From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations Date: 14 Aug 1999 21:57:59 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 427 Message-ID: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-743.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn These citations are provided from MORGOTH'S RING. Some people have incorrectly stated that a Valian Year was equivalent to 144 years of the Sun. It will be seen from the citations below that they are not telling the full story. From the opening of "Myths Transformed": In this last section of the book I give a number of late writings of my father's, various in nature but concerned with, broadly speaking, the reinterpretation of central elements in the 'mythology' (or LEGENDARIUM as he called it) to accord with the imperatives of a greatly modified underlyin conception. Some of these papers (there are notable exceptions) offer exceptional difficulty: fluidity of ideas, ambiguous and allusive expression, illegible passages. But the greatest problem is that there is very little firm indication of date external or relative: to order them into even an approximate sequence of composition seems impossible (though I believe that virtually all of them come from the years that saw the writing of LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDER, THE ATHRABETH, and late revisions of parts of the QUENTA SILMARILLION -- the 1950s, in the aftermath of the publication of THE LORD OF THE RINGS). In these writings can be read the record of a prolonged interior debate. Years before this time, the first signs have been seen of emerging ideas that if pursued would cause massive disturbance in THE SILMARILLION: I have shown, as I believe, that when my father first began to revise and rewrite the existing narratives of the Elder Days, before THE LORD OF THE RINGS was completed, he wrote a version of the AINULINDALE that introduced a radical transformation of the astronomical myth, but that for that time he stayed his hand (pp. 3-6, 43). But now, as will be seen in many of the essays and notes that follow, he had come to believe that such a vast upheaval was a necessity, that the cosmos of the old myth was no longer valid; and at the same time he was impelled to try to reconstruct a more secure 'theoretical' or 'systematic' basis for elements in the LEGENDARIUM that were not to be dislodged. With their questionings, their certainties giving way to doubt, their contradictory resolutions, these writings are to be read with a sense of intellectual and imaginitive stress in the face of such a dismantling and reconstitution, believed to be an inescapable necessity, but never to be achieved. [skip remaining preamble, ten essays, and associated notes and commentaries] XI This concluding text, entitled AMAN, is a clear manuscript written with little hesitation or correction. I had regarded it as an indepdendent essay, and in doubt where best to place it had left it to the end; but when this book had been fully completed and prepared for publication I realised that it stands in fact in very close relationship to the manuscript of ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH. This manuscript opens with an introductory section (given in the typescript version that my father subsequently made, pp. 304-5), beginning with the statement that some Men believed that their HROAR were not by nature short-lived, but had become so by the malice of Melkor. I had not observed the significance of some lines at the head of this first page of the ATHRABETH, which my father had struck through: these lines begin with 'the HROA, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster', and end '...Death itself, in either agony or horror, would with Men enter into Aman itself.' Now this passage is virtually identical to the conclusion of the present text, the last page of which begins at precisely the same point. It is clear, therefore, that AMAN originally led into the ATHRABETH, but that my father removed it to stand alone and copied out the concluding passage on a separate sheet. At the same time, presumably, he gave the remainder (the ATHRABETH and its introduction) the titles OF DEATH AND THE CHILDREN OF ERU, AND THE MARRING OF MEN and THE CONVERSE OF FINROD AND ANDRETH.[1] It might have been preferable to place AMAN with the ATHRABETH in Part Four; but I thought it unnecessary at such a late stage to embark on a major upheaval of the structure of the book, and so left it to stand separately here. Aman In Aman things were far otherwise than in Middle-earth. But they resembled the mode of Elvish life, just as the Elves more nearly resembled the Valar and Maiar than do Men. In Aman the length of the unit of 'year' was the same as it was for the Quendi. But for a different reason. In Aman this length was assigned by the Valar for their own purposes, and was related to that process which may be called the 'Ageing of Arda'. For Aman was within Arda and therefore within the Time of Arda (which was not eternal, whether Unmarred or Marred). Therefore Arda and all things in it must age, however slowly, as it proceeds from beginning to end. This ageing could be perceived by the Valar in about that length of time (proportionate to the whole of Arda's appointed span) which they called a Year; but not in a less period [2]. But as for the Valar themselves, and the Maiar also in their degree: they could live at any speed of thought or motion which they chose or desired.[*][3] [*] They could move backward or forward in thought, and return again so swiftly that to those who were in their presence they did not appear to have moved. All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music, or as each one of them was speciall concerned with this or that part of Eru's design, being His agent or Subcreator. In this way of perception they could foresee none of the acts of the Children, ELves and Men, in whose conceiving and introduction into Ea none of the Valar had played any part at all; concerning the Children they could only deduce likelihood, in the same way as can the Children themselves, though from a far greater knowledge of facts and the contributory events of the past, and with far greater intelligence and wisdom. Yet there always remained an uncertainty with regard to the words and deeds of Elves and Men in Time not yet unfolded. The unit, or Valian Year, was thus not in Aman related to the natural rates of 'growth' of any person or thing that dwelt there. Time in Aman was actual time, not merely a mode of perception. As, say 100 years went by in Middle-earth as part of Arda, so 100 years passed in Aman, which was also a part of Arda. It was, however, the fact that the Elvish speed of 'growth' accorded with the unit of Valian time [+--] that made it possible for the Valar to bring the Eldar to dwell in Aman. In one Valian year the Eldar dwelling there groew and developed in much the same way as mortals did in one year upon Middle-earth. In recording the events in Aman, therefore, we may as did the Eldar themselves use the Valian unit, [4] though we must not forget that within any such 'year' the Eldar enjoyed an immense series of delights and achievements which even the most gifted of Men could not accomplish in twelve times twelve mortal years. Nonetheless the Eldar 'aged' at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth. [+--] Not by the design of the Valar, though doubtless not by chance. That is, it may be that Eru in designing the natures of Elves and Men and their relations to one another and to the Valar ordained that the 'growth' of the Elves should accord with the Valian perception of the progress or ageing of Arda, so that the Elves should be able to cohabit with the Valar and Maiar. Since the Children appeared in the Music, and also in the Vision, the Valar knew something or indeed much of the ordained natures of Elves and Men before they came into existence. They knew certainly that Elves should be 'immortal' or of very long life, and Men of brief life. But it was probably only during the sojourn of Orome among the fathers of the Quendi that the Valar discovered precisely what was the mode of their lives with regard to the lapse of Time. But the Eldar were not NATIVE to Aman, which had not been, by the Valar, designed for them. In Aman, before their coming, there had dwelt only the Valar and their lesser kindred the Maiar. But for their delight and use there were in Aman also a great multitude of creatures, without FEAR, of many kinds: animals or moving creatures, and plants that are steadfast. There, it is believed, were the counterparts of all the creatures that are or have been on Earth, [6] and others also that were made for Aman only. And each kind had, as on Earth, its own nature and natural speed of growth. But since Aman was made for teh valar, that they might have peace and delight therein, all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were trained or bred or brought into being for the purpose of the inhabitation of Aman were given a speed of growth such that one year of the life natural to their kinds on Earth should in Aman be one Valian Year. For the Eldar this was a source of joy. For in Aman the world appeared to them as it does to Men on Earth, but without the shadow of death soon to come. Whereas on Earth to them all things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to change and die or pass away, in Aman they endured and did not so soon cheat love with their mortality. On Earth while an elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, in some 3000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change, while birds and flowers innumerable would be born and die in LOAR upon LOAR under the wheeling Sun. But beside all this Aman is called also the Blessed Realm, and in this was found its blessedness: in health and joy. For in Aman no creatures suffered any sickness or disorder of their natures; nor was there any decay or ageing more swift than the the slow ageing of Arda itself. So that all things coming at last to fullness of form and virtue remained in that state, blissfully, ageing and wearying of their life and being no swifter than the Valar themselves. And this blessing was granted also to the Eldar. On Earth the Quendi suffered no sickness, and the health of their bodies was supported by the might of the longeval FEAR. But their bodies, being of the stuff of Arda, were nonetheless not so enduring as their spirits; for the longevity of the Quendi was derived primarily from their FEAR, whose nature or 'doom' was to abide in Arda until its end. Therefore, after the vitality of the HROA was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling FEA, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away. Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the FEA as it were consumed the HROA until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it. But in Aman, since its blessing descended upon the HROAR of the Eldar, as upon all other bodies, the HROAR aged only apace with the FEAR, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension. [Section on Men in Aman deleted -- they'll die, die quickly, and might become zombie-like creatures.] Notes: 1 The number III and a further title THE MARRING OF MEN (the other titles remaining) was given to the second part, while AMAN was numbered II. No writing numbered I is found. 2 It will be seen that, as a consequence of the transformation of the 'cosmogonic myth', a wholly new conception of the 'Valian Year' had entered. The elaborate computation of Time in the ANNALS OF AMAN (see pp. 49-51, 59-60) was based on the 'cycle' of the Two Trees that had ceased to exist in relation to the diurnal movement of the Sun that had come into being -- there was a 'new reckoning'. But the 'Valian Year' is now, as it appears, a 'unit of perception' of the passage of Time of Arda, derived from the capacity of the Valar to perceive at such intervals the process of the ageing of Arda from its beginning to its end. See note 5. 3 My father wrote the following passage ('The could move backward and forward in thought ...') in the body of the manuscript at this point, but in a small italic script, and I have small italic, and I have preserved this form in the text printed; similarly with the following passage that interrupts the main text at the words 'the unit of Valian time'. 4 'we may...use the Valian unit': in other words, presumably, the old structure of dates in the chronicle of Aman may be retained, although the meaning of these dates in terms of Middle-earth will be radically different. See note 5. 5 There is now a vast discrepancy between Valian Years and 'mortal years'; cf. also 'his whole life would last little more than one half-year' (p. 428), 'In the seventh part of a year a Man could be born and become full-grown' (p. 429). In notes not given in this book, in which my father was calculating on this basis the time of the Awakening of Men, he expressly stated that 144 Sun years = 1 Valian Year (in this connection see Appendix D to THE LORD OF THE RINGS: 'It seems clear that the Eldar in Middle-earth ...reckoned in long periods, and the Quenya word YEN ... really means 144 of our years.') Placing the event 'after or about the time of the sack of Utumno, Valian Year 1100' (see pp. 75, 80), a gigantic lapse of time could now be conceived between the 'arising' of Men and their first appearance in Beleriand. The following is taken from the introduction to "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth": While this very remarkable and hitherto unknown work, 'The Debate of Finrod and Andreth', is set at a later time in the history of the Elder Days than is otherwise reached in this book, it should clearly be given here on account of its association, both in date and content, with the writings and revisions of the 'Second Phase' of the post-LORD OF THE RINGS history of THE SILMARILLION. I have thought it best to let it stand as a separate Part in this book rather than include it with the miscellaneous writings in Part Five, since unlike those it is a major and finished work, and is referred to elsewhere as if it had for my father more 'authority'. Christopher suggests that the "Athrabeth" was written in late 1959, after "Laws and Customs among the Eldar", which Christopher believes was written in the late 1950s (probably 1958-9). He assigns these works to what he calls "the Second Phase", the "First Phase" consisting of work begun in the late 1940s and carried through to about the time of the publication of THE LORD OF THE RINGS (1954). It is clear from Christopher's explanation of "Myths Transformed", his discussion of the placement of the essay in MORGOTH'S RING (and suggestion that it belongs properly with "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth", which is also severed from the rest of the material in the book), and the notes that the assignment of 144 Years of the Sun to 1 Valian Year made here is inappropriately attached to the "mythology" comprised of THE LORD OF THE RINGS and the (then) unpublished SILMARILLION. The arising of Men was never changed in the "canon" -- they awoke with the first rising of the Sun, and not in some dim, distant period long before the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth. Hence, it is completely inappropriate, when speaking of the histories pertaining to THE LORD OF THE RINGS, THE SILMARILLION, THE HOBBIT, UNFINISHED TALES, and associated works, to argue that a Valian Year lasted 144 years of the Sun. Such an assignment is based upon an invalid assertion which has relevance only in the proposed but never finished revision of the mythology. As far as the published mythology goes, the only authoritative explanation of Valian Years is provided in "The Annals of Aman" section of MORGOTH'S RING (Part One), in the essay titled "Of the Beginning of Time and its Reckoning", and the associated note 17 which provides an earlier passage for section 10. I cite here only section 10 and note 17: $10 It is computed by the lore-masters that the Valar came to the realm of Arda, which is the Earth, five thousand Valian Years ere the first rising of the Moon, which is as much to say forty-seven thousands and nine hundred and one of our years. Of these, three thousands and five hundred (or thirty-three thousand five hundred and thirty of our reckoning) passed ere the measurement of time first known to the Eldar began with the flowering of the Trees. Those were the Days before days. Thereafter one thousand and four hundred and five and ninety Valian Years (or fourteen thousand of our years and three hundred and twenty-two) followed during which the Light of the Trees shone in Valinor. Those were the Days of Bliss. In those days, in the Year one thousand and fifty of the Valar, the Elves awoke in Kuivienen and the First Age of the Children of Iluvatar began. [17] Note 17 reads: 17 Paragraph $10 had this form in the draft text for the beginning of AAm: It hath been computed by the Masters of Lore that the Valar came to the Kingdom of Arda, which is this Earth, five and forty thousand years of our time ere the first rising of the Moon. And of these thirty thousand passed ere the measurement of Time began with the flowering of the Trees. These were the Days before Days. And fifteen thousand years followed after during which the Light of the Trees yet lived, and nigh on six hundred more of the New Sun and Moon after the slaying of the Trees. And these are called the Elder Days, and with their ending ended the First Age of Time, and Melkor was thrust from the world. Thus wheeras in AV 1 and AV 2 [Annals of Valinor 1, Annals of Valinor 2] the reckoning was thus (V.Y. = Valian Year(s), S.Y. = Sun Year(s)): V.Y. 1000 = S.Y. 10000 First flowering of the Trees V.Y. 3000 = S.Y. 30000 Rising of the Moon this first revision gives: S.Y. 30000 First flowering of the Trees S.Y. 45000 Rising of the Moon This reckoning was then replaced again: V.Y. 3500 = S.Y. 35530 First flowering of the Trees V.Y. 5300 = S.Y. 50775 Rising of the Moon These figures show a ratio of 1 V.Y. = 9.58 S.Y. (see the commentary on $$5-10, pp. 59-60). This last reckoning was then changed many times to give the text printed. The commentary referred to goes thus: $$5-10 The account of the Reckoning of Time is at first sight somewhat baffling, but it can be clarified. (i) ACCORDING TO THE RECKONING BY THE TREES 12 hours (a full flowering of both Trees) = 1 day 1000 days (12000 hours) = 1 year 100 years = 1 age of the Valar (as the Valar reckoned the ages before the Trees, according to a supposition of the Loremasters of the Elves; see notes 7 and 8 to the text) (ii) RELATION OF THE RECKONING BY THE TREES TO THE RECKONING BY THE SUN 1 hour of the Trees = 7 hours of our time 1 day of the Trees = (7 x 12) 84 hours of our time 1 year of the Trees = (7 x 12000) 84000 hours of our time There are (365.25 x 24) 8766 hours in a Sun Year, and thus: 1 year of the Trees = (84000 / 8766) 9.582 Sun Years (iii) ORIGINAL INTENTION OF THE VALAR FOR THE NEW RECKONING BY THE SUN AND MOON 12 hours of moonlight }___ 24 hours = 1 full day 12 hours of sunlight } 700 times of sunlight and moonlight = 350 full days = 1 Sun Year 1 hour = 1/7 of 1 hour of the Trees Therefore: 1 Sun Year would have (24 x 350) 8400 hours = (8400 / 7) 1200 hours of the Trees = 1/10 of a Valian Year (see (i) above); thus 1 Valian Year would = 10 Sun Years The matter can be expressed more concisely thus: 1 year of the Trees = (7 x 12000) 84000 hours of our time 84000 / (350 x 24) 8400 = 10 but 84000 / (365.25 x 24) 8766 = 9.582 (iv) THE DATES OF THE FIRST FLOWERING OF THE TREES AND THE FIRST RISING OF THE MOON ($10) The Trees first flowered after 3500 Valian Years had pased, which is said to be equal to 33530 Sun Years (this presupposes an equivalence of 9.58; 9.582 gives 33537). The Moon first rose after 5000 Valian Years had passed, which is said to be equal to 47901 Sun Years (this presupposes an equivalence of 9.5802; if the equivalence is 9.582 the number of Sun Years would be 47910, if 9.58 the number would be 47900). The Trees shown for 1495 Valian Years, which is asid to be equal to 14322 Sun Years (this presupposes an equivalence of almost exactly 9.58). The original discussion of the Eldarin year prepared for the Appendices in THE LORD OF THE RINGS used a value of 100 years (of the Sun) for the Eldarin YEN, and stated specifically that they reckoned time in terms of centuries. The calculations are complex (and detailed in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH -- I don't wish to cite all that stuff here at this time). In any event, what was eventually published was: It seems clear that the Eldar in Middle-earth, who had, as Samwise remarked, more time at their disposal, reckoned in long periods, and the Quenya word YEN, often translated 'year' (I. 394), really means 144 of our years. The Eldar preferred to reckon in sixes and twelves as far as possible. A 'day' of the sun they called RE and reckoned from sunset to sunset. The YEN contained 52596 days. For ritual rather than practical purposes the Eldar observed a week or ENQUIE of six days; and the YEN contained 8766 of these ENQUIER, reckoned continuously throughout the period. In Middle-earth the Eldar also observed a short period or solar year, called a CORONAR or 'sun-round' when considered more or less astronomically, but usually called LOA 'growth' (especially in the north-western lands) when seasonal changes in vegetation were primarily considered, as was usual with the Elves generally. The LOA was broken up into periods that might be regarded as either long months or short seasons. These no doubt varied in different regions; but the Hobbits only provide information concerning the Calendar of Imladris.... The computations required by this system were much simpler than those of the original 1 yen = 100 years of the sun, and the numbers mesh with the "Reckoning of Time" computations as well. Thus we have a demonstrable consistancy between the 1 VY = 9.58 SY identification (and THE LORD OF THE RINGS' calendar systems) and a demonstrable inconsistency between the 1 VY = 144 SY identification (and the LOTR legendarium). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:21:40 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 216 Message-ID: <7p6k3o$j12$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.28 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 934728632 19490 12.79.24.28 (15 Aug 1999 14:50:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 1999 14:50:32 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.alt.net!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com... > Some people have incorrectly stated that a Valian Year > was equivalent to 144 years of the Sun. So far as I am aware this was JRRTs 'final decision' on the matter. Even if it were not I would not consider it 'incorrect' to state such a timeframe as one of the many different versions JRRT considered. At some point in time or another (whether his 'final decision' or earlier) JRRT said that a Valian Year was equivalent to 144 years of the Sun... and thus it is not incorrect to say so in my view. > It will be seen from the citations below that they are > not telling the full story. No, of course not... telling the full story of the many different versions would take an absolutely enormous post; which you have provided. However, even your excellent summary of various versions does not come close to providing the FULL story. Nor could it... for that we would need a complete summation from the earliest ideas to the final analysis delivered by JRRT himself. > In Aman the length of the unit of 'year' was the same as > it was for the Quendi. I quoted this passage as part of the evidence that the year in Aman was the same length as the Quendian 'yen' of 144 Solar years. > In one Valian year the Eldar dwelling there groew and > developed in much the same way as mortals did in one year > upon Middle-earth. In recording the events in Aman, > therefore, we may as did the Eldar themselves use the > Valian unit, [4] though we must not forget that within > any such 'year' the Eldar enjoyed an immense series of > delights and achievements which even the most gifted of > Men could not accomplish in twelve times twelve mortal > years. This 12 * 12 is, of course, 144 and seems to be a clear correlation between one Valian year and 144 'mortal years'. I don't think it unreasonable to assume that 'mortal years' are 'years of the Sun'... and thus have also quoted this passage as further evidence of 1 VY = 144 SY. > On Earth while an elf-child did but grow to be a man or a > woman, in some 3000 years This is interesting as it makes the time for elves to reach their full growth an extremely long period of time. I take the 3000 to be Sun years. Now, if we compare this to the earlier statement that an Elf would grow the same amount in one Valian Year that a Man would in one Solar Year and assume full human growth at 20 Solar Years (for ease in calculating) we get... 3000 / 20 = 150 Solar Years per Valian Year. Close enough to 144 to further support that value... and too far from 9.582 for that to seem a likely figure to be used here. > [Section on Men in Aman deleted -- they'll die, die > quickly, and might become zombie-like creatures.] It is unfortunate that you omitted this as it contains a few other passages which seem to support the figure of 144 years. However, these are provided in the notes below; > Notes: > 4 'we may...use the Valian unit': in other words, > presumably, the old structure of dates in the chronicle > of Aman may be retained, although the meaning of these > dates in terms of Middle-earth will be radically > different. See note 5. If this 'in other words' of CTs is taken to be correct then he is noting a change in the length of the 'Valian unit'. I understand this change to be from 9.582 to 144. > 5 There is now a vast discrepancy between Valian Years > and 'mortal years'; cf. also 'his whole life would last > little more than one half-year' (p. 428), 'In the seventh > part of a year a Man could be born and become full- > grown' (p. 429). A whole human life would last little more than one half of a Valian Year. That'd be 4.791 Solar Years by the old reckoning (far too short) and 72 Solar Years by the new reckoning (about right). Likewise for one seventh of a Valian Year for a person to become full grown. That'd be 1.3 Solar Years old reckoning or 20.5 Solar Years new reckoning... which again only seems to make sense with the 144 Solar Years figure. Hence my earlier view that JRRT did at SOME TIME use this figure and it is thus not, "incorrect". > In notes not given in this book, in which my father was > calculating on this basis the time of the Awakening of > Men, he expressly stated that 144 Sun years = 1 Valian > Year (in this connection see Appendix D to THE LORD OF > THE RINGS: 'It seems clear that the Eldar in Middle-earth > ...reckoned in long periods, and the Quenya word YEN ... > really means 144 of our years.') Placing the event > 'after or about the time of the sack of Utumno, Valian > Year 1100' (see pp. 75, 80), a gigantic lapse of time > could now be conceived between the 'arising' of Men and > their first appearance in Beleriand. And this is the crux of it. If CT is to be believed then his father "expressly stated that 144 Sun years = 1 Valian Year". It is thus not in my view incorrect to claim he did say this. Further note that this change in the time of the arising of Men came from late in the development of the mythology... long after the 9.582 figure was derived. Further, CT refers to this as a "later conception" than the passages using the 9.582 figure. > Christopher suggests that the "Athrabeth" was written in > late 1959, after "Laws and Customs among the Eldar", > which Christopher believes was written in the late > 1950s (probably 1958-9). He assigns these works to what > he calls "the Second Phase", the "First Phase" consisting > of work begun in the late 1940s and carried through to > about the time of the publication of THE LORD OF THE > RINGS (1954). All matches my understanding... which is rather the point. It places this reckoning of time around 1959 while the 144 year figure comes later along with the change for an early awakening of Men. > It is clear from Christopher's explanation of "Myths > Transformed", his discussion of the placement of the > essay in MORGOTH'S RING (and suggestion that it belongs > properly with "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth", which is > also severed from the rest of the material in the book), > and the notes that the assignment of 144 Years of the Sun > to 1 Valian Year made here is inappropriately attached to > the "mythology" comprised of THE LORD OF THE RINGS and > the (then) unpublished SILMARILLION. The arising of Men > was never changed in the "canon" -- they awoke with the > first rising of the Sun, and not in some dim, distant > period long before the return of the Noldor to Middle- > earth. Ok, here we seem to come to the basis of the disagreement. You seem to be saying that because the 144 year figure was conceived after LotR and not in conjunction with it that it is therefor not 'canonical' and can be ignored / it is false; "Some people have incorrectly stated..." I disagree with this premise. If we were to take this view then the 9.582 figure also post-dates LotR (though not by so great a span) and should be considered equally invalid. I agree that 1 Valian Year = 144 Solar Years is not "canon" but beliefe that 9.582 is equally not "canon". NEITHER figure was ever published by JRRT. However, the evidence seems to suggest that he changed his view from the 9.582 to the 144... and thus I consider that his 'more official' decision on the matter. > Hence, it is completely inappropriate, when speaking of > the histories pertaining to THE LORD OF THE RINGS, THE > SILMARILLION, THE HOBBIT, UNFINISHED TALES, and > associated works, to argue that a Valian Year lasted 144 > years of the Sun. Such an assignment is based upon an > invalid assertion which has relevance only in the > proposed but never finished revision of the mythology. Again, I disagree. When those works were being written the period of a Valian Year was not fully defined. In any case you quoted above JRRTs assertion that the old dates could be used with the new unit of 144 years. I do not consider it completely inappropriate to use the same basis of calculation the author did. I'd agree that it might not have been 'final' or 'canonical', but cannot see any way in which to call it 'incorrect' given JRRTs own use of it. Granted, free and clear. At one time JRRT considered a reckoning of 1 Valian Year = 9.582 Solar Years. Further, this reckoning was conceived (obviously, as it was the earlier version) closer to the date of publication of The Hobbit and LotR. It is not however the ONLY reckoning nor a reckoning that JRRT defined as final and complete. > The computations required by this system were much > simpler than those of the original 1 yen = 100 years of > the sun, and the numbers mesh with the "Reckoning of > Time" computations as well. Thus we have a demonstrable > consistancy between the 1 VY = 9.58 SY identification > (and THE LORD OF THE RINGS' calendar systems) and a > demonstrable inconsistency between the 1 VY = 144 SY > identification (and the LOTR legendarium). Here you've lost me. The quotations you provided did not mention Valian Years or time measurement in Aman or any other such matters at all so far as I could discern. So far as I can see they dealt solely with the reckoning of time in Middle Earth. Where do you see support of the 9.58 figure (which did not yet exist as I understand it) and "inconsistency" with the 144 figure? At the end of things we both seem to agree that JRRT used a figure of 9.582 SY early on and 144 SY later. The only difference seems to be that you regard the earlier figure as 'canonical' and I consider both 'non-canonical' but the latter figure to be slightly more appropriate as the more recent view held by JRRT. ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations Date: 15 Aug 1999 16:43:09 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 77 Message-ID: <7p7jad$1gp9@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> <7p6k3o$j12$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37b8ee02.2662336@news.mindspring.com> <37b733d6.23528178@news.usenetserver.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-992.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:41:27 GMT, in article <37b733d6.23528178@news.usenetserver.com>, kern@ac.grin.edu resolved to say for all to read and review: > >On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:48:20 GMT, sonshi57@mindspring.com (Douglas >Henderson) wrote: > >>A logical point: More official from what point of view? Since >>neither was published by Tolkien then the 144-year time period is >>simply "later" than the other, not "more official". > >But if there is to be any discussion using "official" (which begs the >question), "later" has to mean more official or it doesn't make sense. I'm not sure of where this "official" business comes from, but the Valian Years of "The Grey Annals" and "The Annals of Aman" are only equivalent to the approximation of 9.58 years of the Sun. Neither of these works is part of the revisionistic history Tolkien had in mind when he wrote whatever notes Christopher associates with the Aman essay. The only time tables we have which are even close to consistent with the history provided in THE SILMARILLION are those of "The Grey Annals" and "The Annals of Aman". Hence, any discussion of VALIAN YEARS, unless it clearly stipulates that the (mostly unpublished) revisionistic history is being referred to, reasonably must make use of the time tables, and these work with 1 VY = 9.58. Tolkien's statement "in recording the events in Aman, therefore, we may as did the Eldar themselves use the Valian unit" MAY mean he intended to incorporate those time tables into the new history (as Christopher infers), but they do not mean the time tables in their present forms are thus to be subjected to the new formula. Severe problems arise when one attempts to apply the 1 VY = 144 YS equation to "Annals of Aman". These annals record events in Middle-earth, not just events in Aman. And "The Grey Annals" begins in the Years of the Trees, not with the rising of the Sun (or Moon). There is nothing of the proposed revised history in either work. Any argument to use 1 VY = 144 YS for the primary history fails because it's nothing more than a misapplication of an irrelevancy to the historical record. The equation has no place in the published history. It belongs to a largely unwritten and unpublished conception of which Christopher writes ...But now, as will be seen in many of the essays and notes that follow, he had come to believe that such a vast upheaval was a necessity, that the cosmos of the old myth was no longer valid; and at the same time he was impelled to try to cnostruct a more sexure 'theoretical' or 'systematic' basis for elements in the LEGENDARIUM that were not to be dislodged. With their questionings, their certainties giving way to doubt, their contradictory resolutions, these writings are to be read with a sense of intellectual and imaginative stress in the face of such a dismantling and reconstitution, believed to be an inescapable necessity, but never to be achieved. NEVER TO BE ACHIEVED. The history to which 1 VY = 144 YS belongs simply doesn't exist, except in the concepts embodied in the proposals of a few essays and accompanying notes which were never used to rewrite the corpus. And we have no idea of how much revision these concepts would have undergone had the history been achieved after all. The essays don't speak of the cosmos where the Two Trees gave light to Valinor while a darkened world outside awaited the awakening of Men. They don't speak of a Middle-earth where the Elves and Dwarves lived together for the equivalent of millenia, having only Melkor's monsters to share the world with. They speak of a different Middle-earth, a later stage of development which was never truly begun, let alone completed. It is as appropriate to say a Valian Year equals 144 years of the Sun as it is to say that Beren in "The Tale of Tinuviel" is a man, or an Adan even if one were to submit the original (erased and lost) version of the story made him a man rather than one of the Noldoli (see THE BOOK OF LOST TALES, PART ONE, "Commentary on the Tale of Tinuviel"). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: sonshi57@mindspring.com (Douglas Henderson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:48:20 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <37b8ee02.2662336@news.mindspring.com> References: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> <7p6k3o$j12$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.11.06 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 15 Aug 1999 16:36:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:21:40 -0400, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message >news:7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com... SNIP > >Ok, here we seem to come to the basis of the disagreement. >You seem to be saying that because the 144 year figure was >conceived after LotR and not in conjunction with it that it >is therefor not 'canonical' and can be ignored / it is >false; "Some people have incorrectly stated..." > >I disagree with this premise. If we were to take this view >then the 9.582 figure also post-dates LotR (though not by >so great a span) and should be considered equally invalid. >I agree that 1 Valian Year = 144 Solar Years is not "canon" >but beliefe that 9.582 is equally not "canon". NEITHER >figure was ever published by JRRT. However, the evidence >seems to suggest that he changed his view from the 9.582 >to the 144... and thus I consider that his 'more official' >decision on the matter. A logical point: More official from what point of view? Since neither was published by Tolkien then the 144-year time period is simply "later" than the other, not "more official". If he had lived, he might have changed it back or to another figure entirely it seems to me. If the earlier figure was not "fixed" then the later figure was equally not "fixed". SNIP Sindamor Pandaturion ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:22:21 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7p7f05$1j7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> <7p6k3o$j12$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37b8ee02.2662336@news.mindspring.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.201 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 934756165 1639 12.79.22.201 (15 Aug 1999 22:29:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 1999 22:29:25 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Douglas Henderson wrote in message news:37b8ee02.2662336@news.mindspring.com... > A logical point: More official from what point of view? > Since neither was published by Tolkien then the 144-year > time period is simply "later" than the other, not "more > official". If he had lived, he might have changed it > back or to another figure entirely it seems to me. If > the earlier figure was not "fixed" then the later figure > was equally not "fixed". Oh, as I have said more than once... neither figure is canonical or 'fixed' as you put it. However, I do consider the latter number slightly more 'official' because while it is possible to suppose that JRRT >might< have later changed his mind about the 144 year figure, we have evidence that he >did< change his mind about the 9.582 year figure. In effect, the earlier figure seems to have been rejected in favor of the later. Granted, he COULD have changed his mind again... which is why none of it is 'canonical'. ###### From: kern@ac.grin.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations Message-ID: <37b733d6.23528178@news.usenetserver.com> References: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> <7p6k3o$j12$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37b8ee02.2662336@news.mindspring.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:41:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.162.144.94 X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com X-Trace: IRIS 934763977 149.162.144.94 (Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:39:37 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:39:37 PDT Organization: UseNet Server, Inc. http://www.usenetserver.com - Home of the fastest NNTP servers on the Net. Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!europa.netcrusader.net!208.134.240.140!newsfeed.cwix.com!151.142.223.51!WCG!news.randori.com!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!IRIS.POSTED!not-for-mail On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:48:20 GMT, sonshi57@mindspring.com (Douglas Henderson) wrote: >A logical point: More official from what point of view? Since >neither was published by Tolkien then the 144-year time period is >simply "later" than the other, not "more official". But if there is to be any discussion using "official" (which begs the question), "later" has to mean more official or it doesn't make sense. -Chris ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations Date: 15 Aug 1999 21:56:43 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 24 Message-ID: <7p85mb$2avo@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> <7p6k3o$j12$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37b8ee02.2662336@news.mindspring.com> <37b733d6.23528178@news.usenetserver.com> <37B795B5.F8A4E05A@ma.ultranet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-502.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:38:41 -0400, in article <37B795B5.F8A4E05A@ma.ultranet.com>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?E=E4rendil?= resolved to say for all to read and review: >I agree. My fanaticism with Tolkien (meaning, beyond the "fan" stage into >a true "fanatic") only started less than a year ago. I have not yet >gotten time to read his 12-volume series of unpublished works (only >number IV). In my opinion, and, if I had to guess, the opinion of many >others, is that the stories of mythology found in the Silmarillion are >canon, for they are the most recent versions of those stories that >Tolkien ever wrote. It is no use asking "What if he lived longer and >wrote more?" because he *didn't.* In most cases you're correct about THE SILMARILLION representing "the most recent versions" of various stories, but there are exceptions to that rule. And the problems with THE SILMARILLION were not known until Christopher Tolkien published THE HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH. You could rightly say he spoiled the story for many of us, because now we know better. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?E=E4rendil?= the Mariner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:38:41 -0400 Organization: Havens of the River Sirion Lines: 36 Message-ID: <37B795B5.F8A4E05A@ma.ultranet.com> References: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> <7p6k3o$j12$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37b8ee02.2662336@news.mindspring.com> <37b733d6.23528178@news.usenetserver.com> Reply-To: sauron.darklord@bigfoot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: SU9B4RTGSEkhIdHhYILPfBcRTaz/HuFOtA7K9LzehrM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Aug 1999 04:34:57 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Chris Kern wrote: > On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:48:20 GMT, sonshi57@mindspring.com (Douglas > Henderson) wrote: > > >A logical point: More official from what point of view? Since > >neither was published by Tolkien then the 144-year time period is > >simply "later" than the other, not "more official". > > But if there is to be any discussion using "official" (which begs the > question), "later" has to mean more official or it doesn't make sense. > I agree. My fanaticism with Tolkien (meaning, beyond the "fan" stage into a true "fanatic") only started less than a year ago. I have not yet gotten time to read his 12-volume series of unpublished works (only number IV). In my opinion, and, if I had to guess, the opinion of many others, is that the stories of mythology found in the Silmarillion are canon, for they are the most recent versions of those stories that Tolkien ever wrote. It is no use asking "What if he lived longer and wrote more?" because he *didn't.* As George Lucas once quoted another famous filmmaker, "Movies are never finished, they are only abandoned." It is the same with written stories. When the author dies, whether he likes it or not, his stories have reached their end, and all that he wrote is all that he wrote; he thinks up no more ideas, and he writes down no more ideas. Tolkien probably came as close to truly finishing his stories as any mortal ever can. When Tolkien died, so did any future canonical additions to Eä. Therefore, we should respect his latest writings as the most canonical version we have, or ever can, receive from this master of writing. -Earendil ###### From: kern@ac.grin.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations Message-ID: <37b76db8.38348612@news.usenetserver.com> References: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> <7p6k3o$j12$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37b8ee02.2662336@news.mindspring.com> <37b733d6.23528178@news.usenetserver.com> <7p7jad$1gp9@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 19 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 01:49:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.162.144.80 X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com X-Trace: IRIS 934778888 149.162.144.80 (Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:48:08 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:48:08 PDT Organization: UseNet Server, Inc. http://www.usenetserver.com - Home of the fastest NNTP servers on the Net. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.ntr.net!remarQ60!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!IRIS.POSTED!not-for-mail On 15 Aug 1999 16:43:09 -0700, Michael Martinez wrote: >>But if there is to be any discussion using "official" (which begs the >>question), "later" has to mean more official or it doesn't make sense. > >I'm not sure of where this "official" business comes from, but the Valian Years >of "The Grey Annals" and "The Annals of Aman" are only equivalent to the >approximation of 9.58 years of the Sun. Neither of these works is part of the >revisionistic history Tolkien had in mind when he wrote whatever notes >Christopher associates with the Aman essay. True, "later" cannot be the only criterion for determining any "official" information (as I said earlier, it is futile). Often, however, something that was written later could be considered more "official" than something written earlier. -Chris ###### From: kern@ac.grin.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations Message-ID: <37b76e57.38507501@news.usenetserver.com> References: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> <7p6k3o$j12$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37b8ee02.2662336@news.mindspring.com> <7p7f05$1j7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 21 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 01:52:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.162.144.80 X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com X-Trace: IRIS 934779031 149.162.144.80 (Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:50:31 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:50:31 PDT Organization: UseNet Server, Inc. http://www.usenetserver.com - Home of the fastest NNTP servers on the Net. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!IRIS.POSTED!not-for-mail On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:22:21 -0400, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >Oh, as I have said more than once... neither figure is >canonical or 'fixed' as you put it. In reference to the Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals it is "fixed". Tolkien later changed it, but never incorporated the changed years into those works. It's like saying that in the Annals of Aman the Sun was created before the world. A later note says that this happened, but the change was not made to AAm. >However, I do consider >the latter number slightly more 'official' because while it Nothing is absolute when you talk about HoME works. -Chris ###### From: Robert Brady Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations Date: 16 Aug 1999 21:18:03 GMT Organization: Electronics and Computer Science, University of Southampton Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7p9v6b$3dg@wapping.ecs.soton.ac.uk> References: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> <7p6k3o$j12$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37b8ee02.2662336@news.mindspring.com> <37b733d6.23528178@news.usenetserver.com> Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: soolin.ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i686)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!server3.netnews.ja.net!spruce.sucs.soton.ac.uk!wapping.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Chris Kern wrote: >On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:48:20 GMT, sonshi57@mindspring.com (Douglas >Henderson) wrote: >>A logical point: More official from what point of view? Since >>neither was published by Tolkien then the 144-year time period is >>simply "later" than the other, not "more official". >But if there is to be any discussion using "official" (which begs the >question), "later" has to mean more official or it doesn't make sense. The 144-year time period might have been used had Tolkien lived to rewrite the Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals to take this into account. However, the published Silmarillion, was based on versions of these which had not been rewritten. Therefore, if you are taking the Silmarillion as "official", the constituents texts for it have more officalness than ones which were passed over as involving too much work. (CJRT could have, convievably, rewritten the whole of the Silmarillion to be consistent with the "Round Earth" concept as shown in "Myths Transformed". However, he did not, and therefore, in the Silmarillion, the Earth was flat until the Fall of Numenor.) -- Robert (Ancalimon) ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:49:29 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7pafgk$b8p$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> <7p6k3o$j12$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37b8ee02.2662336@news.mindspring.com> <37b733d6.23528178@news.usenetserver.com> <7p9v6b$3dg@wapping.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.135 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 934854996 11545 12.79.24.135 (17 Aug 1999 01:56:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 1999 01:56:36 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Robert Brady wrote in message news:7p9v6b$3dg@wapping.ecs.soton.ac.uk... > The 144-year time period might have been used had Tolkien > lived to rewrite the Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals > to take this into account. However, JRRT indicated that the new 144 year figure could be used with the existing chronology... making it seem that no rewrite was needed or intended. He was just revising his figure for a Valian Year as he had done before. ###### Message-ID: <37B8DB0D.B96BB6@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations References: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> <7p6k3o$j12$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37b8ee02.2662336@news.mindspring.com> <37b733d6.23528178@news.usenetserver.com> <37B795B5.F8A4E05A@ma.ultranet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.44 X-Trace: typ11.nn.bcandid.com 934861283 206.161.15.44 (Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:41:23 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:41:23 EDT Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:46:21 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!gate.bcandid.com.MISMATCH!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Eärendil the Mariner wrote: > > Chris Kern wrote: > > > On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:48:20 GMT, sonshi57@mindspring.com (Douglas > > Henderson) wrote: > > > > >A logical point: More official from what point of view? Since > > >neither was published by Tolkien then the 144-year time period is > > >simply "later" than the other, not "more official". > > > > But if there is to be any discussion using "official" (which begs the > > question), "later" has to mean more official or it doesn't make sense. > > > > I agree. My fanaticism with Tolkien (meaning, beyond the "fan" stage into > a true "fanatic") only started less than a year ago. I have not yet > gotten time to read his 12-volume series of unpublished works (only > number IV). In my opinion, and, if I had to guess, the opinion of many > others, is that the stories of mythology found in the Silmarillion are > canon, for they are the most recent versions of those stories that > Tolkien ever wrote. It is no use asking "What if he lived longer and > wrote more?" because he *didn't.* But he did write more than got into the Silmarillion, including a few things that represent a later stage of his thought. They were left out, not because they didn't exist, and not because Tolkien didn't want them there, but simply because they were incomplete. ###### From: kern@ac.grin.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Valian Years -- Fuller Citations Message-ID: <37b8af65.26743953@news.usenetserver.com> References: <7p5hcn$1skb@drn.newsguy.com> <7p6k3o$j12$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37b8ee02.2662336@news.mindspring.com> <37b733d6.23528178@news.usenetserver.com> <7p9v6b$3dg@wapping.ecs.soton.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 12 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 00:40:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.162.144.91 X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com X-Trace: IRIS 934861139 149.162.144.91 (Mon, 16 Aug 1999 20:38:59 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 20:38:59 PDT Organization: UseNet Server, Inc. http://www.usenetserver.com - Home of the fastest NNTP servers on the Net. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!news-out.supernews.com.MISMATCH!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news-in.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!IRIS.POSTED!not-for-mail On 16 Aug 1999 21:18:03 GMT, Robert Brady wrote: >>But if there is to be any discussion using "official" (which begs the >>question), "later" has to mean more official or it doesn't make sense. Yes, I retract this statement. -Chris