From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Going West Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 23:31:49 -0400 Lines: 50 Message-ID: <37AA5713.FD74EE1B@erols.com> References: <37AA25D0.6B0A16D5@erols.com> <19990805212345.10020.00006725@ng-fk1.aol.com> Reply-To: jasolin@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: VOVWF4did68JQy0MbJGkO8hJPJ/9pnayfQEN75/TIGM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 1999 03:45:52 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail FernWithy wrote: > I always had the impression that it was Legolas himself who made the plea for > Gimli's travel. Perhaps Galadriel backed him up, but that would imply a whole > lot of communication between worlds. Of course, the same holds for Legolas. How exactly, I wonder, do you "put in" for someone? Do you go to the Valinorean Consulate and apply for a visa? Seriously, wasn't it the Valar who restricted Aman to immortals? And if so, must Gimli's advocates appeal directly to the Valar? Must someone sail back and forth to accomplish this? If we just had some more of those darned palantiri... > >I doubt Frodo ever returned, for the following reasons. > > > >(i) If JRRT said he didn't, he didn't. > > Depends where he said it. If it was just a letter, that's sort of like a > working note. In which case, it might have been Bingo Bolger-Baggins who died > in Aman. "JUST" a letter! Them's fightin' words! (Oops! I forgot, we're flame-free!) The earlier letters are working notes, but I think that the later ones are valuable revelations of further info on Middle-Earth. I regard any letter written after the publication of LotR as definitive, as much so as, say, the Silmarillion. > >(ii) Sam probably went to Aman largely to see Frodo. > > Agreed. Also because, after a long life, he wanted to see this place. But I > figured they'd come back together. With Bilbo? > >(iii) If either Sam or Frodo returned, I think Elanor or > > somebody would have written about it. > > If they wanted it written about. They could easily say, "The Red Book is > sealed. Write no more into it." That's most unlikely, given that they'd have lots of cool Elven lore to add to the book. -- FotW ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Going West Lines: 54 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 06 Aug 1999 01:23:45 GMT References: <37AA25D0.6B0A16D5@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990805212345.10020.00006725@ng-fk1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >Did Galadriel use her influence to swing an invite for Gimli? >It can't be that just anyone from the Fellowship got to go, >or we'd have the absurd situation that Aragorn was eligible >but not Arwen! [Fern laughs for a minute.] I always had the impression that it was Legolas himself who made the plea for Gimli's travel. Perhaps Galadriel backed him up, but that would imply a whole lot of communication between worlds. Oh, okay, maybe not that much. But if Galadriel argued Gimli's case, she would have had to know about when he was ready to come, that he wanted to come, and who she needed to convince to let him on the boat. So that's some communication going on. But that was a thread awhile back. >(2) What happened to Frodo in Aman? > >I see 3 options for Frodo: he returned to Middle-Earth >eventually; he died in Aman; he became immortal himself. I've leaned toward options three and one, myself. I took JRRT's idea of Eressea as an "Avalon" place, and assumed Frodo was immortal while he was there. Later, he and Sam go back and eventually die in Middle Earth. (As opposed to my Rescue Frodo! story, in which he comes back only a few years after he left; I'm starting to think that way, but I can find no justification of it in the books.) >I doubt Frodo ever returned, for the following reasons. > >(i) If JRRT said he didn't, he didn't. Depends where he said it. If it was just a letter, that's sort of like a working note. In which case, it might have been Bingo Bolger-Baggins who died in Aman. >(ii) Sam probably went to Aman largely to see Frodo. > > Agreed. Also because, after a long life, he wanted to see this place. But I figured they'd come back together. >(iii) If either Sam or Frodo returned, I think Elanor or > somebody would have written about it. If they wanted it written about. They could easily say, "The Red Book is sealed. Write no more into it." --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Going West Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 14:02:04 -0400 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <37AB2315.E23BD1C8@erols.com> References: <37AA25D0.6B0A16D5@erols.com> <19990805212345.10020.00006725@ng-fk1.aol.com> <37AA5713.FD74EE1B@erols.com> <7oeug8$16ac$1@newsie2.cent.net> Reply-To: jasolin@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: q8EeqjouCLhf5/g6S2ETB0p7MkYOBITFamm07PyOunQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 1999 18:31:28 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail "Robert S. Coren" wrote: > >> I always had the impression that it was Legolas himself who made the plea for > >> Gimli's travel. Perhaps Galadriel backed him up, but that would imply a whole > >> lot of communication between worlds. > > > >Of course, the same holds for Legolas. > > The same what? WOuldn't Legolas, as an Elf (and not a rebellious > Noldo), have been automatically entitled to live in Aman? Sorry for being so vague; what I meant was, Legolas would have had to employ back-and-forth communication, the same as Galadriel would have. You're right that Appendix A pretty much answers the question of why Gimli went and who gave him permission. But I still wonder if he returned to Middle-Earth or died in Aman (or didn't die at all). -- FotW ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Going West Date: 6 Aug 1999 15:20:40 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 40 Message-ID: <7oeug8$16ac$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <37AA25D0.6B0A16D5@erols.com> <19990805212345.10020.00006725@ng-fk1.aol.com> <37AA5713.FD74EE1B@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 933952840 39244 209.21.223.8 (6 Aug 1999 15:20:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 1999 15:20:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail In article <37AA5713.FD74EE1B@erols.com>, Flame of the West wrote: >FernWithy wrote: > >> I always had the impression that it was Legolas himself who made the plea for >> Gimli's travel. Perhaps Galadriel backed him up, but that would imply a whole >> lot of communication between worlds. > >Of course, the same holds for Legolas. The same what? WOuldn't Legolas, as an Elf (and not a rebellious Noldo), have been automatically entitled to live in Aman? >How exactly, I wonder, do you "put in" >for someone? Do you go to the Valinorean Consulate and apply for a visa? > >Seriously, wasn't it the Valar who restricted Aman to immortals? And if so, >must Gimli's advocates appeal directly to the Valar? Must someone sail >back and forth to accomplish this? The last paragraph of Appendix A: Here follows one of the last notes in the Red Book We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Glóin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be williong to leave Middle-Earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it,. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter. Perhaps we should take the advice implied in that last sentence. :-) -- -------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)------------------------- "Pass a moose through a fine sieve, add 3 beaten egg whites and a cup of light cream. Stir thoroughly and put into individual ramekins. Serves 53, more or less." -- Robert Gilbert, _Moose Mousse_ ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Going West Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 06 Aug 1999 17:39:35 GMT References: <37AA5713.FD74EE1B@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990806133935.25749.00005779@ng-fp1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >"JUST" a letter! Them's fightin' words! (Oops! I forgot, we're >flame-free!) I don't care to get into the letter fight again. Suffice it to say that the early letters may have been working notes, and I consider the later ones interpretations, but I wouldn't consider either as canon. JRRT was given to changing his mind, as the HoME volumes prove, so anything not actually published is probably not something that needs to be taken into account when figuring "might-have-beens." >> Agreed. Also because, after a long life, he wanted to see this place. But >I >> figured they'd come back together. > >With Bilbo? Well, I saw Bilbo as having less stake in the world than Frodo, and more friends among the elves, so I figured he'd stay. Frodo didn't have a lot of elvish friends, at least not as close as his Shire friends. But, sure, I guess Bilbo could come back with them. >> If they wanted it written about. They could easily say, "The Red Book is >> sealed. Write no more into it." > >That's most unlikely, given that they'd have lots of cool Elven lore to add >to the book. I dont' find it at all unlikely. "Our story is over. The New Age is here... let the book be closed on the old one." --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Going West Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37adcd84.42662672@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <37AA25D0.6B0A16D5@erols.com> <19990805212345.10020.00006725@ng-fk1.aol.com> <37AA5713.FD74EE1B@erols.com> <7oeug8$16ac$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AB2315.E23BD1C8@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-33.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 12 Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 18:35:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 934137132 207.212.198.18 (Sun, 08 Aug 1999 11:32:12 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 11:32:12 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Fri, 06 Aug 1999 14:02:04 -0400, Flame of the West wrote: >You're right that Appendix A pretty much answers the question of why >Gimli went and who gave him permission. But I still wonder if he returned >to Middle-Earth or died in Aman (or didn't die at all). I'm not sure it answers the question of whether he even *reached* Aman. As I said in a previous post, Galadriel might have had to stand on the beach at Tol Eressea so that Gimli could see her from the deck of his ship before he died. ###### From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Going West Date: 13 Aug 1999 07:03:32 GMT Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ (USA) Lines: 31 Message-ID: <7p0g04$e6h$1@news.asu.edu> References: <37AB2315.E23BD1C8@erols.com> <37AA25D0.6B0A16D5@erols.com> <19990805212345.10020.00006725@ng-fk1.aol.com> <37AA5713.F Reply-To: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec2.asu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!CS.Arizona.EDU!math.arizona.edu!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!aztec.asu.edu!chuckb In a previous article, jsolinas@erols.com (Flame of the West) says: >"Robert S. Coren" wrote: > >> >> I always had the impression that it was Legolas himself who made the plea for >> >> Gimli's travel. Perhaps Galadriel backed him up, but that would imply a whole >> >> lot of communication between worlds. >> > >> >Of course, the same holds for Legolas. >> >> The same what? WOuldn't Legolas, as an Elf (and not a rebellious >> Noldo), have been automatically entitled to live in Aman? > >Sorry for being so vague; what I meant was, Legolas would have had to >employ back-and-forth communication, the same as Galadriel would have. > >You're right that Appendix A pretty much answers the question of why >Gimli went and who gave him permission. But I still wonder if he returned >to Middle-Earth or died in Aman (or didn't die at all). Sorry to break netiquette and quote an entire aritcle, but there seems no good place to cut. I would like to point out, though, that neither Gimli, nor Frodo, nor Sam, or even Bilbo, went to _Aman_. They went to Tol Erressa, "within sight of the undying lands". So the ban on mortals in Aman can stand, and Bilbo, Frodo, and company can enjoy the benefit of the Valar in the West. -- ###### Message-ID: <37B403FE.389238A3@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Going West References: <37AB2315.E23BD1C8@erols.com> <37AA25D0.6B0A16D5@erols.com> <19990805212345.10020.00006725@ng-fk1.aol.com> <37AA5713.F <7p0g04$e6h$1@news.asu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.39 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 934544108 206.161.15.39 (Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:35:08 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:35:08 EDT Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:39:42 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.ispnews.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail CHUCK BRAMLET wrote: ... > I would like to point out, though, that neither Gimli, nor Frodo, nor > Sam, or even Bilbo, went to _Aman_. They went to Tol Erressa, "within > sight of the undying lands". Citation, please? The text I can find merely states that they went "Over the Sea". Arwen passes to Frodo her permission to "go to the Haven" and "pass on to the West". I personally have no certainty how far West they went, though it is clearly implied that they are heading west by the Straight Road, but that would be equally helpful, whether going to Tol Eressea, or continuing on to Aman.