From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: To Aman or Tol Erressa? Date: 17 Aug 1999 06:49:29 GMT Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ (USA) Lines: 40 Message-ID: <7pb0lp$mis$1@news.asu.edu> Reply-To: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec2.asu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!204.121.3.5!newshost.lanl.gov!ncar!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!aztec.asu.edu!chuckb Sorry, I forget the original subject that I posted a reply under. In it I stated that it was my understanding that Frodo, bilbo, & co. did not go to Aman proper, but to tol Erressa. I stated that that would allow the ban on mortals in Aman to stand, and still allow Frodo, Bilbo, Gimly, and Sam to go "West". I was challenged by someone, I forget who, to provide a citation for that. Well, it's taken me a bit of time, being out for the weekend and all, but I have one - sorta... From "Letters", #154 to Naomi Mitchison: (Pg. 198) " But the promise made to the Eldar ( the High Elves -- not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle Earth to Paradise ) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle Earth, if they wished, and pass over sea to the True West, and so come to Erressa -- but so pass out of time and history, never to return. The Half- elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen. But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accomodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions): and so certain "mortals", who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. [goes on]" So, it would seem from that that they go to Tol Erressa, not Aman. but then we have another letter... #325, "From a letter to roger Lancelyn Green": (Page 410.) " The "immortals" who were permitted to leave Middle-earth an seek Aman -- the undying lands of Valinor and Erressa, and island assigned to the Eldar[...]" So, it appears that Aman comprises both Valinor and Tol Erressa. I was holding Aman to be Valinor only. My misinterpretaion - sorry. -- ###### Message-ID: <37B9541F.337C39A1@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: To Aman or Tol Erressa? References: <7pb0lp$mis$1@news.asu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.92 X-Trace: typ11.nn.bcandid.com 934892276 206.161.15.92 (Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:17:56 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:17:56 EDT Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:22:55 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!gate.bcandid.com.MISMATCH!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail CHUCK BRAMLET wrote: > > Sorry, I forget the original subject that I posted a reply under. > > In it I stated that it was my understanding that Frodo, bilbo, & > co. did not go to Aman proper, but to tol Erressa. I stated that > that would allow the ban on mortals in Aman to stand, and still > allow Frodo, Bilbo, Gimly, and Sam to go "West". > > I was challenged by someone, I forget who, to provide a citation > for that. Well, it's taken me a bit of time, being out for the > weekend and all, but I have one - sorta... Sounds like something I did. ... > #325, "From a letter to roger Lancelyn Green": (Page 410.) > " The "immortals" who were permitted to leave Middle-earth an seek > Aman -- the undying lands of Valinor and Erressa, and island assigned > to the Eldar[...]" > > So, it appears that Aman comprises both Valinor and Tol Erressa. > I was holding Aman to be Valinor only. My misinterpretaion - sorry. > -- That is very strange; the Silmarillion seems to identify Aman as the western continent, and Valinor as the part of it behind the mountains of Aman. I can't remember ever previously reading anything to suggest that Tol Eressea itself counted as part of Aman. I still believe that it's possible for mortals to have entered Valinor itself, given the appropriate permissions on a special-case basis. The existence of ban on their presence is irrelevant, as long as the ban is something that could be raised for sufficiently special cases. My point is that we only know that they travelled West; we don't know how far. ###### Message-ID: <37B974BD.3BF255DD@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: To Aman or Tol Erressa? References: <7pb0lp$mis$1@news.asu.edu> <37B9541F.337C39A1@wizard.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:42:05 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 934900990 24.128.99.214 (Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:43:10 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:43:10 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail "James Kuyper Jr." wrote: > > #325, "From a letter to roger Lancelyn Green": (Page 410.) > > " The "immortals" who were permitted to leave Middle-earth an seek > > Aman -- the undying lands of Valinor and Erressa, and island assigned > > to the Eldar[...]" > > > > So, it appears that Aman comprises both Valinor and Tol Erressa. > > I was holding Aman to be Valinor only. My misinterpretaion - sorry. > > That is very strange; the Silmarillion seems to identify Aman as the > western continent, and Valinor as the part of it behind the mountains of > Aman. I can't remember ever previously reading anything to suggest that > Tol Eressea itself counted as part of Aman. > Technically, Tol Eressea wasn't land joined to Aman, so it probably doesn't count in the geographical sense. The term 'Undying Lands' more properly includes both Tol Eressea and Aman. Special grace for mortals to dwell in immortal lands would be needed in any case. Cheers, Cian ###### From: kern@ac.grin.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: To Aman or Tol Erressa? Message-ID: <37b961e7.416778@news.usenetserver.com> References: <7pb0lp$mis$1@news.asu.edu> <37B9541F.337C39A1@wizard.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 11 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:22:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.162.144.86 X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com X-Trace: IRIS 934906855 149.162.144.86 (Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:20:55 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:20:55 PDT Organization: UseNet Server, Inc. http://www.usenetserver.com - Home of the fastest NNTP servers on the Net. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.itconsult.net!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!IRIS.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:22:55 -0400, "James Kuyper Jr." wrote: >I still believe that it's possible for mortals to have entered Valinor >itself, given the appropriate permissions on a special-case basis. It's possible for them to enter, but not to survive. According to Tolkien they would wither and die an unhappy death, or their spirits would wish to die but their bodies would stay alive. -Chris ###### From: Robert Brady Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: To Aman or Tol Erressa? Date: 17 Aug 1999 13:53:31 GMT Organization: Electronics and Computer Science, University of Southampton Lines: 17 Message-ID: <7pbpgr$muj@wapping.ecs.soton.ac.uk> References: <7pb0lp$mis$1@news.asu.edu> Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: felix.ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i686)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!server3.netnews.ja.net!spruce.sucs.soton.ac.uk!wapping.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail CHUCK BRAMLET wrote: >#325, "From a letter to roger Lancelyn Green": (Page 410.) >" The "immortals" who were permitted to leave Middle-earth an seek >Aman -- the undying lands of Valinor and Erressa, and island assigned >to the Eldar[...]" I think that was probably just a simplification. If I remember my geography correctly... Aman = the continent Valinor = the mid-region of Aman (not extreme north and south). Eldamar = the east of Aman Erressa = the island to the east of Eldamar -- Robert ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: To Aman or Tol Erressa? Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7pc25c$1vg_012@Org.xenite.org> References: <7pb0lp$mis$1@news.asu.edu> <7pbpgr$muj@wapping.ecs.soton.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 23 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:21:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.77 X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com X-Trace: news3.usenetserver.com 934907541 209.181.118.77 (Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:32:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:32:21 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!feeder.qis.net!nntp.abs.net!remarQ-easT!remarQ60!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!news3.usenetserver.com.POSTED!Xenite In article <7pbpgr$muj@wapping.ecs.soton.ac.uk>, rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk wrote: >If I remember my geography correctly... > > Aman = the continent > Valinor = the mid-region of Aman (not extreme north and south). > Eldamar = the east of Aman > Erressa = the island to the east of Eldamar Eldamar was a region of Aman on the eastern coast, but it only extended over the central portion. Avathar lay to the south of Eldamar and Araman lay to the north (although Araman extended inland in the northern regions). Tol Eressea actually lay within a bay (called the Bay of Eldamar), so there were apparently one or two arms of land which extended out from Aman, or else the coastline had a "bowl" in it. Alqualonde was located somewhere in northern Eldamar, on the shores of the bay. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <37BA007F.B8188FA2@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: To Aman or Tol Erressa? References: <7pb0lp$mis$1@news.asu.edu> <37B9541F.337C39A1@wizard.net> <37b961e7.416778@news.usenetserver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.114 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 934936399 206.161.15.114 (Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:33:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:33:19 EDT Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:38:23 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Chris Kern wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:22:55 -0400, "James Kuyper Jr." > wrote: > > >I still believe that it's possible for mortals to have entered Valinor > >itself, given the appropriate permissions on a special-case basis. > > It's possible for them to enter, but not to survive. According to > Tolkien they would wither and die an unhappy death, or their spirits > would wish to die but their bodies would stay alive. He was talking about staying there; I only meant that they might have visited there (that's not quite consistent with some of my previous statements - sorry).