From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: When Frodo Sees W-K Leaving Lines: 61 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 Jul 1999 17:55:23 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990731135523.22915.00002077@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.239.227!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I was rereading Stairs of Cirith Ungol the passage describing Frodo's watching the W-K and his army leave Minas Morgul struck me. I'll quote it here: "Maybe it was the Ring that called to the Wraith-lord, and for a moment he was troubled, sensing some other power within his valley. This way and that turned the dark head helmed and crowned with fear, sweeping the shadows with its unseen eyes. Frodo waited, like a bird at the approach of a snake, unable to move. And as he waited, he felt, more urgent than ever before, the command that he should put on the Ring. But great as the pressure was, he felt no inclination now to yield to it. He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king -- not yet. There was no longer nay answer to that command in his own will, dismayed by terror though it was, and he felt only the beating upon him of a great power from outside. It took his hand, and as Frodo watched with his mind, not willing it but in suspense (as if he looked on some old story far away), it moved the hand inch by inch towards the chain on his neck. Then his own will stirred; slowly it forced the hand back and set it to find another thing, a thing lying hidden near his breast. Cold and hard it seemed as his grip closed on it: the phial of Galadriel, so long treasured, and almost forgotten till that hour. As he touched it, for a while all thought of the Ring was banished from his mind. He signed and bent his head." There is *a lot* going on in that passage and I'd like to discuss it. First, Frodo feel the command of the Ring (?) to put it on - presumably as he felt the commadn to put it on back in the Shire and on Weathertop. But no he felt no inclination to yield to it .Why? Because he knew the Ring would betray him (he learned his lesson on Weathertop) *and knew he had not the power, even if he put on the Ring, to face the W-K, NOT YET.* Not yet?!? I said "wait a minute" as I read that. Does that mean that as early as the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, Frodo was contemplating, consciouly or unconsciously, that there would be a time that he could claim and use the Ring to overcome his enemies such as the W-K??? I had always thought that Frodo claiming the RIng in the Sammath Naur was a result of teh RIng finnally breaking his will and that up until that point, Frodo was true. This passsage implies that Frodo began to break much earlier than I thought. He hadn't even entered Mordor and he was contemplating being able to use the Ring to take on Sauron's deadliest servant. No here is where it gets confusing. It is just stated that Frodo was immune to the call of the Ring to put it on. Now the passage seems to shift gears. Now there was no answer to that command i his own will. It took his hand and moved it towards the chain on his neck. What "it" took his hand?? Just a minute ago Frodo was able to avoid answering the Rings command, no it is moving his had towards the Ring. What changed? Then his own will stirred - which just a second ago was impotent - and moved his hand instead towards the phial and he was saved. What is going on here. It appears a battle raged back and forth. First the Ring commanded Frodo to put it on. Frodo initially resisted because he knew he would be betrayed. Then Frodo began to think of a future in which eh could use the ring against his enemies and at that point the Ring broke his will and began to move his hand towrds the chain around his neck. In the end, Frodo's own will recovered and instead moved his hand towards the phial. Am I reading this correctly?? It confuses me because in one passage he "has no inclination to yield to it" and two sentences later his hand is moving towards the Ring. Russ ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: When Frodo Sees W-K Leaving Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 00:04:09 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 39 Message-ID: <7o0hbh$bsv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <19990731135523.22915.00002077@ngol05.aol.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.23.202 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 933480625 12191 12.72.23.202 (1 Aug 1999 04:10:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Aug 1999 04:10:25 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnslave1!wnmaster2!not-for-mail McREsq wrote in message news:19990731135523.22915.00002077@ngol05.aol.com... > Not yet?!? I said "wait a minute" as I read that. Does > that mean that as early as the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, > Frodo was contemplating, consciouly or unconsciously, > that there would be a time that he could claim and use > the Ring to overcome his enemies such as the W-K??? I > had always thought that Frodo claiming the RIng in the > Sammath Naur was a result of teh RIng finnally breaking > his will and that up until that point, Frodo was true. > This passsage implies that Frodo began to break much > earlier than I thought. Look at Frodo's history with the Ring. All the way back to the fireplace scene with Gandalf it was obvious that it had him in its grip. He 'began to break' from the day he received it. > He hadn't even entered Mordor and he was contemplating > being able to use the Ring to take on Sauron's deadliest > servant. It is noteworthy that JRRT indicated that at Orodruin Frodo COULD have held the Nazgul at bay. Not truly dominate them, but at least keep them from assaulting him until Sauron could come and seize the Ring. > No here is where it gets confusing. It is just stated > that Frodo was immune to the call of the Ring to put it > on. Now the passage seems to shift gears. I think what was actually being said was that Frodo no longer had any REAL reason to put on the Ring... he did not believe it would protect him. Thus there was no desire >within< himself to put it on, but from without there was pressure to do so. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: When Frodo Sees W-K Leaving Lines: 39 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Aug 1999 15:55:53 GMT References: <7o0hbh$bsv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990801115553.21498.00003113@ngol04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.239.227!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7o0hbh$bsv$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >Look at Frodo's history with the Ring. All the way back >to the fireplace scene with Gandalf it was obvious that it >had him in its grip. He 'began to break' from the day he >received it. I don't know about that. Certainly the Ring was beating down adn wearing on Frodo, but I though he retained mastery of himself for much longer. >> He hadn't even entered Mordor and he was contemplating >> being able to use the Ring to take on Sauron's deadliest >> servant. > >It is noteworthy that JRRT indicated that at Orodruin Frodo >COULD have held the Nazgul at bay. Not truly dominate >them, but at least keep them from assaulting him until >Sauron could come and seize the Ring. The Ring's power appeard to grow as it got closer to Sammath Naur. Frodo recognized perhaps that he didn't have that power at Minas Morgul >> No here is where it gets confusing. It is just stated >> that Frodo was immune to the call of the Ring to put it >> on. Now the passage seems to shift gears. > >I think what was actually being said was that Frodo no >longer had any REAL reason to put on the Ring... he did not >believe it would protect him. Thus there was no desire >>within< himself to put it on, but from without there was >pressure to do so. It states that he felt the command to put on the Ring more urgent than before. The command comes from the Ring, not an inner feeling IMO. Russ ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: When Frodo Sees W-K Leaving Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 04:17:40 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 181 Message-ID: References: <19990731135523.22915.00002077@ngol05.aol.com> Reply-To: John Whelan NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: <19990731135523.22915.00002077@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On 31 Jul 1999, McREsq wrote: > I was rereading Stairs of Cirith Ungol the passage describing Frodo's > watching the W-K and his army leave Minas Morgul struck me. I'll quote > it here: > "Maybe it was the Ring that called to the Wraith-lord, and for a moment > he was troubled, sensing some other power within his valley. This way > and that turned the dark head helmed and crowned with fear, sweeping the > shadows with its unseen eyes. Frodo waited, like a bird at the approach > of a snake, unable to move. And as he waited, he felt, more urgent than > ever before, the command that he should put on the Ring. But great as > the pressure was, he felt no inclination now to yield to it. He knew > that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put > it on, the power to face the Morgul-king -- not yet. There was no > longer nay answer to that command in his own will, dismayed by terror > though it was, and he felt only the beating upon him of a great power > from outside. It took his hand, and as Frodo watched with his mind, not > willing it but in suspense (as if he looked on some old story far away), > it moved the hand inch by inch towards the chain on his neck. Then his > own will stirred; slowly it forced the hand back and set it to find > another thing, a thing lying hidden near his breast. Cold and hard it > seemed as his grip closed on it: the phial of Galadriel, so long > treasured, and almost forgotten till that hour. As he touched it, for a > while all thought of the Ring was banished from his mind. He signed and > bent his head." > There is *a lot* going on in that passage and I'd like to discuss it. > First, Frodo feel the command of the Ring (?) to put it on - presumably > as he felt the commadn to put it on back in the Shire and on Weathertop. > But no he felt no inclination to yield to it .Why? Because he knew the > Ring would betray him (he learned his lesson on Weathertop) *and knew he > had not the power, even if he put on the Ring, to face the W-K, NOT > YET.* > Not yet?!? I said "wait a minute" as I read that. Does that mean that as > early as the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, Frodo was contemplating, consciouly or > unconsciously, that there would be a time that he could claim and use the Ring > to overcome his enemies such as the W-K??? The thought was beginning to occur to him, yes. The ring is trying to corrupt him with promises of power. > I had always thought that Frodo > claiming the RIng in the Sammath Naur was a result of teh RIng finnally > breaking his will and that up until that point, Frodo was true. Frodo is still trying to complete his mission at this point. But his mind is not entirely his own. There are a number of struggles going on within him. Frodo is saving what limited will he has left to propel himself step by step onwards on his journey towards his goal so that he may get one step closer to the completion of his mission. He probably is not thinking directly about what he will do when he gets to Mount Doom. I doubt he is spending time thinking about destroying the Ring, because that would make it harder for him to proceed, just as he found it impossible to throw it into the fire over a year previously. NOT thinking about destroying the ring is probably the only thing that allows him to go onwards. Meanwhile, the Ring is beginning to suggest other plans to him, and Frodo has more immediate concerns than trying to keep those thoughts out of his head. > This passsage > implies that Frodo began to break much earlier than I thought. He began to break the moment the Ring came into his possession. As did Bilbo. > He hadn't even > entered Mordor and he was contemplating being able to use the Ring to take on > Sauron's deadliest servant. The thought was in his mind. The Ring was putting it there. I'm not sure that "contemplating" is the right word, but the ring is definitely trying to corrupt him with promises of power and the ability to challenge his enemies. > No here is where it gets confusing. It is just stated that Frodo was > immune to the call of the Ring to put it on. Actually, it said that he had no desire to put on the Ring or to obey the command he hears. This is never contradicted. > Now the passage seems to shift gears. Now there was no answer to that > command in his own will. It took his hand and moved it towards the > chain on his neck. What "it" took his hand?? Just a minute ago Frodo > was able to avoid answering the Rings command, no it is moving his had > towards the Ring. What changed? Nothing changed. Frodo's hand was moving independently of his will. Frodo never chose to move his hand, so it does not matter that he felt no desire to put on the Ring. This action was not the result of his desire acting on his will. His will was not involved at all. It was the will of the Ring that moved his hand, in an effort to betray him. But Frodo's own will was stronger the instant he begant to pay attention and realized what was happening. > Then his own will stirred - which just > a second ago was impotent His will was not impotent, just inactive. He did not need to activate his will, because he did not perceive a need to do anything. It was only when he perceived his arm and hand moving independently of his will that he recognized that something needed to be done. He needed to take control of his arm and do something else with it. Note that the independent movement of his arm has little or nothing to do with his corruption. It is merely the Ring attempting to betray him just like it did when he danced on the table at Bree. Just like it betrayed Isildur...just like it betrayed Gollum. > - and moved his hand instead towards the phial > and he was saved. He was saved in more ways than one. Had he not had the phial, he could have chosen to grab something else instead, and thus wrested control of arm from the Ring itself. Corrupt or no, the Ring is not strong or not to directly control his movements unless he is not paying attention. The same would have been true of Gollum, had he been in Frodo's shoes. But by grabbing the phial, he counteracts the Ring's corrupting influence as well, by banishing all thought of the Ring from his mind. That includes the creepy little "not yet" thought he has about using the Ring to defeat the Witch King. > What is going on here. It appears a battle raged back and forth. First > the Ring commanded Frodo to put it on. Frodo initially resisted because > he knew he would be betrayed. Then Frodo began to think of a future in > which eh could use the ring against his enemies and at that point the > Ring broke his will and began to move his hand towrds the chain around > his neck. In the end, Frodo's own will recovered and instead moved his > hand towards the phial. Am I reading this correctly?? Not quite. I would put it this way. Frodo is being subjected to a three-pronged attack by the Ring: First, it tries to take direct control of his will, by MAKING him choose to put on the Ring in response to a direct command. This fails, because, corrupt or no, Frodo knows that the Ring and its power will only be taken from him if he obeys. Perhaps Frodo's will is stronger and more disciplined than when he met the Nazgul at Weathertop, when he obeys the Ring's command. His desire for the Ring has grown, as well as his understanding of the fact that obeying such commands will mean losing the Ring. He feels no desire to obey, because any impulse to obey the command is not even remotely equal to his desire for the Ring. Secondly, it is trying to corrupt him with the desire for the Ring and it's power. This has been ongoing, but occurs here as well. Indeed, as I have stated above, it is in part his desire for the Ring and its power that help counteract the need to obey its command. Frodo is now smart enough to know that the Ring is only trying to leave him when it issues such commands. Here, too, we get the sneaky little "not yet" that gets slipped into his thoughts by the Ring. Frodo cannot let go of the idea that perhaps he may be able to Master the Ring eventually, and use it to challenge the Witch King. When he gets to Mount Doom, perhaps....? Clearly Frodo's mastery of the Ring is growing. He is now able to command the ring, rather than it commanding him. Thirdly, the Ring is trying to take direct control of his body while he is distracted, just as it did when he fell off the table at Bree. It does this while he is watching the Witch-King intently, while he is involved in all the above inner conflicts, while he is congratulating himself on his growing mastery of the ring and ability to resist it's commands. This trick bypasses his will and his desires entirely, and I don't think it has anything to do with how corrupted he is (though I could be wrong). It can work only if Frodo does not notice what is happening. When he does notice, he is able to stop it from happening, and do something else with his arm. Finally, there is the influence of the Phial. When he grabs the Phial, ALL thoughts of the Ring are banished from his mind. This includes the corrupting promises of Power, as well as the command. > It confuses me because in one passage he "has no inclination to yield to > it" and two sentences later his hand is moving towards the Ring. There is no contradiction. The Ring's attempt to commandeer Frodo's arm, and its attempt to commandeer Frodo himself were two different maneuvers. -- Lupus Australis ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: When Frodo Sees W-K Leaving Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 03 Aug 1999 14:11:19 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990803101119.23400.00002702@ngol07.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!cyclone.i1.net!newspump.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , John Whelan writes: >Thirdly, the Ring is trying to take direct control of his body while he is >distracted, just as it did when he fell off the table at Bree. It does >this while he is watching the Witch-King intently, while he is involved in >all the above inner conflicts, while he is congratulating himself on his >growing mastery of the ring and ability to resist it's commands. This >trick bypasses his will and his desires entirely, and I don't think it has >anything to do with how corrupted he is (though I could be wrong). It can >work only if Frodo does not notice what is happening. When he does >notice, he is able to stop it from happening, and do something else with >his arm. > >Finally, there is the influence of the Phial. When he grabs the Phial, >ALL thoughts of the Ring are banished from his mind. This includes the >corrupting promises of Power, as well as the command. > >> It confuses me because in one passage he "has no inclination to yield to >> it" and two sentences later his hand is moving towards the Ring. > >There is no contradiction. The Ring's attempt to commandeer Frodo's arm, >and its attempt to commandeer Frodo himself were two different maneuvers. Hmmmm. That's very interesting. So, since the Ring couldn't take over Frodo's will at that point, it essentially bypassed his will and took direct control of his motor functions. You've provided the best explanation I've seen so far. Its interesting because I never saw the Ring as having that sort of power. Perhaps its only something it can do on a small scale. Otherwise the Ring could have simply commandeerd Gollum's body and walked him into Barad-dur. Russ ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: When Frodo Sees W-K Leaving Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:35:55 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <19990803101119.23400.00002702@ngol07.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: <19990803101119.23400.00002702@ngol07.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On 3 Aug 1999, McREsq wrote: > In article , John Whelan > writes: > > >Thirdly, the Ring is trying to take direct control of his body while he is > >distracted, just as it did when he fell off the table at Bree. It does > >this while he is watching the Witch-King intently, while he is involved in > >all the above inner conflicts, while he is congratulating himself on his > >growing mastery of the ring and ability to resist it's commands. This > >trick bypasses his will and his desires entirely, and I don't think it has > >anything to do with how corrupted he is (though I could be wrong). It can > >work only if Frodo does not notice what is happening. When he does > >notice, he is able to stop it from happening, and do something else with > >his arm. > > > >Finally, there is the influence of the Phial. When he grabs the Phial, > >ALL thoughts of the Ring are banished from his mind. This includes the > >corrupting promises of Power, as well as the command. > > > >> It confuses me because in one passage he "has no inclination to yield to > >> it" and two sentences later his hand is moving towards the Ring. > > > >There is no contradiction. The Ring's attempt to commandeer Frodo's arm, > >and its attempt to commandeer Frodo himself were two different maneuvers. > > Hmmmm. That's very interesting. So, since the Ring couldn't take over Frodo's > will at that point, it essentially bypassed his will and took direct control of > his motor functions. You've provided the best explanation I've seen so far. > > Its interesting because I never saw the Ring as having that sort of power. > Perhaps its only something it can do on a small scale. Otherwise the Ring > could have simply commandeerd Gollum's body and walked him into Barad-dur. Yes. I see it as a very limited ability. It is not one that counteracts or overcomes one's own will. The Ring can only "use" one of your appendages when you yourself are not using it or paying attention to it at the time. It is a sneaky power, that only works if you do not notice what is happening. Gollum would certainly have noticed if his legs started taking him somewhere he was terrified to go, and he would have corrected the situation fast. If the ploy had worked, then Frodo would have discovered the Ring on his finger without ever remembering having put it on. The ploy failed the moment Frodo noticed what was happening. Something similar happened to Bilbo after he escaped from Gollum and tried to sneak past the Orcs. He found the Ring back in his pocket wihout ever remembering having taken it off. Had he noticed himself taking off the Ring, he certainly would have stopped himself. -- Lupus Australis