From: lcq9@aol.com (Kio) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Aug 1999 04:30:22 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990822003022.11091.00002467@ng-bh1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.239.227!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Question: How is it that Prince Imrahil has Elven blood in him? There were only three unions of Elves and Men (as we all know) Luthien&Beren, Idril&Tour, and Arwen&Aragorn and I don't see how he could be a descendent of any of them. Leogolas clearly says at some part in the LotR that he knew by the look that Prince Imrahil was from an Elvish strain.(I do not have the books handy and I can not find the specific quote, sorry.) Is there something I am Missing? Lcq9@aol.com ###### Message-ID: <37BFF819.7918D3FC@wizard.net> From: "James Russell Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? References: <19990822003022.11091.00002467@ng-bh1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 56 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.32 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 935327440 206.161.15.32 (Sun, 22 Aug 1999 09:10:40 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 09:10:40 EDT Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 09:16:09 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!hub1.ispnews.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Kio wrote: > > Question: > > How is it that Prince Imrahil has Elven blood in him? There were only three > unions of Elves and Men (as we all know) Luthien&Beren, Idril&Tour, and > Arwen&Aragorn and I don't see how he could be a descendent of any of them. > Leogolas clearly says at some part in the LotR that he knew by the look that > Prince Imrahil was from an Elvish strain.(I do not have the books handy and I > can not find the specific quote, sorry.) Is there something I am Missing? Re-read "Lothlorien" in tFotR. It gives the legend of Nimrodel, after whom the stream was named, and her lover Amroth, after whom Dol Amroth was named. That's the same Nimrodel who's people are supposed to include an ancestress of the Lords of Dol Amroth. The full story isn't given in the LotR; you have to look in "Unfinished Tales", under "History of Galadriel and Celeborn", in the section titled "Amroth and Nimrodel": "As Legolas' mention of Nimrodel shows, there was an ancient Elvish port near Dol Amroth, and a small settlement of Silvan Elves there from Lorien. The legend of the prince's line was that one of their earliest fathers had wedded an Elf-maiden: in some versions i was indeed (evidently improbably) said to have been Nimrodel herself. In other tales, and more probably, it was one of Nimrodel's companions who was lost in the upper mountain glens." ... "In the tradition of his house Angelimar was the twentieth in unbroken descent from Galador, first Lord of Dol Amroth (c. Third Age 2004-2129). According to the same traditions Galador was the son of Imrazor the Numenorean, who dwelt in Belfalas, and the Elven-lady Mithrellas. She was one of the companions of Nimrodels, among many of the Elves that fled to the coast abou the year 1980 of the Third Age, when evil arose in Moria; and Nimrodel and her maidens strayed in the wooded hills, and were lost. Bin in this tale it is said that Imrazor harboured Mithrellas, and took her to wife. But when she had borne him a son, Galador, and a daughter, Gilmith, she slipped away by night and he saw her no more. But though Mithrellas was of the lesser Silvan race ( and not of the High Elves or the Grey) it was ever held that the house and kin of the Lords of Dol Amroth was noble by blood as they were fair in face and mind." Another example of how even the "blood" of a mere elf-maiden of the "lesser Silvan race" was considered to ennoble her mostly-human descendants. The statement that there were only three unions of Elves and Men can be explained on several different grounds: 1. The statement was a traditional one, dating from long before 2004 TA, and it was not felt to be worth updating. 2. Ancestor worship: unions from the First Age were important, unions occurring in the Third Age were less so. 3. Class consciousness: Mithrellas was only of Silvan ancestry, and not royalty, and therefore less important. 4. Recognizing a fourth union would break the sacred three-ness. ###### From: elyse Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 13:53:30 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <7povcp$a0q$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <19990822003022.11091.00002467@ng-bh1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.151.225.202 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Aug 22 13:53:30 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/2.0 (compatible; MSIE 3.02; Windows 95) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x36.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 205.151.225.202 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDelyse1999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <19990822003022.11091.00002467@ng-bh1.aol.com>, lcq9@aol.com (Kio) wrote: > Question: > > How is it that Prince Imrahil has Elven blood in him? There were only three > unions of Elves and Men (as we all know) Luthien&Beren, Idril&Tour, and > Arwen&Aragorn and I don't see how he could be a descendent of any of them. > Leogolas clearly says at some part in the LotR that he knew by the look that > Prince Imrahil was from an Elvish strain.(I do not have the books handy and I > can not find the specific quote, sorry.) Is there something I am Missing? > > Lcq9@aol.com > The Tree Unions bit refers strictly to the Eldar and the Edain. The Eldar refers to the elves that went on the journey to Valinor in the beginning. The elvish blood in Imrahil's line refers to his ancestor having an elvish wife, but she wasn't Eldar. There is a section in Unfinished Tales that explains this. See the history of Galadriel and Celeborn. -- Eruve (who is fully expecting to be corrected on minor details of this answer, and who doesn't really care!! :-P) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### Message-ID: <37C057DF.69ECDD43@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? References: <19990822003022.11091.00002467@ng-bh1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 34 Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:04:47 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 935352365 24.128.99.214 (Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:06:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:06:05 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Kio wrote: > Question: > > How is it that Prince Imrahil has Elven blood in him? There were only three > unions of Elves and Men (as we all know) Luthien&Beren, Idril&Tour, and > Arwen&Aragorn and I don't see how he could be a descendent of any of them. > Leogolas clearly says at some part in the LotR that he knew by the look that > Prince Imrahil was from an Elvish strain.(I do not have the books handy and I > can not find the specific quote, sorry.) Is there something I am Missing? > > Lcq9@aol.com >A couple passages from UT relate to Imrahil's 'Elvish strain'; one passage goes: 'As Legolas' mention of Nimrodel shows, there was an ancient Elvish port near Dol Amroth, and a settlement of Silvan Elves there from Lorien. The legend of the prince's line was that one of their earliest fathers had wedded an Elf-maiden: in some versions it was indeed (evidently improbably) said to have been Nimrodel herself. In other tales, and more probably, it was one of Nimrodel's companions who was lost in the upper mountain glens.' A note appended to the genealogy of the line of Dol Amroth gives a few more details, and names the companion of Nimrodel. There, Galador, first lord of Dol Amroth, was the son of Imrazôr the Numenorean, and the Elven-lady Mithrellas. Silvan Elvish heritage apparently gives Imrahil his special Elvish strain, according to it's own legends -- and the Silvan Elves were not counted as Eldar. Cheers, Cian ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Aug 1999 18:02:53 GMT References: <19990822003022.11091.00002467@ng-bh1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990822140253.05945.00001763@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <19990822003022.11091.00002467@ng-bh1.aol.com>, lcq9@aol.com (Kio) writes: >Question: > > How is it that Prince Imrahil has Elven blood in him? There were only three >unions of Elves and Men (as we all know) Luthien&Beren, Idril&Tour, and >Arwen&Aragorn and I don't see how he could be a descendent of any of them. >Leogolas clearly says at some part in the LotR that he knew by the look that >Prince Imrahil was from an Elvish strain.(I do not have the books handy and I >can not find the specific quote, sorry.) Is there something I am Missing? > The standard (uh oh) answer is that Tolkien said there were three marriages of *eldar* and edain. He didn't account for Avari-edain marriages. Russ ###### From: gordonlew@aol.com (Gordon Nash) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Aug 1999 02:56:46 GMT References: <37BFF819.7918D3FC@wizard.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990822225646.21506.00002248@ng-ba1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.239.227!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail > How is it that Prince Imrahil has Elven >blood in him? There were only three > unions of Elves and Men It actually says three unions of Eldar and Edain. Perhaps Imrahil had Avari ancestory. Feanole aka DrWhoFru ###### Message-ID: <37C16629.F0DD3FDC@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? References: <37C057DF.69ECDD43@mediaone.net> <19990823101236.15608.00001785@ngol06.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:18:01 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 935421559 24.128.99.214 (Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:19:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:19:19 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > This was explained to me once. Silvan's were generally not Avari; they were > generally Nandor, who are considered Eldar. Yes, the UT index does seem to confirm this. I was going with Robert Fosters index, which must be outdated by UT standards on this point. I did notice that Nandorin Elves 'swelled' the population at the port at one time, which to my mind, seemed to be a further distinction from 'Silvan', but I guess Tolkien was just employing both terms interchangeably. With respect to the Eldar/Edain unions then, for Prince Imrahil's Elvish strain, I guess we must add another one to the count. Seems as Avari would have been the easier choice. Oh well. Cheers, Cian ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Aug 1999 14:12:36 GMT References: <37C057DF.69ECDD43@mediaone.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990823101236.15608.00001785@ngol06.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37C057DF.69ECDD43@mediaone.net>, Cian writes: >Silvan Elvish heritage apparently gives Imrahil his special Elvish strain, >according to it's own legends -- and the Silvan Elves were not counted as >Eldar. > >Cheers, >Cian This was explained to me once. Silvan's were generally not Avari; they were generally Nandor, who are considered Eldar. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7psgrj$2g4_024@Org.xenite.org> References: <37C057DF.69ECDD43@mediaone.net> <19990823101236.15608.00001785@ngol06.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 31 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:09:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.201 X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com X-Trace: news3.usenetserver.com 935446788 207.224.149.201 (Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:19:48 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:19:48 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!news3.usenetserver.com.POSTED!Xenite In article <19990823101236.15608.00001785@ngol06.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <37C057DF.69ECDD43@mediaone.net>, Cian >writes: > >>Silvan Elvish heritage apparently gives Imrahil his special Elvish strain, >>according to it's own legends -- and the Silvan Elves were not counted as >>Eldar. >> >>Cheers, >>Cian > >This was explained to me once. Silvan's were generally not Avari; they were >generally Nandor, who are considered Eldar. The Silvan Elves were a mixture of Avari and Nandor, according to Tolkien. However, the Silvan Elves were accounted to be distinct from the Eldar, since THE LORD OF THE RINGS speaks of the West-elves [Eldar] and the East-elves [Silvan Elves]. When Tolkien wrote "there were three unions of the Eldar and Edain" he undoubtedly had this division of peoples in mind. The Nandor + Avari = Silvan Elves identification arose years later, and is only documented (I think) in THE WAR OF THE JEWELS. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "nholford" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <19990822003022.11091.00002467@ng-bh1.aol.com> Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:12:36 +0100 Lines: 26 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <37c1c762_2@news2.vip.uk.com> X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@vip.uk.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.176.194.174 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.250.101.2 X-Trace: 23 Aug 1999 23:12:52 GMT, 10.250.101.2 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@vip.uk.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!news1.vip.uk.com!10.250.101.2 There were only three unions between men and ELDAR, not men and elves. Imrahil had some elvish blood in him, but it was Silvan blood. (see UT section on Galadriel - it gives some information) Neil Kio wrote in message <19990822003022.11091.00002467@ng-bh1.aol.com>... >Question: > > How is it that Prince Imrahil has Elven blood in him? There were only three >unions of Elves and Men (as we all know) Luthien&Beren, Idril&Tour, and >Arwen&Aragorn and I don't see how he could be a descendent of any of them. >Leogolas clearly says at some part in the LotR that he knew by the look that >Prince Imrahil was from an Elvish strain.(I do not have the books handy and I >can not find the specific quote, sorry.) Is there something I am Missing? > > >Lcq9@aol.com ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 39 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Aug 1999 23:15:12 GMT References: <7psgrj$2g4_024@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990823191512.13949.00001998@ngol04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7psgrj$2g4_024@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>This was explained to me once. Silvan's were generally not Avari; they were >>generally Nandor, who are considered Eldar. > >The Silvan Elves were a mixture of Avari and Nandor, according to Tolkien. >However, the Silvan Elves were accounted to be distinct from the Eldar, >since THE LORD OF THE RINGS speaks of the West-elves [Eldar] and the >East-elves [Silvan Elves]. > >When Tolkien wrote "there were three unions of the Eldar and Edain" he >undoubtedly had this division of peoples in mind. > >The Nandor + Avari = Silvan Elves identification arose years later, and is >only documented (I think) in THE WAR OF THE JEWELS. > My understanding was that Avari migration to the west (say west of the longitide of erebor) was pretty limited. My original statement was made more to indicate proportion. In other words, I *think* that the Nandor component of Silvan is higher than that Avari component. I thought that the split between Eldar and Avari was made at the Great Journey stage and no subsequent migration could change that. The converse was also true: those Eldar who gave up the journey early (or even late) remained Eldar. Thereforen any Avari (including Silvan Avari) marriage with an Edain would be outside Tolkien 3 marriages statement. I'm not sure I understand your point correctly. Are you saying that Tolkien's earlier conception of eldar and non-eldar was geographic migration patterns rather than the decision made at the start of the great journey? If so, that would open up even more possibilities for non-Eldar/Edain marriages. Russ Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7psmg7$2g4_048@Org.xenite.org> References: <7psgrj$2g4_024@Org.xenite.org> <19990823191512.13949.00001998@ngol04.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 125 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:46:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.73 X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com X-Trace: news3.usenetserver.com 935452567 207.224.147.73 (Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:56:07 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:56:07 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.new-york.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!news3.usenetserver.com.POSTED!Xenite In article <19990823191512.13949.00001998@ngol04.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7psgrj$2g4_024@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: >>When Tolkien wrote "there were three unions of the Eldar and Edain" he >>undoubtedly had this division of peoples in mind. >> >>The Nandor + Avari = Silvan Elves identification arose years later, and is >>only documented (I think) in THE WAR OF THE JEWELS. >> > >My understanding was that Avari migration to the west (say west of the >longitide of erebor) was pretty limited. My original statement was made more to >indicate proportion. In other words, I *think* that the Nandor component of >Silvan is higher than that Avari component. Actually, there were Avari all over the place. They had reached Beleriand by the time the Noldor returned. But there is no way of knowing how many Nandor joined with how many Avari to produce the Silvan Elves. In recent private communication with an ICE writer who is preparing an article for OTHER HANDS, I've discussed the possibility that the Noldor -- being quite proud and contentious -- may have comprised most of the named groups of the Avari (this was actually suggested by the writer, not me). His justification for drawing that conclusion is an analysis of the transformations Tolkien records in "Quendi and Eldar" for names of "tribes" derived from the ancient form of "quendi". Basically, he ruled out all shifts except the one which produced "Penni" for Telerin forms. i.e., of all the Avari groups Tolkien named, only the Penni were Teleri. These were, also, the group of Avari who joined with the Nandor remaining in the Vales of Anduin (remember many of them had left) to become the Silvan Elves. The Nelyar (from whom came the Teleri) breakdown (based on the 144 system) given in "Quendi and Eldar" is: Avari Amanyar Sindar and Nandor ----- ------- ----------------- 28 20 26 Well, the Avari outnumbered the Sindar and Nandor together, so the Nandor who remained in the Vales of Anduin must have been very few compared to all Nelyarin Avari. The question arises of whether the Penni were in fact all the Avarin Nelyar or if there were one or more other groups. If we assume (we can really do nothing else but make hypothetical guesses at this point) that the Penni were all the Avarin Nelyar, then it is clear that the Silvan Elves were mostly of Avarin descent. If we assume, however, that one or more other groups existed, then we run into problems. In what proportions would Tolkien have made those divisions? Half the Tatyar became Noldor, and half became Avari: 28 & 28. If Jeff is correct in his analysis of the language changes, then there were five groups of Avarin Tatyar: Kindi, Cuind, Hwenti, Windan, and Kinn-lai. BUT...Tolkien complicates matters by saying that there were already some Nelyarin Avari among the Nandor whom Denethor led to Ossiriand. Were these descended of the Penni, or another group? If another group, then were they a Nelyarin group or were they a Tatyarin group? >I thought that the split between Eldar and Avari was made at the Great Journey >stage and no subsequent migration could change that. The converse was also >true: those Eldar who gave up the journey early (or even late) remained Eldar. >Thereforen any Avari (including Silvan Avari) marriage with an Edain would be >outside Tolkien 3 marriages statement. But a Nandor marriage with an Adan would not be outside Tolkien's statement. One must ask if Mithrellas was regarded of the Avari or the Eldar. How is one to determine? By the Third Age, the invitation of the Valar was again open to all Elves, Eldar and Avari. >I'm not sure I understand your point correctly. Are you saying that Tolkien's >earlier conception of eldar and non-eldar was geographic migration patterns >rather than the decision made at the start of the great journey? If so, that >would open up even more possibilities for non-Eldar/Edain marriages. Okay, here goes. At the time THE LORD OF THE RINGS was published, Tolkien seems to have envisioned the following divisions: Eldar Avari -------------------------------------- ------------ | | +-------+-------+ | Vanyar Noldor Falmari Sindar Nandor Silvan Elves Simple, right? However, things got more complicated as the years went by, and he eventually formed this idea: Minyar Tatyar Nelyar | | | Vanyar +------+-----+ +----+-----+ | | | | Tatyar Noldor Teleri Nelyar | | | | +-Kindi +-Exiles +-Nandor +-Penni +-Cuind +-Aman Noldor | +-Hwenti +-Sindar +-Windan | +-Kinn-lai +-Falmari I've left out all the subdivisions of the Nandor, Sindar, and Noldorin Exiles, but obviously the Penni are here the Elven group who become the Silvan Elves (along with some Nandor). Where did these Tatyarin groups live? In Eriador and Beleriand, apparently, but most likely in Eriador. I'm not sure if any of them actually made it to Beleriand, but then, it might be reasonable to argue that they would be the most likely to have made it to Beleriand, since the Penni settled in the Vales of Anduin. Also, in the conception where Eol is a Tatyarin Elf, there is a strong implication that other Avari in Beleriand are also Tatyarin. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 106 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 26 Aug 1999 03:27:39 GMT References: <7psmg7$2g4_048@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990825232739.26115.00002863@ngol01.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.abs.net!netnews.com!news.idt.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nntp.psi.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7psmg7$2g4_048@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: Thanks for the detailed reply. I had to do a little background research before I could attempt to reply to this... >Well, the Avari outnumbered the Sindar and Nandor together, so the Nandor >who remained in the Vales of Anduin must have been very few compared to all >Nelyarin Avari. The question arises of whether the Penni were in fact all >the Avarin Nelyar or if there were one or more other groups. >>I thought that the split between Eldar and Avari was made at the Great >Journey >>stage and no subsequent migration could change that. The converse was also >>true: those Eldar who gave up the journey early (or even late) remained >Eldar. >>Thereforen any Avari (including Silvan Avari) marriage with an Edain would >be >>outside Tolkien 3 marriages statement. > >But a Nandor marriage with an Adan would not be outside Tolkien's >statement. One must ask if Mithrellas was regarded of the Avari or the >Eldar. How is one to determine? By the Third Age, the invitation of the >Valar was again open to all Elves, Eldar and Avari. But that wouldn't change their classification. Just because the ban was lifted all the Avari didn't suddenly become Eldar. It presumes too much: like they want to leave Middle Earth. The main question answers itself however: The elven blood in Imrahil's line came from an Avari Silvan Elf. > >>I'm not sure I understand your point correctly. Are you saying that >Tolkien's >>earlier conception of eldar and non-eldar was geographic migration patterns >>rather than the decision made at the start of the great journey? If so, >that >>would open up even more possibilities for non-Eldar/Edain marriages. > >Okay, here goes. At the time THE LORD OF THE RINGS was published, Tolkien >seems to have envisioned the following divisions: > > > Eldar Avari > -------------------------------------- ------------ > | | +-------+-------+ | > Vanyar Noldor Falmari Sindar Nandor Silvan Elves > >Simple, right? > >However, things got more complicated as the years went by, and he >eventually formed this idea: > > > Minyar Tatyar Nelyar > | | | > Vanyar +------+-----+ +----+-----+ > | | | | > Tatyar Noldor Teleri Nelyar > | | | | > +-Kindi +-Exiles +-Nandor +-Penni > +-Cuind +-Aman Noldor | > +-Hwenti +-Sindar > +-Windan | > +-Kinn-lai +-Falmari > >I've left out all the subdivisions of the Nandor, Sindar, and Noldorin >Exiles, but obviously the Penni are here the Elven group who become the >Silvan Elves (along with some Nandor). > >Where did these Tatyarin groups live? In Eriador and Beleriand, >apparently, but most likely in Eriador. I'm not sure if any of them >actually made it to Beleriand, but then, it might be reasonable to argue >that they would be the most likely to have made it to Beleriand, since the >Penni settled in the Vales of Anduin. Also, in the conception where Eol is >a Tatyarin Elf, there is a strong implication that other Avari in Beleriand >are also Tatyarin. OK. But I'm still confused as to how this impacts on whether Tolkiens statment that there were three unions of eldar and edain impacts on possible edain/Avari unions. While the idea was not yet fully developed, Tolkien wrote that there were non-Eldar in the West of ME (my def is west of longitide of Erebor and north of latitude of mordor). Yes Tolkien at first appears to make a geographic distinction (west elves vs. east elves) but in App. F, Of the Elves, states: The Exiles, dwelling among the more numerous Grey-elves, had adopted the Sindarin for daily use; and hence it was the tongue for all those Elves and Elf-lords that appear in tis history. *For these were all of Eldarin race*, even where the folk they ruled were of lesser kindreds. This passage limits the Eldarin race in ME to the Exiles (Noldor) and the Sindar. The lesser kindreds are therfore not Eldar. Thus Tolkien tells us there are non- Eldar living in the "west" of Middle Earth. Taking this out further, it is one of the non-Eldarin lesser kindreds that provided the Elvish element in the princes of Dol Amroth. The Lhammas was written prior to the LOTR and clearly indicates that Tolkien was considering the more complicated distinctions earlier. Russ ###### Message-ID: <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? References: <7psmg7$2g4_048@Org.xenite.org> <19990825232739.26115.00002863@ngol01.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:54:44 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 935686565 24.128.99.214 (Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:56:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:56:05 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > While the idea was not yet fully developed, Tolkien wrote that there were > non-Eldar in the West of ME (my def is west of longitide of Erebor and north of > latitude of mordor). Yes Tolkien at first appears to make a geographic > distinction (west elves vs. east elves) but in App. F, Of the Elves, states: > > The Exiles, dwelling among the more numerous Grey-elves, had adopted the > Sindarin for daily use; and hence it was the tongue for all those Elves and > Elf-lords that appear in tis history. *For these were all of Eldarin race*, > even where the folk they ruled were of lesser kindreds. > > This passage limits the Eldarin race in ME to the Exiles (Noldor) and the > Sindar. The lesser kindreds are therfore not Eldar. Thus Tolkien tells us > there are non- Eldar living in the "west" of Middle Earth. Taking this out > further, it is one of the non-Eldarin lesser kindreds that provided the Elvish > element in the princes of Dol Amroth. > Tolkien writes that Mithrellas was of the lesser 'Silvan' race in UT, but then, lesser compared to whom? Earlier, I relied on Robert Foster's 'Silvan' probably = Avari, but then I note these quotes below. I'm getting a headache. UT -- 'The Silvan Elves were in origin Teleri' (Eldar) And, the UT -and Silmarillion- indexs for 'Silvan Elves' - Nandorin Elves who never passed west of the Misty Mountains, but remained in the vale of Anduin and in Greenwood the Great.' (Eldar, using the LOTR's 'People of the Great Journey' distinction) And also from the UT appendices: 'The Silvan Elves and Their Speech' 'The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered peoples, hardly to be distinguished from the Avari; but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan, and they welcomed ...' and so on, about the Noldor and Sindar. (Eldar again) Cheers, Cian 'Hey Gollum, say 'fastnesses' three times fast!' Fasstnessessess, fassstnessesssssssssss, gollum, fasssssstnesssssessssesssssssssssssssssssssss ###### Message-ID: <37C58132.7214FB61@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? References: <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net> <19990826133422.15888.00002152@ngol06.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:02:26 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 935690626 24.128.99.214 (Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:03:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:03:46 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > I think the point MM was making is that at the time of the writing of the LOTR, > Tokien hadn't really come up with the idea that there was a group of Eldar that > gave up the journey early (these being later named the Nandor) and that made up > the Silvans in combination with the more numerous Avari. In other words, at > the time of LOTR, JRRT's conception appeared to be that the Eldar in Middle > Earth were the Noldor and the Sindar. All other Elves were of "lesser > kindred", there being no Nandor. Ok. Now that makes sense. > I think MM was also trying to correlate this with earlier passages that > appeared to ditinguish the Eldar geographically (i.e. West Elves). I however, > don't think that is how Tolkien intended the term west-elf to mean. I think it > could be taken in the sense of meaning the elves that headed west at the > invitation of the Valar adn opposed to the Avari who remained in the east - for > a while at least. That would be consistent with the later passage in LOTR that > the Noldor and Sindar were the Eldar and the lesser kindreds were not. > > This all gets back to old Prince Imrahil. Under the conceptions I have put > forward, his elvish strain could have come from a non-Eldar "lesser kindred" > under the LOTR era conception or an Avari Silvan elf under the later > Silmarillion conception. I believe your quotes from UT come from the later > conception that included the Nandor. Ok. So my original post on Mithrellas that she was Silvan and thus not counted as Eldar is ok to state under the conception that Tolkien had when writing LOTR's? And later Silvan became a mix. > Actually, I'm a little unclear on MM's position on this. I don't know if he > was disagreeing that Imrahil's could have had elvish blood from an Avari and > that such would be inconsistent with the 3 eldar/edain marrige point; or if he > was just trying to clarify the pool and terminology but basically agrees that > Imrahil having elvish blood was consistent. I wasn't clear either there in MM's post, as to his final conclusions at least. And do you mean Nandor there for Avari in the second sentence? Are you trying to confuse me? ; ) ###### Message-ID: <37C5832D.7449B095@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? References: <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net> <19990826133422.15888.00002152@ngol06.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:10:53 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 935691133 24.128.99.214 (Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:12:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:12:13 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > I think the point MM was making is that at the time of the writing of the LOTR, > Tokien hadn't really come up with the idea that there was a group of Eldar that > gave up the journey early (these being later named the Nandor) and that made up > the Silvans in combination with the more numerous Avari. In other words, at > the time of LOTR, JRRT's conception appeared to be that the Eldar in Middle > Earth were the Noldor and the Sindar. All other Elves were of "lesser > kindred", there being no Nandor. Wait. No Vanyar? I need a drink! Surely the Vanyar too. ###### Message-ID: <37C59288.79EB0270@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? References: <37C5832D.7449B095@mediaone.net> <19990826145410.26208.00002777@ngol01.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:16:24 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 935695064 24.128.99.214 (Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:17:44 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:17:44 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!nntp.abs.net!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > >Wait. No Vanyar? I need a drink! Surely the Vanyar too. > > Well, at the time of the LOTR, all the Vanyar were in Valinor so they were > "Eldar in Middle Earth", which is what I was talking about. Sorry, that was just my (dry) tongue in cheek sans ;) That made me think that it might've been cool though, if JRRT ever considered having a Vanyarin rebel. Glorfindel? Naw, better to leave that one alone with all the recent Glorfindel threads. > Regarding needing a drink, I hear Elrond's cordials pack quite a punch. I'm there -- Noro lim Asfaloth! Cheers, Cian ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 61 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 26 Aug 1999 17:34:22 GMT References: <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990826133422.15888.00002152@ngol06.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net>, Cian writes: >Tolkien writes that Mithrellas was of the lesser 'Silvan' race in UT, but >then, >lesser compared to whom? Earlier, I relied on Robert Foster's 'Silvan' >probably = >Avari, but then I note these quotes below. I'm getting a headache. > >UT -- 'The Silvan Elves were in origin Teleri' (Eldar) > >And, the UT -and Silmarillion- indexs for 'Silvan Elves' - Nandorin Elves who >never >passed west of the Misty Mountains, but remained in the vale of Anduin and in >Greenwood the Great.' (Eldar, using the LOTR's 'People of the Great Journey' >distinction) > >And also from the UT appendices: 'The Silvan Elves and Their Speech' >'The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty >Mountains, >and became small and scattered peoples, hardly to be distinguished from the >Avari; >but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the >Third >Clan, and they >welcomed ...' and so on, about the Noldor and Sindar. (Eldar again) > >Cheers, >Cian > I think the point MM was making is that at the time of the writing of the LOTR, Tokien hadn't really come up with the idea that there was a group of Eldar that gave up the journey early (these being later named the Nandor) and that made up the Silvans in combination with the more numerous Avari. In other words, at the time of LOTR, JRRT's conception appeared to be that the Eldar in Middle Earth were the Noldor and the Sindar. All other Elves were of "lesser kindred", there being no Nandor. I think MM was also trying to correlate this with earlier passages that appeared to ditinguish the Eldar geographically (i.e. West Elves). I however, don't think that is how Tolkien intended the term west-elf to mean. I think it could be taken in the sense of meaning the elves that headed west at the invitation of the Valar adn opposed to the Avari who remained in the east - for a while at least. That would be consistent with the later passage in LOTR that the Noldor and Sindar were the Eldar and the lesser kindreds were not. This all gets back to old Prince Imrahil. Under the conceptions I have put forward, his elvish strain could have come from a non-Eldar "lesser kindred" under the LOTR era conception or an Avari Silvan elf under the later Silmarillion conception. I believe your quotes from UT come from the later conception that included the Nandor. Actually, I'm a little unclear on MM's position on this. I don't know if he was disagreeing that Imrahil's could have had elvish blood from an Avari and that such would be inconsistent with the 3 eldar/edain marrige point; or if he was just trying to clarify the pool and terminology but basically agrees that Imrahil having elvish blood was consistent. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 26 Aug 1999 18:54:10 GMT References: <37C5832D.7449B095@mediaone.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990826145410.26208.00002777@ngol01.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!nntp.abs.net!news.idt.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37C5832D.7449B095@mediaone.net>, Cian writes: >McREsq wrote: > >> I think the point MM was making is that at the time of the writing of the >LOTR, >> Tokien hadn't really come up with the idea that there was a group of Eldar >that >> gave up the journey early (these being later named the Nandor) and that >made up >> the Silvans in combination with the more numerous Avari. In other words, >at >> the time of LOTR, JRRT's conception appeared to be that the Eldar in Middle >> Earth were the Noldor and the Sindar. All other Elves were of "lesser >> kindred", there being no Nandor. > >Wait. No Vanyar? I need a drink! Surely the Vanyar too. > Well, at the time of the LOTR, all the Vanyar were in Valinor so they were "Eldar in Middle Earth", which is what I was talking about. Regarding needing a drink, I hear Elrond's cordials pack quite a punch. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7q4gkm$tg_014@Org.xenite.org> References: <7psmg7$2g4_048@Org.xenite.org> <19990825232739.26115.00002863@ngol01.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 74 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:55:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.73 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 935708173 209.181.119.73 (Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:56:13 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:56:13 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990825232739.26115.00002863@ngol01.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7psmg7$2g4_048@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>But a Nandor marriage with an Adan would not be outside Tolkien's >>statement. One must ask if Mithrellas was regarded of the Avari or the >>Eldar. How is one to determine? By the Third Age, the invitation of the >>Valar was again open to all Elves, Eldar and Avari. > >But that wouldn't change their classification. Just because the ban was lifted >all the Avari didn't suddenly become Eldar. It presumes too much: like they >want to leave Middle Earth. The main question answers itself however: The >elven blood in Imrahil's line came from an Avari Silvan Elf. I was speaking of Mithrellas, not the Avari in general. It is conceivable (though not necessarily plausible) that she was purely of Nandorin descent. >>Where did these Tatyarin groups live? In Eriador and Beleriand, >>apparently, but most likely in Eriador. I'm not sure if any of them >>actually made it to Beleriand, but then, it might be reasonable to argue >>that they would be the most likely to have made it to Beleriand, since the >>Penni settled in the Vales of Anduin. Also, in the conception where Eol is >>a Tatyarin Elf, there is a strong implication that other Avari in Beleriand >>are also Tatyarin. > >OK. But I'm still confused as to how this impacts on whether Tolkiens statment >that there were three unions of eldar and edain impacts on possible edain/Avari >unions. See above. >While the idea was not yet fully developed, Tolkien wrote that there were >non-Eldar in the West of ME (my def is west of longitide of Erebor and north of >latitude of mordor). Yes Tolkien at first appears to make a geographic >distinction (west elves vs. east elves) but in App. F, Of the Elves, states: > >The Exiles, dwelling among the more numerous Grey-elves, had adopted the >Sindarin for daily use; and hence it was the tongue for all those Elves and >Elf-lords that appear in tis history. *For these were all of Eldarin race*, >even where the folk they ruled were of lesser kindreds. > >This passage limits the Eldarin race in ME to the Exiles (Noldor) and the >Sindar. The lesser kindreds are therfore not Eldar. Thus Tolkien tells us >there are non- Eldar living in the "west" of Middle Earth. Taking this out >further, it is one of the non-Eldarin lesser kindreds that provided the Elvish >element in the princes of Dol Amroth. Not necessarily. Although Legolas says that not all of Nimrodels (implied/assumed non-Eldarin) folk left Middle-earth immediately when he meets Imrahil, it is not necessarily clear that all the Elves who left Lorien were non-Eldarin Elves. We know that Lorien was founded by Sindarin Elves who settled among the Silvan Elves. >The Lhammas was written prior to the LOTR and clearly indicates that Tolkien >was considering the more complicated distinctions earlier. The divisions of the Elves in "The Lhammas" are extremely simplistic compared to the post-LOTR divisions. Also, the breakdown in "The Lhammas" is considerably different from that of the post-LOTR conception. In "The Lhammas" the Lindar (Vanyar) all awoke first and together, and they dwelt farthest west. The Noldor were the most numerous Elves, and the Teleri all awoke last and together. And it was a group of Noldor who strayed from the March in this conception as well, not of the Teleri. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <37C5FEF6.47086180@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? References: <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net> <19990826133422.15888.00002152@ngol06.aol.com> <37C58132.7214FB61@mediaone.net> <7q4h20$tg_018@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:59:02 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 935722827 24.128.99.214 (Thu, 26 Aug 1999 23:00:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 23:00:27 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news.globix.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <37C58132.7214FB61@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: > > McREsq wrote: In other words, at the time of LOTR, JRRT's conception > >> appeared to be that the Eldar in Middle Earth were the Noldor and the > >> Sindar. All other Elves were of "lesser kindred", there being no > >> Nandor. > > >Ok. Now that makes sense. > > Not to me it doesn't. I really wish people would stop trying to explain > what I say for me. There were Eldar in Lothlorien and Mirkwood, and they > had been there since early in the Second Age. > > We cannot know by any standard of division what Mithrellas' heritage was. Ok, but a 'no Nandor conception as Eldar' at the time of writing LOTR -would- indeed have made sense with respect to Imrahil having Elvish blood, but not Eldarin blood. It solves the problem of the extra Edain/Eldar marriage -if- Mithrellas as a 'Silvan', was indeed Avari. After checking your post I see that -you didn't write that- in any case; next time, I'll check your post before I agree with what anyone 'says you said', but neither McREsq nor myself was trying to misrepresent you I'm sure. Umm, maybe I shouldn't even speak for McREsq considering this topic. ok, I'll bet he meant no harm. :) Cheers, Cian ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7q4gsn$tg_016@Org.xenite.org> References: <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net> <19990826133422.15888.00002152@ngol06.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:59:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.73 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 935708430 209.181.119.73 (Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:00:30 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:00:30 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990826133422.15888.00002152@ngol06.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: > >I think the point MM was making is that at the time of the writing of the LOTR, >Tokien hadn't really come up with the idea that there was a group of Eldar that >gave up the journey early (these being later named the Nandor) and that made up >the Silvans in combination with the more numerous Avari. In other words, at >the time of LOTR, JRRT's conception appeared to be that the Eldar in Middle >Earth were the Noldor and the Sindar. All other Elves were of "lesser >kindred", there being no Nandor. No, that was not the point at all. At the time of the writing of THE LORD OF THE RINGS, as the Appendix clearly indicates, the Elves of Middle-earth were divided into the West-elves (Eldar) and the East-elves (Wood-elves or Silvan Elves). There was no mention of the Nandor or the various divisions of the Avari, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Tolkien didn't envision other sub-divisions which were lost in the ages. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7q4h20$tg_018@Org.xenite.org> References: <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net> <19990826133422.15888.00002152@ngol06.aol.com> <37C58132.7214FB61@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 26 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 23:02:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.73 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 935708598 209.181.119.73 (Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:03:18 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:03:18 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37C58132.7214FB61@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: >McREsq wrote: > >> I think the point MM was making is that at the time of the writing of the >> LOTR, Tokien hadn't really come up with the idea that there was a group >> of Eldar that gave up the journey early (these being later named the >> Nandor) and that made up the Silvans in combination with the more >> numerous Avari. In other words, at the time of LOTR, JRRT's conception >> appeared to be that the Eldar in Middle Earth were the Noldor and the >> Sindar. All other Elves were of "lesser kindred", there being no >> Nandor. > >Ok. Now that makes sense. Not to me it doesn't. I really wish people would stop trying to explain what I say for me. There were Eldar in Lothlorien and Mirkwood, and they had been there since early in the Second Age. We cannot know by any standard of division what Mithrellas' heritage was. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 27 Aug 1999 02:01:21 GMT References: <7q4h20$tg_018@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990826220121.16931.00002855@ngol02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nntp.psi.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7q4h20$tg_018@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>> I think the point MM was making is that at the time of the writing of the >>> LOTR, Tokien hadn't really come up with the idea that there was a group >>> of Eldar that gave up the journey early (these being later named the >>> Nandor) and that made up the Silvans in combination with the more >>> numerous Avari. In other words, at the time of LOTR, JRRT's conception >>> appeared to be that the Eldar in Middle Earth were the Noldor and the >>> Sindar. All other Elves were of "lesser kindred", there being no >>> Nandor. >> >>Ok. Now that makes sense. > >Not to me it doesn't. I really wish people would stop trying to explain >what I say for me. No offense was intended. We were discussing your ideas and didn't quite understand them so we were trying to hash them out. You should take that as a compliment. If people thought my ideas were worthy enough to discuss seriously, I would be complimented, even if they got it wrong. Assume the best, not the worst, my friend. >There were Eldar in Lothlorien and Mirkwood, and they >had been there since early in the Second Age. > >We cannot know by any standard of division what Mithrellas' heritage was. I see where your coming from. I was attacking it from the other direction. If we accept two assumption: 1) there were only three eldar-edain marriages and 2) Dol Amrth has elvish blood; then that blood must have come from an Avari source. So if the source of that blood was Mithrellas, she must have been Avari (and almost assuredly, Silvan). Russ ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:59:38 -0400 Lines: 29 Message-ID: <37C6C3EF.8B5E5303@erols.com> References: <37C5832D.7449B095@mediaone.net> <19990826145410.26208.00002777@ngol01.aol.com> <37C59288.79EB0270@mediaone.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: lX6UsPypYM+piHeyw8CryMA20e5tAGeeITmVkMUuUu8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Aug 1999 05:04:27 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Cian wrote: > McREsq wrote: > > > >Wait. No Vanyar? I need a drink! Surely the Vanyar too. > > > > Well, at the time of the LOTR, all the Vanyar were in Valinor so they were > > "Eldar in Middle Earth", which is what I was talking about. > > Sorry, that was just my (dry) tongue in cheek sans ;) > That made me think that it might've been cool though, if JRRT ever considered > having a Vanyarin rebel. Glorfindel? Naw, better to leave that one alone with all > the recent Glorfindel threads. Idril's mother died on the way too Middle-Earth. Idril had the golden hair of her mother's kinred. > Cheers, > Cian Lúthien Tinúviel It's the end of the world as we know it, I feel fine! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7q6p6s$28s_040@Org.xenite.org> References: <7q4h20$tg_018@Org.xenite.org> <19990826220121.16931.00002855@ngol02.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 52 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:33:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.83 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 935782482 207.224.147.83 (Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:34:42 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:34:42 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990826220121.16931.00002855@ngol02.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7q4h20$tg_018@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>> I think the point MM was making is that at the time of the writing of the >>>> LOTR, Tokien hadn't really come up with the idea that there was a group >>>> of Eldar that gave up the journey early (these being later named the >>>> Nandor) and that made up the Silvans in combination with the more >>>> numerous Avari. In other words, at the time of LOTR, JRRT's conception >>>> appeared to be that the Eldar in Middle Earth were the Noldor and the >>>> Sindar. All other Elves were of "lesser kindred", there being no >>>> Nandor. >>> >>>Ok. Now that makes sense. >> >>Not to me it doesn't. I really wish people would stop trying to explain >>what I say for me. > >No offense was intended. We were discussing your ideas and didn't quite >understand them so we were trying to hash them out. You should take that as a >compliment. If people thought my ideas were worthy enough to discuss >seriously, I would be complimented, even if they got it wrong. Well, I would have responded sooner if UsenetServer hadn't been so uncooperative. I did actually WAIT a few hours before posting some of the articles a third time. >>There were Eldar in Lothlorien and Mirkwood, and they >>had been there since early in the Second Age. >> >>We cannot know by any standard of division what Mithrellas' heritage was. > >I see where your coming from. I was attacking it from the other direction. If >we accept two assumption: 1) there were only three eldar-edain marriages and 2) >Dol Amrth has elvish blood; then that blood must have come from an Avari >source. So if the source of that blood was Mithrellas, she must have been >Avari (and almost assuredly, Silvan). Maybe. And maybe at the time Tolkien wrote one of those statements he had something else in mind. What was Dior, for instance? Elda, Adan? Tolkien says he was the first of the Peredhil -- apparently a different group altogether. If that is the case, then Elros re-entered the Edain as a new member of the community. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7q6pda$28s_042@Org.xenite.org> References: <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net> <19990826133422.15888.00002152@ngol06.aol.com> <37C58132.7214FB61@mediaone.net> <7q4h20$tg_018@Org.xenite.org> <37C5FEF6.47086180@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 38 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:37:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.83 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 935782688 207.224.147.83 (Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:38:08 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:38:08 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37C5FEF6.47086180@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> In article <37C58132.7214FB61@mediaone.net>, Cian >> wrote: >> > McREsq wrote: In other words, at the time of LOTR, JRRT's conception >> >> appeared to be that the Eldar in Middle Earth were the Noldor and the >> >> Sindar. All other Elves were of "lesser kindred", there being no >> >> Nandor. >> >> >Ok. Now that makes sense. >> >> Not to me it doesn't. I really wish people would stop trying to explain >> what I say for me. There were Eldar in Lothlorien and Mirkwood, and they >> had been there since early in the Second Age. >> >> We cannot know by any standard of division what Mithrellas' heritage was. > >Ok, but a 'no Nandor conception as Eldar' at the time of writing LOTR -would- >indeed have made sense with respect to Imrahil having Elvish blood, but not >Eldarin blood. It solves the problem of the extra Edain/Eldar marriage >-if- Mithrellas as a 'Silvan', was indeed Avari. I think Tolkien was envisioning communities more than lineages. I doubt I could explain it fully, and I certainly could not support the idea with any citations. It just strikes me that his simplistic division of Elves into West-elves and East-elves referred to a division of lineage that was not represented by the actual communities. And then somewhere along the way he went BACK to discussing lineages (after LOTR was published). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 27 Aug 1999 22:32:58 GMT References: <7q4gkm$tg_014@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990827183258.16940.00003426@ngol02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7q4gkm$tg_014@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>The Lhammas was written prior to the LOTR and clearly indicates that Tolkien >>was considering the more complicated distinctions earlier. > >The divisions of the Elves in "The Lhammas" are extremely simplistic >compared to the post-LOTR divisions. > >Also, the breakdown in "The Lhammas" is considerably different from that of >the post-LOTR conception. In "The Lhammas" the Lindar (Vanyar) all awoke >first and together, and they dwelt farthest west. The Noldor were the most >numerous Elves, and the Teleri all awoke last and together. And it was a >group of Noldor who strayed from the March in this conception as well, not >of the Teleri. > All I was saying is that prior to the LOTR, Tolkien conceived of a group of Eldar that broke off early and never really went too far west. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 27 Aug 1999 22:32:58 GMT References: <7q4gsn$tg_016@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990827183258.16940.00003427@ngol02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7q4gsn$tg_016@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >At the time of the writing of THE LORD OF THE RINGS, as the Appendix >clearly indicates, the Elves of Middle-earth were divided into the >West-elves (Eldar) and the East-elves (Wood-elves or Silvan Elves). There >was no mention of the Nandor or the various divisions of the Avari, but >that doesn't necessarily mean that Tolkien didn't envision other >sub-divisions which were lost in the ages. > But what's the definition of West and East Elves? If meant in the sense of those who at Cuivienen decided to go west or to remain east, respectively, then they are essentially interchangeable with later terms Eldar and Avari. If one the other hand they arise out of later migratory patterns than we run into inconsistencies that are difficult to deal with. I think in fact, in Quenya and the Eldar, Tolkien specifically "translates" west elves and east elves in the former sense. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7q7ctv$3sk_022@Org.xenite.org> References: <7q4gsn$tg_016@Org.xenite.org> <19990827183258.16940.00003427@ngol02.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 75 Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 01:10:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.119 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 935802679 207.224.147.119 (Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:11:19 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:11:19 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990827183258.16940.00003427@ngol02.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7q4gsn$tg_016@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>At the time of the writing of THE LORD OF THE RINGS, as the Appendix >>clearly indicates, the Elves of Middle-earth were divided into the >>West-elves (Eldar) and the East-elves (Wood-elves or Silvan Elves). There >>was no mention of the Nandor or the various divisions of the Avari, but >>that doesn't necessarily mean that Tolkien didn't envision other >>sub-divisions which were lost in the ages. >> > >But what's the definition of West and East Elves? If meant in the sense of >those who at Cuivienen decided to go west or to remain east, respectively, >then they are essentially interchangeable with later terms Eldar and Avari. If >one the other hand they arise out of later migratory patterns than we run into >inconsistencies that are difficult to deal with. I think in fact, in Quenya >and the Eldar, Tolkien specifically "translates" west elves and east elves in >the former sense. Are we disagreeing over something here? Maybe it's time to cite the book and start over. I know this had to do with Mithellas and Tolkien's statement that there were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain (Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, Aragorn and Arwen). The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the ELDAR) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lorien, but their languages do not appear in this history, in which all the Elvish names and words are of ELDARIN form. (From Appendix F, 'The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age', "Of the Elves") In Appendix B, "The Tale of Years", the second paragraph introducing the Second Age says: In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dur many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great, was one of these. In Lindon north of the Lune dwelt Gil-galad, last heir of the kings of the Noldor in exile. He was acknowledged as High King of the Elves of the West. In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women. She was sister of Finrod Felagund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond, who gave his life to save Beren son of Barahir. Of course, this is not the original wording. In fact, Celeborn was originally the king of Lorien. Anyway, somewhere in all that, I was trying to make the point that Mithrellas' lineage is not identifiable. She was a handmaiden of Nimrodel, who apparently was a lady of the Silvan Elves -- but we base this knowledge on information which wasn't published in THE LORD OF THE RINGS, though it is contemporary with it. Tolkien implies by his statement about unions of Eldar and Edain that Mithrellas was not of the Eldar -- yet that statement originally was "there were only three unions of the High Elves and Men" (which contradicts the published statement that the High Elves were the Noldor and the Grey Elves were the Sindar). I don't think he sat down and put all the pieces together, although we can easily infer that Mithrellas was not of Eldarin descent despite the possibilities inherent in the historical perspective which has indeed been published. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7q7d0j$3sk_024@Org.xenite.org> References: <7q4gkm$tg_014@Org.xenite.org> <19990827183258.16940.00003426@ngol02.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 30 Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 01:11:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.119 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 935802758 207.224.147.119 (Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:12:38 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:12:38 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990827183258.16940.00003426@ngol02.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7q4gkm$tg_014@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>The Lhammas was written prior to the LOTR and clearly indicates that Tolkien >>>was considering the more complicated distinctions earlier. >> >>The divisions of the Elves in "The Lhammas" are extremely simplistic >>compared to the post-LOTR divisions. >> >>Also, the breakdown in "The Lhammas" is considerably different from that of >>the post-LOTR conception. In "The Lhammas" the Lindar (Vanyar) all awoke >>first and together, and they dwelt farthest west. The Noldor were the most >>numerous Elves, and the Teleri all awoke last and together. And it was a >>group of Noldor who strayed from the March in this conception as well, not >>of the Teleri. >> > >All I was saying is that prior to the LOTR, Tolkien conceived of a group of >Eldar that broke off early and never really went too far west. But then you're referring to the Danas (who came from the Noldor) and they ended up in Beleriand as the Green-elves. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 57 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 28 Aug 1999 04:02:53 GMT References: <7q7ctv$3sk_022@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990828000253.05615.00003243@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7q7ctv$3sk_022@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >Are we disagreeing over something here? Maybe it's time to cite the book >and start over. I know this had to do with Mithellas and Tolkien's >statement that there were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain (Beren >and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, Aragorn and Arwen). > > The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main > branches: the West-elves (the ELDAR) and the East-elves. Of the > latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lorien, but > their languages do not appear in this history, in which all the Elvish > names and words are of ELDARIN form. > (From Appendix F, 'The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age', "Of > the Elves") > >In Appendix B, "The Tale of Years", the second paragraph introducing the >Second Age says: > > In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. > Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the > building of the Barad-dur many of the Sindar passed eastward, and > some established realms in the forests far away, where their people > were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood > the Great, was one of these. In Lindon north of the Lune dwelt > Gil-galad, last heir of the kings of the Noldor in exile. He was > acknowledged as High King of the Elves of the West. In Lindon south > of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife > was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women. She was sister of Finrod > Felagund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond, who gave his > life to save Beren son of Barahir. > >Of course, this is not the original wording. In fact, Celeborn was >originally the king of Lorien. > >Anyway, somewhere in all that, I was trying to make the point that >Mithrellas' lineage is not identifiable. She was a handmaiden of Nimrodel, >who apparently was a lady of the Silvan Elves -- but we base this knowledge >on information which wasn't published in THE LORD OF THE RINGS, though it >is contemporary with it. Tolkien implies by his statement about unions of >Eldar and Edain that Mithrellas was not of the Eldar -- yet that statement >originally was "there were only three unions of the High Elves and Men" >(which contradicts the published statement that the High Elves were the >Noldor and the Grey Elves were the Sindar). > >I don't think he sat down and put all the pieces together, although we can >easily infer that Mithrellas was not of Eldarin descent despite the >possibilities inherent in the historical perspective which has indeed been >published. > Actually, I didn't think we were disagreeing. For quite some time, I didn't understand that you were saying . Ultimately, I guess I was making sure my understanding was correct. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 28 Aug 1999 04:02:54 GMT References: <7q7d0j$3sk_024@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990828000254.05615.00003244@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.cs.utwente.nl!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7q7d0j$3sk_024@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>All I was saying is that prior to the LOTR, Tolkien conceived of a group of >>Eldar that broke off early and never really went too far west. > >But then you're referring to the Danas (who came from the Noldor) and they >ended up in Beleriand as the Green-elves. I'm not saying Tolkien had it in final form. Less important aspects were often shifted around by Tolkien - witness the changing names of Finwe's descendants. All I was saying is that he had already set down on paper the idea that a group of Eldar broke off early. Ultimately, after various manifestations, they became the Nandor we all know and love. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 28 Aug 1999 17:50:34 GMT References: <7psmg7$2g4_048@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990828135034.14753.00002587@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7psmg7$2g4_048@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >Well, the Avari outnumbered the Sindar and Nandor together, so the Nandor >who remained in the Vales of Anduin must have been very few compared to all >Nelyarin Avari. The question arises of whether the Penni were in fact all >the Avarin Nelyar or if there were one or more other groups. > >If we assume (we can really do nothing else but make hypothetical guesses >at this point) that the Penni were all the Avarin Nelyar, then it is clear >that the Silvan Elves were mostly of Avarin descent. If we assume, >however, that one or more other groups existed, then we run into problems. >In what proportions would Tolkien have made those divisions? > >Half the Tatyar became Noldor, and half became Avari: 28 & 28. If Jeff is >correct in his analysis of the language changes, then there were five >groups of Avarin Tatyar: Kindi, Cuind, Hwenti, Windan, and Kinn-lai. > >BUT...Tolkien complicates matters by saying that there were already some >Nelyarin Avari among the Nandor whom Denethor led to Ossiriand. Were these >descended of the Penni, or another group? If another group, then were they >a Nelyarin group or were they a Tatyarin group? > Where do these clan names, penni, kindi, etc appear? I have some reading to do Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qadns$2lk_050@Org.xenite.org> References: <7psmg7$2g4_048@Org.xenite.org> <19990828135034.14753.00002587@ngol05.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 04:42:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.240 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 935901806 209.181.118.240 (Sat, 28 Aug 1999 23:43:26 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 23:43:26 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!novia!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990828135034.14753.00002587@ngol05.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: > >Where do these clan names, penni, kindi, etc appear? "Quendi and Eldar" in THE WAR OF THE JEWELS. I think they are given in Author's Note 9, or somewhere thereabouts. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Aug 1999 16:34:36 GMT References: <7q6p6s$28s_040@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990830123436.16927.00004300@ngol02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nntp.psi.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7q6p6s$28s_040@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >Maybe. And maybe at the time Tolkien wrote one of those statements he had >something else in mind. > >What was Dior, for instance? Elda, Adan? Tolkien says he was the first of >the Peredhil -- apparently a different group altogether. If that is the >case, then Elros re-entered the Edain as a new member of the community. It appears Tolkien never really completed that section of the story, the last years of Doriath. It must have occurred to him that Dior had to be dealt with. On the one hand, Elf-Adan children appear to be ruled by the lowest common denomiator. Mandos, at least, assumed that Earendel was mortal, not immortal. Tolkien appears to to have considered Dior Peredhil but his marriage to what's her name, was not listed as Eldar-Edain. I forgot, but I assume Dior's wife was a Sindar. The answer might be that he died before this became an issue and that the Valar and Eru would have had to deal with it at some point. Although maybe not, Dior would already have come before Mandos by the time Earendel arrived. If Mandos had authority alone, it appears he would have considered him Adan and sent him on his way. There may be a hidden precedent in Mandos' initial opinion of Earendil. If he thought Earendel was Adan, presumably he tought Dior was too when he came a-knockin at his door. However, Dior's death did not force a Valian council like the arrival of Earendil did - and Mandos' decision was allowed to stand. I guess the genie couldn't be put back in the bottle. If Dior's fea was already sent beyond Ea then I he would never have gotten the choice that the other Peredhil got. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qemh3$1t8_018@Org.xenite.org> References: <7q6p6s$28s_040@Org.xenite.org> <19990830123436.16927.00004300@ngol02.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:37:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.104 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 936041884 209.181.119.104 (Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:38:04 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:38:04 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990830123436.16927.00004300@ngol02.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >The answer might be that he died before this became an issue and that the Valar >and Eru would have had to deal with it at some point. Although maybe not, >Dior would already have come before Mandos by the time Earendel arrived. If >Mandos had authority alone, it appears he would have considered him Adan and >sent him on his way. There may be a hidden precedent in Mandos' initial >opinion of Earendil. If he thought Earendel was Adan, presumably he tought >Dior was too when he came a-knockin at his door. However, Dior's death did not >force a Valian council like the arrival of Earendil did - and Mandos' decision >was allowed to stand. This much has been established. All the children of Elf-Man marriages were born mortal. Earendil, Elwing, and their sons were given a special gift in being able to choose kindreds. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Aug 1999 20:40:47 GMT References: <7qemh3$1t8_018@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990830164047.13940.00003702@ngol04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7qemh3$1t8_018@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >This much has been established. All the children of Elf-Man marriages were >born mortal. Earendil, Elwing, and their sons were given a special gift in >being able to choose kindreds. Now, we're back to Tolkien's original statement. Dior and Nimloth was an Eldar-Edain marriage then. Do we just chalk up the number 3 to a translation error? . Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org> References: <7qemh3$1t8_018@Org.xenite.org> <19990830164047.13940.00003702@ngol04.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:56:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.145 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 936046633 207.224.147.145 (Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:57:13 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:57:13 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990830164047.13940.00003702@ngol04.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7qemh3$1t8_018@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>This much has been established. All the children of Elf-Man marriages were >>born mortal. Earendil, Elwing, and their sons were given a special gift in >>being able to choose kindreds. > >Now, we're back to Tolkien's original statement. Dior and Nimloth was an >Eldar-Edain marriage then. Do we just chalk up the number 3 to a translation >error? . All Edain were Men, but were all Men Edain? What made an Adan an Adan? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Aug 1999 21:10:53 GMT References: <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990830171053.13940.00003707@ngol04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>Now, we're back to Tolkien's original statement. Dior and Nimloth was an >>Eldar-Edain marriage then. Do we just chalk up the number 3 to a >translation >>error? . > >All Edain were Men, but were all Men Edain? What made an Adan an Adan? > Well Dior's Adanness was Edain. (Say that 10 times fast). His Adan half was from Beren and Edain so it stands to reason that if he were deemed an Adan, he would be of the Edain type. Russ ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:13:58 -0400 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <37CB3A48.C27BBC48@erols.com> References: <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org> <19990830171053.13940.00003707@ngol04.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: zEO5ANONNmEV4FfOmDC58rOI5wZo8gTo1LdmRFnfkzg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 1999 05:21:51 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > In article <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > Martinez) writes: > >All Edain were Men, but were all Men Edain? What made an Adan an Adan? > > > Well Dior's Adanness was Edain. (Say that 10 times fast). His Adan half was > from Beren and Edain so it stands to reason that if he were deemed an Adan, he > would be of the Edain type. Adan is the singular for Edain, just as Dun-adan(also one of Aragorn's names) is the singular for Dun-edain. > Russ Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna It's the end of the world as we know it, I feel fine! ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:18:24 -0400 Lines: 42 Message-ID: <37CB3B53.FD0209BF@erols.com> References: <7q6p6s$28s_040@Org.xenite.org> <19990830123436.16927.00004300@ngol02.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: zEO5ANONNmFuyMAoGnYvJrEBybcJxR6fXMy97Ye7y2E= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 1999 05:21:53 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > In article <7q6p6s$28s_040@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > Martinez) writes: > >What was Dior, for instance? Elda, Adan? Tolkien says he was the first of > >the Peredhil -- apparently a different group altogether. If that is the > >case, then Elros re-entered the Edain as a new member of the community. > > It appears Tolkien never really completed that section of the story, the last > years of Doriath. It must have occurred to him that Dior had to be dealt with. > On the one hand, Elf-Adan children appear to be ruled by the lowest common > denomiator. Mandos, at least, assumed that Earendel was mortal, not immortal. > Tolkien appears to to have considered Dior Peredhil but his marriage to what's > her name, was not listed as Eldar-Edain. I forgot, but I assume Dior's wife > was a Sindar. > > The answer might be that he died before this became an issue and that the Valar > and Eru would have had to deal with it at some point. Although maybe not, > Dior would already have come before Mandos by the time Earendel arrived. If > Mandos had authority alone, it appears he would have considered him Adan and > sent him on his way. There may be a hidden precedent in Mandos' initial > opinion of Earendil. If he thought Earendel was Adan, presumably he tought > Dior was too when he came a-knockin at his door. However, Dior's death did not > force a Valian council like the arrival of Earendil did - and Mandos' decision > was allowed to stand. > > I guess the genie couldn't be put back in the bottle. If Dior's fea was already > sent beyond Ea then I he would never have gotten the choice that the other > Peredhil got. What about Elwing's brothers? > Russ Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna It's the end of the world as we know it, I feel fine! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qfpja$1rs_034@Org.xenite.org> References: <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org> <19990830171053.13940.00003707@ngol04.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 28 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 05:35:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.147 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 936077790 207.224.147.147 (Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:36:30 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:36:30 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990830171053.13940.00003707@ngol04.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >In article <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>Now, we're back to Tolkien's original statement. Dior and Nimloth was an >>>Eldar-Edain marriage then. Do we just chalk up the number 3 to a >>translation >>>error? . >> >>All Edain were Men, but were all Men Edain? What made an Adan an Adan? >> > >Well Dior's Adanness was Edain. (Say that 10 times fast). His Adan half was >from Beren and Edain so it stands to reason that if he were deemed an Adan, he >would be of the Edain type. But Dior did not grow up among the Edain. He grew up with his parents, one of whom was an Adan and one who had been an Elf for the equivalent of thousands of years (did Luthien lose her subcreative faculties when she chose to become mortal?). He was not living in a community of Edain, and his nearest neighbors were Elves (apparently). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 12:46:30 -0400 Lines: 29 Message-ID: <37CC06D4.D0463563@erols.com> References: <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org> <19990830171053.13940.00003707@ngol04.aol.com> <7qfpja$1rs_034@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: SaGcmco2IXYDtKcjb0MMllusRyfnnB6ckYIPbMaRwns= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 1999 22:17:23 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!oleane!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <19990830171053.13940.00003707@ngol04.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: > >In article <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > >Martinez) writes: > >Well Dior's Adanness was Edain. (Say that 10 times fast). His Adan half was > >from Beren and Edain so it stands to reason that if he were deemed an Adan, he > >would be of the Edain type. > > But Dior did not grow up among the Edain. He grew up with his parents, one > of whom was an Adan and one who had been an Elf for the equivalent of > thousands of years (did Luthien lose her subcreative faculties when she > chose to become mortal?). He was not living in a community of Edain, and > his nearest neighbors were Elves (apparently). Green Elves. Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna "Nobody gets through 'War and Peace'!" Max, Get Smart Again ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 Aug 1999 14:50:19 GMT References: <37CB3A48.C27BBC48@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990831105019.01796.00003266@ngol08.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37CB3A48.C27BBC48@erols.com>, Solinas writes: >McREsq wrote: > >> In article <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >> Martinez) writes: >> >All Edain were Men, but were all Men Edain? What made an Adan an Adan? >> >> >> Well Dior's Adanness was Edain. (Say that 10 times fast). His Adan half >was >> from Beren and Edain so it stands to reason that if he were deemed an Adan, >he >> would be of the Edain type. > > Adan is the singular for Edain, just as Dun-adan(also one of Aragorn's > names) is the singular for Dun-edain. > Linguistically you are correct, but as a matter of practice, the word Edain came to refer only to the three houses of Elf-friends. I may be wrong, but I think the generalized word for Men was Atani. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 Aug 1999 14:50:22 GMT References: <37CB3B53.FD0209BF@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990831105022.01796.00003267@ngol08.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37CB3B53.FD0209BF@erols.com>, Solinas writes: >> I guess the genie couldn't be put back in the bottle. If Dior's fea was >already >> sent beyond Ea then I he would never have gotten the choice that the other >> Peredhil got. > > What about Elwing's brothers? > >> Russ > You're right, them too. I assume they were standing next to Dior in the line in Mandos' waiting room. Elwing wasn't given her choice until years later when she made the trip to Aman with Earendil. I don't know how long Men's spirits stay with Mandos before they leave the bounds of Ea. But the brothers may not have been given the same option as Elwing in any event. At least part of the reason she and her offspring were given the choice was because of her sacrifice and risk in taking the plea of the Elves and Edain to the Valar and her love of Earendil. Russ Russ Russ ###### From: "DM" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:07:59 -0700 References: <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net> <19990826133422.15888.00002152@ngol06.aol.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-ELN-Date: 1 Sep 1999 04:56:09 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Tue Aug 31 22:05:05 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Lines: 110 NNTP-Posting-Host: ip217.portland8.or.pub-ip.psi.net Message-ID: <7qibl9$6nl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!netnews.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Wow, I'm amazed at the many and varied approaches to this one concept. Very good. I feel a bit simple with what I always thought. I'll admit that I didn't give the passage much thought till now. I figured Prince Imrahil was descended from Elros (like Elendil, and later Aragorn). The history of ME tells Elros' descendants visited and (I assume) mingled with the coast population like around Minas Tirith and other places for some time before their island sunk. I figured Imrahil was descended from Elros, but from one of the children along the way that didn't become a king or queen. And as the years went by the childrens, children of those childen for 5000 years would always have a little less elven blood then their parent. This also made it nice, because it made Prince Imrahil and Aragorn related (no matter that they were cousins very far removed. blood is thicker than water, and I feel you can always count on blood. That is also why I believe Imrahil and Aragorn became friends so fast. Faramir was I believe Imrahils nephew, and so you would have expected him to have supported Faramir (even if Aragorn did bring him back from near death), except for the kinship with Aragorn. There are probably lots of holes with my very simple (I think) expanation, but I thought it worked nicely with the story, especially the part of how Imrahil takes to Aragorn so quickly. McREsq wrote in message news:19990826133422.15888.00002152@ngol06.aol.com... > In article <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net>, Cian > writes: > > >Tolkien writes that Mithrellas was of the lesser 'Silvan' race in UT, but > >then, > >lesser compared to whom? Earlier, I relied on Robert Foster's 'Silvan' > >probably = > >Avari, but then I note these quotes below. I'm getting a headache. > > > >UT -- 'The Silvan Elves were in origin Teleri' (Eldar) > > > >And, the UT -and Silmarillion- indexs for 'Silvan Elves' - Nandorin Elves who > >never > >passed west of the Misty Mountains, but remained in the vale of Anduin and in > >Greenwood the Great.' (Eldar, using the LOTR's 'People of the Great Journey' > >distinction) > > > >And also from the UT appendices: 'The Silvan Elves and Their Speech' > >'The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty > >Mountains, > >and became small and scattered peoples, hardly to be distinguished from the > >Avari; > >but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the > >Third > >Clan, and they > >welcomed ...' and so on, about the Noldor and Sindar. (Eldar again) > > > >Cheers, > >Cian > > > > I think the point MM was making is that at the time of the writing of the LOTR, > Tokien hadn't really come up with the idea that there was a group of Eldar that > gave up the journey early (these being later named the Nandor) and that made up > the Silvans in combination with the more numerous Avari. In other words, at > the time of LOTR, JRRT's conception appeared to be that the Eldar in Middle > Earth were the Noldor and the Sindar. All other Elves were of "lesser > kindred", there being no Nandor. > > I think MM was also trying to correlate this with earlier passages that > appeared to ditinguish the Eldar geographically (i.e. West Elves). I however, > don't think that is how Tolkien intended the term west-elf to mean. I think it > could be taken in the sense of meaning the elves that headed west at the > invitation of the Valar adn opposed to the Avari who remained in the east - for > a while at least. That would be consistent with the later passage in LOTR that > the Noldor and Sindar were the Eldar and the lesser kindreds were not. > > This all gets back to old Prince Imrahil. Under the conceptions I have put > forward, his elvish strain could have come from a non-Eldar "lesser kindred" > under the LOTR era conception or an Avari Silvan elf under the later > Silmarillion conception. I believe your quotes from UT come from the later > conception that included the Nandor. > > > Actually, I'm a little unclear on MM's position on this. I don't know if he > was disagreeing that Imrahil's could have had elvish blood from an Avari and > that such would be inconsistent with the 3 eldar/edain marrige point; or if he > was just trying to clarify the pool and terminology but basically agrees that > Imrahil having elvish blood was consistent. > > Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qi9me$23s_026@Org.xenite.org> References: <37CB3A48.C27BBC48@erols.com> <19990831105019.01796.00003266@ngol08.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 14 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 04:22:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.126 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 936159819 207.224.147.126 (Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:23:39 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:23:39 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!novia!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990831105019.01796.00003266@ngol08.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >I may be wrong, but I think the generalized word for Men was Atani. Which was Quenya for Edain. Men came to be known by other names, and not all the Edain went over sea. Technically, the Rohirrim were Edain. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qi9oj$23s_028@Org.xenite.org> References: <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org> <19990830171053.13940.00003707@ngol04.aol.com> <7qfpja$1rs_034@Org.xenite.org> <37CC06D4.D0463563@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 04:23:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.126 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 936159888 207.224.147.126 (Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:24:48 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:24:48 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37CC06D4.D0463563@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> But Dior did not grow up among the Edain. He grew up with his parents, one >> of whom was an Adan and one who had been an Elf for the equivalent of >> thousands of years (did Luthien lose her subcreative faculties when she >> chose to become mortal?). He was not living in a community of Edain, and >> his nearest neighbors were Elves (apparently). > > Green Elves. Unless you're implying the Green Elves were like the Edain, or else went well with Ham, I'm not sure what you're point is. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7qidea$23s_054@Org.xenite.org> References: <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net> <19990826133422.15888.00002152@ngol06.aol.com> <7qibl9$6nl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 35 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 05:26:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.126 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 936163654 207.224.147.126 (Wed, 01 Sep 1999 00:27:34 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 00:27:34 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7qibl9$6nl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "DM" wrote: >I feel a bit simple with what I always thought. I'll admit that I didn't >give the passage much thought till now. I figured Prince Imrahil was >descended from Elros (like Elendil, and later Aragorn). The history of ME >tells Elros' descendants visited and (I assume) mingled with the coast >population like around Minas Tirith and other places for some time before >their island sunk. I figured Imrahil was descended from Elros, but from one >of the children along the way that didn't become a king or queen. And as >the years went by the childrens, children of those childen for 5000 years >would always have a little less elven blood then their parent. This also >made it nice, because it made Prince Imrahil and Aragorn related (no matter >that they were cousins very far removed. blood is thicker than water, and I >feel you can always count on blood. You're not that far off the track, actually. In "Cirion and Eorl" (in UNFINISHED TALES) there is a note which says that the Princes of Dol Amroth were given the title (prince) by Elendil because they were relatives of his. >That is also why I believe Imrahil and Aragorn became friends so fast. >Faramir was I believe Imrahils nephew, and so you would have expected him to >have supported Faramir (even if Aragorn did bring him back from near death), >except for the kinship with Aragorn. Imrahil may have been a lot like Aragorn. But I think he was also grateful for the fact that someone like Aragorn showed up to save Gondor from the Cosairs and Haradrim. Belfalas was not the scene of action, but it was certainly threatened by the enemy. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 14:07:02 -0400 Lines: 41 Message-ID: <37CD6B3A.C1EDA0E7@erols.com> References: <37CB3A48.C27BBC48@erols.com> <19990831105019.01796.00003266@ngol08.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: o3BK6AQEezjG1H0PlEawhgESaWvaMfFU0S9wx3nB0i0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Sep 1999 18:50:15 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > In article <37CB3A48.C27BBC48@erols.com>, Solinas writes: > > >McREsq wrote: > > > >> In article <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > >> Martinez) writes: > >> >All Edain were Men, but were all Men Edain? What made an Adan an Adan? > >> > >> > >> Well Dior's Adanness was Edain. (Say that 10 times fast). His Adan half > >was > >> from Beren and Edain so it stands to reason that if he were deemed an Adan, > >he > >> would be of the Edain type. > > > > Adan is the singular for Edain, just as Dun-adan(also one of Aragorn's > > names) is the singular for Dun-edain. > > > > Linguistically you are correct, but as a matter of practice, the word Edain > came to refer only to the three houses of Elf-friends. I know. > I may be wrong, but I think the generalized word for Men was Atani. I think so, too. > Russ Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna "Nobody gets through 'War and Peace'!" Max, Get Smart Again ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 14:21:01 -0400 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <37CD6E80.9E9C8050@erols.com> References: <37CB3A48.C27BBC48@erols.com> <19990831105019.01796.00003266@ngol08.aol.com> <7qi9me$23s_026@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: o3BK6AQEezhpOoH1M0xA0q6T1ML8u3yMoY4oZ+WbTGE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Sep 1999 18:50:34 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <19990831105019.01796.00003266@ngol08.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: > >I may be wrong, but I think the generalized word for Men was Atani. > > Which was Quenya for Edain. Men came to be known by other names, and not > all the Edain went over sea. > > Technically, the Rohirrim were Edain. They were, in a manner of speaking. Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna See, I know where I am, and I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way! ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 14:24:58 -0400 Lines: 26 Message-ID: <37CD6F6E.6C185AFF@erols.com> References: <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org> <19990830171053.13940.00003707@ngol04.aol.com> <7qfpja$1rs_034@Org.xenite.org> <37CC06D4.D0463563@erols.com> <7qi9oj$23s_028@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: o3BK6AQEezgL1PWgUIORKk6gMDLLQiVhphGc+3mTJxA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Sep 1999 18:50:56 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <37CC06D4.D0463563@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> But Dior did not grow up among the Edain. He grew up with his parents, one > >> of whom was an Adan and one who had been an Elf for the equivalent of > >> thousands of years (did Luthien lose her subcreative faculties when she > >> chose to become mortal?). He was not living in a community of Edain, and > >> his nearest neighbors were Elves (apparently). > > > > Green Elves. > > Unless you're implying the Green Elves were like the Edain, or else went > well with Ham, I'm not sure what you're point is. Lúthien and Beren moved to a island where Green Elves. Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way! ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:11:03 -0400 Lines: 32 Message-ID: <37CECBA8.C315219D@erols.com> References: <7qer5a$27k_012@Org.xenite.org> <19990830171053.13940.00003707@ngol04.aol.com> <7qfpja$1rs_034@Org.xenite.org> <37CC06D4.D0463563@erols.com> <7qi9oj$23s_028@Org.xenite.org> <37CD6F6E.6C185AFF@erols.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: 1bPCvXyeZTRcwMOh4zvkY6884Hipfmt22HygE4PhAFQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Sep 1999 00:12:26 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Solinas wrote: > Michael Martinez wrote: > > > In article <37CC06D4.D0463563@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > > >Michael Martinez wrote: > > >> But Dior did not grow up among the Edain. He grew up with his parents, one > > >> of whom was an Adan and one who had been an Elf for the equivalent of > > >> thousands of years (did Luthien lose her subcreative faculties when she > > >> chose to become mortal?). He was not living in a community of Edain, and > > >> his nearest neighbors were Elves (apparently). > > > > > > Green Elves. > > > > Unless you're implying the Green Elves were like the Edain, or else went > > well with Ham, I'm not sure what you're point is. > > Lúthien and Beren moved to a island where Green Elves. Sorry, I left out 'lived'. Anyway, there wasn't a point, just annoucing your Elves' kind. Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7rgqm2$dk_014@Org.xenite.org> References: <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net> <19990826133422.15888.00002152@ngol06.aol.com> <7qibl9$6nl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7qidea$23s_054@Org.xenite.org> <37dc2472@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:16:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.91 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 937160296 207.224.148.91 (Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:18:16 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:18:16 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37dc2472@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk>, rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >>You're not that far off the track, actually. In "Cirion and Eorl" (in >>UNFINISHED TALES) there is a note which says that the Princes of Dol Amroth >>were given the title (prince) by Elendil because they were relatives of >>his. > >This makes no sense, though, as Dol Amroth was only named c. 2000 T.A., and >that's also when the first Price of Dol Amroth is recorded (See POME). Read that again. The title Elendil gave to them was "prince", not "lord of Dol Amroth". The lords of Dol Amroth didn't just move into the region when Galador came of age. See POME for further explanation. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: Prince Imrahil? Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37C57154.69CF802C@mediaone.net> <19990826133422.15888.00002152@ngol06.aol.com> <7qibl9$6nl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7qidea$23s_054@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk Distribution: world X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990805 ("Preacher Man") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: soolin.ecs.soton.ac.uk Message-ID: <37dc2472@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 12 Sep 1999 23:08:50 GMT X-Trace: 12 Sep 1999 23:08:50 GMT, soolin.ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.icl.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news-spool.soton.ac.uk!news.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >You're not that far off the track, actually. In "Cirion and Eorl" (in >UNFINISHED TALES) there is a note which says that the Princes of Dol Amroth >were given the title (prince) by Elendil because they were relatives of >his. This makes no sense, though, as Dol Amroth was only named c. 2000 T.A., and that's also when the first Price of Dol Amroth is recorded (See POME). -- Robert