From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Date: 4 Aug 1999 07:14:50 GMT Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ (USA) Lines: 35 Message-ID: <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E221A.CB538BF7@ma.ultranet.com> <379E30DA.4408 Reply-To: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec2.asu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!204.121.3.5!newshost.lanl.gov!ncar!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!aztec.asu.edu!chuckb In a previous article, robfarm@bellsouth.net (Robinson) says: >I quote: > >"At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-Elven (Elros and >Elrond, referenced in the previous paragraph), an irrevocable choice to >which kindred they would belong... > >Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind...To him therefore was granted the same >grace as to those of the High Elves that still ingered in Middle-earth: >(that they could go to the Uttermost West when weary of mortal lands)... > >But to *the children of Elrond* a choice was also appointed: to pass >_with him_ from the circles of the world; or if the they remained, to >become mortal and die and Middle-earth." LotR, III, appendix A, page >389. > >How can you interpret that any other way? [snip] I think previous discussions on this topic have left it assumed that Elrond's sons went West with Celeborn, altho' it isn't really stated anywhere cannonical that I know of. Arwen took the "Gift of Illuvitar" by marrying a mortal. However, in the forward to LOTR (BB, 1966), JRRT states that Hobbits are with us still, but we just don't see them - they avoid us "with dismay". He also mentions the Elves records are concerened mainly with themselves, and little of men. Using the present-tense, I might add. Check the Deja News archives for previous discussion on this... -- ###### From: "Edward Pallis" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:11:05 -0600 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 8 Message-ID: <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E221A.CB538BF7@ma.ultranet.com> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.74.74.133 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 933811973 28063 12.74.74.133 (5 Aug 1999 00:12:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 1999 00:12:53 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail What about Aragorns and Arwens offspring? Is it possible that they would be given a choice of some sort? Would the Elvish blood have any effect on their lifespan? ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Date: 5 Aug 1999 02:17:25 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 14 Message-ID: <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 933819445 83737 209.21.223.8 (5 Aug 1999 02:17:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 1999 02:17:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail In article <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, Edward Pallis wrote: >What about Aragorns and Arwens offspring? Is it possible that they would be >given a choice of some sort? Can't think of any reason why they should? >Would the Elvish blood have any effect on their lifespan? It might. Aragorn himself lived rather longer than most Men of his time (something like 200, IIRC). -- -------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)------------------------- "Climate is what we expect, weather is what we get." -- R. A. Heinlein ###### From: "Didoo the Purple" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:37:41 -0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.210.39.230 X-Complaints-To: abuse@total.net X-Trace: news.total.net 933871056 216.210.39.230 (Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:37:36 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:37:36 EDT Organization: TotalNet Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!remarQ-easT!remarQ60!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.total.net!not-for-mail Aragorn lived longer than that, but it wasn't because of his (very ancient) elven heritage. He was a pure-blood Edain, and these humans were blessed by the valas with a much longer life than the humans who served Morgoth. Numeroreans could live up to 200-300 years, even more. Nothing to do with elvish blood. Robert S. Coren wrote in message news:7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net... > In article <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, > Edward Pallis wrote: > >What about Aragorns and Arwens offspring? Is it possible that they would be > >given a choice of some sort? > > Can't think of any reason why they should? > > >Would the Elvish blood have any effect on their lifespan? > > It might. Aragorn himself lived rather longer than most Men of his > time (something like 200, IIRC). > -- > -------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)------------------------- > "Climate is what we expect, weather is what we get." -- R. A. Heinlein ###### Message-ID: <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.62 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 933907634 206.161.15.62 (Thu, 05 Aug 1999 22:47:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 22:47:14 EDT Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 22:50:48 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.ispnews.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Didoo the Purple wrote: > > Aragorn lived longer than that, but it wasn't because of his (very ancient) > elven heritage. > He was a pure-blood Edain, and these humans were blessed by the valas with a > much longer life than the humans who served Morgoth. Numeroreans could live > up to 200-300 years, even more. > Nothing to do with elvish blood. But in the royal line, with it's high proportion of elven ancestry, the lifespans were even longer. For better or worse, Tolkien wrote a story in which nobility was truly hereditary, being tied to elven ancenstry. Aragorn was described as a throwback to the purer blood of his ancenstors. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:53:11 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 39 Message-ID: <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.214 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 933979772 12604 12.79.56.214 (6 Aug 1999 22:49:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 1999 22:49:32 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnslave1!wnmaster2!not-for-mail James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message news:37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net... > For better or worse, Tolkien wrote a story in which > nobility was truly hereditary, being tied to elven > ancenstry. > Aragorn was described as a throwback to the purer blood > of his ancenstors. The lifespans of the Dunedain began to dwindle while they still lived in Numenor, before there was any instance of non-Numenorean blood being introduced. The dwindling would thus NOT seem to be purely hereditary. Also; "After the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men. ... This mingling did not at first hasten the waning of the Dunedain, as had been feared; but the waning still proceeded, little by little, as it had before. For no doubt it was due above all to Middle-earth itself, and to the slow withdrawing of the gifts of the Numenoreans after the downfall of the Land of the Star." RotK, Appendix A.iv - Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion My understanding from this and other passages has been that the Numenoreans had long life due to special grace imparted to them by the Valar. The small part of elven blood that Elros alone possessed should not have been enough to imbue the entire population of the island with a greatly extended lifespan. Also, as the longevity of the Kings of Gondor did not dwindle any faster after they began mixing with those of non-Numenorean ancestry than it had before... further making it seem to me that this was not a hereditary matter. ###### Message-ID: <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.113 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 933994541 206.161.15.113 (Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:55:41 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:55:41 EDT Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:59:36 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.ispnews.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message > news:37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net... > > > For better or worse, Tolkien wrote a story in which > > nobility was truly hereditary, being tied to elven > > ancenstry. > > Aragorn was described as a throwback to the purer blood > > of his ancenstors. > > The lifespans of the Dunedain began to dwindle while they > still lived in Numenor, before there was any instance of > non-Numenorean blood being introduced. The dwindling would > thus NOT seem to be purely hereditary. Also; The royal line, with its elven ancestry, was given greater lifespans than the rest of the Numenoreans. During the early years of Numenor, virtually every marriage in the Royal line would have been to someone with no elven ancestry, simply because of incest taboos. That provides a simple, straightforward hereditary explanation of the decline in the royal line. "and so it was until the coming of the Shadow, when the years of the Numenoreans began to wane" - "The Line of Elros: Kings of Numenor" in _Lost Tales_. The end notes continue by saying that "the increase in the Numenorean span was brought about by assimilation of their mode of life to that of the Eldar" - whatever that means. Better nutrition? Mental and physical excercises? I think the later obsession with trying to live forever actually achieved the opposite effect, as being an abandonment of the Elven "mode of life". > My understanding from this and other passages has been that > the Numenoreans had long life due to special grace imparted > to them by the Valar. The small part of elven blood that > Elros alone possessed should not have been enough to imbue > the entire population of the island with a greatly extended > lifespan. Also, as the longevity of the Kings of Gondor > did not dwindle any faster after they began mixing with > those of non-Numenorean ancestry than it had before... > further making it seem to me that this was not a hereditary > matter. Around the same time that they first mixed with people with some non-Numenorian ancestry, they were also for the first time mixing with some people who shared the same Elven ancestry through paths that were long enough to get around incest taboos. I'm not saying that it wasn't a gift from the Valar; but their was also an inherited gift, and given disproportionately to the royal line. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 09:53:58 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 90 Message-ID: <7ohe63$hji$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.218 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 934034435 18034 12.79.56.218 (7 Aug 1999 14:00:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 1999 14:00:35 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message news:37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net... > The royal line, with its elven ancestry, was given > greater lifespans than the rest of the Numenoreans. This matches my understanding. > During the early years of Numenor, virtually every > marriage in the Royal line would have been to someone > with no elven ancestry, simply because of incest taboos. > That provides a simple, straightforward hereditary > explanation of the decline in the royal line. I don't really follow this explanation... as during the early years you speak of the longevity of the royal line AND the general populace (with NO elven ancestry) was apparently >increasing<. Precisely the opposite result I would expect if this were a hereditary factor. > "and so it was until the coming of the Shadow, when the > years of the Numenoreans began to wane" - "The Line of > Elros: Kings of Numenor" in _Lost Tales_. The end notes > continue by saying that "the increase in the Numenorean > span was brought about by assimilation of their mode of > life to that of the Eldar" - whatever that means. Better > nutrition? Mental and physical excercises? Could very well be. Compare this with JRRTs later statement that the dwindling was partly due to Middle Earth itself. This might simply refer to healthier living and greater understanding of medicine during the years in Numenor slowly being lost in Middle Earth. However, there is also this 'withdrawing of gifts' issue, which I believe to be the source of their extreme longevity. > I think the later obsession with trying to live forever > actually achieved the opposite effect, as being an > abandonment of the Elven "mode of life". Yes, that seems to be the case to me as well. Though again I'd say that I suspect the 'withdrawal of gifts' played a part as well. > Around the same time that they first mixed with people > with some non-Numenorian ancestry, they were also for the > first time mixing with some people who shared the same > Elven ancestry through paths that were long enough to get > around incest taboos. Hrrrm? Who would that be? The only example I can think of is Arwen, and that would not be 'around the same time' in my mind. They had a distant kinship with the northmen, but that was with those of the 'Edain' who did not go to Numenor, and thus did not have 'elven blood'. The line of Dol Amroth is a possibility (though that is not the 'same Elven ancestry' but a different origin), but again that came considerably later... during the reign of the second to last king of Gondor before Aragorn's renewal - and thus could not have had any impact on the dwindling of the royal line (Earnur, the last king, was a grown man 30 years before these new half-elven were born)... of course this analysis fails to explain how Imrazor could be called "the Numenorean" 2000 years after the fall of Numenor. It almost seems as if he was thought of as a 2000 S.A. figure rather than a 2000 T.A. figure (which he would have to be to coincide with the arrival of Mithrellas and the later history of births along his line.) > I'm not saying that it wasn't a gift from the Valar; but > their was also an inherited gift, and given > disproportionately to the royal line. However, this gift did not seem to follow normal rules of inheritance at all. During the early years of Numenor it got stronger in both the royal line where it was being thinned out from a single source and in the general populace where there was no hereditary link at all. Then it began to wane while the populace and royal family still had little or no infusion of 'blood' from outside. Then when they DID start to intermingle with other cultures it did not dwindle any faster than it had been. All through the history of this longevity it did not seem to behave like an inherited trait at all. Rather, it seems to me to act like a gift from without... given in especial measure to those of the royal family and those who lived the most 'elvish' or 'godly' lifestyles. ###### Message-ID: <37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> <7ohe63$hji$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 106 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.87 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 934039786 206.161.15.87 (Sat, 07 Aug 1999 11:29:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 11:29:46 EDT Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 11:33:38 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!hub1.ispnews.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message > news:37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net... ... > > During the early years of Numenor, virtually every > > marriage in the Royal line would have been to someone > > with no elven ancestry, simply because of incest taboos. > > That provides a simple, straightforward hereditary > > explanation of the decline in the royal line. > > I don't really follow this explanation... as during the > early years you speak of the longevity of the royal line > AND the general populace (with NO elven ancestry) was > apparently >increasing<. Precisely the opposite result I > would expect if this were a hereditary factor. Could you cite evidence for this gradual increase? From the Silmarillion and HoME, I gathered that there was a sudden increase at the time of the founding of Numenor, with various slightly inconsistent descriptions of how the life spans declined afterward. > > Around the same time that they first mixed with people > > with some non-Numenorian ancestry, they were also for the > > first time mixing with some people who shared the same > > Elven ancestry through paths that were long enough to get > > around incest taboos. > > Hrrrm? Who would that be? The only example I can think of > is Arwen, and that would not be 'around the same time' in > my mind. They had a distant kinship with the northmen, but > that was with those of the 'Edain' who did not go to I don't know who it was - we don't have detailed geneologies, just the tale of the Kings themselves. However, it seems reasonable to assume that most of the Kings and Queens had more than one child. If they acted like most royalty, their illegitimate children should be even more numerous, though that's not the kind of thing Tolkien was likely to mention. Over the thousands of years of Numenor's existences, these non-royal children should have produced a fairly large number of descendents. I'd be very surprised if none of these collateral descendents ever married back into the royal line. Most cultures don't consider it incest when the last common ancestor was more than a few generations back. Consider that their own royal ancestry, even if they themselves were were not royal, would make them preferred mates for the other nobility. That means that their descendents would be disproportionately noble, increasing their acceptability as royal spouses in later generations. ... > > I'm not saying that it wasn't a gift from the Valar; but > > their was also an inherited gift, and given > > disproportionately to the royal line. > > However, this gift did not seem to follow normal rules of > inheritance at all. During the early years of Numenor it > got stronger in both the royal line where it was being > thinned out from a single source and in the general > populace where there was no hereditary link at all. Then As I said above, could you provide a citation for a gradual rather than instantaneous increase at the start of the Second Age? Even if it were gradual, that's easily explained - a significant fraction of the population would bear long-term side-effects from the recent troubles, including wounds, illness, and mal-nutrition. Their higher death rate would hold down the average life expectancy until such time as everyone still alive had spent their entire life in Numenor. > it began to wane while the populace and royal family still > had little or no infusion of 'blood' from outside. Then The decline in the royal family is well explained by their mixing with the other Numenoreans with pure-human ancestry. The life span of the rest of Numenoreans did not began declining until the return of the Shadow. That event coincides closely enough with the increased contact with other races for such mixing to be the mechanism for the decline. We're not talking about an event that has been dated with any great precision. I'm sure it was a long time after it started before the decline was noted, in a society that probably didn't have our modern analytical tools for examining census statistics. After the fact, it was probably attributed to whatever was the most obvious cause occuring at roughly the same time. > when they DID start to intermingle with other cultures it > did not dwindle any faster than it had been. All through > the history of this longevity it did not seem to behave > like an inherited trait at all. Rather, it seems to me Did anybody possess the longevity who wasn't one of the original Numenoreans or their descendants? That's a pretty hereditary trait. > to act like a gift from without... given in especial > measure to those of the royal family and those who lived > the most 'elvish' or 'godly' lifestyles. I sincerely doubt that there's enough quantitative information, neither on the rate of decline, nor on the rate of racial mixing, to rule out such mixing as the primary cause of the decline. This is particularly the case because Tolkien revised his description of the decline several times. He wasn't a mathematician, nor a population geneticist, so I wouldn't recommend reading too much into such details. The main reliable facts are that the longevity was available only to the original Numenoreans and their descendants, was greater in the royal house, declined with time, and was sensitive to the lifestyle of the individual. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 13:59:17 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 156 Message-ID: <7ohsi5$l7d$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> <7ohe63$hji$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.130 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 934049157 21741 12.79.24.130 (7 Aug 1999 18:05:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 1999 18:05:57 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message news:37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net... > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >> I don't really follow this explanation... as during the >> early years you speak of the longevity of the royal line >> AND the general populace (with NO elven ancestry) was >> apparently >increasing<. > Could you cite evidence for this gradual increase? >> During the early years of Numenor it got stronger in >> both the royal line where it was being thinned out from >> a single source and in the general populace where there >> was no hereditary link at all. > As I said above, could you provide a citation for a > gradual rather than instantaneous increase at the start > of the Second Age? Well, I'd point out that in neither of the texts above did I make this claim of a "gradual" increase which you ask me to defend. Nor do I understand how an instantaneous increase could possibly be hereditary in nature - particularly when occuring in the vast majority of the population with no part of the ancestry this hereditary longevity is being attributed to. If it WERE instantaneous to all residents of the island would that not preclude a hereditary source? However, let's take a look at the lifespans of the Numenorean Royals; Elros - 500 years Vardamir - 410 years Amandil - 411 years Elendil - 401 years Meneldur - 399 years Aldarion - 398 years Ancalime - 412 years Anarion - 401 years Surion - 400 years Telperion - 411 years Minastir - 399 years Ciryatan - 401 years Atanamir - 421 years Ancalimon - 400 years Telemmaite - 390 years Vanimelde - 360 years Alcarin - 331 years Calmacil - 309 years Ardamin - 281 years Adunakhor - 253 years Zimrathon - 235 years Sakalthor - 226 years Gimilzor - 217 years Palantir - 220 years Pharazon - 201 years (killed in Downfall) Judging by this it seems that there was a drop from Elros to Vardamir but then the royal family held more or less steady in longevity until Ancalimon... dwindling steadily thereafter. Thus, I'll agree that it seems to have been an instantaneous and level jump for the royal family... though I'd still argue that this shows something other than a hereditary effect - wherein I'd expect to see something like Elros = 500, Vardamir (500 + 100) / 2 = 300, Amandil (300 + 100) / 2 = 200, Elendil (200 + 100) / 2 = 150, and then we MIGHT start to see intermarriage with other descendants of Elros and a levelling off at 150 years... rather than an immediate levelling at around 405 years. > From the Silmarillion and HoME, I gathered that there was > a sudden increase at the time of the founding of Numenor, > with various slightly inconsistent descriptions of how > the life spans declined afterward. As to the Numenorean population in general; "For though a long span of life had been granted to them, in the beginning thrice that of lesser Men..." Appendix A.i It seems from this and the other references you mention that they too increased in longevity either immediately or very quickly to 'thrice that of lesser Men'... so perhaps 200 to 300 years - with no apparent hereditary basis. >>> Around the same time that they first mixed with people >>> with some non-Numenorian ancestry, they were also for >>> the first time mixing with some people who shared the >>> same Elven ancestry through paths that were long enough >>> to get around incest taboos. > I don't know who it was - we don't have detailed > geneologies, just the tale of the Kings themselves. > However, it seems reasonable to assume that most of the > Kings and Queens had more than one child. If they acted > like most royalty, their illegitimate children should be > even more numerous, though that's not the kind of thing > Tolkien was likely to mention. Over the thousands of > years of Numenor's existences, these non-royal children > should have produced a fairly large number of > descendents. I'd be very surprised if none of these > collateral descendents ever married back into the royal > line. Most cultures don't consider it incest when the > last common ancestor was more than a few generations > back. Ah, you were referring to other Numenoreans descended from Elros but no longer considered to be in the royal line? Yes, of course such individuals would be married into the line... but that began in the Second Age, long before the Third Age marrying with those of non-Numenorean blood and thus not what I would consider "about the same time". When 'the Faithful' fled Numenor for Middle Earth they were apparently quite limited in numbers as they took only nine ships... indicating that there were perhaps five hundred of them at the outside. Yet this small population maintained a distinctiveness from those around them for 3000+ years to still be seen in Denethor and Faramir despite intermarriage with other groups. > The decline in the royal family is well explained by > their mixing with the other Numenoreans with pure-human > ancestry. Except that this decline did NOT begin when they started to mix with those of pure-human ancestry. They continued undiminished for about twelve generations of mixing with those of pure-human ancestry. Indeed, by the time they DID begin to decline it seems unlikely that there were many Numenoreans who did NOT have some elven blood. > The life span of the rest of Numenoreans did not began > declining until the return of the Shadow. That event > coincides closely enough with the increased contact > with other races for such mixing to be the mechanism for > the decline. If we take Telemmaite as the start of the decline then it began in 2526 SA. If we take the birth of Eldacar as the start of the intermingling with other races then it began around 1300 TA. A difference of 2215 years. > Did anybody possess the longevity who wasn't one of the > original Numenoreans or their descendants? That's a > pretty hereditary trait. If I set up a trust account to pay $100 to every descendant of mine until the money runs out does that make recipt of $100 a "hereditary trait" of my descendants? Likewise, if increased knowledge of health and possibly Valar given blessing provide a group of people with increased longevity is that really a 'hereditary trait'? ###### Message-ID: <37AC9822.8C98F963@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> <7ohe63$hji$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net> <7ohsi5$l7d$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 145 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.36 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 934057794 206.161.15.36 (Sat, 07 Aug 1999 16:29:54 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 16:29:54 EDT Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 16:33:38 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.corridex.com!hub1.ispnews.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message > news:37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net... > > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: ... > >> During the early years of Numenor it got stronger in ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >> both the royal line where it was being thinned out from > >> a single source and in the general populace where there > >> was no hereditary link at all. > > > As I said above, could you provide a citation for a > > gradual rather than instantaneous increase at the start > > of the Second Age? > > Well, I'd point out that in neither of the texts above did > I make this claim of a "gradual" increase which you ask me > to defend. Nor do I understand how an instantaneous You said it got stronger during the early years of Numenor. I call that an increase. If the period of time over which it occured was finite, then it is a 'gradual' increase by contrast to the instantaneous one that I believe occurred. During which years do you think it got stronger? What is your textual basis for that claim? > increase could possibly be hereditary in nature - particularly when > occuring in the vast majority of the > population with no part of the ancestry this hereditary > longevity is being attributed to. If it WERE instantaneous > to all residents of the island would that not preclude a > hereditary source? Of course; and of course not. In two different senses - the original increase was unambiguously not hereditary - it was a gift from above, and that's why I believe it was essentially instantaneous. In the long term, however, the "gift" was inherited only by the ancestors of those to whom it was originally given, and that's what I mean when I say it was hereditary. ... > Judging by this it seems that there was a drop from Elros > to Vardamir but then the royal family held more or less > steady in longevity until Ancalimon... dwindling steadily > thereafter. Thus, I'll agree that it seems to have been > an instantaneous and level jump for the royal family... > though I'd still argue that this shows something other than > a hereditary effect - wherein I'd expect to see something > like Elros = 500, Vardamir (500 + 100) / 2 = 300, Amandil > (300 + 100) / 2 = 200, Elendil (200 + 100) / 2 = 150, and > then we MIGHT start to see intermarriage with other > descendants of Elros and a levelling off at 150 years... > rather than an immediate levelling at around 405 years. Heredity doesn't usually work that simply, and in any event Tolkien was an author, not a biologist. I don't think you can draw any meaningful conclusions about what he intended from the detailed numbers he provides. ... > > However, it seems reasonable to assume that most of the > > Kings and Queens had more than one child. If they acted > > like most royalty, their illegitimate children should be > > even more numerous, though that's not the kind of thing > > Tolkien was likely to mention. Over the thousands of > > years of Numenor's existence, these non-royal children > > should have produced a fairly large number of > > descendents. I'd be very surprised if none of these > > collateral descendents ever married back into the royal > > line. Most cultures don't consider it incest when the > > last common ancestor was more than a few generations > > back. > > Ah, you were referring to other Numenoreans descended from > Elros but no longer considered to be in the royal line? > Yes, of course such individuals would be married into the > line... but that began in the Second Age, long before the > Third Age marrying with those of non-Numenorean blood and The potential, at least, for intermarriage with non-Numenoreans dates back to 600 SA, when Numenorean ships started visiting the coasts. That was barely a hundred years after Sauron started stirring again. It probably increased in 1200 SA, when the Numenoreans started making permanent havens along the coasts. Intermixing surely got well underway in the 1800's SA, when they started establishing dominions on the coasts, which is precisely the same time that the Tale of Years says the shadow fell on Numenor. How long it took for mixing to drift back to the Throne is hard to guess. The noble classes were the ones with the most time and money to engage in travel, so I suspect they started intermixing fairly early. > thus not what I would consider "about the same time". When > 'the Faithful' fled Numenor for Middle Earth they were > apparently quite limited in numbers as they took only nine > ships... indicating that there were perhaps five hundred of > them at the outside. Yet this small population maintained > a distinctiveness from those around them for 3000+ years to > still be seen in Denethor and Faramir despite intermarriage > with other groups. That happened in 3320 SA, fully 2520 years after the Numenoreans first established dominions in those areas. The nine ships merely carried the last and most influential group of Faithful Numenorians to emigrate. As early as 2350 SA, Pelargir was a chief haven of the Faithful, and the trickle of Faithful emigrants expanded to a flood during the reign of Ar-Pharazon. Toward the end, in the Akkallabeth, Amandil referred to ships of the Faithful leaving Numenore on a daily basis. There was already a fairly large Numenorean population in place when his sons finally established the realms in exile. ... > > The life span of the rest of Numenoreans did not began > > declining until the return of the Shadow. That event > > coincides closely enough with the increased contact > > with other races for such mixing to be the mechanism for > > the decline. > > If we take Telemmaite as the start of the decline then it > began in 2526 SA. If we take the birth of Eldacar as the > start of the intermingling with other races then it began That's way too late. See above. > around 1300 TA. A difference of 2215 years. > > > Did anybody possess the longevity who wasn't one of the > > original Numenoreans or their descendants? That's a > > pretty hereditary trait. > > If I set up a trust account to pay $100 to every descendant > of mine until the money runs out does that make recipt of > $100 a "hereditary trait" of my descendants? Likewise, if > increased knowledge of health and possibly Valar given > blessing provide a group of people with increased longevity > is that really a 'hereditary trait'? Yes - that's social inheritance. There's also biological inheritance. How do you know that the Valar didn't give their gift by changing the genes of the people who recieved it? These are Valar, after all - it's not like such a thing would be too difficult for them. I personally can't see any particular reason for them bothering to renew the gift with each generation. If it was done genetically, there would be no need to act to renew the gift. In fact, a special act would be needed to withdraw it. ###### From: "Didoo the Purple" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> <7ohe63$hji$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net> Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Lines: 9 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 17:52:29 -0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.210.32.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@total.net X-Trace: news.total.net 934062743 216.210.32.66 (Sat, 07 Aug 1999 17:52:23 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 17:52:23 EDT Organization: TotalNet Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!remarQ-easT!remarQ60!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.total.net!not-for-mail The longer lifespan of the Edains is a gift of the Valas after the defeat of Morgoth. It concerns ALL Edains (or Numeroreans), as Conrad said, and he's dam' right. It has declined when the Edains turned back vs. the valas, and when bred with other humans in Gondor and Arnor. This is cleary written in the Silmarillion, there can't be any misinterpretation, so I don't see why this debate keeps going on. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 18:05:58 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 133 Message-ID: <7oib0n$959$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> <7ohe63$hji$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net> <7ohsi5$l7d$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC9822.8C98F963@wizard.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.3 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 934063959 9385 12.79.22.3 (7 Aug 1999 22:12:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 1999 22:12:39 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message news:37AC9822.8C98F963@wizard.net... > You said it got stronger during the early years of > Numenor. I call that an increase. If the period of time > over which it occured was finite, then it is a 'gradual' > increase by contrast to the instantaneous one that I > believe occurred. Alright, we seem to have different views of the term 'gradual' then. You are apparently saying anything other than an instantaneous change is 'gradual' while I believe that something which occurs over a brief period of time is not 'gradual'. In any case, if you look at my message you'll see that I said; "Thus, I'll agree that it seems to have been an instantaneous and level jump for the royal family..." Yet now you are asking me to defend my non-existent position that it was a "gradual" change (which again, I never said). > Of course; and of course not. In two different senses - > the original increase was unambiguously not hereditary Ok, we seem to agree on that. > In the long term, however, the "gift" was inherited only > by the ancestors of those to whom it was originally > given, and that's what I mean when I say it was > hereditary. > I personally can't see any particular reason for them > bothering to renew the gift with each generation. If it > was done genetically, there would be no need to act to > renew the gift. In fact, a special act would be needed to > withdraw it. Ok, so are you saying that it was not a matter of the amount of 'elven blood' they had but rather inheritance of the 'gift' given to all Numenoreans? I don't think of it as a 'genetic alteration' so much as a 'spiritual empowerment'... a stronger spirit keeping their bodies young and hale longer in similar though lesser fashion to the immortal elven spirits. Speculation of course, but the essential point is that they were GIVEN extended life rather than inheriting the characteristic solely from Elros's part-elven blood. > Heredity doesn't usually work that simply, and in any > event Tolkien was an author, not a biologist. I don't > think you can draw any meaningful conclusions about what > he intended from the detailed numbers he provides. No, but we can certainly use them to see when the lifespan was lengthened, by how much, when it started to dwindle, how quickly it decreased, et cetera. > The potential, at least, for intermarriage with non- > Numenoreans dates back to 600 SA, when Numenorean ships > started visiting the coasts. That was barely a hundred > years after Sauron started stirring again. It probably > increased in 1200 SA, when the Numenoreans started making > permanent havens along the coasts. Intermixing surely got > well underway in the 1800's SA, when they started > establishing dominions on the coasts, which is precisely > the same time that the Tale of Years says the shadow fell > on Numenor. Ah. I did not consider that their might be racial inter- mixing back in the early days of limited contact. Against this there seems to be; "'For the high men of Gondor already looked askance at the Northmen among them; and it was a thing unheard of before that the heir to the crown, or any son of the King, should wed one of lesser and alien race.'" "After the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men." Appendix A.iv Still, neither of these precludes the possibility that other strains of humanity had slowly worked their way into Numenorean blood from the earliest contacts. However, against this I would still place the evidence of Eldacar himself who was at least HALF of non-Numenorean ancestry and yet lived just as long as those before him... as did his descendants save for the same slow waning that had long been going on. Also Aragorn lived as long as the last Kings of Numenor, 210 years... reversing all the slow decline from that time to his own. This could be held a 'genetic throwback', but I think it more likely to be a special grace or renewal of the 'gift' in recognition of his great deeds. > That happened in 3320 SA, fully 2520 years after the > Numenoreans first established dominions in those areas. > The nine ships merely carried the last and most > influential group of Faithful Numenorians to emigrate. Good point. Making it difficult to accurately guage the numbers of 'Numenoreans' who settled in Middle Earth. Still, is there any actual evidence or statement that they dwindled in longevity due to the inter-mixing of races to contradict the evidence of Eldacar that they did not? > Yes - that's social inheritance. Heh, again semantics... I would not consider 'social inheritance' to be a "hereditary" trait. If some person was not KNOWN to be a descendant this social inheritance would fail to recognize them. Likewise the 'inheritance' is in various places implied to have diminished through the Numenoreans turning away from the Elves and Valar... as seem to you argue, this COULD have been just a coincidence - the theoretical inter-mixing with other humans happening to occur around the same time as the 'shadow' falling on Numenor. The assumption that it was due to the shadow might be incorrect. > How do you know that the Valar didn't give their gift by > changing the genes of the people who recieved it? I don't, any more than we can know that they did. As I've said I consider it a spiritual strengthening rather than a genetic trait and think there is alot of evidence against it acting like a genetic inheritance. ###### Message-ID: <37AD98EB.206C441D@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> <7ohe63$hji$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net> <7ohsi5$l7d$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC9822.8C98F963@wizard.net> <7oib0n$959$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 114 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.34 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 934123521 206.161.15.34 (Sun, 08 Aug 1999 10:45:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 10:45:21 EDT Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 10:49:15 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.corridex.com!hub1.ispnews.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message > news:37AC9822.8C98F963@wizard.net... > > > You said it got stronger during the early years of > > Numenor. I call that an increase. If the period of time > > over which it occured was finite, then it is a 'gradual' > > increase by contrast to the instantaneous one that I > > believe occurred. > > Alright, we seem to have different views of the term > 'gradual' then. You are apparently saying anything other > than an instantaneous change is 'gradual' while I believe > that something which occurs over a brief period of time is > not 'gradual'. In any case, if you look at my message Any process, no matter how fast, is gradual by comparison with an instantaneous transition, just as any finite quantity, no matter how big, is small by comparison with infinity. I never used the word "gradual" except in conjuction with such a comparison. > you'll see that I said; > > "Thus, I'll agree that it seems to have been an > instantaneous and level jump for the royal family..." > > Yet now you are asking me to defend my non-existent > position that it was a "gradual" change (which again, I > never said). You'd still restricted your acceptance to the royal family. If you're willing to concede that it could also have been instantaneous for the rest of the Numenoreans, than we'll be in agreement on this point. I'm not saying that we know it was instantaneous, merely that we have no evidence against the possibility. ... > > In the long term, however, the "gift" was inherited only > > by the ancestors of those to whom it was originally > > given, and that's what I mean when I say it was > > hereditary. > > > I personally can't see any particular reason for them > > bothering to renew the gift with each generation. If it > > was done genetically, there would be no need to act to > > renew the gift. In fact, a special act would be needed to > > withdraw it. > > Ok, so are you saying that it was not a matter of the > amount of 'elven blood' they had but rather inheritance of > the 'gift' given to all Numenoreans? I don't think of it > as a 'genetic alteration' so much as a 'spiritual > empowerment'... a stronger spirit keeping their bodies > young and hale longer in similar though lesser fashion to > the immortal elven spirits. Speculation of course, but the > essential point is that they were GIVEN extended life > rather than inheriting the characteristic solely from > Elros's part-elven blood. I think that there were two seperate effects; an increased longevity in those descended from the immortal Elves, and an increased longevity given as a gift to all Numenoreans. If that gift were not biological in nature, why would it be passed on to their children? Inheritance is biological or social, but it is not usually considered to be spiritual, according to those who believe in such things. In fact, one of the typical arguments give for the existence of a soul is the often startlingly wide differences between a child's personality, and that of the child's parents and siblings. ... > Ah. I did not consider that their might be racial inter- > mixing back in the early days of limited contact. Against > this there seems to be; > > "'For the high men of Gondor already looked askance at the > Northmen among them; and it was a thing unheard of before > that the heir to the crown, or any son of the King, should > wed one of lesser and alien race.'" I agree; intermixing in the royal line could not occur directly, with such prejudices in place. However, that doesn't rule out marrying someone of predominately but not completely Numenorian ancestry. > "After the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house > and other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with ^^^^ > that of lesser Men." > Appendix A.iv Implying that there had been some before. > Still, neither of these precludes the possibility that > other strains of humanity had slowly worked their way into > Numenorean blood from the earliest contacts. However, > against this I would still place the evidence of Eldacar > himself who was at least HALF of non-Numenorean ancestry > and yet lived just as long as those before him... as did > his descendants save for the same slow waning that had long > been going on. Also Aragorn lived as long as the last > Kings of Numenor, 210 years... reversing all the slow > decline from that time to his own. This could be held a > 'genetic throwback', but I think it more likely to be a > special grace or renewal of the 'gift' in recognition of > his great deeds. He was already showing great longevity at the time he did those great deeds. He was 87 years old at the time of the Quest, yet he was at worst middle-aged. I think from what Tolkien wrote that Eru arranged that in Aragorn there was a "chance meeting, as we say in Middle-Earth" of all the key genes that made him a throw-back. That was one of the things that made him capable of being the hero that he was. Arwen was also apparantly a throw-back to Luthien, though that doesn't require as much of a miracle - there were a lot fewer generations involved in her case. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:04:15 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <7okdmv$7cj$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> <7ohe63$hji$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net> <7ohsi5$l7d$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC9822.8C98F963@wizard.net> <7oib0n$959$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AD98EB.206C441D@wizard.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.27 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 934132255 7571 12.79.22.27 (8 Aug 1999 17:10:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 1999 17:10:55 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Lines: 80 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message news:37AD98EB.206C441D@wizard.net... > You'd still restricted your acceptance to the royal > family. Well, actually I said; >>"For though a long span of life had been granted to them, >>in the beginning thrice that of lesser Men..." >>Appendix A.i >>It seems from this and the other references you mention >>that they too increased in longevity either immediately >>or very quickly to 'thrice that of lesser Men'... so >>perhaps 200 to 300 years - with no apparent hereditary >>basis. > If you're willing to concede that it could also have been > instantaneous for the rest of the Numenoreans, than we'll > be in agreement on this point. Could have been. Might not have. Still don't see why this is at all important except in possibly supporting the case that the longevity was not hereditary in origin. > I think that there were two seperate effects; an > increased longevity in those descended from the immortal > Elves, and an increased longevity given as a gift to all > Numenoreans. I seem to recall that the longevity of the half-elven was itself referred to as a gift from the Valar - it almost must have been so in Arwen's case to explain her millenia of life despite an eventual choice to become human. Really, I think it more likely that all the various lifespans granted were at the design of the Valar mixed with a factor for 'medical technology' rather than heredity but the situation is not entirely clear in the texts. > If that gift were not biological in nature, why would it > be passed on to their children? Because the Valar had chosen to reward the three houses of the Edain and their descendants for their faithfulness and their fight against Morgoth. Now, they COULD have done this as some sort of biological change but... we would then expect it to act like a biological change, and we see in the cases of Eldacar, his immediate descendants, and Aragorn that it apparently did not. The origin of the longevity does not follow the pattern of biology (it does not come from Elros's elven blood alone), the start of the waning MAY follow a biological pattern if we assume that the Numenoreans who visited the mainland began to intermix and bring back genetic inheritance from other humans, and the later days of the waning (after Eldacar) are specifically said not to have waned any faster in offspring of half 'lesser' race than in those of fully Numenorean origin... again, not seeming to match a biological pattern. > He was already showing great longevity at the time he did > those great deeds. He was 87 years old at the time of the > Quest, yet he was at worst middle-aged. However, the Numenoreans continued hale for long years and then failed rapidly in the end. Aragorn could be 87 and 'at worst middle-aged' with a total lifespan of anywhere from 100 to 1000 if his body did not age rapidly until the end of his years. Whichever... I believe that the original point was that JRRT's work included an element "in which nobility was truly hereditary, being tied to elven ancestry". This is what I first disagreed with and I think the example of Eldacar alone argues strongly against it. He seems clearly to be of 'lesser blood' and just as clearly the 'rightful king'. ###### Message-ID: <37AE452A.68CB37AD@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> <7ohe63$hji$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net> <7ohsi5$l7d$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC9822.8C98F963@wizard.net> <7oib0n$959$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AD98EB.206C441D@wizard.net> <7okdmv$7cj$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.126 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 934167611 206.161.15.126 (Sun, 08 Aug 1999 23:00:11 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 23:00:11 EDT Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 23:04:10 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!howland.erols.net!hub1.ispnews.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: ... > Whichever... I believe that the original point was that > JRRT's work included an element "in which nobility was > truly hereditary, being tied to elven ancestry". This is > what I first disagreed with and I think the example of > Eldacar alone argues strongly against it. He seems clearly > to be of 'lesser blood' and just as clearly the 'rightful > king'. Notice that in writing that, I was concentrating my attention not on the distinction between Numenoreans and non-Numenoreans, but between those on the royal line (with it's Elven ancestry) and those who aren't. Eldacar's story actually supports my point of view. He was the legitimate heir because he traced his ancestry through Valacar all the way back to Elros, who was of mostly Elven ancestry. His success was, if anything, proof that the legitimacy of that hereditary claim to the throne (which was my point) was more important than the fact that his mother was of a "lesser race" (which speaks to your point). ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:19:58 -0400 Lines: 25 Message-ID: <37B22121.6E795383@erols.com> References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> <7ohe63$hji$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 4RUI8d3c//oDio+WlsKoodEAkffoXJogWewXk577J+w= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Aug 1999 02:56:22 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail "James Kuyper Jr." wrote: > However, it seems reasonable to assume > that most of the Kings and Queens had more than one child. If they acted > like most royalty, their illegitimate children should be even more > numerous, though that's not the kind of thing Tolkien was likely to > mention. The Numenoreans were supposed to be more noble then other humans. I mean, they did seem to be less concerned with political marriges. Luthien It's the end of the world as we know it, I feel fine! ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:27:13 -0400 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <37B222D5.46CEF078@erols.com> References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> <7ohe63$hji$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 4RUI8d3c//oGWrR8LmVwL8id48+gXcR9QHkYCBSCBaY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Aug 1999 02:56:28 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Didoo the Purple wrote: > The longer lifespan of the Edains is a gift of the Valas after the defeat of > Morgoth. It concerns ALL Edains (or Numeroreans), as Conrad said, and he's > dam' right. It was given to the DUN-edain. Oh, and it's "Valar", not "Valas". > It has declined when the Edains turned back vs. the valas, and > when bred with other humans in Gondor and Arnor. > Fear of death had something to do with it. Luthien It's the end of the world as we know it, I feel fine! ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:38:19 -0400 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <37B2CE49.83224A20@erols.com> References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> <7ohe63$hji$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net> <7ohsi5$l7d$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC9822.8C98F963@wizard.net> <7oib0n$959$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AD98EB.206C441D@wizard.net> <7okdmv$7cj$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: cTgvXZCSgs8Hm6WsGmi5zB+NpNwGYp3btbfZiyj3LjE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Aug 1999 15:20:33 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > I seem to recall that the longevity of the half-elven was > itself referred to as a gift from the Valar - it almost > must have been so in Arwen's case to explain her millenia > of life despite an eventual choice to become human. > I think she only lived a couple thousand years. Luthien It's the end of the world as we know it, I feel fine! ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in the Fourth Age Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:45:01 -0400 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <37B2CFDB.AF54C130@erols.com> References: <379F793A.79B6@bellsouth.net> <379E30DA.4408 <7o8p9a$fca$1@news.asu.edu> <7oaku5$rcv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7oas7l$2hop$1@newsie2.cent.net> <37AA4D88.E364D367@wizard.net> <7ofops$c9s$3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <37ABA118.31D72260@wizard.net> <7ohe63$hji$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC51D2.43B210C2@wizard.net> <7ohsi5$l7d$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AC9822.8C98F963@wizard.net> <7oib0n$959$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <37AD98EB.206C441D@wizard.net> <7okdmv$7cj$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: cTgvXZCSgs8+F18uEtN1v0uhjfkf4OiQdJ+F+72ZjX8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Aug 1999 15:20:35 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message > news:37AD98EB.206C441D@wizard.net... > > > He was already showing great longevity at the time he did > > those great deeds. He was 87 years old at the time of the > > Quest, yet he was at worst middle-aged. > > However, the Numenoreans continued hale for long years and > then failed rapidly in the end. Aragorn could be 87 Aragorn was 89-90 at the of the War of the Ring.