From: Earendil the Mariner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: A! Elbereth Gilthoniel - please help! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:29:34 -0400 Lines: 35 Message-ID: <379CFD64.9C01A8F@ma.ultranet.com> Reply-To: mas613@ma.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: Nsv+vTfj3utBFB3c0HIDTew0/pQz9/jPKnWnMo1Bw/c= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 1999 00:26:16 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail I've been trying to translate that old favorite - A! Elberth GIlthoniel, and have been having quite a bit of trouble. Could anyone give me some help? A! Elbereth Gilthoniel, - "Oh! Varda Queen of Stars" - easy silivren penna miriel - "silivren" has something to do with "to shine" and "miriel" is "jewels" o menel aglar elemath! - "menel"="heavens", "alglar"="glory" or "praise", and "elemath"="the stars" Na-chaered palan-diriel - "palandiriel" may be related to "palantir" - that which sees far (palan = far and wide, tir=watch) o galadhremnin ennorath, - either "galad"="radiance" or "galadh"="tree", ennorath = "Middle-earth" fanuilos, le linnathon - best thing i can think of is "lin" - "song" or "pool" and "thon", which is pine-tree nef aear, si nef aearon - "si"="now", "aear" may be related to "ear" - sea Beyond that I'm lost. Please help! ------ "pedo mellon a minno." - a simple sentence at Moria that confused even Gandalf, the wisest of the Maiar - Earendil Peredhil, the Mariner ###### From: Wes Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A! Elbereth Gilthoniel - please help! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:36:05 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <379CFD64.9C01A8F@ma.ultranet.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: 27 Jul 1999 01:37:45 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Jul 26 18:45:05 1999 Organization: .. Lines: 40 Mime-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust26.tnt2.decatur.al.da.uu.net Message-ID: <379D0D05.E01ECCEF@gmx.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Earendil the Mariner wrote: > > I've been trying to translate that old favorite - A! Elberth GIlthoniel, > and have been having quite a bit of trouble. Could anyone give me some > help? > > A! Elbereth Gilthoniel, - "Oh! Varda Queen of Stars" - easy > > silivren penna miriel - "silivren" has something to do with "to shine" > and "miriel" is "jewels" > > o menel aglar elemath! - "menel"="heavens", "alglar"="glory" or > "praise", and "elemath"="the stars" > > Na-chaered palan-diriel - "palandiriel" may be related to "palantir" - > that which sees far (palan = far and wide, tir=watch) > > o galadhremnin ennorath, - either "galad"="radiance" or > "galadh"="tree", ennorath = "Middle-earth" > > fanuilos, le linnathon - best thing i can think of is "lin" - "song" > or "pool" and "thon", which is pine-tree > > nef aear, si nef aearon - "si"="now", "aear" may be related to "ear" - > sea > > Beyond that I'm lost. Please help! > > ------ > > "pedo mellon a minno." - a simple sentence at Moria that confused even > Gandalf, the wisest of the Maiar > > - Earendil Peredhil, the Mariner Why bother? -- wes wesss@gmx.net icq - 42395728 ###### From: Earendil the Mariner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A! Elbereth Gilthoniel - please help! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:50:47 -0400 Lines: 13 Message-ID: <379D1069.2357CB06@ma.ultranet.com> References: <379CFD64.9C01A8F@ma.ultranet.com> Reply-To: mas613@ma.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: a0cPtu26/f9FZUUrIWpJoHwxu11v3zTs2GUraJEZD6Y= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 1999 01:47:25 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail On that note, does anyone know whether, anywhere his library of post-humous publications (or perhaps even one while he was alive - OMG!), Tolkien ever had made a "dictionary" of Quenya or the other Elven speeches more detailed than that compiled from the appendices of LotR and the index of The Silmarillion? ------------ "Of all of Isaac Asimov's gifts, perhaps the greatest was his ability to write books after he died." - Anonymous "If JRR Tolkien was alive today...he'd by frantically scratching at the inside of his coffin, trying to get out." - Anonymous ###### Message-ID: <379D2724.2EDD6565@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A! Elbereth Gilthoniel - please help! References: <379CFD64.9C01A8F@ma.ultranet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 50 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:27:33 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 933046076 24.128.99.214 (Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:27:56 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:27:56 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Tolkien translates this fragment of the Sindarin hymn in 'The Road Goes Ever On" > I've been trying to translate that old favorite - A! Elberth GIlthoniel, > and have been having quite a bit of trouble. Could anyone give me some > help? > > A! Elbereth Gilthoniel, - "Oh! Varda Queen of Stars" - easy Oh Elbereth starkindler > silivren penna miriel - "silivren" has something to do with "to shine" > and "miriel" is "jewels" white glittering, slants down sparkling like jewels, > o menel aglar elemath! - "menel"="heavens", "alglar"="glory" or > "praise", and "elemath"="the stars" >From the firmament, the glory of the starry host > Na-chaered palan-diriel - "palandiriel" may be related to "palantir" - > that which sees far (palan = far and wide, tir=watch) To- remote distance, far-having gazed > o galadhremnin ennorath, - either "galad"="radiance" or > "galadh"="tree", ennorath = "Middle-earth" from the tree-tangled lands of Middle Earth (Also found in a footnote to appendix E -- "tree-woven'' there) > fanuilos, le linnathon - best thing i can think of is "lin" - "song" > or "pool" and "thon", which is pine-tree Fanuilos, to thee I will chant (in letters, Tolkien speaks of fanuilos as relating to the whiteness of clouds) > nef aear, si nef aearon - "si"="now", "aear" may be related to "ear" - > sea on this side of ocean, from here on this side of the great ocean. > Cheers, Cian ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Subject: Re: A! Elbereth Gilthoniel - please help! X-Nntp-Posting-Host: harper.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) References: <379CFD64.9C01A8F@ma.ultranet.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:02:50 GMT Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews2!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth mas613@ma.ultranet.com: > I've been trying to translate that old favorite - A! Elberth GIlthoniel, > and have been having quite a bit of trouble. Could anyone give me some > help? I'm afraid I won't be much help directly; my Quenya isn't what I'd like it to be, I'm afraid. However, I can point you in a good direction: Tolkien supplied a translation of this full song to Donald Swann for his "The Road Goes Ever On" Tolkien song-cycle. I don't know where you can find a copy these days, but that is almost certainly your best bet for a "canonical" translation. Steuard Jensen ###### From: gordonlew@aol.com (GordonLew) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A! Elbereth Gilthoniel - please help! Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 27 Jul 1999 04:35:36 GMT References: <379D0D05.E01ECCEF@gmx.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990727003536.10027.00002155@ng-fk1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail > >> I've been trying to translate that old favorite - A! Elberth GIlthoniel, >> and have been having quite a bit of trouble. Could anyone give me some >> help? > >Why bother? >-- Why bother with that asking why he bothers? Perhaps you didn't mean it to sound like a putdown but it comes off that way. I would think that any reader of this newsgroup could at least understand why, even if he didn't feel the need himself. He has an interest in language as did Tolkien, it may not serve a practical purpose but it can be enjoyable and intellectually stimulating. Feanole ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A! Elbereth Gilthoniel - please help! Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <379d5a2e.85595742@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <379CFD64.9C01A8F@ma.ultranet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-39.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 18 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:09:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@swbell.net X-Trace: typhoon01.swbell.net 933059244 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:07:24 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:07:24 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon01.swbell.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:02:50 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth mas613@ma.ultranet.com: >> I've been trying to translate that old favorite - A! Elberth GIlthoniel, >> and have been having quite a bit of trouble. Could anyone give me some >> help? >I'm afraid I won't be much help directly; my Quenya isn't what I'd It still wouldn't help. "A! Elbereth Gilthoniel" is Sindarin, not Quenya. Sindarin, BTW, is quite a bit more complex than Quenya. It always gives me a headache, in part because it's so counterintuitive and in part because it just doesn't sound as nice as Quenya, Tolkien's guess about the kinds of sounds most readers will appreciate notwithstanding. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A! Elbereth Gilthoniel - please help! Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <379d5bbe.85995633@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <379CFD64.9C01A8F@ma.ultranet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-39.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 10 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:12:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@swbell.net X-Trace: typhoon01.swbell.net 933059457 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:10:57 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:10:57 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon01.swbell.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:29:34 -0400, Earendil the Mariner wrote: >I've been trying to translate that old favorite - A! Elberth GIlthoniel, >and have been having quite a bit of trouble. Could anyone give me some >help? There's a pretty detailed analysis, including Tolkien's own translation, at http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/elbereth.htm . ###### Message-ID: <379D97AF.2331637D@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A! Elbereth Gilthoniel - please help! References: <379CFD64.9C01A8F@ma.ultranet.com> <379D2724.2EDD6565@mediaone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 64 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:27:43 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 933074888 24.128.99.214 (Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:28:08 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:28:08 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Cian wrote: Tolkien translates this fragment of the Sindarin hymn in 'The Road Goes Ever On". I give this translation below. As to your second post on Elven languages, Ardalambion (on the web) contains an extensive corpus for both Quenya & Sindarin, as well as other information on Tolkien's various invented languages (even very early ones!) There you will also find Mr. Fauskanger's translation of 'Elbereth Gilthonial', (based on the one below of course) and some -variant- lines of the hymn with interpretation. "The Lost Road" (of HOME) contains a work called 'The Etymologies', but definitely read Christopher Tolkien's forward for details. Sindarin is called 'Noldorin' within. > > I've been trying to translate that old favorite - A! Elberth GIlthoniel, > > and have been having quite a bit of trouble. Could anyone give me some > > help? > > > > A! Elbereth Gilthoniel, - "Oh! Varda Queen of Stars" - easy > Oh Elbereth starkindler > silivren penna miriel - "silivren" has something to do with "to shine" > > and "miriel" is "jewels" white glittering, slants down sparkling like jewels, > o menel aglar elemath! - "menel"="heavens", "alglar"="glory" or > > "praise", and "elemath"="the stars" >From [the] firmament, [the] glory of the starry host > > Na-chaered palan-diriel - "palandiriel" may be related to "palantir" - > > that which sees far (palan = far and wide, tir=watch) To- remote distance, far-having gazed > o galadhremnin ennorath, - either "galad"="radiance" or > > "galadh"="tree", ennorath = "Middle-earth" from the tree-tangled lands of Middle Earth (Also found in a footnote to appendix E -- "tree-woven'' there) > fanuilos, le linnathon - best thing i can think of is "lin" - "song" > > or "pool" and "thon", which is pine-tree Fanuilos, to thee I will chant (in letters, Tolkien speaks of fanuilos as relating to the whiteness of clouds) > nef aear, si nef aearon - "si"="now", "aear" may be related to "ear" - > > sea > > on this side of ocean, from here on this side of the great ocean > . > Cian ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Subject: Re: A! Elbereth Gilthoniel - please help! X-Nntp-Posting-Host: harper.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) References: <379CFD64.9C01A8F@ma.ultranet.com> <379d5a2e.85595742@news.pc-intouch.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:57:59 GMT Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uwm.edu!uwvax!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells): > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >I'm afraid I won't be much help directly; my Quenya isn't what I'd > It still wouldn't help. "A! Elbereth Gilthoniel" is Sindarin, not > Quenya. Whoops! Ok, this makes it blatantly obvious: neither my Quenya nor my Sindarin are anywhere _near_ what I'd like them to be. (You know, "Gilthoniel" _could_ have been a useful clue, had I stopped to think... ah well.) [Steuard slinks away, blushing furiously.] Steuard Jensen ###### From: Earendil the Mariner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A! Elbereth Gilthoniel - please help! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:55:33 -0400 Lines: 6 Message-ID: <379E1CC2.474FFC9C@ma.ultranet.com> References: <379CFD64.9C01A8F@ma.ultranet.com> Reply-To: mas613@ma.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: L4Rr36Zscl0OktE0qvE1SSoL67Y7mJyg8NHwbaxsvjE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 1999 20:52:20 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Actually, the reason I posted this in the first place was that I am trying to compile a list of Quenya/Sindarin roots and words. Elberth... seemed one way to get some more words. You can look at the beginning of this at http://tolkien.iwarp.com. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A! Elbereth Gilthoniel - please help! Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <379ebdd8.176658867@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <379CFD64.9C01A8F@ma.ultranet.com> <379d5a2e.85595742@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-55.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 20 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:35:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@swbell.net X-Trace: typhoon01.swbell.net 933150802 207.212.198.18 (Wed, 28 Jul 1999 01:33:22 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 01:33:22 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.32.206.55!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon01.swbell.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:57:59 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells): >> (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >> >I'm afraid I won't be much help directly; my Quenya isn't what I'd >> It still wouldn't help. "A! Elbereth Gilthoniel" is Sindarin, not >> Quenya. > >Whoops! Ok, this makes it blatantly obvious: neither my Quenya nor my >Sindarin are anywhere _near_ what I'd like them to be. (You know, >"Gilthoniel" _could_ have been a useful clue, had I stopped to >think... ah well.) "Elbereth" is also a clue. The Quenya form would be "Elentari", which actually does show up occasionally among Quenya speakers. (Note that Galadriel's song "Namarie" is Quenya. She doesn't even use "Elentari", though; she goes for the more direct form "Varda", which is Varda's actual *name*, rather than a descriptive term.)