From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Avari Going West Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 17 Aug 1999 16:03:52 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990817120352.16940.00000713@ngol02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I don't have any texts with me so bear with me. I remember somewhere - either letters of UT since I'm re-reading those now - that only Eldar were allowed to go to Aman by the straight road. The Avari's decision not to answer the call and go on the Great Journey was considered an irrevocable choice. This the Avari apparently stayed in Middle Earth and faded. However, I have the feeling that Tolkien changed his mind on this and all Elves - Avari and Eldar - were allowed to make the journey over the sea. Can anybody clarify this for me? Russ ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari Going West Date: 17 Aug 1999 13:45:07 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 34 Message-ID: <7pchkj$ck1@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7pc1ni$1vg_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990817125951.16940.00000719@ngol02.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-946.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On 17 Aug 1999 16:59:51 GMT, in article <19990817125951.16940.00000719@ngol02.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com resolved to say for all to read and review: > >In article <7pc1ni$1vg_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: >>Nope. All Elves were originally invited to go West. Sometime after the >>first sundering of the Elves, however, the Avari were excluded. But after >>the War of Wrath the Valar again opened the invitation to all Elves. So >>even the Avari were able to sail over Sea by the straight road. >> > >OK, so the "irrevocable choice" time was between the beginning of the Great >Journey and the War of Wrath? During that period, the Avari could not have >travelled to Aman. Correct. >On a similar note, could the Sindar at any time have gone to the West, >including during the "irrevocable choice" period I referred to above? They >were Eldar and they weren't subject to the restrictions placed on the >rebellious Noldor. They could have gone West (assuming there was a way over Sea) up until the Rebellion of the Noldor and the Hiding of Valinor. From that time until Eonwe summoned all the Elves again at the end of the War of Wrath, there was no chance of entry into Aman for the Sindar. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Avari Going West Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7pc1ni$1vg_010@Org.xenite.org> References: <19990817120352.16940.00000713@ngol02.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:13:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.77 X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com X-Trace: news3.usenetserver.com 934907100 209.181.118.77 (Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:25:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:25:00 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.itconsult.net!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!news3.usenetserver.com.POSTED!Xenite In article <19990817120352.16940.00000713@ngol02.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >I don't have any texts with me so bear with me. I remember somewhere - either >letters of UT since I'm re-reading those now - that only Eldar were allowed to >go to Aman by the straight road. The Avari's decision not to answer the call >and go on the Great Journey was considered an irrevocable choice. This the >Avari apparently stayed in Middle Earth and faded. Nope. All Elves were originally invited to go West. Sometime after the first sundering of the Elves, however, the Avari were excluded. But after the War of Wrath the Valar again opened the invitation to all Elves. So even the Avari were able to sail over Sea by the straight road. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari Going West Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 17 Aug 1999 16:59:51 GMT References: <7pc1ni$1vg_010@Org.xenite.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990817125951.16940.00000719@ngol02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7pc1ni$1vg_010@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >In article <19990817120352.16940.00000713@ngol02.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com >(McREsq) wrote: >>I don't have any texts with me so bear with me. I remember somewhere - >either >>letters of UT since I'm re-reading those now - that only Eldar were allowed >to >>go to Aman by the straight road. The Avari's decision not to answer the >call >>and go on the Great Journey was considered an irrevocable choice. This the >>Avari apparently stayed in Middle Earth and faded. > >Nope. All Elves were originally invited to go West. Sometime after the >first sundering of the Elves, however, the Avari were excluded. But after >the War of Wrath the Valar again opened the invitation to all Elves. So >even the Avari were able to sail over Sea by the straight road. > OK, so the "irrevocable choice" time was between the beginning of the Great Journey and the War of Wrath? During that period, the Avari could not have travelled to Aman. On a similar note, could the Sindar at any time have gone to the West, including during the "irrevocable choice" period I referred to above? They were Eldar and they weren't subject to the restrictions placed on the rebellious Noldor. Russ ###### Message-ID: <37B9CF4B.B44DE4A6@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari Going West References: <7pc1ni$1vg_010@Org.xenite.org> <19990817125951.16940.00000719@ngol02.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 33 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:08:27 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 934924174 24.128.99.214 (Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:09:34 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:09:34 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > OK, so the "irrevocable choice" time was between the beginning of the Great > Journey and the War of Wrath? During that period, the Avari could not have > travelled to Aman. > > On a similar note, could the Sindar at any time have gone to the West, > including during the "irrevocable choice" period I referred to above? They > were Eldar and they weren't subject to the restrictions placed on the > rebellious Noldor. > > Russ I don't see any mention that the remaining Teleri (thus Sindar) were forbidden Aman or Tol Eressea after the Sundering. Interestingly, in 'Last Writings' [POME] it is even said that Cirdan an co. were awaiting the return of Tol Eressea (apparently unaware at first that the isle wasn't coming back) to bear again those that wished to follow. Tolkien also mentions Cirdan's desire for the west, but that 'he received a message in his heart' ... 'warning him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet'. This message seemingly comes not long after Olwë had departed upon the floating Isle. The sundering was a grief to the Elves on both shores, but many of the Sindar would not abandon Thingol in any case. I don't think the choice of some of the Sindar to remain in Middle-earth (initially for other reasons than the Avari) banned them from the West, but that the Great Sea would be a rather daunting divide for a bit. Cheers, Cian ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari Going West Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 17 Aug 1999 21:28:51 GMT References: <7pchkj$ck1@drn.newsguy.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990817172851.01778.00000492@ngol08.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7pchkj$ck1@drn.newsguy.com>, Michael Martinez writes: >>>Nope. All Elves were originally invited to go West. Sometime after the >>>first sundering of the Elves, however, the Avari were excluded. But after >>>the War of Wrath the Valar again opened the invitation to all Elves. So >>>even the Avari were able to sail over Sea by the straight road. >>> >> >>OK, so the "irrevocable choice" time was between the beginning of the Great >>Journey and the War of Wrath? During that period, the Avari could not have >>travelled to Aman. > >Correct. > >>On a similar note, could the Sindar at any time have gone to the West, >>including during the "irrevocable choice" period I referred to above? They >>were Eldar and they weren't subject to the restrictions placed on the >>rebellious Noldor. > >They could have gone West (assuming there was a way over Sea) up until the >Rebellion of the Noldor and the Hiding of Valinor. From that time until >Eonwe >summoned all the Elves again at the end of the War of Wrath, there was no >chance >of entry into Aman for the Sindar. > Thank you. Russ