From: Larry Richards Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Bearded Elves (Was Re: Poster Profiles) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:45:45 -0400 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 14 Message-ID: <37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfpgk$1rs_032@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-32-35.itc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!arclight.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > 5) Pro-bearded Elves > Bearded Elves?!!! WOW! I haven't seen that one before. Maybe we should start a debate going about that one. It would give us one more topic to talk about besides BWs, Elvish Birth Control and WoF. -- LGR A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, partisan! ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Bearded Elves (Was Re: Poster Profiles) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:01:34 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7qhga7$58g$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfpgk$1rs_032@Org.xenite.org> <37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.205 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 936133767 5392 12.79.28.205 (31 Aug 1999 21:09:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 1999 21:09:27 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Larry Richards wrote in message news:37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu... > Bearded Elves?!!! WOW! I haven't seen that one before. Cirdan in RotK is said to have a beard. Beleg in one of JRRT's paintings appears to have a beard. However, elsewhere (The Hobbit for instance) JRRT states that Elves do not grow beards. Thus we have contradictory 'largely canonical' information. Largely canonical in that many people accept these sources as canonical (but not all do). I personally also come down on the side of bearded dwarves, but only in extreme circumstances... I think they can age too (there are two examples of elderly elves). Basically my view is that it takes a long time spent in Middle Earth (id est, they don't age as much / at all in Aman). ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Bearded Elves (Was Re: Poster Profiles) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:37:47 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 12 Message-ID: <7qhie4$csp$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfpgk$1rs_032@Org.xenite.org> <37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu> <7qhga7$58g$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37CC4AA9.50418AE1@mediaone.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.205 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 936135940 13209 12.79.28.205 (31 Aug 1999 21:45:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 1999 21:45:40 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Cian wrote in message news:37CC4AA9.50418AE1@mediaone.net... > Cirdan, and the ancient doorward of Mar Vanwa Tyaliéva I > presume -- he that Eriol spied coming along a lane of > hazel-bushes, Rúmil the sage. > Cian [getting into BOLT again; couldja tell? :)] Heh, yep that'd be the other one. :) ###### From: Larry Richards Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Bearded Elves (Was Re: Poster Profiles) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:43:39 -0400 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 24 Message-ID: <37CC4C8B.D3B0D470@virginia.edu> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfpgk$1rs_032@Org.xenite.org> <37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu> <7qhga7$58g$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-31-5.itc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > Larry Richards wrote in message > news:37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu... > > > Bearded Elves?!!! WOW! I haven't seen that one before. > > Cirdan in RotK is said to have a beard. > Beleg in one of JRRT's paintings appears to have a beard. > > However, elsewhere (The Hobbit for instance) JRRT states > that Elves do not grow beards. > Oh. I forgot Cirdan. I had always thought him to be an anomalous figure (that is after reading Silm) because of his age and beard. (When I read LotR for the first time, it was not clear to me that he was an elf, and so his age and beard went passed by unnoticed.) -- LGR A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, partisan! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Bearded Elves (Was Re: Poster Profiles) Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qi964$23s_018@Org.xenite.org> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfpgk$1rs_032@Org.xenite.org> <37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu> <7qhga7$58g$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37CC4C8B.D3B0D470@virginia.edu> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 26 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 04:13:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.126 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 936159298 207.224.147.126 (Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:14:58 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:14:58 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37CC4C8B.D3B0D470@virginia.edu>, Larry Richards wrote: >> >> However, elsewhere (The Hobbit for instance) JRRT states >> that Elves do not grow beards. Tolkien does NOT state in THE HOBBIT that Elves do not grow beards. > >Oh. I forgot Cirdan. I had always thought him to be an anomalous figure >(that is after reading Silm) because of his age and beard. (When I read >LotR for the first time, it was not clear to me that he was an elf, and >so his age and beard went passed by unnoticed.) Cirdan is a bearded elf. The only piece of paper ever to come to life where Tolkien wrote that Elves don't have beards was a note Tolkien wrote in the last year of his life. It was not a part of any "canonical" source and certainly contradicted the "canon". -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Bearded Elves (Was Re: Poster Profiles) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37ce1e7b.134095833@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfpgk$1rs_032@Org.xenite.org> <37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu> <7qhga7$58g$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37CC4C8B.D3B0D470@virginia.edu> <7qi964$23s_018@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-47.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 06:56:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 936255185 207.212.198.18 (Wed, 01 Sep 1999 23:53:05 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 23:53:05 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Wed, 01 Sep 1999 04:13:56 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >Cirdan is a bearded elf. The only piece of paper ever to come to life >where Tolkien wrote that Elves don't have beards was a note Tolkien wrote >in the last year of his life. It was not a part of any "canonical" source >and certainly contradicted the "canon". It's still Tolkien's opinion, and I'd like to try to reconcile it with his opinion about Círdan's beard. If I say that "President Clinton[0] doesn't have a beard", does that mean that his face simply won't grow hair, or does it mean that he's *accustomed* to not wearing a beard, for cosmetic and hygenic reasons, so he removes it? Similarly, the statement "The Elves don't wear beards" could mean that it's customary for them to shave. (Or, since the Elves have such a high degree of control over their bodies, that they don't grow facial hair unless they want to.) [0] I'm not picking on President Clinton, though I'd like to. He's just the first example that came to mind of a well-known person who doesn't wear a beard. ###### From: "Öjevind Lĺng" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfpgk$1rs_032@Org.xenite.org> <37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu> <7qhga7$58g$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37CC4C8B.D3B0D470@virginia.edu> <7qi964$23s_018@Org.xenite.org> <37ce1e7b.134095833@news.pc-intouch.com> Subject: Re: Bearded Elves (Was Re: Poster Profiles) Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <5Syz3.1385$K33.3503@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.54.213 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 936294913 130.244.54.213 (Thu, 02 Sep 1999 19:55:13 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 19:55:13 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@dialup54-4-21.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:50:51 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newspeer.ebone.net!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Mark Wells hath written: >On Wed, 01 Sep 1999 04:13:56 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>Cirdan is a bearded elf. The only piece of paper ever to come to life >>where Tolkien wrote that Elves don't have beards was a note Tolkien wrote >>in the last year of his life. It was not a part of any "canonical" source >>and certainly contradicted the "canon". > >It's still Tolkien's opinion, and I'd like to try to reconcile it with >his opinion about Círdan's beard. Don't forget that Círdan lived in the Grey Havens and was known as a mariner and shipwright. His maritime position was unique, just like his beard. I think the beard probably was a Newgate fringe of the kind old sailors wear in stories. Öjevind "Chewbacca asked me this morning if he could marry Leia. I said sure, why not? Whitest man I know." (From "The Diary of a Redneck Jedi") ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Bearded Elves (Was Re: Poster Profiles) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 22:03:44 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfpgk$1rs_032@Org.xenite.org> <37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu> <7qhga7$58g$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37CC4C8B.D3B0D470@virginia.edu> <7qi964$23s_018@Org.xenite.org> <37ce1e7b.134095833@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.4f.30 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 3 Sep 1999 02:02:49 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!jblanks mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: > [T]the statement "The Elves don't wear beards" could mean that > it's customary for them to shave. (Or, since the Elves have such a > high degree of control over their bodies, that they don't grow facial > hair unless they want to.) IIRC, the exact wording was: "No Elf ever had a trace of a beard." -- "Americans never solve their problems; they just amiably bid them good-bye." --George Santayana ###### From: s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au (Stephen Souter) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Bearded Elves (Was Re: Poster Profiles) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 04:53:35 +1100 Organization: University of Sydney Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfpgk$1rs_032@Org.xenite.org> <37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu> <7qhga7$58g$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37CC4C8B.D3B0D470@virginia.edu> <7qi964$23s_018@Org.xenite.org> <37ce1e7b.134095833@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: msdos77.edfac.usyd.edu.au X-Trace: metro.ucc.usyd.edu.au 936989617 23576 129.78.104.97 (10 Sep 1999 18:53:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.usyd.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 1999 18:53:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!msdos77.edfac.usyd.edu.au!user In article , jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) wrote: > mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: > > > [T]the statement "The Elves don't wear beards" could mean that > > it's customary for them to shave. (Or, since the Elves have such a > > high degree of control over their bodies, that they don't grow facial > > hair unless they want to.) > > IIRC, the exact wording was: "No Elf ever had a trace of a beard." That reference comes from the Prologue to the LotR (IIRC), where it's Hobbits (Harfoots & Fallohides) which are being referred to, not Elves! (They were being contrasted with the Stoors.) -- Stephen Souter s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au http://www.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/souters/ ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Bearded Elves (Was Re: Poster Profiles) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:58:23 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfpgk$1rs_032@Org.xenite.org> <37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu> <7qhga7$58g$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37CC4C8B.D3B0D470@virginia.edu> <7qi964$23s_018@Org.xenite.org> <37ce1e7b.134095833@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.35.78 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 16 Sep 1999 02:55:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!jblanks s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au (Stephen Souter) wrote: > jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) wrote: > > IIRC, the exact wording was: "No Elf ever had a trace of a beard." > > That reference comes from the Prologue to the LotR (IIRC),.. I'm familiar with that, too. But I'm sure I read this somewhere else, in a reference by CJRT to a letter by JRRT. -- "Americans never solve their problems; they just amiably bid them good-bye." --George Santayana ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Bearded Elves (Was Re: Poster Profiles) Organization: Xneite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rrcvj$1j0_018@Org.xenite.org> References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfpgk$1rs_032@Org.xenite.org> <37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu> <7qhga7$58g$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37CC4C8B.D3B0D470@virginia.edu> <7qi964$23s_018@Org.xenite.org> <37ce1e7b.134095833@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 24 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:30:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.159 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937506723 209.181.118.159 (Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:32:03 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:32:03 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) wrote: >s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au (Stephen Souter) wrote: > >> jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) wrote: > >> > IIRC, the exact wording was: "No Elf ever had a trace of a beard." >> >> That reference comes from the Prologue to the LotR (IIRC),.. > >I'm familiar with that, too. But I'm sure I read this somewhere else, in >a reference by CJRT to a letter by JRRT. There is no such sentence in the Prologue to THE LORD OF THE RINGS. What appears to have been a joke is being taken seriously by people who are obviously not bothering to read the book. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au (Stephen Souter) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Bearded Elves (Was Re: Poster Profiles) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 18:02:44 +1100 Organization: University of Sydney Lines: 40 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <37CA2B24.4F59631D@virginia.edu> <7qfpgk$1rs_032@Org.xenite.org> <37CB41D9.B0E75EC2@virginia.edu> <7qhga7$58g$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37CC4C8B.D3B0D470@virginia.edu> <7qi964$23s_018@Org.xenite.org> <37ce1e7b.134095833@news.pc-intouch.com> <7rrcvj$1j0_018@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: msdos77.edfac.usyd.edu.au X-Trace: metro.ucc.usyd.edu.au 938246565 19151 129.78.104.97 (25 Sep 1999 08:02:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.usyd.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Sep 1999 08:02:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!msdos77.edfac.usyd.edu.au!user In article <7rrcvj$1j0_018@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > In article , jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) wrote: > >s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au (Stephen Souter) wrote: > > > >> jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) wrote: > > > >> > IIRC, the exact wording was: "No Elf ever had a trace of a beard." > >> > >> That reference comes from the Prologue to the LotR (IIRC),.. It would help if people did not truncate posts to make people seem to say things they didn't. > >I'm familiar with that, too. But I'm sure I read this somewhere else, in > >a reference by CJRT to a letter by JRRT. > > There is no such sentence in the Prologue to THE LORD OF THE RINGS. What > appears to have been a joke is being taken seriously by people who are > obviously not bothering to read the book. "No Elf ever had a trace of a beard" does not appear, but those words bear a strong resemblance to ones which do: "No Harfoot or Fallohide had any trace of beard." This occurs in the fourth-last paragraph of section 1 of the Prologue (which begins "The habit of building farm-houses and barns was said to have begun among the inhabitants of the Marish down by the Brandywine."), in the context of a mention of the Marish hobbits' Stoorish-ness: "But they were well known to be Stoors in a large part of their blood as indeed was shown by the down that many grew on their chins." -- Stephen Souter s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au http://www.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/souters/