From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 07 Sep 1999 03:15:32 GMT References: <6a%A3.817$KD4.138159@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990906231532.22934.00005884@ng-fo1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >One consideration is that the copyright concept may not be fully >supportive. Tolkien estate may not like the idea, even if Tolkien would >have liked it (he did say he wanted the Books to be as widely available >as possible). Tolkien also went to great lengths to ask fans not to buy an edition of the trilogy that was released in America from which neither he nor his publisher derived any profit. I don't remember which company did it -- anyone with the Letters that can check that? He was fully supportive of that part of copyright law, and to the best of my knowledge, his estate has continued to be. --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 07 Sep 1999 20:27:29 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990907162729.12558.00003177@ng-fp1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >I'm not surprised that this idea keeps being posted, but it would not be >legal. It would be perfectly legal if the Tolkien estate and the publisher released it on a CD-ROM. That would be a good, marketable idea. --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: "M Phillips" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <19990907162729.12558.00003177@ng-fp1.aol.com> Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:24:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.8.84.95 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: nnrp4.clara.net 936962647 195.8.84.95 (Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:24:07 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:24:07 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp4.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail FernWithy wrote in message news:19990907162729.12558.00003177@ng-fp1.aol.com... > >I'm not surprised that this idea keeps being posted, but it would not be > >legal. > > It would be perfectly legal if the Tolkien estate and the publisher released it > on a CD-ROM. That would be a good, marketable idea. > But then Harper Collins wouldn't be able to repackage that every year, the way they do books. I think you need to look at commercial considerations - I was told that just putting anew cover on LOTR in hardback sells 50,000 in the UK. A new cover on a cd-rom isn't the same (and its easy to pirate cd-roms). It ain't going to happen. ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:38:13 -0700 Organization: Netcom Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <19990907162729.12558.00003177@ng-fp1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: stl-wa37-38.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 12 11:33:08 AM CDT 1999 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ix.netcom.com!news "M Phillips" wrote: > >FernWithy wrote in message >news:19990907162729.12558.00003177@ng-fp1.aol.com... >> >I'm not surprised that this idea keeps being posted, but it would not be >> >legal. >> >> It would be perfectly legal if the Tolkien estate and the publisher >released it >> on a CD-ROM. That would be a good, marketable idea. >> > >But then Harper Collins wouldn't be able to repackage that every year, the >way they do books. I think you need to look at commercial considerations - I >was told that just putting anew cover on LOTR in hardback sells 50,000 in >the UK. A new cover on a cd-rom isn't the same (and its easy to pirate >cd-roms). > >It ain't going to happen. > Nonsense. Every year, they just add a few new maps, a few new illustrations, maybe some notes on the background, put the OS-du-jour on the box cover, etc, etc, etc. Piracy, however, is a separate problem, and that may well discourage them from doing it. ###### From: weatherwax@btinternet.com (Mike Dickinson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:55:57 GMT Organization: Mike's Place Lines: 33 Message-ID: <37dc0b43.6716132@news.btinternet.com> References: <19990907162729.12558.00003177@ng-fp1.aol.com> Reply-To: weatherwax@btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.6.21.101 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-peer!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:38:13 -0700, Paul S. Person wrote: >>> It would be perfectly legal if the Tolkien estate and the publisher >>> released it on a CD-ROM. That would be a good, marketable idea. >> >>But then Harper Collins wouldn't be able to repackage that every year, the >>way they do books. [snip] >>It ain't going to happen. > >Nonsense. > >Every year, they just add a few new maps, a few new illustrations, >maybe some notes on the background, put the OS-du-jour on the box >cover, etc, etc, etc. It would be a very good spin-off from the new trilogy of films, wouldn't it? Has Jackson bought computer game rights as well? You could stick the books, a film and a game all on one DVD... :) >Piracy, however, is a separate problem, and that may well discourage >them from doing it. I suppose you'd have to put something like a corrupt thing on the disc and rely on the reader program to ignor that bad sector, so when it was copied, the corrupt area would be corrected and the program wouldn't work. Are there any techie people around to tell me if that would work? -- Mike Dickinson ###### From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: 13 Sep 1999 04:39:40 GMT Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ (USA) Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7rhv6c$as1$1@news.asu.edu> References: <8YHA3.2537$Tf3.152907@news.uswest.net> <7qv1jj$mip$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec2.asu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!CS.Arizona.EDU!math.arizona.edu!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!aztec.asu.edu!chuckb In a previous article, not@home.thx ("brimstone9") says: >I am fairly certain that the tangle of copyright tape would securely >entangle even the most innovative wizard. Were the text available for a >fee, no doubt I would gladly offer up the money. However given the ubiquity >of MP3 "sharing" going on, I doubt any distribution house would trust the >buyers of such electronic texts to keep it to themselves. And rightly would >they judge us. So, if I buy a copy of LOTR at the bookstore, and loan it to a friend when I've finished, it isn't copyright violation. But if I buy an etext, and do exactly the same, it is? No wonder we have more lawyers per capita than any other country. FWIW, the CD-ROM collection of 108 years of National Geographic has gotten around that problem by using Jpegs of the page, not a text transcription. They can be printed, but cannot be copied into your PC. -- ###### From: "Alatar" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:06:29 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7rib71$270$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <19990907162729.12558.00003177@ng-fp1.aol.com> <37dc0b43.6716132@news.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-49.amlodipine.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news4.svr.pol.co.uk 937209889 2272 62.136.50.177 (13 Sep 1999 08:04:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Sep 1999 08:04:49 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Mike Dickinson wrote: >I suppose you'd have to put something like a corrupt thing on the disc >and rely on the reader program to ignor that bad sector, so when it >was copied, the corrupt area would be corrected and the program >wouldn't work. > >Are there any techie people around to tell me if that would work? Sounds possible. There are computer viruses that can convince your computer that parts of a disk are corrupt so that those sectors get ignored by the computer. I think this could be adapted to work like you describe. It may even have already been done. Alatar Protector of the secret glen of Morangie, where the drink of gold be made. I just got lost in thought, it was unfamiliar territory. Find that Tolkien site in The Cave of Lost Scrolls: http://www.invoke.freeserve.co.uk/alatar/lostscrolls.htm ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: 13 Sep 1999 15:47:57 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 87 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uiu5ex6r6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <19990907162729.12558.00003177@ng-fp1.aol.com> <37dc0b43.6716132@news.btinternet.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 weatherwax@btinternet.com (Mike Dickinson) writes: > > On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:38:13 -0700, Paul S. Person > wrote: > > >Piracy, however, is a separate problem, and that may well discourage > >them from doing it. > > I suppose you'd have to put something like a corrupt thing on the disc > and rely on the reader program to ignor that bad sector, Rely on what reader program? What happens if the CD user uses an different program to access it? > so when it > was copied, the corrupt area would be corrected and the program > wouldn't work. What one program can correct, so can an other one, without doing the publisher-friendly checks. Actually the publishers own program will also de-corrupt for all users (legal and not), unless you have some form of individualised machine-dependant license key. Them long silly numbers you have to type into many PC programs only ensure that the installer has to have either the original CD present, or the slight extra work to also copy the numbers when copying the CD. If the original CD owner registered his CD they would also allow tracking the copies back to who handed them out, but who registers these days? You only lose customer support which is usually useless anyway. Having every single customer need to phone/fax/email in their machine identity plus proof of purchase and then install an key you send them back, may be do-able with $1000 mainframe/server software (do not forget the salary costs for the publisher) and professional admins, but I doubt an consumer product will stand be acceptable with such an system. And anyway, until PentiumIII PCs do not have an machine identity. And with PIII having each CPU update wiping out your identity, and so also your licenses (go and get new license key, prove that you can not be using the old one any more), is not good either. Limit to 1 key per year faills when your new CPU dies 3 months into use. And what about the costs of developing such an reader software for all different computer systems (Windows-only programs will piss off all Mac and Linux users). And such systems are awfull. Have you ever been copybroke (not able to access something you paid for because of an broken copy prevention system)? And then do not forget that most children do not like intrusice nannies babysiting them. Most grown-ups dislike it equally that their PC ist trying to nanny them. > Are there any techie people around to tell me if that would work? The software industry has been trying this since about 30 years. It has failled totally (as in any normal user can circumvent it) in all attempts, with the exeption of above mentioned personalised license keys. And even they are breakble by dedicated users. Simply catch the de-corrpted output when it goes to the screen. Or develop an alternative reader. Microsoft has just introduced such an secured format for music, MS-Audio (to replace the pirate-friendly MP3). Result: it was cracked within 3 days of being available. The reader is rumored to be existant but not quite finished. Actually there exists an entire subculture of hackers (the so-called crackers) for whom cracking such systems is their hobby. Their state of art is so high, that good ones aim for the "zero day warez", that is, to have their cracked version out the same day as the publisher officially releases. Computing is about access to data, not prevention. Those trying to prevent have the entire terrain tilted against them. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: 13 Sep 1999 15:58:26 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 37 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uhfkyx69p.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8YHA3.2537$Tf3.152907@news.uswest.net> <7qv1jj$mip$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rhv6c$as1$1@news.asu.edu> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) writes: > > In a previous article, not@home.thx ("brimstone9") says: > > >of MP3 "sharing" going on, I doubt any distribution house would trust the > >buyers of such electronic texts to keep it to themselves. And rightly would > >they judge us. > > So, if I buy a copy of LOTR at the bookstore, and loan it to a friend > when I've finished, it isn't copyright violation. But if I buy an etext, > and do exactly the same, it is? No wonder we have more lawyers per capita > than any other country. Computers and digitalisation are here to make the world better. For publishers the word better translates into more restrictions, forcing more people to pay to get their access. Luckily computers seem to have an entirely different view on this. > FWIW, the CD-ROM collection of 108 years of National Geographic has > gotten around that problem by using Jpegs of the page, not a text > transcription. They can be printed, but cannot be copied into your > PC. Now that sounds silly. How is such an picture collection to be searched? How could I with an Tolkien-in-jpgs do "Search balrog & wings"? Or "Search elves & ears"? :-) That constitutes the real value of having the text in digital. I certainly do not intend to sit for days in front of the computer reading the text from front to end. For that I have the paper book. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it ###### From: jhaas1@bigred.unl.edu (Jeff Haas) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:37:26 -0500 Organization: Ha! Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <19990907162729.12558.00003177@ng-fp1.aol.com> <37dc0b43.6716132@news.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pcp009545pcs.unl.edu X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 X-GeekCode: http://www.geekcode.com Version 3.12 X-GeekCode-1: GCS d- s+:- a-- C++>$ UL+ P+>++ L+ E W+ N++ X-GeekCode-2: o K? w-- !O M++ V PS(+) PE++ Y+ PGP- t+ 5>+ X-GeekCode-3: X+ R- tv+ b++ DI+ D-(--) G e>++ h !r y- Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.enteract.com!newsfeed.inetnebr.com!unlnews.unl.edu!crcnews.unl.edu!jhaas1 In article <37dc0b43.6716132@news.btinternet.com>, weatherwax@btinternet.com wrote: > I suppose you'd have to put something like a corrupt thing on the disc > and rely on the reader program to ignor that bad sector, so when it > was copied, the corrupt area would be corrected and the program > wouldn't work. > > Are there any techie people around to tell me if that would work? It's been done (PlayStation CD-ROMs), and it's been gotten around. -- Jeff Haas ICQ: 7401612 Go Big Red! "Profanity and rock-n-roll are the two things that are most satisfying at full volume." --"Baby Blues" Unsolicited e-mails will be reported to the proper authorities. ###### From: "M Phillips" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8YHA3.2537$Tf3.152907@news.uswest.net> <7qv1jj$mip$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rhv6c$as1$1@news.asu.edu> Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:51:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.8.90.75 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: nnrp3.clara.net 937227061 195.8.90.75 (Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:51:01 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:51:01 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp3.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail CHUCK BRAMLET wrote in message news:7rhv6c$as1$1@news.asu.edu... > > > So, if I buy a copy of LOTR at the bookstore, and loan it to a friend > when I've finished, it isn't copyright violation. But if I buy an etext, > and do exactly the same, it is? It's OK to give someone the cd, but only if you've deleted the software from your pc. Otherwise, it's piracy. It's in the licence agreement that everyone clicks past when they install software. You do not 'buy' a piece of software - you take out a license to use it. You never own a copy of any piece of software. Subtle point, and I don't know why, but that's the way the software industry does it. ###### From: weatherwax@btinternet.com (Mike Dickinson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:45:11 GMT Organization: Mike's Place Lines: 17 Message-ID: <37dd1c36.3406804@news.btinternet.com> References: <19990907162729.12558.00003177@ng-fp1.aol.com> <37dc0b43.6716132@news.btinternet.com> Reply-To: weatherwax@btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Host: host5-171-226-219.btinternet.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-peer!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail On Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:37:26 -0500, jhaas1@bigred.unl.edu (Jeff Haas) wrote: >> I suppose you'd have to put something like a corrupt thing on the disc >> and rely on the reader program to ignor that bad sector, so when it >> was copied, the corrupt area would be corrected and the program >> wouldn't work. >> >> Are there any techie people around to tell me if that would work? > >It's been done (PlayStation CD-ROMs), and it's been gotten around. How about those non-copiable files you can get with some music software? -- Mike Dickinson ###### From: weatherwax@btinternet.com (Mike Dickinson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 17:42:00 GMT Organization: Mike's Place Lines: 33 Message-ID: <37de7f54.1952655@news.btinternet.com> References: <19990907162729.12558.00003177@ng-fp1.aol.com> <37dc0b43.6716132@news.btinternet.com> <6uiu5ex6r6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: weatherwax@btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Host: host5-171-240-26.btinternet.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!peer.news.th.u-net.net!u-net!btnet-peer!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail On 13 Sep 1999 15:47:57 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: >> >Piracy, however, is a separate problem, and that may well discourage >> >them from doing it. >> >> I suppose you'd have to put something like a corrupt thing on the disc >> and rely on the reader program to ignore that bad sector, > >Rely on what reader program? What happens if the CD user uses an >different program to access it? I kind of meant that the text is decoded by a particular program that relies on data being in specific places of the disc, and when it's copied it's corrected, but I think I see your point, and by the rest of your message you certainly proved the line in your sig! ;) Thanks for answering my questions (even the unasked ones) about piracy. It's a depressing business, isn't it? :) >Computing is about access to data, not prevention. Those trying to >prevent have the entire terrain tilted against them. But you've got to admit that it's useful and kind of comforting when it's possible for someone to sell something and make a profit from legitimate sales - although it's also comforting in a certain way to know that it's possible to make illegitimate copies... BTW, I'm *so* glad you didn't say "information wants to be free" there. ;) -- Mike Dickinson ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: 15 Sep 1999 20:02:51 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 73 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uk8psjbn8.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <19990907162729.12558.00003177@ng-fp1.aol.com> <37dc0b43.6716132@news.btinternet.com> <6uiu5ex6r6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <37de7f54.1952655@news.btinternet.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 weatherwax@btinternet.com (Mike Dickinson) writes: > > On 13 Sep 1999 15:47:57 +0200, Neil Franklin > wrote: > > >Rely on what reader program? What happens if the CD user uses an > >different program to access it? > > Thanks for answering my questions (even the unasked ones) about > piracy. It's a depressing business, isn't it? :) For those wanting to control spread of data, yes. For those wanting unlimited information folw, no. This is actually a typical "coin with 2 sides" problem. Historically it is the same thing as with any other new technology changing economics (in this case replication and distribution) and as such changing social structures that are dependant on them (in this case authoring and publishing). See the change from agricultural to industrial society (and its consequence of from aristocracy to capitalism). Or from industrial to services (ans so from big corporations to many small firms). Or on a smaller scale: the change from horsedrawn to motordriven vehicles. Or even smaller: the change to self-service fuel stations. > But you've got to admit that it's useful and kind of comforting > when it's possible for someone to sell something and make a profit > from legitimate sales - Thanks for the some>>thing<< in that sentance. Actually things will not be touched by this change (they can not be copied, nor downloaded (*)), nor will services (they are individual). * damn it, I want a replicator. Oops, too much Sci-Fi there. But distributing data (and distribution-surcharge financed authoring) seem to be on the way out. One of the reasons I changed from programming to sysadmining (the other being that it is more fun). I think publishers and authors stand an snowball-in-hells chance, or to be more on topic an ring-in-Orodruins chance. Of course like any other prediction this is IMHO (or IMNSHO). I assume end-of-agriculture-age predictions, about what industrialisation will bring, missed badly, even those by the new industrialists (but most likely theirs were a bit nearer). The only sure thing is, that there will be large change. > BTW, I'm *so* glad you didn't say "information wants to be free" > there. ;) LOL Because I do not believe in that phrase. For me the word "want" implies an being with desires, will and planning. Information is not a being. I have yet to see an text that "wants" anything, "hey please copy me to an floppy I am feeling bored on this hard disk". I suppose that is the result of reading "too much" good literature, such as Tolkien. :-) P.S: I do believe in the "information flows wherever it can, like water" phrase. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 10:06:10 -0700 Organization: Netcom Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <19990907162729.12558.00003177@ng-fp1.aol.com> <37dc0b43.6716132@news.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: stl-wa37-52.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 19 12:00:52 PM CDT 1999 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!isdnet!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news weatherwax@btinternet.com (Mike Dickinson) wrote: >On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:38:13 -0700, Paul S. Person > wrote: > >>>> It would be perfectly legal if the Tolkien estate and the publisher >>>> released it on a CD-ROM. That would be a good, marketable idea. >>> >>>But then Harper Collins wouldn't be able to repackage that every year, the >>>way they do books. >[snip] >>>It ain't going to happen. >> >>Nonsense. >> >>Every year, they just add a few new maps, a few new illustrations, >>maybe some notes on the background, put the OS-du-jour on the box >>cover, etc, etc, etc. > >It would be a very good spin-off from the new trilogy of films, >wouldn't it? Has Jackson bought computer game rights as well? You >could stick the books, a film and a game all on one DVD... :) > >>Piracy, however, is a separate problem, and that may well discourage >>them from doing it. > >I suppose you'd have to put something like a corrupt thing on the disc >and rely on the reader program to ignor that bad sector, so when it >was copied, the corrupt area would be corrected and the program >wouldn't work. > >Are there any techie people around to tell me if that would work? Some DOS games, I believe, did something similar by literally burning a hole in the floppy at a known location and then working around it. IIRC, this "inspired" a lot a hard work to pirate the material anyway! ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 10:06:11 -0700 Organization: Netcom Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <8YHA3.2537$Tf3.152907@news.uswest.net> <7qv1jj$mip$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rhv6c$as1$1@news.asu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: stl-wa37-52.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 19 12:00:54 PM CDT 1999 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!news.ndh.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news "M Phillips" wrote: > >CHUCK BRAMLET wrote in message >news:7rhv6c$as1$1@news.asu.edu... >> >> >> So, if I buy a copy of LOTR at the bookstore, and loan it to a friend >> when I've finished, it isn't copyright violation. But if I buy an etext, >> and do exactly the same, it is? > >It's OK to give someone the cd, but only if you've deleted the software from >your pc. Otherwise, it's piracy. It's in the licence agreement that everyone >clicks past when they install software. You do not 'buy' a piece of >software - you take out a license to use it. You never own a copy of any >piece of software. Subtle point, and I don't know why, but that's the way >the software industry does it. > In fact, some software licenses actually state that you can treat the software "like a book" and then define exactly what that means -- very much what you said above, it means that the license is _freely transferrable_ not that the software is shareable. ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 10:06:13 -0700 Organization: Netcom Lines: 28 Message-ID: <2hflN8V=ACH9+846IIWR2O6hbACB@4ax.com> References: <8YHA3.2537$Tf3.152907@news.uswest.net> <7qv1jj$mip$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rhv6c$as1$1@news.asu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: stl-wa37-52.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 19 12:00:55 PM CDT 1999 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) wrote: > >In a previous article, not@home.thx ("brimstone9") says: > >>I am fairly certain that the tangle of copyright tape would securely >>entangle even the most innovative wizard. Were the text available for a >>fee, no doubt I would gladly offer up the money. However given the ubiquity >>of MP3 "sharing" going on, I doubt any distribution house would trust the >>buyers of such electronic texts to keep it to themselves. And rightly would >>they judge us. > >So, if I buy a copy of LOTR at the bookstore, and loan it to a friend >when I've finished, it isn't copyright violation. But if I buy an etext, >and do exactly the same, it is? No wonder we have more lawyers per capita >than any other country. > >FWIW, the CD-ROM collection of 108 years of National Geographic has >gotten around that problem by using Jpegs of the page, not a text >transcription. They can be printed, but cannot be copied into your >PC. Is this a license restriction or is it physical? I mean, what, exactly, would prevent someone from using DOS to copy one of the JPEG files to disk? Or setting up the printer so that the file it queues is, if not JPEG, something a paint program could read in and save to disk (or, for that matter, setting up a nonexistend PostScript printer and then using Ghostscript to display and save the image)? ###### From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: electronic text opinions? Date: 21 Sep 1999 05:40:47 GMT Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ (USA) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7s75ov$6rg$1@news.asu.edu> References: <6uhfkyx69p.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8YHA3.2537$Tf3.152907@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec2.asu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!CS.Arizona.EDU!math.arizona.edu!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!aztec.asu.edu!chuckb In a previous article, neil@franklin.ch.remove (Neil Franklin) says: >> FWIW, the CD-ROM collection of 108 years of National Geographic has >> gotten around that problem by using Jpegs of the page, not a text >> transcription. They can be printed, but cannot be copied into your >> PC. > >Now that sounds silly. How is such an picture collection to be >searched? How could I with an Tolkien-in-jpgs do "Search balrog & >wings"? Or "Search elves & ears"? :-) Searching the CD is done by article name or author, or word from the subject line. Cumbersome? Yes! Silly? No. Who would have the time and resources to digitize that much material? Jpegs of the mags are probably the only feasable way that this could have been done. --