From: "O. Sharp" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Gandalf the Nazgul (was: Peace?) Date: 4 Aug 1999 02:57:40 GMT Organization: What Is Truth? What Is Real? Lines: 51 Message-ID: <7o8a74$kvb@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <7o2p1k$m4m$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: netcom12.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 03 9:57:40 PM CDT 1999 NNTP-Posting-User: ohh User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!not-for-mail The esteemed Steuard Jensen quotes the esteemed Mr. Dunkerson, and adds: :> 3: ANY negative comment about an adversary or that person's :> views will be considered violation of the cease-fire. :> Assume you are dealing with the most thin skinned person :> possible and be polite enough not to offend them. This :> means that even so little a thing as 'I am right and you :> are wrong' may qualify as a flame - allow them their right :> to interpret things as they choose; 'I believe it means :> this'. : : This provision could be quite dangerous (and hence, I have quoted it : in full). If a newbie posts to the group and says "Gandalf was a : Nazgul who turned good", I fully reserve the right to say "I am right : and you are wrong" (though hopefully more politely than this). ....which, like the "Frodo is Bilbo's Son" example, may _also_ be a seemingly-absurd statement which has a certain textual basis. :) In _Return of the Shadow_, p. 47 hardback, we have the Hobbits pausing on the road when they hear a horse: 'I think we had better get out of sight,' said Bingo; 'or you fellows at any rate.[...]' They ran quickly to the left down into a little hollow beside the road, and lay flat. Bingo slipped on his ring and sat down a few yards from the track. The sound of hoofs came nearer. Round a turn came a white horse, and on it sat a bundle - or that is what it looked like: a small man wrapped entirely in a great cloak and hood so that only his eyes peered out, and his boots in the stirrups below. The horse stopped when it came level with Bingo. The figure uncovered its nose and sniffed; and then sat silent as if listening. Suddenly a laugh came from inside the hood. 'Bingo my boy!' said Gandalf, throwing aside his wrappings[...] According to Christopher T.'s notes, the draft stopped almost immediately and then Gandalf was changed to the first Nazgul via pencilled corrections. So while "Gandalf was a Nazgul who turned good" might seem to be in error, the hypothetical poster might have been saying that "the Nazgul were Gandalfs who went bad"... and be, from the point of view of the _historical development of the text_, entirely correct. :) ....These Absoulte-Statements-Of-Fact [tm] tend to be dangerous. :) :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ohh@netcom.com "All human beings have a common ancestry. In this sense, all people are related to one another." -from the World Book Encyclopedia's article on race. I present it as a jumping-off point in case some enterprising soul wishes to present an argument that JRRT _was_ black. :) ###### From: "Keith Fargo" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf the Nazgul (was: Peace?) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 22:47:16 -0500 Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 60 Message-ID: <7o8d17$r4o$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> References: <7o2p1k$m4m$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7o8a74$kvb@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-124-87.dial.indiana.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.indiana.edu!not-for-mail Nicely done... Keith O. Sharp wrote in message news:7o8a74$kvb@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com... > The esteemed Steuard Jensen quotes > the esteemed Mr. Dunkerson, and adds: > > :> 3: ANY negative comment about an adversary or that person's > :> views will be considered violation of the cease-fire. > :> Assume you are dealing with the most thin skinned person > :> possible and be polite enough not to offend them. This > :> means that even so little a thing as 'I am right and you > :> are wrong' may qualify as a flame - allow them their right > :> to interpret things as they choose; 'I believe it means > :> this'. > : > : This provision could be quite dangerous (and hence, I have quoted it > : in full). If a newbie posts to the group and says "Gandalf was a > : Nazgul who turned good", I fully reserve the right to say "I am right > : and you are wrong" (though hopefully more politely than this). > > ....which, like the "Frodo is Bilbo's Son" example, may _also_ be a > seemingly-absurd statement which has a certain textual basis. :) In > _Return of the Shadow_, p. 47 hardback, we have the Hobbits pausing on > the road when they hear a horse: > > 'I think we had better get out of sight,' said Bingo; 'or you > fellows at any rate.[...]' > They ran quickly to the left down into a little hollow beside the > road, and lay flat. Bingo slipped on his ring and sat down a few yards > from the track. The sound of hoofs came nearer. Round a turn came a white > horse, and on it sat a bundle - or that is what it looked like: a small > man wrapped entirely in a great cloak and hood so that only his eyes > peered out, and his boots in the stirrups below. > The horse stopped when it came level with Bingo. The figure uncovered > its nose and sniffed; and then sat silent as if listening. Suddenly a > laugh came from inside the hood. > 'Bingo my boy!' said Gandalf, throwing aside his wrappings[...] > > According to Christopher T.'s notes, the draft stopped almost immediately > and then Gandalf was changed to the first Nazgul via pencilled > corrections. So while "Gandalf was a Nazgul who turned good" might seem > to be in error, the hypothetical poster might have been saying that > "the Nazgul were Gandalfs who went bad"... and be, from the point of > view of the _historical development of the text_, entirely correct. :) > > ....These Absoulte-Statements-Of-Fact [tm] tend to be dangerous. :) :) > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > ohh@netcom.com "All human beings have a common ancestry. In this > sense, all people are related to one another." > -from the World Book Encyclopedia's article > on race. I present it as a jumping-off point > in case some enterprising soul wishes to > present an argument that JRRT _was_ black. :)