From: Sully@forsythe.stanford.edu ( Frannie) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Elves in Black Date: 3 Aug 1999 17:46:07 -0700 Lines: 71 Sender: guest@lindy.stanford.edu Message-ID: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lindy.stanford.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!nntp.stanford.edu!not-for-mail I used to frequent RABT, but left after I behaved badly here for no good reason.... Yes, I did apologize. Over a week ago, some nice neighbors dropped in as they periodically do to try and save my soul.. Bless their hearts. I enjoy their company tremendously, as well as the exchange we have over the differences in how we exercise our faith. One point I continue to make with these nice people is how hypocritical they are in how they present 'evidence' for their wild claims. We'd drifted into the creation myth of their church and I focused our discussion on one section they were pointing to that supposedly was 'scientifically supported.' Their 'scientific evidence' demonstrated so little understanding of the sciences that it was going to be useless to try and train them at that point. Instead I had a brainstorm and used their same 'evidence' to 'prove' Tolkien's creation myth, I read some of the Akabelleth(sorry bout spelling guess), then went on to point out that people with enough faith could likely treat Tolkien as truth also, and that Tolkien's mythology hangs together much more gracefully and consistently than theirs did. I had a great time, we parted on wonderful terms as usual, but it got me to thinking. All it would take would be another L Ron Hubbard type, no? People believe in all kinds of wacky things, in spite of every evidence against it (anybody ever listen to Art Bell?). What would it take to turn Tolkien's work into a religion in the future? NO NO NO, I don't want to DO it, just wondering what it would take. Whenever kooks make all kinds of fantastic claims, one thing they will tend to do is cite popular movies or the X-files as evidence. Since the Tolkien movie will be out relatively soon.... hmmm. My thought is that someone could fake up some letters from JRRT that claimed all of his manuscripts were not created from his imagination, but actually transcribed from the Elvish, and from the real Red Book of Westmarch. Disciples could date and place Middle Earth and assert that it is supported by the geological and archeological evidence. The differing writing styles of the translations of the Silmarillion vs Hobbit vs LOTR PROVE without a doubt that the translations come from different writers and languages, not just Tolkien's own hand. I haven't quite figured out how to deal with the published HoME series, though. It has to be explained as iterations of translation, I suppose. Tolkien was a professional linguist, of COURSE he could figure out how to translate the languages, but it took time. Then the good stuff: All the kook ideas that people have about ESP, aliens, Bigfoot, Nessie, etc, could all be unified to support the Middle Earth faith. Gee, could the Watcher In The Water make his way to Loch Ness? Are people being abducted by Elves??? Are UFO's elvish ships going to Amman, and what was that sail material discovered at Roswell? The reason nobody can find Bigfoot is because he's a shape changer!! He's one of the Beornings!!! The moon landings were definitely faked because when we tried to fly there, we almost crashed into Earendil's chariot. Elves in Black are covering up the truth. Is Morgoth returning on Jan 1 2000???? :^) Mike Sullivan ###### Path: news.mirkwood.quendi!pc2021.mirkwood.quendi!not-for-mail From: Sindar Elf <2021@mirkwood.quendi> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Date: 04 Aug 1999 17:54:03 +0200 Organization: Elves of Mirkwood Lines: 178 Sender: 2021@pc2021.mirkwood.quendi Message-ID: <6u7lnbczj8@pc2021.mirkwood.quendi> References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> I was expecting an Men in Black parody in Tolkienese, but spectacularly Sully@forsythe.stanford.edu ( Frannie) writes: > > I had a brainstorm and used their same 'evidence' to 'prove' > Tolkien's creation myth, How brainstorms can recognize hidden truths. It also happend a few decades ago to an well known (around here) philologist in England after decyphering some texts in an previously unknown writing. > faith could likely treat Tolkien as truth also, and that Tolkien's Sure. As it is (with an few deliberate modifications to conceal its true origin). > mythology hangs together much more gracefully and consistently > than theirs did. How could they have the cheek to call the lord of darkness (Morgoth) the light bringer (Lucifer)? Typical eastern humans. No elf would do that. > All it would take would be another L Ron Hubbard type, no? Nope. Stories can also simply spread by enough people becoming exposed to them. There was no LRH-equivalent in the spreading of your friends beliefs, was there? > People believe in all kinds of wacky things, in spite of every > evidence against it (anybody ever listen to Art Bell?). And people also deny many things, in spite of evidence for them, so long the evidence does not fit their preconcieved beliefs. > What would it take to turn Tolkien's work into a religion in the > future? Its rediscovery as real history (and not claimed imagination)? Actually that would make Tolkiens work (the translation) one particular entry point to the real history (which is not his work, but that of the Ainur). > one thing they will tend to do is cite popular movies or the > X-files as evidence. Since the Tolkien movie will be out relatively > soon.... hmmm. Movies spread stories further than books in todays illiterate world. > My thought is that someone could fake up some letters from JRRT > that claimed all of his manuscripts were not created from his > imagination, but actually transcribed from the Elvish, and from > the real Red Book of Westmarch. There exist no such letters. We elves clearly told him, that he is not allowed to leave any clear tracks to show that we are real, so he would have violated that in writing such letters*. * I am not breaking this rule, as no one believes Usenet posts anyway. We also demanded him to screw up the geography and stretch the limeline to make it look like an immagined world. Of course we are aware of his intentions to get the full story out, but in this case we trusted rightly in human fallability to prevent it (he after seeing it happen accepted our word on that one). > Disciples could date and place Middle Earth and assert that it > is supported by the geological and archeological evidence. The Assuming that they first accept it to be true. But all these elves, hobbits, orcs, trolls, dragons were an sufficient stab (or rather kick in the bum) at the human "reality" check system to ensure they would not believe it. > differing writing styles of the translations of the Silmarillion > vs Hobbit vs LOTR PROVE without a doubt that the translations come > from different writers and languages, not just Tolkien's own hand. Or rather Tolkien deliberately not being sure how to present his "inventions" to readers. Also it helped in making the right impression. > I haven't quite figured out how to deal with the published > HoME series, though. It has to be explained as iterations of > translation, I suppose. Nice guess. But you forget, that after getting partially to grip with the texts he was studying (the ones he found that pointed to us, not the known "invented" ones), he actually found some of us. So he had elves who could translate. The only thing he needed to invent were the fake geography and timeline, so some of thet shows in them. But mainly they were an elaborate setup, quasi an smokescreen. Even Christopher fell for them and went on to publish them. > Tolkien was a professional linguist, of COURSE he could figure > out how to translate the languages, but it took time. His hard work was in initial translation of the texts and then identifying where they came from. From then on he had good translators (or rather teachers of our languages). > Then the good stuff: All the kook ideas that people have about > ESP, aliens, Bigfoot, Nessie, etc, could all be unified to support > the Middle Earth faith. Some of them are broken (by many many retellings) versions of history. Tolkien had storytellers with significantly less retellings at his disposal (hey some of us were already alive then (at least for 3rd age), I am from "T.A.2021" in the transliterated timeline). > Are people being abducted by Elves??? Nope. We have neither need nor desire for this (we are peacefull, "good people" in Tolkiens own words). Sauron is the one who keeps on grabbing and torturing. After all he misses his army of orcs, so he is trying to duplicate Morgoths work. The UFOs are his present smoke screen. > The moon landings were definitely faked because when we tried > to fly there, we almost crashed into Earendil's chariot. Nope, they were real. Earendil simply got out of the way (you did, after all, pre-announce that exploit log enough in advance). > Elves in Black are covering up the truth. Nope. Nazgul in Black. Hey, man, Tolkien even says that they wear black, and you don't take the hint. 1. there are multiple actors, us elves, the dwarves, Sauron, etc. SO there is no clean target, tha tincreases confusion. 2. Human "reality" check is far more effective at covering up anything than even the best we (or even Sauron) have in our power. Also know as "Somebody Elses Problem" in literature. P.S. having ears _nowhere_ near as pointy as you make them out to be, also helps foil you. > Is Morgoth returning on Jan 1 2000???? Nope. Aug 11 1999, that is what the darkness is for. And it is Sauron returning, not Morgoth. > :^) Typical human, sees a glimpse of the truth and then immediately discards it as an joke. No wonder we are so successfull at hiding. Even them clunky dwarves manage to slip through. -- Sindar Elf, from the lands transliterated to "north Mirkwood" ###### From: Michael Sullivan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 08:37:50 +0000 Organization: Stanford University Lines: 37 Message-ID: <37A7FB99.2B87@forsythe.stanford.edu> References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> <7o9ek0$s64$1@weber.a2000.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprf05-sullivan-iici.stanford.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!nntp.stanford.edu!not-for-mail db wrote: > > Frannie wrote in message <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu>... > I'm really Mike, 'frannie' got in there accidentally. > > Your idea is not that farfetched. Together with my closest friend, also a > Tolkien fan, we've come to the conclusion that it's really just a matter of > time before a movement surfaces that holds Tolkiens works as gosple truth. > In fact, who will say what happens when the generations who lived during His > lifetime are old (or gone)? Already so much is subject to speculation, and > persons belonging to His inner circle are listened to as if they were > disciples, that it's not difficult at all to imagine later generations This is in a context, though, of meaning of the text as fiction. This in itself will become cult-like if it hasn't already. If you look at the foundations of other religions, there are faiths that are founded on far less. I can't imagine a religion emerging simply from the devotion of Tolkien fans. We're nuts, but not stupid. > regarding T's work as true myth and legends at the very least, and perhaps > as an alternative but quite possibly true piece of history. Crazier things > have happened. That's why when this occurred to me, I started to laugh, but in thinking it through it stopped being quite as funny as I thought The likely event to occur would be the design of some huckster out to get rich. There needs to be a little more time passing, a little more real distance from Tolkien and his family. Mike ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:22:32 +0200 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Message-ID: <7o9ek0$s64$1@weber.a2000.nl> References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: node11aae.a2000.nl X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 933772736 28868 24.132.26.174 (4 Aug 1999 13:18:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 1999 13:18:56 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.tli.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!colt.net!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!pascal.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Frannie wrote in message <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu>... Your idea is not that farfetched. Together with my closest friend, also a Tolkien fan, we've come to the conclusion that it's really just a matter of time before a movement surfaces that holds Tolkiens works as gosple truth. In fact, who will say what happens when the generations who lived during His lifetime are old (or gone)? Already so much is subject to speculation, and persons belonging to His inner circle are listened to as if they were disciples, that it's not difficult at all to imagine later generations regarding T's work as true myth and legends at the very least, and perhaps as an alternative but quite possibly true piece of history. Crazier things have happened. db ###### From: Michael Sullivan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:58:55 +0000 Organization: Stanford University Lines: 94 Message-ID: <37A81CA3.5301@forsythe.stanford.edu> References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> <6u7lnbczj8@pc2021.mirkwood.quendi> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprf05-sullivan-iici.stanford.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews2!newsfeed.stanford.edu!nntp.stanford.edu!not-for-mail Sindar Elf wrote: > > I was expecting an Men in Black parody in Tolkienese, but spectacularly > Sully@forsythe.stanford.edu ( Frannie) writes: > > > > I had a brainstorm and used their same 'evidence' to 'prove' > > Tolkien's creation myth, delete (took be a bit to 'get it' though, :^) > > Nope. Stories can also simply spread by enough people becoming > exposed to them. There was no LRH-equivalent in the spreading of > your friends beliefs, was there? Yes there was, but no matter, it's not the issue. snip > * I am not breaking this rule, as no one believes Usenet posts anyway. > > We also demanded him to screw up the geography and stretch the > limeline to make it look like an immagined world. Now, I think we have a rift in the religion. Is the map of Middle Earth literally true, or simply allegory. 'True' believers know that Middle Earth was a real place, a real geography and there is scientific evidence to back it up at the Middle Earth Sciences Institute. Any Elf claiming otherwise is either apostate, or a false elf. more snip > > > I haven't quite figured out how to deal with the published > > HoME series, though. It has to be explained as iterations of > > translation, I suppose. > > Nice guess. But you forget, that after getting partially to grip > with the texts he was studying (the ones he found that pointed to > us, not the known "invented" ones), he actually found some of us. > So he had elves who could translate. Yes, this makes more sense. This MUST be how it was. > > The only thing he needed to invent were the fake geography and > timeline, so some of thet shows in them. See above, apostate! snip > > P.S. having ears _nowhere_ near as pointy as you make them out to be, > also helps foil you. well, I didn't say you had pointy ears. > > > Is Morgoth returning on Jan 1 2000???? > > Nope. Aug 11 1999, that is what the darkness is for. > And it is Sauron returning, not Morgoth. Again, another rift, apostate elf. Shall I point out in Scripture where Elves believe in the final days, Morgoth will return to the circles of Ea to final battle with the Valar? But yes, I can see that August 11 could be the day.... > > > :^) > > Typical human, sees a glimpse of the truth and then immediately > discards it as an joke. No wonder we are so successfull at hiding. > Even them clunky dwarves manage to slip through. The rifts that we've exposed between the Sauronists and the Morgothi as to who is to return in the final days gave me some thoughts on how different sects will arise out of Tolk-inanity. :^) I just thought of it's name. There will be sects that arise, the Seekers will worship the Ents and find salvation in the search for the Entwives. Monastarys will arise in out of the way locations where latter day Rangers can be trained. Morgoth worshippers will be reviled, of course, and chased out of the church. Who's to say who are the true elves, the Quendi, or the Moraquendi? The Boromirists, a splinter group will claim that he was the true sacrifice among the nine, since Gandalf actually did return. :^) I have to keep sticking these in liberally... Mike ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?E=E4rendil?= the Mariner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 20:48:48 -0400 Organization: Havens of the River Sirion Lines: 13 Message-ID: <37A8DF6D.2C928D38@ma.ultranet.com> References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> Reply-To: sauron.darklord@bigfoot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fBFff6gfMAH7Ox5oEN+X+IXVulhrARy98j2vOMR/5rU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 1999 00:45:28 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Jan 1, 2001 Frannie wrote: > > Is Morgoth returning on Jan 1 2000???? > > :^) > > Mike Sullivan ###### From: Michael Sullivan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 10:05:18 +0000 Organization: Stanford University Lines: 30 Message-ID: <37A961B0.78EE@forsythe.stanford.edu> References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> <7obp95$1sa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprf05-sullivan-iici.stanford.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!nntp.stanford.edu!not-for-mail RLV wrote: > > In article <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu>, > Sully@forsythe.stanford.edu ( Frannie) wrote: > > I used to frequent RABT, but left after I behaved badly here > > for no good reason.... Yes, I did apologize. > > > > Over a week ago, some nice neighbors dropped in as they periodically > > do to try and save my soul.. Bless their hearts. > > > > > Is Morgoth returning on Jan 1 2000???? > > > > :^) > > You know, there is a NG called alt.religion.tolkienology (or something > similar). > Last time I checked (long ago) it was quite empty, but who knows, maybe > it is going to fill up soon. > > ;-) Yikes! I was only joking! My sister is a big JRRT fan like me, when I shared my note w/ her via email, she didn't laugh at all. She lives in SF and is convinced there are already small covens of people in the city believing themselves to be elves. Mike ###### From: RLV Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 10:33:09 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <7obp95$1sa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.78.156.242 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Aug 05 10:33:09 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows 95) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 TELECON, 1.0 x39.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.78.156.242 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDrlv6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu>, Sully@forsythe.stanford.edu ( Frannie) wrote: > I used to frequent RABT, but left after I behaved badly here > for no good reason.... Yes, I did apologize. > > Over a week ago, some nice neighbors dropped in as they periodically > do to try and save my soul.. Bless their hearts. > Is Morgoth returning on Jan 1 2000???? > > :^) You know, there is a NG called alt.religion.tolkienology (or something similar). Last time I checked (long ago) it was quite empty, but who knows, maybe it is going to fill up soon. ;-) R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tolkienulsya sam: Tolkieni drugogo" P.S.: And now my motto takes on a new meaning. Wow! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### Path: news.mirkwood.quendi!pc2021.mirkwood.quendi!not-for-mail From: Sindar Elf <2021@mirkwood.quendi> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Date: 05 Aug 1999 21:54:30 +0200 Organization: Elves of Mirkwood Lines: 94 Sender: 2021@pc2021.mirkwood.quendi Message-ID: <6uu2qe3sw9@pc2021.mirkwood.quendi> References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> <6u7lnbczj8@pc2021.mirkwood.quendi> <37A81CA3.5301@forsythe.stanford.edu> Michael Sullivan writes: > > Sindar Elf wrote: > > > > We also demanded him to screw up the geography and stretch the > > limeline to make it look like an immagined world. > > Now, I think we have a rift in the religion. Is the map > of Middle Earth literally true, or simply allegory. Neither. It is an smoke screen. Do not forget that ours is a religion of a hidden people. The "Tolkien" geography is to decept outsiders, so that we can recognize them. The initiates know that the stories took place in the geography everyone knows. > 'True' > believers know that Middle Earth was a real place, a real > geography and there is scientific evidence to back it up > at the Middle Earth Sciences Institute. Just shows how our carefully planted tracks work. > Any Elf claiming otherwise is either apostate, or a > false elf. Initiate. > > The only thing he needed to invent were the fake geography and > > timeline, so some of thet shows in them. > > See above, apostate! See above, initiate. > > P.S. having ears _nowhere_ near as pointy as you make them out to be, > > also helps foil you. > > well, I didn't say you had pointy ears. That was a side remark at some other r.a.b.t posters. > > > Is Morgoth returning on Jan 1 2000???? > > > > And it is Sauron returning, not Morgoth. > > Again, another rift, apostate elf. Shall I point out in > Scripture where Elves believe in the final days, Morgoth > will return to the circles of Ea to final battle with the > Valar? This is not yet the final one. Ony Sauron reving up to it. Morgoth has still got some time to wait before he returns. > The rifts that we've exposed between the Sauronists and the Morgothi > as to who is to return in the final days No rift. Just not yet the right time for Morgoth. > gave me some thoughts on > how different sects will arise out of Tolk-inanity. :^) I just > thought of it's name. Well, there exist those misguided false geography believers. > There will be sects that arise, the Seekers will worship > the Ents and find salvation in the search for the Entwives. Those who would confuse Yavanna with Eru are simply missguided. > Who's to say who are the true elves, the Quendi, or the > Moraquendi? Both. We represent the two ways. Learning from observation (Calaquendi living with the Valar) and learning from experience (Moriquendi living in ME). BTW: we are both Quendi. > :^) I have to keep sticking these in liberally... You are consistent, human. But in time you will see, assuming you live long enough. -- Sindar Elf, from the lands transliterated to "north Mirkwood" ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 18:45:52 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <7ocm4s$o20$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> <7o9ek0$s64$1@weber.a2000.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Aug 05 18:45:52 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x23.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail If that was to happen, their first 'Pope' could be Ar-Martinez the Testy. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: sonshi57@mindspring.com (Douglas Henderson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 19:07:09 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 15 Message-ID: <37afe053.13066594@news.mindspring.com> References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> <7o9ek0$s64$1@weber.a2000.nl> <7ocm4s$o20$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.11.13 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 5 Aug 1999 19:06:45 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On Thu, 05 Aug 1999 18:45:52 GMT, darat9999@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > If that was to happen, their first 'Pope' could be Ar-Martinez the >Testy. > > >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Share what you know. Learn what you don't. If you look back in the posts, you may find one marked "OT Peace" which you might find of interest. If you have already read it, please disregard this post. Thank you. ###### From: RLV Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 22:28:37 +0200 Organization: RLV Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <37A9F3F5.42A7@xxxx.xxx> References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> <7obp95$1sa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <37A961B0.78EE@forsythe.stanford.edu> Reply-To: xxxx@xxxx.xxx NNTP-Posting-Host: tn174-67.tinn.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!not-for-mail Michael Sullivan wrote: > > RLV wrote: > > > > In article <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu>, > > Sully@forsythe.stanford.edu ( Frannie) wrote: > > > Is Morgoth returning on Jan 1 2000???? > > > > > > :^) > > > > You know, there is a NG called alt.religion.tolkienology (or something > > similar). > > Last time I checked (long ago) it was quite empty, but who knows, maybe > > it is going to fill up soon. > > > > ;-) > > Yikes! I was only joking! Too late! It has started now. There is no way back. > My sister is a big JRRT fan > like me, when I shared my note w/ her via email, she > didn't laugh at all. She lives in SF and is convinced > there are already small covens of people in the city > believing themselves to be elves. Just "believing"? R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Call me Wingalam" ###### From: curucahm@aol.com (CURUCAHM) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 Aug 1999 23:47:04 GMT References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990805194704.10627.00001054@ng-ch1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.239.227!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >My thought is that someone could fake up some letters from JRRT >that claimed all of his manuscripts were not created from his >imagination, but actually transcribed from the Elvish, and from >the real Red Book of Westmarch. Ya know the best person for the job would be Douglas Monroe, author of the 21 lessons of Merlin. He's wonerful at faking religions. curucahm@aol.com "Blacksmiths don't do jsmith@usgs.gov Horse-shoes!!" ###### From: curucahm@aol.com (CURUCAHM) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 Aug 1999 23:56:51 GMT References: <37A961B0.78EE@forsythe.stanford.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990805195651.10627.00001067@ng-ch1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!205.231.82.12!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >Yikes! I was only joking! My sister is a big JRRT fan >like me, when I shared my note w/ her via email, she >didn't laugh at all. She lives in SF and is convinced >there are already small covens of people in the city >believing themselves to be elves. > >Mike Sounds to me like the one of the pagan subgroups, they call themselves Faeries. curucahm@aol.com "Blacksmiths don't do jsmith@usgs.gov Horse-shoes!!" ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Date: 07 Aug 1999 02:44:30 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 31 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uwvv8pggh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> <7obp95$1sa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <37A961B0.78EE@forsythe.stanford.edu> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Michael Sullivan writes: > > RLV wrote: > > > > You know, there is a NG called alt.religion.tolkienology (or something > > similar). > > Yikes! I was only joking! My sister is a big JRRT fan > like me, when I shared my note w/ her via email, she > didn't laugh at all. She lives in SF and is convinced > there are already small covens of people in the city > believing themselves to be elves. Well, no need to go to SF. Just try your trusty web! I did an search on Altavista for "real elves" and got 40 entries, including this one: http://www.fastlane.net/~worlow4/Lanthinel/tir.htm The bottem third will interest Tolkien fans (he gets mentionened) the most, but read the first bit to get the historic/mythologic background. If the SF stuff was "yikes" for you, this will be scary. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it ###### From: Michael Sullivan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elves in Black Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:34:27 -0800 Organization: Stanford University Lines: 52 Message-ID: <37ABD372.255C@forsythe.stanford.edu> References: <7o82gf$qq8@lindy.stanford.edu> <7obp95$1sa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <37A961B0.78EE@forsythe.stanford.edu> <6uwvv8pggh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: sullivan-isdn.stanford.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; U; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!nntp.stanford.edu!not-for-mail Neil Franklin wrote: > > Michael Sullivan writes: > > > > RLV wrote: > > > > > > You know, there is a NG called alt.religion.tolkienology (or something > > > similar). > > > > Yikes! I was only joking! My sister is a big JRRT fan > > like me, when I shared my note w/ her via email, she > > didn't laugh at all. She lives in SF and is convinced > > there are already small covens of people in the city > > believing themselves to be elves. > > Well, no need to go to SF. Just try your trusty web! > > I did an search on Altavista for "real elves" and got 40 entries, > including this one: > > http://www.fastlane.net/~worlow4/Lanthinel/tir.htm > > The bottem third will interest Tolkien fans (he gets mentionened) the > most, but read the first bit to get the historic/mythologic background. > > If the SF stuff was "yikes" for you, this will be scary. yep. I chuckled at first, seeing the mention of Tir Nan Nog, a popular after-school show in our household, but blanched at the line: "Many sought or were committed for psychological treatment." Tolk-inanity will likely germinate in small cults and secret societies awaiting only the passage of time and the deaths of eye-witnesses to become more and more resistant to debunking. Perhaps a charismatic charlatan will be unnecessary. Given the heated and heartfelt debates we all engage in over what we accept as FICTION, can you imagine the tone it will take when faith enters the mix? "balrogs have wings because I SAW one" "Tom Bombadil came to me, hi ho derry do, he's NOT Aule, he told me!" "Manwe revealed to me that you should send me $100 today." Mike