From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Dwarrows? Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:50:30 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Jul 26 13:55:06 1999 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-002mnminnp039.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 26 Jul 1999 20:53:30 GMT Message-ID: <379cc9e9.15049875@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Reposting from "Peoples of the East," where it has languished unanswered.... On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 01:01:42 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: [Quoting TAT] >. The real `historical' plural of _dwarf_ >(like _teeth_ of _tooth_) is _dwarrows_, anyway: rather a nice word, >but a bit to archaic. Still I rather wish I had used the word >_dwarrow_." Could one of you linguistically-inclined folks please explain why "dwarrows" is correct? I can't see how it fits, unless "dwarrow" was an archaic ancestor of "dwarf." Even then...how did "dwarrow" evolve into "dwarf"? "Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you're alive, it isn't." -- Richard Bach The Secular Paganist http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan (new URL) CyberKaryn: The Writings http://clik.to/cyberkaryn ###### From: ephebe22@aol.com (ryan k) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dwarrows? Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 26 Jul 1999 21:38:16 GMT References: <379cc9e9.15049875@news.earthlink.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990726173816.24134.00002524@ng-fw1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Prembone: >Could one of you linguistically-inclined >folks please explain why "dwarrows" is >correct? I can't see how it fits, unless >"dwarrow" was an archaic ancestor of >"dwarf." Even then...how did "dwarrow" >evolve into "dwarf"? Shakespeare on dwarf-tossing: "There's a special providence in the fall of a dwarrow." Sorry, I couldn't resist. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Subject: Re: Dwarrows? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: harper.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) References: <379cc9e9.15049875@news.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:57:13 GMT Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol.ie!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone): > Reposting from "Peoples of the East," where it has languished > unanswered.... > > Could one of you linguistically-inclined folks please explain why > "dwarrows" is correct? It has languished unanswered by me because I sadly don't know the answer. I have always assumed that Tolkien had simply traced the evolution of similar words that remained in common usage, and extrapolated to "dwarf". However, I don't know of the examples that he used to draw that conclusion, or if he was instead going from more general principles. Steuard Jensen ###### Message-ID: <379DC354.23108E94@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dwarrows? References: <379cc9e9.15049875@news.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 26 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:33:56 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 933086061 24.128.99.214 (Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:34:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:34:21 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Prembone wrote: > Could one of you linguistically-inclined folks please explain why > "dwarrows" is correct? I can't see how it fits, unless "dwarrow" was > an archaic ancestor of "dwarf." Even then...how did "dwarrow" evolve > into "dwarf"? Tolkien is quite correct (of course!) in his plural for Dwarfs = Dwarrows. Singular Anglo Saxon 'Dweorg' alters in later usage to 'dwarf' -- plural 'dweorgas' however, becomes 'dwerwhes', 'dwerwes' and 'dwarrows' variantly. So Tolkien indeed refers to the true archaic plural form from the word's Anglo Saxon etymology. The O.E.D. also includes 'dwerowe' 'duorow' among many other variant spellings. 'Dwergoz' is an Old Teutonic Aryan form. In Greek (though here spelled in phonetic English of course) 'dhwérghos' Cheers, Cian ###### Message-ID: <379DCC54.5C2A2BF4@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dwarrows? References: <19990727100953.10904.00001351@ngol08.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:12:20 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 933088365 24.128.99.214 (Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:12:45 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:12:45 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail McREsq wrote: > In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu > (Steuard Jensen) writes: > > >It has languished unanswered by me because I sadly don't know the > >answer. I have always assumed that Tolkien had simply traced the > >evolution of similar words that remained in common usage, and > >extrapolated to "dwarf". However, I don't know of the examples that > >he used to draw that conclusion, or if he was instead going from more > >general principles. > > Steuard Jensen > > The thing is, I don't see any similar constructs. Wharf becomes Wharves, not > Wharrows. Loaf becomes Loaves, not Loarrows. Its a mystery to me too. > > Russ An example, [though here akin in the sense of an etymological sound change, rather to than plural inflection] : Anglo Saxon 'Beorg'= mountain to the word 'Barrow' = mound; archaic- 'mountain or mound'. AS plural 'Dweorgas' to 'Dwarrows'. Cheers, Cian ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dwarrows? Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 27 Jul 1999 14:09:53 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990727100953.10904.00001351@ngol08.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >It has languished unanswered by me because I sadly don't know the >answer. I have always assumed that Tolkien had simply traced the >evolution of similar words that remained in common usage, and >extrapolated to "dwarf". However, I don't know of the examples that >he used to draw that conclusion, or if he was instead going from more >general principles. > Steuard Jensen The thing is, I don't see any similar constructs. Wharf becomes Wharves, not Wharrows. Loaf becomes Loaves, not Loarrows. Its a mystery to me too. Russ