From: Edward Hummel Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Why are there so few elves? Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:31:48 +0000 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 6 Message-ID: <37CADC24.9C5CADE6@worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: ehummel@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.157.24 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 936058761 11121 12.78.157.24 (31 Aug 1999 00:19:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 1999 00:19:21 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-WNS5.0 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newspump.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Elves live for a very long time, yet have so few children. Why? It would seem a race of beings that often live for thousands of years would have a lot more population. They don't seem to suffer from the problem of the dwarves (too few females). Ed Hummel ###### Message-ID: <37CB3042.214623B3@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? References: <37CADC24.9C5CADE6@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.8.153.32 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 936062657 209.8.153.32 (Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:24:17 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:24:17 EDT Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:30:42 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!europa.netcrusader.net!206.132.58.119!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Edward Hummel wrote: > > Elves live for a very long time, yet have so few children. Why? It > would seem a race of beings that often live for thousands of years would > have a lot more population. They don't seem to suffer from the problem > of the dwarves (too few females). > > Ed Hummel Tolkien essentially says that they just don't feel the procreative urge long enough or often enough to produce many children. That was probably built into the Elves by Eru, to ensure that they'd be willing and able to make room for Men, when their time came. ###### Message-ID: <37CB61A0.28265926@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? References: <37CB3042.214623B3@wizard.net> <19990831004546.06585.00002501@ng-fp1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.8.153.40 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 936075297 209.8.153.40 (Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:54:57 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:54:57 EDT Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:01:20 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Gordon Nash wrote: > > > > >Tolkien essentially says that they just don't feel the procreative urge > >long enough or often enough to produce many children. That was probably > >built into the Elves by Eru, to ensure that they'd be willing and able > >to make room for Men, when their time came. > > My question is their method of birth control. I mean did they just practice I recommend looking at the recent thread titled "Elvish birth control". Most of that thread is less than a week old, I think. ###### From: gordonlew@aol.com (Gordon Nash) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 Aug 1999 04:45:46 GMT References: <37CB3042.214623B3@wizard.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990831004546.06585.00002501@ng-fp1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail > >Tolkien essentially says that they just don't feel the procreative urge >long enough or often enough to produce many children. That was probably >built into the Elves by Eru, to ensure that they'd be willing and able >to make room for Men, when their time came. My question is their method of birth control. I mean did they just practice abstinence? What a waste. I mean Celeborn is married to Galadriel, the most beautiful woman in Middle earth and they only had sex once? What happens with the Eldar-Edain unions? Beren was a man I'm sure he wasn't satisfied having sex only once with Luthian. I'm not trying to be glib here, this has always bothered me. I mean no traditional method of birth control is that effective, in thousands of years you'd expect at least dozens of children. Of course Feanor had 7 sons, but I guess that's just a byproduct of his huge Fea. He did everything in a big way. Feanole aka DrWhoFru ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qfsgc$1rs_050@Org.xenite.org> References: <37CADC24.9C5CADE6@worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 06:25:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.147 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 936080767 207.224.147.147 (Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:26:07 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:26:07 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37CADC24.9C5CADE6@worldnet.att.net>, ehummel@worldnet.att.net wrote: >Elves live for a very long time, yet have so few children. Why? It >would seem a race of beings that often live for thousands of years would >have a lot more population. They don't seem to suffer from the problem >of the dwarves (too few females). 3 or 4 children per couple is not "so few" in my opinion. But perhaps you should look at the "Elven Population Calculation" thread in alt.fan.tolkien (you can find it archived on Deja.Com if your ISP doesn't carry the group) which is currently going on. We're trying to work up some reasonable estimates of populations, though we are having to make many assumptions to do so. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qfskj$1rs_052@Org.xenite.org> References: <37CB3042.214623B3@wizard.net> <19990831004546.06585.00002501@ng-fp1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 26 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 06:27:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.147 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 936080902 207.224.147.147 (Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:28:22 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:28:22 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990831004546.06585.00002501@ng-fp1.aol.com>, gordonlew@aol.com (Gordon Nash) wrote: >>Tolkien essentially says that they just don't feel the procreative urge >>long enough or often enough to produce many children. That was probably >>built into the Elves by Eru, to ensure that they'd be willing and able >>to make room for Men, when their time came. > >My question is their method of birth control. I mean did they just practice >abstinence? What a waste. I mean Celeborn is married to Galadriel, the most >beautiful woman in Middle earth and they only had sex once? What happens with >the Eldar-Edain unions? Beren was a man I'm sure he wasn't satisfied having sex >only once with Luthian. Elves had greater control over their bodies (according to notes published in MORGOTH'S RING). It is conceivable they would either be better at practicing the rhythm method or might be able to prevent conception altogether. However, Elvish intimacy need not necessarily revolve strictly around strict procreational activity. I mean, there are other forms of physical intimacy beside just the baby-making stuff (and variations thereof which cannot result in conception). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: jonmeltzer@mindspring.com (Jon Meltzer) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:28:30 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 10 Message-ID: <37cbae2e.1289439@news.mindspring.com> References: <37CB3042.214623B3@wizard.net> <19990831004546.06585.00002501@ng-fp1.aol.com> Reply-To: jmeltzer@pobox.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.21.2d Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 31 Aug 1999 10:22:02 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On 31 Aug 1999 04:45:46 GMT, gordonlew@aol.com (Gordon Nash) wrote: > >My question is their method of birth control. I mean did they just practice >abstinence? What a waste. I mean Celeborn is married to Galadriel, the most >beautiful woman in Middle earth and they only had sex once? This is _Celeborn_, remember :-) ###### From: "David" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Distribution: world Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? References: <37CADC24.9C5CADE6@worldnet.att.net> <7qfsgc$1rs_050@Org.xenite.org> Organization: Disciples of Jesus Christ X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.240.9.223 X-Trace: typ11.nn.bcandid.com 936132132 209.240.9.223 (Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:42:12 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:42:12 EDT Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:40:28 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail I disagree, 3 to 4 children is a small family...7 or 8 is medium sized, and more than 12 is Large. I know its the trend to think of small families as ideal, but in the past, especially in agricultural communities families were large because people loved people and didn't See them as a plague on the Earth needing to be eradicated. In the Times these stories take place, 3 or four children would therefore be very small. Elves may have had a slightly different biology because of their long lives that spread conception out much more than in humans so that they could only concieve once in a great while. -- David Darois > 3 or 4 children per couple is not "so few" in my opinion. But perhaps you > should look at the "Elven Population Calculation" thread in alt.fan.tolkien > (you can find it archived on Deja.Com if your ISP doesn't carry the group) > which is currently going on. We're trying to work up some reasonable > estimates of populations, though we are having to make many assumptions to > do so. > > > -- > \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org > \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! > //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] > // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <37CC4178.5AEDF62B@po-box.mcgill.ca> From: Carl Blondin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? References: <37CADC24.9C5CADE6@worldnet.att.net> <7qfsgc$1rs_050@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:51:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.40.228 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 936132688 206.172.40.228 (Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:51:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:51:28 EDT Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail David wrote: > I disagree, 3 to 4 children is a small family...7 or 8 is medium sized, and > more than 12 is Large. I know its the trend to think of small families as > ideal, but in the past, especially in agricultural communities families were > large because people loved people and didn't See them as a plague on the > Earth needing to be eradicated Actually it was because it was cheaper to get your own children to work on the family farm or garden or whatever, than to hire outside help. Carl ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:59:53 GMT Organization: PowerSurfr - High Speed Internet Lines: 15 Message-ID: <37cc4f52.15937605@news.prosurfr.com> References: <37CB3042.214623B3@wizard.net> <19990831004546.06585.00002501@ng-fp1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-003.v-wave.com X-Trace: dagger.videotron.ab.ca 936136714 25049 24.108.21.103 (31 Aug 1999 21:58:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 1999 21:58:34 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!news.tac.net!news.videotron.ab.ca!not-for-mail gordonlew@aol.com (Gordon Nash) wrote, in part: >My question is their method of birth control. Eru blessed them with low fertility, so that the Roman Catholic author J. R. R. Tolkien wouldn't have to face any embarassing social issues in his works. Of course, in works of fantasy by any author, the gritty details of everyday life often find themselves swept under the rug. LotR wasn't Conan-style escapism, but it still had a focus, and matters outside that focus are simply assumed to work out somehow. John Savard ( teneerf<- ) http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:27:26 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <37CADC24.9C5CADE6@worldnet.att.net> <7qfsgc$1rs_050@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, David wrote: > I disagree, 3 to 4 children is a small family...7 or 8 is medium sized, > and more than 12 is Large. I know its the trend to think of small > families as ideal, but in the past, especially in agricultural > communities families were large because people loved people and didn't > See them as a plague on the Earth needing to be eradicated. In the Times > these stories take place, 3 or four children would therefore be very > small. Elves may have had a slightly different biology because of their > long lives that spread conception out much more than in humans so that > they could only concieve once in a great while. There is truth here, but it is incomplete. It needs to be put in perspective. It is true that, throughout history and prehistory, up until the time of the industrial revolution, the average fertility rate was between 5 to 7 children per woman. However, this only resulted in an average of 2 adult offspring per woman. The rule throughout history has been replacement-level fertility. Take a young man, a young woman give them twenty years, and what they produce, typically, is another young man and another young woman (adult son and daughter). The other 3-5 children will be dead before they themselves get a chance to reproduce. We know this because population has been essentially steady since pre-ancient times up to the industrial revolution. Most of the deaths occurred in infancy and early childhood. Thus, for a mother to successfully raise 4 children to adulthood is quite a respectable and above-average achievement. The result could quite fairly be considered a "large family". If the average woman in a population were to make such an achievement, then population would grow at a steady rate which would not be indefinitely sustainable. With the population base doubling each generation, a village of 2,000 would grow to the tens of TRILLIONS in less than a thousand years. Of course, there has been enormous population growth since the industrial revolution. This was because mortality rates fell suddenly in response to certain medical advances (particularly the treatment of childhood diseases) but reproductive habits did not change fast enough to compensate. Thus, recent history is an anomaly in that it is an era of greater-than-replacement-level fertilty. But reproductive habits are changing. This is a natural process, and not a Godless conspiracy. Todays smaller families are a natural adjustment towards the norm of replacement-level fertility. -- John Whelan ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qicod$23s_046@Org.xenite.org> References: <37CB3042.214623B3@wizard.net> <19990831004546.06585.00002501@ng-fp1.aol.com> <37cbae2e.1289439@news.mindspring.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 05:14:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.126 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 936162953 207.224.147.126 (Wed, 01 Sep 1999 00:15:53 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 00:15:53 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37cbae2e.1289439@news.mindspring.com>, jmeltzer@pobox.com wrote: >On 31 Aug 1999 04:45:46 GMT, gordonlew@aol.com (Gordon Nash) wrote: > >> >>My question is their method of birth control. I mean did they just practice >>abstinence? What a waste. I mean Celeborn is married to Galadriel, the most >>beautiful woman in Middle earth and they only had sex once? > >This is _Celeborn_, remember :-) Yes, indeed. He had the good sense not to overwhelm her, and doubtless did not wish to diminish her great power by causing her to give birth to so many children she lost a great part of herself in them. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qicqj$23s_048@Org.xenite.org> References: <37CADC24.9C5CADE6@worldnet.att.net> <7qfsgc$1rs_050@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 25 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 05:16:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.126 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 936163026 207.224.147.126 (Wed, 01 Sep 1999 00:17:06 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 00:17:06 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , "David" wrote: >I disagree, 3 to 4 children is a small family...7 or 8 is medium sized, and >more than 12 is Large. I know its the trend to think of small families as >ideal, but in the past, especially in agricultural communities families were >large because people loved people and didn't See them as a plague on the >Earth needing to be eradicated. In the Times these stories take place, 3 or >four children would therefore be very small. Elves may have had a slightly >different biology because of their long lives that spread conception out >much more than in humans so that they could only concieve once in a great >while. With respect to Elves, 12 children is unbelievably large and 7 or 8 is unusually large. Such family sizes would also send the Elven population off the map (literally). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <37CD1D76.D5F3B85E@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? References: <37CADC24.9C5CADE6@worldnet.att.net> <7qfsgc$1rs_050@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.8.153.42 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 936188909 209.8.153.42 (Wed, 01 Sep 1999 08:28:29 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 08:28:29 EDT Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 08:35:02 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail John Whelan wrote: ... > a chance to reproduce. We know this because population has been > essentially steady since pre-ancient times up to the industrial > revolution. Correction - the world had a steadily (on long time scales) increasing rate of growth over that time. That rate of growth was much smaller than it was after the industrial revolution, just a little bit over replacement, but it wasn't stasis. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Sep 1999 14:52:41 GMT References: <7qicod$23s_046@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990901105241.29233.00000033@ngol04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7qicod$23s_046@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>>My question is their method of birth control. I mean did they just practice >>>abstinence? What a waste. I mean Celeborn is married to Galadriel, the most >>>beautiful woman in Middle earth and they only had sex once? >> >>This is _Celeborn_, remember :-) > >Yes, indeed. He had the good sense not to overwhelm her, and doubtless did >not wish to diminish her great power by causing her to give birth to so >many children she lost a great part of herself in them. > I'm surprised no one has jumped on Tolkien's position that childbearing diminishes elven women. The sexist bastard! Russ ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:57:50 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <37CADC24.9C5CADE6@worldnet.att.net> <7qfsgc$1rs_050@Org.xenite.org> <37CD1D76.D5F3B85E@wizard.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: <37CD1D76.D5F3B85E@wizard.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, James Kuyper Jr. wrote: > John Whelan wrote: > ... > > a chance to reproduce. We know this because population has been > > essentially steady since pre-ancient times up to the industrial > > revolution. > > Correction - the world had a steadily (on long time scales) increasing > rate of growth over that time. That rate of growth was much smaller than > it was after the industrial revolution, just a little bit over > replacement, but it wasn't stasis. I am aware of that. That is why I did not say "absolutely steady", but merely "essentially steady" (for purposes of the argument), and certainly amazingly steady compared to the population explosion that took place after the Industrial Revolution. Yes, there was, over the course of centruries and millenia, significant increases. This means that average fertility must have been *slightly* above replacement level. The average woman would successfully raise EVER SO slightly more than 2 adult children, (2.01 or 2.02) but nowhere near 3. -- John Whelan ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qmfqn$ok_026@Org.xenite.org> References: <7qicod$23s_046@Org.xenite.org> <19990901105241.29233.00000033@ngol04.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:32:14 EDT Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 18:31:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-fra.pop.de!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!news1.POSTED!Xenite In article <19990901105241.29233.00000033@ngol04.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >I'm surprised no one has jumped on Tolkien's position that childbearing >diminishes elven women. The sexist bastard! It diminished the Elven men, too. I'm sure anyone foolish enough to jump on Tolkien for being sexist in this respect would be overwhelmed by citation illness quite swiftly. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 21:23:38 GMT Organization: PowerSurfr - High Speed Internet Lines: 16 Message-ID: <37ceeaa5.20833608@news.prosurfr.com> References: <7qicod$23s_046@Org.xenite.org> <19990901105241.29233.00000033@ngol04.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-003.v-wave.com X-Trace: dagger.videotron.ab.ca 936307339 4258 24.108.21.103 (2 Sep 1999 21:22:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Sep 1999 21:22:19 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!news.tac.net!news.videotron.ab.ca!not-for-mail mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote, in part: >In article <7qicod$23s_046@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: >>Yes, indeed. He had the good sense not to overwhelm her, and doubtless did >>not wish to diminish her great power by causing her to give birth to so >>many children she lost a great part of herself in them. >I'm surprised no one has jumped on Tolkien's position that childbearing >diminishes elven women. The sexist bastard! Ah, but perhaps _sex_ diminishes elven men. So it's the men who get diminished more often, and hence get diminished to a greater extent. John Savard ( teneerf<- ) http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 03 Sep 1999 02:27:29 GMT References: <37ceeaa5.20833608@news.prosurfr.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990902222729.02420.00000439@ngol02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37ceeaa5.20833608@news.prosurfr.com>, jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) writes: >>>Yes, indeed. He had the good sense not to overwhelm her, and doubtless did > >>>not wish to diminish her great power by causing her to give birth to so >>>many children she lost a great part of herself in them. > >>I'm surprised no one has jumped on Tolkien's position that childbearing >>diminishes elven women. The sexist bastard! > >Ah, but perhaps _sex_ diminishes elven men. So it's the men who get >diminished more often, and hence get diminished to a greater extent. I try to get diminished as often as possible. Russ ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why are there so few elves? Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 20:03:31 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Sun Sep 5 13:15:06 1999 References: <37CB3042.214623B3@wizard.net> <19990831004546.06585.00002501@ng-fp1.aol.com> <7qfskj$1rs_052@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-004mnminnp265.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 5 Sep 1999 20:08:10 GMT Message-ID: <37d2cc0d.12953031@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!nntp.abs.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 06:27:31 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > However, Elvish intimacy need not necessarily revolve strictly >around strict procreational activity. I mean, there are other forms of >physical intimacy beside just the baby-making stuff (and variations >thereof which cannot result in conception). As revealed in a recently unearthed Elvish document, "69 Ways to Nonprocreative Intimacy" ;-) "And I hope my Sam's behaved hisself and given satisfaction?" "Perfect satisfaction, Mr. Gamgee," said Frodo. The Prembone Pages http://prembone.tsx.org (New URL) ~~~Where the Tildeful People go~~~