Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Adding a little clarity (was Re: Haldir's strange statement about hobbits) Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7psjqp$2g4_032@Org.xenite.org> References: <3tdw3.10962$3%1.2745@news.rdc1.az.home.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 171 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:00:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.201 X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com X-Trace: news3.usenetserver.com 935449836 207.224.149.201 (Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:10:36 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:10:36 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.tli.de!do.de.uu.net!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!news3.usenetserver.com.POSTED!Xenite In article <3tdw3.10962$3%1.2745@news.rdc1.az.home.com>, "Tim Crews" wrote: >Hello: Hello, I've seen several followups and some followups from you to the followups, but I'm not sure you got the full answer you were looking for. > > In the "Lothlorien" chapter of the Fellowship of the Ring, when >Frodo and Haldir are first introduced, Haldir says, > > "We had not heard of -- hobbits, of halflings, for many a long >year, and did not know that any yet dwelt in Middle-earth." > > So, not having read all of the History of Middle Earth books, >I am wondering if someone is knowledgeable about the >background behind this statement. Where would hobbits >have dwelt before Middle-earth? And, as a race, how could >the inhabitants of Lothlorien not know about them? How >long had Lothlorien been secluding itself? As Robert Coren pointed out, "yet" means "still" here. We know from "The Shadow of the Past" that Gollum's people (akin to the ancestors of the Stoors in Gandalf's argument) lived in the Vales of Anduin near or along the Gladden River. If you look at the LOTR map you'll see the Gladden is only a little ways (some considerable distance in miles) north of Lothlorien. When Meriadoc and Peregrin are introduced to King Theoden he mentions that his people carried stories of Hobbits out of the north, and Legolas says it's been five hundred years since the Rohirrim settled in Rohan. The Galadhrim have been a reclusive and secretive people for many years, probably since the departure of Amroth, Nimrodel, and many of their people in the year 1981 (more than a thousand years before). In "The Tale of Years" Saruman' learns that Sauron's servants are searching for the One Ring near the Gladden Fields in the year 2939. Although we don't know when the Stoors of the Gladden River moved or died out, they seem to have been long gone by this time. Elsewhere (and later, after the publication of THE LORD OF THE RINGS) Tolkien wrote there may have been some Stoors left in the region, but they would have been driven off by the Nazgul in 3018. As for where Hobbits dwelt in the past, I can offer a mixture of conjecture and facts. Tolkien says they were a sub-group of Men, so they or their ancestors (assuming they "evolved" or were bred from an earlier group or groups) awoke with other Men in Hildorien (or whatever land became its successor in the revised legendarium). Morgoth deceived and seduced most if not all Men for at least a couple of generations before they began rebelling and leaving the region (there is evidence, however, that Tolkien may have believed the Druedain never really took part in the Fall). So, where did the Hobbit forefathers go from Hildorien? I believe they passed northward and settled in one or more lands near a range of mountains where Dwarves must have lived. From the First Age (of the Sun) year circa 50 to Second Age year 1701 we have absolutely no knowledge of Hobbits, their whereabouts, or their culture. Tolkien only says their beginnings lie far back in the Elder Days, and that term usually is applied to the First Age of the Sun and previous ages (though not always). In THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH we learn from "Of Dwarves and Men" that the Edainic peoples of Wilderland (essentially the Vales of Anduin, Greenwood the Great, and the lands as far eastward as the river Carnen) were mostly descended of the same group as the Third House of the Edain, the Marachians or Folk of Hador (often referred to in LOTR as "The House of Hador", although Tolkien discontinued such usage, or qualified it, in later years). These ancient Edainic peoples formed an alliance with the Longbeard Dwarves of Khazad-dum which Sauron destroyed in the War of the Elves and Sauron. The Edainic peoples were driven into the deep woods or into the mountains, and most seem to have fled into the far north. We don't hear anything more about them until Isildur's company was ambushed in the second year of the Third Age, some 1700+ years later. By that time there were Woodmen dwelling in the forest near Amon Lanc (the hill in the southern reaches of the forest where Sauron later built Dol Guldur) and "The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves" in UNFINISHED TALES reports that the "Free Men of the North" were about this time starting to recolonize the lands east of Greenwood in the northern regions, close to where Erebor stood. Some were also moving southward in the Vales of Anduin and along the western eaves of the forest. In "Of Dwarves and Men" Tolkien reports that the early Hobbits, when they first arrived in the Vales of Anduin, often lived close by or with Men much as in Bree, engaging in a symbiotic cultural exchange which benefitted both peoples. The Hobbits, therefore, must have arrived in the Vales of Anduin sometime in the first millenium of the Third Age, or else they had settled there late in the Second Age after the Edainic peoples had been driven away. I favor the former view. Gil-galad's power grew to include even the Vales of Anduin during Sauron's sojourn in Numenor, and there is no mention of Hobbits in the tales of Men or Elves prior to the Third Age. So, it seems most likely the Hobbits migrated eastward during the later half of the Second Age and probably did not cross the Celduin and Greenwood until the early Third Age. The Hobbits were probably divided into three groups already by the time they settled in the Vales of Anduin. The Fallohides were most likely the eastern group and they may have had contact with Thranduil's people in Greenwood -- so I would place them north of the Old Forest Road and perhaps no farther than the Carroack, about where Beorn's lands were. The Harfoots may have lived in the lands east of Anduin between the Old Forest Road and the Gladden River, roughly the western region of the lands later possessed by the Beornings. The Stoors seem to have settled along the Gladden River. When Sauron established himself on Amon Lanc the Harfoots left their homes and crossed the River. Tolkien says there was once an ancient bridge there but he doesn't say when it was destroyed. The most likely event for its destruction would have been the War of the Elves and Sauron, but it's also possible the bridge survived into the Third Age. In any event, the Harfoots must have crossed the River either by this bridge or through the ford which replaced it. They then turned passed over the mountains into Eriador, settling in western Rhudaur. About a hundred years later the Fallohides crossed the mountains to the NORTH of Rivendell, and thus were not using the Old Forest Road. So I think they must have crossed at the Carrock. They, too, appear to have settled in western Rhudaur at this time. Around the same time the Stoors left the Gladden River and passed SOUTH to the region of Khazad-dum and Lothlorien, and they crossed the mountains via the Redhorn Pass, entering Dunland. Some of them turned north and went to the Angle in Rhudaur, that wedge of land just southwest of Rivendell between the Mitheithel and Bruinen rivers. Those Stoors who remained in Dunland actually settled close to Tharbad. Why did they leave the Vales of Anduin? Apparently Easterlings were settling in southern Mirkwood and spreading north along the edge of the Forest. Tolkien says that Men of non-Edainic descent were increasing in the Vales. This was around the year 1150, which was about 100 years before Minalcar of Gondor took an interest in the Northmen. Many of the Northmen had apparently already left the Vales of Anduin to settle in the lands south of Greenwood. Thus the region was depopulated and the Hobbits must have been left without any secure defense against the incursions of the Easterlings. It was these Easterlings whom Minalcar took action against in 1248. He defeated them and destroyed all their homes BEYOND the Sea of Rhun. But though the Easterlings' power was broken and Dol Guldur pretty much cut off from them for a while, the Hobbits were already gone. When the Lord of the Nazgul estabblished the Realm of Angmar around the year 1300 the Hobbits fled Rhudaur. The Harfoots and Fallohides migrated west past the Weather Hills and settled in various regions, including Bree. The Stoors of the Angle split up into two groups. Some went south to Dunland to join the other Stoors there and others passed east over the mountains to return to the Gladden River. This last group were the ancestors of Gollum's people. They don't appear to have been many in number and Tolkien suggests in one place they probably dwindled in number from that time onward. Hence, it's entirely conceivable that Haldir hadn't heard of Hobbits since the time of the great migration, although some concession should be made to the possibility that he had heard of Gollum's people but that they may have died out or moved away after Gollum left them in 2470. The Watchful Peace ended in 2463 and Sauron now returned to Dol Guldur with greater strength than before. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org...............................................