From: Larry Richards Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Poster Profiles Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 02:56:36 -0400 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 20 Message-ID: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-32-44.itc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail I have to admit, I am not following the great debates very closely. But I do occasionally drop in to see if anything humorous (intentional or not) has been posted. So I am not always clear who is on which side of the debate: pro-wing, anti-wing; Frodo-speaking, ring-speaking; Eowyn-slaying, Merry-slaying; pointy-eared, non-pointy eared. I was wondering if there was something we could do to have ready access to various people's positions on these debates. Could we have a profile page at some website, perhaps, where various people registered their views, and then anytime you wanted to check out where RLV or McREsq stood on the issue, you could just go to the site and look them up. Your reactions? Any folk that have web sites willing to take on this task? -- LGR A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, partisan! ###### From: Larry Richards Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:16:35 -0400 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 52 Message-ID: <37CABC73.62B59E9C@virginia.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfe0l$kc8$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-32-41.itc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!news.globix.net!uunet!nyc.uu.net!lax.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > Larry Richards wrote in message > news:37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu... > > > I was wondering if there was something we could do to > > have ready access to various people's positions on these > > debates. > > Interesting, but... why? I don't see as I particularly > need to know the views held by others on various points > except while we are actually debating them - at which time > it is usually fairly clear. I suppose that might not be > the case for someone following the topic only casually but > then don't understand why they would be interested. It is also difficult to follow the debate for those of us who have set up message filters (And no, I'm sure I won't see the flaming reply to this unless its emailed to me, which I'm sure it will be.) It is rather obvious that Mr. Martinez is pro-wings and believes the ring spoke, while Öjevind is very forcefully anti-wing. But sometimes, when the discussion wanders far afield in trying to prove some side issue that might help clarify the main issue, it can be hard to tell who's doing what. As an example, while the Wheel of Fire discussion has had some interesting stuff in it, it was just too much for me to wade through it all. (I was away for a week and when I got back I found over a thousand posts unread!) So while I've been taking note of debate, when I saw Bill Morse today I had to ask him which side of the debate he was on. (this is because when I stepped in there was a long discussion going on about prophecy and reflexivity that did not make it clear who was arguing what.) > My 'preferred interpretations' would currently be; > Temporarily 'wingish' shadow > Frodo speaking with Ring twisting perceptions > Eowyn killing non spell-protected Witch King > Pointy eared elves > Bearded dwarven women > Glorfindel the reincarnated Calaquendi Noldor Hey, I finally found a use for the flagging thingy in my Netscape news reader! I have flagged this post and the others like it and now I can use it to figure out who's who. Maybe this is all I needed (though it won't help newbies.) -- LGR A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, partisan! ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:10:04 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 27 Message-ID: <7qfe0l$kc8$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.184 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 936065877 20872 12.79.24.184 (31 Aug 1999 02:17:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 1999 02:17:57 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Larry Richards wrote in message news:37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu... > I was wondering if there was something we could do to > have ready access to various people's positions on these > debates. Interesting, but... why? I don't see as I particularly need to know the views held by others on various points except while we are actually debating them - at which time it is usually fairly clear. I suppose that might not be the case for someone following the topic only casually but then don't understand why they would be interested. As to such a list, we could make up a code string or have a sort of FAQ-like regular posting... plus the web-page idea of course. Just the matter of maintaining it. My 'preferred interpretations' would currently be; Temporarily 'wingish' shadow Frodo speaking with Ring twisting perceptions Eowyn killing non spell-protected Witch King Pointy eared elves Bearded dwarven women Glorfindel the reincarnated Calaquendi Noldor ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:55:17 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!nntp2.lotsanews.com.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Larry Richards wrote: > I have to admit, I am not following the great debates very closely. But > I do occasionally drop in to see if anything humorous (intentional or > not) has been posted. So I am not always clear who is on which side of > the debate: pro-wing, anti-wing; Frodo-speaking, ring-speaking; > Eowyn-slaying, Merry-slaying; pointy-eared, non-pointy eared. The balrogs "wings" were both like and unlike any wings the company had ever seen before, but they called them "wings" for lack of a better word (for no better word existed). We can assume that "wings" is the best word, because it is the one that was finally settled on. We do not know if he could fly with them. Both the Ring and Frodo participated in the speaking. Both Eowyn and Merry participated in the slaying. Elves should have larger, somewhat pointed ears in any visual adaptation to distinguish them easly from humans, and to symbolize their affinity to nature and superior hearing. The eyes should also be distinctive, but I doubt that contact lenses will be sufficient to make actors look sufficiently distinctive. -- John Whelan ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 Aug 1999 01:42:40 GMT References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990830214240.13742.00001951@ng-fj1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.icl.net!oleane!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, >partisan! FernWithy -- winged balrog (though she doesn't care), Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, not caring about the ears, Frodo-rescuing, faithful moviemaking obsessive. --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: sonshi57@mindspring.com (Douglas Henderson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 02:40:16 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 51 Message-ID: <37cd3d5f.8232296@news.mindspring.com> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfe0l$kc8$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.12.01 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 31 Aug 1999 02:41:48 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!newsfeed.axxsys.net!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:10:04 -0400, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >Larry Richards wrote in message >news:37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu... > >> I was wondering if there was something we could do to >> have ready access to various people's positions on these >> debates. > >Interesting, but... why? I don't see as I particularly >need to know the views held by others on various points >except while we are actually debating them - at which time >it is usually fairly clear. I suppose that might not be >the case for someone following the topic only casually but >then don't understand why they would be interested. As to >such a list, we could make up a code string or have a sort >of FAQ-like regular posting... plus the web-page idea of >course. Just the matter of maintaining it. > >My 'preferred interpretations' would currently be; >Temporarily 'wingish' shadow >Frodo speaking with Ring twisting perceptions >Eowyn killing non spell-protected Witch King >Pointy eared elves >Bearded dwarven women >Glorfindel the reincarnated Calaquendi Noldor > > Balrog with shadow emanation that can have the appearance of wings Ring/Frodo amalgam speaking, not Frodo Westernese Sword piercing spell so that Eowyn can kill Witch King Jaw Jaw is better than War War; civility civility is better than hostility hostility (flames) Xena is bi (oops) All the above are subject to revision if someone can convince me. Not likely to change: I don't like Mr. Martinez. \/\/\/\/ Sindamor Pandaturion ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 Aug 1999 04:06:18 GMT References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990831000618.16940.00004127@ngol02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail OK, Frodo spoke on Mt. Doom Elves and Dwarves really don't like eachother The nazgul intended to get the Ring on Weathertop I don't give a rat's ass about Balrog wings or pointed ears on elves Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qfpgk$1rs_032@Org.xenite.org> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 48 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 05:34:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.147 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 936077704 207.224.147.147 (Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:35:04 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:35:04 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu>, Larry Richards wrote: >I was wondering if there was something we could do to have ready access >to various people's positions on these debates. Could we have a profile >page at some website, perhaps, where various people registered their >views, and then anytime you wanted to check out where RLV or McREsq >stood on the issue, you could just go to the site and look them up. > >Your reactions? Any folk that have web sites willing to take on this >task? I'm sure you're serious, but seeing some of followups so far, I can't help but laugh a little. I'm tempted to write up a "Great Debate Positions FAQ". :) The problem is that I, at least, have changed my views over the years on various "Great Debate" topics. I'm not saying I'm likely to change my views on any of the current issues, but if I were to say, "Well, I've always held that..." concerning almost any topic, you could probably find contradictory statements from me on Deja.Com, and it only goes back to the beginning of 1995. Currnetly, I'm: 1) Pro-wings on the LOTR-era Balrogs 2) Pro-Ring spoke on Mount Doom 3) Pro-Elves and Dwarves generally got along 4) Con-Ingwe, Elwe, Finwe, et. al., were first gen. Elves 5) Pro-bearded Elves 6) Con-pointy-eared Elves 7) Pro-wait-and-see on the movies 8) Pro-Liv Tyler Can't think of any other "Great Debates" at the moment. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: colinr@toliman.uio.no (Colin Rosenthal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 31 Aug 1999 06:44:32 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 11 Message-ID: <7qftkg$j2e$2@readme.uio.no> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfe0l$kc8$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37cd3d5f.8232296@news.mindspring.com> Reply-To: colin.rosenthal@astro.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Host: toliman.uio.no User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.online.no!newsfeed.online.no!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!colinr On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 02:40:16 GMT, Douglas Henderson wrote: >Jaw Jaw is better than War War Jar-Jar is better than Star Wars? -- Colin Rosenthal Astrophysics Institute University of Oslo ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:32:50 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 24 Message-ID: <7qgs40$fo6$5@news.worldonline.nl> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp204-41.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 936113088 16134 195.241.204.41 (31 Aug 1999 15:24:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 1999 15:24:48 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!uucp.muenster.de!e450-01.carrier1.net!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail I object to whatever Öjevind says (except when he names me in his will as main beneficiary), and otherwise I like to play devil's advocate. Oh yeah, I do hold one position: Group - Arkady = Peace. Hehe. db ]Larry Richards wrote in message <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu>... > >A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, >partisan! > _________ Yep. That's about the size of it, Bunky. _________ PS: Pls remove ".NoSpam" from email adres when replying ###### From: softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:15:07 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!uio.no!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.ntr.net!remarQ60!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:29:03 +0200, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > >These are my opinions in the great debates: > >1.The Balrog had a shadow which was not dependent on any light source on >Middle-earth to exist. On one described occasion this shadow stretched >behind it like wings; but it was not wings. >2. The Balrog was not identical with the Watcher in he Water. >3. Frodo spoke on Mount Doom, but was so completely consumed by the Ring at >that time that he spoke as *one* with the Ring. >4. Éowyn killed the Witch-King after the spell holding his invisible sinews >together had been broken by Merry using an enchanted blade made against the >Witch-King by a mastersmith in the forgotten North. >5. The Elves had slightly pointed ears, rather like Liam Neeson. >6. Dwarven women had beards because Dwarven men had, and they were >indistinguishable from each other. >7. Glorfindel was the Calaquendi Noldo of that name reincarnated and sent >back to Middle-earth on a mission. >8. Relations between Elves and Dwarves were often suspicious or downright >hostile. > >Öjevind > Oh, come on, Ol(l)e! You can be more controversial that this! Jeez! May the Farce Be With You the softrat ###### From: Jereeza Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:33:56 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 41 Message-ID: <7qhl8k$cpt$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.29.232.135 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Aug 31 22:33:56 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.08 [en] (Win16; I ;Nav) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x25.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.29.232.135 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjereeza Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu>, Larry Richards wrote: > I have to admit, I am not following the great debates very closely. But > I do occasionally drop in to see if anything humorous (intentional or > not) has been posted. So I am not always clear who is on which side of > the debate: pro-wing, anti-wing; Frodo-speaking, ring-speaking; > Eowyn-slaying, Merry-slaying; pointy-eared, non-pointy eared. > > I was wondering if there was something we could do to have ready access > to various people's positions on these debates. Could we have a profile > page at some website, perhaps, where various people registered their > views, and then anytime you wanted to check out where RLV or McREsq > stood on the issue, you could just go to the site and look them up. > > Your reactions? Any folk that have web sites willing to take on this > task? Great idea! Before I modify my sig, here's a list: Ring speaking (I don't know why! I just got that image inmy mind when reading the book and it stuck) Eowyn slaying (hobbits were human IMHO) Balrog - even if it did have wings, they were useless. It DID NOT fly. Non-PE Elves (do I need a reason? No. So there) -- ~ Jereeza the Witch-Pearl of the East ~ the bellydancing Nazgul of the Monty Balrog Flying Circus, the official stand-up comedian of TEUNC, AFT-fiancee to R.L.V., and a Tilde ;) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Lines: 37 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.245.73 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 936138805 130.244.245.73 (Wed, 01 Sep 1999 00:33:25 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 00:33:25 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@dialup245-2-9.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:29:03 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Larry Richards hath written: >I have to admit, I am not following the great debates very closely. But >I do occasionally drop in to see if anything humorous (intentional or >not) has been posted. So I am not always clear who is on which side of >the debate: pro-wing, anti-wing; Frodo-speaking, ring-speaking; >Eowyn-slaying, Merry-slaying; pointy-eared, non-pointy eared. > > >A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, >partisan! These are my opinions in the great debates: 1.The Balrog had a shadow which was not dependent on any light source on Middle-earth to exist. On one described occasion this shadow stretched behind it like wings; but it was not wings. 2. The Balrog was not identical with the Watcher in he Water. 3. Frodo spoke on Mount Doom, but was so completely consumed by the Ring at that time that he spoke as *one* with the Ring. 4. Éowyn killed the Witch-King after the spell holding his invisible sinews together had been broken by Merry using an enchanted blade made against the Witch-King by a mastersmith in the forgotten North. 5. The Elves had slightly pointed ears, rather like Liam Neeson. 6. Dwarven women had beards because Dwarven men had, and they were indistinguishable from each other. 7. Glorfindel was the Calaquendi Noldo of that name reincarnated and sent back to Middle-earth on a mission. 8. Relations between Elves and Dwarves were often suspicious or downright hostile. Öjevind ###### Message-ID: <37CD3064.6B3ED730@mediaone.net> From: Ilya Aksman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en]C-MOEATL (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:55:48 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.27.16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 936193814 24.128.27.16 (Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:50:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:50:14 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail My take: - No wings on balrogs - No pointy ears for Elves - Elves can have beards - Frodo spoke on Mt Doom, but he was claimed by the ring already - Eowin and Merry were both essential and both "not a man" - Dwarven women didn't have beards, but they might have had moustache :) Tolkien said that Dwarven women looked like "young" male dwarves, that's why I think so. Natalya. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:07:43 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7qiqj9$bn5$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-c082.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 936177065 12005 195.167.121.210 (1 Sep 1999 09:11:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Sep 1999 09:11:05 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Here's mine. 1) Wings: If you define "wings" as "anything shaped as a bird's wings" then I say that the Balrog had wings - that precise moment. Not necessarily all the time though, nor necessarily all Barlogs did. 2) Anti-Ring speaking. 4) Con-Ingwe, Elwe, Finwe, being first gen. Elves as Tolkien's final idea. But I also believe he held this idea for a very long time and it would be nicer if he had kept it. 5) Pro-bearded Elves. Though I like more the other idea, and I'd prefer it if most Elves in the movie were not bearded. 6) Con-pointy-eared Elves Aris Katsaris ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Egbert Lenderink Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Sender: news@natlab.research.philips.com (USEnet Subsystem) Message-ID: <37CD1A69.ACB49EF3@natlab.research.philips.com> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:22:01 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: pc3632 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Organization: Philips Research Lines: 52 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!news.eur.cis.philips.com!newssvr!news Larry Richards wrote: > > I have to admit, I am not following the great debates very closely. But > I do occasionally drop in to see if anything humorous (intentional or > not) has been posted. So I am not always clear who is on which side of > the debate: pro-wing, anti-wing; Frodo-speaking, ring-speaking; > Eowyn-slaying, Merry-slaying; pointy-eared, non-pointy eared. > I hardly take part in the Great Discussions, but I do follow them up to a certain point (I start skipping threads as soon as it has gotten down to "is so, is not"). Here are my opinions: * all texts are inconclusive whether a Balrog has wings or not; it does have a shadowy emanation of some sort that at least in the scene at the bridge of Khazad-duum seemed to take the form of wings; all the same, I think it is highly unlikely that the Balrogs were literally flying across Hithlum; * Frodo spoke, but his will was taken over by the Ring so strongly that it seemed to Sam as if the Ring itself was speaking; * Eowyn dealt the decisive blow to the Witch-King, but could never have done so without the action of Merry; the spell spoke about "no man", so a woman could get around the spell anyway (spell ineffective because of ambiguity in the meaning of "man" in this case: interpreted by WK as "any human being", but in his dying hour he must have come upon the alternative interpretation), even without assistance, but I think that to get around the spell it was absolutely necessary that any assistance came from a non-man as well; * no pointed Elven ears. My opinions in some other debates that have been going on in the last year or so: * Tom Bombadil is the spirit of the initial, unsoiled Middle-earth, before the first wars had raged over it; in a way, the personification of one of Eru's themes, before any Ainu had improvised on it; * the Dwarves' wives do have beards; * the Entwives really are extinct; but they may have introduced farming to Elves and Men -- this explains why Treebeard finds so much Entwife-like in the descriptions of the Shire. Egbert. -- This message reflects my personal opinions only, not necessarily those of the company I work for. ###### From: colinr@toliman.uio.no (Colin Rosenthal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 1 Sep 1999 12:55:19 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7qj7nn$t2f$1@readme.uio.no> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <37CD1A69.ACB49EF3@natlab.research.philips.com> Reply-To: colin.rosenthal@astro.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Host: toliman.uio.no User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!colinr On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:22:01 GMT, Egbert Lenderink wrote: >* Eowyn dealt the decisive blow to the Witch-King, but could never have >done so without the action of Merry; the spell spoke about "no man", so >a woman could get around the spell anyway What spell? I thought it was a prophecy. -- Colin Rosenthal Astrophysics Institute University of Oslo ###### From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 1 Sep 1999 13:43:07 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 15 Message-ID: <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.voicenet.com!nntp.upenn.edu!babel.ling.upenn.edu!kurisuto Geez, you missed my favorite controversy, namely whether the Eagles could have flown Frodo to Mount Doom. I say they could have, and that it's a hole in the plot that this plan wasn't even discussed. This debate used to erupt all the time here several years ago; but it must not have been in the group much recently, since it didn't make the "best hits" list of Tolkien controversies. \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu) --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ _| ,| ,| ----- _| ,| ,| [_] | | | [_] ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Egbert Lenderink Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Sender: news@natlab.research.philips.com (USEnet Subsystem) Message-ID: <37CD3504.50CEDB8D@natlab.research.philips.com> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:15:32 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: pc3632 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <37CD1A69.ACB49EF3@natlab.research.philips.com> <7qj7nn$t2f$1@readme.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Organization: Philips Research Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!news.eur.cis.philips.com!newssvr!news Colin Rosenthal wrote: > > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:22:01 GMT, > Egbert Lenderink wrote: > > >* Eowyn dealt the decisive blow to the Witch-King, but could never have > >done so without the action of Merry; the spell spoke about "no man", so > >a woman could get around the spell anyway > > What spell? I thought it was a prophecy. > Could be. I don't remember the exact wording in the book. Although the "technical" details differ in the case of a prophecy, I think the idea behind my point still stands: Eowyn could have done it all by herself and still fulfill the prophecy, but now that she did need some assistance, it was mandatory that the assistance did not come from a man. Egbert. -- This message reflects my personal opinions only, not necessarily those of the company I work for. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Sep 1999 15:14:35 GMT References: <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990901111435.20930.00000072@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nntp.psi.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) writes: >Geez, you missed my favorite controversy, namely whether the Eagles could >have flown Frodo to Mount Doom. I say they could have, and that it's a >hole in the plot that this plan wasn't even discussed. > >This debate used to erupt all the time here several years ago; but it must >not have been in the group much recently, since it didn't make the "best >hits" list of Tolkien controversies. Tolkien addressed this precise issue in on (or more) of his Letters. Maybe some kind soul can just quote Tolkien's exact words on the topic of Eagles carrying characters around. Russ ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:43:51 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 31 Message-ID: <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.201 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 936222706 24104 12.79.28.201 (1 Sep 1999 21:51:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Sep 1999 21:51:46 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Sean Crist wrote in message news:7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu... > Geez, you missed my favorite controversy, namely whether > the Eagles could have flown Frodo to Mount Doom. I say > they could have, and that it's a hole in the plot that > this plan wasn't even discussed. > This debate used to erupt all the time here several years > ago; but it must not have been in the group much > recently, since it didn't make the "best hits" list of > Tolkien controversies. It gets brought up constantly still, but is not generally debated as one person asks the question and gets a bunch of different answers on why it wouldn't work. There are a host of potential problems with it and everyone has their favorites which they post now and again every week or so when the question gets asked. My favorites are; 1: There weren't any Eagles hanging around Rivendell 2: Sauron could cause Mount Doom to erupt - toasty Eagles 3: Orcs with bows could make short work of one Eagle 4: Hobbits were resistant to the Ring - Eagles weren't 5: The Valar were trying to get the Eruhini to clean up their own mess for once w/o more than emergency help and guidance - ergo the Eagles wouldn't do it for them ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qiqj9$bn5$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Lines: 14 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.57.20 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 936219993 130.244.57.20 (Wed, 01 Sep 1999 23:06:33 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 23:06:33 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@dialup57-1-20.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:02:12 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Aris Katsaris hath written: > >5) Pro-bearded Elves. Though I like more the other idea, and I'd prefer it >if most Elves in the movie were not bearded. What's the matter with you? I dig the idea of seeing a line of bearded Elves with pick-axes marching to their jewel mine and singing: "Heigh-ho! Heigh-ho!" Öjevind ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <19990901111435.20930.00000072@ngol03.aol.com> Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.57.20 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 936220535 130.244.57.20 (Wed, 01 Sep 1999 23:15:35 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 23:15:35 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@dialup57-1-20.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:11:14 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail McREsq hath written: > >Tolkien addressed this precise issue in on (or more) of his Letters. Maybe >some kind soul can just quote Tolkien's exact words on the topic of Eagles >carrying characters around. > >Russ Here is a quote from Letter 210, which commented on the outlined plot for a film based on "The Lord of the Rings" which as never made: "The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. The alighting of a Great Eagle of the Misty Mountains in the Shire is absud; it also makes the later capture of G. [Gandalf] by Saruman incredible, and spoils the account of his escape." Öjevind ###### From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 2 Sep 1999 02:02:22 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 24 Message-ID: <7qklre$1f1$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <19990901111435.20930.00000072@ngol03.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.upenn.edu!babel.ling.upenn.edu!kurisuto In article , Öjevind Lång wrote: >McREsq hath written: >Here is a quote from Letter 210, which commented on the outlined plot for a >film based on "The Lord of the Rings" which as never made: > >"The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that >is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. The alighting of a >Great Eagle of the Misty Mountains in the Shire is absud; it also makes the >later capture of G. [Gandalf] by Saruman incredible, and spoils the account >of his escape." Yes, I'm aware of that letter. The problem is, this is a story-external reason. I agree entirely that it wouldn't be nearly as good a story if the dreadful travel into Mordor by Frodo and Sam were neatly snipped out and replaced by a flight by the eagles. But that doesn't solve the hole in the plot. \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu) --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ _| ,| ,| ----- _| ,| ,| [_] | | | [_] ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Sep 1999 04:28:44 GMT References: <7qklre$1f1$1@netnews.upenn.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990902002844.22374.00002835@ng-bj1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >Yes, I'm aware of that letter. The problem is, this is a story-external >reason. I agree entirely that it wouldn't be nearly as good a story if the >dreadful travel into Mordor by Frodo and Sam were neatly snipped out and >replaced by a flight by the eagles. But that doesn't solve the hole in the >plot. I agree, and this is a subject I've wondered about. I'm glad JRRT knew he was working with a "dangerous machine," but I wish he'd found a way in the text to disarm it. He set up their use well in the rescue of Gandalf, but he didn't really set up their non-use elsewhere. Did they just dislike getting involved? Did they have their own battle to fight? Did no one think to call on them until that late time? Did they assume, perhaps, that Sauron wouldn't trouble with them? Is this answered anywhere in text? --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Sep 1999 04:28:44 GMT References: <7qklre$1f1$1@netnews.upenn.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990902002844.22374.00002835@ng-bj1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >Yes, I'm aware of that letter. The problem is, this is a story-external >reason. I agree entirely that it wouldn't be nearly as good a story if the >dreadful travel into Mordor by Frodo and Sam were neatly snipped out and >replaced by a flight by the eagles. But that doesn't solve the hole in the >plot. I agree, and this is a subject I've wondered about. I'm glad JRRT knew he was working with a "dangerous machine," but I wish he'd found a way in the text to disarm it. He set up their use well in the rescue of Gandalf, but he didn't really set up their non-use elsewhere. Did they just dislike getting involved? Did they have their own battle to fight? Did no one think to call on them until that late time? Did they assume, perhaps, that Sauron wouldn't trouble with them? Is this answered anywhere in text? --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:03:15 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 93 Message-ID: <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7qkneh$vil$1@netnews.upenn.edu> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.96 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 936307780 2343 12.79.28.96 (2 Sep 1999 21:29:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Sep 1999 21:29:40 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Sean Crist wrote in message news:7qkneh$vil$1@netnews.upenn.edu... > Not necessarily a problem. We know that it's possible to > send messages to the eagles asking for their help; this > is how Gandalf ends up being inadvertently rescued from > Orthanc (the messages that he asked Radagast to send). You may note that Radagast was ALSO not at Rivendell. Ergo... same problem. > I agree that it might be possible for Sauron to order > Mount Doom to erupt. > However, he'd have to identify the threat in time. Which should not have been a problem for an Ainu of his power. Note that Gandalf seems to feel the Eagles coming even in the midst of a battle; "As if to his eyes some sudden vision had been given, Gandalf stirred; and he turned, looking back north where the skies were pale and clear. Then he listed up his hands and cried in a loud voice ringing above the din: The Eagles are coming!" RotK, The Field of Cormallen No palantir required. Can we say with certainty that Sauron could do the same? No, but we don't have to. It would be entirely reasonable for the characters in the story to not bring up a plan they knew from the outset to be pointless... we can supply plenty of reasons why this plan MIGHT have been known to be no good, but there could as easily be a dozen other problems with it. As such I see no 'plot hole' at all... there are plenty of reasonable potential problems with the idea. > As for landing, we know that the area around Mt. Doom is > uninhabited; Sauron did not waste troops occupying this > area. Actually, my recollection is that Mount Doom normally WAS garrisoned... only having been abandoned during the time of Frodo and Sam's journey due to all the forces being called away to take part in the final battle at the Black Gate. Even if the passage to this effect is nothing more than a figment of my memory.... we still have no evidence that this was NOT the case that I know of. > I'm aware of nothing in the text which would suggest that > an eagle could not resist the Ring long enough to make > the flight. In the text of LotR? No. Outside of it JRRT has some letters which indicate that Frodo's effort was doomed from the start and that nobody could have willingly tossed in the Ring... which would include the Eagles or an Eagle borne Frodo. The Wise could see something of 'what is meant to be'.... Gandalf foresees that Gollum will have some important part to play before the end. As such they could simply KNOW that the Eagles were not the way to go... and if the Eagles HAD been used, then even if all had gone well - still Frodo would have failed the impossible task in the end and Sauron would have come from Barad Dur and taken the Ring. Of the Valar wanting the Eruhini to fix their own mess; > There is nothing in the text that would suggest that this > is so. Again, no... not in LotR. However, in his Letters JRRT discusses it several times. This is why the Istari were sent with limited power to intervene rather than their full natural abilities. This is why the Valar didn't just come over and slap little Sauron around a little. > The eagles quite frequently involve themselves in the > fight against Sauron: In emergencies. They don't do the work FOR the Eruhini, but when things have gone wrong and the Children need a little helping hand the Eagles come along and lend it... but then it is back to the Eruhini doing their own job. My general point - there ARE reasonable explanations for why the Eagles would not work as a means of dealing with the Ring. Which (if any) might be the reason for it not being brought up doesn't matter... the point is that there are any number of logical answers to the potential 'plot hole'. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7qkneh$vil$1@netnews.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Lines: 55 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <21zz3.1388$K33.3761@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.54.213 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 936295614 130.244.54.213 (Thu, 02 Sep 1999 20:06:54 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 20:06:54 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@dialup54-4-21.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 20:02:31 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Sean Crist hath written: >Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > >>2: Sauron could cause Mount Doom to erupt - toasty Eagles > >I agree that it might be possible for Sauron to order Mount Doom to erupt. >However, he'd have to identify the threat in time. His restless Eye was constantly monitoring what happened in the world. I think there is no doubt that he would have identified Eagles flying towards Mordor; and that he had many other things in his arsenal than Mont Doom, Nazgûl and Orkish archers to deal with them. >might choose to view. Why would he spend so much of his limited time >surveilling what seems like a geographically impregnable frontier, >particularly since an attack from the uninhabited Brown Lands is so >unlikely? But we know that he did. That's how he nearly disccovered Frodo on Amon Hen. > >fly high enough for most of the flight. As for landing, we know that the >area around Mt. Doom is uninhabited; Sauron did not waste troops occupying >this area. Not so. He emptied Mordor for his panicky attack on Gondor after Aragorn had revealed himself; but it is stated that the road up to the Crack of Doom was constantly cleaned from flowing lava and kept in good condition by work-teams - which no doubt were supervised by armed Orcs or other soldiers. Besides, Barad-dûr was not all that distant from Mount Doom. >You're assuming, of course, that the entire frontier of Mordor is heavily >patrolled. According to Gandalf, it was, before the great attack on the West. >Ungol. It's quite likely that there are large areas of the Ered Lithui >where there are no standing patrols. But the Eagles had to get *into* Mordor unseen, which I think was impossible. Öjevind ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 02:12:33 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Fri Sep 3 19:25:03 1999 References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-006mnminnp320.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 4 Sep 1999 02:16:58 GMT Message-ID: <37d07fc2.44362257@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:43:51 -0400, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >My favorites are; > >1: There weren't any Eagles hanging around Rivendell >2: Sauron could cause Mount Doom to erupt - toasty Eagles >3: Orcs with bows could make short work of one Eagle >4: Hobbits were resistant to the Ring - Eagles weren't >5: The Valar were trying to get the Eruhini to clean up >their own mess for once w/o more than emergency help and >guidance - ergo the Eagles wouldn't do it for them Don't forget MY favorite reason: The Eagles were too busy recording "Hotel California," and so were not available to help with the Quest. "I **really** wish I'd burnt the Red Book." -- Frodo's Ghost MythTakes: Tolkien Parody http://mythtakes.tsx.org Ole and Sven and the Lutefisk of Doom http://olesven.tsx.org ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 11:21:02 -0400 Lines: 33 Message-ID: <37D138D7.9DB24E6E@erols.com> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7qkneh$vil$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <21zz3.1388$K33.3761@nntpserver.swip.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: m/c7vVX5S5eoqb72D6OOD2C/JuQcfAKOYJoFMNz8qr0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 1999 16:10:18 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > Sean Crist hath written: > >might choose to view. Why would he spend so much of his limited time > >surveilling what seems like a geographically impregnable frontier, > >particularly since an attack from the uninhabited Brown Lands is so > >unlikely? > > But we know that he did. That's how he nearly disccovered Frodo on Amon Hen. "Then at last his(Frodo) gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him. And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fiece eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was." Um, this sort of makes me think Sauron felt the Ring, but not exacly enough to know where it was, not that Sauron was watching surveilling his mountains. > Öjevind Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna the Jedi Knight "Nobody gets through 'War and Peace'!" Max, Get Smart Again ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7qkneh$vil$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <21zz3.1388$K33.3761@nntpserver.swip.net> <37D138D7.9DB24E6E@erols.com> Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Lines: 24 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.40.152 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 936471763 212.151.40.152 (Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:02:43 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:02:43 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-40-152.swipnet.se Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 20:58:16 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Solinas hath written: > > And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark > Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of > his gaze. A fiece eager will was there. It leaped towards him; > almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it > would nail him down, know just exactly where he was." > Um, this sort of makes me think Sauron felt the Ring, but not > exacly enough to know where it was, not that Sauron was watching > surveilling his mountains. I read it to mean that this Eye was constantly seeking out Middle-earth, watching everything. Above all, I take it to mean that anybody approaching Mordor in an obvious manner with the Ring would have been detected fairly soon. By the way, how was an Eagle supposed to carry the Ring? Hold it in a claw all the way? Inside a little box chained to its neck and meant to be opened by the Crack of Doom? Öjevind ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 02:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6554-37D2100A-27@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <19990902002844.22374.00002835@ng-bj1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQHCYQKC2qsnfP/6Qe/dxehlHKoQQIVAKkUpRopjc+Pf4W3XuRq+VYC9B6j Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Here's my views for anyone who cares: -Balrog Wings: Yes -Frodo spoke to Gollum on Mt. Doom. Ring influence was likely involved -Merry and Eowyn were both instrumental in killing the witch-king, but it was Eowyn who delivered the death blow -Elves had pointed ears -Dwarf women were bearded -Elves and Dwarves : it depended on the groups. Generally speaking, the Eldar and the Race of Durin were always allies against Morgoth and Sauron. Also, the Noldor most likely were the friendliest to the dwarves, because both groups were strongly connected to Aul=EB. -The movie: anti-unecessary plot butchering ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 09:06:11 -0400 Lines: 37 Message-ID: <37D26AC3.73920783@erols.com> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7qkneh$vil$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <21zz3.1388$K33.3761@nntpserver.swip.net> <37D138D7.9DB24E6E@erols.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: fBqd7WVwWQxBE4KddGylVmKDOcbaMTZUwHwgBt3DX2g= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Sep 1999 13:12:22 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > Solinas hath written: > > > > > > > And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark > > Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of > > his gaze. A fiece eager will was there. It leaped towards him; > > almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it > > would nail him down, know just exactly where he was." > > Um, this sort of makes me think Sauron felt the Ring, but not > > exacly enough to know where it was, not that Sauron was watching > > surveilling his mountains. > > I read it to mean that this Eye was constantly seeking out Middle-earth, > watching everything. Above all, I take it to mean that anybody approaching > Mordor in an obvious manner with the Ring would have been detected fairly > soon. By the way, how was an Eagle supposed to carry the Ring? Hold it in a > claw all the way? Inside a little box chained to its neck and meant to be > opened by the Crack of Doom? How would the Eagle open it? > Öjevind Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna the Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show ma the way! ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7qkneh$vil$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <21zz3.1388$K33.3761@nntpserver.swip.net> <37D138D7.9DB24E6E@erols.com> <37D26AC3.73920783@erols.com> Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Lines: 25 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <4gwA3.3900$K33.7243@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.61.168 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 936546432 212.151.61.168 (Sun, 05 Sep 1999 17:47:12 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 17:47:12 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-61-168.swipnet.se Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 17:42:43 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Solinas hath written: >"Öjevind Lång" wrote: > >> soon. By the way, how was an Eagle supposed to carry the Ring? Hold it in a >> claw all the way? Inside a little box chained to its neck and meant to be >> opened by the Crack of Doom? > > How would the Eagle open it? With it's beak? Actually, I wanted to point out that an Eagle might have problems of a quite everyday kind transportin the Rinng to Mount Doom. Öjevind "Those Ewoks sure are tasty. Better'n fried possum." (From "The Diary of a Redneck Jedi") ###### From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 5 Sep 1999 19:17:02 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 63 Message-ID: <7qufje$ehn$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7qkneh$vil$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <21zz3.1388$K33.3761@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.tli.de!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!news.voicenet.com!nntp.upenn.edu!babel.ling.upenn.edu!kurisuto In article <21zz3.1388$K33.3761@nntpserver.swip.net>, Öjevind Lång wrote: >His restless Eye was constantly monitoring what happened in the world. I >think there is no doubt that he would have identified Eagles flying towards >Mordor; and that he had many other things in his arsenal than Mont Doom, >Nazgûl and Orkish archers to deal with them. As Gollum says, "The Eye doesn't see everything; not yet." Even if we grant that Sauron saw the eagles, how would he get word to Orc archers in time? The eagles fly fast. They also can fly very high, almost certainly out of bowshot from the ground (e.g., when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are in Rohan, they twice see an eagle, and the second time, it is flying so high that only Legolas' elvish eyes can identify it). Now, as for the Nazgul, this is a more serious problem. We don't know whether their flying mounts are faster than eagles. It would be something of a race situation in any case. We also know that the eagles are willing to attack the flying Nazgul (as they attempt to do in the last battle), so perhaps some of the eagles could hold off the Nazgul long enough for an eagle carrying Frodo to make it to Mt. Doom. >But we know that he did. That's how he nearly disccovered Frodo on Amon Hen. As someone else already pointed out, this was a special case. Frodo was wearing the ring and was making use of the seeing powers conferred by Amon Hen to view Barad-dur. Sauron felt his gaze. When Frodo took off the Ring, Sauron was apparently no longer able to perceive him. >Not so. He emptied Mordor for his panicky attack on Gondor after Aragorn had >revealed himself; but it is stated that the road up to the Crack of Doom was >constantly cleaned from flowing lava and kept in good condition by >work-teams - which no doubt were supervised by armed Orcs or other soldiers. >Besides, Barad-dûr was not all that distant from Mount Doom. It's true that the path was kept clear, but I'm aware of nothing in the text to suggest that the desert around Mt. Doom was ordinarily inhabited even before the war broke out. There was no discussion of abandoned camps, etc.; and no water cisterns which would certainly have been noted. >>You're assuming, of course, that the entire frontier of Mordor is heavily >>patrolled. > >According to Gandalf, it was, before the great attack on the West. What quote are you referring to? I'm not aware that he says anywhere that all of the mountains around Mordor ever had large standing patrols. >But the Eagles had to get *into* Mordor unseen, which I think was >impossible. Even if they were seen, the only thing that could catch up with them in the fast, desparate flight would be the flying Nazgul, and I answered this concern above. \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu) --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ _| ,| ,| ----- _| ,| ,| [_] | | | [_] ###### From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 5 Sep 1999 19:19:05 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7qufn9$ud5$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <21zz3.1388$K33.3761@nntpserver.swip.net> <37D138D7.9DB24E6E@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.voicenet.com!nntp.upenn.edu!babel.ling.upenn.edu!kurisuto In article , Öjevind Lång wrote: >I read it to mean that this Eye was constantly seeking out Middle-earth, >watching everything. Above all, I take it to mean that anybody approaching >Mordor in an obvious manner with the Ring would have been detected fairly >soon. By the way, how was an Eagle supposed to carry the Ring? Hold it in a >claw all the way? Inside a little box chained to its neck and meant to be >opened by the Crack of Doom? An eagle flew the Ringbearer out of Mordor. Aside from pursuit by flying Nazgul, an eagle could fly the Ringbearer in, too. \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu) --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ _| ,| ,| ----- _| ,| ,| [_] | | | [_] ###### From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 5 Sep 1999 19:56:54 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 160 Message-ID: <7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7qkneh$vil$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!feeder.qis.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news.voicenet.com!nntp.upenn.edu!babel.ling.upenn.edu!kurisuto In article <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >You may note that Radagast was ALSO not at Rivendell. >Ergo... same problem. That's assuming that Radagast is the only one able to ask favors of the eagles. He did seem to have a special way with birds and animals, but Gandalf asks favors of the eagles on three occasions. I admit that on two of these occasions, he is merely answering the eagle's "Where to?" after having been picked up. However, he does ask the eagles to fly to Mt. Doom to pick up Frodo, which the eagles would presumably not have otherwise done. >> However, he'd have to identify the threat in time. > >Which should not have been a problem for an Ainu of his >power. Note that Gandalf seems to feel the Eagles coming >even in the midst of a battle; [...] >No palantir required. Can we say with certainty that >Sauron could do the same? No, but we don't have to. Even if we grant that Sauron would have immediately seen the threat, the only two responses we know that he might have made are: 1) He could have sent the flying Nazgul after them. If he's lucky, the Nazgul happen to be in the air at the moment already, and if he's more lucky, they can fly at least as fast as the eagles (which we don't know). The eagles might well be able to outrace the Nazgul to Mt. Doom, considering that they would have taken the Nazgul off guard; and some of the eagles might be able to attack the Nazgul (as they started to do in the last battle) and hold them off long enough to get the eagle carrying Frodo thru to Mt. Doom. 2) He might have been able to cause Mt. Doom to erupt and fry the eagles. However, we don't know that doing so would not also fry the Ring. >It >would be entirely reasonable for the characters in the >story to not bring up a plan they knew from the outset to >be pointless... To the contrary, the characters bring up many plans at the Council of Elrons which are rejected as unworkable. This would have been the perfect place to somehow plug this hole in the plot, but Tolkien stays silent here on that possibility. Given that every conceivable plan was being hashed over in great detail, one would expect it to be mentioned. The fact that it isn't mentioned here is, IMHO, one of the strongest arguments that Tolkien either simply didn't notice the problem at the time, or else that he deliberately stayed silent so as not to draw the reader's attention to the weakness. Note that the Council of Elrond could _not_ have ruled out this plan because of the threat of the flying Nazgul. They were not aware at that point that the Nazgul would be given winged mounts. Tolkien says in the introduction that a perfection in the story is not to be found. I think this is just plain one of the imperfections, as is the fact that Saruman didn't attempt to take Gandalf's ring from him during his imprisonment. LotR is a great story by all accounts, but not a perfect one, by Tolkien's own admission. >Actually, my recollection is that Mount Doom normally WAS >garrisoned... only having been abandoned during the time >of Frodo and Sam's journey due to all the forces being >called away to take part in the final battle at the Black >Gate. Even if the passage to this effect is nothing more >than a figment of my memory.... we still have no evidence >that this was NOT the case that I know of. I think there is evidence: namely, there are no water cisterns around Mt. Doom. If the area had been inhabited, there would have to have been some kind of supplies of water. We know that Frodo and Sam could not find water in that area. >> I'm aware of nothing in the text which would suggest that >> an eagle could not resist the Ring long enough to make >> the flight. > >In the text of LotR? No. Outside of it JRRT has some >letters which indicate that Frodo's effort was doomed from >the start and that nobody could have willingly tossed in >the Ring... which would include the Eagles or an Eagle >borne Frodo. The Wise could see something of 'what is >meant to be'.... Gandalf foresees that Gollum will have >some important part to play before the end. As such they >could simply KNOW that the Eagles were not the way to go... >and if the Eagles HAD been used, then even if all had gone >well - still Frodo would have failed the impossible task in >the end and Sauron would have come from Barad Dur and taken >the Ring. I think we could make a strong case that the effects of the Ring are cumulative over time. I think we could also make a good case that Frodo's resistance to the Ring was greatly weakened during his long and grueling travel into and thru Mordor. If he could have circumvented that journey by taking a quick eagle flight instead, he would have been in much better shape to resist the Ring. In any case, consider the explanation you've given. Picture this scene from the Council of Elrond: "But a journey into Mordor is too perilous on foot," said Glorfindel. "For one must either pass thru Cirith Ungol or Cirith Gorgor; elsewhere, the mountains around Mordor are impassable. So let us send messengers to the eagles of the Misty Mountains, and ask that they bear the Ringbearer over the Ered Lithui and to Orodruin." "Nay," said Gandalf. "We cannot do that, for I feel in my heart that this creature Gollum has some role yet to play; and he will not be able to play it if we follow your plan." Supposing that Glorfindel had said the words I've given him above. I challenge anyone to come up with a response from Gandalf which matches your general explanation, and which sounds less hokey than what I made Gandalf say here. Gandalf often has odd hunches which foreshadow things later in the story, but I just can't see him foretelling the future in such specific terms as he'd be forced to do here. >Of the Valar wanting the Eruhini to fix their own mess; >> There is nothing in the text that would suggest that this >> is so. > >Again, no... not in LotR. However, in his Letters JRRT >discusses it several times. This is why the Istari were >sent with limited power to intervene rather than their full >natural abilities. This is why the Valar didn't just come >over and slap little Sauron around a little. It seems to me that the powers of the Istari are _consistently_ limited; it's not the case that they perform this act and not the next one because of some interdiction from the Valar. For example, Gandalf can do various things with fire, but he never declines to do so in a particular case on the grounds that the Valar would consider this to be too much of an intervention. What powers Gandalf retains, he can use freely, it seems. The eagles are always able to fly. They never refuse to carry anyone on the grounds that the Valar have prohibited it, just as Gandalf never declines to use fire on the grounds that the Valar prohibited it in just this one special case. >My general point - there ARE reasonable explanations for >why the Eagles would not work as a means of dealing with >the Ring. Which (if any) might be the reason for it not >being brought up doesn't matter... the point is that there >are any number of logical answers to the potential 'plot >hole'. Well, for reasons I've given, I take the opposite position. \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu) --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ _| ,| ,| ----- _| ,| ,| [_] | | | [_] ###### Message-ID: <37D320B6.1C5415AC@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7qkneh$vil$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.8.153.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 936582927 209.8.153.8 (Sun, 05 Sep 1999 21:55:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 21:55:27 EDT Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 22:02:30 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!gate.bcandid.com.MISMATCH!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Sean Crist wrote: > > In article <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: ... > be found. I think this is just plain one of the imperfections, as is > the fact that Saruman didn't attempt to take Gandalf's ring from him during > his imprisonment. LotR is a great story by all accounts, but not a perfect > one, by Tolkien's own admission. I think it's quite reasonable to assume that Saruman didn't know that Gandalf had it. The only reason that Frodo could see Galadriel's was that he was carrying the One Ring. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:24:30 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 221 Message-ID: <7r0mr0$8dt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7qkneh$vil$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.194 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 936631968 8637 12.79.24.194 (6 Sep 1999 15:32:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Sep 1999 15:32:48 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspump.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Sean Crist wrote in message news:7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu... > That's assuming that Radagast is the only one able to ask > favors of the eagles. Back up. We weren't talking about >asking favors< of the Eagles... we were talking about >contacting< the Eagles. I said that there weren't any Eagles at Rivendell. You quite rightly said that Radagast seemed to be able to contact them... at which juncture I pointed out that Radagast was ALSO not at Rivendell. The issue here is that even if we assume the Eagles would just jump at the chance to fly the Ring to Mount Doom... there weren't any Eagles THERE and there wasn't any obvious way to GET an Eagle there. We might >assume< that Gandalf could call them in (though this makes his request of Radagast seem strange) or that Elrond could contact them (in some of the drafts before Radagast came in it was Elrond who'd arranged for them to gather news by sending messengers to them)... but at that point we are making assumptions about the abilities of the characters for the purpose of >creating< a plot hole. As the books stand there aren't any Eagles readily available when they are making plans to dispose of the Ring. Provided an Eagle could be obtained I grant you it is quite possible they could be asked to perform some favor... though I still find 'please go destroy the Dark Lord for us' a rather extreme / unlikely 'favor'. > Even if we grant that Sauron would have immediately seen > the threat, the only two responses we know that he might > have made are: > 1) He could have sent the flying Nazgul after them. If > he's lucky, the Nazgul happen to be in the air at the > moment already, and if he's more lucky, they can fly at > least as fast as the eagles (which we don't know). The > eagles might well be able to outrace the Nazgul to Mt. > Doom, considering that they would have taken the Nazgul > off guard; and some of the eagles might be able to attack > the Nazgul (as they started to do in the last battle) and > hold them off long enough to get the eagle carrying Frodo > thru to Mt. Doom. Depending on how far off Sauron saw the Eagle(s) coming he could have the Nazgul perched all around the rim of Mount Doom just waiting. Assuming he only noticed the giant Eagles when they actually entered his territory... well, the Nazgul steeds would presumably be at Minas Morgul and/or Barad-dur... which are both fairly close to Orodruin compared to the general perimeter of Mordor. If the Nazgul had a shorter distance to fly they wouldn't have to be faster. Also, just how long do you think it would TAKE an Eagle to fly that far? Assuming they set it all up so they could start just a little ways outside Mordor and 'sprint' in for the drop... best case scenario we are looking at about sixty miles. That is going to take twelve minutes even if the Eagles fly at 300mph (which to me seems unlikely). That seems plenty of time for Sauron to respond. > 2) He might have been able to cause Mt. Doom to erupt and > fry the eagles. However, we don't know that doing so > would not also fry the Ring. Consider the darkness that Sauron unleashed at the start of the war. If the 'Eagle plan' were somehow implemented he could have used that against them... choking fumes, clouds of blinding vapor, searing heat... enough to take out an Eagle easily, but no more effect on the Ring than Frodo's fireplace at Bag End. > To the contrary, the characters bring up many plans at > the Council of Elrons which are rejected as unworkable. Sure, as someone or other does not know all the facts and thinks this might be a way to go. Your view is apparently that someone should have said the same of the Eagles... my point is that if there were an Eagle 'parked out front' they might have had a reason to, but under the actual circumstances there wasn't alot of reason for Boromir or somebody else unfamiliar with the Eagles to come up with such a plan. > Note that the Council of Elrond could _not_ have ruled > out this plan because of the threat of the flying > Nazgul. They were not aware at that point that the > Nazgul would be given winged mounts. Quite true... and not. They were unaware of the flying Nazgul. However, they might well have been aware that any such attempt would fail without knowing that the Nazgul (or whatever else) would be the cause of it. > I think this is just plain one of the imperfections, as > is the fact that Saruman didn't attempt to take Gandalf's > ring from him during his imprisonment. Nor his staff. Nor apparently his sword. Nor kill him. Nor question him after the initial encounter. We can assume this to be a plot hole, but again... there are quite plausible explanations within the story for this. My view has always been that Saruman was content to imprison Gandalf rather than risking his own life trying to fight him for Narya... or sending his troops - in the narrow confines of the tower Gandalf could probably have held them off indefinitely (use the same sort of door binding he did in Moria). So, rather than have a wizard duel on his hands Saruman locked Gandalf in the tower... and rather than assure his own demise by attacking Gandalf went along with it. > I think there is evidence: namely, there are no water > cisterns around Mt. Doom. How do we know this? Before you say we didn't see any... well, we didn't see any ANYWHERE in Mordor (or anywhere else for that matter). Yet there were troops all over the plain between Cirith Ungol and Mount Doom. Sam and Frodo even discuss (with help from the narrator) the issue of food and water supplies for these troops... they were apparently produced by slaves around the Sea of Nurnen and distributed. The same could be done for troops on Mount Doom. Even a small squad of Orcs on the mountain would have stopped the whole thing either by shooting the Eagle with arrows or killing Frodo when he disembarked to go inside and destroy the Ring. > I think we could make a strong case that the effects of > the Ring are cumulative over time. Absolutely. However, Frodo was unable to toss the Ring into his >fireplace< in the Shire before he got anywhere near Rivendell and the plan was made. Think about that. > If he could have circumvented that journey by taking a > quick eagle flight instead, he would have been in much > better shape to resist the Ring. Or perhaps the reverse... without the long struggle, wisdom and 'inner strength' he gained through resisting the Ring on the journey there he might well have been quickly overwhelmed by its rapid increase in power as he neared Mount Doom and have put it on / claimed it sooner. The Ring was growing in power as it approached Orodruin, but so was Frodo - if he flew in on an Eagle and did not have time to develop this strength of resolve he might have been the more easily overwhelmed. In no case do I think he could ever have actually thrown the Ring in... that attempt was doomed from the start, as can be seen by his inability to toss it into the fireplace. Makes the whole plan seem rather mad doesn't it? Something like Gandalf sending thirteen Dwarves and a Hobbit against Smaug... yet he did it anyway, because he >knew< this course of action would have a chance of achieving his aims. > "Nay," said Gandalf. "We cannot do that, for I feel in > my heart that this creature Gollum has some role yet to > play; and he will not be able to play it if we follow > your plan." > Supposing that Glorfindel had said the words I've given > him above. I challenge anyone to come up with a response > from Gandalf which matches your general explanation, and > which sounds less hokey than what I made Gandalf say > here. "'Nay,' said Gandalf. 'Did you not hear Elrond? You, Glorfindel, more than any should know that the Eagles are servants of the Powers of the West. Just as they shall not receive this thing from us nor will they take on the task of destroying it for us. They have sent what aid they would but it is our task to set right what has been done wrongly.'" Note, Gandalf could say this as a result of foreseeing that such a plan would fail... he needn't go into the details, only say that it would not work. Or if you prefer; "'Nay,' said Gandalf. 'That way lies ruin. It is given to me to see much which is far off, and I say to you that such an open move would be long perceived by the Enemy and fail err it came anywhere close to its goal. If we go we must go by secret ways, not aloft with great Gwaihir for all to see.'" > What powers Gandalf retains, he can use freely, it seems. Not entirely freely. The Istari were not supposed to set themselves up as lords or rulers - though their powers could clearly help them do so. This is one of the mistakes which Saruman made. They were also not supposed to fight Sauron directly (which is just as well as he'd have swatted them in their lessened state). They were sent to HELP the Eruhini defeat Sauron... not to do it themselves. Leading Frodo into Mordor would be >helping< carrying him there in a flash would be doing the job themselves (though this is assuming that the Eagles would be under the same strictures as the Istari). > Well, for reasons I've given, I take the opposite > position. Where you see plot holes I see only >potential< plot holes which appear when we make reasonable assumptions counter to the plot and disappear if we make reasonable assumptions in favor of it. Glass half full rather than half empty. There ARE logical explanations for these things - ergo, they are not in my mind 'plot holes'. That would only be the case if there was no conceivable reason for things to have been done as they were in the story. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37d40b97.302976461@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7qkneh$vil$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7r0mr0$8dt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-71.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 26 Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 18:55:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 936644040 207.212.198.18 (Mon, 06 Sep 1999 11:54:00 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 11:54:00 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:24:30 -0400, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >Not entirely freely. The Istari were not supposed to set >themselves up as lords or rulers - though their powers >could clearly help them do so. This is one of the mistakes >which Saruman made. They were also not supposed to fight >Sauron directly (which is just as well as he'd have swatted >them in their lessened state). They were sent to HELP the What the Appendices say is that they were "forbidden to match [Sauron's] power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force". The prohibition against directly attacking Sauron didn't really become important until the Ring showed up. >Eruhini defeat Sauron... not to do it themselves. Leading >Frodo into Mordor would be >helping< carrying him there in >a flash would be doing the job themselves (though this is >assuming that the Eagles would be under the same strictures >as the Istari). The Eagles are actually under a much tougher set of rules. They're not supposed to intervene *at all*. As Gwaihir said, "I was sent to bear tidings, not burdens." (Hmm. You think the Ring counts as a 'burden'?) ###### From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 6 Sep 1999 19:38:53 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 42 Message-ID: <7r158d$8f9$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7quo6v$gi4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.upenn.edu!babel.ling.upenn.edu!kurisuto In article <7quo6v$gi4$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Max Moroz wrote: >I think Istari powers were not physically constrained by the Valar, but >only morally. Istari's mission was to help ME without intervening too >much. So as long as they remained faithful to their mission, they used >their powers very sparingly. If this were true, wouldn't we expect the corrupt Saruman to use his greater range of powers? He was no longer morally constrained. There's no indication that he did so; indeed, he seems to have lost his power rather than gained it as he became corrupt. >Carrying the Ring to Orodruin would have clearly been the strongest >possible intervention; after all, it is equivalent to destroying >Sauron. If any intervention is too big, this certainly is. So if >Eagles' views on intervention were the same as Istari's, they would >refuse the ring-trafficking engagement. (This still does not explain >why the issue wasn't raised at the Council; many participants wouldn't >know all that, and Eagles should have been their first thought.) I don't see how an eagle using its wings is too much intervention, while a hobbit using his feet is not. >Of course, Eagles are not Istari, and have no mission to be faithful >to. Whether their ancestry makes them dislike intervention is an open >question (I rather think they it doesn't as Eagles seemed to care >little about high politics). Well, the argument that others have made previously is that the eagles were originally the representatives of Manwe; and since the Valar have withdrawn from direct intervention in Middle-Earth, the eagles have to do so too. My response is that if this were so, we'd expect the eagles to have withdrawn to Valinor. \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu) --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ _| ,| ,| ----- _| ,| ,| [_] | | | [_] ###### From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 6 Sep 1999 19:39:46 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 16 Message-ID: <7r15a2$50p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <37D320B6.1C5415AC@wizard.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.voicenet.com!nntp.upenn.edu!babel.ling.upenn.edu!kurisuto In article <37D320B6.1C5415AC@wizard.net>, James Kuyper Jr. wrote: >I think it's quite reasonable to assume that Saruman didn't know that >Gandalf had it. The only reason that Frodo could see Galadriel's was >that he was carrying the One Ring. It is explicitly stated somewhere (Unfinished Tales?) that Saruman knew where Cirdan had bestowed the Ring, and that he begrudged it. \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu) --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ _| ,| ,| ----- _| ,| ,| [_] | | | [_] ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 20:13:27 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 226 Message-ID: <7r1lqt$j9l$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7r0mr0$8dt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7r19lt$e0k$1@netnews.upenn.edu> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.204 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 936663709 19765 12.79.56.204 (7 Sep 1999 00:21:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 1999 00:21:49 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Sean Crist wrote in message news:7r19lt$e0k$1@netnews.upenn.edu... > If I were planning an eagle-based entry to Mordor, here's > how I'd do it. I'd have the Company travel at they did in > the book, going down the Anduin on boats, but abandoning > them on the east shore and going eastward on foot north > of the Emyn Muil and across the uninhabited Brown Lands. > When they're roughly straight north of Mt. Doom, I would > have them travel south on foot until they reach the Ered > Lithui. I'd have a pre-arranged time and place where the > eagles are to fly in and meet them. Then they'd make the > quick, desparate flight to Mt. Doom in a single hop. Well, tell me this; If you think the logical way to do it would be this far into the future... How do you know that isn't precisely what Gandalf had planned to do? If you can't get your mind around the idea of the Eagles thing being a 'bad idea' (tm)... well then, the story fully allows for your idea to have been Gandalf and Elrond's plan all along. > The eagles and involved several times that we know of in > the struggle against evil. They rescue Thorin & Co.; > they rescue Gandalf from Orthanc and again from Zirak- > Zigil; they attack the Nazgul in the last battle; they > rescue Frodo and Sam from the eruption of Mt. Doom, etc. > Why would they refuse to help on this particular > occasion? I've answered this before. Those other circumstances were emergencies where they merely helped out briefly... rescuing the characters from a hopeless situation. To take the Ring to Mount Doom themselves would be a very different thing... they'd be taking on the task of defeating Sauron themselves rather than just lending a helping wing to keep the quest from certain failure. Likewise with Eru's intervention in sending Gandalf back... the Valar's plan had failed, so he stepped in to put things back on track - just as the Eagles do from time to time. Eru COULD have taken care of the whole thing without half trying... but he didn't. He lent just so much aid as was needed and no more. Ditto for the Valar. And ditto in my opinion for the Eagles. > Looking at the map here, Mt. Doom is about equidistant > from Minas Morgul and from the point just north of the > Ered Lithui where I'd have the flight start. Barad-dur > is a little closer, and the Black Gate is a little > farther. > Let's assume a best case situation for Sauron, where the > Nazgul happen to already be in the air no further away > from Mt. Doom than the eagles; Heh, well given that Barad-dur is closer to Orodruin than that it doesn't seem much like a best case. :) > As for this leaving plenty of time for Sauron to respond, > what response could he make, other than sending the > Nazgul? Can the Nazgul outfly the eagles? Tell me this... what was the danger on the Hill of Seeing? Sauron could feel the Ring and almost found where it was. Do you believe he would have been able to DO something if he had spotted Frodo? I >do<. If you assume that the danger was only of Sauron knowing where the Ring was then this is not a concern... but I believe it is implied he could have influenced Frodo's will if he had found him. I think he could have done the same had he seen this Ring bearing Eagle flying into his domain. > Mt. Doom was engulfed in an extraordinarily strong > eruption when the eagles flew in to rescue Frodo and > Sam. It's explicitly stated that there were fumes in the > air. Yes, and that it was dangerous to the Eagles. > Even if Sauron can order Mt. Doom to erupt at a drop of a > hat without having to first build up pressure, etc., As noted before... he presumably HAD been preparing it for the vast cloud of darkness that it let out. > can he make it erupt any worse than it did when the Ring > was destroyed? He covered the land for miles around beneath a blanket of darkness. I think the first fury of unleashing that effect would be considerably worse from the Eagle's perspective than a relatively 'normal' volcanic eruption... which did not put out anywhere near that quantity of ash and cloud. > How would they have known this? How could Gandalf have known that Gollum would have a part to play yet? How did Halbarad know his death waited beyond the Paths of the Dead? They just KNEW. > We know that Saruman coveted rings of power, and that he > specifically coveted the one that Gandalf had. Saruman > knew where Cirdan had bestowed his ring, and begrudged > it. Saruman was willing to go to considerable lengths to > acquire rings of power. Sure. However, direct combat with another Istar was presumably beyond those lengths. > It's explicitly stated that Sam and Frodo had drained > their water bottles and had no more water to drink when > they reached Mt. Doom. Tolkien couldn't have said this > if there had been cisterns in the vicinity of Mt. Doom; > if there had been, Sam and Frodo could presumably have > refilled their bottles. Did Frodo and Sam walk all the way around Mount Doom? No. Ergo, there could have been water on some part of the mountain they never saw - even leaving aside that water could be carried in to supply a small garrison. > They could have, but there's no indication that any > squads of Orcs were stationed there. And no indication that there weren't. :) > So why did Gandalf send him on the quest, if it was so > obvious that Frodo would not be able to throw the Ring > in? Why did he send thirteen Dwarves and a Hobbit on a quest as his means of dealing with a dragon he knew they could not possibly slay? See below; > All that Gandalf had was a vague hunch that Gollum still > had some role to play, and there's nothing to connect > this hunch with Frodo's ability or inability to destroy > the Ring himself. I don't think so. I believe Gandalf had a clear indication that this was the 'proper path'... as with the earlier quest; "The existence of a secret door, only discoverably by Dwarves, made it seem at least possible to find out something of the Dragon's doings, perhaps even to recover some gold, or some heirloom to ease his [Thorin's] heart's longing. 'But that was not enough for me [Gandalf]. I knew in my heart that Bilbo must go with him, or the whole quest would be a failure - or, as I should say now, the far more important events by the way would not come to pass.'" UT, The Quest of Erebor Put simply; Gandalf knew that not sending Bilbo would be a disaster - and just as simply he could have known that using the Eagles would have ended in failure. Of the view that it might be harder for Frodo to resist the Ring if rushed into Mordor; > Possible. However, I don't think that there's anything > specific in the text to support this view. Nor of the view you put forward of it being easier. That is my POINT. We do not know. You are coming to a 'plot hole' conclusion by assuming the worst. Make equally valid positive assumptions and the 'plot hole' goes away. > Okay, let's back up a little. In the post I was > responding to, it was suggested that the "eagles" plan > could not succeed, because Gollum would not be around to > fortuituously accidentally fall into the fire with the > Ring. This might well be true, but my point was that > this information was not obvious to the Council of > Elrond. All that they had was a vague hunch by Gandalf > that Gollum would have something to do with something at > some future point. My challenge was for anyone to put > appropriate words in Gandalf's mouth stating _this hunch_ > as the reason why the "eagles" plan couldn't work. See above. Gandalf need not know >why< the Eagle plan would not work... he could simply have known. This might well be because Gollum would not be present, but Gandalf need not have known that to speak against the Eagle plan. "'Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield!' I said. 'If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you.'" Gandalf didn't know WHY it would succeed with Bilbo and fail without him... but he knew that to be the case. > I agree entirely that such an addition would definitively > plug the hole in the plot. This is the sort of solution > that I'm looking for in the actual text. My whole point > has been that there isn't one; the possibility is left > open. That nobody came up with the idea does not make it a hole in the plot. Nobody suggested just asking Tom Bombadil to walk over and toss the Ring into Mount Doom either... and in one of his notes JRRT says that Tom COULD HAVE if he had only been asked. It is (if anything) an oversight. There are alot of things they COULD have tried or discussed. That nobody suggested Eagles implies to me that those there either didn't think of the Eagles or knew (for whatever reason) that such a path would not work. > This would work too. Once again, my point is that there > is nothing like this in the text to solve the problem. There is nothing in the text to explain how Shadowfax got back to Rohan when Gandalf parted with him... is this a plot hole or can we make the reasonable assumption that he ran back home? That something is not in the text does not a plot hole make in my view... it has to be something which is not in the text and has no reasonable explanation. ###### From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 6 Sep 1999 20:54:21 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 269 Message-ID: <7r19lt$e0k$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7r0mr0$8dt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!info1.fnal.gov!ice.isc-net.upenn.edu!nntp.upenn.edu!babel.ling.upenn.edu!kurisuto In article <7r0mr0$8dt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >The issue here is that even if we assume the Eagles would >just jump at the chance to fly the Ring to Mount Doom... >there weren't any Eagles THERE and there wasn't any obvious >way to GET an Eagle there. If I were planning an eagle-based entry to Mordor, here's how I'd do it. I'd have the Company travel at they did in the book, going down the Anduin on boats, but abandoning them on the east shore and going eastward on foot north of the Emyn Muil and across the uninhabited Brown Lands. When they're roughly straight north of Mt. Doom, I would have them travel south on foot until they reach the Ered Lithui. I'd have a pre-arranged time and place where the eagles are to fly in and meet them. Then they'd make the quick, desparate flight to Mt. Doom in a single hop. >We might >assume< that Gandalf could call them in (though >this makes his request of Radagast seem strange) or that >Elrond could contact them (in some of the drafts before >Radagast came in it was Elrond who'd arranged for them to >gather news by sending messengers to them)... but at that >point we are making assumptions about the abilities of the >characters for the purpose of >creating< a plot hole. As >the books stand there aren't any Eagles readily available >when they are making plans to dispose of the Ring. The Company stayed at Rivendell for a few weeks while the land was being scouted. During this time, Gandalf could have walked up to the Misty Mountains if necessary and hailed the eagles in their eyries. >Provided an Eagle could be obtained I grant you it is quite >possible they could be asked to perform some favor... >though I still find 'please go destroy the Dark Lord for >us' a rather extreme / unlikely 'favor'. The eagles and involved several times that we know of in the struggle against evil. They rescue Thorin & Co.; they rescue Gandalf from Orthanc and again from Zirak-Zigil; they attack the Nazgul in the last battle; they rescue Frodo and Sam from the eruption of Mt. Doom, etc. Why would they refuse to help on this particular occasion? >Depending on how far off Sauron saw the Eagle(s) coming he >could have the Nazgul perched all around the rim of Mount >Doom just waiting. Less likely if you go with the plan I outlined above. Even if Sauron somehow saw the eagles approaching before they met up with the Ringbearer just north of Mordor, how would Sauron make the mental leap from "The eagles are coming" to "They must be trying to destroy the Ring, so I'd better send the Nazgul to Orodruin"? Sauron didn't figure out the meaning of the spies slipping thru Cirith Ungol, even with a great deal more time to ponder the problem. It wasn't until Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own that Sauron identified the threat. >Assuming he only noticed the giant >Eagles when they actually entered his territory... well, >the Nazgul steeds would presumably be at Minas Morgul >and/or Barad-dur... which are both fairly close to Orodruin >compared to the general perimeter of Mordor. If the Nazgul >had a shorter distance to fly they wouldn't have to be >faster. Looking at the map here, Mt. Doom is about equidistant from Minas Morgul and from the point just north of the Ered Lithui where I'd have the flight start. Barad-dur is a little closer, and the Black Gate is a little farther. We know that the flying Nazgul sometimes ranged farther away (even as far as Orthanc, and perhaps even to Hollin, depending on how you interpret the shadow that momentarily blots out the stars). Let's assume a best case situation for Sauron, where the Nazgul happen to already be in the air no further away from Mt. Doom than the eagles; where Sauron is aware of the flight as soon as it begins; and where Sauron figures out the intent of the attack right away. In this best case, assuming the Nazgul fly roughly as fast as the eagles, the Nazgul would probably arrive at Orodruin at roughly the same time. Even in this extreme best case for Sauron, some of the eagles might be able to hold off the Nazgul long enough to let Frodo run in. >Also, just how long do you think it would TAKE an >Eagle to fly that far? Assuming they set it all up so they >could start just a little ways outside Mordor and 'sprint' >in for the drop... best case scenario we are looking at >about sixty miles. That is going to take twelve minutes >even if the Eagles fly at 300mph (which to me seems unlikely). That >seems plenty of time for Sauron to >respond. We don't know exactly. The eagles obviously rescue Frodo and Sam pretty quickly. The text doesn't tell us how long this flight takes, but as very rough guess based on the narrative, I don't see how it could have taken more than a half hour from the time Gollum falls into the fire to the time that the eagles pick up Frodo and Sam. As for this leaving plenty of time for Sauron to respond, what response could he make, other than sending the Nazgul? Can the Nazgul outfly the eagles? >Consider the darkness that Sauron unleashed at the start of >the war. If the 'Eagle plan' were somehow implemented he >could have used that against them... choking fumes, clouds >of blinding vapor, searing heat... enough to take out an >Eagle easily, but no more effect on the Ring than Frodo's >fireplace at Bag End. Mt. Doom was engulfed in an extraordinarily strong eruption when the eagles flew in to rescue Frodo and Sam. It's explicitly stated that there were fumes in the air. Yet they somehow managed to navagate their way in and back out. Even if Sauron can order Mt. Doom to erupt at a drop of a hat without having to first build up pressure, etc., can he make it erupt any worse than it did when the Ring was destroyed? >Sure, as someone or other does not know all the facts and >thinks this might be a way to go. Your view is apparently >that someone should have said the same of the Eagles... my >point is that if there were an Eagle 'parked out front' >they might have had a reason to, but under the actual >circumstances there wasn't alot of reason for Boromir or >somebody else unfamiliar with the Eagles to come up with >such a plan. The eagles had been explicitly discussed in the conversation; Gandalf does so when describing his rescue. He also described how Radagast conveyed messages to the eagles. So everyone present would have been aware of these facts, and should have had eagles fresh on their minds when they turned to deciding a course of action. Yet nobody mentions them as a possible source of help. >Quite true... and not. They were unaware of the flying >Nazgul. However, they might well have been aware that any >such attempt would fail without knowing that the Nazgul >(or whatever else) would be the cause of it. How would they have known this? If they knew of other hazards to flying into Mordor, we aren't told of them. >> I think this is just plain one of the imperfections, as >> is the fact that Saruman didn't attempt to take Gandalf's >> ring from him during his imprisonment. > >Nor his staff. Nor apparently his sword. Nor kill him. >Nor question him after the initial encounter. We know that Saruman coveted rings of power, and that he specifically coveted the one that Gandalf had. Saruman knew where Cirdan had bestowed his ring, and begrudged it. Saruman was willing to go to considerable lengths to acquire rings of power. >> I think there is evidence: namely, there are no water >> cisterns around Mt. Doom. > >How do we know this? Before you say we didn't see any... >well, we didn't see any ANYWHERE in Mordor (or anywhere >else for that matter). This is incorrect; Sam and Frodo stop at a cistern along the road before they turn east across Gorgoroth. The water is described as having been muddied by the orcs. It's explicitly stated that Sam and Frodo had drained their water bottles and had no more water to drink when they reached Mt. Doom. Tolkien couldn't have said this if there had been cisterns in the vicinity of Mt. Doom; if there had been, Sam and Frodo could presumably have refilled their bottles. >Even a small squad of Orcs on the mountain would >have stopped the whole thing either by shooting the Eagle >with arrows or killing Frodo when he disembarked to go >inside and destroy the Ring. They could have, but there's no indication that any squads of Orcs were stationed there. >> I think we could make a strong case that the effects of >> the Ring are cumulative over time. > >Absolutely. However, Frodo was unable to toss the Ring >into his >fireplace< in the Shire before he got anywhere >near Rivendell and the plan was made. Think about that. So why did Gandalf send him on the quest, if it was so obvious that Frodo would not be able to throw the Ring in? All that Gandalf had was a vague hunch that Gollum still had some role to play, and there's nothing to connect this hunch with Frodo's ability or inability to destroy the Ring himself. >> If he could have circumvented that journey by taking a >> quick eagle flight instead, he would have been in much >> better shape to resist the Ring. > >Or perhaps the reverse... without the long struggle, wisdom >and 'inner strength' he gained through resisting the Ring >on the journey there he might well have been quickly >overwhelmed by its rapid increase in power as he neared >Mount Doom and have put it on / claimed it sooner. Possible. However, I don't think that there's anything specific in the text to support this view. >> "Nay," said Gandalf. "We cannot do that, for I feel in >> my heart that this creature Gollum has some role yet to >> play; and he will not be able to play it if we follow >> your plan." > >> Supposing that Glorfindel had said the words I've given >> him above. I challenge anyone to come up with a response >> from Gandalf which matches your general explanation, and >> which sounds less hokey than what I made Gandalf say >> here. > >"'Nay,' said Gandalf. 'Did you not hear Elrond? You, >Glorfindel, more than any should know that the Eagles are >servants of the Powers of the West. Just as they shall not >receive this thing from us nor will they take on the task >of destroying it for us. They have sent what aid they >would but it is our task to set right what has been done >wrongly.'" Okay, let's back up a little. In the post I was responding to, it was suggested that the "eagles" plan could not succeed, because Gollum would not be around to fortuituously accidentally fall into the fire with the Ring. This might well be true, but my point was that this information was not obvious to the Council of Elrond. All that they had was a vague hunch by Gandalf that Gollum would have something to do with something at some future point. My challenge was for anyone to put appropriate words in Gandalf's mouth stating _this hunch_ as the reason why the "eagles" plan couldn't work. Now, as the words that _you_ put in Gandalf's mouth: I agree entirely that such an addition would definitively plug the hole in the plot. This is the sort of solution that I'm looking for in the actual text. My whole point has been that there isn't one; the possibility is left open. >"'Nay,' said Gandalf. 'That way lies ruin. It is given to >me to see much which is far off, and I say to you that such >an open move would be long perceived by the Enemy and fail >err it came anywhere close to its goal. If we go we must >go by secret ways, not aloft with great Gwaihir for all to >see.'" This would work too. Once again, my point is that there is nothing like this in the text to solve the problem. >> What powers Gandalf retains, he can use freely, it seems. > >Not entirely freely. The Istari were not supposed to set >themselves up as lords or rulers - though their powers >could clearly help them do so. This is one of the mistakes >which Saruman made. They were also not supposed to fight >Sauron directly (which is just as well as he'd have swatted >them in their lessened state). I think this is more a statement about what goals the Istari are supposed to use their powers to accomplish. It's not a statement about the particular circumstances where they're allowed or not allowed to use what powers they have. For example, Gandalf never refuses to use the powers which we see him using elsewhere (e.g. setting trees on fire) on the grounds that the Valar would consider this particular case to be too great an intervention. Even if there were such a case, there's no indication that such a restriction applies to the eagles as it does to the Istari. \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu) --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ _| ,| ,| ----- _| ,| ,| [_] | | | [_] ###### From: Max Moroz Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 21:22:53 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 82 Message-ID: <7r1bb4$8kd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7quo6v$gi4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7r158d$8f9$1@netnews.upenn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.185.42.14 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Sep 06 21:22:53 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x21.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 38.185.42.14 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmmoroz Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <7r158d$8f9$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) wrote: > In article <7quo6v$gi4$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Max Moroz wrote: > > >I think Istari powers were not physically constrained by the Valar, but > >only morally. Istari's mission was to help ME without intervening too > >much. So as long as they remained faithful to their mission, they used > >their powers very sparingly. > > If this were true, wouldn't we expect the corrupt Saruman to use his > greater range of powers? He was no longer morally constrained. There's no > indication that he did so; indeed, he seems to have lost his power rather > than gained it as he became corrupt. I do think Saruman used the full range of his powers, against the moral rules. And yes, those powers diminished due to his corruption. In other words, let's say Saruman's powers were originally P0, his supposed usage of them was SU0, and his actual usage AU0: SU0 < AU0 = P0. As he got more and more corrupt, his powers became P1 < P0, and his actual usage AU1 also had to fall, as AU1 = P1. Clearly, P1 could have declined even below the original SU0. That would mean AU1 < SU0, i.e., Saruman ended up with less powers at their illegal full force than his original "legal" (restricted) force. > >Carrying the Ring to Orodruin would have clearly been the strongest > >possible intervention; after all, it is equivalent to destroying > >Sauron. If any intervention is too big, this certainly is. So if > >Eagles' views on intervention were the same as Istari's, they would > >refuse the ring-trafficking engagement. (This still does not explain > >why the issue wasn't raised at the Council; many participants wouldn't > >know all that, and Eagles should have been their first thought.) > > I don't see how an eagle using its wings is too much intervention, while a > hobbit using his feet is not. Oh, but I mean "intervention from Valar". If Eagles are viewed as representatives of Valar by virtue of their descent, then their actions are interventions. And this sort of intervention far exceeds anything else imaginable. If Hobbits were dec > >Of course, Eagles are not Istari, and have no mission to be faithful > >to. Whether their ancestry makes them dislike intervention is an open > >question (I rather think they it doesn't as Eagles seemed to care > >little about high politics). > > Well, the argument that others have made previously is that the eagles were > originally the representatives of Manwe; and since the Valar have withdrawn > from direct intervention in Middle-Earth, the eagles have to do so too. That's exactly what I assumed when I said "it's too big an intervention". Now I'm saying that I personally doubt if Eagles were indeed bound by "no intervention" rule just because of their history. > My > response is that if this were so, we'd expect the eagles to have withdrawn > to Valinor. Agreed. Max Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 6 Sep 1999 23:23:01 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7r1icl$9q$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7r0mr0$8dt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37d40b97.302976461@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.upenn.edu!babel.ling.upenn.edu!kurisuto In article <37d40b97.302976461@news.pc-intouch.com>, Mark Wells wrote: >The Eagles are actually under a much tougher set of rules. They're >not supposed to intervene *at all*. As Gwaihir said, "I was sent to >bear tidings, not burdens." (Hmm. You think the Ring counts as a >'burden'?) I take this merely as a statement about Gwaihir's reason for having come. I think it's quite stretch to interpret this statement as a prohibition by the Valar on the eagles doing too much in the fight against Sauron. \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu) --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ _| ,| ,| ----- _| ,| ,| [_] | | | [_] ###### From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 7 Sep 1999 00:00:55 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 48 Message-ID: <7r1kjn$8lj$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7quo6v$gi4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7r158d$8f9$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7r1bb4$8kd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.upenn.edu!babel.ling.upenn.edu!kurisuto In article <7r1bb4$8kd$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Max Moroz wrote: >I do think Saruman used the full range of his powers, against the moral >rules. And yes, those powers diminished due to his corruption. [Interesting mathematical notations deleted] You may well be right on this point; I don't want to belabor the point, because there's no indication in the text that the eagles are under the sort of limitation which was placed on the Istari. Even if you are 100% right about Saruman, I don't think it gets us any closer to establishing that there is some ban by the Valar which which prevent an eagle from flying Frodo to Mt. Doom. >Oh, but I mean "intervention from Valar". If Eagles are viewed as >representatives of Valar by virtue of their descent, then their actions >are interventions. And this sort of intervention far exceeds anything >else imaginable. If Hobbits were dec So let's outline what this means. You're saying that the Valar considered it to be acceptable intervention when the eagles: -rescued Bilbo, Thorin, Gandalf, etc. -participated in the Battle of Five Armies against the orcs -carried messages for Radagast -rescued Gandalf from Orthanc -rescued Gandalf from Zirak-Zigil -participated in the last battle at the gates of Mordor and attacked the nine flying Ringwraiths -flew into Mordor and rescued Frodo and Sam from the eruption of Mt. Doom However, you're saying, it would just be too much intervention if the eagles flew Frodo _into_ Mordor, despite the critical assistance they gave on so many other occasions. My response is this: show me in the text what your evidence is for such a finely detailed set of restrictions on the eagles by the Valar. That I know of, there is no indication in the text at all that the Valar have constrained the eagles in any way; and there's an impressive list of places where the eagles do in fact intervene. As far as I can see, it is pure fan fiction to say that there is such a restriction. \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu) --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ _| ,| ,| ----- _| ,| ,| [_] | | | [_] ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 01:39:09 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Sep 6 18:45:10 1999 References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7r0mr0$8dt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7r19lt$e0k$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7r1lqt$j9l$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-005mnminnp066.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 7 Sep 1999 01:43:37 GMT Message-ID: <37d46b76.11546955@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 20:13:27 -0400, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > Eru COULD have >taken care of the whole thing without half trying... but he >didn't. He lent just so much aid as was needed and no >more. Hmmm...I'm pretty sure this point has been brought up before, but doesn't that make Eru culpable for unnecessarily inflicting harm upon an innocent person (Frodo) -- or make that persons, when you consider the whole toll of the War of the Ring -- if it were possible for him to dispose of the Ring in a way that would have spared Frodo, et al? I guess that gets back to the old "problem of evil with an ominipotent, omnibenevolent god," which is not something we're likely to resolve in this thread or on this group, but I thought I'd throw that point into the pot. I've always found it disturbing that deities and demigods were always so willing to throw mortals into horrible situations to do their dirty work. "Levon wears his war wound like a crown..." -- Taupin The Elton John Worship Page - NEW URL http://eltonworship.virtualave.net ###### From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 7 Sep 1999 04:24:08 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 223 Message-ID: <7r2418$7uu$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7r0mr0$8dt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7r19lt$e0k$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7r1lqt$j9l$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.upenn.edu!babel.ling.upenn.edu!kurisuto In article <7r1lqt$j9l$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > >Well, tell me this; If you think the logical way to do it >would be this far into the future... > >How do you know that isn't precisely what Gandalf had >planned to do? It could have been, but there's nothing in the story to motivate the idea that Gandalf was planning such a thing. >I've answered this before. Those other circumstances were >emergencies where they merely helped out briefly... >rescuing the characters from a hopeless situation. To take >the Ring to Mount Doom themselves would be a very different >thing... they'd be taking on the task of defeating Sauron >themselves rather than just lending a helping wing to keep >the quest from certain failure. Okay, so tell me in the text where it says that the eagles are allowed to help out in emergencies but aren't allowed to help destroy the Ring. >Heh, well given that Barad-dur is closer to Orodruin than >that it doesn't seem much like a best case. :) Looking at the map here, it looks like the flight I've plotted would be around 75 miles, while the flight from Barad-dur would be around 50. Granted, the flight from Barad-dur is a little bit shorter. But even if Sauron does notice the eagles, it's doubtful that he'd notice them from the outset of the flight. That's assuming, of course, that the Nazgul are at Barad-dur and not somewhere else, that they're already in the air, that they react immediately, etc. >Tell me this... what was the danger on the Hill of Seeing? >Sauron could feel the Ring and almost found where it was. >Do you believe he would have been able to DO something if >he had spotted Frodo? I >do<. Tolkien doesn't say exactly what the danger is. I had always vaguely assumed that if he saw that the one gazing at Barad-dur was the Ringbearer, that he'd send the flying Nazgul-- and this time, Frodo is on foot with no eagle to help him escape. >If you assume that the >danger was only of Sauron knowing where the Ring was then >this is not a concern... but I believe it is implied he >could have influenced Frodo's will if he had found him. Possible, but I don't think the text gives any positive evidence for this. >I >think he could have done the same had he seen this Ring >bearing Eagle flying into his domain. Well, I grant that if he spots the eagle, and on the even unlikelier chance that he figures out the nature of the threat in time, then he would probably attempt such a thing. How resistant an eagle would be to such an attack on its will, I don't know; but eagles are said to be pretty sternly made creatures. >> Mt. Doom was engulfed in an extraordinarily strong >> eruption when the eagles flew in to rescue Frodo and >> Sam. It's explicitly stated that there were fumes in the >> air. > >Yes, and that it was dangerous to the Eagles. But they made it. So it's reasonable to guess that they could have made it even if Sauron was causing Mt. Doom to erupt as a way of trying to foil the flight. >> Even if Sauron can order Mt. Doom to erupt at a drop of a >> hat without having to first build up pressure, etc., > >As noted before... he presumably HAD been preparing it for >the vast cloud of darkness that it let out. So you're agreeing that he probably would have needed some preparation time to get the volcano to erupt? This would support my view, since it would mean that he _couldn't_ get it to erupt soon enough to make a difference. >> can he make it erupt any worse than it did when the Ring >> was destroyed? > >He covered the land for miles around beneath a blanket of >darkness. I think the first fury of unleashing that effect >would be considerably worse from the Eagle's perspective >than a relatively 'normal' volcanic eruption... which did >not put out anywhere near that quantity of ash and cloud. There is a description of the outgassing from Mt. Doom; there was a single column of smoke and ash rising far up into the atmosphere, until the high air currents caused it to drift into a covering ceiling. If this were going on when the eagles flew in, it looks to me like all they'd have to do would be avoid that column of smoke and ash; other than the dimness, the rest of the air was clear. >How could Gandalf have known that Gollum would have a part >to play yet? How did Halbarad know his death waited beyond >the Paths of the Dead? > >They just KNEW. I agree that it would be consistent with Tolkien's style for Gandalf to have a strong hunch that the "eagles" plan would fail. I agree that putting this hunch into the story would at least partially close the hole in the plot. However, my point is that Tolkien _didn't_ put such a hunch into the story. >> We know that Saruman coveted rings of power, and that he >> specifically coveted the one that Gandalf had. Saruman >> knew where Cirdan had bestowed his ring, and begrudged >> it. Saruman was willing to go to considerable lengths to >> acquire rings of power. > >Sure. However, direct combat with another Istar was >presumably beyond those lengths. Either that, or there's just another hole in the plot here. Tolkien admits that the story is not perfect. >Did Frodo and Sam walk all the way around Mount Doom? No. >Ergo, there could have been water on some part of the >mountain they never saw - even leaving aside that water >could be carried in to supply a small garrison. What I've been arguing is that there is no evidence that there was a standing garrison of orcs near Mt. Doom. True, such evidence could be added to the story. But the point is, Tolkien didn't add it. >> They could have, but there's no indication that any >> squads of Orcs were stationed there. > >And no indication that there weren't. :) You're arguing from an absence of evidence. >I don't think so. I believe Gandalf had a clear indication >that this was the 'proper path'... as with the earlier >quest; [...] >Put simply; Gandalf knew that not sending Bilbo would be a >disaster - and just as simply he could have known that >using the Eagles would have ended in failure. Okay, but Tolkien never tells us that Gandalf thinks so. There is no indication that Gandalf had a bad hunch about flying into Mordor with the eagles. There is simply a silence on the subject. > >Of the view that it might be harder for Frodo to resist >the Ring if rushed into Mordor; >> Possible. However, I don't think that there's anything >> specific in the text to support this view. > >Nor of the view you put forward of it being easier. That >is my POINT. We do not know. To the contrary, I think there are several indications in the text that the negative effects of the Ring are cumulative over time. Cf. the discussions about how the Ring grew over time on Gollum and then on Bilbo, etc. The Ring slowly eats away at your mind. >See above. Gandalf need not know >why< the Eagle plan >would not work... he could simply have known. This might >well be because Gollum would not be present, but Gandalf >need not have known that to speak against the Eagle plan. > >"'Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield!' I said. 'If this >hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will >fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you.'" > >Gandalf didn't know WHY it would succeed with Bilbo and >fail without him... but he knew that to be the case. Once again, I agree that Tolkien could have used Gandalf's hunches as a way of explaining why the Company did not try the "eagles" plan. But the fact is that Tolkien did not do so. >That nobody came up with the idea does not make it a hole >in the plot. Nobody suggested just asking Tom Bombadil to >walk over and toss the Ring into Mount Doom either... and >in one of his notes JRRT says that Tom COULD HAVE if he had >only been asked. It is (if anything) an oversight. To the contrary, Tolkien explicitly states that Tom Bombadil refuses to cross the borders of his land. At the Council of Elrond, it is explicitly stated that Tom Bombadil would be a very bad choice as a guardian for the Ring, since it would have no hold on his mind and would not interest him. If there is a note from Tolkien stating otherwise, it flatly contradicts things that he says in LotR. I don't recall such a note; could you quote it here? >There is nothing in the text to explain how Shadowfax got >back to Rohan when Gandalf parted with him... is this a >plot hole or can we make the reasonable assumption that he >ran back home? That something is not in the text does not >a plot hole make in my view... it has to be something which >is not in the text and has no reasonable explanation. I have no problem assuming that Shadowfax got back home on his own. Gandalf says that he parted with Shadowfax and "sent him back to his master." We know that Bill made it back to Bree from the west gate of Moria; apparently, horses in Middle-Earth can sometimes find their way home from quite some distance away. \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu) --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ _| ,| ,| ----- _| ,| ,| [_] | | | [_] ###### From: Max Moroz Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 07:05:31 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 65 Message-ID: <7r2dfn$ve6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7quo6v$gi4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7r158d$8f9$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7r1bb4$8kd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7r1kjn$8lj$1@netnews.upenn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.185.42.14 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Sep 07 07:05:31 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x41.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 38.185.42.14 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmmoroz Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Sean Crist wrote in message news:7r1kjn$8lj$1@netnews.upenn.edu... > In article <7r1bb4$8kd$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Max Moroz wrote: > > So let's outline what this means. You're saying that the Valar considered > it to be acceptable intervention when the eagles: > > -rescued Bilbo, Thorin, Gandalf, etc. > -participated in the Battle of Five Armies against the orcs > -carried messages for Radagast > -rescued Gandalf from Orthanc > -rescued Gandalf from Zirak-Zigil > -participated in the last battle at the gates of Mordor and attacked the > nine flying Ringwraiths > -flew into Mordor and rescued Frodo and Sam from the eruption of Mt. Doom > > However, you're saying, it would just be too much intervention if the > eagles flew Frodo _into_ Mordor, despite the critical assistance they gave > on so many other occasions. Well, clearly a flight to Orodruin with the ring in the beak (or ringbearing Frodo in the be... oops, talons :-) is essentially equivalent to destroying Sauron. That is, if Operation Mordor Storm succeeds, there won't be a single person to share the credit with the Eagles. They essentially would have done this themselves. And destroying Sauron is a rather major adjustment to the life in ME. In all other cases, two things were different. First, at no point was the existence of Sauron (or anything similarly important) directly affected by the Eagles. Second, no enemy was destroyed completely by the Eagles. In most cases, they only did search & rescue operations which was in a sense a passive involvement. When they did participate in the active attacks, they only _helped_ the outcome, and did not single-handedly achieve it. > My response is this: show me in the text what your evidence is for such a > finely detailed set of restrictions on the eagles by the Valar. That I > know of, there is no indication in the text at all that the Valar have > constrained the eagles in any way; and there's an impressive list of place s > where the eagles do in fact intervene. As far as I can see, it is pure fan > fiction to say that there is such a restriction. Unfortunately, the stupid hobbits did not think of explaining this fine point. And the Translator, probably, decided not to add his own opinions, but rather stick to the original . But I agree, the Books do not support my explanation, merely _allow_ it. Max Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: Kristian Damm Jensen Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 11:38:42 +0200 Organization: CAP Gemini Danmark A/S Lines: 39 Message-ID: <37D4DD21.C16A76A4@REMOVEcapgemini.dk> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qmq84$297$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7r0mr0$8dt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7r19lt$e0k$1@netnews.upenn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.247.190.237 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!news.capgemini.se!not-for-mail Sean Crist wrote: > In article <7r0mr0$8dt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > >Provided an Eagle could be obtained I grant you it is quite > >possible they could be asked to perform some favor... > >though I still find 'please go destroy the Dark Lord for > >us' a rather extreme / unlikely 'favor'. > > The eagles and involved several times that we know of in the struggle > against evil. They rescue Thorin & Co.; they rescue Gandalf from Orthanc > and again from Zirak-Zigil; they attack the Nazgul in the last battle; they > rescue Frodo and Sam from the eruption of Mt. Doom, etc. Why would they > refuse to help on this particular occasion? If you read the passage wheer gandalf is rescued from Ortanc, you will see that Gwihir wasn't very keen on the job: "I was sent to carry messages, not burdens." Only later in the book does the intimate friendship between Gandalf and Gwaihir evolve. So at the point where the strategy for delivering the ring is to be decided, it does not seem likely, that the eagles would help. -- Kristian Damm Jensen kristian-damm.jensen@capgemini.dk ###### From: Kristian Damm Jensen Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 12:24:44 +0200 Organization: CAP Gemini Danmark A/S Lines: 27 Message-ID: <37D4E7EC.B97A31AD@REMOVEcapgemini.dk> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7quhu6$6lr$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7r0mr0$8dt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37d40b97.302976461@news.pc-intouch.com> <7r1icl$9q$1@netnews.upenn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.247.190.237 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!news.capgemini.se!not-for-mail Sean Crist wrote: > In article <37d40b97.302976461@news.pc-intouch.com>, > Mark Wells wrote: > > >The Eagles are actually under a much tougher set of rules. They're > >not supposed to intervene *at all*. As Gwaihir said, "I was sent to > >bear tidings, not burdens." (Hmm. You think the Ring counts as a > >'burden'?) > > I take this merely as a statement about Gwaihir's reason for having come. > I think it's quite stretch to interpret this statement as a prohibition by > the Valar on the eagles doing too much in the fight against Sauron. Agreed. That, and a sign of his willingness to undertake the new task presented him by Gandalf, namely to carry Gandalf away from Orthanc. He does so, but grudgingly. -- Kristian Damm Jensen kristian-damm.jensen@capgemini.dk ###### From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 7 Sep 1999 22:53:11 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 39 Message-ID: <7r450n$9dv$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7r1bb4$8kd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7r1kjn$8lj$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7r2dfn$ve6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.upenn.edu!babel.ling.upenn.edu!kurisuto In article <7r2dfn$ve6$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Max Moroz wrote: >Well, clearly a flight to Orodruin with the ring in the beak (or >ringbearing Frodo in the be... oops, talons :-) is essentially >equivalent to destroying Sauron. That is, if Operation Mordor Storm >succeeds, there won't be a single person to share the credit with the >Eagles. They essentially would have done this themselves. And >destroying Sauron is a rather major adjustment to the life in ME. I don't agree; credit also would go to Frodo, who actually bore the Ring; to Gandalf, for organizing the whole campaign; to the others in the Company who went by foot and boat with Frodo before the eagles met them at the prearranged time and place, etc. Even if credit did go solely to the eagles, however, what would be wrong with that? Where does Tolkien say that the eagles aren't allowed to get full credit for destroying Sauron? >In all other cases, two things were different. First, at no point was >the existence of Sauron (or anything similarly important) directly >affected by the Eagles. Second, no enemy was destroyed completely by >the Eagles. In most cases, they only did search & rescue operations >which was in a sense a passive involvement. When they did participate >in the active attacks, they only _helped_ the outcome, and did not >single-handedly achieve it. This seems to be saying that the Eagles couldn't do something as important as destroying the Ring because they never did anything else that important. Well, neither did anybody else in the Third Age. That's as true of Frodo as it is for the eagles. \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu) --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ _| ,| ,| ----- _| ,| ,| [_] | | | [_] ###### From: kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: 7 Sep 1999 23:08:02 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 42 Message-ID: <7r45si$l3e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7r0mr0$8dt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7r19lt$e0k$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <37D4DD21.C16A76A4@REMOVEcapgemini.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: babel.ling.upenn.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.upenn.edu!babel.ling.upenn.edu!kurisuto In article <37D4DD21.C16A76A4@REMOVEcapgemini.dk>, Kristian Damm Jensen wrote: >If you read the passage wheer gandalf is rescued from Ortanc, you will see >that Gwihir wasn't very keen on the job: "I was sent to carry messages, >not burdens." The quote is as follows: So it was that when summer waned, there was a night of moon, and Gawihir the Windlord, swiftest of the Great Eagles, came unlooked-for to Orthanc: and he found me standing on the pinnacle. Then I spoke to him and he bore me away, before Saruman was aware. [...] "How far can you bear me?" I said to Gwaihir. "Many leagues," said he, "but not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings not burderns." I take this to mean that Gwaihir is quite willing to help, but he simply does not have the strength and endurance to carry Gandalf hundreds and hundreds of miles (e.g., to the Shire, or to Rivendell). I don't sense any grudging in these sentences or in the following paragraphs where the two discuss Rohan. >Only later in the book does the intimate friendship between Gandalf and >Gwaihir evolve. > >So at the point where the strategy for delivering the ring is to be >decided, it does not seem likely, that the eagles would help. At this point, they've already rescued Bilbo and crew; they've fought against the orcs in the Battle of Five Armies; and they've rescued Gandalf. It seems that they are willing to help in general. They migh say no, but it would be worth it to at least ask. \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@unagi.cis.upenn.edu) --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/ _| ,| ,| ----- _| ,| ,| [_] | | | [_] ###### From: Kristian Damm Jensen Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 13:07:59 +0200 Organization: CAP Gemini Danmark A/S Lines: 68 Message-ID: <37D6438F.34ED602@REMOVEcapgemini.dk> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7r0mr0$8dt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7r19lt$e0k$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <37D4DD21.C16A76A4@REMOVEcapgemini.dk> <7r45si$l3e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.247.190.222 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!news.capgemini.se!not-for-mail Sean Crist wrote: > In article <37D4DD21.C16A76A4@REMOVEcapgemini.dk>, > Kristian Damm Jensen wrote: > > >If you read the passage wheer gandalf is rescued from Ortanc, you will see > >that Gwihir wasn't very keen on the job: "I was sent to carry messages, > >not burdens." > > The quote is as follows: > > So it was that when summer waned, there was a night of moon, and > Gawihir the Windlord, swiftest of the Great Eagles, came unlooked-for > to Orthanc: and he found me standing on the pinnacle. Then I spoke to > him and he bore me away, before Saruman was aware. [...] > > "How far can you bear me?" I said to Gwaihir. > > "Many leagues," said he, "but not to the ends of the earth. I was sent > to bear tidings not burderns." > > I take this to mean that Gwaihir is quite willing to help, but he simply > does not have the strength and endurance to carry Gandalf hundreds and > hundreds of miles (e.g., to the Shire, or to Rivendell). I don't sense any > grudging in these sentences or in the following paragraphs where the two > discuss Rohan. First of all I want to apologize for quotingg from memory and not making that clear. Secondly I want you to compare the above quote with the exchange between Gwaihir and Gandalf in the chapter Mount Doom. If memory serves me (I still do not have my books with me) Gwaihir says: "I will bear you wither you will, even were you made of stone." So unless this is mere boasting Gwaihir does have the strength. Comparing the three encounters between Gwaihir and Gandalf (from Orthanc to Rohan, from Celebdil to Lorien and from the Black Gate to Mount Doom) is quite instructive. Since I haven't got my books I will not quote at length, but suffice it to say that we see a very markedly development in their relationship. From help handed out grudgingly, via comradeship to close friendship. Note that Gandalf does not use the word friend until the latest of the three encounters. > >Only later in the book does the intimate friendship between Gandalf and > >Gwaihir evolve. > > > >So at the point where the strategy for delivering the ring is to be > >decided, it does not seem likely, that the eagles would help. > > At this point, they've already rescued Bilbo and crew; they've fought > against the orcs in the Battle of Five Armies; and they've rescued > Gandalf. It seems that they are willing to help in general. They migh say > no, but it would be worth it to at least ask. I find it hard to argue about events in LOTR based on knowledge that can only be gained from the Hobbit. Readers of LOTR has not always read the Hobbit. That is why I left out that part of your argument. -- Kristian Damm Jensen kristian-damm.jensen@capgemini.dk ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7r1bb4$8kd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7r1kjn$8lj$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7r2dfn$ve6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7r450n$9dv$1@netnews.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Lines: 25 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <6jCB3.1491$Gh6.2615@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.41.59 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 936833346 212.151.41.59 (Thu, 09 Sep 1999 01:29:06 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 01:29:06 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-41-59.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:24:34 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Sean Crist hath written: > >Even if credit did go solely to the eagles, however, what would be wrong >with that? Where does Tolkien say that the eagles aren't allowed to get >full credit for destroying Sauron? You mean they haven't told you? Tolkien hated eagles. He always had, ever since he was kidnapped by one as a child and was saved from becoming an eagle's breakfast at the very last moment. If you dedicate all the energy you have shown here to a new project, you will find ample evidence of Tolkien's anti-Eagle prejudice everywhere in his books. He pretends to praise the Eagles, sure, but in truth he never does them justice. Who fought with the Balrog on top of Zirak-zigil? Gwaihir, while Gandalf was hiding. Who saved the Hobbits from the Barrow-wight? Gwaihir and Landroval - not that hippie Tom Bombadil. Who dressed up as Shelob in order to confuse the Orcs? Gwaihir again. Go for it! Öjevind ###### From: james_pauwels@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:55:47 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <7rm5nd$v32$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7rjqh6$9rv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rk02e$hht$1@netnews.upenn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.124.150.253 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Sep 14 18:55:47 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x33.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.124.150.253 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjames_pauwels Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <7rk02e$hht$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) wrote: > In article <7rjqh6$9rv$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, wrote: > > >Perhaps he didn't have the Eagles do it because, if they did, then > >Merry, Pippin, Frodo and Sam would become chamber-maids for Sharkey. > > I assume this is a joke. Naturally, when the Council of Elrond is trying > to decide on a course of action, they wouldn't know that Saruman would > later go to the Shire to make trouble. Perhaps not. Still, why do the dopiest thing imaginable - give the Ring to the half-pints to carry to Mount Doom? With all those perfectly good Eagles roosting about, not to mention fully functional Elf-lords and wizards wasting away the afternoons in the Gondolin Bar at Club Imladris? Insane! Inexplicable! So, maybe the hobbits needed the quest more than Manwe's familiars did. That's all I'm saying. Jim Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 14 Sep 1999 19:35:27 GMT References: <7rm5nd$v32$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990914153527.01097.00000106@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!blanket.mitre.org!philabs!newsjunkie.ans.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7rm5nd$v32$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, james_pauwels@my-deja.com writes: >Perhaps not. Still, why do the dopiest thing imaginable - give the >Ring to the half-pints to carry to Mount Doom? With all those >perfectly good Eagles roosting about, not to mention fully functional >Elf-lords and wizards wasting away the afternoons in the Gondolin Bar >at Club Imladris? Insane! Inexplicable! > >So, maybe the hobbits needed the quest more than Manwe's familiars >did. That's all I'm saying. > The serious answer is that the Elves (and the Wise in general) believe things happen for a reason. They believe in fate. They believed that Bilbo found the Ring for a reason and that it therefore passed to Frodo for a reason. And they decided to respect what ever force was creating that fate. Also, as pointed out several times, giving the Ring to a powerful elf lord would prove too big a temptation. It wouldn't be long before Elrond, Glorfindel, or another of the Elven wise or other person of power would have been tempted to put on the Ring and try to use it. If you noticed, no one wanted to touch the Ring with a 10-foot pole: not Aragorn, not Gandalf, not Elrond and not Galadriel. Had any taken the Ring and being temped tried to use it, his journey to the dark side would be complete...oops, sorry mixing up my trilogies here . Anyway, those are the two reasons I know of that an Elven lord didn't try to take the ring to Mordor instead of Frodo. Russ ###### From: spamblock@see.sig (Mark Myers) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:53:29 +0100 Organization: INSnet Customer Posting Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7rjqh6$9rv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rk02e$hht$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7rm5nd$v32$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: e0.gateway-1.route.netforce.net X-Trace: starburst.uk.insnet.net 937396411 1290 195.58.64.67 (15 Sep 1999 11:53:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@starburst.uk.insnet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 1999 11:53:31 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!insnet.net!not-for-mail james_pauwels@my-deja.com wrote ... > In article <7rk02e$hht$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, > kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) wrote: > > In article <7rjqh6$9rv$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, deja.com> wrote: > > > > >Perhaps he didn't have the Eagles do it because, if they did, then > > >Merry, Pippin, Frodo and Sam would become chamber-maids for Sharkey. > > > > I assume this is a joke. Naturally, when the Council of Elrond is > trying > > to decide on a course of action, they wouldn't know that Saruman would > > later go to the Shire to make trouble. > > Perhaps not. Still, why do the dopiest thing imaginable - give the > Ring to the half-pints to carry to Mount Doom? With all those > perfectly good Eagles roosting about, not to mention fully functional The Eagles are being dealt with very well in another thread ... > Elf-lords and wizards wasting away the afternoons in the Gondolin Bar > at Club Imladris? Insane! Inexplicable! Hardly. ISTR, from the Council of Elrond, Gandalf pointing out that on the Quest even Glorfindel couldn't withstand the Nine, and that none of the Wise felt able to even touch the Ring, let alone bear it to Mount Doom, such was their fear of being perverted to evil. > > So, maybe the hobbits needed the quest more than Manwe's familiars > did. That's all I'm saying. > Doesn't seem to fit the text though. -- Regards Mark Myers jahdzia at iname dot com ###### From: james_pauwels@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:37:20 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 60 Message-ID: <7roauu$frj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7rm5nd$v32$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19990914153527.01097.00000106@ngol03.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.124.150.253 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Sep 15 14:37:20 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x42.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.124.150.253 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjames_pauwels Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <19990914153527.01097.00000106@ngol03.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: > In article <7rm5nd$v32$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, james_pauwels@my-deja.com writes: > > >Perhaps not. Still, why do the dopiest thing imaginable - give the > >Ring to the half-pints to carry to Mount Doom? With all those > >perfectly good Eagles roosting about, not to mention fully functional > >Elf-lords and wizards wasting away the afternoons in the Gondolin Bar > >at Club Imladris? Insane! Inexplicable! > > > >So, maybe the hobbits needed the quest more than Manwe's familiars > >did. That's all I'm saying. > > > > The serious answer is that the Elves (and the Wise in general) believe things > happen for a reason. They believe in fate. They believed that Bilbo found the > Ring for a reason and that it therefore passed to Frodo for a reason. And they > decided to respect what ever force was creating that fate. I more or less agree with this line of thought (I might quibble with the notion of "fate" - Frodo chose the quest of his free will - but that's another discussion). And I think this explanation sufficiently answers the question, "Why not have the Eagle carry the ring or the Ring-bearer to Mount Doom?". It's why I don't view the alleged Eagle solution as a "hole in the plot". Foresight not being unknown in Middle-Earth, it does seem that Gandalf had some pretty specific notions of why the Hobbits should be part of the company setting out on the quest. Istm that failing to groom leaders for the Shire would have been a more egregious "hole in the plot". > Also, as pointed out several times, giving the Ring to a powerful elf lord > would prove too big a temptation. It wouldn't be long before Elrond, > Glorfindel, or another of the Elven wise or other person of power would have > been tempted to put on the Ring and try to use it. If you noticed, no one > wanted to touch the Ring with a 10-foot pole: not Aragorn, not Gandalf, not > Elrond and not Galadriel. Had any taken the Ring and being temped tried to use > it, his journey to the dark side would be complete...oops, sorry mixing up my > trilogies here . What's good for the Elf-lord is good for the Eagle. No reason to think that Gwaihir or his brother what's-his-name wouldn't have been similarly tempted. Jim Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: james_pauwels@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:22:01 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 80 Message-ID: <7rr1ua$fcp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7rjqh6$9rv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rk02e$hht$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7rm5nd$v32$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.124.150.253 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Sep 16 15:22:01 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x29.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.124.150.253 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjames_pauwels Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article , spamblock@see.sig (Mark Myers) wrote: > james_pauwels@my-deja.com wrote ... > > In article <7rk02e$hht$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, > > kurisuto@babel.ling.upenn.edu (Sean Crist) wrote: > > > In article <7rjqh6$9rv$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > deja.com> wrote: > > > > > > >Perhaps he didn't have the Eagles do it because, if they did, then > > > >Merry, Pippin, Frodo and Sam would become chamber-maids for Sharkey. > > > > > > I assume this is a joke. Naturally, when the Council of Elrond is > > trying > > > to decide on a course of action, they wouldn't know that Saruman would > > > later go to the Shire to make trouble. > > > > Perhaps not. Still, why do the dopiest thing imaginable - give the > > Ring to the half-pints to carry to Mount Doom? With all those > > perfectly good Eagles roosting about, not to mention fully functional > > The Eagles are being dealt with very well in another thread ... I think so, and you think so, but it doesn't seem to be unanimous yet :- ). I'm contributing my twopence to the notion of "just give it to the Eagles, they'll take care of it." > > > Elf-lords and wizards wasting away the afternoons in the Gondolin Bar > > at Club Imladris? Insane! Inexplicable! > > Hardly. ISTR, from the Council of Elrond, Gandalf pointing out that on > the Quest even Glorfindel couldn't withstand the Nine, and that none of > the Wise felt able to even touch the Ring, let alone bear it to Mount > Doom, such was their fear of being perverted to evil. I somewhat agree. I was being sarcastic above. At the risk of stating the obvious, the decision to send Frodo to destroy the Ring is doubly foolish: (1) it is foolish to try to send the Ring into the heart of Sauron's realm; and (2) it is foolish to appoint a Hobbit as Ringbearer. Once the first course of folly was decided upon, it was by no means inevitable that Frodo would be appointed. Elrond, Gandalf or Aragorn and eight friends would be wiser (according to conventional wisdom). I suppose that the Council of Elrond accepted Frodo's offer by dint of Mithrandir's and Elrond's reputation for wisdom, rather than because all in attendance were persuaded on its own merits that the chosen course of action was the best shot for success. (I don't discount your point about the risk to the Wise of saddling one of them with the burden of the Ring. It's an interesting exercise in risk management: on the one hand, the Ring would be sorely tempting, indeed Gandalf and Elrond seemed to think it more likely than not that a powerful person would capitulate to its lure; on the other hand, the Hobbits were such naifs that the possibility of eluding Sauron's snares must have seemed almost nil. To my mind, the decision to choose the Hobbits was not the obvious choice). > > > > So, maybe the hobbits needed the quest more than Manwe's familiars > > did. That's all I'm saying. > > > > Doesn't seem to fit the text though. What does not fit the text? That Gandalf wished to develop some halfling leadership? Jim Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:28:57 -0400 Lines: 41 Message-ID: <37E3A1A3.1E1FDA2E@erols.com> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qjahb$v2e$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7qk75i$nh8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7rjqh6$9rv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rk02e$hht$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <7rm5nd$v32$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rr1ua$fcp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: lTtA1lUhZzpOgGOi1RKR6++vyY5QoWvJA21O7Ygx4Po= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1999 15:33:15 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!feeder.qis.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail james_pauwels@my-deja.com wrote: > At the risk of stating the obvious, the decision to send Frodo to > destroy the Ring is doubly foolish: (1) it is foolish to try to send > the Ring into the heart of Sauron's realm; It is also the only way to rid ME of the ring forever. Read Council of Elrond. > and (2) it is foolish to > appoint a Hobbit as Ringbearer. Because it's harder to turn Hobbits to the Dark Side! "Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life." Galadriel's Mirror, FotR > Once the first course of folly was > decided upon, it was by no means inevitable that Frodo would be > appointed. Elrond, Gandalf or Aragorn and eight friends would be wiser > (according to conventional wisdom). If Gandalf says the Hobbits are the best for the job, they are. > I suppose that the Council of > Elrond accepted Frodo's offer by dint of Mithrandir's and Elrond's > reputation for wisdom, rather than because all in attendance were > persuaded on its own merits that the chosen course of action was the > best shot for success. See above. Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna the Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way! ###### From: Mainecoon Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Poster Profiles Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 15:50:52 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7s0cco$6ii$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 152.163.206.214 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Sep 18 15:50:52 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; MSN 2.5; AOL 4.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x22.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 152.163.206.214 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsam_gamgee Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu>, Larry Richards speaketh: > A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, > partisan! > > LOL! Mainecoon Winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Merry killing, pointy ears, and Sam is the hero!! -- "Often the unbidden guest proves the best company." Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.