From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?E=E4rendil?= the Mariner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Reincarnation? Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:15:07 -0400 Organization: Havens of the River Sirion Lines: 18 Message-ID: <37B05E18.EEBA72F8@ma.ultranet.com> Reply-To: sauron.darklord@bigfoot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: WbX7ibGomdOlf83idQckSF1WHAEWbqC+TSJgPG8kN/Q= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Aug 1999 17:11:45 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail I haven't read enough of Tolkien's works to know some of the little quirks of his universe. In my time reading this newsgroup, i have encountered a substantial number of references to Glorfindel's reincarnation, from the one who died in a duel with a Balrog at the fall of Gondolin, to the one who was at Rivendell in FotR. I would be very interested to know about anything Tolkien wrote about reicarnation in his world. It is clear he did this with the higher beings, such as the ability for a fallen Gandalf the Grey to return as Gandalf the White, but what was the method for reincarnating elves? Were they just taken from the halls of Mandos and put back in Middle-earth? Why would the Valar do this? Could the same be done for men? If Tolkien answers these questions anywhere, and anyone knows the answers, please respond. -Earendil ###### Message-ID: <37B064E9.6F77C57D@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: RE: Reincarnation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 8 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:44:09 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 934307396 24.128.99.214 (Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:49:56 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:49:56 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Earendil, Tolkien touches on this subject in "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" in the HOME vol. 'Morgoth's Ring'. Cheers, Cian ###### Message-ID: <37B068D6.3B32F47A@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:00:54 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 934308402 24.128.99.214 (Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:06:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:06:42 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!nntp.abs.net!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Hail Earendil, With respect to this subject concerning Glorfindel: From 'Last Writings' in POME. After the death of Glorfindel in the Silmarillion: 'He then became a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in companionship with the Maiar.' Tolkien then goes on to say that Glorfindel's spiritual power was greatly enhanced by his self sacrifice in the Gondolin retreat, and is 'best supposed' to have returned during the SA, before the shadow fell on Numenor, probably for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond. Cian ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation? Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:14:32 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 43 Message-ID: <7opqd6$eq7$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <37B05E18.EEBA72F8@ma.ultranet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-f108.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 934309094 15175 195.167.116.108 (10 Aug 1999 18:18:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Aug 1999 18:18:14 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Eärendil the Mariner wrote in message news:37B05E18.EEBA72F8@ma.ultranet.com... > I haven't read enough of Tolkien's works to know some of the little > quirks of his universe. In my time reading this newsgroup, i have > encountered a substantial number of references to Glorfindel's > reincarnation, from the one who died in a duel with a Balrog at the fall > of Gondolin, to the one who was at Rivendell in FotR. > > I would be very interested to know about anything Tolkien wrote about > reicarnation in his world. It is clear he did this with the higher > beings, such as the ability for a fallen Gandalf the Grey to return as > Gandalf the White, but what was the method for reincarnating elves? Were > they just taken from the halls of Mandos and put back in Middle-earth? I believe Tolkien's final ideas on the topic were the following: The fea (the immortal spirit) of each elf held within it the perfect memory of its hroa (the body). Therefore with the help of the Valar it could rebuild its body after which it could go back to dwell to Valinor (or in Glorfindel's case return to Middle-earth) as a living elf once again. > Why would the Valar do this? Because it helped redress atleast partly the evil of their death? Why wouldn't they? >Could the same be done for men? No. The spirits of men unlike those of the elves depart from the world. That's the "real" death of which the elves knew nothing before they met Beor. This death is the gift of the Iluvatar to humans which even the Valar will finally come to envy, and the Valar have no power to withhold it from humans. The only time a man was allowed to be "reincarnated" and return to Middle-earth is Beren especially allowed by Iluvatar. ("For men are not machines that breed other machines after the fashion of Sauron; and to each a special fate is given and he may be an exception to that which is a rule for all others", quoting "The Lost Road" from memory.) Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation? Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:41:34 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 32 Message-ID: <7oqjh8$23a$5@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <37B05E18.EEBA72F8@ma.ultranet.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.7 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 934334824 2154 12.79.24.7 (11 Aug 1999 01:27:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Aug 1999 01:27:04 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Eärendil the Mariner wrote in message news:37B05E18.EEBA72F8@ma.ultranet.com... > I would be very interested to know about anything Tolkien > wrote about reicarnation in his world. It is clear he did > this with the higher beings, such as the ability for a > fallen Gandalf the Grey to return as Gandalf the White, > but what was the method for reincarnating elves? Were > they just taken from the halls of Mandos and put back in > Middle-earth? Why would the Valar do this? Could the same > be done for men? Ok, there were a couple of different versions of this but essentially he seems to have rejected the idea that they would be born again to their descendants or somesuch and opted instead for them to somehow 'reclothe themselves' in bodily form during their recuperation in the Halls of Mandos. This was not something the Valar did, but a natural part of being Elven in Middle-Earth. As to whether the same could be done for men... apparently yes, as this seems to be a fairly good description of what happened to Beren. He died, his spirit went to the Halls, and before he could go on Luthien showed up and convinced everyone to give him another body for a while. Note that when the Elves reincarnate they apparently always do so in the West and thus Glorfindel was a special case in returning after his death. As I recall alot of the info on this was in Morgoth's Ring if you want a good source for that particular topic. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Subject: Re: Reincarnation? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: harper.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) References: <37B05E18.EEBA72F8@ma.ultranet.com> <7oqjh8$23a$5@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:40:17 GMT Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.174.5.49!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" : > [Tolkien] opted instead for them to somehow 'reclothe themselves' in > bodily form during their recuperation in the Halls of Mandos. This > was not something the Valar did, but a natural part of being Elven > in Middle-Earth. I've yet to find the source of this again (could you post a specific reference?), but I could have sworn that there was a comment to the effect that while re-embodiment was natural for them, the Elves could not achieve it on their own without the help of the Valar (why wouldn't they reform themselves in Middle-earth if they could do it themselves? We're told that the Elves _could_ refuse the summons to Mandos after they died--in _Morgoth's Ring_, I think). The Valar's role, then, was to help the Noldor to achieve their natural purpose. > As I recall alot of the info on this was in Morgoth's Ring > if you want a good source for that particular topic. In addition to this, specifics on Glorfindel (which naturally touch on the wider issues here as well) can be found in the final section of _The Peoples of Middle-earth_. Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation? Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:53:17 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 53 Message-ID: <7ovqmq$hh$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <37B05E18.EEBA72F8@ma.ultranet.com> <7oqjh8$23a$5@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.34 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 934506010 561 12.79.23.34 (13 Aug 1999 01:00:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Aug 1999 01:00:10 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Steuard Jensen wrote in message news:FGBwn6.53o@midway.uchicago.edu... > I've yet to find the source of this again (could you post > a specific reference?) "In what appears to be a second thought my father then asked whether it might not be possible that the 'houseless' fea was itself allowed (being instructed) to rebuild its hroa from its memory (and this, as appears from very late writing on the subject of the reincarnation of Glorfindel of Gondolin, became his firm and stable view of the matter). He wrote here: 'Memory by a fea of experience is evidently powerful, vivid and complete. So the underlying conception is that "matter" will be taken up into "spirit", by becoming part of its knowledge - and so rendered timeless and under the spirit's command.'" MR, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth pg 364 However, in following this up I eventually recalled; "My discussion of this matter in X.364 must be corrected. I said there that the idea that the 'houseless' fea was enabled to rebuild its hroa from its memory became my 'fathers firm and stable view of the matter', 'as appears from very late writing on the subject of the reincarnation of Glorfindel of Gondolin'. This is erroneous. This last discussion of Elvish reincarnation refers only to the 'restoration' or 'reconstitution' of the former body by the Valar, and makes no mention of the idea that it could be achieved by the 'houseless fea' operating of itself." PoME, Last Writings pg 391 > but I could have sworn that there was a comment to the > effect that while re-embodiment was natural for them, the > Elves could not achieve it on their own without the help > of the Valar Yes, there were many statements to this effect... but at one point CT believed these had been overridden by the 'self embodying' viewpoint. On later analysis he seems to have decided that this interpretation need not be an 'absolute truth'. > We're told that the Elves _could_ refuse the summons to > Mandos after they died--in _Morgoth's Ring_, I think). > The Valar's role, then, was to help the Noldor to achieve > their natural purpose. In the end this seems to be one of the many issues where we have contradictory ideas from JRRT and no apparent final decision.