From: "Öjevind Lång" <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se>
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Subject: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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Sean Crist hath written:

>Öjevind Lång wrote:
>
>>His restless Eye was constantly monitoring what happened in the world. I

<snip>.
>
>As Gollum says, "The Eye doesn't see everything; not yet."

No, but I believe an Eagle (riderless or not) approaching Mordor with the
Ring would definitely been one of the things he observed.

>Even if we grant that Sauron saw the eagles, how would he get word to Orc
>archers in time?

I'm convinced that Sauron, a fallen Maia with awsome powers, had other tools
in his arsenal than just the Nazgûl.

 The eagles fly fast.  They also can fly very high, almost
>certainly out of bowshot from the ground (e.g., when Aragorn, Legolas, and
>Gimli are in Rohan, they twice see an eagle, and the second time, it is
>flying so high that only Legolas' elvish eyes can identify it).

I still believe that the Eye would have seen anything carrying the Ring
better than Legolas.

>Now, as for the Nazgul, this is a more serious problem.  We don't know
>whether their flying mounts are faster than eagles.  It would be something
>of a race situation in any case.

You are right; we don't have enough information. I think it's quite likely
that the Nazgûl could travel faster than the Eagles.

 We also know that the eagles are willing
>to attack the flying Nazgul (as they attempt to do in the last battle), so
>perhaps some of the eagles could hold off the Nazgul long enough for an
>eagle carrying Frodo to make it to Mt. Doom.

I don't mean to be insulting, but this sounds a bit too much like a video
game for my taste.

>>But we know that he did. That's how he nearly disccovered Frodo on Amon
Hen.
>
>As someone else already pointed out, this was a special case.  Frodo was
>wearing the ring and was making use of the seeing powers conferred by Amon
>Hen to view Barad-dur.  Sauron felt his gaze.  When Frodo took off the
>Ring, Sauron was apparently no longer able to perceive him.

Yes, but Frodo was a long distance from Mordor at that point - and yet the
Eye perceived him. If the Eye had kept scanning the borders it would
probably have discovered any flying creature carrying the Ring.

<snip>
>
>It's true that the path was kept clear, but I'm aware of nothing in the
>text to suggest that the desert around Mt. Doom was ordinarily inhabited
>even before the war broke out.  There was no discussion of abandoned camps,
>etc.; and no water cisterns which would certainly have been noted.

If the path to the Chambers of Fire was constantly being cleared from lava
by work-teams, as Tolkien says, then they must have had some kind of
dwellings not too far away.

>>>You're assuming, of course, that the entire frontier of Mordor is heavily
>>>patrolled.
>>
>>According to Gandalf, it was, before the great attack on the West.
>
>What quote are you referring to?  I'm not aware that he says anywhere that
>all of the mountains around Mordor ever had large standing patrols.

Well, Gandalf calls Sauron a "wise fool" for emptying Mordor of troops
instead of guarding all entrances to his country. There were not many
entrances anyway, which is way Frodo made the desperate decision to enter by
the Pass of Cirith Ungol. Furtermore, there is the statement (by Tolkien)
that the Morannon and other fortresses were originally not built to keep
people out of Mordor - they were built by the Dúnedain to keep the evil
creatures in Mordor locked up. Later, Mordor used them primarly for the same
purpose - to contain the inhabitants so that they couldn't escape. (Would-be
runaways would include the slaves that tilled he fields by the inland sea of
Nûrnen. There are also indications [see the conversation between Gorbag and
Shagrat] that many Orcs would gladly have deserted Sauron's service if given
a reasonable chance of success.) Apparently very few such fortifications
were needed to seal up Modor, insuring that nobody got in or out depending
on one's priorities.

>>But the Eagles had to get *into* Mordor unseen, which I think was
>>impossible.
>
>Even if they were seen, the only thing that could catch up with them in the
>fast, desparate flight would be the flying Nazgul, and I answered this
>concern above.

And I don't accepte that the Nazgûl were the only weapons against invading
Eagles hat sauron adat his disposal.

Öjevind

"An Injun has moved to the neighbourhood. Name of Darth Maul. I don't know
what tribe he's from; I don't recognize his paint."

(From "The Diary of a Redneck Jedi")

######

From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 6 Sep 1999 19:31:43 GMT
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In article <o3SA3.4452$K33.8042@nntpserver.swip.net>,
Öjevind Lång <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se> wrote:

>I'm convinced that Sauron, a fallen Maia with awsome powers, had other tools
>in his arsenal than just the Nazgûl.

Tolkien doesn't tell us of them.  When I say that this is a hole in the
plot, I mean that Tolkien has not placed any specific entity or power in
the story which would prevent the eagles from flying into Mordor.

Certainly, given what we know of Sauron's character, it would not be hard
to add to the story to give Sauron some additional power to prevent the
eagles from flying in.  My point is that Tolkien didn't add this something.

>I still believe that the Eye would have seen anything carrying the Ring
>better than Legolas.

You're simply stating an offhand opinion without giving it support from the
text.

>You are right; we don't have enough information. I think it's quite likely
>that the Nazgûl could travel faster than the Eagles.

Same problem.

Actually, I can think of a counter-argument here.  Orcs are said to have
been bred by Morgoth in mockery of elves; trolls were bred in mockery of
Ents, etc.  Cf. Treebeard's comment about trolls being mighty strong, but
not as strong as the Ents.  It would be consistent with Tolkien's general
scheme if the Nazgul's flying mounts had been bred in mockery of the
eagles- and if the same pattern holds as for the Ents/trolls and
elves/orcs, we'd expect the eagles to be better and faster.

> We also know that the eagles are willing
>>to attack the flying Nazgul (as they attempt to do in the last battle), so
>>perhaps some of the eagles could hold off the Nazgul long enough for an
>>eagle carrying Frodo to make it to Mt. Doom.
>
>I don't mean to be insulting, but this sounds a bit too much like a video
>game for my taste.

That's not a story-internal argument, of course.  Even if this isn't as
good a story (and I freely concede that it isn't), the question is whether
the eagles might have counter-attacked the Nazgul.  The answer is certainly
yes, since they started to do just that during the last battle before the
Black Gate.

It's not a question of taste.  The question is, given the abilities that
the various entities in Middle-Earth are know to possess, could the eagles
have flown Frodo to Mt. Doom?  My argument is that, at worst, this is no
more risky than going into Mordor on foot.

>Yes, but Frodo was a long distance from Mordor at that point - and yet the
>Eye perceived him. If the Eye had kept scanning the borders it would
>probably have discovered any flying creature carrying the Ring.

I think you've missed my point.  Frodo was uniquely visible to Sauron on
Amon Hen because 1) he was wearing the Ring, and 2) Sauron felt his gaze.
These would not have been true if an eagle were flying Frodo into Mordor.
Sauron didn't see Frodo in Mordor until Frodo put on the Ring.

>If the path to the Chambers of Fire was constantly being cleared from lava
>by work-teams, as Tolkien says, then they must have had some kind of
>dwellings not too far away.

He doesn't say how often these repairs take place.  It might have been
years between repairs, for all we know.  There's no indication that there
had recently been repair crews stationed in the area in, say, the year
prior to the destruction of the Ring.

>>>>You're assuming, of course, that the entire frontier of Mordor is heavily
>>>>patrolled.
>>>
>>>According to Gandalf, it was, before the great attack on the West.
>>
>>What quote are you referring to?  I'm not aware that he says anywhere that
>>all of the mountains around Mordor ever had large standing patrols.
>
>Well, Gandalf calls Sauron a "wise fool" for emptying Mordor of troops
>instead of guarding all entrances to his country. There were not many
>entrances anyway, which is way Frodo made the desperate decision to enter by
>the Pass of Cirith Ungol. Furtermore, there is the statement (by Tolkien)
>that the Morannon and other fortresses were originally not built to keep
>people out of Mordor - they were built by the Dúnedain to keep the evil
>creatures in Mordor locked up. Later, Mordor used them primarly for the same
>purpose - to contain the inhabitants so that they couldn't escape. (Would-be
>runaways would include the slaves that tilled he fields by the inland sea of
>Nûrnen. There are also indications [see the conversation between Gorbag and
>Shagrat] that many Orcs would gladly have deserted Sauron's service if given
>a reasonable chance of success.) Apparently very few such fortifications
>were needed to seal up Modor, insuring that nobody got in or out depending
>on one's priorities.

I agree with all of this.  The point we were discussing is whether there
would have been heavy enough orc patrols on the Ered Lithui for the flight
of an eagle from the north to be noticed.  I don't think there would be,
since the mountains themselves were a secure barrier to land-based attacks.
It appears that your statement "Apparently very few such fortifications
were needed to seal up Mordor" simply supports my point, since Sauron would
not have needed to waste troops patrolling an area whose geography alone
makes it secure.

>And I don't accepte that the Nazgûl were the only weapons against invading
>Eagles hat sauron adat his disposal.

So what were the other weapons?

  \/ __ __    _\_     --Sean Crist  (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
 ---  |  |    \ /     http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/
  _| ,| ,|   -----    
  _| ,| ,|    [_]     
   |  |  |    [_]     

######

From: "RLV" <xxxx.@xxxx.xxx>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 23:27:57 +0200
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Sean Crist escribió en mensaje <7r14qv$2hh$1@netnews.upenn.edu>...
>In article <o3SA3.4452$K33.8042@nntpserver.swip.net>,
>Öjevind Lång <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se> wrote:

>>And I don't accepte that the Nazgûl were the only weapons against invading
>>Eagles hat sauron adat his disposal.
>
>So what were the other weapons?


I know of a big one. Sauron himself.

I believe that Sauron would have detected an Eagle flying into Mordor,
specially if it carried the Ring. The Eye sees many things, and if he
doesn't see a big, powerful flying being going straight to him (with the
Ring for a plus) he's got a vision problem. Of course, this is just an
opinion, but I think it is a reasonable one.

In such case, all Sauron would have to do is to go to Mt. Doom and await for
the Eagle to approach. Again I'm speculating, but I think it is reasonable
and coherent to assume that Sauron would have means to deal personally with
an Eagle.
Then he recovers his Ring, roasts the spoils and has dinner.


            R.L.V.
            ~~#~~
     "Tilde Power!"

######

From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 6 Sep 1999 23:38:46 GMT
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In article <7r1bih$bev$1@diana.bcn.ttd.net>, RLV <xxxx.@xxxx.xxx> wrote:

>I know of a big one. Sauron himself.
>
>I believe that Sauron would have detected an Eagle flying into Mordor,
>specially if it carried the Ring. The Eye sees many things, and if he
>doesn't see a big, powerful flying being going straight to him (with the
>Ring for a plus) he's got a vision problem. Of course, this is just an
>opinion, but I think it is a reasonable one.
>
>In such case, all Sauron would have to do is to go to Mt. Doom and await for
>the Eagle to approach. Again I'm speculating, but I think it is reasonable
>and coherent to assume that Sauron would have means to deal personally with
>an Eagle.
>Then he recovers his Ring, roasts the spoils and has dinner.

Supposing that Sauron does spot an eagle flying toward Mt. Doom.  How is
Sauron going to get there before the eagle?  Sauron can't fly, as far as I
know (otherwise he could have flown out of the wreck of Numenor unharmed,
for example).  

The only way Sauron could get to Mt. Doom first is if he knew about the
plan well in advance.  In another post I sketched a plan which has at least
as much stealth as the plan which was actually used, up to the point where
an eagle makes the final single flight with the Ringbearer from the
northern border of Mordor to Mt. Doom.  At that point, it's no longer a
game of stealth; it's one of speed.

  \/ __ __    _\_     --Sean Crist  (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
 ---  |  |    \ /     http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/
  _| ,| ,|   -----    
  _| ,| ,|    [_]     
   |  |  |    [_]     

######

From: "RLV" <xxxx.@xxxx.xxx>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 01:54:31 +0200
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Sean Crist escribió en mensaje <7r1ja6$a22$1@netnews.upenn.edu>...
>In article <7r1bih$bev$1@diana.bcn.ttd.net>, RLV <xxxx.@xxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>>I know of a big one. Sauron himself.
>>
>>I believe that Sauron would have detected an Eagle flying into Mordor,
>>specially if it carried the Ring. The Eye sees many things, and if he
>>doesn't see a big, powerful flying being going straight to him (with the
>>Ring for a plus) he's got a vision problem. Of course, this is just an
>>opinion, but I think it is a reasonable one.
>>
>>In such case, all Sauron would have to do is to go to Mt. Doom and await
for
>>the Eagle to approach. Again I'm speculating, but I think it is reasonable
>>and coherent to assume that Sauron would have means to deal personally
with
>>an Eagle.
>>Then he recovers his Ring, roasts the spoils and has dinner.
>
>Supposing that Sauron does spot an eagle flying toward Mt. Doom.  How is
>Sauron going to get there before the eagle?  Sauron can't fly, as far as I
>know (otherwise he could have flown out of the wreck of Numenor unharmed,
>for example).
>
>The only way Sauron could get to Mt. Doom first is if he knew about the
>plan well in advance.  In another post I sketched a plan which has at least
>as much stealth as the plan which was actually used, up to the point where
>an eagle makes the final single flight with the Ringbearer from the
>northern border of Mordor to Mt. Doom.  At that point, it's no longer a
>game of stealth; it's one of speed.


Just for the fun of speculation.

- The Eye is likely to detect a flying Eagle from far away. It is not a
physical eye, it's a power of Sauron. It might very well detect the Eagle
from very far.
- The power of detection might be augmented by the presence of the Ring.
- We don't know what speed Sauron is able to achieve. For all we know, he
could be able to fly. I don't know exact distances, but from Barad-dûr to
Mt. Doom there is not so much.
- Possibly Sauron can strike from some distance. How or how much? Who knows,
it's magic. But if Gandalf can, I bet Sauron can even more.

Sorry, I missed your post about the stealthy plan. But it's difficult to
test plans depending on speeds and distances when we have so many unknown
variables. Anyway, it's fun to speculate.


        R.L.V.
        ~~#~~
  "Tilde Power!"

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:31:02 +0200, "Öjevind Lång"
<ojevind.lang@swipnet.se> wrote:

>>As Gollum says, "The Eye doesn't see everything; not yet."
>
>No, but I believe an Eagle (riderless or not) approaching Mordor with the
>Ring would definitely been one of the things he observed.

He'd probably also start thinking about what kind of insane stunt the
Eagle is trying to pull by flying directly into Mordor.  The obvious
explanation would be reconnaissance, which was after all why these
Eagles were sent in the first place.  I'm not sure Sauron would want
to interfere with that; he allowed Denethor to spy on him even though
a simple magical operation (as mentioned in Unfinished Tales) would
prevent it.  Gandalf suspects that he allowed this so that Denethor
could see what Sauron was sending at him.

But he'd probably track it pretty closely anyway, to make sure it
didn't try to subvert his troops or anything, and once he realized it
was heading for Orodruin he'd get suspicious.  And if the Nazgul
figured out what the Eagle was carrying, they'd take it out.

>>Even if we grant that Sauron saw the eagles, how would he get word to Orc
>>archers in time?
>
>I'm convinced that Sauron, a fallen Maia with awsome powers, had other tools
>in his arsenal than just the Nazgûl.

In particular, that cloud of smoke hovering over Mordor would make it
basically impossible for the Eagles to see.  (OTOH, the Nazgul
intercepting the Eagles would be unaffected, because they don't see
the world of light as we do.)

>>Now, as for the Nazgul, this is a more serious problem.  We don't know
>>whether their flying mounts are faster than eagles.  It would be something
>>of a race situation in any case.
>
>You are right; we don't have enough information. I think it's quite likely
>that the Nazgûl could travel faster than the Eagles.

The Nazgul did get to Orodruin before the Eagles, but they had a
little bit of a head start.

>>It's true that the path was kept clear, but I'm aware of nothing in the
>>text to suggest that the desert around Mt. Doom was ordinarily inhabited
>>even before the war broke out.  There was no discussion of abandoned camps,
>>etc.; and no water cisterns which would certainly have been noted.
>
>If the path to the Chambers of Fire was constantly being cleared from lava
>by work-teams, as Tolkien says, then they must have had some kind of
>dwellings not too far away.

This seems strange.  Why would Sauron waste hundreds of Orc-hours
clearing the path to the Chambers of Fire?  What did he need them for?

>>Even if they were seen, the only thing that could catch up with them in the
>>fast, desparate flight would be the flying Nazgul, and I answered this
>>concern above.
>
>And I don't accepte that the Nazgûl were the only weapons against invading
>Eagles hat sauron adat his disposal.

I think this comes from the fact that the Nazgul were the only ones
sent after Frodo when he claimed the Ring in the Chambers of Fire, but
that was a different situation.

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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On 6 Sep 1999 23:38:46 GMT, kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
wrote:

>Supposing that Sauron does spot an eagle flying toward Mt. Doom.  How is
>Sauron going to get there before the eagle?  Sauron can't fly, as far as I
>know (otherwise he could have flown out of the wreck of Numenor unharmed,
>for example).  

First of all, he *can* fly.  He flies away after Lúthien releases him,
though the injuries he sustained in the destruction of Númenor might
keep him from doing it again.  (The reason he didn't fly out of
Númenor before it was destroyed is unknown, but it's likely that he
didn't know that the Valar would react so badly to being invaded.)

>The only way Sauron could get to Mt. Doom first is if he knew about the
>plan well in advance.  In another post I sketched a plan which has at least
>as much stealth as the plan which was actually used, up to the point where
>an eagle makes the final single flight with the Ringbearer from the
>northern border of Mordor to Mt. Doom.  At that point, it's no longer a
>game of stealth; it's one of speed.

As has been demonstrated, even if the Eagles flew at 300 mph, it would
take them twelve minutes to get from the border to Mt. Doom.  Sauron
was in Barad-dur, which was close enough that his servants built a
bridge directly from the tower to the Sammath Naur for his
convenience.  There are people who can run almost two miles in that
much time; Sauron would presumably be faster.

######

From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 7 Sep 1999 03:45:48 GMT
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In article <7r1kni$l8j$1@diana.bcn.ttd.net>, RLV <xxxx.@xxxx.xxx> wrote:

>Just for the fun of speculation.
>
>- The Eye is likely to detect a flying Eagle from far away. It is not a
>physical eye, it's a power of Sauron. It might very well detect the Eagle
>from very far.
>- The power of detection might be augmented by the presence of the Ring.

The plan I outlined is one where the Ringbearer travels down the Anduin by
boat and goes across the Brown Lands on foot, to rendezvous with the eagles
at some prearranged time and place immediately north of the Ered Lithui.
The eagles would not be carrying the Ring until they pick up the Ringbearer
at the very last moment.

>- We don't know what speed Sauron is able to achieve. For all we know, he
>could be able to fly. I don't know exact distances, but from Barad-dûr to
>Mt. Doom there is not so much.

It's about 50 miles, by the map.

There is no indication that Sauron (in his current incarnation in LotR)
can fly.

>- Possibly Sauron can strike from some distance. How or how much? Who knows,
>it's magic. But if Gandalf can, I bet Sauron can even more.

When does Gandalf strike with magic at a distance of 50 miles?

  \/ __ __    _\_     --Sean Crist  (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
 ---  |  |    \ /     http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/
  _| ,| ,|   -----    
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######

From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 7 Sep 1999 03:49:50 GMT
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In article <37d471ac.425956@news.pc-intouch.com>,
Mark Wells <mark@pc-intouch.com> wrote:

>But he'd probably track it pretty closely anyway, to make sure it
>didn't try to subvert his troops or anything, and once he realized it
>was heading for Orodruin he'd get suspicious.  And if the Nazgul
>figured out what the Eagle was carrying, they'd take it out.

That's assuming that the Nazgul can outfly the eagles, and that the eagles
don't attack the Nazgul as they did in the last battle.

>In particular, that cloud of smoke hovering over Mordor would make it
>basically impossible for the Eagles to see.

That's assuming that the eagles flew in on one of the few days when this
was going on.  Even then, it wasn't entirely dark; it was like a dim
twilight.  Eagles are said to have exceptionally sharp eyesight.

>This seems strange.  Why would Sauron waste hundreds of Orc-hours
>clearing the path to the Chambers of Fire?  What did he need them for?

I've wondered that also; it did seem a bit fortuitous that the path was
there for Sam and Frodo.  Why did Sauron need to get to Orodruin,
considering that he wasn't manufacturing more rings of power?

  \/ __ __    _\_     --Sean Crist  (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
 ---  |  |    \ /     http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/
  _| ,| ,|   -----    
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######

From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 7 Sep 1999 04:35:37 GMT
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In article <37d478e6.2275712@news.pc-intouch.com>,
Mark Wells <mark@pc-intouch.com> wrote:
>
>First of all, he *can* fly.  He flies away after Lúthien releases him,
>though the injuries he sustained in the destruction of Númenor might
>keep him from doing it again.  (The reason he didn't fly out of
>Númenor before it was destroyed is unknown, but it's likely that he
>didn't know that the Valar would react so badly to being invaded.)

He was able to able to fly in the First Age by changing himself into a bat.
It's explicitly stated that he was stripped of his ability to change form
when Numenor was destroyed; this is why is was no longer able to put on the
fair guise by which he had earlier tricked the Elves and the Numenorians.

>As has been demonstrated, even if the Eagles flew at 300 mph, it would
>take them twelve minutes to get from the border to Mt. Doom.  Sauron
>was in Barad-dur, which was close enough that his servants built a
>bridge directly from the tower to the Sammath Naur for his
>convenience.  There are people who can run almost two miles in that
>much time; Sauron would presumably be faster.

This description of the geography is incorrect.  There was a bridge across
a chasm which was the entrance to Barad-dur, but the bridge did not stretch
the entire 50 miles from Barad-dur to Mt. Doom.  There was a _road_ built
to Sammath Naur.

Judging from the map, it's about 50 miles from Barad-dur to Mt. Doom.  Even
if we generously assume that it would take a full hour for the eagles to
make the flight (and mind you, this is a shorter flight than the one where
the eagles rescued Frodo and Sam), your hypothetical runner would have to
run roughly a mile a minute to get to Mt. Doom at the same time as the
eagles.

  \/ __ __    _\_     --Sean Crist  (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
 ---  |  |    \ /     http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/
  _| ,| ,|   -----    
  _| ,| ,|    [_]     
   |  |  |    [_]     

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
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Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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On 7 Sep 1999 04:35:37 GMT, kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
wrote:

>>First of all, he *can* fly.  He flies away after Lúthien releases him,
>>though the injuries he sustained in the destruction of Númenor might
>>keep him from doing it again.  (The reason he didn't fly out of
>>Númenor before it was destroyed is unknown, but it's likely that he
>>didn't know that the Valar would react so badly to being invaded.)
>
>He was able to able to fly in the First Age by changing himself into a bat.
>It's explicitly stated that he was stripped of his ability to change form
>when Numenor was destroyed; this is why is was no longer able to put on the
>fair guise by which he had earlier tricked the Elves and the Numenorians.

Not quite.  What's explicitly stated is that he was no longer able to
put on a fair form.

His body was completely destroyed in the fall of Númenor, and he had
to return to Barad-dur as a ghost.  It took him several thousand years
to collect his thoughts to the point that he could construct a body.
But he's a Maia.  He doesn't have a 'natural' physical form, so why
did he build a hideous misshapen form instead of a fair one?

What this sounds like is that he had recovered enough to rebuild a
body, but he didn't have precise control over what it would look like.
(In the First Age, he had very precise control.  He changed shape
three times within a few minutes when he fought Lúthien.)  So he might
not have been able to assume a form capable of flight, but again, he's
a Maia.  We don't know that he wouldn't be able to fly, and it would
be a mistake to say that he's incapable of flight when he actually did
it at least once.

>This description of the geography is incorrect.  There was a bridge across
>a chasm which was the entrance to Barad-dur, but the bridge did not stretch
>the entire 50 miles from Barad-dur to Mt. Doom.  There was a _road_ built
>to Sammath Naur.
>
>Judging from the map, it's about 50 miles from Barad-dur to Mt. Doom.  Even
>if we generously assume that it would take a full hour for the eagles to
>make the flight (and mind you, this is a shorter flight than the one where
>the eagles rescued Frodo and Sam), your hypothetical runner would have to
>run roughly a mile a minute to get to Mt. Doom at the same time as the
>eagles.

A mile a minute, for 50 miles.  That's beyond the limits of the human
body.  It's a good thing my hypothetical runner doesn't have a human
body.

Tolkien described a scenario once in which the Nazgul arrived at the
Sammath Naur before Frodo destroyed the Ring.  He said that they would
be unwilling to attack him, because he was holding the Ring, so they
would most likely try to get him away from the fire and stall him as
long as possible, to give Sauron time to arrive and take the Ring from
him.

Now, would this have been feasible if the Nazgul would have to stall
Frodo for several days while Sauron walked 50 miles to the Sammath
Naur?

######

From: RLV <rlv6@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <7r21pc$5h9$1@netnews.upenn.edu>,
  kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) wrote:
> In article <7r1kni$l8j$1@diana.bcn.ttd.net>, RLV <xxxx.@xxxx.xxx>
wrote:
>
> >Just for the fun of speculation.
> >
> >- The Eye is likely to detect a flying Eagle from far away. It is
not a
> >physical eye, it's a power of Sauron. It might very well detect the
Eagle
> >from very far.
> >- The power of detection might be augmented by the presence of the
Ring.
>
> The plan I outlined is one where the Ringbearer travels down the
Anduin by
> boat and goes across the Brown Lands on foot, to rendezvous with the
eagles
> at some prearranged time and place immediately north of the Ered
Lithui.
> The eagles would not be carrying the Ring until they pick up the
Ringbearer
> at the very last moment.

Aha. It saves the worst part, but still exposes the Ringbearer to a
long trip.

> >- We don't know what speed Sauron is able to achieve. For all we
know, he
> >could be able to fly. I don't know exact distances, but from Barad-
dûr to
> >Mt. Doom there is not so much.
>
> It's about 50 miles, by the map.
>
> There is no indication that Sauron (in his current incarnation in
LotR)
> can fly.

Neither to the contrary. We know nothing of Sauron's physical abilities.
Even so, he can have a ready to go flying beast. Or maybe he can run
real fast. Or he can teleport. There is little internal evidence about
Sauron's powers or limitation.

> >- Possibly Sauron can strike from some distance. How or how much?
Who knows,
> >it's magic. But if Gandalf can, I bet Sauron can even more.
>
> When does Gandalf strike with magic at a distance of 50 miles?

Nay, just from some short distance. But maybe Sauron can. He is more
powerful, and he is at home, with lots of nasty gadgets available.
"Mouth, bring me that eagle-seeking morgul-blade arrow and the medium-
distance AA crossbow. Good boy."
Or he can have some magic that allows him to strike at a medium
distance (1 mile? whatever) and another that allows him to get fast to
Mt. Doom.

Of course, one can imagine one scenario in which a set of reasonable
powers and limitations allows your plan to have a decent chance of
success. But one can also imagine another scenario in which another set
of reasonable powers and limitations make your plan unfeasible.
We have no hard info on the matter. Tolkien choose not to use your plan
(for literary reasons, obvioulsy), so we can assume that there are
unknown internal reasons that make the Eagles plan unfeasible, just as
easily as we could imagine unknown internal reasons that make your
Eagle plan workable. Nothing existing in the book forbids any of those
interpretations.


        R.L.V.
        ~~#~~
    "Tilde Power!"




Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

######

From: Kristian Damm Jensen <kristian-Damm.Jensen@REMOVEcapgemini.dk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 13:38:33 +0200
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Mark Wells wrote:

<snip>

> His body was completely destroyed in the fall of Númenor, and he had
> to return to Barad-dur as a ghost.  It took him several thousand years
> to collect his thoughts to the point that he could construct a body.

<snip>So the body that was killed by Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur was a
wraith-form?

It took only 22 years from the downfall of Numenor to the final overtrowing of
Sauron at the end of the second age.

Sauron attacks Gondor 10 years after the downfall. I assume that he had a bodily
form at that point.

--
Kristian Damm Jensen
kristian-damm.jensen@capgemini.dk

######

From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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I always had another alternate route in mind.  During Elrond's council, they
discount taking the Ring to the Havens and shipping it off to the Undying
Lands.  Mostly it appears they do not believe the Valar will accept the Ring.
Secondarily, they think such a mission would be too dangerous.  I don't see
how.  They knew the Ringwraith's were unhorsed and would take time to recoup. 
Send the Ringbearer to the Havens with a strong guard of Noldorin Amanyar
warriors and Rangers.  Ship Frodo et all down to Pelargir or Dol Amroth or some
other southern Gondorian town  and enter Mordor through  the back door.

This sort of leads me to another question. Why were the Southrons entering
Mordor via Ithilien and  Morannon?  Why not go directly through the south
western gap in the mountains surrounding Mordor?


Russ

######

From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <%l9B3.87$Gh6.267@nntpserver.swip.net>, "Öjevind Lång"
<ojevind.lang@swipnet.se> writes:

>>I always had another alternate route in mind.  During Elrond's council,
>they
>>discount taking the Ring to the Havens and shipping it off to the Undying
>>Lands.  Mostly it appears they do not believe the Valar will accept the
>Ring.
>>Secondarily, they think such a mission would be too dangerous.  I don't see
>>how.
>
>Gandalf (I think) declares that the Valar will not accept the Ring, that it
>is for the people of Middle-earth to deal with. He also dismisses the
>suggestion to throw the Ring into the sea because sooner or later it may get
>washed up on the shores of Middle-earth again, and their task is not to
>achieve just a temporary solution of the problem. They must bring this
>menace to an end once and for all.
>

I understand that part.  It was the second part - being too dangerous that I
didn't get. 

It would seem to me that the Free People had the advantage on the sea. Ship the
damn thing down to Dol Amroth and walk it into mordor from there.  Walking it
south from Imladris was not wise IMO.  They had to worry about evil forces in
Dol Guldur and Moria.  They knew Saruman was a traitor.  They knew Mordor
forces were all over the area since Boromir told them they had taken the
Gondorian redoubts on the eastern bank of the Anduin in Osgiliath.  Quite
frankly, it seems insane to me that they thought the Ring could be walked into
Mordor from the north.  It was sheer fate (and probably the hand of Illuvatar)
that allowed Frodo to even get into Mordor, never mind all the way to Mt Doom.

The shipping method had a great fail safe built in.  If, for example, the elven
fleet was attacked by some Corsairs and were losing, the Ring could just be
tossed into the deeps where it would  at least be lost to Sauron.


Russ

######

From: "Öjevind Lång" <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se>
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Sean Crist hath written:

>Öjevind Lång <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
>>I'm convinced that Sauron, a fallen Maia with awsome powers, had other
tools
>>in his arsenal than just the Nazgûl.
>
>Tolkien doesn't tell us of them.  When I say that this is a hole in the
>plot, I mean that Tolkien has not placed any specific entity or power in
>the story which would prevent the eagles from flying into Mordor.

He doesn't have to make any express statement to that effect. If Tolkien
lets Gandalf and the other Wise not even consider using the Eagles, that is
presumably because they know it wouldn't work. In the absence of any
evidence to the contrary, this is the reasonable interpretation.

>Certainly, given what we know of Sauron's character, it would not be hard
>to add to the story to give Sauron some additional power to prevent the
>eagles from flying in.  My point is that Tolkien didn't add this something.

See above.

>>I still believe that the Eye would have seen anything carrying the Ring
>>better than Legolas.
>
>You're simply stating an offhand opinion without giving it support from the
>text.

See above. The burden of proof rests on you, not on me. I just accept the
author's choice not to use the Eagles because there is nothing in the text
that proves him wrong.

>>You are right; we don't have enough information. I think it's quite likely
>>that the Nazgûl could travel faster than the Eagles.
>
<snip>
>not as strong as the Ents.  It would be consistent with Tolkien's general
>scheme if the Nazgul's flying mounts had been bred in mockery of the
>eagles- and if the same pattern holds as for the Ents/trolls and
>elves/orcs, we'd expect the eagles to be better and faster.

This is pure speculation. You don't know that the Nazgûls mounts were breed
n mockery of Eagles. In fact, the only one of their winged mounts we are
introduced to is some kind of pterodactyl, and it is described as a
monstrosity out of the distant past, not as a ruined Eagle. Its flying speed
is not given.

<Snip the "fighting Eagles" argument. You have no proof that they could have
been enlisted for a death mission of that kind, apart from other
considerations>

>I think you've missed my point.  Frodo was uniquely visible to Sauron on
>Amon Hen because 1) he was wearing the Ring, and 2) Sauron felt his gaze.
>These would not have been true if an eagle were flying Frodo into Mordor.
>Sauron didn't see Frodo in Mordor until Frodo put on the Ring.

That is one more thing we can't know.

>>If the path to the Chambers of Fire was constantly being cleared from lava
>>by work-teams, as Tolkien says, then they must have had some kind of
>>dwellings not too far away.
>
>He doesn't say how often these repairs take place.  It might have been
>years between repairs, for all we know.

Again, you choose to believe something without any evidence. Tolkien states
that the road was "constantly" cleared by work-teams, which implies
something rather more common than intervening periods of years. But we just
don't know. Still, does it really seem reasonable to you that he would
normally have left his workshop completely unguarded?

 There's no indication that there
>had recently been repair crews stationed in the area in, say, the year
>prior to the destruction of the Ring.

No indication one way or the other.

<snip>
>
>I agree with all of this.  The point we were discussing is whether there
>would have been heavy enough orc patrols on the Ered Lithui for the flight
>of an eagle from the north to be noticed.  I don't think there would be,
>since the mountains themselves were a secure barrier to land-based attacks.

Yes, well, I really don't believe in the "stealth Eagles" theory. Probably
there were lookouts or patrols all along the mountain range. But again, we
don't know.

<snip>

>>And I don't accepte that the Nazgûl were the only weapons against invading
>>Eagles hat sauron adat his disposal.
>
>So what were the other weapons?


The sky is the limit! We are talking about a fallen Maia, a mighty
sorcerer-king with enormous powers.

Öjevind

######

From: "Öjevind Lång" <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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Mark Wells hath written:

>On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:31:02 +0200, "Öjevind Lång" wrote:
>
<snip>

>>If the path to the Chambers of Fire was constantly being cleared from lava
>>by work-teams, as Tolkien says, then they must have had some kind of
>>dwellings not too far away.
>
>This seems strange.  Why would Sauron waste hundreds of Orc-hours
>clearing the path to the Chambers of Fire?  What did he need them for?


Heh. Good question...Perhaps so he could walk up the road at ease, as
befitted his rank as a Dark Lord?

Öjevind

######

From: "Öjevind Lång" <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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McREsq hath written:

>I always had another alternate route in mind.  During Elrond's council,
they
>discount taking the Ring to the Havens and shipping it off to the Undying
>Lands.  Mostly it appears they do not believe the Valar will accept the
Ring.
>Secondarily, they think such a mission would be too dangerous.  I don't see
>how.

Gandalf (I think) declares that the Valar will not accept the Ring, that it
is for the people of Middle-earth to deal with. He also dismisses the
suggestion to throw the Ring into the sea because sooner or later it may get
washed up on the shores of Middle-earth again, and their task is not to
achieve just a temporary solution of the problem. They must bring this
menace to an end once and for all.

Öjevind

######

From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 7 Sep 1999 21:09:12 GMT
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In article <7r2qj3$8un$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, RLV  <rlv6@my-deja.com> wrote:

>> There is no indication that Sauron (in his current incarnation in
>LotR)
>> can fly.
>
>Neither to the contrary. We know nothing of Sauron's physical abilities.
>Even so, he can have a ready to go flying beast. Or maybe he can run
>real fast. Or he can teleport. There is little internal evidence about
>Sauron's powers or limitation.

[...]

>Nay, just from some short distance. But maybe Sauron can. He is more
>powerful, and he is at home, with lots of nasty gadgets available.
>"Mouth, bring me that eagle-seeking morgul-blade arrow and the medium-
>distance AA crossbow. Good boy."
>Or he can have some magic that allows him to strike at a medium
>distance (1 mile? whatever) and another that allows him to get fast to
>Mt. Doom.

The problems with these various solutions you suggest is that there is
nothing in the story to support the view that Sauron had such abilities.
Tolkien could have added such things, but the point is, he didn't.

I'm not asking for what fan fiction we can produce to prevent the eagles
from flying Frodo to Mt. Doom; I'm asking what there is in Tolkien's Middle
Earth to prevent it.  My claim is that there isn't anything.

>Of course, one can imagine one scenario in which a set of reasonable
>powers and limitations allows your plan to have a decent chance of
>success. But one can also imagine another scenario in which another set
>of reasonable powers and limitations make your plan unfeasible.
>We have no hard info on the matter. Tolkien choose not to use your plan
>(for literary reasons, obvioulsy), so we can assume that there are
>unknown internal reasons that make the Eagles plan unfeasible, just as
>easily as we could imagine unknown internal reasons that make your
>Eagle plan workable. Nothing existing in the book forbids any of those
>interpretations.

I think that all of the assumptions I'm making in my plan for getting the
eagles into Mordor can be supported by positive evidence in the texts.  Not
so for unknown weapons or abilities which Sauron might have had.

  \/ __ __    _\_     --Sean Crist  (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
 ---  |  |    \ /     http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/
  _| ,| ,|   -----    
  _| ,| ,|    [_]     
   |  |  |    [_]     

######

From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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Mark Wells <mark@pc-intouch.com> wrote in message
news:37d471ac.425956@news.pc-intouch.com...

> This seems strange.  Why would Sauron waste hundreds of
> Orc-hours clearing the path to the Chambers of Fire?
> What did he need them for?

It was his primary forge, not just for the Ring but for all
his work - and Sauron was originally of the people of Aule,
skill in crafting items of power was one of his great
talents.

######

From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 7 Sep 1999 21:23:01 GMT
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In article <37d4b6d5.18133016@news.pc-intouch.com>,
Mark Wells <mark@pc-intouch.com> wrote:
>On 7 Sep 1999 04:35:37 GMT, kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
>wrote:

>Not quite.  What's explicitly stated is that he was no longer able to
>put on a fair form.

Okay; I checked Akallabeth, and you're right about this.

Let me argue it this way.  We know that the Sauron of the Third Age didn't
have all the powers that he did in previous ages.  For example, he couldn't
put on a fair form; he had lost the part of his strength that had passed
into the Ring, etc.  So the question is, can the Sauron of the Third Age
change form as he could in the First Age?  There's no indication that he
can.

And, please, don't somebody say "There's no indication that he can't."  Go
read up on Occam's Razor if you're tempted to say this.

>What this sounds like is that he had recovered enough to rebuild a
>body, but he didn't have precise control over what it would look like.
>(In the First Age, he had very precise control.  He changed shape
>three times within a few minutes when he fought Lúthien.)  So he might
>not have been able to assume a form capable of flight, but again, he's
>a Maia.  We don't know that he wouldn't be able to fly, and it would
>be a mistake to say that he's incapable of flight when he actually did
>it at least once.

But we know that his powers are greatly reduced in the Third Age.

>A mile a minute, for 50 miles.  That's beyond the limits of the human
>body.  It's a good thing my hypothetical runner doesn't have a human
>body.

But even if Sauron jumped on a flying mount, he couldn't do better than the
Nazgul.  I've gone into detail elsewhere about how the flying Nazgul don't
necessarily rule out the scenario I describe.

>Tolkien described a scenario once in which the Nazgul arrived at the
>Sammath Naur before Frodo destroyed the Ring.  He said that they would
>be unwilling to attack him, because he was holding the Ring, so they
>would most likely try to get him away from the fire and stall him as
>long as possible, to give Sauron time to arrive and take the Ring from
>him.
>
>Now, would this have been feasible if the Nazgul would have to stall
>Frodo for several days while Sauron walked 50 miles to the Sammath
>Naur?

I recall this also.  Tolkien said that the Nazgul would feign obedience to
Frodo, but would know who the real Lord of the Ring is, and would wait for
him to arrive.

Let's say Sauron took a horse.  It wouldn't take more than a few hours for
him to get there, and I'm guessing the Nazgul could placate Frodo for that
long.

  \/ __ __    _\_     --Sean Crist  (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
 ---  |  |    \ /     http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/
  _| ,| ,|   -----    
  _| ,| ,|    [_]     
   |  |  |    [_]     

######

From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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Sean Crist <kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:7r21pc$5h9$1@netnews.upenn.edu...

> When does Gandalf strike with magic at a distance of 50
> miles?

When he struggles with Sauron to rescue Frodo... Frodo was
on Amon Hen, Sauron in Barad-dur, and Gandalf near Moria.
Frodo had the Seat of Seeing, Sauron a Palantir... but
Gandalf was working without props.

######

From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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Sean Crist <kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:7r3uto$pbb$1@netnews.upenn.edu...

> I'm not asking for what fan fiction we can produce to
> prevent the eagles from flying Frodo to Mt. Doom

Ah, well... we aren't looking for what fan fiction can be
produced to ALLOW them to do so.  Doesn't say anywhere in
the text that they could... pure fiction to suggest that it
was possible in that case.  :)

You accept logical assumptions for how Shadowfax got back
to Rohan (he ran) despite the fact that this does not
appear in the text at all... it is as much 'fan fiction' as
all the arguments you discount against the Eagles flying to
Mount Doom.

There are reasonable explanations for why it would not have
worked.  Just as much as there are reasonable explanations
for a thousand other things which are not detailed in the
story.

######

From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 7 Sep 1999 22:44:03 GMT
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In article <ON8B3.74$Gh6.249@nntpserver.swip.net>,
Öjevind Lång <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se> wrote:
>Sean Crist hath written:

>>Tolkien doesn't tell us of them.  When I say that this is a hole in the
>>plot, I mean that Tolkien has not placed any specific entity or power in
>>the story which would prevent the eagles from flying into Mordor.
>
>He doesn't have to make any express statement to that effect. If Tolkien
>lets Gandalf and the other Wise not even consider using the Eagles, that is
>presumably because they know it wouldn't work. In the absence of any
>evidence to the contrary, this is the reasonable interpretation.

I don't agree with the standard of evidence which you are assuming.  I am
going with Occam's Razor (variously stated as "It is vain to do with more
what one can do with less", "Entities ought need be multiplied, save by
necessity", "The simpler theory is the better one", etc.), which is a
staple of reasoning in the Western philosophical/scientific tradition.

The application of Occam's Razor to this sort of discussion is that
something doesn't exist in Middle-Earth unless Tolkien gives evidence for
it.  Certainly, we can add fan fiction to solve the problem, such as to
make up thoughts and beliefs by the wise which Tolkien doesn't report.  I
wouldn't say that an apparent hole in the plot isn't real, just because we
can imagine other things in Middle-Earth which we aren't told about.

In any case, suppose we grant that it was obvious to the wise that this
plan would fail.  This doesn't mean it wouldn't have been mentioned.  At
the Council of Elrond, various plans are brought up and rejected.  It's not
merely the wise telling the less-wise why the plans won't work; it's
Tolkien telling _us_ why the plans won't work.  But Tolkien doesn't tell us
why the "eagles" plan won't work.  We're not entitled to add to what is
written and assume that there is some good reason why it won't work.  If
Tolkien doesn't give a reason, then it's a hole in the plot.

>>>I still believe that the Eye would have seen anything carrying the Ring
>>>better than Legolas.
>>
>>You're simply stating an offhand opinion without giving it support from the
>>text.
>
>See above. The burden of proof rests on you, not on me. 

We know that Frodo went on foot all the way thru Mordor from Cirith Ungol
to Mt. Doom carrying the Ring without Sauron spotting him; so the mere fact
that something is carrying the Ring doesn't mean that Sauron will
immediately spot it.  The only thing which makes an eagle more visible is
the fact that it's flying.  However, the eagle has the advantage that
there's far less _time_ for Sauron to spot it, while he Ring-carrying Frodo
was on foot in Mordor for many days.

> I just accept the
>author's choice not to use the Eagles because there is nothing in the text
>that proves him wrong.

To the contrary, we know the following:

1) The eagles are physically capable of flying into Mordor even with a
major volcanic eruption going on.

2) The eagles are frequently involved in the struggle against Sauron.

3) It is possible to ask specific favors of the eagles to help in the fight
against Sauron.

Given these facts, it looks patently obvious to me that the eagles could
have done it.  To fix the problem, Tolkien would have needed to add
something else to the story.  But he didn't add this something else.

>This is pure speculation. You don't know that the Nazgûls mounts were breed
>n mockery of Eagles. In fact, the only one of their winged mounts we are
>introduced to is some kind of pterodactyl, and it is described as a
>monstrosity out of the distant past, not as a ruined Eagle. Its flying speed
>is not given.

All right; so if we reject my speculation, then what we're left with is
having to say that we don't know how the eagles and Nazgul compare in
speed.  Even if the Nazgul were faster, there are several other conditions
which would have to be met for the Nazgul to foil the plot (e.g. Sauron or
the Nazgul noticing in time, eagles unable to hold off the attack, etc.)

><Snip the "fighting Eagles" argument. You have no proof that they could have
>been enlisted for a death mission of that kind, apart from other
>considerations>

To the contrary, we specifically are told that 1) it is possible under at
least some circumstances to ask the eagles to help in the fight against
Sauron, and 2) the eagles are willing to attack the Nazgul, since they do
so without anyone even asking them during the last battle before the Black
Gate.

>>I think you've missed my point.  Frodo was uniquely visible to Sauron on
>>Amon Hen because 1) he was wearing the Ring, and 2) Sauron felt his gaze.
>>These would not have been true if an eagle were flying Frodo into Mordor.
>>Sauron didn't see Frodo in Mordor until Frodo put on the Ring.
>
>That is one more thing we can't know.

What is it that we can't know?

We know that you're much less visible to Sauron and the Nazgul if you're
not wearing the Ring.  Frodo was wearing the Ring when he was almost
spotted on Amon Hen; we wouldn't have been wearing it when the eagles flew
him in.  In the actual story, Frodo was in Mordor for many days with the
Ring without Sauron noticing him.

>>He doesn't say how often these repairs take place.  It might have been
>>years between repairs, for all we know.
>
>Again, you choose to believe something without any evidence. 

I said "for all we know", indicating that we don't know this.  It is a guess.

>Tolkien states
>that the road was "constantly" cleared by work-teams, which implies
>something rather more common than intervening periods of years. But we just
>don't know. Still, does it really seem reasonable to you that he would
>normally have left his workshop completely unguarded?

The actual quote (which doesn't include the word "constantly") is:

"Often blocked or destroyed by the tumults of the Mountain's furnaces,
always that road was repaired and cleared again by the labours of countless
orcs."

The question was whether there would have been orcs stationed around
Mt. Doom who could have shot arrows at the eagles when they attempted to
land.  What we do know is that there were orcs there sometimes; but not, at
least, during the assault on Mordor by the West.  We don't know whether
there would have been orcs there if the assault hadn't been going on.

I guess I'd bring up two points: 

1) In the plan I'm describing, there is still the possibility of
distracting Sauron and the Nazgul, e.g. by an assault of the sort which
actually happened.  In this case, the orcs would presumably be called
elsewhere.

2) It's not clear that orcs working on the road would have bows and arrows
handy, particularly since they're in the heart of Mordor guarded by
mountains and fortresses.  They'd presumably have work tools in their
hands, not bows and arrows.  The taskmasters would probably have whips, but
it's not clear why they'd have bows and arrow at hand.

>>I agree with all of this.  The point we were discussing is whether there
>>would have been heavy enough orc patrols on the Ered Lithui for the flight
>>of an eagle from the north to be noticed.  I don't think there would be,
>>since the mountains themselves were a secure barrier to land-based attacks.
>
>Yes, well, I really don't believe in the "stealth Eagles" theory. Probably
>there were lookouts or patrols all along the mountain range. But again, we
>don't know.

What do you mean by "stealth eagles"?

In any case, we know that there is no way into Mordor besides Cirith Gorgor
and Cirith Ungol- not without going hundreds of miles out of the way.  Even
someone as skilled at climbing and sneaking as Gollum wasn't able to get
over the mountains any other way.  Why would Sauron waste substantial
orc-power patrolling a border considered to be impregnable?

>>So what were the other weapons?
>
>The sky is the limit! We are talking about a fallen Maia, a mighty
>sorcerer-king with enormous powers.

Tolkien doesn't tell us of any powers which Sauron could have used to foil
an eagle flight into Mordor other than the flying Nazgul, and perhaps
causing Mt. Doom to erupt.

I'm not saying that this plan isn't risky.  What I'm saying is that when
you weigh all the risks which Frodo did in fact encounter, the eagles plan
is attractive enough that it is very surprising that it wasn't considered
within the story.

I know there's a strong gut reaction against any claim that there is any
hole in the plot in LotR.  When someone first suggested the "eagles" plan
to me back in 1982 or so, my first reaction was to try to come up with a
dozen reasons why it wouldn't work.  But I immediately realized that the
rational response was to admit that there is a real problem here, and that
Tolkien doesn't do what he needs to do to fix that problem.

I think that Tolkien either didn't notice the problem, or else he knew of
it but deliberately stayed silent about it so as not to draw attention to
it, since there is no easy fix.

  \/ __ __    _\_     --Sean Crist  (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
 ---  |  |    \ /     http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/
  _| ,| ,|   -----    
  _| ,| ,|    [_]     
   |  |  |    [_]     

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy
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On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 13:38:33 +0200, Kristian Damm Jensen
<kristian-Damm.Jensen@REMOVEcapgemini.dk> wrote:

>
>
>Mark Wells wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> His body was completely destroyed in the fall of Númenor, and he had
>> to return to Barad-dur as a ghost.  It took him several thousand years
>> to collect his thoughts to the point that he could construct a body.
>
><snip>So the body that was killed by Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur was a
>wraith-form?
>
>It took only 22 years from the downfall of Numenor to the final overtrowing of
>Sauron at the end of the second age.
>
>Sauron attacks Gondor 10 years after the downfall. I assume that he had a bodily
>form at that point.

Sorry, my mistake.  His body was destroyed in the fall of Númenor, but
he wasn't so emotionally invested in it that he couldn't build a new
one, (though he still wasn't powerful enough to precisely control what
it would look like).  Then Gil-galad and Elendil killed him again, and
*then* he waited thousands of years until he could get to roughly the
state he was in before Gil-galad and Elendil killed him.  Presumably
it would take him a few more millenia to get back to his
pre-Fall-of-Númenor state.

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <37d60c7b.105608123@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
>On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 13:38:33 +0200, Kristian Damm Jensen
><kristian-Damm.Jensen@REMOVEcapgemini.dk> wrote:
>>Mark Wells wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> His body was completely destroyed in the fall of Númenor, and he had
>>> to return to Barad-dur as a ghost.  It took him several thousand years
>>> to collect his thoughts to the point that he could construct a body.
>>
>><snip>So the body that was killed by Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur was a
>>wraith-form?
>>
>>It took only 22 years from the downfall of Numenor to the final overtrowing of
>>Sauron at the end of the second age.
>>
>>Sauron attacks Gondor 10 years after the downfall. I assume that he had a
>>bodily form at that point.
>
>Sorry, my mistake...

Numenor was destroyed in SA 3319.  Gondor and Arnor were founded in SA 
3320 (the same year in which Sauron returned to Mordor).  Sauron was 
overthrown in SA 3441 (which probably coincided with TA 1, but that's 
another long story).


>...His body was destroyed in the fall of Númenor, but
>he wasn't so emotionally invested in it that he couldn't build a new
>one, (though he still wasn't powerful enough to precisely control what
>it would look like).  Then Gil-galad and Elendil killed him again, and
>*then* he waited thousands of years until he could get to roughly the
>state he was in before Gil-galad and Elendil killed him.  Presumably
>it would take him a few more millenia to get back to his
>pre-Fall-of-Númenor state.

Sauron had probably formed a new body by 1050, although Tolkien is not 
clear on what exactly the process was.  But this was about somewhere from 
10 to 1000 times as long a period as he required to form a new body after 
the Downfall of Numenor.

It is questionable whether Sauron could ever have returned to his 
pre-Downfall state-of-mind (if you mean waiting a few thousand years might 
eventually have enabled him to assume a fair appearance again).


--
  \\  //   Worlds of Imagination on the Web      info@xenite.org
   \\//    FREE!  Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org!
   //\\                        [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm]
  //  \\ENITE.org...............................................

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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On 7 Sep 1999 21:23:01 GMT, kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
wrote:

>In article <37d4b6d5.18133016@news.pc-intouch.com>,
>Mark Wells <mark@pc-intouch.com> wrote:
>>On 7 Sep 1999 04:35:37 GMT, kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
>>wrote:
>
>>Not quite.  What's explicitly stated is that he was no longer able to
>>put on a fair form.
>
>Okay; I checked Akallabeth, and you're right about this.
>
>Let me argue it this way.  We know that the Sauron of the Third Age didn't
>have all the powers that he did in previous ages.  For example, he couldn't
>put on a fair form; he had lost the part of his strength that had passed
>into the Ring, etc.  So the question is, can the Sauron of the Third Age
>change form as he could in the First Age?  There's no indication that he
>can.

The indication that he can is that there's no reason that he would
have to take any particular form as opposed to any other particular
form.

As a Maia, he didn't have a 'real' body.  His body wasn't made of
physical matter; it was made of sheer willpower simulating physical
matter.  So if he could take the form of a Dark Lord (whatever that
is; that's how Morgoth's form was described), why can't he take the
form of a Dark Lord with wings?

I would *guess* that he hadn't regained enough power yet to control
exactly what his form would look like, which was why he couldn't take
on a fair form.  For example, he might not have been able to produce a
reasonable simulation of a human or Elven face like he did in the
Second Age.  (As a similar case, I submit Odo from Star Trek.  He's a
shapeshifter, and he spends most of his time in something resembling a
human or Bajoran body, but he hasn't learned to control his form
precisely enough to produce realistic facial features and hair.  Other
shapeshifters from the same race that have more practice can do faces
and hair and even emulate specific individuals.)

>>A mile a minute, for 50 miles.  That's beyond the limits of the human
>>body.  It's a good thing my hypothetical runner doesn't have a human
>>body.
>
>But even if Sauron jumped on a flying mount, he couldn't do better than the
>Nazgul.  I've gone into detail elsewhere about how the flying Nazgul don't
>necessarily rule out the scenario I describe.

The flying Nazgul were coming from the other direction, and would have
to overtake the Eagles over a greater distance.  Sauron was closer
than the Eagles would have been, so he could just get there first and
wait for them to arrive.

######

From: "RLV" <xxxx.@xxxx.xxx>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 07:54:30 +0200
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Sean Crist escribió en mensaje <7r3uto$pbb$1@netnews.upenn.edu>...
>In article <7r2qj3$8un$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, RLV  <rlv6@my-deja.com> wrote:

>The problems with these various solutions you suggest is that there is
>nothing in the story to support the view that Sauron had such abilities.
>Tolkien could have added such things, but the point is, he didn't.


Yet, if the council had taken the Eagle plan, She-lob would have not
appeared in the tale. Does it mean that She-lob was not there? In a sense,
it does. But it wouldn't have said anything against She-lob being there, so,
she could be. In fact, we know she was.

IOW, Tolkien doesn't describe all the features of ME that prevent any
possible variation of the plan to bring the Ring to Mordor. He just
describes that which actually happens in the history. Otherwise, he would
have had to go on a lengthy and ugly description of all the defensive tricks
in Mordor. LoTR is a novel, not a manual for a game. It doesn't need to
cover all the possibilities; it just has to deal with the plot as it
develops, not as it could have gone.

>I'm not asking for what fan fiction we can produce to prevent the eagles
>from flying Frodo to Mt. Doom; I'm asking what there is in Tolkien's Middle
>Earth to prevent it.  My claim is that there isn't anything.


Explicit, there is not much. As there is nothing explicit that prevents them
to take the underground train to Mt. Doom station.
Again, the book doesn't cover all there is in ME, neither it needs to.

>>Of course, one can imagine one scenario in which a set of reasonable
>>powers and limitations allows your plan to have a decent chance of
>>success. But one can also imagine another scenario in which another set
>>of reasonable powers and limitations make your plan unfeasible.
>>We have no hard info on the matter. Tolkien choose not to use your plan
>>(for literary reasons, obvioulsy), so we can assume that there are
>>unknown internal reasons that make the Eagles plan unfeasible, just as
>>easily as we could imagine unknown internal reasons that make your
>>Eagle plan workable. Nothing existing in the book forbids any of those
>>interpretations.
>
>I think that all of the assumptions I'm making in my plan for getting the
>eagles into Mordor can be supported by positive evidence in the texts.  Not
>so for unknown weapons or abilities which Sauron might have had.


I'd rather say that your assumptions are reasonable, but not explicitly
supported.
Anyway, if they had tried this they would have found what Sauron was able
to. After all, for what is shown in LoTR everybody is afraid of Sauron
himself, but there is not much reason to. Sauron doesn't show much personal
power, he's just the big peeper. Yet, we all are assuming he could be able
to do some nasty things, and the characters act in consequence.

My point, there is not much text in LoTR preventing an air raid into Mordor,
because it is not necessary to describe it for the plot.


            R.L.V.
            ~~#~~
      "Tilde Power!"
(this is written by a bot; I'm doing profitable things elsewhere)

######

From: "RLV" <xxxx.@xxxx.xxx>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:08:22 +0200
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Sean Crist escribió en mensaje <7r44fj$5lm$1@netnews.upenn.edu>...
>In article <ON8B3.74$Gh6.249@nntpserver.swip.net>,
>Öjevind Lång <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se> wrote:
>>Sean Crist hath written:

<several snips all the way>

>  But Tolkien doesn't tell us
>why the "eagles" plan won't work.  We're not entitled to add to what is
>written and assume that there is some good reason why it won't work.  If
>Tolkien doesn't give a reason, then it's a hole in the plot.


There are infinite holes in the plot. You can imagine any way of entering
Mordor. The book covers just a few. The book doesn't say that there are no
invisible balloons ready to carry Ring-bearers to Mt. Doom. The book doesn't
say if Mordor could be entered to participate in the annual used-mule
market.

The book only explains what happens in the plot, not all the reasons why all
the other things don't happen.


>>The sky is the limit! We are talking about a fallen Maia, a mighty
>>sorcerer-king with enormous powers.
>
>Tolkien doesn't tell us of any powers which Sauron could have used to foil
>an eagle flight into Mordor other than the flying Nazgul, and perhaps
>causing Mt. Doom to erupt.

Then why is people afraid of Sauron? Any half-decent orc could have gone to
Barad-dûr and killed him with his trusty broadsword. For all that is shown
in LoTR, Sauron just peeps and scares people.


>I know there's a strong gut reaction against any claim that there is any
>hole in the plot in LotR.  When someone first suggested the "eagles" plan
>to me back in 1982 or so, my first reaction was to try to come up with a
>dozen reasons why it wouldn't work.  But I immediately realized that the
>rational response was to admit that there is a real problem here, and that
>Tolkien doesn't do what he needs to do to fix that problem.
>
>I think that Tolkien either didn't notice the problem, or else he knew of
>it but deliberately stayed silent about it so as not to draw attention to
>it, since there is no easy fix.


You want an easy fix?

"The mountains around Mordor are guarded by the Schklummbürk, fed by the
power of Sauron. They prevent anything flying in without Sauron's approval."

Here, you have it fixed. If JRRT had wanted to fix the problem, he would
have had to think (how much it took me?)... about 3 seconds.

If JRRT didn't fix that "hole" is because he didn't think it was necessary.
LoTR is a novel, not the manual of a game.


               R.L.V.
              ~~#~~
         "Tilde Power"
       (enough of not being!)

######

From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 8 Sep 1999 15:03:20 GMT
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In article <7r44fj$5lm$1@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Sean Crist <kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
>All right; so if we reject my speculation, then what we're left with is
>having to say that we don't know how the eagles and Nazgul compare in
>speed.

Well, we have this:

  "I would bear you," answered Gwaihir, "whither you will, even were
  you made of stone."

  "Then come, and let your brother go with us, and some other of your
  folk who is most swift! For we have need of speed greater than any
  wind, outmatching the wings of the Nazgûl."

  "The North Wind blows, but we shall outfly it," said Gwaihir. And
  he lifted up Gandalf and sped away south...

To me, this suggests that at least the swiftest Eagles *can* fly
faster than the Nazgûl, but that it's a close thing.

>I know there's a strong gut reaction against any claim that there is any
>hole in the plot in LotR.  When someone first suggested the "eagles" plan
>to me back in 1982 or so, my first reaction was to try to come up with a
>dozen reasons why it wouldn't work.  But I immediately realized that the
>rational response was to admit that there is a real problem here, and that
>Tolkien doesn't do what he needs to do to fix that problem.
>
>I think that Tolkien either didn't notice the problem, or else he knew of
>it but deliberately stayed silent about it so as not to draw attention to
>it, since there is no easy fix.

My guess is that it simply never occurred to him, since as far as I
know there is absolutely no reference to the idea in any of the HoME
materials or letters. It doesn't feel to me like a serious deficiency
-- in fact, this idea could easily have killed the whole plot :-). I
actually suspect that, at that stage of things (the Council of Elrond
timeframe), the Eagles would have refused, but this is pure
speculation.
-- 
-------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)-------------------------
  "Never try to outstubborn a cat." -- R. A. Heinlein

######

From: Solinas <jsolinas@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 14:59:40 -0400
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Mark Wells wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 13:38:33 +0200, Kristian Damm Jensen
> <kristian-Damm.Jensen@REMOVEcapgemini.dk> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Mark Wells wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >> His body was completely destroyed in the fall of Númenor, and he had
> >> to return to Barad-dur as a ghost.  It took him several thousand years
> >> to collect his thoughts to the point that he could construct a body.
> >
> ><snip>So the body that was killed by Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur was a
> >wraith-form?
> >
> >It took only 22 years from the downfall of Numenor to the final overtrowing of
> >Sauron at the end of the second age.
> >
> >Sauron attacks Gondor 10 years after the downfall. I assume that he had a bodily
> >form at that point.
>
> Sorry, my mistake.  His body was destroyed in the fall of Númenor, but
> he wasn't so emotionally invested in it that he couldn't build a new
> one, (though he still wasn't powerful enough to precisely control what
> it would look like).  Then Gil-galad and Elendil killed him again, and
> *then* he waited thousands of years until he could get to roughly the
> state he was in before Gil-galad and Elendil killed him.

   What do I have to do to drum this into your heads? Huh?
   Gil-Galad and Elendil did not kill Sauron. They were killed
   by him, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand.

   Lúthien Tinuviel/Ermanna the Annoyed Jedi Knight

   I never loved you, anyway!

######

From: Solinas <jsolinas@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 15:09:51 -0400
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Mark Wells wrote:

> As a similar case, I submit Odo from Star Trek.  He's a
> shapeshifter, and he spends most of his time in something resembling a
> human or Bajoran body, but he hasn't learned to control his form
> precisely enough to produce realistic facial features and hair.  Other
> shapeshifters from the same race that have more practice can do faces
> and hair and even emulate specific individuals.

   Their name is Changelings. Most likely the reason they
   usually appeared like Odo was they didn't want to make
   him feel bad. Anyway, he could mimick anything else very
   well.

   Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna the Trekker

######

From: Solinas <jsolinas@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 15:18:20 -0400
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Kristian Damm Jensen wrote:

> Mark Wells wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > His body was completely destroyed in the fall of Númenor, and he had
> > to return to Barad-dur as a ghost.  It took him several thousand years
> > to collect his thoughts to the point that he could construct a body.
>
> <snip>So the body that was killed by Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur was a
> wraith-form?

   No. It was NOT killed. HE LOST A FINGER! CAN'T YOU GUYS READ?
   Sorry, sorry, I'm very annoyed. <Ermanna runs>

> It took only 22 years from the downfall of Numenor to the final overtrowing of
> Sauron at the end of the second age.
>
> Sauron attacks Gondor 10 years after the downfall. I assume that he had a bodily
> form at that point.

   See above.

> Kristian Damm Jensen

  Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna the Very Annoyed Jedi Knight

  I never loved you, anyway!

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <37D6B217.5A0F5BAA@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote:
>   What do I have to do to drum this into your heads? Huh?
>   Gil-Galad and Elendil did not kill Sauron. They were killed
>   by him, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand.

He was dead by the time Isildur got up the hill-side to whack that little 
finger off.  All evidence indicates that Elendil dealt the death-blow to 
Sauron.


--
  \\  //   Worlds of Imagination on the Web      info@xenite.org
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######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <37D6B676.7174F748@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote:
>Kristian Damm Jensen wrote:
>>
>> <snip>So the body that was killed by Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur was a
>> wraith-form?
>
>   No. It was NOT killed. HE LOST A FINGER! CAN'T YOU GUYS READ?
>   Sorry, sorry, I'm very annoyed. <Ermanna runs>

Don't get TOO annoyed.  Sauron was indeed killed.  He lost the finger after 
he died.


--
  \\  //   Worlds of Imagination on the Web      info@xenite.org
   \\//    FREE!  Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org!
   //\\                        [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm]
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######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <2cCB3.1482$Gh6.1885@nntpserver.swip.net>, "Öjevind Lång" <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se> wrote:
>LOL
>
>Good points, Reub...ahem, Raimundo.

Whatever you do, don't say "Reuben".


--
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   \\//    FREE!  Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org!
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######

From: "Öjevind Lång" <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se>
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RLV hath written:
>
>Sean Crist escribió en mensaje

<snip>

>>  But Tolkien doesn't tell us
>>why the "eagles" plan won't work.  We're not entitled to add to what is
>>written and assume that there is some good reason why it won't work.  If
>>Tolkien doesn't give a reason, then it's a hole in the plot.
>
>
>There are infinite holes in the plot. You can imagine any way of entering
>Mordor. The book covers just a few. The book doesn't say that there are no
>invisible balloons ready to carry Ring-bearers to Mt. Doom. The book
doesn't
>say if Mordor could be entered to participate in the annual used-mule
>market.
>
>The book only explains what happens in the plot, not all the reasons why
all
>the other things don't happen.
>
>
>>>The sky is the limit! We are talking about a fallen Maia, a mighty
>>>sorcerer-king with enormous powers.
>>
>>Tolkien doesn't tell us of any powers which Sauron could have used to foil
>>an eagle flight into Mordor other than the flying Nazgul, and perhaps
>>causing Mt. Doom to erupt.
>
>Then why is people afraid of Sauron? Any half-decent orc could have gone to
>Barad-dûr and killed him with his trusty broadsword. For all that is shown
>in LoTR, Sauron just peeps and scares people.

LOL

Good points, Reub...ahem, Raimundo.

Öjevind

######

From: Ulf Magnusson <Ulf.Magnusson@Zks.Zericsson.Zse>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes:

>In article <37D6B676.7174F748@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote:
>>Kristian Damm Jensen wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>So the body that was killed by Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur was a
>>> wraith-form?
>>
>>   No. It was NOT killed. HE LOST A FINGER! CAN'T YOU GUYS READ?
>>   Sorry, sorry, I'm very annoyed. <Ermanna runs>

>Don't get TOO annoyed.  Sauron was indeed killed.  He lost the finger after 
>he died.


>--
>  \\  //   Worlds of Imagination on the Web      info@xenite.org
>   \\//    FREE!  Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org!
>   //\\                        [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm]
>  //  \\ENITE.org...............................................


I assume you are referring to one of the volumes in 'History of Middle-Earth'
(which I have not read - yet. The fun is still there for me...)
Could you please be more specific, at least about which volume?


/Best Regards, Ulf M.
--
- Ulf Magnusson                            | "God is dead !"	
-                                          |              - Nietzsche
- Karlstad, Sweden                         | "Nietzsche is dead." 
-                                          |              - God

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 00:12:56 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
Martinez) wrote:

>In article <37D6B217.5A0F5BAA@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote:
>>   What do I have to do to drum this into your heads? Huh?
>>   Gil-Galad and Elendil did not kill Sauron. They were killed
>>   by him, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand.
>
>He was dead by the time Isildur got up the hill-side to whack that little 
>finger off.  All evidence indicates that Elendil dealt the death-blow to 
>Sauron.

Or possibly Gil-galad, though some descriptions of the battle seem to
indicate that he was killed first.

But it's pretty clear that Isildur wasn't an active participant in the
battle.  Note that he cut Sauron's finger off with *Elendil's* sword,
not his own.

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 15:09:51 -0400, Solinas <jsolinas@erols.com>
wrote:

>
>
>Mark Wells wrote:
>
>> As a similar case, I submit Odo from Star Trek.  He's a
>> shapeshifter, and he spends most of his time in something resembling a
>> human or Bajoran body, but he hasn't learned to control his form
>> precisely enough to produce realistic facial features and hair.  Other
>> shapeshifters from the same race that have more practice can do faces
>> and hair and even emulate specific individuals.
>
>   Their name is Changelings. Most likely the reason they
>   usually appeared like Odo was they didn't want to make
>   him feel bad. Anyway, he could mimick anything else very
>   well.

That's my point.

The Founders (i.e. the changelings) were generally able to assume any
form, including the form of any specific individual, with such
accuracy that the only practical way to tell the difference was to do
a blood test.  (Though as Ben Sisko's father points out, this isn't a
perfect test either.)

Odo, though, had been isolated from his people for hundreds of years.
He didn't have the benefit of their instruction in how to control his
form, so the best he could do was a rough imitation of a human face
that wouldn't have fooled anyone.

I'm guessing Sauron had a similar problem: he hadn't recovered to the
point that he could emulate a human face accurately.  The best he
could do was a rough imitation of a human face, which most people
found quite horrifying.  Hence he was no longer able to take a fair
shape.

######

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From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
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In article <7r7mas$3vk@newstoo.ericsson.se>, Ulf Magnusson <Ulf.Magnusson@Zks.Zericsson.Zse> wrote:
>Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes:
>
>>In article <37D6B676.7174F748@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote:
>>>Kristian Damm Jensen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>So the body that was killed by Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur was a
>>>> wraith-form?
>>>
>>>   No. It was NOT killed. HE LOST A FINGER! CAN'T YOU GUYS READ?
>>>   Sorry, sorry, I'm very annoyed. <Ermanna runs>
>
>>Don't get TOO annoyed.  Sauron was indeed killed.  He lost the finger after 
>>he died.
>
>I assume you are referring to one of the volumes in 'History of Middle-Earth'
>(which I have not read - yet. The fun is still there for me...)
>Could you please be more specific, at least about which volume?

From "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in THE SILMARILLION:

  Then Gil-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed
  the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid siege to it for seven
  years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and
  bolts of the Enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them.
  There in the valley of Gorgoroth Anarion son of Elendil was
  slain, and many others.  But at the last the siege was so straight
  that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad
  and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil
  broke under him as he fell.  But Sauron also was thrown down,
  and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring
  from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.  Then Sauron
  was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his
  spirit fled far away and his in waste places; and he took no
  visible shape again for many long years.

Some people have used this passage as authority for saying Sauron did not 
die until after Isildur cut the Ring from his finger, but the last sentence 
does not necessarily mean Sauron waited until the Ring was cut from his 
hand to leave his body.

Elrond's account of the final struggle is similar, but less ambiguous:

  'I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host.  I was at
  the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we
  had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of
  Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand.  I beheld the
  last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and
  Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself
  was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the
  hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.'
  (From "The Council of Elrond" in THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING)

From "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" in UNFINISHED TALES:

  'The vengeance of Sauron lives on, though he may be dead,'
  [Isildur] said to Elendur, who stood beside him....

From "The Tale of Years" in Appendix B to THE LORD OF THE RINGS:

  3441  Sauron overthrown by Elendil and Gil-galad, who perish.
        Isildur takes the One Ring.  Sauron passes away and
        the Ringwraiths go into the shadows.  The Second Age ends.

Some people have also used this passage to argue that it was the taking of 
the One Ring which brought about Sauron's death, but it, too, is ambiguous. 
 It does not attribute Sauron's passing (as neither does the other passage 
above) directly to the loss of the One Ring.

In Letter 131, written to the publisher Milton Waldman when he was trying 
to place THE LORD OF THE RINGS with someone other than Allen & Unwin (at 
the time Tolkien felt the LOTR deal would not go through), he wrote:

  The Second Age ends with the LAST ALLIANCE (of Elves and Men), and
  the great siege of Mordor.  It ends with the overthrow of Sauron
  and destruction of the second visible incarnation of evil.  But
  at a cost, and with one disastrous mistake.  Gilgalad and Elendil
  are slain in the act of slaying Sauron.  Isildur, Elendil's son,
  cuts the ring from Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his
  spirit flees into the shadows.  But the evil begins to work.  Isildur
  claims the Ring as his own, as 'the Weregild of his father', and
  refuses to cast it into the Fire nearby.  He marches away, but
  is drowned in the Great River, and the Ring is lost, passing out
  of all knowledge.  But it is not unmade, and the Dark Tower built
  with its aid still stands, empty but not destroyed.  So ends the
  Second Age with the coming of the Numenorean realms and the
  passing of teh last kingship of the High Elves.

Here, at least, Tolkien speaks of Elendil and Gilgalad's slaying of Sauron, 
though again he says that the spirit departs after he mentions Isildur's 
cutting the Ring from Sauron's hand.


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From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq)
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Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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I'm a little unclear as to what "death" means to an incarnate Ainur.  Tolkien
uses the terms "overthrown" or "thrown down" to describe what happens to Sauron
after his battle with Gil-galad (GG to his friends) and Elendil (Ellie to his).
 Anyway, by death, do we mean that his physical body ceased operating?  Was
Sauron's being thrown down akin to Saruman's "death" in the Shire?  There is no
mention of seeing a gaseous cloud rise from Sauron's body as there was for
Saruman.

What clues can we gain from the conflict between Sauron and Luthien and Huan in
the first age?  Luthien knew she could destroy Sauron's body and his spirit
would have to flee in shame back to Melkor.  Sauron apparently avoided bodily
destruction there, but what about Numenor?  His body was destroyed there but
his spirit fled.  

So what are we saying when we say Sauron died in the fight?  At best it was
that physical body stopped working and eventually his spirit would have been
able to reform and create a new body, whether or not the ring was taken.

At the final destruction, it is hinted that Sauron's spirit actually still
surviives but that it is so weakened by the loss of the ring that it will never
be able to reform.

Will Saruman be able to reform?

Russ

######

From: ig25@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig)
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Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote:

>From "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in THE SILMARILLION:

I have some problems with considering that chapter to be canonical,
since it contains a contradiction with LoTR, or at least a gross
oversimplification:

# For Frodo the Halfling, it is said, at the bidding of Mithrandir took
# on himself the burden, and alone with a servant he passed through peril
# and darkness and came at last in Sauron's despite even to Mount Doom;
# and there into the Fire where it was wrought he cast the Great Ring
# of Power, and so at last it was unmade and its evil consumed.
-- 
Thomas Koenig, Thomas.Koenig@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet.
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double
logarithmic diagram.

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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On 10 Sep 1999 19:33:57 GMT, McREsq <mcresq@aol.com> wrote:

>Ok, that's as good an answer as any.  The reason I put "ringmaker" in quotes
>was to allude to the possibility that Saruman perhaps put some of his power
>into a ring to emulate Sauron.  But, you're right, it could be that the power
>of self-reincarnation is reserved for only the Valar and the most powerful of
>the maia.  I got the impression, though, that back in Valinor, Saruman and
>Gandalf were pretty strong - why would they send the second string?

Olorin was, IIRC, identified as one of the most powerful Maiar, along with
Sauron and Melian.

>Also, this just occurred to me: what if Morgoth's Ring and Saruman's Ring acted
>almost as incarnation lifelines or anchors so that by infusing so much of their
>being in a physical thing, it made it easier or possible to reincarnate in ME. 

That's an interesting thought.  Note that Sauron doesn't get killed until
*after* he makes the Ring.  He seemed genuinely afraid when Luthien
threatened him with death.  (Isn't it interesting that she doesn't describe
it as death, but as disincarnation?  Isn't that just the kind of thing we'd
expect her to understand?)  In the Second Age, it doesn't really bother him,
because most of his power is in the Ring anyway.

>While we're Q&Aing...I've also had the impression that the "raiment" Tolkien
>refers to the Valinorean Ainur taking (as well as Morgoth when he first
>returned) was not the same thing as taking on a physical incarnation. 
>Incarnation seems much more than simply taking on a raiment.  Does that seem
>correct or was "raiment" meant to be synonymous for incarnation?

It is synonymous, except in the case of the Istari.

######

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From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <19990909132656.00143.00001729@ngol05.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote:
>I'm a little unclear as to what "death" means to an incarnate Ainur.  Tolkien
>uses the terms "overthrown" or "thrown down" to describe what happens to Sauron
>after his battle with Gil-galad (GG to his friends) and Elendil (Ellie to his).

And "slaying".

> Anyway, by death, do we mean that his physical body ceased operating?  Was
>Sauron's being thrown down akin to Saruman's "death" in the Shire?  There is no
>mention of seeing a gaseous cloud rise from Sauron's body as there was for
>Saruman.

Death to a Self-Incarnate would indeed be the end of bodily function.  The 
spirit is effectively severed from the body (and thus Manwe and Namo 
executed Morgoth).

>What clues can we gain from the conflict between Sauron and Luthien and Huan in
>the first age?  Luthien knew she could destroy Sauron's body and his spirit
>would have to flee in shame back to Melkor.  Sauron apparently avoided bodily
>destruction there, but what about Numenor?  His body was destroyed there but
>his spirit fled.

He did there.

>So what are we saying when we say Sauron died in the fight?  At best it was
>that physical body stopped working and eventually his spirit would have been
>able to reform and create a new body, whether or not the ring was taken.

We are saying that the incarnation formed of Sauron's will perished, died a 
"physical death".

>At the final destruction, it is hinted that Sauron's spirit actually still
>surviives but that it is so weakened by the loss of the ring that it will never
>be able to reform.
>
>Will Saruman be able to reform?

Probably not.


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######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <7r95qr$2tn$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>, ig25@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig) wrote:
>Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote:
>
>>From "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in THE SILMARILLION:
>
>I have some problems with considering that chapter to be canonical,
>since it contains a contradiction with LoTR, or at least a gross
>oversimplification:
>
># For Frodo the Halfling, it is said, at the bidding of Mithrandir took
># on himself the burden, and alone with a servant he passed through peril
># and darkness and came at last in Sauron's despite even to Mount Doom;
># and there into the Fire where it was wrought he cast the Great Ring
># of Power, and so at last it was unmade and its evil consumed.

"it is said" is significant in this passage.  It implies that the essay is 
only recording a tradition and not vouching its accuracy.

However, I provided citations from more than one source.



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From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq)
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Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <7rbj50$26c_034@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
Martinez) writes:

<snip>

>> Anyway, by death, do we mean that his physical body ceased operating?  Was
>>Sauron's being thrown down akin to Saruman's "death" in the Shire?  There is
>no
>>mention of seeing a gaseous cloud rise from Sauron's body as there was for
>>Saruman.
>
>Death to a Self-Incarnate would indeed be the end of bodily function.  The 
>spirit is effectively severed from the body (and thus Manwe and Namo 
>executed Morgoth).

OK. I get from Morgoth's Ring that he had infused the "stuff" of Middle Earth
with his being, power and evil.  So by destroying his incarnate form, he would
not have had enough "juice" left to reform, correct? At least until Ragnorak,
that is.

<snip>

>>So what are we saying when we say Sauron died in the fight?  At best it was
>>that physical body stopped working and eventually his spirit would have been
>>able to reform and create a new body, whether or not the ring was taken.
>
>We are saying that the incarnation formed of Sauron's will perished, died a 
>"physical death".
>
>>At the final destruction, it is hinted that Sauron's spirit actually still
>>surviives but that it is so weakened by the loss of the ring that it will
>never
>>be able to reform.
>>
>>Will Saruman be able to reform?
>
>Probably not.

I wonder why?  Sauron's problem  was that so much of his will and being was
destroyed with the Ring. Morgoth's (if I was correct above) problem is because
so much of his will and being was invested in Middle Earth.  

Unless Saruman "Ringmaker" went along the same path, I don't see why he wound't
be able to reform.  On that note, what about the Balrogs?

Russ

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <19990910144756.20930.00002248@ngol03.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote:
>In article <7rbj50$26c_034@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
>Martinez) writes:
>
><snip>
>
>>> Anyway, by death, do we mean that his physical body ceased operating?  Was
>>>Sauron's being thrown down akin to Saruman's "death" in the Shire?  There is
>>no
>>>mention of seeing a gaseous cloud rise from Sauron's body as there was for
>>>Saruman.
>>
>>Death to a Self-Incarnate would indeed be the end of bodily function.  The 
>>spirit is effectively severed from the body (and thus Manwe and Namo 
>>executed Morgoth).
>
>OK. I get from Morgoth's Ring that he had infused the "stuff" of Middle Earth
>with his being, power and evil.  So by destroying his incarnate form, he would
>not have had enough "juice" left to reform, correct? At least until Ragnorak,
>that is.

That is pretty much how I understand it.  Since Arda was his "ring", he was 
still "in rapport" with that power, but incapable of utilizing it directly, 
as Sauron was incapable of utilizing the Ring directly unless it were in 
his physical possession.  But being "in rapport", Melkor should be able to 
draw enough strength to reform (as Sauron did).  Also, he was in his 
beginning an extremely powerful being, and Tolkien suggests that he should 
eventually swell back up nearly that original strength.

>>>Will Saruman be able to reform?
>>
>>Probably not.
>
>I wonder why?  Sauron's problem  was that so much of his will and being was
>destroyed with the Ring. Morgoth's (if I was correct above) problem is because
>so much of his will and being was invested in Middle Earth.  

First of all, he was weaker than Sauron.  And Sauron is the only Maia we 
know of who ever reformed a body.  Gandalf doesn't count because he was 
sent back (with greater strength and authority) by Iluvatar.

We know Sauron was the stronger of the two because Saruman was not able to 
use the Palantir freely.

So, unless Saruman were more powerful than Sauron, it seems unlikely he 
could form a new body.


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######

From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <7rbk74$26c_046@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
Martinez) writes:

>>I wonder why?  Sauron's problem  was that so much of his will and being was
>>destroyed with the Ring. Morgoth's (if I was correct above) problem is
>because
>>so much of his will and being was invested in Middle Earth.  
>
>First of all, he was weaker than Sauron.  And Sauron is the only Maia we 
>know of who ever reformed a body.  Gandalf doesn't count because he was 
>sent back (with greater strength and authority) by Iluvatar.
>
>We know Sauron was the stronger of the two because Saruman was not able to 
>use the Palantir freely.
>
>So, unless Saruman were more powerful than Sauron, it seems unlikely he 
>could form a new body.
>

Ok, that's as good an answer as any.  The reason I put "ringmaker" in quotes
was to allude to the possibility that Saruman perhaps put some of his power
into a ring to emulate Sauron.  But, you're right, it could be that the power
of self-reincarnation is reserved for only the Valar and the most powerful of
the maia.  I got the impression, though, that back in Valinor, Saruman and
Gandalf were pretty strong - why would they send the second string?

Also, this just occurred to me: what if Morgoth's Ring and Saruman's Ring acted
almost as incarnation lifelines or anchors so that by infusing so much of their
being in a physical thing, it made it easier or possible to reincarnate in ME. 

While we're Q&Aing...I've also had the impression that the "raiment" Tolkien
refers to the Valinorean Ainur taking (as well as Morgoth when he first
returned) was not the same thing as taking on a physical incarnation. 
Incarnation seems much more than simply taking on a raiment.  Does that seem
correct or was "raiment" meant to be synonymous for incarnation?

Putting together the two  thoughts in the two prior paragraphs, assuming
arguendo that Saruman was let back into Aman, he could presumably have assumed
a raiment there, but may or may not have ever been able to truly incarnate
again.

Russ

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <19990910153357.11661.00002101@ngol01.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote:
>Also, this just occurred to me: what if Morgoth's Ring and Saruman's Ring acted
>almost as incarnation lifelines or anchors so that by infusing so much of their
>being in a physical thing, it made it easier or possible to reincarnate in ME. 

Saruman's Ring was presumably made according to the same principles as the 
others, in which case his Ring would have been subject to the One, and 
should have failed when the One failed.  Of cource, Gandalf's dealing with 
Saruman before the end may have reduced Saruman's stature as well.

>While we're Q&Aing...I've also had the impression that the "raiment" Tolkien
>refers to the Valinorean Ainur taking (as well as Morgoth when he first
>returned) was not the same thing as taking on a physical incarnation. 
>Incarnation seems much more than simply taking on a raiment.  Does that seem
>correct or was "raiment" meant to be synonymous for incarnation?

He called them the "Self-Incarnated", thus implying no distincion between 
their "physical raiment" and the bodies of living creatures other than that 
the raiment was self-composed.


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######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net
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In article <slrn7tj18j.3cr.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com wrote:
>On 10 Sep 1999 19:33:57 GMT, McREsq <mcresq@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Also, this just occurred to me: what if Morgoth's Ring and Saruman's Ring
>>acted almost as incarnation lifelines or anchors so that by infusing so
>>much of their being in a physical thing, it made it easier or possible to
>>reincarnate in ME.
> 
>
>That's an interesting thought.  Note that Sauron doesn't get killed until
>*after* he makes the Ring.  He seemed genuinely afraid when Luthien
>threatened him with death.  (Isn't it interesting that she doesn't describe
>it as death, but as disincarnation?  Isn't that just the kind of thing we'd
>expect her to understand?)  In the Second Age, it doesn't really bother him,
>because most of his power is in the Ring anyway.

The Sauron-Huan encounter, however, is preserved from an earlier tradition 
which had no knowledge of Rings of Power.  Tolkien may eventually have seen 
a weakness or inconsistency there.


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######

From: gdempsey@teleport.com (Gryffyd)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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On Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:08:22 +0200, in rec.arts.books.tolkien, "RLV"
<xxxx.@xxxx.xxx> wrote:


>There are infinite holes in the plot. You can imagine any way of entering
>Mordor. The book covers just a few. The book doesn't say that there are no
>invisible balloons ready to carry Ring-bearers to Mt. Doom. The book doesn't
>say if Mordor could be entered to participate in the annual used-mule
>market.

Never mind the Eagles.  Gandalf was a fire-cracker artisan; he could
have bundled the Ring into one of those and shot it over the mountains
and into Orodruin.

See _Jane's Heat-seaking Missiles of Middle-Earth_


-- 
xGSV Mother of All Ships
-------------------------------------
Gryffyd

######

From: Solinas <jsolinas@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:24:47 -0400
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Mark Wells wrote:

> On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 15:09:51 -0400, Solinas <jsolinas@erols.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Mark Wells wrote:
> >
> >> As a similar case, I submit Odo from Star Trek.  He's a
> >> shapeshifter, and he spends most of his time in something resembling a
> >> human or Bajoran body, but he hasn't learned to control his form
> >> precisely enough to produce realistic facial features and hair.  Other
> >> shapeshifters from the same race that have more practice can do faces
> >> and hair and even emulate specific individuals.
> >
> >   Their name is Changelings. Most likely the reason they
> >   usually appeared like Odo was they didn't want to make
> >   him feel bad. Anyway, he could mimick anything else very
> >   well.
>
> That's my point.
>
> The Founders (i.e. the changelings) were generally able to assume any
> form, including the form of any specific individual, with such
> accuracy that the only practical way to tell the difference was to do
> a blood test.  (Though as Ben Sisko's father points out, this isn't a
> perfect test either.)

   GRANDPA JOE!

> Odo, though, had been isolated from his people for hundreds of years.

   He's not THAT old. If he was, how could the Bajoran who
   raised him help out with the Baby Changeling?

   Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna the Jedi Knight

######

From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
news:7rhlku$1pk_034@Org.xenite.org...

> Conrad Dunkerson <conrad@planet.net> wrote:

>> When he struggles with Sauron to rescue Frodo... Frodo
>> was on Amon Hen, Sauron in Barad-dur, and Gandalf near
>> Moria.
 >> Frodo had the Seat of Seeing, Sauron a Palantir... but
>> Gandalf was working without props.

> Geeze, Louise!

> Nowhere does Tolkien say that Sauron used a Palantir to
> struggle with Gandalf when Frodo was on Amon Hen!

Quite true, but in point of fact... neither did I.  I said
that Sauron HAD a palantir because I knew that someone
might claim the long range battle of wills was created
entirely by props... and I wanted to show that while that
>might< be true for Frodo and Sauron, Gandalf did not have
a magical device handy which could readily explain this
long range ability.

As to the Eagles... I agree with both Michael and Sean that
it was a battle of wills, but would suggest that being the
>loser< of a battle of wills is not a good thing.  If
Sauron could enter such a struggle (with or without the
palantir he had) at the kind of range Gandalf could then I
suggest an Eagle flying into Mordor could have been in
serious trouble.  Does the victor gain control of the will
of the loser?  Gandalf succeeded in saving Frodo, but
apparently blacked out from the strain... is it reasonable
to suspect that a losing Eagle would black out (while
airborne)?  The question at the heart of the issue was
whether Sauron could DO anything to an Eagle that far away,
and I am suggesting that there is evidence that he indeed
could have.

######

From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 13 Sep 1999 01:12:37 GMT
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In article <7r4eka$nb5$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
Conrad Dunkerson <conrad@planet.net> wrote:
>Sean Crist <kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote in message
>news:7r21pc$5h9$1@netnews.upenn.edu...
>
>> When does Gandalf strike with magic at a distance of 50
>> miles?
>
>When he struggles with Sauron to rescue Frodo... Frodo was
>on Amon Hen, Sauron in Barad-dur, and Gandalf near Moria.
>Frodo had the Seat of Seeing, Sauron a Palantir... but
>Gandalf was working without props.

Agreed.  I'm not sure this counts as "striking", however; there's nothing
to suggest that either Gandalf or Sauron were able to magically shoot a
flying being such as an eagle out of the air at a distance of 50 miles.
The struggle on Amon Hen strikes me as a very different type of encounter;
it was a battle of wills.

  \/ __ __    _\_     --Sean Crist  (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
 ---  |  |    \ /     http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/
  _| ,| ,|   -----    
  _| ,| ,|    [_]     
   |  |  |    [_]     

######

From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 13 Sep 1999 01:34:45 GMT
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In article <7r4ue6$ed7$1@diana.bcn.ttd.net>, RLV <xxxx.@xxxx.xxx> wrote:

>There are infinite holes in the plot. You can imagine any way of entering
>Mordor. The book covers just a few. The book doesn't say that there are no
>invisible balloons ready to carry Ring-bearers to Mt. Doom. 

If Tolkien had made use of invisible balloons as a plot device at some
point, then yes, there would need to be some explanation why it couldn't be
used in other cases.

This is the major problem that any fantasy writer faces: it's extremely
hard to create the right balance among the entities in your world.  When
someone is in deep trouble, it's convenient to create some device to get
them out- but the problem is, now this solution in principle exists for all
the other situations as well, unless you give some good reason why it can't
be used elsewhere.

>You want an easy fix?
>
>"The mountains around Mordor are guarded by the Schklummbürk, fed by the
>power of Sauron. They prevent anything flying in without Sauron's approval."
>
>Here, you have it fixed. If JRRT had wanted to fix the problem, he would
>have had to think (how much it took me?)... about 3 seconds.

It would at least plug the hole.  Of course, now you've put Schklummbürk
into Middle-Earth, so we need some explanation of where it came from, why
Sauron doesn't use it in other cases, etc.  

It's extremely difficult to get everything to harmonize just right, and
even Tolkien doesn't do it perfectly.  I'm thinking of the footnote in
"Unfinished Tales" where Christopher Tolkien points out the hole in the
plot where the water-fearing Nazgul could not have gotten to the Shire
without crossing the bridgeless Greyflood; and Tolkien himself admits that
the idea of the Nazgul fearing water was "difficult to maintain".

>If JRRT didn't fix that "hole" is because he didn't think it was necessary.
>LoTR is a novel, not the manual of a game.

But the eagles exist, and we know that they're physically capable of the
flight to Mt. Doom.  Once Tolkien introduces this convenient device, he has
to explain why it can't be used in other cases which would be convenient
for the characters but bad for the story.

  \/ __ __    _\_     --Sean Crist  (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
 ---  |  |    \ /     http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/
  _| ,| ,|   -----    
  _| ,| ,|    [_]     
   |  |  |    [_]     

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <7rhj25$o68$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) wrote:
>In article <7r4eka$nb5$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
>Conrad Dunkerson <conrad@planet.net> wrote:
>>Sean Crist <kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote in message
>>news:7r21pc$5h9$1@netnews.upenn.edu...
>>
>>> When does Gandalf strike with magic at a distance of 50
>>> miles?
>>
>>When he struggles with Sauron to rescue Frodo... Frodo was
>>on Amon Hen, Sauron in Barad-dur, and Gandalf near Moria.
>>Frodo had the Seat of Seeing, Sauron a Palantir... but
>>Gandalf was working without props.

Geeze, Louise!

Nowhere does Tolkien say that Sauron used a Palantir to struggle with 
Gandalf when Frodo was on Amon Hen!

>Agreed.  I'm not sure this counts as "striking", however; there's nothing
>to suggest that either Gandalf or Sauron were able to magically shoot a
>flying being such as an eagle out of the air at a distance of 50 miles.
>The struggle on Amon Hen strikes me as a very different type of encounter;
>it was a battle of wills.

You're correct.



--
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######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Lancelot appearing sideways <sahill@rainbow.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) writes:

> Judging from the map, it's about 50 miles from Barad-dur to Mt. Doom.  Even
> if we generously assume that it would take a full hour for the eagles to
> make the flight (and mind you, this is a shorter flight than the one where
> the eagles rescued Frodo and Sam), your hypothetical runner would have to
> run roughly a mile a minute to get to Mt. Doom at the same time as the
> eagles.

What if Sauron had a horse?  Could a horse get there in time?  Or
perhaps the trip to Mt Doom was mostly downhill, and he had a little
cart to ride in?  Or maybe he was an avid cyclist in his spare time?

(I was serious to start out with, honest!)  ;)

/
:@-) Scott
\

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Lancelot appearing sideways <sahill@rainbow.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) writes:

> I understand that part.  It was the second part - being too dangerous that I
> didn't get. 
> 
> It would seem to me that the Free People had the advantage on the sea. Ship the
> damn thing down to Dol Amroth and walk it into mordor from there.  Walking it
> south from Imladris was not wise IMO.  They had to worry about evil forces in
> Dol Guldur and Moria.  They knew Saruman was a traitor.  They knew Mordor
> forces were all over the area since Boromir told them they had taken the
> Gondorian redoubts on the eastern bank of the Anduin in Osgiliath.  Quite
> frankly, it seems insane to me that they thought the Ring could be walked into
> Mordor from the north.  It was sheer fate (and probably the hand of Illuvatar)
> that allowed Frodo to even get into Mordor, never mind all the way to Mt Doom.

This is not a good-enough answer, but I recall Elrond saying, about
the sea route, "That is what he will expect.  Too long have we fled
along the route to the Sea."  (OK, that's just a paraphrase.)  The
road to the Sea was dangerous, and probably very closely watched.
Part of the charm of the plan they used was that it was totally
unexpected, which is a great boon when facing an enemy much more
powerful than anyone on your side.
 
> The shipping method had a great fail safe built in.  If, for example, the elven
> fleet was attacked by some Corsairs and were losing, the Ring could just be
> tossed into the deeps where it would  at least be lost to Sauron.

...until the next Age.  And Sauron had to be stopped; he was causing
enough damage to the world even without the ring.  He would probably
have controlled a lot of land and peoples by the time he found the
ring again (and he would have), and then there truly would have been
no chance to defeat him.


/
:@-) Scott
\

######

From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 13 Sep 1999 23:04:33 GMT
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In article <7rhrbc$341$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
Conrad Dunkerson <conrad@planet.net> wrote:

>As to the Eagles... I agree with both Michael and Sean that
>it was a battle of wills, but would suggest that being the
>>loser< of a battle of wills is not a good thing.  If
>Sauron could enter such a struggle (with or without the
>palantir he had) at the kind of range Gandalf could then I
>suggest an Eagle flying into Mordor could have been in
>serious trouble.  Does the victor gain control of the will
>of the loser?  Gandalf succeeded in saving Frodo, but
>apparently blacked out from the strain... is it reasonable
>to suspect that a losing Eagle would black out (while
>airborne)?  The question at the heart of the issue was
>whether Sauron could DO anything to an Eagle that far away,
>and I am suggesting that there is evidence that he indeed
>could have.

You bring up some good points.  

There's several unknowns here.  One is that we don't know exactly what it
is that Sauron was trying to do when Frodo was wearing the Ring on Amon
Hen.  My interpretation had always been that Sauron could tell that someone
was looking at him, but couldn't tell right off exactly who or how, and his
immediate goal was to find out.  If Sauron had known right off that the
viewer was making use of the seeing powers of Amon Hen, Sauron presumably
would not have kept looking this way and that, trying to nail the viewer
down.  It's as tho Sauron didn't quite have a fix on the viewer.  For this
reason, I think that Sauron didn't know that the viewer was the Ringbearer,
and that Gandalf was trying to prevent him from finding this out.

Others have argued that what Sauron was doing was trying to take over
Frodo's will.  This also seems to be a possible interpretation, and I can't
come up with any good arguments for accepting one of these interpretations
over the other.

Even if we do accept that Sauron could have taken over Frodo's will at this
moment, it's not immediately obvious that he could have done so to an
eagle.  I think we could make a good case that Frodo was uniquely
susceptible to Sauron because he was wearing the Ring.  An eagle carrying
the Ringbearer wouldn't have been wearing it (cf. how unexpectedly light
Frodo + Ring are when Sam carries Frodo).

Even when Sauron finally does notice the Ringbearer at Mt. Doom, he isn't
able to take over Frodo's will despite focusing every bit of his power
overwhelmingly on Mt. Doom, as the book describes.  So even if Sauron can
take over someone's will at a distance, it's clear he doesn't always
succeed at it.  Eagles are pretty stern creatures and could probably resist
this sort of attack-of-will by Sauron if anyone can.

  \/ __ __    _\_     --Sean Crist  (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
 ---  |  |    \ /     http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/
  _| ,| ,|   -----    
  _| ,| ,|    [_]     
   |  |  |    [_]     

######

From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 13 Sep 1999 23:27:56 GMT
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In article <jvqlnaa5zlz.fsf@harper.uchicago.edu>,
Lancelot appearing sideways  <sahill@rainbow.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) writes:
>
>> Judging from the map, it's about 50 miles from Barad-dur to Mt. Doom.  Even
>> if we generously assume that it would take a full hour for the eagles to
>> make the flight (and mind you, this is a shorter flight than the one where
>> the eagles rescued Frodo and Sam), your hypothetical runner would have to
>> run roughly a mile a minute to get to Mt. Doom at the same time as the
>> eagles.
>
>What if Sauron had a horse?  Could a horse get there in time?  Or
>perhaps the trip to Mt Doom was mostly downhill, and he had a little
>cart to ride in?  Or maybe he was an avid cyclist in his spare time?
>
>(I was serious to start out with, honest!)  ;)

I doubt that any horse, not even Shadowfax, can outpace an eagle.

  \/ __ __    _\_     --Sean Crist  (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
 ---  |  |    \ /     http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/
  _| ,| ,|   -----    
  _| ,| ,|    [_]     
   |  |  |    [_]     

######

From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:33:41 -0400
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Sean Crist <kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:7rjvu1$l0u$1@netnews.upenn.edu...

> Even if we do accept that Sauron could have taken over
> Frodo's will at this moment, it's not immediately obvious
> that he could have done so to an eagle.  I think we could
> make a good case that Frodo was uniquely susceptible to
> Sauron because he was wearing the Ring.

True, however note the effect that the Nazgul have of
making the bearer put on the Ring against their Will
(though Frodo later manages to successfully fight this).
Sauron produced a similar effect when he was trying to
reach Frodo on Amon Hen... Frodo's 'verily I come to you'
or whatever it was.  Is it reasonable to suggest that
Sauron could influence the eagle-bound bearer to put on the
Ring... and thus become vulnerable?  Granted, this effect
stopped on Amon Hen when Frodo took off the Ring... but in
that case Sauron did not know where he was, in the Eagle
scenario it would be readily apparent.

> Even when Sauron finally does notice the Ringbearer at
> Mt. Doom, he isn't able to take over Frodo's will despite
> focusing every bit of his power overwhelmingly on Mt.
> Doom, as the book describes.

Good point.  This is very true, but there is no indication
that he tried.  I might guess that he was afraid to attack
lest he drove the silly hobbit into the fire by accident.
Still, we are going further afield into the realm of
speculation.  My central point continues to be that there
ARE reasonable ways of explaining why it wouldn't work...
we casually fill in a thousand other 'plot holes' in the
book, and this one should be no different.

######

From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 14 Sep 1999 03:05:51 GMT
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In article <7rjvu1$l0u$1@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Sean Crist <kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
>There's several unknowns here.  One is that we don't know exactly what it
>is that Sauron was trying to do when Frodo was wearing the Ring on Amon
>Hen.  My interpretation had always been that Sauron could tell that someone
>was looking at him, but couldn't tell right off exactly who or how, and his
>immediate goal was to find out.  If Sauron had known right off that the
>viewer was making use of the seeing powers of Amon Hen, Sauron presumably
>would not have kept looking this way and that, trying to nail the viewer
>down.  It's as tho Sauron didn't quite have a fix on the viewer.  For this
>reason, I think that Sauron didn't know that the viewer was the Ringbearer,
>and that Gandalf was trying to prevent him from finding this out.
>
>Others have argued that what Sauron was doing was trying to take over
>Frodo's will.  This also seems to be a possible interpretation, and I can't
>come up with any good arguments for accepting one of these interpretations
>over the other.

I think it's pretty clear that the interpretation you describe in the
first paragraph is correct. What Sauron sensed, without really knowing
it for certain, was that Frodo was wearing the Ring: hence Gandalf's
urgent message to Frodo to "take it off, fool!" If the Ring is not
being worn, it's pretty clear that Sauron can't sense it, or its
presence in Mordor for three(?) days would have betrayed it to him.


>An eagle carrying
>the Ringbearer wouldn't have been wearing it (cf. how unexpectedly light
>Frodo + Ring are when Sam carries Frodo).

Quite. Whatever may be wrong with the "eagles" strategy, detection of
the Ring (by analogy with the events on Amon Hen) isn't it.
-- 
-------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)-------------------------
  "Climate is what we expect, weather is what we get." -- R. A. Heinlein

######

From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:04:29 -0400
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Robert S. Coren <coren@spdcc.com> wrote in message
news:7rlmqd$2936$1@newsie2.cent.net...

> I don't think so. Frodo's vulnerability at that point
> came from the fact that he was already wearing the Ring
> (and in a highly "visible" place). He had put it on to
> escape from Boromir -- Sauron had nothing to do with it.

I wasn't suggesting that Sauron did.  My point was that the
Nazgul could influence the ringbearer to put on the Ring...
apparently without even knowing where the Ring was (for
example the Witch King pausing while leading out his host
and Frodo's hand moving of its own accord towards the
Ring).  If the Nazgul could do this is it reasonable to
suggest that Sauron could as well?  I think it is... and
that an Eagle flying into Mordor would be just as 'highly
visible' as someone on Amon Hen.

That is, I was not suggesting that Sauron DID influence
Frodo to put on the Ring at Amon Hen but that he COULD have
done so in the hypothetical Eagle situation.  We see a
similar effect ('verily I come to you') when he is
searching for Frodo on Amon Hen.

######

From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 14 Sep 1999 14:41:17 GMT
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In article <7rkjn9$dml$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
Conrad Dunkerson <conrad@planet.net> wrote:
>Sean Crist <kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote in message
>news:7rjvu1$l0u$1@netnews.upenn.edu...
>
>> Even if we do accept that Sauron could have taken over
>> Frodo's will at this moment, it's not immediately obvious
>> that he could have done so to an eagle.  I think we could
>> make a good case that Frodo was uniquely susceptible to
>> Sauron because he was wearing the Ring.
>
>True, however note the effect that the Nazgul have of
>making the bearer put on the Ring against their Will
>(though Frodo later manages to successfully fight this).
>Sauron produced a similar effect when he was trying to
>reach Frodo on Amon Hen... Frodo's 'verily I come to you'
>or whatever it was.  Is it reasonable to suggest that
>Sauron could influence the eagle-bound bearer to put on the
>Ring... and thus become vulnerable?

I don't think so. Frodo's vulnerability at that point came from the
fact that he was already wearing the Ring (and in a highly "visible"
place). He had put it on to escape from Boromir -- Sauron had nothing
to do with it.
-- 
-------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)-------------------------
   "You can't have any fun on antennas -- all anyone ever does is
dish." --BBC

######

From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 14 Sep 1999 17:31:03 GMT
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In article <7rlom2$s33$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
Conrad Dunkerson <conrad@planet.net> wrote:
>Robert S. Coren <coren@spdcc.com> wrote in message
>news:7rlmqd$2936$1@newsie2.cent.net...
>
>> I don't think so. Frodo's vulnerability at that point
>> came from the fact that he was already wearing the Ring
>> (and in a highly "visible" place). He had put it on to
>> escape from Boromir -- Sauron had nothing to do with it.
>
>I wasn't suggesting that Sauron did.  My point was that the
>Nazgul could influence the ringbearer to put on the Ring...
>apparently without even knowing where the Ring was (for
>example the Witch King pausing while leading out his host
>and Frodo's hand moving of its own accord towards the
>Ring).  If the Nazgul could do this is it reasonable to
>suggest that Sauron could as well?  I think it is...

Well, Sauron never did, the whole time Frodo was in Mordor.

>and
>that an Eagle flying into Mordor would be just as 'highly
>visible' as someone on Amon Hen.

But Frodo was only "highly visible" on Amon Hen *because he was
wearing the Ring*. This whole argument is essentially circular.
-- 
-------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)-------------------------
  "Pass a moose through a fine sieve, add 3 beaten egg whites and a
cup of light cream. Stir thoroughly and put into individual
ramekins. Serves 53, more or less." -- Robert Gilbert, _Moose Mousse_

######

From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:33:49 -0400
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Robert S. Coren <coren@spdcc.com> wrote in message
news:7rm0on$2dml$1@newsie2.cent.net...

> Well, Sauron never did, the whole time Frodo was in
> Mordor.

Ummm... quite correct, but ignoring the fact that Sauron
did not know where Frodo WAS during all that time.  Until
the end... when Frodo was already wearing the Ring.

> But Frodo was only "highly visible" on Amon Hen *because
> he was wearing the Ring*.

Quite true.  I am however suggesting that Eagles are ALSO
"highly visible".  Ergo...

> This whole argument is essentially circular.

So it seems.

######

From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
Date: 15 Sep 1999 03:12:07 GMT
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In article <7rmbvk$acv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
Conrad Dunkerson <conrad@planet.net> wrote:
>Robert S. Coren <coren@spdcc.com> wrote in message
>news:7rm0on$2dml$1@newsie2.cent.net...
>
>> Well, Sauron never did, the whole time Frodo was in
>> Mordor.
>
>Ummm... quite correct, but ignoring the fact that Sauron
>did not know where Frodo WAS during all that time.  Until
>the end... when Frodo was already wearing the Ring.

But that's *exactly* the point; Sauron didn't know where Frodo was,
because he wasn't wearing the Ring.

>> But Frodo was only "highly visible" on Amon Hen *because
>> he was wearing the Ring*.
>
>Quite true.  I am however suggesting that Eagles are ALSO
>"highly visible".

...if they're wearing the Ring.
-- 
-------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)-------------------------
	"I often postulate with high structural coherence."
				--Jeffrey William Sandris

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Lancelot appearing sideways <sahill@rainbow.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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Lancelot appearing sideways <sahill@rainbow.uchicago.edu> writes:

> mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) writes:
> 
> > I understand that part.  It was the second part - being too dangerous that I
> > didn't get. 
> > 
> > It would seem to me that the Free People had the advantage on the sea. Ship the
> > damn thing down to Dol Amroth and walk it into mordor from there.  Walking it
> > south from Imladris was not wise IMO.  They had to worry about evil forces in
> > Dol Guldur and Moria.  They knew Saruman was a traitor.  They knew Mordor
> > forces were all over the area since Boromir told them they had taken the
> > Gondorian redoubts on the eastern bank of the Anduin in Osgiliath.  Quite
> > frankly, it seems insane to me that they thought the Ring could be walked into
> > Mordor from the north.  It was sheer fate (and probably the hand of Illuvatar)
> > that allowed Frodo to even get into Mordor, never mind all the way to Mt Doom.
> 
> This is not a good-enough answer, but I recall Elrond saying, about
> the sea route, "That is what he will expect.  Too long have we fled
> along the route to the Sea."  (OK, that's just a paraphrase.)  The
> road to the Sea was dangerous, and probably very closely watched.
> Part of the charm of the plan they used was that it was totally
> unexpected, which is a great boon when facing an enemy much more
> powerful than anyone on your side.

I've found the passage:
	[Galdor said,] "If the return to Iarwain be thought too
	dangerous, then flight to the Sea is now fraught with gravest
	peril.  My heart tells me that Sauron will expect us to take
	the western way, when he learns what has befallen.  He soon
	will...and if he comes, assailing the White Towers and the
	Havens, hereafter the Elves may have no escape from the
	lengthening shadows of Middle-Earth. 

> > The shipping method had a great fail safe built in.  If, for example, the elven
> > fleet was attacked by some Corsairs and were losing, the Ring could just be
> > tossed into the deeps where it would  at least be lost to Sauron.
> 
> ...until the next Age.  And Sauron had to be stopped; he was causing
> enough damage to the world even without the ring.  He would probably
> have controlled a lot of land and peoples by the time he found the
> ring again (and he would have), and then there truly would have been
> no chance to defeat him.

I could quote Gandalf:
	[Glorfindel said,] "in the Sea it would be safe."
	"Not safe for ever," said Gandalf.  "There are many things in
	the deep waters; and seas and lands may change.  And it is not
	our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few
	lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.  We should
	seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to
	make one."

I still like my other argument better, though: Sauron was well on his
way from conquering Middle-Earth even without the ring, and it seems
that destroying the Ring was the only way to defeat him.

I remain,

> 
> /
> :@-) Scott
> \

######

From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq)
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Subject: Re: Defending Mordor (was Re: Poster Profiles)
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In article <jvqemg0xkg1.fsf@harper.uchicago.edu>, Lancelot appearing sideways
<sahill@rainbow.uchicago.edu> writes:

>I've found the passage:
>	[Galdor said,] "If the return to Iarwain be thought too
>	dangerous, then flight to the Sea is now fraught with gravest
>	peril.  My heart tells me that Sauron will expect us to take
>	the western way, when he learns what has befallen.  He soon
>	will...and if he comes, assailing the White Towers and the
>	Havens, hereafter the Elves may have no escape from the
>	lengthening shadows of Middle-Earth. 

Thanks for the quote.  My problem is that it didn'tmake sense to me.  With the
Nazgul unhorsed unclad, what danger was there on the road from Rivendell
westward to the havens?  There's nothing in the vicinity that could take on a
company of Noldor and Dunedain of the North. Sauron could not get his armies up
there in time.  The only thing I see is that a fleet could be sent up from
Unbar to raid the Havens or an shipping heading south along the coast from the
Havens.  How could he get word so fast?  Sauron was not able to get orc forces
into the path of the Ring until after the Fellowship left Lorien.  That was
many months after the "battle" at the ford of bruinen.  In that time, the Ring
could already have been shipped down to Dol Amroth, Pelargir or Edellhond. 

>> > The shipping method had a great fail safe built in.  If, for example, the
>elven
>> > fleet was attacked by some Corsairs and were losing, the Ring could just
>be
>> > tossed into the deeps where it would  at least be lost to Sauron.
>> 
>> ...until the next Age.  And Sauron had to be stopped; he was causing
>> enough damage to the world even without the ring.  He would probably
>> have controlled a lot of land and peoples by the time he found the
>> ring again (and he would have), and then there truly would have been
>> no chance to defeat him.
>
>I could quote Gandalf:
>	[Glorfindel said,] "in the Sea it would be safe."
>	"Not safe for ever," said Gandalf.  "There are many things in
>	the deep waters; and seas and lands may change.  And it is not
>	our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few
>	lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.  We should
>	seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to
>	make one."
>
>I still like my other argument better, though: Sauron was well on his
>way from conquering Middle-Earth even without the ring, and it seems
>that destroying the Ring was the only way to defeat him.

Right, but I only called throwing the Ring into the Sea a "fail-safe" if about
to be captured.  There was no such failsafe on the land route. If the
Ringbearer was captured or killed on land, it was highly likely Sauron would
regain the Ring.  At least if he were lost at Sea, Sauron would be denied the
Ring.

Russ