From: "Thomas Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Orcs and Elves Lines: 4 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.161.31 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 934023702 212.151.161.31 (Sat, 07 Aug 1999 13:01:42 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 13:01:42 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-259523@d212-151-161-31.swipnet.se Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 13:00:59 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail I have this feeling that I've read somewhere in the Silmarillion that Orcs were bred from captured Elves. ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: 7 Aug 1999 10:09:22 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 17 Message-ID: <7ohp82$2f7j@drn.newsguy.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-782.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!209.155.56.21!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 13:00:59 +0200, in article , "Thomas resolved to say for all to read and review: > >I have this feeling that I've read somewhere in the Silmarillion that Orcs >were bred from captured Elves. THE SILMARILLION records the speculation that the Orcs were bred from Elves Morgoth captured before the War of the Powers (which the Valar waged against Morgoth after Orome discovered them living in/near Cuivienen). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 10:52:14 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 15 Message-ID: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.218 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 934037930 5717 12.79.56.218 (7 Aug 1999 14:58:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 1999 14:58:50 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.icl.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!newspump.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Thomas Lind wrote in message news:qmUq3.3699$i%3.6232@nntpserver.swip.net... > I have this feeling that I've read somewhere in the > Silmarillion that Orcs were bred from captured Elves. You likely did, though it is there presented as a 'belief' rather than fact. Elsewhere in his notes JRRT stated alternatively that this was definitely the case, that they were actually automatons of a sort, that they were of purely human ancestry, that they were of mixed origins, and any number of other theories. In short, there is no 'definitive' answer. ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?E=E4rendil?= the Mariner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 12:30:47 -0400 Organization: Havens of the River Sirion Lines: 17 Message-ID: <37AC5F34.2D0E6DAC@ma.ultranet.com> References: Reply-To: sauron.darklord@bigfoot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 5JWBk5J70LAiX6EHAgwxt/Q+pEomSTFV7pMwbbFCxgM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 1999 16:27:24 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a cetainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is helf true by the wise of Ressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the Beginning: so say the wise." Thomas Lind wrote: > I have this feeling that I've read somewhere in the Silmarillion that Orcs > were bred from captured Elves. ###### From: ephebe22@aol.com (ryan k) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 07 Aug 1999 16:28:57 GMT References: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990807122857.24132.00009111@ng-fw1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Conrad: >You likely did, though it is there presented >as a 'belief' rather than fact. Elsewhere in >his notes JRRT stated alternatively that >this was definitely the case, that they were >actually automatons of a sort, that they >were of purely human ancestry, that they >were of mixed origins, and any number of >other theories. In short, there is no >'definitive' answer. I think this raises an interesting question. I don't know the publishing history of Tolkien's works, except that there has been a great deal published posthumously by his estate. Are these later writings "canonical?" His notes give an inkling of his thought process, but he didn't publish his notes. Did he intend to? Wasn't the story as published the definitive answer? ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 18:33:35 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <7oicku$1u7$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.3 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 934065630 1991 12.79.22.3 (7 Aug 1999 22:40:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 1999 22:40:30 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Thomas Lind wrote in message news:Fj2r3.4160$i%3.6295@nntpserver.swip.net... > Human are hardly true. Orcs were presented in the > Silmarillion before humans were. The published Silmarillion is only a compilation of different versions of the many texts JRRT wrote with editorial modifications. What final decision JRRT may have made is impossible to guess. However, in the versions where he gave the Orcs a human ancestry he pushed the Awakening of Mankind back earlier to allow time for Melkor to breed them and bring them West ahead of the slow spread of humanity. ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: 7 Aug 1999 20:25:17 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 27 Message-ID: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7oicku$1u7$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19990807214830.22914.00003442@ngol05.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-995.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On 08 Aug 1999 01:48:30 GMT, in article <19990807214830.22914.00003442@ngol05.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com resolved to say for all to read and review: > >The first time we see men are when the Edain enter Beleriand. This is only 350 >years or so after the first of the Battles of Beleriand. We do not know from >the Silmarillion how long Man had been in east before they moved west adn how >long it took them to migrate west. There could easily have been time for >Morgoth to capture men and breed them into orcs. The published SILMARILLION says that Men awoke with the first rising of the Sun. They could not (in that conception) have been the breeding stock used for the first Orcs, but Morgoth was not thus left with only Elves to choose from. As Tolkien himself considered years later, the Orcs could have been bred from fallen Maiar. The published SILMARILLION makes no definitive statement about where the Orcs came from, but it strongly implies they were bred from captured Elves, retaining a tradition which Tolkien eventually came to dislike. He felt the Elves were too spiritually elevated to be so pervertable (although he apparently had no problem with the Ainur becoming Orcs, or with the Elves stooping to murder, rape, and other Orcish behaviors). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 22:49:14 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 60 Message-ID: <7oi2qp$1q8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19990807122857.24132.00009111@ng-fw1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-f091.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 934055577 1864 195.167.116.91 (7 Aug 1999 19:52:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 1999 19:52:57 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail ryan k wrote in message news:19990807122857.24132.00009111@ng-fw1.aol.com... > Conrad: > >You likely did, though it is there presented >as a 'belief' rather than fact. > Elsewhere in >his notes JRRT stated alternatively that >this was definitely the > case, that they were >actually automatons of a sort, that they >were of purely > human ancestry, that they >were of mixed origins, and any number of >other > theories. In short, there is no > >'definitive' answer. > > I think this raises an interesting question. I don't know the publishing > history of Tolkien's works, except that there has been a great deal published > posthumously by his estate. Are these later writings "canonical?" His notes > give an inkling of his thought process, but he didn't publish his notes. Did > he intend to? Wasn't the story as published the definitive answer? Define "canonical". People may choose to discuss Tolkien's universe as was published in 'The Hobbit', 'The Lord of the Rings' and 'The Silmarillion'. That would include some things which Tolkien never wrote (as the Nauglamir situation in The Silmarillion) and exclude many things which he did write. Or we can choose to discuss Tolkien's universe as he intended it to be. That included 'The Hobbit', 'The Lord of the Rings' and many of his later writings including those which finally formed 'The Silmarillion'. (But we can't be certain which of his writings he would revise and which he would keep - therefore this remains a question without answer - or better yet with a thousand different answers.) The only works therefore which we know are 'canon' is 'The Hobbit' and 'Lord of the Rings'. All else are questionable. What I consider 'canon' (meaning part of Tolkien's universe). Simply 'The Hobbit' 'Lord of the Rings', almost all of the Silmarillion (including the death of Thingol as described) except a couple details I don't really like and I think should be revised, many of his writings based solely on the criterion of whether *I* like them. (I don't like the Emin-Tatya-Enel story for example therefore it's not canon for me- it's Ingwe who was the first who wakened and regardless of what Tolkien later decided, Ingwe Finwe, Elwe and Olwe all awoke rather than were born.) But this is not the concept of 'canon' as most people understand it. Therefore it may be better for us to restrain ourselves to discuss either the minimum possible (Hobbit and LoTR) or the vaguest possible (what Tolkien intended) or perhaps what each of us thinks the best possible (our ideas of what's best for the story) And perhaps we should make a clear distinction between the three. Aris Katsaris ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?E=E4rendil?= the Mariner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 00:14:34 -0400 Organization: Havens of the River Sirion Lines: 57 Message-ID: <37AD0428.23A579FF@ma.ultranet.com> References: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19990807122857.24132.00009111@ng-fw1.aol.com> <7oi2qp$1q8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Reply-To: sauron.darklord@bigfoot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: QVXxwD5dBIlmD3L1K57cMKHs9WgneW1dbHD2sw4hG+c= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 1999 04:11:16 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail You bring up an interesting point. As one example, Melkor was originally chained for nine ages, then for seven, and, in the published version of the "Silmarillion", three. Originally, an "age" was 100 Valian years, or 1000 sun-years. However, changing from nine to three, the time allotted for Melkor's chaining would not have fit with the plot well. Therefore, Tolkien's idea of an "age" must have changed. Tolkien's intents for his Universe were constantly in motion. The Silmarillion just happens to be one draft of his writings. In the case of Orcs and Elves, I believe Treebeard said in TT that Trolls were made in mockery of Ents, just as *Orcs were made in mockery of Elves*. If we take only the Hobbit and LotR to be canon, then we should accept this, and not try to pry any deeper into the matter. -Earendil Aris Katsaris wrote: > > Define "canonical". > > People may choose to discuss Tolkien's universe as was published in 'The > Hobbit', 'The Lord of the Rings' and 'The Silmarillion'. That would include > some things which Tolkien never wrote (as the Nauglamir situation in The > Silmarillion) and exclude many things which he did write. > > Or we can choose to discuss Tolkien's universe as he intended it to be. That > included 'The Hobbit', 'The Lord of the Rings' and many of his later > writings including those which finally formed 'The Silmarillion'. (But we > can't be certain which of his writings he would revise and which he would > keep - therefore this remains a question without answer - or better yet > with a thousand different answers.) > > The only works therefore which we know are 'canon' is 'The Hobbit' and 'Lord > of the Rings'. All else are questionable. > > What I consider 'canon' (meaning part of Tolkien's universe). Simply 'The > Hobbit' 'Lord of the Rings', almost all of the Silmarillion (including the > death of Thingol as described) except a couple details I don't really like > and I think should be revised, many of his writings based solely on the > criterion of whether *I* like them. (I don't like the Emin-Tatya-Enel story > for example therefore it's not canon for me- it's Ingwe who was the first > who wakened and regardless of what Tolkien later decided, Ingwe Finwe, Elwe > and Olwe all awoke rather than were born.) > > But this is not the concept of 'canon' as most people understand it. > > Therefore it may be better for us to restrain ourselves to discuss either > the minimum possible (Hobbit and LoTR) or the vaguest possible (what Tolkien > intended) or perhaps what each of us thinks the best possible (our ideas of > what's best for the story) And perhaps we should make a clear distinction > between the three. > > Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Thomas Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.231.150 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 934064485 212.151.231.150 (Sun, 08 Aug 1999 00:21:25 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 00:21:25 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-259523@d212-151-231-150.swipnet.se Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 00:20:43 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Human are hardly true. Orcs were presented in the Silmarillion before humans were. Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message news:7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net... > Thomas Lind wrote in message > news:qmUq3.3699$i%3.6232@nntpserver.swip.net... > > > I have this feeling that I've read somewhere in the > > Silmarillion that Orcs were bred from captured Elves. > > You likely did, though it is there presented as a 'belief' > rather than fact. Elsewhere in his notes JRRT stated > alternatively that this was definitely the case, that they > were actually automatons of a sort, that they were of > purely human ancestry, that they were of mixed origins, and > any number of other theories. In short, there is no > 'definitive' answer. > > ###### From: "Thomas Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37AC5F34.2D0E6DAC@ma.ultranet.com> Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.231.150 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 934064720 212.151.231.150 (Sun, 08 Aug 1999 00:25:20 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 00:25:20 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-259523@d212-151-231-150.swipnet.se Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 00:24:39 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Thank you! Eärendil the Mariner wrote in message news:37AC5F34.2D0E6DAC@ma.ultranet.com... > "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a > cetainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has > explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is helf true by the > wise of Ressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of > Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of > cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous > race of Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards > the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of > the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the > semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the > Ainulindale before the Beginning: so say the wise." > > Thomas Lind wrote: > > > I have this feeling that I've read somewhere in the Silmarillion that Orcs > > were bred from captured Elves. > ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 08 Aug 1999 01:48:30 GMT References: <7oicku$1u7$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990807214830.22914.00003442@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7oicku$1u7$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> Human are hardly true. Orcs were presented in the >> Silmarillion before humans were. > >The published Silmarillion is only a compilation of >different versions of the many texts JRRT wrote with >editorial modifications. What final decision JRRT may >have made is impossible to guess. However, in the versions >where he gave the Orcs a human ancestry he pushed the >Awakening of Mankind back earlier to allow time for Melkor >to breed them and bring them West ahead of the slow spread >of humanity. > The first time we see men are when the Edain enter Beleriand. This is only 350 years or so after the first of the Battles of Beleriand. We do not know from the Silmarillion how long Man had been in east before they moved west adn how long it took them to migrate west. There could easily have been time for Morgoth to capture men and breed them into orcs. Russ ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 07:07:28 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 50 Message-ID: <7ojopv$9hh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19990807122857.24132.00009111@ng-fw1.aol.com> <7oi2qp$1q8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <37AD0428.23A579FF@ma.ultranet.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.193 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 934110847 9777 12.79.23.193 (8 Aug 1999 11:14:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 1999 11:14:07 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Eärendil the Mariner wrote in message news:37AD0428.23A579FF@ma.ultranet.com... > However, changing from nine to three, the time allotted > for Melkor's chaining would not have fit with the plot > well. Therefore, Tolkien's idea of an "age" must have > changed. It apparently did (according to various references, notably in Morgoth's Ring) to 144 years of the Sun per Valian Year and roughly 3000 years of the Sun per 'age'. > In the case of Orcs and Elves, I believe Treebeard said > in TT that Trolls were made in mockery of Ents, just as > *Orcs were made in mockery of Elves*. If we take only the > Hobbit and LotR to be canon, then we should accept this, > and not try to pry any deeper into the matter. Alright, but I do not believe accepting this gives us any definitive answer; These things could easily be made in "mockery of" Elves and Ents without being made FROM Elves or Ents. It is notable that in none of his later notes and considerations on the matter does JRRT suggest that Trolls might have been bred from Ents (he does make the Elf to Orc connection however). He also disavows Treebeard's lore in a number of places, including a specific reference to this passage in Letters; "Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Orcs. He says he 'made' them in COUNTERFEIT of certain creatures pre-existing. There is, to me, a wide gulf between the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's statement could (in my world) have possibly been true. It is NOT true actually of the Orcs - who are fundamentally a race of 'rational incarnate' creatures, though horribly corrupted, if no more so than many Men to be met today. Treebeard is a CHARACTER in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. ... I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits', and hence (...) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested." JRRT, Letters #153 ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 11:13:23 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7ojee1$7sp$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19990807122857.24132.00009111@ng-fw1.aol.com> <7oi2qp$1q8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <37AD0428.23A579FF@ma.ultranet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-e031.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 934100225 8089 195.167.118.159 (8 Aug 1999 08:17:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 1999 08:17:05 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Eärendil the Mariner wrote in message news:37AD0428.23A579FF@ma.ultranet.com... > In the case of Orcs and Elves, I believe Treebeard said in TT that Trolls were > made in mockery of Ents, just as *Orcs were made in mockery of Elves*. If we > take only the Hobbit and LotR to be canon, then we should accept this, and not > try to pry any deeper into the matter. Not really, not by a long way. Canon is that Treebeard believed it. He may have only been guessing or have been misinformed. Even in the published Silmarillion this theory was only proposed as a theory. Aris Katsaris ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: 08 Aug 1999 22:09:55 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 32 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6u4siaf2zw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19990807122857.24132.00009111@ng-fw1.aol.com> <7oi2qp$1q8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <37AD0428.23A579FF@ma.ultranet.com> <7ojopv$9hh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <%bjr3.37172$8D2.6874@news.rdc1.il.home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "Ron Kittle" writes: > > The following paragraph from the SIL is what I have always read to be the > most likely origin of Orcs. > > 'Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi > who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in After already 3 posters quoting this part, here the other one from Silm (out of the "Of the Sindar" chapter) that no one has quoted: ------ After ere long the evil creatures came even to Beleriand ... ... and among them were the Orcs, ... ... Whence they came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari who had become evil and savage in the wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said. ------ IMHO that "it is said" is not JRRT speaking, but rather Christopher who, while piecing togehter the Silm, is equally confused be what he read in the various writings of his father. So if he does not know, then we surely have no chance to come to any other conclusion, that that it is impossible to decide what JRRT would have finally thought on this. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 08 Aug 1999 19:16:48 GMT References: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990808151648.21498.00004790@ngol04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com>, Michael Martinez writes: >>The first time we see men are when the Edain enter Beleriand. This is only >350 >>years or so after the first of the Battles of Beleriand. We do not know >from >>the Silmarillion how long Man had been in east before they moved west adn >how >>long it took them to migrate west. There could easily have been time for >>Morgoth to capture men and breed them into orcs. > >The published SILMARILLION says that Men awoke with the first rising of the >Sun. >They could not (in that conception) have been the breeding stock used for the >first Orcs, but Morgoth was not thus left with only Elves to choose from. As >Tolkien himself considered years later, the Orcs could have been bred from >fallen Maiar. The published SILMARILLION makes no definitive statement about >where the Orcs came from, but it strongly implies they were bred from >captured >Elves, retaining a tradition which Tolkien eventually came to dislike. He >felt >the Elves were too spiritually elevated to be so pervertable (although he >apparently had no problem with the Ainur becoming Orcs, or with the Elves >stooping to murder, rape, and other Orcish behaviors). If that's reliable (i.e. not a CRRT addition) then yes, humans could not have been the raw material for orcs - at least originally. You raise a possible outcome of JRRT's internal debates on the issue - that orcs are derived from the corruption of several sources: maia, elf and man. Russ ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37ae864a.3412223@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19990807122857.24132.00009111@ng-fw1.aol.com> <7oi2qp$1q8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <37AD0428.23A579FF@ma.ultranet.com> <7ojopv$9hh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-47.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 57 Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 07:57:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 934185712 207.212.198.18 (Mon, 09 Aug 1999 01:01:52 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 01:01:52 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Sun, 8 Aug 1999 07:07:28 -0400, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >Eärendil the Mariner wrote in message >news:37AD0428.23A579FF@ma.ultranet.com... > >> However, changing from nine to three, the time allotted >> for Melkor's chaining would not have fit with the plot >> well. Therefore, Tolkien's idea of an "age" must have >> changed. > >It apparently did (according to various references, notably >in Morgoth's Ring) to 144 years of the Sun per Valian Year >and roughly 3000 years of the Sun per 'age'. I'm pretty sure about 144 solar years = 1 Valian year. The Eldarin calendar includes a unit of time called the 'yén', which is equal to 144 'loär' or solar years but is often referred to as a 'year'. Since the Eldar use base 12 mathematics, the most likely length of an 'age' would be some multiple of twelve Valian years. (All the other units of time are, as Tolkien comments, measured in sixes and twelves: the week ('enquë') is six days; the months are either seventy-two or fifty-four days, depending on which month it is; and the aforementioned yén is 144 loär, divided into twelve intervals of twelve for calendar-correction purposes. It's a very elegant system.) If it's going to be around three thousand solar years, I'd suggest 24 or 20(base12) Valian years, which comes out to 3456 or 2000(base12) solar years. That is, each 'age' is the Eldarin equivalent of two millenia. >"Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls >and Orcs. He says he 'made' them in COUNTERFEIT of certain >creatures pre-existing. There is, to me, a wide gulf >between the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's >statement could (in my world) have possibly been true. It >is NOT true actually of the Orcs - who are fundamentally a >race of 'rational incarnate' creatures, though horribly >corrupted, if no more so than many Men to be met today. That is, the Orcs are Children of Ilúvatar. I don't have any specific problem with that, but it seems counterintuitive. >Treebeard is a CHARACTER in my story, not me; and though he >has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of >the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or >understand. ... I am not sure about Trolls. I think they >are mere 'counterfeits', and hence (...) they return to >mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are Tolkien essentially says here that Trolls aren't even sentient beings, that they're robots or puppets or golems or automatons of some kind that don't even have independent life or will. Obviously, this requires some stretching to fit with the stone-troll incident in _The Hobbit_, but we already knew that. Those trolls were somehow intelligent enough to use language. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37ae8a11.4379993@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> <19990808151648.21498.00004790@ngol04.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-47.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 19 Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 08:03:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 934185713 207.212.198.18 (Mon, 09 Aug 1999 01:01:53 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 01:01:53 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On 08 Aug 1999 19:16:48 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >If that's reliable (i.e. not a CRRT addition) then yes, humans could not have >been the raw material for orcs - at least originally. You raise a possible >outcome of JRRT's internal debates on the issue - that orcs are derived from >the corruption of several sources: maia, elf and man. I thought JRRT said (somewhere; I don't have a specific reference) that the Orcs (apparently; this is presented as speculation on the part of the Valar and/or the Eldar) were *originally* bred from captured Elves, but that Morgoth *later* bred them with humans and possibly even with lower animals. (Eeewww. Do we need a tilde yet?) Can anyone confirm this? If so, it would certainly explain how creatures as great and incorruptible as the Elves could have been so horribly corrupted, as if the rest of the Silmarillion doesn't provide enough evidence that the Elves aren't as great and incorruptible as they seemed to think. ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: 9 Aug 1999 09:23:29 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 30 Message-ID: <7omva1$ij7@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> <19990808151648.21498.00004790@ngol04.aol.com> <37ae8a11.4379993@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-192.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On Mon, 09 Aug 1999 08:03:30 GMT, in article <37ae8a11.4379993@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com resolved to say for all to read and review: > >I thought JRRT said (somewhere; I don't have a specific reference) >that the Orcs (apparently; this is presented as speculation on the >part of the Valar and/or the Eldar) were *originally* bred from >captured Elves, but that Morgoth *later* bred them with humans and >possibly even with lower animals. (Eeewww. Do we need a tilde yet?) You are probably thinking of the various Orc essays published in MORGOTH'S RING, but none of them (as best I can recall) give precisely this sequence of events. >Can anyone confirm this? If so, it would certainly explain how >creatures as great and incorruptible as the Elves could have been so >horribly corrupted, as if the rest of the Silmarillion doesn't provide >enough evidence that the Elves aren't as great and incorruptible as >they seemed to think. The Elves should not be viewed as incorruptible. I don't believe Tolkien ever said they were incorruptible. What he seemed to feel was that they were somehow morally or spiritually stronger than men, and thus less susceptible to corruption. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: 9 Aug 1999 09:26:03 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 42 Message-ID: <7omver$iu7@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19990807122857.24132.00009111@ng-fw1.aol.com> <7oi2qp$1q8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <37AD0428.23A579FF@ma.ultranet.com> <7ojopv$9hh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37ae864a.3412223@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-219.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On Mon, 09 Aug 1999 07:57:16 GMT, in article <37ae864a.3412223@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com resolved to say for all to read and review: > >On Sun, 8 Aug 1999 07:07:28 -0400, "Conrad Dunkerson" > wrote: > >>Eärendil the Mariner wrote in message >>news:37AD0428.23A579FF@ma.ultranet.com... >> >>> However, changing from nine to three, the time allotted >>> for Melkor's chaining would not have fit with the plot >>> well. Therefore, Tolkien's idea of an "age" must have >>> changed. >> >>It apparently did (according to various references, notably >>in Morgoth's Ring) to 144 years of the Sun per Valian Year >>and roughly 3000 years of the Sun per 'age'. > >I'm pretty sure about 144 solar years = 1 Valian year. The Eldarin >calendar includes a unit of time called the 'yén', which is equal to >144 'loär' or solar years but is often referred to as a 'year'. There is only one place where Tolkien speaks of 144 solar years: the Appendix to THE LORD OF THE RINGS. The Valian Years are not the same as the Yen of the Eldarin calendar in Middle-earth. A Valian Year was equated to 9.58 years of the Sun (according to Pengolod in MORGOTH'S RING). An "age" in Tolkien is based on two criteria: its beginning and its end, nothing more. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: Maia Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 21:31:46 +0200 Organization: Vienna University, Austria Lines: 39 Message-ID: <37AF2CA2.DA7D7017@unet.univie.ac.at> References: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> <19990808151648.21498.00004790@ngol04.aol.com> <37ae8a11.4379993@news.pc-intouch.com> <7omva1$ij7@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: unet2-61.univie.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: www.univie.ac.at 934226480 75502 131.130.232.61 (9 Aug 1999 19:21:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 1999 19:21:20 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [de] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!isdnet!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed03.univie.ac.at!news.univie.ac.at!not-for-mail Michael Martinez schrieb: > > On Mon, 09 Aug 1999 08:03:30 GMT, in article > <37ae8a11.4379993@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com resolved to say for > all to read and review: > > > >I thought JRRT said (somewhere; I don't have a specific reference) > >that the Orcs (apparently; this is presented as speculation on the > >part of the Valar and/or the Eldar) were *originally* bred from > >captured Elves, but that Morgoth *later* bred them with humans and > >possibly even with lower animals. (Eeewww. Do we need a tilde yet?) > > You are probably thinking of the various Orc essays published in MORGOTH'S RING, > but none of them (as best I can recall) give precisely this sequence of events. > > >Can anyone confirm this? If so, it would certainly explain how > >creatures as great and incorruptible as the Elves could have been so > >horribly corrupted, as if the rest of the Silmarillion doesn't provide > >enough evidence that the Elves aren't as great and incorruptible as > >they seemed to think. > > The Elves should not be viewed as incorruptible. I don't believe Tolkien ever > said they were incorruptible. What he seemed to feel was that they were somehow > morally or spiritually stronger than men, and thus less susceptible to > corruption. Interestingly enough, Tolkien almost utterly fails to portrait Elves as different to humans or spiritually stronger than them in Silmarrilion. Not only are they more susceptible to evil than the Edain, they act very human-like and on occasion rather silly. I.e. an apparent Turin-adulation among the Nargothrond-elves, or high-school type bullying of Turin by Saeros. Ergo Tuor and Voronwe, Maeglin, etc... Silmarrilion Elves and LOTR elves, who are distinctly different from humans, could be two different species. IMHO it is one of the reasons why Tolkien never finished Silmarrilion - he failed to capture the alienness of his suposedly alien protagonists, there was no conflict between a human POV and another one. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:04:43 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 69 Message-ID: <7onq0a$7fh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19990807122857.24132.00009111@ng-fw1.aol.com> <7oi2qp$1q8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <37AD0428.23A579FF@ma.ultranet.com> <7ojopv$9hh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37ae864a.3412223@news.pc-intouch.com> <7omver$iu7@drn.newsguy.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.151 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 934243146 7665 12.79.23.151 (9 Aug 1999 23:59:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 1999 23:59:06 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7omver$iu7@drn.newsguy.com... > There is only one place where Tolkien speaks of 144 solar > years: the Appendix to THE LORD OF THE RINGS. Michael Martinez "In notes not given in this book, in which my father was calculating on this basis the time of the Awakening of Men, he expressly stated that 144 Sun Years = 1 Valian Year..." Christopher Tolkien "In recording the events in Aman, therefore, we may as did the Eldar themselves use the Valian unit, though we must not forget that within any such 'year' the Eldar enjoyed an immense series of delights and achievements which even the most gifted of Men could not accomplish in twelve times twelve mortal years." JRRT > The Valian Years are not the same as the Yen of the > Eldarin calendar in Middle-earth. Michael Martinez "In Aman the length of the unit of 'year' was the same as it was for the Quendi." JRRT > A Valian Year was equated to 9.58 years of the Sun > (according to Pengolod in MORGOTH'S RING). The quotations I gave above come from what Christopher refers to in the index of Morgoth's Ring as the 'later conception'... later in reference to the Pengolod reckoning you refer to. The revised information is in Myth's Transformed pg 425-431. Therein can also be found various references indicating that a Valian Year is far more than 9.58 solar years... for instance indicating that a man might live 100 Solar Years in Aman (where there is no sickness) and yet his whole lifespan be little more than half of a Valian Year. Which works mathematically with 1 VY = 144 better than it does with 1 VY = 9.58. > An "age" in Tolkien is based on two criteria: its > beginning and its end, nothing more. Michael Martinez "Now measured by the flowering of the Trees there were twelve hours in each Day of the Valar, and one thousand of such days the Valar took to be a year in their realm. It is supposed indeed by the Lore-masters that the Valar so devised the hours of the Trees that one hundred of such years so measured should be in duration as one age of the Valar." Morgoth's Ring, The Annals of Aman This comes from the same section you refer to above. It is one of several examples of a time definition for an 'age'. To the best of my recollection all of these 'precise' time measurements deal with ages before the Years of the Sun. Tolkien later said that he felt the length of the ages was getting shorter... which along with the times given for the first, second and third Ages of the Sun shows that the solar ages at least were somewhat arbitrary as you indicate above - as opposed to the Ages of the Valar which seem to have been fixed amounts. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves X-Nntp-Posting-Host: harper.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) References: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19990807122857.24132.00009111@ng-fw1.aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 02:43:27 GMT Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews2!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth ephebe22@aol.com (ryan k): > I think this raises an interesting question. I don't know the > publishing history of Tolkien's works, except that there has been a > great deal published posthumously by his estate. Are these later > writings "canonical?" [snip] Yes, I know this is a little late, but I've been out of town. The question of what should be considered "canonical" is a long-standing one, and everyone seems to come up with their own take on the matter. I've spent a fair bit of time working out my own thoughts, and they can be found as a part of my Tolkien booklist: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/BookList.html Different people will "draw the line" at different points in the "continuum of canonicalness" that I outline there: some will only accept sources that I call "true canon", or those together with "adopted canon", while others prefer to consider a continuum of validity (which is the perspective that I take myself). Some accept _The Silmarillion_ as canon despite its deficiencies, as it _is_ the only continuous and self-consistent treatment of the mythology that we have; I disagree, but I can't entirely blame them. At any rate, my discussion at the above link is as complete as I can manage at the moment (particularly if you follow the "elsewhere" link in the second paragraph). Enjoy! Steuard Jensen ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: 10 Aug 1999 05:15:01 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 42 Message-ID: <7op545$os6@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> <19990808151648.21498.00004790@ngol04.aol.com> <37ae8a11.4379993@news.pc-intouch.com> <7omva1$ij7@drn.newsguy.com> <37AF2CA2.DA7D7017@unet.univie.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-192.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On Mon, 09 Aug 1999 21:31:46 +0200, in article <37AF2CA2.DA7D7017@unet.univie.ac.at>, Maia resolved to say for all to read and review: >Interestingly enough, Tolkien almost utterly fails to >portrait Elves as different to humans or spiritually >stronger than them in Silmarrilion. Not only are they more >susceptible to evil than the Edain, they act very human-like >and on occasion rather silly. I.e. an apparent >Turin-adulation among the Nargothrond-elves, or high-school >type bullying of Turin by Saeros. Ergo Tuor and Voronwe, >Maeglin, etc... Silmarrilion Elves and LOTR elves, who are >distinctly different from humans, could be two different >species. IMHO it is one of the reasons why Tolkien never >finished Silmarrilion - he failed to capture the alienness >of his suposedly alien protagonists, there was no conflict >between a human POV and another one. That's a good point, but I think one should keep in mind that the Elves in LOTR were essentially BORROWED from the older tradition. And that borrowing implied that they had benefitted immensely from the trials of their past, having gained a great wisdom (and sorrow) from those tribulations. The struggle against Sauron had a great impact for the Elves, but it had a greater one for Men. The Elves were able to sail over Sea, if they wished. Men had to stay in Middle-earth and endure whatever befell them. Hence, the Elves we see in LOTR seem to be more self-sacrificing than Men (perhaps) because they are the most unselfish of their race, willing to risk all for the sake of staying in Middle-earth (or perhaps they are the most selfish Elves, because they refuse to leave a world that is no longer truly theirs). Either way, however, they are making a choice not available to Men, and that presents the non-human (or, rather, non-mortal) perspective. In THE SILMARILLION, the Elves are long-lived but suffer many of the same griefs as Men: they die, they are slain, they are deceived and/or enslaved, they lose almost everything, and they are eventually driven to near-utter hopelessness. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37b28a09.22702008@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <7ohhja$5il$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19990807122857.24132.00009111@ng-fw1.aol.com> <7oi2qp$1q8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <37AD0428.23A579FF@ma.ultranet.com> <7ojopv$9hh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37ae864a.3412223@news.pc-intouch.com> <7omver$iu7@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-37.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 21 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:50:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 934447615 207.212.198.18 (Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:46:55 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:46:55 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On 9 Aug 1999 09:26:03 -0700, Michael Martinez wrote: >There is only one place where Tolkien speaks of 144 solar years: the Appendix to >THE LORD OF THE RINGS. The Valian Years are not the same as the Yen of the >Eldarin calendar in Middle-earth. > >A Valian Year was equated to 9.58 years of the Sun (according to Pengolod in >MORGOTH'S RING). My mistake. Is that 9.58(base10) or 9.58(base12)? >An "age" in Tolkien is based on two criteria: its beginning and its end, nothing >more. I was basing my calculations on Conrad's statement that an 'age' is roughly 3000 solar years. I realize that in most of Tolkien's writings the ages are defined by specific events: the destruction of the Two Trees, the rising of the Sun, the defeat of Morgoth, and the defeat of Sauron (twice). ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37b28b33.23000045@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> <19990808151648.21498.00004790@ngol04.aol.com> <37ae8a11.4379993@news.pc-intouch.com> <7omva1$ij7@drn.newsguy.com> <37AF2CA2.DA7D7017@unet.univie.ac.at> <7op545$os6@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-37.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 33 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:03:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 934448884 207.212.198.18 (Thu, 12 Aug 1999 02:08:04 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 02:08:04 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On 10 Aug 1999 05:15:01 -0700, Michael Martinez wrote: >That's a good point, but I think one should keep in mind that the Elves in LOTR >were essentially BORROWED from the older tradition. And that borrowing implied >that they had benefitted immensely from the trials of their past, having gained >a great wisdom (and sorrow) from those tribulations. The struggle against This is probably the most significant factor. The reason Elrond and Galadriel don't do any of the stupid or evil things that we see the Elves doing in the Silmarillion is that they have the benefit of experience. They know what happens if they take themselves too seriously. >Sauron had a great impact for the Elves, but it had a greater one for Men. The >Elves were able to sail over Sea, if they wished. Men had to stay in >Middle-earth and endure whatever befell them. I'm not sure that's true. Men stay in Middle-earth for sixty or seventy years and then they die. The Elves might *not* be able to sail over Sea. This came up at the Council of Elrond; the Elves were worried that if Gondor were overrun, Sauron might move up the coast and capture the few remaining Elven harbors. In that case, the best the Elves could hope for would be a quick death. >Hence, the Elves we see in LOTR seem to be more self-sacrificing than Men >(perhaps) because they are the most unselfish of their race, willing to risk all >for the sake of staying in Middle-earth (or perhaps they are the most selfish >Elves, because they refuse to leave a world that is no longer truly theirs). I'm sure knowing exactly what happens to them if they die has something to do with it. ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?E=E4rendil?= the Mariner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:03:56 -0400 Organization: Havens of the River Sirion Lines: 26 Message-ID: <37B2E25A.528E23CD@ma.ultranet.com> References: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> <19990808151648.21498.00004790@ngol04.aol.com> <37ae8a11.4379993@news.pc-intouch.com> <7omva1$ij7@drn.newsguy.com> <37AF2CA2.DA7D7017@unet.univie.ac.at> <7op545$os6@drn.newsguy.com> <37b28b33.23000045@news.pc-intouch.com> Reply-To: sauron.darklord@bigfoot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: pLbqg9V/5Td3rxBUm4CmuZROq0Qr7G2ovseRD3DFO+E= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Aug 1999 15:00:57 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Yeah, if you think about it, Elrond had been alive for over 6500 years at the War of the Ring, and he had known all the follies made by Fëanor, Thingol, Turgon and pretty much anyone else who made mistakes over the course of the Elder Days. If he couldn't learn something from that, i don't think be able to get the title as one of the "Wise." -Earendil Mark Wells wrote: > On 10 Aug 1999 05:15:01 -0700, Michael Martinez > wrote: > > >That's a good point, but I think one should keep in mind that the Elves in LOTR > >were essentially BORROWED from the older tradition. And that borrowing implied > >that they had benefitted immensely from the trials of their past, having gained > >a great wisdom (and sorrow) from those tribulations. The struggle against > > This is probably the most significant factor. The reason Elrond and > Galadriel don't do any of the stupid or evil things that we see the > Elves doing in the Silmarillion is that they have the benefit of > experience. They know what happens if they take themselves too > seriously. ###### From: mfterman@panix.com (Martin Terman) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: 12 Aug 1999 13:08:47 -0400 Organization: Mutant for Hire, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <7ouv2v$pq6$1@panix3.panix.com> References: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> <7op545$os6@drn.newsguy.com> <37b28b33.23000045@news.pc-intouch.com> <37B2E25A.528E23CD@ma.ultranet.com> Reply-To: mfterman@panix.com (Martin Terman) NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.nfs100.access.net X-Trace: news.panix.com 934477728 14167 166.84.0.228 (12 Aug 1999 17:08:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Aug 1999 17:08:48 GMT X-Newsposter: trn 4.0-test55 (26 Feb 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail In article <37B2E25A.528E23CD@ma.ultranet.com>, sauron.darklord@bigfoot.com writes: >Yeah, if you think about it, Elrond had been alive for over 6500 years at >the War of the Ring, and he had known all the follies made by Feanor, >Thingol, Turgon and pretty much anyone else who made mistakes over the >course of the Elder Days. If he couldn't learn something from that, i >don't think be able to get the title as one of the "Wise." Consider it natural selection. Anyone able to survive all the way to the end of the Third Age had to have at least part of a clue. All the stupid elves were weeded out during the First and Second Ages. Especially during the First Age, stupid elves tended to get themselves killed, either in pointless feuds or tricked by Morgoth (sometimes both). Unfortunately they had a tendency to take smart elves down with them. During the Second Age, the stupid elves were suckered and taken down by Sauron during the whole rings fiasco. Anyone who avoided all of that had to be fairly bright or at least experienced enough to know their limitations and work within them. Or had enough sense to duck at the right time at least. All in all, you had a fairly clueful group (or led by the clueful) by LotR. -- Martin Terman, Therapy and Behavioral Counseling for Troubled Computers. Disclaimer: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but flames are just ignored email: mfterman@panix.com home page: http://www.panix.com/~mfterman/ "Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance" ###### Message-ID: <37B3993E.33955AF0@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves References: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> <7op545$os6@drn.newsguy.com> <37b28b33.23000045@news.pc-intouch.com> <37B2E25A.528E23CD@ma.ultranet.com> <7ouv2v$pq6$1@panix3.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.67 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 934516782 206.161.15.67 (Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:59:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:59:42 EDT Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 00:04:14 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.ispnews.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Martin Terman wrote: ... > Consider it natural selection. Anyone able to survive all the way to the > end of the Third Age had to have at least part of a clue. All the stupid > elves were weeded out during the First and Second Ages. > > Especially during the First Age, stupid elves tended to get themselves > killed, either in pointless feuds or tricked by Morgoth (sometimes both). > Unfortunately they had a tendency to take smart elves down with them. > During the Second Age, the stupid elves were suckered and taken down by > Sauron during the whole rings fiasco. Say unwise, rather than stupid. The smiths of Eregion were very bright, and the trap Sauron set them was a smart person's trap - it depended upon desire for knowledge and pride of craftsmanship. Targeting smart people is much trickier than targeting dumb ones, and that's why his trap was fairly unsuccessful. He never got any of the Three, lost the One, and found the Seven to be relatively ineffective. The Nine were fairly effective, however. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Lines: 83 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 13 Aug 1999 20:40:35 GMT References: <37B47E40.5D19E3FF@univie.ac.at> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990813164035.14674.00000376@ngol02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.239.227!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37B47E40.5D19E3FF@univie.ac.at>, Maia writes: >Mark Wells schrieb: >> >> On 10 Aug 1999 05:15:01 -0700, Michael Martinez >> wrote: >> >> >That's a good point, but I think one should keep in mind that the Elves in >LOTR >> >were essentially BORROWED from the older tradition. And that borrowing >implied >> >that they had benefitted immensely from the trials of their past, having >gained >> >a great wisdom (and sorrow) from those tribulations. The struggle against >> >> This is probably the most significant factor. The reason Elrond and >> Galadriel don't do any of the stupid or evil things that we see the >> Elves doing in the Silmarillion is that they have the benefit of >> experience. They know what happens if they take themselves too >> seriously. > >It is not only that Silmarillion Elves are more stupid/evil than the >LOTR ones. It is that they act in 100% human way. No alienness, no >real difference between the characters of Elves and Men. And although >both faced the suffering and risk of death after Morgoth's return, the >long soujorn of the Sindar/silvan elves in peaceful starlit Beleriand >and even more Noldor experiences in Aman should have made them very >different from the humans, who knew only the Sun/Moon-lit world. That >leaving aside the innate differencies between the races which are >continuously stressed by JRRT. > >Here are some examples of the blurring attributes: > >For instance Saeros' "high-school bully" behaviour seems extremely >un-elvish and the resulting chase where naked Saeros is unable to >outrun the armed human Turin goes against anything we read about the >elves in subsequent works. And doesn't Turin later outrun Mablung as >well? There is some inconsistentcy but the point is made in several places that physically, humans and elves are at much the same level. Thus a human in his prime, like Turin or Beren is a match for any elf. That's why both Turin and Beren were able to whap elves around. However, the human prime of life is but a blink of an eye to an elf. That is why the return of Hurin was such a tragedy to the Elves. The last time he was seen was in the prime of his life, slaughtering orcs like no other. When he is seen again he is an old broken man. >Awe and adulation the elves of Nargothrond lavish on Turin seem >extremely out of place for people who lived in Aman the Blessed and >seen the Valar. Morever, the most important weapon of elves being >their sheer will and spirit as well as innate power (i.e. Finrod's >duel with Sauron and Luthien's deeds), it is unclear why they would >worship and obey a human who is merely an accomplished fighter. I think because they saw in Turin a man of action. For quite some time before Turin arrived, Nargothrond was a hidden realm, relying on stealth and secrecy for its protection rather than strenght and action. The Noldor were people of action and emotion, yet here they were skulking around like the darn Teleri-Sinder, hiding out in caves. Look at their history: Feanor gets out ahead of his troops and is killed, the rescue of Maedros, Fingolfin in rage rides to the door of Thangorodrim and calls out Mortgoth to a duel, Gwindor rides to the gates of Angband in disregard of orders to hold back. Finrod drops everything to help Beren on his quest. Glorfindel and Ecthelion meeting balrogs in single combat. *Those* were NOLDOR! Rage, Rage against the dying of the light. Turin was followed because in a sense he was more Noldorin than those in Nargothrond. He represented what they had been and wanted to be again. The Elves we see in the Third Age are poor in comparison to the tragic yet heroic figures of the First Age. In the Third Age, the Elves are a fading people, hanging on by their fingernails to small, petty little realms with little concern for the outside world, remembering wistfully of times past. Gildor: Sorry the Ringwraith's are after you, but I have a boat to catch. No Finrod he. Celeborn: Geez, if I had known you woke a balrog I would never have let you in. No Glorfindel he. Much is made that the most illustrious line of humans has elvish blood. Little is made of the fact that the most illustrious line of Elves has human blood. Russ ###### From: Maia Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 22:21:20 +0200 Organization: Vienna University, Austria Lines: 43 Message-ID: <37B47E40.5D19E3FF@univie.ac.at> References: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> <19990808151648.21498.00004790@ngol04.aol.com> <37ae8a11.4379993@news.pc-intouch.com> <7omva1$ij7@drn.newsguy.com> <37AF2CA2.DA7D7017@unet.univie.ac.at> <7op545$os6@drn.newsguy.com> <37b28b33.23000045@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elektronik.hno.akh-wien.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: www.univie.ac.at 934574354 165718 149.148.83.4 (13 Aug 1999 19:59:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Aug 1999 19:59:14 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [de] (Win98; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.vbs.at!rohrpostix.uta4you.at!newsfeed01.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!aconews.univie.ac.at!news.univie.ac.at!not-for-mail Mark Wells schrieb: > > On 10 Aug 1999 05:15:01 -0700, Michael Martinez > wrote: > > >That's a good point, but I think one should keep in mind that the Elves in LOTR > >were essentially BORROWED from the older tradition. And that borrowing implied > >that they had benefitted immensely from the trials of their past, having gained > >a great wisdom (and sorrow) from those tribulations. The struggle against > > This is probably the most significant factor. The reason Elrond and > Galadriel don't do any of the stupid or evil things that we see the > Elves doing in the Silmarillion is that they have the benefit of > experience. They know what happens if they take themselves too > seriously. It is not only that Silmarillion Elves are more stupid/evil than the LOTR ones. It is that they act in 100% human way. No alienness, no real difference between the characters of Elves and Men. And although both faced the suffering and risk of death after Morgoth's return, the long soujorn of the Sindar/silvan elves in peaceful starlit Beleriand and even more Noldor experiences in Aman should have made them very different from the humans, who knew only the Sun/Moon-lit world. That leaving aside the innate differencies between the races which are continuously stressed by JRRT. Here are some examples of the blurring attributes: For instance Saeros' "high-school bully" behaviour seems extremely un-elvish and the resulting chase where naked Saeros is unable to outrun the armed human Turin goes against anything we read about the elves in subsequent works. And doesn't Turin later outrun Mablung as well? Awe and adulation the elves of Nargothrond lavish on Turin seem extremely out of place for people who lived in Aman the Blessed and seen the Valar. Morever, the most important weapon of elves being their sheer will and spirit as well as innate power (i.e. Finrod's duel with Sauron and Luthien's deeds), it is unclear why they would worship and obey a human who is merely an accomplished fighter. Maeglin, Voronwe, etc. are further examples of the very human behaviour from the Silmarillion elves. ###### From: Larry Richards Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:39:19 -0400 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 27 Message-ID: <37B4E4E6.F3F832D0@virginia.edu> References: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> <19990808151648.21498.00004790@ngol04.aol.com> <37ae8a11.4379993@news.pc-intouch.com> <7omva1$ij7@drn.newsguy.com> <37AF2CA2.DA7D7017@unet.univie.ac.at> <7op545$os6@drn.newsguy.com> <37b28b33.23000045@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip-3-1.acc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Corel-MessageType: EMail Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote: > On 10 Aug 1999 05:15:01 -0700, Michael Martinez > wrote: > > >That's a good point, but I think one should keep in mind that the > Elves in LOTR > >were essentially BORROWED from the older tradition. And that > borrowing implied > >that they had benefitted immensely from the trials of their past, > having gained > >a great wisdom (and sorrow) from those tribulations. The struggle > against > > This is probably the most significant factor. The reason Elrond and > Galadriel don't do any of the stupid or evil things that we see the > Elves doing in the Silmarillion is that they have the benefit of > experience. They know what happens if they take themselves too > seriously. I though the stupidity and evil were driven by the oath of Feanor. Not because of their lack of experience (of which they'd already had thousands of years. LGR ###### From: Seven O'Nine Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:04:36 -0400 Lines: 36 Message-ID: <37B9961B.39193F38@erols.com> References: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> <19990808151648.21498.00004790@ngol04.aol.com> <37ae8a11.4379993@news.pc-intouch.com> <7omva1$ij7@drn.newsguy.com> <37AF2CA2.DA7D7017@unet.univie.ac.at> <7op545$os6@drn.newsguy.com> <37b28b33.23000045@news.pc-intouch.com> <37B47E40.5D19E3FF@univie.ac.at> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: WWvyCkZHfpPgdk6+e/zvmIpV9uaPPjPfQV9O/QhVTTo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 1999 19:58:06 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Maia wrote: > For instance Saeros' "high-school bully" behaviour seems extremely > un-elvish and the resulting chase where naked Saeros is unable to > outrun the armed human Turin goes against anything we read about the > elves in subsequent works. And doesn't Turin later outrun Mablung as > well? I think (I'm not sure), physically, Turin was the most powerful human ever, or at least powerful enough to oust a couple of elves. > Awe and adulation the elves of Nargothrond lavish on Turin seem > extremely out of place for people who lived in Aman the Blessed and > seen the Valar. Morever, the most important weapon of elves being > their sheer will and spirit as well as innate power (i.e. Finrod's > duel with Sauron and Luthien's deeds), it is unclear why they would > worship and obey a human who is merely an accomplished fighter. "Great power Melian lent to Thingol, who was himself great among Eldar; for he alone of the Sindar had seen with his own eyes the Trees in the days of their flowering, and king though he was of Umanyar, he was not accounted among the Moriquendi, but with the Elves of the Light, mighty upon Middle-earth." Galadriel later on lived there, though. Luthien It's the end of the world as we know it, I feel fine! ###### From: azazoth@access2.mountain.net (Marie Barnett) Subject: Re: Orcs and Elves Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7oitat$uu3@drn.newsguy.com> <19990808151648.21498.00004790@ngol04.aol.com> <37ae8a11.4379993@news.pc-intouch.com> <7omva1$ij7@drn.newsguy.com> <37AF2CA2.DA7D7017@unet.univie.ac.at> <7op545$os6@drn.newsguy.com> <37b28b33.23000045@news.pc-intouch.com> <37B47E40.5D19E3FF@univie.ac.at> <37B9961B.39193F38@erols.com> X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.mountain.net Message-ID: <37bc29db@News> Date: 19 Aug 1999 11:59:23 -0400 X-Trace: 19 Aug 1999 11:59:23 -0400, access2.mountain.net Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snf1!news.gtei.net!News!access2.mountain.net!azazoth : > For instance Saeros' "high-school bully" behaviour seems extremely : > un-elvish and the resulting chase where naked Saeros is unable to : > outrun the armed human Turin goes against anything we read about the : > elves in subsequent works. And doesn't Turin later outrun Mablung as : > well? : I think (I'm not sure), physically, Turin was the most powerful human ever, : or at least powerful enough to oust a couple of elves. IIRC, Turin's father, Hurin, was account as the greatest of human warriors. Tolkien seems to have advocated a stance that one can inherit greatness.(As in Aragorn being fit to be king, in part at least, because he was of the *line of kings*)