Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Subject: Druedain and The Watchers X-Nntp-Posting-Host: harper.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 05:29:41 GMT Lines: 114 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.174.5.49!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Not long ago, I was rereading _Unfinished Tales_ and was amazed to find the following passage in the chapter on the Druedain (right before the story "The Faithful Stone"), after a discussion of that people's uncanny ability to remain absolutely motionless for days at a time: But they could also use this stillness when on guard; and then they would sit or stand, hidden in shadow, and though their eyes might seem closed or staring with a blank gaze nothing passed or came near that was not marked and remembered. So intense was their unseen vigilance that it could be felt as a hostile menace by intruders, who retreated in fear before any warning was given; but if any evil thing passed on, then they would utter as a signal a shrill whistle, painful to endure close at hand and heard far off. The service of the Druedain as guards was much esteemed by the Folk of Haleth in times of peril; and if such guards were not to be had they would have figures carved in their likeness to set near their houses, believing that (being made by the Druedain themselves for the purpose) they would hold some of the menace of the living men. This made me realize two things. First, that my habit of writing sentences that are excessively long and involved must have its root in Tolkien. :) More importantly, however, this passage invoked another reference in my mind: But just as he was about to pass under its great arch he felt a shock: as if he had run into some web like Shelob's, only invisible. He could see no obstacle, but something too strong for his will to overcome barred the way. He looked about, and then within the shadow of the gate he saw the Two Watchers. [Snip description, which seems very un-Dru^glike.] They seemed to be carved out of huge blocks of stone, immovable, and yet they were aware: some dreadful spirit of evil vigilance abode in them. They knew an enemy. Visible or invisible none could pass unheeded. They would forbid his entry, or his escape. [Snip Sam's use of the phial of Galadriel.] He sprang past them; but even as he did so, thrusting the phial back into his bosom, he was aware, as plainly as if a bar of steel had snapped to behind him, that their vigilance was renewed. And from those evil heads there came a high shrill cry that echoed in the towering walls before him. A long quote, but the two descriptions seem remarkably similar to me. (Why I didn't notice this until my third or fourth time through that chapter of UT I don't know.) Now, it seems clear that no Druadan would have made a "watchstone" in such an evil form, or one that hated good and gave warning when it passed. However, the connection is so strong to me that I propose that one of the following almost has to be true: 0) The Two Watchers were Maiar. Actually, I think this is ridiculous, but it seems to be the standard catch-all for things people don't understand about Middle-earth, so I thought I'd include it for kicks. 1) The Two Watchers were originally Dru^g-work, which were later perverted by Sauron or one of his servants to be evil. (It is even possible, though unlikely, that the Dunedain who built the tower employed some Druedain to build sleepless doorwards for the fortress.) Presumably, the statues of the Druedain could be recarved to have the observed evil appearance, but the corruption of the "Druedain spirits" that animated them strikes me as far more difficult. 2) The Two Watchers were created by evil things using a very Dru^g-like process, either learned or stolen or inherited from that people. This second option (ignoring the 0th one, for good reason) raises some interesting questions. Tolkien himself commented that the Druedain ability to transfer "part of their `powers' to their artefacts remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundations of Barad-dur and to the Ruling Ring", so we can't assume that _only_ they could ever create such watch-stones. However, the great similarity in form and function suggests a connection. We know that the Druedain were among the least prone of the Atani to evil (and with the most intense hatred of Orcs), so the thought that they taught their arts to the Enemy seems absurd. On the other hand, I find it unlikely in the extreme that a spy peering from behind a bush could observe enough of the `magic' involved in the guardian stones' creation to make the techniques available to the forces of darkness. This leaves only one possibility to my mind: that some Druedain were early on captured by Morgoth and bred into the race of Orcs, perhaps giving rise to an elite class which retained at least some of the Druedain lore and skills. A footnote in UT says the following: [In response to claims that the Orcs were bred from Druedain, the Elves answered:] "Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped his Shadow; for their laughter and the laughter of Orcs are as different as is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband." But some thought, nonetheless, that there had been a remote kinship, which accounted for their special enmity. Orcs and Dru^gs each regarded the other as renegades. I have come to the conclusion that this interpretation of (2) is the best explanation of the Two Watchers, and I find its implications for the history of the Orcish race quite interesting. (Who knows how mingled the Orcs' blood was, and if the Druedain ancestry was universal or rare...) At any rate, now that I've created one of my longest and most quote-heavy original posts ever, I thought I'd open this up for comments. Is there evidence against (2) that I'm not considering? Evidence in favor of (1)? (Or, for that matter, in favor of (0), Eru help us.) Has anyone else made this connection? Am I insane? (Then again, don't answer that last one.) Steuard Jensen ###### From: mysterious@seattleweekly.fakeaddress.com (Mysterious Lurking SW Editor) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Druedain and The Watchers Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:29:55 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 9 Message-ID: <379ebf2e.15731714@nntp.ix.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: stl-wa51-42.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 28 3:29:59 AM CDT 1999 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol.ie!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!ix.netcom.com!news [Steuard's most excellent post snipped, though not for lack of merit] Wow. I never caught that before. Thanks for posting that -- the Druedain are one of those avenues that I wish Tolkien had spent more time on. Cool synthesis. AG ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Druedain and The Watchers Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <379ec6a3.178910422@news.pc-intouch.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-55.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 71 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:13:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@swbell.net X-Trace: typhoon01.swbell.net 933152988 207.212.198.18 (Wed, 28 Jul 1999 02:09:48 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 02:09:48 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon01.swbell.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 05:29:41 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >A long quote, but the two descriptions seem remarkably similar to me. >(Why I didn't notice this until my third or fourth time through that >chapter of UT I don't know.) Now, it seems clear that no Druadan >would have made a "watchstone" in such an evil form, or one that hated >good and gave warning when it passed. However, the connection is so >strong to me that I propose that one of the following almost has to be >true: > >0) The Two Watchers were Maiar. Actually, I think this is ridiculous, > but it seems to be the standard catch-all for things people don't > understand about Middle-earth, so I thought I'd include it for > kicks. You're right, it is ridiculous. Let's just include it for logical completeness. >1) The Two Watchers were originally Dru^g-work, which were later > perverted by Sauron or one of his servants to be evil. (It is even > possible, though unlikely, that the Dunedain who built the tower > employed some Druedain to build sleepless doorwards for the > fortress.) Presumably, the statues of the Druedain could be > recarved to have the observed evil appearance, but the corruption > of the "Druedain spirits" that animated them strikes me as far more > difficult. This seems like the most plausible. Sauron corrupted the Nine Rings. Why couldn't he corrupt the statues that the Druedain built to guard the tower? (Considering how weird the Druedain generally are, whatever they do to make these statues work is probably totally different from the Elven-magic that Sauron is used to messing with, but he'd eventually figure it out. He could have captured some Druedain and forced them to explain it to him. He's good at reverse-engineering.) >2) The Two Watchers were created by evil things using a very > Dru^g-like process, either learned or stolen or inherited from that > people. > >This second option (ignoring the 0th one, for good reason) raises some >interesting questions. Tolkien himself commented that the Druedain >ability to transfer "part of their `powers' to their artefacts remind >one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundations >of Barad-dur and to the Ruling Ring", so we can't assume that _only_ >they could ever create such watch-stones. However, the great >similarity in form and function suggests a connection. Again, I think it's most likely that the technique wasn't learned or stolen from the Druedain but forced out of them under torture. Sauron could have simply forced the Druedain to build the statues for him. >At any rate, now that I've created one of my longest and most >quote-heavy original posts ever, I thought I'd open this up for >comments. Is there evidence against (2) that I'm not considering? >Evidence in favor of (1)? (Or, for that matter, in favor of (0), Eru >help us.) Has anyone else made this connection? Am I insane? (Then >again, don't answer that last one.) The evidence in favor of (1) is that it's Sauron's MO. He *always* gets his coolest stuff by stealing from other people and twisting it around until it does what he wants. Kind of like Bill Gates. In addition, it's quite possible that the Druedain built the statues while the tower was controlled by the Dunedain. They *did* occasionally do guard duty for the Dunedain, so why not security system installation? Compared to that, (2) seems pretty unlikely. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Subject: Re: Druedain and The Watchers X-Nntp-Posting-Host: harper.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) References: <379ec6a3.178910422@news.pc-intouch.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:51:03 GMT Lines: 41 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!howland.erols.net!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews2!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells): > >1) The Two Watchers were originally Dru^g-work, which were later > > perverted by Sauron or one of his servants to be evil. > > This seems like the most plausible. Sauron corrupted the Nine Rings. > Why couldn't he corrupt the statues that the Druedain built to guard > the tower? The only concern that I have with this possibility is that Sauron did in fact help out with the construction of the Rings, and they were based at least in part on his knowledge and advice. He could have arranged for there to be "back doors" that he could use later, for example. The arts of the Druedain were, to the best of my knowledge, entirely their own, so Sauron would have to do _complete_ reverse engineering to work out how to bend them to his purposes. To be honest, I can't recall any case apart from the Rings where he does something like this (I can't think of any evidence that he actually _changed_ his Palantir, rather than just using it, for example). > He could have captured some Druedain and forced them to explain it > to him. I'm a _little_ skeptical about this, just because the Druedain seem very "resistant" to me. I can't shake the feeling that if Sauron tried to torture them, they'd just go completely still and ignore the world for a while, thinking their own thoughts. Either that, or arrange somehow to die quickly. But then, maybe I'm just in a "Druedain are cool" phase right now. :) > Sauron could have simply forced the Druedain to build the statues > for him. This raises another interesting question: did Druedain statues retain their "power" once their maker died? The Pukel-men in Rohan didn't seem very active, and in the story "The Faithful Stone" in UT, we see a direct connection between the stone and its maker. This question, of course, makes the Two Watchers even more puzzling (was the maker still alive after all these years? Or did new people come and re-animate them every time the old "animator" died?) Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Druedain and The Watchers Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:08:59 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 30 Message-ID: <7npuma$gev$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.25.65 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 933264906 16863 12.72.25.65 (29 Jul 1999 16:15:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 1999 16:15:06 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Steuard Jensen wrote in message news:FFKF9H.n4B@midway.uchicago.edu... an interesting analysis of similarities between Druedain and Watchers. First off let me say that it was a very good catch of some esoteric similarities and a well written summation. That said however, my first reaction is that JRRT probably just reused the same concept, possibly without being consciously aware of the connection. Putting aside that 'out of story' explanation one 'in story' problem is that the Druedain statues are not said to have the 'aura of dread' and to make the high pitched whistle... that is the Druedain themselves. The statues are described as possibly having some menace or effect, and there are other stories about Druedain magic and their statues, but in general these statues don't seem to have the same sort of effects as the Watchers. My interpretation of the Watchers would be that they were either inhabited by some sort of 'dark spirit' such as get all the good 'unexplained evil critter' jobs in ME or they were imbued with the will of their creator (Sauron or the Nazgul most likely)... I lean towards the latter. That said, it is possible the knowledge of how to do so was learned from the Druedain... or even that the Druedain took the idea from Sauron originally.