From: gordonlew@aol.com (Gordon Nash) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Istari vs Wizards Lines: 5 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Aug 1999 03:17:09 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990820231709.14377.00002277@ng-fr1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.239.227!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail We know that Tolkien used Wizards as a translation of Istari. Do you think that the inhabitants of Middle Earth were aware of the distinction between Istari and other sorcerers, like the Mouth of Sauron? Or were they all wizards to the average man and elf? Feanole aka DrWhoFru ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari vs Wizards Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 09:41:58 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 33 Message-ID: <7pmdtr$ajv$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <19990820231709.14377.00002277@ng-fr1.aol.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.194 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 935246587 10879 12.79.23.194 (21 Aug 1999 14:43:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 1999 14:43:07 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Gordon Nash wrote in message news:19990820231709.14377.00002277@ng-fr1.aol.com... > We know that Tolkien used Wizards as a translation of > Istari. Do you think that the inhabitants of Middle Earth > were aware of the distinction between Istari and other > sorcerers, like the Mouth of Sauron? Or were they all > wizards to the average man and elf? Well, I suppose it would depend on which inhabitants of Middle Earth we were considering. The Elves at least seem to have distinguished between them as they had a specific term setting the Istari apart. Though it seems that even most Elves didn't know precisely what they were. Some text which might be relevant; "Wizard is a translation of Quenya istar (Sindarin ithron): one of the members of an 'order' (as they called it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature of the World. The translation (though suitable in its relation to 'wise' and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is not perhaps happy, since Heren Istarion or 'Order of Wizards' was quite distinct from the 'wizards' and 'magicians' of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Cirdan, and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came." UT, The Istari ###### Message-ID: <37BF4410.23A562BB@texas.net> From: Basty X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari vs Wizards References: <19990820231709.14377.00002277@ng-fr1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:27:45 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv1-a3nntOg+U503M09JYLRYpwoQLR6yrGhRRLjQ47TNBw+Bmy9IT60p0y4et+YGVW7yBkV9CSHG0XahwM8!ZG8BzPzzhfc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:28:00 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!news2.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Gordon Nash wrote: > We know that Tolkien used Wizards as a translation of Istari. Do you think that > the inhabitants of Middle Earth were aware of the distinction between Istari > and other sorcerers, like the Mouth of Sauron? Or were they all wizards to the > average man and elf? > Feanole aka DrWhoFru From what I remember only the Istari are referred to as wizards. All others are refered to as sorcerers or witch kings, etc. Regards, Zac Miller ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Istari vs Wizards Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37bf6eed.254350633@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <19990820231709.14377.00002277@ng-fr1.aol.com> <37BF4410.23A562BB@texas.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-65.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 27 Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 03:37:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 935293197 207.212.198.18 (Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:39:57 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:39:57 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:28:00 -0700, Basty wrote: > > >Gordon Nash wrote: > >> We know that Tolkien used Wizards as a translation of Istari. Do you think that >> the inhabitants of Middle Earth were aware of the distinction between Istari >> and other sorcerers, like the Mouth of Sauron? Or were they all wizards to the >> average man and elf? >> Feanole aka DrWhoFru > >From what I remember only the Istari are referred to as wizards. All others are >refered to as sorcerers or witch kings, etc. Sauron is referred to as a wizard, IIRC. This is especially interesting because the *other* Quenya word for 'wizard' (other than 'Istar') is 'Sairon'. I would guess that Sauron was originally 'Sairon', which was a title, not a name. The Elves probably started calling him 'Sauron' (meaning 'Foul One') in mockery of his title. (This sort of thing isn't all that uncommon. For a historical example, look up 'Beelzebub'.) Comments?