From: "Tim Crews" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Haldir's strange statement about hobbits Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <3tdw3.10962$3%1.2745@news.rdc1.az.home.com> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:07:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.216.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news.rdc1.az.home.com 935420863 24.1.216.12 (Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:07:43 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:07:43 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.az.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Hello: In the "Lothlorien" chapter of the Fellowship of the Ring, when Frodo and Haldir are first introduced, Haldir says, "We had not heard of -- hobbits, of halflings, for many a long year, and did not know that any yet dwelt in Middle-earth." So, not having read all of the History of Middle Earth books, I am wondering if someone is knowledgeable about the background behind this statement. Where would hobbits have dwelt before Middle-earth? And, as a race, how could the inhabitants of Lothlorien not know about them? How long had Lothlorien been secluding itself? Tim Crews timcrews@home.com ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Haldir's strange statement about hobbits Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Aug 1999 15:17:27 GMT References: <3tdw3.10962$3%1.2745@news.rdc1.az.home.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990823111727.13908.00001977@ngol04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <3tdw3.10962$3%1.2745@news.rdc1.az.home.com>, "Tim Crews" writes: > In the "Lothlorien" chapter of the Fellowship of the Ring, when >Frodo and Haldir are first introduced, Haldir says, > > "We had not heard of -- hobbits, of halflings, for many a long >year, and did not know that any yet dwelt in Middle-earth." > > So, not having read all of the History of Middle Earth books, >I am wondering if someone is knowledgeable about the >background behind this statement. Where would hobbits >have dwelt before Middle-earth? And, as a race, how could >the inhabitants of Lothlorien not know about them? How >long had Lothlorien been secluding itself? There are other here who can tell you much more but, Hobbits migrated from the East into Eriador long before the War of the Ring. In fact, they had a somewhat stable settlement north of Lorien at the Gladden Fields - remember Smeagol? I believe at least one group of hobbits, the Stoors, migrated south of the Misty Mountains and through the Gap of Rohan into Dunland and they would have passed close to Lorien. The Stoors, or at least some of them, actually went back east and would have again passed Lorien on their way out. However, by the time of the LOTR, hobbits hadn't been anywhere near Lorien for a while. Russ ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Haldir's strange statement about hobbits Date: 23 Aug 1999 15:57:12 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 29 Message-ID: <7prr0o$1pb8$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <3tdw3.10962$3%1.2745@news.rdc1.az.home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 935423832 58728 209.21.223.8 (23 Aug 1999 15:57:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Aug 1999 15:57:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail In article <3tdw3.10962$3%1.2745@news.rdc1.az.home.com>, Tim Crews wrote: >Hello: > > In the "Lothlorien" chapter of the Fellowship of the Ring, when >Frodo and Haldir are first introduced, Haldir says, > > "We had not heard of -- hobbits, of halflings, for many a long >year, and did not know that any yet dwelt in Middle-earth." > > So, not having read all of the History of Middle Earth books, >I am wondering if someone is knowledgeable about the >background behind this statement. Where would hobbits >have dwelt before Middle-earth? "Yet" in this context means "still". > And, as a race, how could >the inhabitants of Lothlorien not know about them? How >long had Lothlorien been secluding itself? Quite a while, I believe. Galadriel probably knew about hobbits, but their continued existence might not have been general knowledge among the people of Lothlórien. -- -------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)------------------------- "Don't take life so serious, son -- it ain't nohow permanent." --Porkypine (Walt Kelly) ###### From: "Tim Crews" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3tdw3.10962$3%1.2745@news.rdc1.az.home.com> <19990823111727.13908.00001977@ngol04.aol.com> Subject: Re: Haldir's strange statement about hobbits Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:49:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.216.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news.rdc1.az.home.com 935426988 24.1.216.12 (Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:49:48 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:49:48 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.az.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Russ: So, your answer would imply that "the East" is not part of Middle-Earth? I would have said that the entire continent (including both Eriador and the Eastern regions) would be considered Middle-Earth. Tim McREsq wrote in message news:19990823111727.13908.00001977@ngol04.aol.com... > In article <3tdw3.10962$3%1.2745@news.rdc1.az.home.com>, "Tim Crews" > writes: > > > > > "We had not heard of -- hobbits, of halflings, for many a long > >year, and did not know that any yet dwelt in Middle-earth." > > > > There are other here who can tell you much more but, Hobbits migrated from the > East into Eriador long before the War of the Ring. > Russ > > ###### From: "Tim Crews" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3tdw3.10962$3%1.2745@news.rdc1.az.home.com> <7prr0o$1pb8$1@newsie2.cent.net> Subject: Re: Haldir's strange statement about hobbits Lines: 48 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:01:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.216.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news.rdc1.az.home.com 935427692 24.1.216.12 (Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:01:32 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:01:32 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.az.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Robert: Drat, this English language! The fact that the word "yet" can connote two nearly opposite ideas is very inconvenient. But I can see how you might be right. This would be consistent with what I understood of the history of hobbits. The alternative is pretty hard to make sense of. If "yet" were understood in the more typical (modern, I guess) sense, Haldir's statement would imply that 1) Hobbits existed outside of Middle-earth long ago. 2) The elves knew about them at that time. 3) At some point hobbits showed up in Middle-earth. 4) The folk of Lothlorien had been secluded for the _entire_ recorded history of Hobbits in Middle-Earth. (or were atypically ignorant of their surroundings.) Thanks, Tim Robert S. Coren wrote in message news:7prr0o$1pb8$1@newsie2.cent.net... > In article <3tdw3.10962$3%1.2745@news.rdc1.az.home.com>, > Tim Crews wrote: > >Hello: > > > > > > "We had not heard of -- hobbits, of halflings, for many a long > >year, and did not know that any yet dwelt in Middle-earth." > > > > "Yet" in this context means "still". > > -------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)------------------------- > "Don't take life so serious, son -- it ain't nohow permanent." > --Porkypine (Walt Kelly) > ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Haldir's strange statement about hobbits Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Aug 1999 17:07:56 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990823130756.14754.00001704@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.239.227!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , "Tim Crews" writes: > So, your answer would imply that "the East" is not part >of Middle-Earth? I would have said that the entire continent >(including both Eriador and the Eastern regions) would be >considered Middle-Earth. > >Tim > No, my answer explains why Haldir did not hear of any hobbits recently. Lorien had been a secretive realm for quite some time. They also probably didn't hear about internal politics of Southron kingdoms or about the last grape harvest in Rhovanion. He wasn't even familiar with what was going on in Thranduil's kingdom. Hobbits hadn't been anywhere near Lorien for a thousand years (someone else supply accurate figure) so he didn't know their fate until Frodo came along. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Haldir's strange statement about hobbits Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Aug 1999 17:11:10 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990823131110.14754.00001705@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nntp.psi.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , "Tim Crews" writes: > Drat, this English language! The fact that the word >"yet" can connote two nearly opposite ideas is very >inconvenient. But I can see how you might be right. >This would be consistent with what I understood of >the history of hobbits. > > The alternative is pretty hard to make sense of. >If "yet" were understood in the more typical (modern, >I guess) sense, Haldir's statement would imply that > >1) Hobbits existed outside of Middle-earth long ago. >2) The elves knew about them at that time. >3) At some point hobbits showed up in Middle-earth. >4) The folk of Lothlorien had been secluded for the > _entire_ recorded history of Hobbits in Middle-Earth. > (or were atypically ignorant of their surroundings.) I think it just meant that the Elves of Lorien knew of hobbit and that the were around in the past. They hadn't seen them for quite some time and didn't know what happened to them and therefore didn't know any existed anymore. Russ