Message-ID: <37BEB30A.7B4CB628@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) References: <7pdl2e$29cg@drn.newsguy.com> <7pipes$24k_018@Org.xenite.org> <7pjmla$2u0$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <37BD6D85.B761C086@univie.ac.at> <7pk0i5$140_026@Org.xenite.org> <37BDB04E.63ED445F@univie.ac.at> <37BDD924.7AC0550D@virginia.edu> <37BE28B0.31F0BC25@mediaone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 10:09:14 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 935244629 24.128.99.214 (Sat, 21 Aug 1999 10:10:29 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 10:10:29 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Maia wrote: > I don't see how she could lack sufficient innate power. She is certainly much > more powerful than Glorfindel, who isn't even of a royal House. As to the royalty issue at least, 'Many Meetings' describes Glorfindel: "He is an Elf- Lord of a house of princes." Sounds like royalty to me. :) Cheers, Cian ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Aug 1999 15:45:29 GMT References: <37BEB30A.7B4CB628@mediaone.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990821114529.25874.00001807@ngol01.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nntp.psi.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37BEB30A.7B4CB628@mediaone.net>, Cian writes: >> I don't see how she could lack sufficient innate power. She is certainly >much >> more powerful than Glorfindel, who isn't even of a royal House. > >As to the royalty issue at least, 'Many Meetings' describes Glorfindel: >"He is an Elf- Lord of a house of princes." > >Sounds like royalty to me. :) Are you comparing him to Galadriel or Arwen? Glorfindel was Calaquendi. He had seen the light of the two trees. That makes him more "powerful" than any elf born in Middle Earth. So of the known characters, Galadriel would have been on a par with him but that's about it. Moreover, the fact that Glorfindel was reborn apparently gave him even extera power. Galadriel had been in Middle Earth for quite some time and was surely subject to the waning that affected the Noldor. The high water mark of the Noldor was the moment they set foot in Middle Earth after the rebellion - it was all downhill after that. Russ Russ ###### Message-ID: <37BF8C2A.98D2F8A7@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) References: <37BEB30A.7B4CB628@mediaone.net> <19990821114529.25874.00001807@ngol01.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 01:35:38 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 935300211 24.128.99.214 (Sun, 22 Aug 1999 01:36:51 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 01:36:51 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > Cian wrote: > >As to the royalty issue at least, 'Many Meetings' describes Glorfindel: > >"He is an Elf- Lord of a house of princes." > > > >Sounds like royalty to me. :) > > Are you comparing him to Galadriel or Arwen? > Glorfindel was Calaquendi. He had seen the light of the two trees. That makes > him more "powerful" than any elf born in Middle Earth. So of the known > characters, Galadriel would have been on a par with him but that's about it. > Moreover, the fact that Glorfindel was reborn apparently gave him even extera > power. Galadriel had been in Middle Earth for quite some time and was surely > subject to the waning that affected the Noldor. The high water mark of the > Noldor was the moment they set foot in Middle Earth after the rebellion - it > was all downhill after that. > Russ 'Maia' was comparing Galadriel to Glorfindel. I disagreed with the 'royalty' part as per my quote above (and the new thread title). As for 'innate power' vrs Glorfindel -- from 'The Rings of Power and the Third Age' Galadriel is described as: '... the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves who remained in Middle-earth.' Glorfindel is still awesome of course, (and Elf royalty!) for the reasons you mention, and better be wrathfully revealed in the movie too. Cheers, Cian ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37bf709a.254779268@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <37BEB30A.7B4CB628@mediaone.net> <19990821114529.25874.00001807@ngol01.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-65.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 32 Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 03:47:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 935293747 207.212.198.18 (Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:49:07 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:49:07 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On 21 Aug 1999 15:45:29 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >Are you comparing him to Galadriel or Arwen? > >Glorfindel was Calaquendi. He had seen the light of the two trees. That makes >him more "powerful" than any elf born in Middle Earth. So of the known Duke Lúthien was more powerful than any Calaquendë. >characters, Galadriel would have been on a par with him but that's about it. >Moreover, the fact that Glorfindel was reborn apparently gave him even extera >power. Galadriel had been in Middle Earth for quite some time and was surely >subject to the waning that affected the Noldor. The high water mark of the >Noldor was the moment they set foot in Middle Earth after the rebellion - it >was all downhill after that. I'm not sure you realize just how powerful Galadriel was. Tolkien said that the three most powerful Children of Ilúvatar were #1: Duke Lúthien. Come get some. #2: Fëanor #3: Galadriel (not necessarily in that order) Fëanor got toasted early on, and spent the rest of the existence of Arda in solitary confinement. Duke Lúthien decided she'd kicked enough asses for one lifetime and went into retirement. That leaves Galadriel as the most powerful Elf in Middle-earth in the Third Age. ###### From: Maia Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:24:14 +0200 Organization: Vienna University, Austria Lines: 53 Message-ID: <37BFB3AE.137A4F91@univie.ac.at> References: <37BEB30A.7B4CB628@mediaone.net> <19990821114529.25874.00001807@ngol01.aol.com> <37bf709a.254779268@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elektronik.hno.akh-wien.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: www.univie.ac.at 935308880 27254 149.148.83.4 (22 Aug 1999 08:01:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 1999 08:01:20 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [de] (Win98; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed03.univie.ac.at!news.univie.ac.at!not-for-mail Mark Wells schrieb: > > On 21 Aug 1999 15:45:29 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: > > >Are you comparing him to Galadriel or Arwen? > > > >Glorfindel was Calaquendi. He had seen the light of the two trees. That makes > >him more "powerful" than any elf born in Middle Earth. So of the known > > Duke Lúthien was more powerful than any Calaquendë. And isn't Elrond considered more powerful than Glorfindel? And Elrond wasn't only born in Middle-Earth in the era of the Sun, he is also relatively young for an elf. IMHO descent from Melian gives one lots of bonuses. Which could be pertinent for the assesment of Arwen's innate power. Galadriel's blood likely didn't hurt either. > >characters, Galadriel would have been on a par with him but that's about it. > >Moreover, the fact that Glorfindel was reborn apparently gave him even extera > >power. Is it mentioned somewhere? One would think that a reincarnated person would have somewhat less innate power than before, because some of it would have gone into building a new body. Examples in case - Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman... > > Galadriel had been in Middle Earth for quite some time and was surely > >subject to the waning that affected the Noldor. The high water mark of the > >Noldor was the moment they set foot in Middle Earth after the rebellion - it > >was all downhill after that. > > I'm not sure you realize just how powerful Galadriel was. Tolkien > said that the three most powerful Children of Ilúvatar were > > #1: Duke Lúthien. Come get some. > > #2: Fëanor > #3: Galadriel > (not necessarily in that order) > > Fëanor got toasted early on, and spent the rest of the existence of > Arda in solitary confinement. Duke Lúthien decided she'd kicked > enough asses for one lifetime and went into retirement. > > That leaves Galadriel as the most powerful Elf in Middle-earth in the > Third Age. Indeed. There was also some mention of the Three being given to the three _most powerful_ Eldar. Glorfindel wasn't one of them. As to his royality - he isn't a relation of Ingwe or Finwe, is he? He was of Turgon's people, but no direct ties to the royal house(s) were ever mentioned. "From the house of princes" likely means that he was from elven nobility. ###### Message-ID: <37BFE8E1.2BC182E4@wizard.net> From: "James Russell Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) References: <37BEB30A.7B4CB628@mediaone.net> <19990821114529.25874.00001807@ngol01.aol.com> <37bf709a.254779268@news.pc-intouch.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.32 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 935323544 206.161.15.32 (Sun, 22 Aug 1999 08:05:44 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 08:05:44 EDT Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 08:11:13 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!hub1.ispnews.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote: ... > Duke Lúthien was more powerful than any Calaquendë. The only Lúthien I'm familiar with was never referred in the original English version as "Duke". Was she so referred to in some translation? If so, the appropriate back-translation would more appropriately be Duchess than Duke. ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 11:58:20 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <37BEB30A.7B4CB628@mediaone.net> <19990821114529.25874.00001807@ngol01.aol.com> <37bf709a.254779268@news.pc-intouch.com> <37BFE8E1.2BC182E4@wizard.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.16.83 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 22 Aug 1999 15:44:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!207.114.4.11!nntp.abs.net!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!jblanks "James Russell Kuyper Jr." wrote: > Mark Wells wrote: > ... > > Duke Lúthien was more powerful than any Calaquendë. > > The only Lúthien I'm familiar with was never referred in the original > English version as "Duke". I think this is a reference to Duke Nukem. -- "Americans never solve their problems; they just amiably bid them good-bye." --George Santayana ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 12:00:43 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <37BEB30A.7B4CB628@mediaone.net> <19990821114529.25874.00001807@ngol01.aol.com> <37BF8C2A.98D2F8A7@mediaone.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.16.83 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 22 Aug 1999 15:46:24 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!jblanks Cian wrote: > Glorfindel is still awesome of course, (and Elf royalty!) for the reasons you > mention, and better be wrathfully revealed in the movie too. Considering what PJ seems to want to do with Arwen, odds are he won't make it at all. Oh, well. Besides, if he's _such_ a big shot, why is he living at _someone_else's_ house?? (Maybe we should get "Kato" Kaelin to play him??) :-P -- "Americans never solve their problems; they just amiably bid them good-bye." --George Santayana ###### Message-ID: <37C01FD8.4B1D90A0@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) References: <37BEB30A.7B4CB628@mediaone.net> <19990821114529.25874.00001807@ngol01.aol.com> <37bf709a.254779268@news.pc-intouch.com> <37BFB3AE.137A4F91@univie.ac.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 34 Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 12:05:44 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 935338020 24.128.99.214 (Sun, 22 Aug 1999 12:07:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 12:07:00 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Maia wrote: > McREsq wrote Galadriel would have been on a par with him but that's about > it.Moreover, the fact that Glorfindel was reborn apparently gave him even extera > power. > > Is it mentioned somewhere? One would think that a reincarnated person > would have somewhat less innate power than before, because some of it > would have gone into building a new body. Examples in case - Morgoth, > Sauron, Saruman... In "Last Writings" (POME) the reincarnate Glorfindel is said to have become almost an equal to the Maiar. Of course, the light of Aman always helps -- and add an extra boost because of the nature of his sacrifice in Gondolin. > As to his royality - he isn't a relation of Ingwe or Finwe, is he? He was of > > Turgon's people, but no direct ties to the royal house(s) were ever > mentioned. "From the house of princes" likely means that he was from > elven nobility. An 'Elf-Lord from a house of princes'. As I say, we are never given any direct lineage from the likely house of Finwë, but a prince is a royal designation in my book, and Glorfindel is a -lord- from a house of more than one it seems - that's two royal designations in one short sentence. Tolkien's wording strongly suggests royalty, call it 'nobility' as you like. Perhaps a fuller post LOTR's account of 'The Fall of Gondolin' might have pinned down Glorfindel's lineage, but then again, even -written- lore passed down the ages often contains these delightful 'holes' in history. Would've -loved- a finalized, post LOTR's 'Fall of Gondolin' in any case! Cheers, Cian ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) Lines: 52 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Aug 1999 18:02:53 GMT References: <37bf709a.254779268@news.pc-intouch.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <19990822140253.05945.00001765@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37bf709a.254779268@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes: >>Are you comparing him to Galadriel or Arwen? >> >>Glorfindel was Calaquendi. He had seen the light of the two trees. That >makes >>him more "powerful" than any elf born in Middle Earth. So of the known > >Duke Lúthien was more powerful than any Calaquendë. She was an exception to the rule: probably because she was half Maia. >>characters, Galadriel would have been on a par with him but that's about it. > >>Moreover, the fact that Glorfindel was reborn apparently gave him even >extera >>power. Galadriel had been in Middle Earth for quite some time and was surely >>subject to the waning that affected the Noldor. The high water mark of the >>Noldor was the moment they set foot in Middle Earth after the rebellion - it >>was all downhill after that. > >I'm not sure you realize just how powerful Galadriel was. Tolkien >said that the three most powerful Children of Ilúvatar were > >#1: Duke Lúthien. Come get some. > >#2: Fëanor >#3: Galadriel >(not necessarily in that order) He made that description of Galadriel while she was still in Valinor. He said elsewhere that the calaquendi Noldor waned the longer they were in Middle Earth - the special qualities attained in Aman decreasing over time. By the end of the Third Age Galadriel had been in ME quite long time. OTOH, GLorfindel died, was reborn, returned to Aman and then released to Middle Earth. His calaquendiness *may* (I am not positing certainties here) have outstripped Galadriel's by the end of the third age. While Galadriel was more innately powerful, Glorfindel was no slouch - taking out a balrog an all. Russ >Fëanor got toasted early on, and spent the rest of the existence of >Arda in solitary confinement. Duke Lúthien decided she'd kicked >enough asses for one lifetime and went into retirement. > >That leaves Galadriel as the most powerful Elf in Middle-earth in the >Third Age. > ###### From: jubjub@flash.net (Lord Jubjub) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) Message-ID: References: <37BEB30A.7B4CB628@mediaone.net> <19990821114529.25874.00001807@ngol01.aol.com> <37bf709a.254779268@news.pc-intouch.com> <37BFE8E1.2BC182E4@wizard.net> Organization: The Kingdom of the Absurd X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 19 Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 20:04:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.30.70.211 X-Complaints-To: abuse@flash.net X-Trace: news.flash.net 935352265 209.30.70.211 (Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:04:25 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:04:25 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!news.flash.net!not-for-mail In article , jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) wrote: > "James Russell Kuyper Jr." wrote: > > > Mark Wells wrote: > > ... > > > Duke Lúthien was more powerful than any Calaquendë. > > > > The only Lúthien I'm familiar with was never referred in the original > > English version as "Duke". > > I think this is a reference to Duke Nukem. Which, if you don't know video games, is a first-person shoot-em-up where it is easy just to start spraying hot lead around and kill anything that moves. Duke Nuk'em is the name of the hero. -- Lord Jubjub, Ruler of the Jabberwocky, Guardian of the Wabe ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37c066b0.1070428@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <37BEB30A.7B4CB628@mediaone.net> <19990821114529.25874.00001807@ngol01.aol.com> <37bf709a.254779268@news.pc-intouch.com> <37BFE8E1.2BC182E4@wizard.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-54.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 28 Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 21:12:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 935356424 207.212.198.18 (Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:13:44 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:13:44 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Sun, 22 Aug 1999 08:11:13 -0400, "James Russell Kuyper Jr." wrote: >Mark Wells wrote: >... >> Duke Lúthien was more powerful than any Calaquendë. > >The only Lúthien I'm familiar with was never referred in the original >English version as "Duke". Was she so referred to in some translation? I didn't know there *were* translations of the Silmarillion. OK, there are translations of LOTR, and Lúthien is mentioned a few times there. But I haven't read them. >If so, the appropriate back-translation would more appropriately be >Duchess than Duke. Stop nitpicking, OK? ;-) I posted something a few days ago in which I compared Lúthien to Duke Nukem, the video game character. So now I'm going to refer to her as Duke Lúthien. I could also compare her to Ash from the movies "Evil Dead" and "Army of Darkness" (upon whom Duke Nukem was based to some extent), but that's a bit of a stretch. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37c067fb.1401731@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <37bf709a.254779268@news.pc-intouch.com> <19990822140253.05945.00001765@ngol03.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-54.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 34 Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 21:27:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 935357105 207.212.198.18 (Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:25:05 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:25:05 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On 22 Aug 1999 18:02:53 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >>Duke Lúthien was more powerful than any Calaquendë. > >She was an exception to the rule: probably because she was half Maia. What, and Galadriel and Fëanor *aren't* exceptions? >He made that description of Galadriel while she was still in Valinor. He said >elsewhere that the calaquendi Noldor waned the longer they were in Middle Earth >- the special qualities attained in Aman decreasing over time. By the end of >the Third Age Galadriel had been in ME quite long time. Yes, but what made the Calaquendi what they were was exposure to the light of the Two Trees. Galadriel was in Aman when the Trees were destroyed, and *at that time* she and Fëanor were the most powerful Elves in Aman. Glorfindel must have been there at that time also. So at that time Galadriel was more powerful than Glorfindel. Hold that thought... >OTOH, GLorfindel died, was reborn, returned to Aman and then released to Middle >Earth. His calaquendiness *may* (I am not positing certainties here) have >outstripped Galadriel's by the end of the third age. While Galadriel was more His 'Calaquendiness' depended on being in the light of the Trees. When he was killed, he went back to Aman, but he didn't go into the light of the Trees, because the Trees were dead. The only one whose 'Calaquendiness' may have improved at all during this time would be Earendil, who had a piece of the light of the Two Trees bolted to his ship. Very ironic that it's someone who had to be officially proclaimed an Elf by a committee. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:31:13 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 25 Message-ID: <7ppqdk$aum$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <37BEB30A.7B4CB628@mediaone.net> <19990821114529.25874.00001807@ngol01.aol.com> <37bf709a.254779268@news.pc-intouch.com> <37BFE8E1.2BC182E4@wizard.net> <37c066b0.1070428@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-b032.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 935357684 11222 195.167.119.160 (22 Aug 1999 21:34:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 1999 21:34:44 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote in message news:37c066b0.1070428@news.pc-intouch.com... > On Sun, 22 Aug 1999 08:11:13 -0400, "James Russell Kuyper Jr." > wrote: > > >Mark Wells wrote: > >... > >> Duke Lúthien was more powerful than any Calaquendë. > > > >The only Lúthien I'm familiar with was never referred in the original > >English version as "Duke". Was she so referred to in some translation? > > I didn't know there *were* translations of the Silmarillion. ? There is even a Greek translation of the Silmarillion - I've read it (though I read the English version first). And since I don't think that Greek would be the very first language it would be translated to, I assume it has already been translated to French, German, Spanish and other languages as well. Aris Katsaris ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf royalty (was Re: Moriarty's Script Excerpts) Lines: 62 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Aug 1999 14:12:37 GMT References: <37c067fb.1401731@news.pc-intouch.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <19990823101237.15608.00001786@ngol06.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37c067fb.1401731@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes: >>>Duke Lúthien was more powerful than any Calaquendë. >> >>She was an exception to the rule: probably because she was half Maia. > >What, and Galadriel and Fëanor *aren't* exceptions? Well, they were in different categories. Luthien was half-Maia. Galadriel and Feanor were "merely" elf. > >>He made that description of Galadriel while she was still in Valinor. He >said >>elsewhere that the calaquendi Noldor waned the longer they were in Middle >Earth >>- the special qualities attained in Aman decreasing over time. By the end >of >>the Third Age Galadriel had been in ME quite long time. > >Yes, but what made the Calaquendi what they were was exposure to the >light of the Two Trees. Galadriel was in Aman when the Trees were >destroyed, and *at that time* she and Fëanor were the most powerful >Elves in Aman. Glorfindel must have been there at that time also. So >at that time Galadriel was more powerful than Glorfindel. I agree, in Aman Galadriel was more powerful that Glrofindel, and continued to be more powerful than Glorfindel up until the time he was killed defeating the Balrog in Goldolin... >Hold that thought... > >>OTOH, GLorfindel died, was reborn, returned to Aman and then released to >Middle >>Earth. His calaquendiness *may* (I am not positing certainties here) have >>outstripped Galadriel's by the end of the third age. While Galadriel was >more > >His 'Calaquendiness' depended on being in the light of the Trees. >When he was killed, he went back to Aman, but he didn't go into the >light of the Trees, because the Trees were dead. Tolkien also said that his rebirth and sacrifice empowered Glorfindel more than the original version. OTOH, Gladriel had continued to wane during the long years in Middle Earth. All I've been saying is that in terms of "power" its not clear that Galdriel remained as powerful as the reincarnate Glorfindel. She may have been but I don't think we can say for sure either way >The only one whose 'Calaquendiness' may have improved at all during >this time would be Earendil, who had a piece of the light of the Two >Trees bolted to his ship. Very ironic that it's someone who had to be >officially proclaimed an Elf by a committee. Presumably, that decision had to be ratified by Eru. The Valar can't go around changing the basic nature of Illuvatar's children without his consent. Russ