From: "ilya popov" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: underlying myths Lines: 19 Organization: www.thats-it.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:48:09 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.36.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 935528021 24.128.36.166 (Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:53:41 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:53:41 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail A friend of mine, who happens to be an enormous tolkien nut (the silmarillion happens to be his favorite book) was sharing with me that he had spent some time examining the core of tolkien's world, and that it's all based on anglo saxon myths, which i believe are inherently germanic in origin? Since i've only just recently begun studying norse mythology again ( a love of mine ) the only clue i had was the mention of a Frea near the end of return of the king, and freya, being a norse goddess of fertility and love, this struck me as being the only real noticable tie to anglo saxon mythology. Is there any other indepth information/ideas/theories/etc that people could share? Since i intend to study mythology in college, tolkien has captivated me unlike any other.. - ilya popov ###### From: Chris Csernica Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: underlying myths Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:31:08 -0700 Organization: none Lines: 44 Message-ID: <37C3394C.2E84887C@ihwy.com> References: Reply-To: csernica@ihwy.com NNTP-Posting-Host: SVL78ZT836.lmms.lmco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.direct.ca!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!denver-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!coop.net!newsfeed1.global.lmco.com!svlss.lmms.lmco.com!news ilya popov wrote: > Since i've only just recently begun studying norse mythology again ( a love > of mine ) the only clue i had was the mention of a Frea near the end of > return of the king, and freya, being a norse goddess of fertility and love, > this struck me as being the only real noticable tie to anglo saxon > mythology. IIRC, Frea was one of the kings of Rohan and his name was mentioned in the roll of kings recited at Theoden's funeral. Not a goddess, but also a genuine Anglo-Saxon personal name for a man. AS mythology was not identical with, say, the Norse, at least as far as proper names go. I have no idea what the Saxons called Freya. I can only think of two explicit Anglo-Saxon connections in LOTR. One is the language of Rohan. The Rohirrim were not Anglo-Saxon, but their language was supposed to bear roughly the same relation to Westron that AS has to modern English. Tolkien therefore chose to "represent" their language in one of the AS dialects with which he was familiar - the Mercian, I believe. This is reflected in all their personal and place names as well. The other connection is the name Earendil, which is the Anglo-Saxon name for the planet Venus. Tolkien worked that word into his Eldarian languages (I forget which one) right from the beginning, and you will note that it denotes exactly the same thing, albeit as the personal name of an individual. > Is there any other indepth information/ideas/theories/etc that people could > share? Since i intend to study mythology in college, tolkien has captivated > me unlike any other.. The mythology is entirely Tolkien's own invention, although he did have his influences, of course. His son Christopher has published a number of books setting forth the earliest versions of the mythology and delving somewhat into the process of invention. If you really want to understand all this in depth, you have many books to read. You may want to begin with _Unfinished Tales_, a collection of miscellaneous writings connected with the published stories. Following that is the _History of Middle Earth_ series, beginning with _The Book of Lost Tales_ Part 1. The early volumes of HOME can be difficult to find in bookstores, but amazon.com carries them. -- Chris Csernica ###### From: "ilya popov" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37c4303b.236318270@NEWS.SUPERNEWS.COM> Subject: Re: underlying myths Lines: 71 Organization: www.thats-it.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: <4VGw3.1200$cQ2.148379@ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 20:31:11 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.36.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 935541440 24.128.36.166 (Tue, 24 Aug 1999 20:37:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 20:37:20 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail what would you reccomend? Since i'm a fan of fantasy (my entire summer school class at harvard summer extension course seemed none too pleased that i didn't write high art dramatics ala hemingway and whatnot) i've actually been working on a fantasy novel. The key thing i've realized is that in order to make the reader believe in the world, there has to be some depth to it, languages, a calendar, historical events and places, all the things that make life real, and i obviously don't want to ape tolkien (i'm working on a political story, something akin to the revolutionary war but with a fantasy setting) and norse mythology has always been a favorite subject of mine that i drifted away from as i discovered computers...but ive jumped back into lately, and i intend to take creative writing and mythology in college (marlboro college most likely) in order to expand my knowledge. but i'd like to learn as much as i can about how to go about avoiding the same problem other writers have run into, making the world 'realistic.' myself, i've always thought of lord of the rings as a documentary of middle earth, because it tended to remain in a third person perspective, and rarely would it jump to first. anyways, what ever help/advice/information/opinion/etc that i could recieve on this, the better...i'm trying to learn from the master, not ape his work. - ilya popov ###### From: softrat@pobox.com (softrat) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: underlying myths Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 00:09:45 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 37 Message-ID: <37c4303b.236318270@NEWS.SUPERNEWS.COM> References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!remarQ60!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:48:09 -0400, "ilya popov" wrote: >Is there any other indepth information/ideas/theories/etc that people could >share? Since i intend to study mythology in college, tolkien has captivated >me unlike any other.. > > - ilya popov There are volumes of information available on mythology in general and some few about Tolkien's world although IMHO most are really suitable for fertilizer or mulch. Mythology seems to be one of those subjects about which people love to spin long-winded fantasies and then call them analyses (see, for instance, The White Goddess by Robert Graves). Unfortunately most of the analysts of Tolkien's world fall into this category without even being as well versed in their subject. Tolkien's mythology is fairly personal, but major influences are Anglo-Saxon language and literature, Old Norse language and literature, and Finnish language and folk-literature. The series of twelve volumes, "The History of Middle-Earth", by Christopher Tolkien, his youngest son, makes that amply clear. BTW, the word 'Frea' in its various reflections in the Germanic Languages means 'lord' or 'the guy who is in charge'. 'Freya' is the feminine in Old Norse. We would call it 'lady'. If you plan to concentrate in mythology in college, it is almost essential that you have a feeling for and some knowledge of the older forms of the language of the people in question. Otherwise you can get lost in a sea of names. Many sources do not help understanding here as they merely use the author's favorite poetic translation or representation of the name without regard to how the name arose as a name. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com ###### From: "ilya popov" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37C3394C.2E84887C@ihwy.com> <37c37d8e.170827166@news.pc-intouch.com> Subject: Re: underlying myths Lines: 54 Organization: www.thats-it.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 01:29:09 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.36.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 935559255 24.128.36.166 (Wed, 25 Aug 1999 01:34:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 01:34:15 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail IIRC? so tolkien took old stories, gave the characters new names, changed the story around a bit, and the language as well, and nothing more, ESSENTIALLY? so then what of the english language which to this day is incomplete? what came of that? - ilya popov Mark Wells wrote in message <37c37d8e.170827166@news.pc-intouch.com>... >On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:31:08 -0700, Chris Csernica >wrote: > >>I can only think of two explicit Anglo-Saxon connections in LOTR. One >>is the language of Rohan. The Rohirrim were not Anglo-Saxon, but their >>language was supposed to bear roughly the same relation to Westron that >>AS has to modern English. Tolkien therefore chose to "represent" their >>language in one of the AS dialects with which he was familiar - the >>Mercian, I believe. This is reflected in all their personal and place >>names as well. > >I always thought that was very clever of him: to design a culture so >that their language was related to the common language in roughly the >same way in which the language he studied is related to the language >in which he wrote the book. > >>The other connection is the name Earendil, which is the Anglo-Saxon name >>for the planet Venus. Tolkien worked that word into his Eldarian >>languages (I forget which one) right from the beginning, and you will >>note that it denotes exactly the same thing, albeit as the personal name >>of an individual. > >The Anglo-Saxon word is, IIRC, 'Earendel'. Earendel was, IIRC, the >earliest element of Tolkien's mythology. (He became 'Earendil' later >because it worked better with the rest of the Quenya language.) > >>The mythology is entirely Tolkien's own invention, although he did have >>his influences, of course. His son Christopher has published a number > >In particular, the story of Túrin was based very heavily on the story >of Kullervo from the Kalevala. (We should also observe that the >Kalevala was written in Finnish, which was Tolkien's major inspiration >for the phonology of Quenya.) > ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: underlying myths Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37c37d8e.170827166@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <37C3394C.2E84887C@ihwy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-47.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 34 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:27:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 935558655 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:24:15 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:24:15 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:31:08 -0700, Chris Csernica wrote: >I can only think of two explicit Anglo-Saxon connections in LOTR. One >is the language of Rohan. The Rohirrim were not Anglo-Saxon, but their >language was supposed to bear roughly the same relation to Westron that >AS has to modern English. Tolkien therefore chose to "represent" their >language in one of the AS dialects with which he was familiar - the >Mercian, I believe. This is reflected in all their personal and place >names as well. I always thought that was very clever of him: to design a culture so that their language was related to the common language in roughly the same way in which the language he studied is related to the language in which he wrote the book. >The other connection is the name Earendil, which is the Anglo-Saxon name >for the planet Venus. Tolkien worked that word into his Eldarian >languages (I forget which one) right from the beginning, and you will >note that it denotes exactly the same thing, albeit as the personal name >of an individual. The Anglo-Saxon word is, IIRC, 'Earendel'. Earendel was, IIRC, the earliest element of Tolkien's mythology. (He became 'Earendil' later because it worked better with the rest of the Quenya language.) >The mythology is entirely Tolkien's own invention, although he did have >his influences, of course. His son Christopher has published a number In particular, the story of Túrin was based very heavily on the story of Kullervo from the Kalevala. (We should also observe that the Kalevala was written in Finnish, which was Tolkien's major inspiration for the phonology of Quenya.) ###### From: colinr@toliman.uio.no (Colin Rosenthal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: underlying myths Date: 25 Aug 1999 06:57:48 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 17 Message-ID: <7q045c$ecb$1@readme.uio.no> References: Reply-To: colin.rosenthal@astro.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Host: toliman.uio.no User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news-feed.ifi.uio.no!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!colinr On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:48:09 -0400, ilya popov wrote: >A friend of mine, who happens to be an enormous tolkien nut (the >silmarillion happens to be his favorite book) was sharing with me that he >had spent some time examining the core of tolkien's world, and that it's all >based on anglo saxon myths A fascinating theory, given that there are virtually no surviving Anglo-Saxon myths. Perhaps you should explain to your friend that the phrase "A Mythology for England" is intended precisely to convey that the original purpose of Tolkien's mythology was to replace the lost mythology of England. -- Colin Rosenthal Astrophysics Institute University of Oslo ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: underlying myths Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7q04g2$3mo_046@Org.xenite.org> References: X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 30 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:03:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.131 X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com X-Trace: news1 935564596 209.181.118.131 (Wed, 25 Aug 1999 03:03:16 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 03:03:16 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!news1.POSTED!Xenite In article , "ilya popov" wrote: >A friend of mine, who happens to be an enormous tolkien nut (the >silmarillion happens to be his favorite book) was sharing with me that he >had spent some time examining the core of tolkien's world, and that it's all >based on anglo saxon myths, which i believe are inherently germanic in >origin? The Anglo-Saxons were certainly Germanic, but THE SILMARILLION is not based on Anglo-Saxon myths. The tale of Turin Turambar, for example, is based on the Finnish story of Kullervo. >Since i've only just recently begun studying norse mythology again ( a love >of mine ) the only clue i had was the mention of a Frea near the end of >return of the king, and freya, being a norse goddess of fertility and love, >this struck me as being the only real noticable tie to anglo saxon >mythology. Earendil owes something of his story to the Norse/Germanic legends of Orvendil. There are some other inspirations -- THE SILMARILLION replaced what was to be (in Tolkien's intent) a mythology for England which was composed to be similar to (but distinct from) ancient northern European mythologies. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: underlying myths Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7q04m4$3mo_048@Org.xenite.org> References: <37C3394C.2E84887C@ihwy.com> <37c37d8e.170827166@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 23 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:06:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.131 X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com X-Trace: news1 935564790 209.181.118.131 (Wed, 25 Aug 1999 03:06:30 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 03:06:30 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!news.itconsult.net!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!news1.POSTED!Xenite In article , "ilya popov" wrote: >so tolkien took old stories, gave the characters new names, changed the >story around a bit, and the language as well, and nothing more, ESSENTIALLY? > No. That is incorrect. The stories are inspired by older myths, but he did not simply rework the legends. For instance, the Tolkien story about Venus is nothing like Thor's fishing expedition in which Orvendil's toe was frozen. >so then what of the english language which to this day is incomplete? what >came of that? Do you mean the Elvish languages? People study them and a group of people (I don't know how large) are actively enlarging them, although I'm not aware of what rules they have set for themselves. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: underlying myths Date: 25 Aug 1999 08:56:40 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 31 Message-ID: <7q13no$1ii9@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-545.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn In article , "ilya popov" wrote: >A friend of mine, who happens to be an enormous tolkien nut (the >silmarillion happens to be his favorite book) was sharing with me that he >had spent some time examining the core of tolkien's world, and that it's all >based on anglo saxon myths, which i believe are inherently germanic in >origin? The Anglo-Saxons were certainly Germanic, but THE SILMARILLION is not based on Anglo-Saxon myths. The tale of Turin Turambar, for example, is based on the Finnish story of Kullervo. >Since i've only just recently begun studying norse mythology again ( a love >of mine ) the only clue i had was the mention of a Frea near the end of >return of the king, and freya, being a norse goddess of fertility and love, >this struck me as being the only real noticable tie to anglo saxon >mythology. Earendil owes something of his story to the Norse/Germanic legends of Orvendil. There are some other inspirations -- THE SILMARILLION replaced what was to be (in Tolkien's intent) a mythology for England which was composed to be similar to (but distinct from) ancient northern European mythologies. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: underlying myths Date: 25 Aug 1999 08:56:58 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 24 Message-ID: <7q13oa$1ijp@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-547.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn In article , "ilya popov" wrote: >so tolkien took old stories, gave the characters new names, changed the >story around a bit, and the language as well, and nothing more, ESSENTIALLY? > No. That is incorrect. The stories are inspired by older myths, but he did not simply rework the legends. For instance, the Tolkien story about Venus is nothing like Thor's fishing expedition in which Orvendil's toe was frozen. >so then what of the english language which to this day is incomplete? what >came of that? Do you mean the Elvish languages? People study them and a group of people (I don't know how large) are actively enlarging them, although I'm not aware of what rules they have set for themselves. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org..........................................................