From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Rebirth of Avari Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Sep 1999 19:42:06 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990902154206.20930.00000267@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!oleane!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I was reading Morgoth's Ring, Of Death and the Severance of Fea and Hroa, and came across a puzzling passage. After describing the rebirth process among the Eldar, it states: "Concerning the fate of other Elves, especially the Dark Elves who refused the summons to Aman, the Eldar know little. The Re-born report that in Mandos, there are many elves, and among them are many of the Alamanyar... This indicates that either that the Avari are not reborn or that they are reborn but go to a different place in Aman than where the Eldar live. The Re-born saw Avari fea in Mandos but they're apparently not showing up reborn in Valinor, Tirion, Alqualonde or Tol Eressea. Any opinion here? Russ Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Rebirth of Avari Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qmteq$1f4_008@Org.xenite.org> References: <19990902154206.20930.00000267@ngol03.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 22:24:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.82 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 936311140 209.181.119.82 (Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:25:40 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:25:40 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!novia!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990902154206.20930.00000267@ngol03.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >This indicates that either that the Avari are not reborn or that they are >reborn but go to a different place in Aman than where the Eldar live. The >Re-born saw Avari fea in Mandos but they're apparently not showing up reborn in >Valinor, Tirion, Alqualonde or Tol Eressea. Well, for one thing, Tolkien abandoned the idea of rebirth. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Rebirth of Avari NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 03 Sep 1999 02:27:29 GMT References: <7qmteq$1f4_008@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990902222729.02420.00000443@ngol02.aol.com> Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7qmteq$1f4_008@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >In article <19990902154206.20930.00000267@ngol03.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com >(McREsq) wrote: >>This indicates that either that the Avari are not reborn or that they are >>reborn but go to a different place in Aman than where the Eldar live. The >>Re-born saw Avari fea in Mandos but they're apparently not showing up reborn >in >>Valinor, Tirion, Alqualonde or Tol Eressea. > >Well, for one thing, Tolkien abandoned the idea of rebirth. > Good point . IIRC, he took the position that the former body was reconstituted, correct? Anyway, I wonder though if his view changed of the general issue of whether the Avari were handled differently than the Eldar (or the Amanyar?) for rembodiement. Russ ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Rebirth of Avari Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 11:29:20 -0400 Lines: 34 Message-ID: <37D13AC9.24C8BE32@erols.com> References: <19990902154206.20930.00000267@ngol03.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: m/c7vVX5S5daGDmlGtRpezXFU13PIidUwbeHRKZahjI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 1999 16:10:19 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > I was reading Morgoth's Ring, Of Death and the Severance of Fea and Hroa, and > came across a puzzling passage. After describing the rebirth process among the > Eldar, it states: > > "Concerning the fate of other Elves, especially the Dark Elves who refused the > summons to Aman, the Eldar know little. The Re-born report that in Mandos, > there are many elves, and among them are many of the Alamanyar... > > This indicates that either that the Avari are not reborn or that they are > reborn but go to a different place in Aman than where the Eldar live. The > Re-born saw Avari fea in Mandos but they're apparently not showing up reborn in > Valinor, Tirion, Alqualonde or Tol Eressea. Maybe they don't wish get new bodies? > Any opinion here? > > Russ > > Russ Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna the Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way! P.S. Why do you sign your name twice?