Message-ID: <37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net> From: Ilya Aksman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en]C-MOEATL (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: least favorite passages? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:38:31 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.27.16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 933604429 24.128.27.16 (Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:33:49 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:33:49 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Ok, we've listed our favorite quotes and books, what about the least favorite ones? For me it's the beginnings of both Book3 and Book4, I almost cringe when I read them because of the weak writing. I can almost hear the creaking of the engine as the author tries to start it after it was switched off for several years. I mean, places where Aragorn desides what to do, and then Frodo and Sam on Emin Muil. It's basically just lengthy dialog about "should we go there? no, let's go here". And Aragorn really doesn't look very bright when he tries to choose, I mean they lost so much time carrying boats around etc. when Merry and Pippin and the entire Quest were in mortal danger. Just curious if others had the same impression. Natalya. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:12:45 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 37 Message-ID: <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.22.140 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 933607145 6577 12.72.22.140 (2 Aug 1999 15:19:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Aug 1999 15:19:05 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Ilya Aksman wrote in message news:37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net... > Ok, we've listed our favorite quotes and books, what > about the least favorite ones? This is tough. It gets a bit easier for me if I specify sections of books. Specifically I least liked the start of Book I and the end of Book VI. The 'slow parts' essentially. Not that these are bad sections, just things I don't like as much as the rest of the story. :) > For me it's the beginnings of both Book3 and Book4, I > almost cringe when I read them because of the weak > writing. I can almost hear the creaking of the engine as > the author tries to start it after it was switched off > for several years. > I mean, places where Aragorn desides what to do, and then > Frodo and Sam on Emin Muil. It's basically just lengthy > dialog about "should we go there? no, let's go here". > And Aragorn really doesn't look very bright when he tries > to choose, I mean they lost so much time carrying boats > around etc. when Merry and Pippin and the entire Quest > were in mortal danger. Odd, I had no problem with either of these sections except for the sudden switch from one set of characters to another just when I was deeply involved with the first group. The time they took deciding on course of action didn't bother me as making the wrong decisions would have been costly and leaving immediately on any given course would not have greatly changed the outcome. They didn't seem to idle about an unnecessary length of time to me... rather just weighing the options properly. ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? References: <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <19990802114021.23715.00002213@ngol06.aol.com> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 23 Date: 2 Aug 1999 12:57:06 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 933624334 207.212.198.18 (Mon, 02 Aug 1999 13:05:34 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 13:05:34 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On 02 Aug 1999 15:40:21 GMT, McREsq wrote: > I'm on the same page as others here. I think some Aragorn's scenes were weak. > Several times he comes across as not knowing what to do. He's the heir of > Elendil, he's travelled the known world for decades, served in Rohan and > Gondor, wooed the hottest little chippie to come along since Luthien, yet he > seems to get all confused when decisions fall on his shoulders. That's a little unfair. He wasn't *supposed* to be the leader--that's what Gandalf was for, and he was 99% sure that nothing would happen to Gandalf. Then Gandalf gets killed. Aragorn gets them to Lorien so that he can sit down and collect his thoughts, and just when he's starting to get used to leading the Fellowship, Frodo and Sam disappear. He gets confused and comes across as not knowing what to do. Well, what's he supposed to do? The whole point of this operation was to get the Ring into Mount Doom, and the guy who was carrying the Ring just left! He doesn't really have a clear mission. Of course, then Saruman's Orcs show up and give him a clear mission. Now that he finally has a well-defined objective, he pulls it together. BTW, what's a 'chippie'? ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Aug 1999 15:40:21 GMT References: <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990802114021.23715.00002213@ngol06.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.239.227!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I'm on the same page as others here. I think some Aragorn's scenes were weak. Several times he comes across as not knowing what to do. He's the heir of Elendil, he's travelled the known world for decades, served in Rohan and Gondor, wooed the hottest little chippie to come along since Luthien, yet he seems to get all confused when decisions fall on his shoulders. I think he should have come across as a stronger leader than he did. He certainly begins to rise to the occassion at Helm's Deep and thereafter, but he falls short between Imladris and Helm's Deep. Russ ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?E=E4rendil?= the Mariner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 17:28:32 -0400 Organization: Havens of the River Sirion Lines: 14 Message-ID: <37A60D7A.A932B410@ma.ultranet.com> References: <19990802162531.21498.00003434@ngol04.aol.com> <19990802170644.21451.00006147@ng-fr1.aol.com> Reply-To: sauron.darklord@bigfoot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: z5rlMAWX98/UfoFKCGAPNrEZ05wKiUcCdrzVybnqqDs= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Aug 1999 21:25:49 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!feeder.qis.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Yeah, its kinda out of place when you consider that Arwen wouldn't even talk to Aragorn until 29 years after they met. FernWithy wrote: > >>BTW, what's a 'chippie'? > > > >A babe, a chick, a hottie > > Don't know what context you're used to, but I've always heard "chippie" in this > regard with the added context of being... well, to be generous "easy." If not > downright, er, commericial. > ###### From: robfarm1@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 20:01:23 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <7o4tec$4r5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <19990802114021.23715.00002213@ngol06.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.15.90.2 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Aug 02 20:01:23 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.04 (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x22.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 208.15.90.2 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDrobfarm1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.unisource.nl!gate.news.unisource.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!solomon.io.com!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <19990802114021.23715.00002213@ngol06.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >He > certainly begins to rise to the occassion at Helm's Deep and thereafter, but he > falls short between Imladris and Helm's Deep. > > Russ > I think his hesitancy and indecision during this period of time are a reflection of the shock he feels after the loss of Gandalf. He is constantly saying "Gandalf most likely had a plan, but darned if I know what it was..." For good or ill, he had depended on Gandalf to get them thru to the point where the Fellowship would have to split up anyway. With Gandalf gone, the leadership of the group has fallen to him, and before he was ready (in his own mind, anyway) for it. Actually, he does pretty well for himself and the others, except for that foolishness when the Fellowship broke, when even elves it seems can lose their common sense...Once he was relieved of the burden of watching out for Frodo and the Ring, he was able to concentrate on Rohan and Gondor. -- Lorri Scratchbottom Shires http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/4242 Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Aug 1999 20:25:31 GMT References: <7o4tec$4r5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990802162531.21498.00003435@ngol04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7o4tec$4r5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, robfarm1@my-deja.com writes: >I think his hesitancy and indecision during this period of time are a >reflection of the shock he feels after the loss of Gandalf. He is >constantly saying "Gandalf most likely had a plan, but darned if I know >what it was..." For good or ill, he had depended on Gandalf to get them >thru to the point where the Fellowship would have to split up anyway. >With Gandalf gone, the leadership of the group has fallen to him, and >before he was ready (in his own mind, anyway) for it. > >Actually, he does pretty well for himself and the others, except for >that foolishness when the Fellowship broke, when even elves it seems can >lose their common sense...Once he was relieved of the burden of watching >out for Frodo and the Ring, he was able to concentrate on Rohan and >Gondor. > I basically replied to this point in another message in this thread. Rather than repeat it verbatim here, please feel free to reply to my other message. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Aug 1999 20:25:31 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990802162531.21498.00003434@ngol04.aol.com> Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes: >That's a little unfair. He wasn't *supposed* to be the leader--that's what >Gandalf was for, and he was 99% sure that nothing would happen to Gandalf. >Then Gandalf gets killed. Aragorn gets them to Lorien so that he can sit >down and collect his thoughts, and just when he's starting to get used to >leading the Fellowship, Frodo and Sam disappear. He gets confused and comes >across as not knowing what to do. Well, what's he supposed to do? The >whole point of this operation was to get the Ring into Mount Doom, and the >guy who was carrying the Ring just left! He doesn't really have a clear >mission. > >Of course, then Saruman's Orcs show up and give him a clear mission. Now >that he finally has a well-defined objective, he pulls it together. I understand that he wasn't the leader of the Fellowship until after Gandalf died. Although, the Fellowship initial took his route over Caradhras and not Gandalf's preferred route through Moria. My point is that Aragorn was supposed to be a Leader (generically). A true strong leader would have leapt into the void left by the fall of Gandalf, taken charge and gotten the company through. A real leader wouldn't go through these mamby-pamby "oh woe is me what am I going to do" scenes that Aragorn went through (ok, I'm overstating the case). >BTW, what's a 'chippie'? A babe, a chick, a hottie Russ ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Aug 1999 21:06:44 GMT References: <19990802162531.21498.00003434@ngol04.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990802170644.21451.00006147@ng-fr1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >>BTW, what's a 'chippie'? > >A babe, a chick, a hottie Don't know what context you're used to, but I've always heard "chippie" in this regard with the added context of being... well, to be generous "easy." If not downright, er, commericial. --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: "Deborah Pate" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:57:51 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7o55h6$ntu$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <19990802162531.21498.00003434@ngol04.aol.com> <19990802170644.21451.00006147@ng-fr1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-249.name33.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news4.svr.pol.co.uk 933632358 24510 62.136.176.249 (2 Aug 1999 22:19:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Aug 1999 22:19:18 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail FernWithy: > >>BTW, what's a 'chippie'? > > > >A babe, a chick, a hottie > > Don't know what context you're used to, but > I've always heard "chippie" in this regard > with the added context of being... well, to > be generous "easy." If not downright, er, > commericial. Oh! Here in the UK it means a carpenter. I'm so glad I've never had any woodwork needs while in America... Deborah Pate ###### From: "Deborah Pate" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:00:39 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7o55h7$ntu$2@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-249.name33.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news4.svr.pol.co.uk 933632359 24510 62.136.176.249 (2 Aug 1999 22:19:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Aug 1999 22:19:19 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Ilya Aksman: > Ok, we've listed our favorite quotes and > books, what about the least favorite ones? Well, I don't like the Scouring of the Shire, as I've said elsewhere. But I also have a least favourite sentence, from the Council of Elrond: "That is the doom which we must deem." Naff, or what? Deborah Pate ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 03 Aug 1999 02:51:38 GMT References: <7o55h6$ntu$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990802225138.00347.00001799@ng-fo1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >Oh! Here in the UK it means a carpenter. I'm >so glad I've never had any woodwork needs >while in America... > > I wouldn't worry. I think most people here would kind of go "Huh?" The context I know it from is my grandmother and my great-grandmother -- it's archaic Yankee slang, though Stephen King does use it a couple of times. Maine drops things a little slower than the rest of the country, methinks. --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37a67965.3956447@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <19990802162531.21498.00003434@ngol04.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-58.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 05:14:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 933657375 207.212.198.18 (Mon, 02 Aug 1999 22:16:15 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 22:16:15 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On 02 Aug 1999 20:25:31 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >My point is that Aragorn was supposed to be a Leader (generically). A true >strong leader would have leapt into the void left by the fall of Gandalf, taken >charge and gotten the company through. A real leader wouldn't go through these And that's what he did. He didn't do it *immediately*, but he did it. Keep in mind that this was the most stressful mission of his life, and the objectives weren't entirely clear. >mamby-pamby "oh woe is me what am I going to do" scenes that Aragorn went >through (ok, I'm overstating the case). > >>BTW, what's a 'chippie'? > >A babe, a chick, a hottie Ah. All right, if you insist on describing Arwen that way, go ahead. Is 'chippie' gender-specific? You equate it with 'babe' and 'chick', which are, but also with 'hottie', which isn't. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Subject: Re: least favorite passages? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: harper.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) References: <19990802162531.21498.00003434@ngol04.aol.com> <19990802170644.21451.00006147@ng-fr1.aol.com> <37A60D7A.A932B410@ma.ultranet.com> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:05:13 GMT Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews2!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth sauron.darklord@bigfoot.com: > Yeah, its kinda out of place when you consider that Arwen wouldn't > even talk to Aragorn until 29 years after they met. Of course, considering her age, not to mention typical Elvish wisdom and caution and all, maybe that would count as "easy". :) ("Like, oh mygod, they had only, like, met each other 29 years earlier and then, like, she's already, like, holding his hand and promising to marry him. She is, like, such a chippie.") For the record, I'd never heard of "chippie" before, either. Steuard Jensen ###### Message-ID: <37A741F7.A85B11F9@mediaone.net> From: Ilya Aksman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en]C-MOEATL (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? References: <37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net> <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 49 Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 15:24:39 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.27.16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 933707996 24.128.27.16 (Tue, 03 Aug 1999 15:19:56 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 15:19:56 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > They didn't seem to idle > about an unnecessary length of time to me... rather just > weighing the options properly. Ok, I checked the book and that's the timeframe: 1) Aragorn heard the horn of Baromir, run a mile to that place (10 min ) 2) He talked to Boromir, then sat around until G&L got there (10 min) 3) Together they searched the bodies of orcs, then made a bier for Boromir (1hr) 4) G&L went to the boats (1 mile) then paddled them back. A stayed behind. (30-40 min) 5) They put Boromir into the boat and sang a funeral song for him (20 min) 6) They paddled a boat back to Part Galen against the stream, for 1 mile (30 min) 7) They looked around the place, then tucked away the boat and other stuff, then run back to the place where Boromir died (40 min) It sums up to 3.5 hours of running around, not much really, but they end up being a DAY behind orcs, notwithstanding their speed which they felt should be remembered in legends. That was always a puzzle for me: were orcs much tougher then humans, dwarves and Elves? They certaily could run fast... But going back to the timeframe: with all due respect to Boromir they spent too much time on him, it seems. Especially the bit when A stayed behind while L&G brought the boats back. He could go with them and search the ground then, and deside what to do, it would have saved them about an hour. Boromir was a great man but a live dog is better than a dead lion, and their friends were captured and so much was at stake! But anyways, that extra hour wouldn't probably matter because they were going much slower than orcs, see above. Ok, I see that they weren't dawdling but it felt like it when I read that part... Natalya. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:12:51 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 120 Message-ID: <7o7tdj$7ig$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net> <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37A741F7.A85B11F9@mediaone.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.254 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 933722355 7760 12.79.24.254 (3 Aug 1999 23:19:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Aug 1999 23:19:15 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!attmtf!ip.att.net!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Ilya Aksman wrote in message news:37A741F7.A85B11F9@mediaone.net... > 1) Aragorn heard the horn of Baromir, run a mile to that > place (10 min ) The text says, "...a mile maybe..." but ten minutes seems an awfully long time for Aragorn to run a mile... >I< can do that, and no-one calls me 'Strider' or 'longshanks'. I would consider five minutes reasonable. Besides which, he could hardly have made a decision BEFORE he ran the mile and found Boromir. > 2) He talked to Boromir, then sat around until G&L got > there (10 min) Again, this seems longer than need be to me. The precise time is not specified so it might have been anywhere from one minute to thirty. If we assume that Aragorn was NOT indecisive then we might use the 1 minute figure for our further calculations. > 3) Together they searched the bodies of orcs, then made > a bier for Boromir (1hr) "Quickly they searched the bodies of the Orcs" "...upon this rough bier..." They did not idle about. An hour doesn't seem unreasonable but it could have been done in 45 minutes. In any case, I'd argue that learning about the nature of your enemy and burying a fallen comrade are the sort of things a good leader WOULD do rather than 'weak' indecisiveness. > 4) G&L went to the boats (1 mile) then paddled them back. > A stayed behind. (30-40 min) "...Legolas and Gimli hastened back..." "...paddling two boats swiftly along the shore." Again, they were apparently hurrying. I'd think this could be done in 20 minutes without great difficulty. > 5) They put Boromir into the boat and sang a funeral song > for him (20 min) That would be a very long song. Still, they were silent for a time remembering him. Fifteen minutes perhaps? > 6) They paddled a boat back to Part Galen against the > stream, for 1 mile (30 min) It was upstream but still half an hour seems extreme. I'd say that it could be done in 20 minutes at the outside. > 7) They looked around the place, then tucked away the > boat and other stuff, then run back to the place where > Boromir died (40 min) Note that this is the point where Aragorn actually idled about pondering what to do, "...for a moment." Again, 40 minutes to stow a couple of boats and run a mile? Twenty seems excessive to me. > It sums up to 3.5 hours of running around, Or 2.1 hours by my estimates. Between one and five would likely be the EXTREME ranges and I don't think it would have made much difference if they had left immediately or five hours later. > not much really, but they end up being a DAY behind orcs, > notwithstanding their speed which they felt should be > remembered in legends. > That was always a puzzle for me: were orcs much tougher > then humans, dwarves and Elves? They certaily could run > fast... Orcs did apparently travel remarkably quickly. This is mentioned in both The Hobbit and LotR and has been discussed here a number of times. To all appearances Orcs could generally outmarch ANYONE. > Especially the bit when A stayed behind while L&G > brought the boats back. He could go with them and search > the ground then, and deside what to do, it would have > saved them about an hour. Hindsight is 20/20. Until Gimli and Legolas came back and told him that one of the boats was missing he had no reason to go and check the tracks there. > Boromir was a great man but a live dog is better than a > dead lion, and their friends were captured and so much > was at stake! Precisely. So VERY much was at stake. With Frodo went the fate of the entire world. If Aragorn had just gone charging off after the first course of action that he could identify (go after the Orcs) and it turned out Frodo had been captured by Orcs that went in a different direction... that would have been an astoundingly bad leadership move. Instead he spent enough time examining the situation to determine that Frodo and Sam had left on their own. > But anyways, that extra hour > wouldn't probably matter because they were going much > slower than orcs, see above. > Ok, I see that they weren't dawdling but it felt like it > when I read that part... Heh, I've been responding to this as I read and now it seems we come out in much the same position. Yes, they spent some time doing other things but it really seems to have had no great effect on the outcome... EXCEPT that they were better informed about what had happened and they gave Boromir a decent funeral. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <37a7cbc9.74131181@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net> <7o55h7$ntu$2@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-72.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 18 Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 05:12:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 933744106 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 03 Aug 1999 22:21:46 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 22:21:46 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!128.32.206.55!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:00:39 +0100, "Deborah Pate" wrote: >Ilya Aksman: >> Ok, we've listed our favorite quotes and >> books, what about the least favorite ones? > >Well, I don't like the Scouring of the Shire, >as I've said elsewhere. But I also have a >least favourite sentence, from the Council >of Elrond: > >"That is the doom which we must deem." > >Naff, or what? I like it. It's clever. ###### Message-ID: <37A84434.8C52A614@mediaone.net> From: Ilya Aksman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en]C-MOEATL (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? References: <37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net> <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37A741F7.A85B11F9@mediaone.net> <7o7tdj$7ig$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 109 Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 09:46:28 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.27.16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 933774103 24.128.27.16 (Wed, 04 Aug 1999 09:41:43 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 09:41:43 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > The text says, "...a mile maybe..." but ten minutes seems > an awfully long time for Aragorn to run a mile... >I< can > do that, and no-one calls me 'Strider' or 'longshanks'. I > would consider five minutes reasonable. Yes, but he was not running on jogging-track, he was running through cross-country, down the mountain and thru forest. I'd still say 8-10 min. > > > > 2) He talked to Boromir, then sat around until G&L got > > there (10 min) > > Again, this seems longer than need be to me. You're right. L&G were not that far either, and they too sped towards the horn. Could be 1 min really. > > "Quickly they searched the bodies of the Orcs" > "...upon this rough bier..." > They did not idle about. An hour doesn't seem unreasonable > but it could have been done in 45 minutes. I forgot to add: they carried Boromir to the River and it took some time because he was heavy. There were about 20 orcs, about 7 orcs for each, say 30 sec per orc: could take 5 min. Legolas also picked up arrows. But the bier could be lengthy business: axe is a slow tool to hack through wood, even for an experienced wood-cutter. It takes an hour to fell down a very thin tree. And Gimli told to Fangron: "My axe is for orc-necks, not for trees" so he wasn't too experienced. And they had to cut down fresh branches because those on the ground are usually rotten. I'd still say 1 hour. > > > "...Legolas and Gimli hastened back..." > "...paddling two boats swiftly along the shore." > > Again, they were apparently hurrying. I'd think this could > be done in 20 minutes without great difficulty. > Agree. > > 5) They put Boromir into the boat and sang a funeral song > > for him (20 min) > > That would be a very long song. Still, they were silent > for a time remembering him. Fifteen minutes perhaps? > That song is very long indeed. I tried to sing it to myself, took 4 min, and funeral songs are usually slow, not quite "Old McDonald had a farm". They also had to put him into a boat and arrange everything neatly. I'd still say 20 min. > > It was upstream but still half an hour seems extreme. I'd > say that it could be done in 20 minutes at the outside. > Oh well, for me it would take an hour :) > Note that this is the point where Aragorn actually idled > about pondering what to do, "...for a moment." Again, 40 > minutes to stow a couple of boats and run a mile? Twenty > seems excessive to me. > > > Or 2.1 hours by my estimates. Ok, I got down to 3 hrs. > > Orcs did apparently travel remarkably quickly. To all appearances Orcs > could generally outmarch ANYONE. I wonder who Orcs really were? They say corrupted Elves but they might be cross-bred btw corrupted Elves and horses, or maybe ostriches? > Hindsight is 20/20. Until Gimli and Legolas came back and > told him that one of the boats was missing he had no reason > to go and check the tracks there. > I checked it and it appears A. was going to go back anyway, at least for their baggage. He was staying behind to watch Boromir, but what the heck could have happened to Boromir anyway? I mean, what could be worse than what already had happened? > Heh, I've been responding to this as I read and now it > seems we come out in much the same position. Yes, we got to the same result but it's the process which is fun, he-he-he :) Natalya. ###### From: creoso79@aol.com (Creoso 79) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 04 Aug 1999 16:11:16 GMT References: <37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990804121116.00359.00002276@ng-fo1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >Ok, we've listed our favorite quotes and books, what about the least >favorite ones? I've always disliked the celebration chapter ("the Field of Cormallen") and skipped over it in my re-reads... its just too cloying or something when they are all shouting things like, "Long live the Halflings, Praise them with Great Praise!" and Frodo and Sam are set upon the throne by their ol' buddy Strider, and it's all hand-shaking and back-slapping going around... it's annoying. ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 11:50:44 -0400 Lines: 13 Message-ID: <37A8614C.3CD8397E@erols.com> References: <19990802162531.21498.00003434@ngol04.aol.com> <19990802170644.21451.00006147@ng-fr1.aol.com> <37A60D7A.A932B410@ma.ultranet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: 3Sfh+bRIy5yuGayw3gdIFqSKAdf7NvvhULhIh//AoM0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 1999 08:15:12 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Eärendil the Mariner wrote: > Yeah, its kinda out of place when you consider that Arwen wouldn't even talk to > Aragorn until 29 years after they met. > > I don't they had much chance to meet. I mean, he started his journeys and she mostly lived in Lothlorien. ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 03:12:36 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Wed Aug 4 20:25:07 1999 References: <37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-001mnminnp054.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 5 Aug 1999 03:16:24 GMT Message-ID: <37a90099.92808870@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:38:31 -0400, Ilya Aksman wrote: >Ok, we've listed our favorite quotes and books, what about the least >favorite ones? >For me it's the beginnings of both Book3 and Book4, I almost >cringe when I read them because of the weak writing. I can >almost hear the creaking of the engine as the author tries >to start it after it was switched off for several years. >I mean, places where Aragorn desides what to do, and then Frodo and Sam >on Emin Muil. It's basically just lengthy >dialog about "should we go there? no, let's go here". >And Aragorn really doesn't look very bright when he tries >to choose, I mean they lost so much time carrying boats >around etc. when Merry and Pippin and the entire Quest >were in mortal danger. >Just curious if others had the same impression. Actually, the chapter with Sam and Frodo in the Emyn Muil is one of my favorites, perhaps because it gives us a rare glimpse into their friendship. I love the way they are with each other, especially when Frodo says, "Sam, you old ass." Very chummy and all. And I mean this in a strictly non-tilde sense. ;-) All Homage To The Elton!!! The Elton John Worship Page - NEW URL http://eltonworship.virtualave.net ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 Aug 1999 22:49:54 GMT References: <37AA8680.3367@frodo.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990805184954.23401.00003116@ngol07.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <37AA8680.3367@frodo.net>, Jereeza writes: >Creoso 79 wrote: >> >> >Ok, we've listed our favorite quotes and books, what about the least >> >favorite ones? >> >> I've always disliked the celebration chapter ("the Field of Cormallen") and >> skipped over it in my re-reads... its just too cloying or something when >they >> are all shouting things like, "Long live the Halflings, Praise them with >Great >> Praise!" and Frodo and Sam are set upon the throne by their ol' buddy >Strider, >> and it's all hand-shaking and back-slapping going around... it's annoying. > >HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! I LOVE that passage!!! > I have to agree with Creoso. That scene always reminds me of the final scene in Star Wars, with everyone standing around smiling, trumpets blaring, etc. I didn't like thescene in LOTR or SW. Russ ###### From: rlhancock@earthlink.net (Diane Hancock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 23:07:05 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Cupertino Site Lines: 17 Message-ID: <37aa17e4.3800267105@news.corp.hp.com> References: <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <19990802114021.23715.00002213@ngol06.aol.com> <37A8466B.8532E72B@mediaone.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ntdpc111.pa.itc.hp.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.cup.hp.com!not-for-mail On Wed, 04 Aug 1999 09:55:55 -0400, Ilya Aksman wrote: > >Well, that was what I call a cheesy passage, but for me nothing can beat "Sam >and Frodo having fun with a rope" thing (In the beginning of "Taming of >Smeagol"). They are discussing how to get down a cliff for 6 pages, and how! LOL, you're right! My son reads a little LOTR every night before he goes to sleep. I remember when he was reading that chapter -- every morning I'd ask him what was happening in the book, and every morning it was the same answer: "Sam and Frodo are still trying to get down that cliff." The morning he announced that they finally made it, we both cheered! Diane H. ###### From: Varnast Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 23:10:47 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7od5lg$3ts$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.92.197.38 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Aug 05 23:10:47 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 95; FREESERVE_IE5) X-Http-Proxy: NetCache@www-cache.pol.co.uk: Version 3.4D6, 1.1 x24.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 62.136.181.235, 195.92.197.38 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDv_karnassos Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net>, Ilya Aksman wrote: > Ok, we've listed our favorite quotes and books, what about the least > favorite ones? Personally, I find the second half of 'The Steward and the King' rather dull (after the sudden Faramir-Eowyn romance - they were probably bored and in need of something to cheer themselves up). The Company seems to mill about rather aimlessly, and as for the bit when Aragorn and Gandalf find a sapling of the One Tree... well, it's such a bland, whiter-than-white sequence, rather sudden. We aren't really allowed to register the significance of the find. The dialogue grates a bit, with lots of 'I'm a King' angst from Aragorn and some 'I'm Retired' sage from Gandalf, and then they find a tree. And that makes everything alright. -- "Don't worry, it's only a flesh wound - oh." Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: Mustardseed Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:17:08 -0400 Organization: Yale University Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <37AA8680.3367@frodo.net> <19990805184954.23401.00003116@ngol07.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mercury.cis.yale.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: ewo3@mercury.cis.yale.edu In-Reply-To: <19990805184954.23401.00003116@ngol07.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ycc.yale.edu!mercury.cis.yale.edu!ewo3 On 5 Aug 1999, McREsq wrote: > In article <37AA8680.3367@frodo.net>, Jereeza writes: > > >> I've always disliked the celebration chapter ("the Field of Cormallen") and > >> skipped over it in my re-reads... its just too cloying or something when > >they > >> are all shouting things like, "Long live the Halflings, Praise them with > >Great > >> Praise!" and Frodo and Sam are set upon the throne by their ol' buddy > >Strider, > >> and it's all hand-shaking and back-slapping going around... it's annoying. > > > > I have to agree with Creoso. Me too... especially the part about tears the wine of blessedness, etc.-- "You will notice already that Mr. Tolkien was not *quite* so prosy as he liked to believe, also that he was very fond of the word "praise"." > That scene always reminds me of the final scene in > Star Wars, with everyone standing around smiling, trumpets blaring, etc. I > didn't like thescene in LOTR or SW. > did you know that that scene was copied almost verbatim (what is the cinematographic equivalent of "verbatim"?) from a film by Leni Riefenstahl about the 1936 Olympics in Germany-- the scene being the winning German athletes getting cheered on by Nazis of the "Thousand Year Reich"? I've never seen the Riefenstahl, but this is what I've heard: you know those big huge pillars Leia et al stand in front of waiting for Luke, Han, etc to advance? Just put some big mother swastikas on them, and some swastika banners in the auditorium, and presto. An interesting directorial choice by Lucas. Was he really serious? ###### From: Jereeza Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 23:53:52 -0700 Organization: FFR Lines: 13 Message-ID: <37AA8680.3367@frodo.net> References: <37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net> <19990804121116.00359.00002276@ng-fo1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ar2-p92-ri.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 933889745 30517 195.29.232.220 (5 Aug 1999 21:49:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 1999 21:49:05 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!205.219.255.8!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Creoso 79 wrote: > > >Ok, we've listed our favorite quotes and books, what about the least > >favorite ones? > > I've always disliked the celebration chapter ("the Field of Cormallen") and > skipped over it in my re-reads... its just too cloying or something when they > are all shouting things like, "Long live the Halflings, Praise them with Great > Praise!" and Frodo and Sam are set upon the throne by their ol' buddy Strider, > and it's all hand-shaking and back-slapping going around... it's annoying. HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! I LOVE that passage!!! ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 06 Aug 1999 17:44:37 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990806134437.25749.00005788@ng-fp1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nntp.psi.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail > Just put some big mother swastikas on them, and some swastika >banners in the auditorium, and presto. An interesting directorial choice >by Lucas. Was he really serious? Well, given that he dressed the *Empire* up as Nazis (with jackboots and those stupid half-helmets), and called their foot soldiers "stormtroopers," and had them led by people who apparently could not abide having any non-human, non-male, or non-white creatures on their side (only Vader deals with non-humans -- the bounty hunters -- and the rest of the Empire can't imagine why he would do such a thing), my guess is that the end of SW was just a standard military celebration scene, and could probably be found in many places other than Riefenstahl. There is an explicit and none-too-subtle Nazi connection, but it's not on the side of the Alliance. --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: Mustardseed Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 20:00:02 -0400 Organization: Yale University Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <19990806134437.25749.00005788@ng-fp1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mars.its.yale.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: ewo3@mars.its.yale.edu In-Reply-To: <19990806134437.25749.00005788@ng-fp1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!130.132.143.65!news.ycc.yale.edu!mars.its.yale.edu!ewo3 On 6 Aug 1999, FernWithy wrote: > > Just put some big mother swastikas on them, and some swastika > >banners in the auditorium, and presto. An interesting directorial choice > >by Lucas. Was he really serious? > > Well, given that he dressed the *Empire* up as Nazis (with jackboots and those > stupid half-helmets), and called their foot soldiers "stormtroopers," and had > them led by people who apparently could not abide having any non-human, > non-male, or non-white creatures on their side (only Vader deals with > non-humans -- the bounty hunters -- and the rest of the Empire can't imagine > why he would do such a thing), my guess is that the end of SW was just a > standard military celebration scene, and could probably be found in many places > other than Riefenstahl. There is an explicit and none-too-subtle Nazi > connection, but it's not on the side of the Alliance. I really wish I could leave it at that, but apparently the reference in the final scene is not subtle, but strikingly obvious-- like, say, if Lucas had had the final confrontation between Luke and Vader on a huge sculpture of four faces. Sure, there's other big sculptures and there's fights, but the reference to North by Northwest is obviously implied. That's the degree of reference. I'm given to understand that Lucas *did* kind of borrow the scene from the nazi film; however, I'm wondering whether he meant it to carry the weight of the source of the filmographic quote, or whether he was just taking a powerful scene and hoping people wouldn't notice where he'd gotten it. ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 07 Aug 1999 02:51:11 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990806225111.21451.00009236@ng-fr1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.239.227!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >That's the >degree of reference. >I'm given to understand that Lucas *did* kind of borrow the scene from the >nazi film; however, I'm wondering whether he meant it to carry the weight >of the source of the filmographic quote, or whether he was just taking a >powerful scene and hoping people wouldn't notice where he'd gotten it. Well, only a fairly serious student of film history would probably pick it up (no one else really watches Riefenstahl), so I'd say we'd go with the obvious side first. What are the main themes of the trilogy? 1. Moral choices matter immensely. 2. Racial diversity is a strength. 3. Love is stronger than pretty much anything it comes up against. 4. Compassion is the downfall of evil. 5. Nothing is worthless, from the Millenium Falcon to Vader's soul. Since those are all a pretty direct refutation of Nazi ideology, I think one can safely say that these movies are squarely set against Nazism. But for the sake of argument, let's say he did take it from Riefenstahl. So? Being on the wrong side doesn't mean she was any less talented a director -- talent, unfortunately, is morally neutral. I've seen some of her work, and she did have a good eye. If she shot something that made for a good military celebration scene, what of it? The themes of the trilogy are obviously against Nazi philosophy, so an obscure filmic reference (I doubt your average seven-year-old in the front row had any knowledge of Riefenstahl) doesn't undo it. He didn't use the scene to promote Nazi ideology in any way. It was just a military celebration. That said, I have no idea whether or not this parallel filming is for real; I've never seen the scene it's compared to (though I've become enough of a connossieur of Star Wars-bashing to be aware of the comparison; I just don't find it a worthy point to bother with in an analysis of what the movie is saying). --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 07 Aug 1999 03:34:30 GMT References: <19990806225111.21451.00009236@ng-fr1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990806233430.26092.00009111@ng-fp1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Okay, I did a search on "Riefenstahl" and "Star Wars" to see if I could get the scoop. Apparently, it's a film called "Triumph of the Will." However, the only direct reference I found to how the two relate was in an article titled, essentially, "Things you can say to annoy Star Wars fans." Since the proper response to all of them is an annoyed eye-rolling... [Fern rolls her eyes and lets it go.] --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: "Edward W. Beattie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:59:02 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7oi0kd$96k$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <19990802162531.21498.00003434@ngol04.aol.com> <19990802170644.21451.00006147@ng-fr1.aol.com> <7o55h6$ntu$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-45.ocuhist.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news4.svr.pol.co.uk 934053325 9428 62.136.82.45 (7 Aug 1999 19:15:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 1999 19:15:25 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail >> I've always heard "chippie" in this regard >> with the added context of being... well, to >> be generous "easy." If not downright, er, >> commericial. > >Oh! Here in the UK it means a carpenter. I'm >so glad I've never had any woodwork needs >while in America... Or a shop that sells fish and chips. There was though a musical produced in the USA a few years ago based on the diary of a girl in California who was a chippie (professionally) in the 1920's or '30's. Can't remember who did the musical. It was called AFAIK "Chippy", so spelt. regards EWB ###### From: "Edward W. Beattie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:03:08 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 14 Message-ID: <7oi0ke$96k$2@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <19990802114021.23715.00002213@ngol06.aol.com> <37A8466B.8532E72B@mediaone.net> <37aa17e4.3800267105@news.corp.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-45.ocuhist.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news4.svr.pol.co.uk 934053326 9428 62.136.82.45 (7 Aug 1999 19:15:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 1999 19:15:26 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail >LOL, you're right! My son reads a little LOTR every night before he >goes to sleep. What does LOL mean? In England it means lots "Lots of Love", but I think here we are divided by a common acronym. regards EWB ###### From: "Panacea" Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <19990802114021.23715.00002213@ngol06.aol.com> <37A8466B.8532E72B@mediaone.net> <37aa17e4.3800267105@news.corp.hp.com> <7oi0ke$96k$2@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> Message-ID: <01bee124$1182a740$85031ad8@default> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Lines: 22 Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 22:29:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.26.3.133 X-Complaints-To: news@teleport.com X-Trace: news1.teleport.com 934064952 216.26.3.133 (Sat, 07 Aug 1999 15:29:12 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 15:29:12 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp.teleport.com!news1.teleport.com!not-for-mail Edward W. Beattie wrote in article <7oi0ke$96k$2@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>... > >LOL, you're right! My son reads a little LOTR every night before he > >goes to sleep. > > > > What does LOL mean? In England it means lots "Lots of Love", but I think > here we are divided by a common acronym. I'm not sure whether it's American convention or Usenet convention, but in context it would be Laughing Out Loud. I think. If the original poster (unattributed) knows better, perhaps he/she could enlighten us... Thena ###### From: "dee almquist" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 09:01:06 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <7ojv3q$v89$1@nntp5.atl.mindspring.net> References: <37A5AD67.AA1200A0@mediaone.net> <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <37A741F7.A85B11F9@mediaone.net> <7o7tdj$7ig$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.12.3e X-Server-Date: 8 Aug 1999 13:01:46 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail -- Dee Almquist "The beginning of contention is as one letting out the waters; so before the quarrel has burst forth, take your leave." Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message news:7o7tdj$7ig$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net... > Ilya Aksman wrote in message > news:37A741F7.A85B11F9@mediaone.net... > > Heh, I've been responding to this as I read and now it > seems we come out in much the same position. Yes, they > spent some time doing other things but it really seems to > have had no great effect on the outcome... EXCEPT that they > were better informed about what had happened and they gave > Boromir a decent funeral. i can't help but be reminded of the practice of burial at sea when i think of boromir's send-off. i gather the ceremony for burial at sea by the navy (in particular, the us and english navies) is fairly short and to the point. yet, back in the days of the war between the two navies, common practice was to quietly slip the bodies overboard when it came in the heat of battle. sort of like keeping the decks clear i guess. so it might not have been inappropriate to send boromir off with good wishes but with very little ceremony especially when it was important to 'waste not a mintue'. some of you may recognise the ideas i'm refering to out of the excellent 'aubrey-maturin books' by patrick o'brian. > > ###### From: "dee almquist" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 09:02:51 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 31 Message-ID: <7ojv73$vdj$1@nntp5.atl.mindspring.net> References: <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <19990802114021.23715.00002213@ngol06.aol.com> <37A8466B.8532E72B@mediaone.net> <37aa17e4.3800267105@news.corp.hp.com> <7oi0ke$96k$2@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> <01bee124$1182a740$85031ad8@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.12.3e X-Server-Date: 8 Aug 1999 13:03:31 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail most places i've seen it used are refering to 'lots of love'... -- Dee Almquist "The beginning of contention is as one letting out the waters; so before the quarrel has burst forth, take your leave." Panacea wrote in message news:01bee124$1182a740$85031ad8@default... > > > Edward W. Beattie wrote in article > <7oi0ke$96k$2@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>... > > >LOL, you're right! My son reads a little LOTR every night before he > > >goes to sleep. > > > > > > > > What does LOL mean? In England it means lots "Lots of Love", but I think > > here we are divided by a common acronym. > > I'm not sure whether it's American convention or Usenet > convention, but in context it would be Laughing Out Loud. > > I think. > > If the original poster (unattributed) knows better, perhaps he/she > could enlighten us... > > Thena > ###### From: RLV Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 18:02:18 +0200 Organization: RLV Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <37ADAA0A.6E3E@xxxx.xxx> References: <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <19990802114021.23715.00002213@ngol06.aol.com> <37A8466B.8532E72B@mediaone.net> <37aa17e4.3800267105@news.corp.hp.com> <7oi0ke$96k$2@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> <01bee124$1182a740$85031ad8@default> <7ojv73$vdj$1@nntp5.atl.mindspring.net> Reply-To: xxxx@xxxx.xxx NNTP-Posting-Host: tn174-202.tinn.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!not-for-mail dee almquist wrote: > > most places i've seen it used are refering to 'lots of love'... > > > > What does LOL mean? In England it means lots "Lots of Love", but I think > > > here we are divided by a common acronym. > > > > I'm not sure whether it's American convention or Usenet > > convention, but in context it would be Laughing Out Loud. > > > > I think. > > > > If the original poster (unattributed) knows better, perhaps he/she > > could enlighten us... Common usage in NGs and forums is "Laughing Out Loud". It keeps company with LMAO ("Laughing My Ass/Arse Off), ROTFLOL (Rolling On The Floor Laughing Out Loud) and others constructed similarly. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### From: diane_hancock@hp.com (Diane Hancock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:52:30 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Cupertino Site Lines: 17 Message-ID: <37b1fe56.8429180@news.corp.hp.com> References: <7o4ct9$6dh$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <19990802114021.23715.00002213@ngol06.aol.com> <37A8466B.8532E72B@mediaone.net> <37aa17e4.3800267105@news.corp.hp.com> <7oi0ke$96k$2@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ntdpc111.pa.itc.hp.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.cup.hp.com!not-for-mail On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:03:08 +0100, "Edward W. Beattie" wrote: >>LOL, you're right! My son reads a little LOTR every night before he >>goes to sleep. > > > >What does LOL mean? In England it means lots "Lots of Love", but I think >here we are divided by a common acronym. > > Sorry for assuming Universal Acronym Awareness -- it's Laughing Out Loud. I'm sure Ilya is a nice person and all, but it's a little premature in our relationship for me to be declaring love! Diane H. ###### From: Mike Kew Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:55:16 +0100 Organization: Don't be so daft Message-ID: References: <19990806225111.21451.00009236@ng-fr1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kew1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: kew1.demon.co.uk:212.228.11.69 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 934440865 nnrp-14:15345 NO-IDENT kew1.demon.co.uk:212.228.11.69 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S Lines: 54 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news1.carrier1.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!kew1.demon.co.uk!Brandybuck On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, FernWithy wrote >Well, only a fairly serious student of film history would probably pick it up >(no one else really watches Riefenstahl), so I'd say we'd go with the obvious >side first. What are the main themes of the trilogy? 1. Moral choices matter >immensely. Yup. >2. Racial diversity is a strength. Umm. I don't see where you get this from. The most racially diverse group we see is the gang belonging to Jabba the Hutt, which isn't particularly strong. Elsewhere (e.g. on Tattooine), racial mixes are more associated with degeneracy than strength. In fact, there's a strong message that *solidarity* is strength. "We are now part of the tribe". That's precisely the basis of all fascist ideology. Even when different races do co-operate, they remain distinct. Can you imagine a human breeding with an ewok, or a wookie...? (Kinky.) >3. Love is stronger than pretty >much anything it comes up against. Yes, but this is 'love' in the personal, romantic sense, not in the Christian, compassionate sense. Nazis would have agreed with that. >4. Compassion is the downfall of evil. I can't fault that one. >5. >Nothing is worthless, from the Millenium Falcon to Vader's soul. ... except for the thousands of anonymous people who die in each film. No-one we've been introduced to is worthless - but anonymous types die by the million, and nobody even pretends to care. How many stormtroopers get casually butchered? And then there's the whole crew of the Death Star. And we're supposed to be glad about that, and the Force even guides Luke to kill them. >But for the sake of argument, let's say he did take it from Riefenstahl. So? >Being on the wrong side doesn't mean she was any less talented a director -- She was a brilliant film-maker - and propagandist - no doubt of it. I don't see the difficulty here. Finally, I'd just like to mention that if people are talking about the scene I think they're talking about, it could just as easily be inspired by the Lincoln Memorial... -- Mike Kew ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Lines: 61 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 12 Aug 1999 21:33:57 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990812173357.01083.00000185@ng-fj1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!europa.netcrusader.net!205.231.82.12!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail > >>2. Racial diversity is a strength. > >Umm. I don't see where you get this from. The most racially diverse >group we see is the gang belonging to Jabba the Hutt, which isn't >particularly strong. Elsewhere (e.g. on Tattooine), racial mixes are >more associated with degeneracy than strength. Simple. The Empire is populated entirely by humans. White men, specifically. A point is made of Han saying that its technology isn't even designed to be handled by non-humans. Vader is the only Imperial to deal with non-humans at all, and we know he's not quite got total buy-in to the Imperial system. In turn, the Empire is repeatedly defeated by ships piloted by women, squids, and Wookies. It is finally taken down by a race of teddy bears. The Alliance has serious interracial cooperation. It's not a galaxy where interbreeding among alien species is possible, so clearly you're not going to see a match between a human a Wookie in that sense, but friendships are common, and species doesn't seem to be a barrier to advancement. > >Even when different races do co-operate, they remain distinct. Can you >imagine a human breeding with an ewok, or a wookie...? (Kinky.) Well, my best friend *did* have a big crush on Chewbacca... ;) >Yes, but this is 'love' in the personal, romantic sense, not in the >Christian, compassionate sense. Nazis would have agreed with that. It's the sense of the Living Force, as it's called in the new movie. I don't think you can really separate personal love -- between a father and a son, for instance -- from universal love. As Merry says (or is it Pippin? I can't remember), we love first what we were born to. You can't love in a grandiose sense without loving the particular. > >... except for the thousands of anonymous people who die in each film. >No-one we've been introduced to is worthless - but anonymous types die >by the million, and nobody even pretends to care. Not true. At several points, people are shown mourning the senseless deaths. There's scene between two Ewoks in Jedi, where one is killed and the other keens over him. Admiral Ackbar mourns the death of an anonymous pilot who crashed his fighter into a Star Destroyer. Many anxious faces and saddened eyes are shown during the battle of the Death Star, as the air force is taken out. Obi-Wan was doubled over with pain when Alderaan blew up. It's a war, people die a lot. That doesn't make them worthless. We happen to be following people who survived to start the new world. > >Finally, I'd just like to mention that if people are talking about the >scene I think they're talking about, it could just as easily be inspired >by the Lincoln Memorial... > > That would be my guess. --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: David Cornette Subject: Re: least favorite passages? Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7o55h6$ntu$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> <19990802225138.00347.00001799@ng-fo1.aol.com> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i586)) Lines: 13 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:55:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.19.84 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net 934934156 24.128.19.84 (Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:55:56 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:55:56 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.abs.net!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.44.7!wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail FernWithy wrote: > I wouldn't worry. I think most people here would kind of go "Huh?" The > context I know it from is my grandmother and my great-grandmother -- it's > archaic Yankee slang, though Stephen King does use it a couple of times. Maine > drops things a little slower than the rest of the country, methinks. I grew up in Maine, and I have never heard it. -- David Cornette dcornett@isilzha.ne.mediaone.net