion can do, anywhere, at anytime? A lack of >> compassion is usually a major factor in, if not the actual cause of shaping >> grief. > >Misplaced compassion can lead to helping someone who might take >advantage of that help to harm others. This is not to say I disapprove >of compassion, merely that it is indeed possible for compassion to be >misplaced. _________ "Mostly harmless" _________ Pls remove ".NoSpam" from email adres when replying _________ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Lines: 87 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 20 Sep 1999 16:14:12 GMT References: <37E6522B.C3C5583B@mindspring.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990920121412.06414.00000052@ngol07.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37E6522B.C3C5583B@mindspring.com>, Johnathan George writes: >> > In another reply in this thread I read someone was sick of putting his >> > compassion in the wrong place... What place can that possibly be? Can >anyone >> > tell me what harm compassion can do, anywhere, at anytime? A lack of >> > compassion is usually a major factor in, if not the actual cause of >shaping >> > grief. >> >> Misplaced compassion can lead to helping someone who might take >> advantage of that help to harm others. This is not to say I disapprove >> of compassion, merely that it is indeed possible for compassion to be >> misplaced. > >I'm not sure it can be misplaced... maybe misused compassion is a better >way of putting it. The old saying "Hate the sin, love the sinner comes >to mind". I think that probably holds true even in the case of those >who don't think of these things in terms of "sin". > >Another thing about compassion is that it doesn't necessarily change >what you think should be *done* in the situation. My compassion for Tim >McVeigh doesn't mean that I think he should get away with what he did >without punishment. > There was a Hercules episode where a character was given a chance to have god-like powers. He was shown a man trying to cross a rope bridge and the bridge started to collapse. The character used his power to rescue the man who would have died had the bridge collapsed. Later, we find out that the man the character rescued was a murderer and he later robbed and killed a young family. It's interesting that these dilemmas don't really appear in Tolkien's world. If one trust s in fate and does what comes naturally, it all works out in the end. Sending a hobbit into Mordor sounds absurd but the Council took it as ordained fate that Frodo had possession of the Ring. Sam was right that objectively it seemed absurd to let Gollum go. Yet it worked out in the end. There's an interesing passage in Letters in which the difference between Manwe and Melkor is taken up. I don't have it with me now but it basically said that Manwe trusted in fate because he knew that even things that appeared bad or evil ultimately redounded to the glory of Illuvatar and thus towards the good. This repeats the admonition Illuvatar gives the Ainur as told in Ainulindale. In the end this is a very christian world view regarding why bad things happen to good people. It's not, as some say, "all part of god's plan", but rather than all things ultimatately redound to God's glory. It's a subtle but important difference. In the character of Gollum we see this idea in a microcosm. All along the way, Gollum commits evil acts or seemingly bad things happen: the killing of his cousin, his capture by Sauron, his escape from the wood elves, his failure to repent. Yet in the end, the force of good in the Ea was victorious and it was only through Gollum that Sauron was defeated and the Free Peoples saved. Feanor's actions and the revolt of the Noldor work the same way. The Valar had proven themselves quite timid in their dealings with Melkor. At the time of the revolt, Feanor chastized the Valar for doing nothing and said something along the lines that at least the Noldor had the courage to try and would go down fighting if necessary and be remembered in song. He was right. If not for the revolt of the Noldor and the long trials and tribulations of the wars of beleriand, it is unlikely the Valar would ever have gotten off their collective asses to do anything about Melkor. Even the evil of Feanor's rebellion operated ultimately to the good by providing the impetus for Melkor's ultimate overthrow. It's interesting that Galadriel refers to her and the Noldor's fight against evil as the long defeat. I believe in Letters Tolkien stated he was a Catholic and therefore a believer in the long defeat. It would be interesting to do an analysis of Tolkien's Catholic long defeat and Galadriel's long defeat. But anyway, again, the theme that all even ultimately redound to the glory of god is repeated in his private belief. The fall of man is seen in the story of adam and eve, yet that defeat ultimately leads into the long story of salvation history seen in the Old Testament - a long defeat if I ever saw one. However, in Catholic christian belief that long defeat ultimately led to the great victory of Christ. Even that victory was gained by a defeat. In christian belief, Man could only be saved by the sacrifice on the cross, the death of Jesus and his return. Everything - the fall of Man, the long defeat of Israel, the death of Jesus - all ultimately redounded to the glory of god and the salvation of his children. As precisely happened in Middle Earth. (BTW, I'm not trying to start a debate on christianily or religious beliefs but these religious ideas appear to have greatly influenced the mythology of Middle Earth). Russ From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Lines: 87 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 20 Sep 1999 16:14:12 GMT References: <37E6522B.C3C5583B@mindspring.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990920121412.06414.00000052@ngol07.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37E6522B.C3C5583B@mindspring.com>, Johnathan George writes: >> > In another reply in this thread I read someone was sick of putting his >> > compassion in the wrong place... What place can that possibly be? Can >anyone >> > tell me what harm compassion can do, anywhere, at anytime? A lack of >> > compassion is usually a major factor in, if not the actual cause of >shaping >> > grief. >> >> Misplaced compassion can lead to helping someone who might take >> advantage of that help to harm others. This is not to say I disapprove >> of compassion, merely that it is indeed possible for compassion to be >> misplaced. > >I'm not sure it can be misplaced... maybe misused compassion is a better >way of putting it. The old saying "Hate the sin, love the sinner comes >to mind". I think that probably holds true even in the case of those >who don't think of these things in terms of "sin". > >Another thing about compassion is that it doesn't necessarily change >what you think should be *done* in the situation. My compassion for Tim >McVeigh doesn't mean that I think he should get away with what he did >without punishment. > There was a Hercules episode where a character was given a chance to have god-like powers. He was shown a man trying to cross a rope bridge and the bridge started to collapse. The character used his power to rescue the man who would have died had the bridge collapsed. Later, we find out that the man the character rescued was a murderer and he later robbed and killed a young family. It's interesting that these dilemmas don't really appear in Tolkien's world. If one trust s in fate and does what comes naturally, it all works out in the end. Sending a hobbit into Mordor sounds absurd but the Council took it as ordained fate that Frodo had possession of the Ring. Sam was right that objectively it seemed absurd to let Gollum go. Yet it worked out in the end. There's an interesing passage in Letters in which the difference between Manwe and Melkor is taken up. I don't have it with me now but it basically said that Manwe trusted in fate because he knew that even things that appeared bad or evil ultimately redounded to the glory of Illuvatar and thus towards the good. This repeats the admonition Illuvatar gives the Ainur as told in Ainulindale. In the end this is a very christian world view regarding why bad things happen to good people. It's not, as some say, "all part of god's plan", but rather than all things ultimatately redound to God's glory. It's a subtle but important difference. In the character of Gollum we see this idea in a microcosm. All along the way, Gollum commits evil acts or seemingly bad things happen: the killing of his cousin, his capture by Sauron, his escape from the wood elves, his failure to repent. Yet in the end, the force of good in the Ea was victorious and it was only through Gollum that Sauron was defeated and the Free Peoples saved. Feanor's actions and the revolt of the Noldor work the same way. The Valar had proven themselves quite timid in their dealings with Melkor. At the time of the revolt, Feanor chastized the Valar for doing nothing and said something along the lines that at least the Noldor had the courage to try and would go down fighting if necessary and be remembered in song. He was right. If not for the revolt of the Noldor and the long trials and tribulations of the wars of beleriand, it is unlikely the Valar would ever have gotten off their collective asses to do anything about Melkor. Even the evil of Feanor's rebellion operated ultimately to the good by providing the impetus for Melkor's ultimate overthrow. It's interesting that Galadriel refers to her and the Noldor's fight against evil as the long defeat. I believe in Letters Tolkien stated he was a Catholic and therefore a believer in the long defeat. It would be interesting to do an analysis of Tolkien's Catholic long defeat and Galadriel's long defeat. But anyway, again, the theme that all even ultimately redound to the glory of god is repeated in his private belief. The fall of man is seen in the story of adam and eve, yet that defeat ultimately leads into the long story of salvation history seen in the Old Testament - a long defeat if I ever saw one. However, in Catholic christian belief that long defeat ultimately led to the great victory of Christ. Even that victory was gained by a defeat. In christian belief, Man could only be saved by the sacrifice on the cross, the death of Jesus and his return. Everything - the fall of Man, the long defeat of Israel, the death of Jesus - all ultimately redounded to the glory of god and the salvation of his children. As precisely happened in Middle Earth. (BTW, I'm not trying to start a debate on christianily or religious beliefs but these religious ideas appear to have greatly influenced the mythology of Middle Earth). Russ ###### From: cirya Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pity, mercy, justice, and Smeagol Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:54:43 +0200 Organization: Planet Internet Lines: 55 Message-ID: <37E95023.7EB9CFA9@planet.nl> References: <7ro8bu$680$1@weber.a2000.nl> <19990915124943.01538.00000673@ng-bh1.aol.com> <37E1300B.4CB0C2EF@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ehv0013-2.dial.wxs.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: reader1.wxs.nl 938037698 22669 195.121.156.13 (22 Sep 1999 22:01:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wxs.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Sep 1999 22:01:38 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!oleane!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!gate.news.unisource.nl!news.wxs.nl!not-for-mail Johnathan George wrote: > > FernWithy wrote: > > > > > I think I'm not being clear because I'm trying not to get too much into the > > argument in another place. What it degenerated into was "So, what you expect > > me to pity Tim McVeigh? So he blew up day care center because, poor thing, no > > one *understood* him? Well, forget it. I'm sick of putting my compassion in > > the wrong places." > > > > You can sort of see his point. > > Sort of. I think that the point is not whether T. McV (or Gollum or > Anakin) deserves our pity or not. You can look at any of the situations > in ways that make them seem pitiable, or utterly pitiless. The point is > that there are negative consequences to (as the emperor urged Luke to > do) giving into hate. It's very tempting to hate people... it makes us > feel better about ourselves, when we in many ways are (at least > potentially) no better than them. And as is pointed out in SW, if we do > give into hate it's at the risk of becoming a bit more like the person > you hate. Somehow this reminds me of an episode of Derrick (a German police series), where a grandfather had the chance to shoot the rapist and murderer of his beloved granddaughter. He choose not to. Insp. Derrick asked him why and got the following answer: "Killing this man would have tied him to me. I wish to have no ties binding us." It struck me that his utter revenge was to have none. PS: They don't do death penalties in Germany. > > So when someone says "I feel no pity for Tim McVeigh, I hate him for the > things he did", they just moved a step closer to being another Tim > McVeigh, who basically gave in to his hatred. > > Johnathan George > > --- > > FernWithy > > "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual > > moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical > > fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) -- Love, Cirya (dismayed by the sheer volume of this ng, and weeks behind in reading) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * You should have fun being a librarian, because you won't get rich being a librarian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *