From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:12:51 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Thu Jul 22 09:25:06 1999 References: <19990617203105.26261.00000859@ng-ba1.aol.com> <7mg4qr$sfk$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <378BD062.79DFD893@bellsouth.net> <378d3471.41921262@news.earthlink.net> <7mkis1$hi6$5@news.worldonline.nl> <378e20e6.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <379240B7.99E0957E@wizard.net> <7n488u$rk9$1@weber.a2000.nl> <3796928C.F48FAFA7@wizard.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 70 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-003mnminnp193.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 22 Jul 1999 16:17:04 GMT Message-ID: <37973fa1.317285986@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail I finally found the thread in which this post was hiding. Changing subject line for that reason. On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:39:56 -0400, "James Kuyper Jr." wrote: >db wrote: >> >> James Kuyper Jr. wrote in message <379240B7.99E0957E@wizard.net>... >> >I wish that someone with the appropriate skill had been explicitly given >> >permission to do so by Tolkien himself. It's too late for that now, and >> >I'd object as much as the purists to any attempt to do it without his >> >permission. >> >> I think his permission is irrelevant (oh yeah, and resistance is futile). My >> only concern would be the quality of the work done. If it's not up to par, >> forget it. >> db > >Real quality writing is almost never done in someone else's universe; >it's done in worlds created by the author alone. Not necessarily so. If someone creates a sufficiently persuasive and detailed universe, then for purposes of fiction it's as "real" as writing about a real-world era or place. Colleen McCullough, for example, didn't create Republican Rome, or the Empire, or Juilius Caesar, yet she has written novels set in that place and era and has created a Julius-Caesar-the-Character based upon the historic Julius Caesar. I would see novels set in Middle-earth, involving already-established characters, in the same way. They wouldn't be "the original character," any more than a fictional representation of a historic figure is "the orignal person," but they **would** be an author's interpretation of that character/person. In the hands of gifted authors, that would be worth reading. No, I'm not delusional enough to believe that Middle-earth really existed...but within the fiction of Middle-earth-as-history, such an approach to writing original stories set within that history strikes me as eminently suitable, even desirable. > At least, that's my >personal judgement based upon reading a fair amount of fanfic, shared >universes and collaborations. I suspect the quality in many, if not all of these cases, had more to do with the authors than with the fact that it was fanfic. And, too, I likewise suspect that the **best** fanfic is in fact passing in the Real World as Original Fiction, sufficiently disguised to keep the copyright lawyers at bay. ;-) What you've been reading might not be a representative sample. And, too, there's the matter of expectations. Are you expecting fanfic to read like that of the author who created the universe? Then you will inevitably be disappointed. Fanfic is really the work of the person(s) writing it, and is best read as an original work **inspired by** and **based upon** the works of Author XYZ. IMNSHO. >The only reason I'd have been happy with an authorized re-write is that >so much of what Tolkien left behind is incomplete. That enhances the fiction of his work being bits and pieces of a larger history, of which only a comparative handful of records remain. ;-) "For if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without." -- Charge of the Star Goddess The Secular Paganist http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan (new URL) ###### From: ephebe22@aol.com (ryan k) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Jul 1999 19:54:08 GMT References: <37973fa1.317285986@news.earthlink.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990722155408.06207.00000084@ng-fu1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Prembone: >They wouldn't be >"the original character," any more than a >fictional representation of a historic figure >is "the orignal person," but they **would** >be an author's interpretation of that >character/person. In the hands of >gifted authors, that would be worth >reading. It would be a thankless task. A new novel set in Middle-Earth would appeal to a very specific, very demanding audience. Creating a narrative that is factually consistent with the world that Tolkien created would be the least of your troubles. I guess it comes down to what sort of gifts this hypothetical gifted author would possess. My favorite author among contemporary writers is Don Delillo. I think he writes outstanding prose, but I cringe to think what Middle Earth might look like through the eyes of the author of White Noise =). On the other hand, I'm not sure I would want to read an author whose primary gift is mimacry. I like what Peter Carrey did with Jack Maggs. The book is strongly reminiscent of Dickens, but it never crosses the line into parody. Maggs is leaner and more detatched than a Dickens novel, more modern (big surprise). The only fantasy author I've read besides Tolkien is Stephen Lawhead, and that was years ago. Are there contemporary fantasy authors whom Tolkien fans deem up to the task of writing a sequel (or prequel) to LotR? ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 20:53:35 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Sat Jul 24 14:05:09 1999 References: <37973fa1.317285986@news.earthlink.net> <19990722155408.06207.00000084@ng-fu1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 117 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-006mnminnp186.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 24 Jul 1999 21:00:40 GMT Message-ID: <3799e103.489698350@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newscon02!prodigy.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On 22 Jul 1999 19:54:08 GMT, ephebe22@aol.com (ryan k) wrote: >Prembone: >>They wouldn't be >>"the original character," any more than a >fictional representation of a >historic figure >is "the orignal person," but they **would** >be an author's >interpretation of that >character/person. In the hands of >>gifted authors, that would be worth >reading. > >It would be a thankless task. A new novel set in Middle-Earth would appeal to >a very specific, very demanding audience. Considering the broad appeal Tolkien's works have, I find that assertion difficult to believe. ;-) In any case, a good story would appeal to anyone who enjoys reading a good story, not just to the die-hard Tolkien geeks who haunt r.a.b.t. However, it appears to me as if you are thinking in too-narrow terms of someone attempting to "do Tolkien," as opposed to writing his or her **own** original story set in Middle-earth. In the hands of a good writer, Middle-earth is just one more "historical" setting in which many interesting stories may be woven. And, too, there is the matter of genre. A story set in Middle-earth would not necessarily have to be a strict "fantasy" story, or "heroic epic" story. As is evident from discussion on this group, people who like Tolkien like different aspects of his work; some of us like the heroic battle stuff, others like the down-to-earth hobbity stuff, still others like the lofty elvish stuff. Plenty of room there for seeing Middle-earth through different interpretive eyes, as long as the authors have done their research first. ;-) It would be possible (and to my mind quite amusing and enjoyable) to write stories of the Shire, or tales of life at the inn in Bree, that focus on mundane domestic dramas and the interrelationships of various characters (not necessarily in the Tilde sense, mind you), or, say, on the fascinating folk that come from all over the world and pass through Dorwinion, or Minas Tirith, or... The possibilities are as wide as the writer's imagination. And as we've seen from the "stories we'd like to see" thread, there's so much story left untold: Frodo's childhood, Sam's life as Mayor, Merry and Pippin's lives, etc., etc. No, it wouldn't be Tolkien, but it doesn't have to be in order to be interesting or believable. > Creating a narrative that is >factually consistent with the world that Tolkien created would be the least of >your troubles. I guess it comes down to what sort of gifts this hypothetical >gifted author would possess. The basic gift of good storytelling. A way with words. The ability to develop compelling characterization that makes the reader care about the characters and what happens to them. In other words, be a "gifted writer." > My favorite author among contemporary writers is >Don Delillo. I think he writes outstanding prose, but I cringe to think what >Middle Earth might look like through the eyes of the author of White Noise =). I haven't read his work, but I think that seeing Middle-earth (or any setting) through different eyes has the potential for pleasant surprises as well as for painful cringes. Look, for example, at what Marian Zimmer Bradley did with the Arthurian legends. >On the other hand, I'm not sure I would want to read an author whose primary >gift is mimacry. Oh, no. I'm not talking about "mimicry." I'm talking about an author writing his or her own story, in his or her own voice (or rather the inflection of his/her voice that suits the novel at hand), a novel whose setting in this case happens to be some place and time in Middle-earth. I think that's where a lot of fanfic and Tolkien-inspired fiction ends up sucking royally [1]: it attempts to IMITATE Tolkien rather than be a work INSPIRED BY Tolkien and BUILT UPON Tolkien but still very much the author's own work. Again: It is possible to write an original novel about historical figures such as Julius Caesar. It is also possible to write an original novel based upon, say, the Arthurian legends. In the same way, it is possible to write an original novel (or short story, or twelve-volume epic...?) about the "historical" figures Tolkien presented in Middle-earth, playing along with his fiction that he did not know everything about the people involved, but was merely "discovering" fragments of a much larger history, leaving room for creative speculation within the bounds of "historical plausibility." > Are there contemporary fantasy authors whom >Tolkien fans deem up to the task of writing a sequel (or prequel) to LotR? If you make it a matter of Living Up To The Almighty Tolkien...nobody is up to such an expectation, not even Tolkien himself. If you make it a matter of Writing A Good Book Judged On Its Own Merits as something inspired by Tolkien but not to be compared to Tolkien, still less expected to **be** Tolkien, then yes, I think there are very good writers, fantasy or otherwise, who would be able to present us with a book worth reading. The question is whether the people interested in writing Middle-earth-based fiction and the people who are the best writers of our day are mutually-exclusive groups of people. ;-) Finally, I would consider it a breath of fresh air to have authors outside of the fantasy genre work with Middle-earth. People within a genre tend to get stuck in ruts of the genre's conventions. Fresh blood could be invigorating. **Footnote** [1] Also sprach the Gifted Writer. ;-) "Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you're alive, it isn't." -- Richard Bach The Secular Paganist http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan (new URL) ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 24 Jul 1999 21:38:58 GMT References: <3799e103.489698350@news.earthlink.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990724173858.14009.00001101@ng-fj1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Whether or not a world can be shared depends greatly on the world. I think one of the reasons TV shows spawn the most tie-in writing is that they were originally developed with the specific idea of being shared worlds -- here are the worlds, these are the limits, play around in them at will. Some quite good fiction *can* be written in these worlds, I think, though it will never gain critical approval. Fans know the difference between something good set in the world as opposed to something awful (eg, Quantum Leap fans praise the QL "Angels Unaware" but revile the one whose title I can't remember, where the main character Leaps into two people simultaneiously ... one follows the rules of hte universe and tells a good story within it; the other misses every point of detail and tells a goofy story). So it does depend on the world, and on the writer. I figure it's better to just outright write in a shared world than think of an idea when perusing it, then make up some really similar world and pretend it's something different. The shared world allows some intellectual honesty, and the writer is free to write his or her own story, rather than constantly trying to disguise the origin of the idea. I also like shared worlds because they hearken back to old days of storytelling, when all the bards were working in pretty much the same universe, and came up with such a wonderful variety of tales. It's a poor substitute, I admit, but at least it's still available to us. Now, the question of whether or not Middle Earth is a good shared world is an interesting one, because as soon as the copyright is out, it will almost certainly *become* a shared world, no matter what we say about it, so we may as well get it out of our systems. Prembone makes a good point about the likely failure when people try to be Tolkien, rather than try to write their own Middle Earth stories. There is only one JRRT, and now he is no more. Writers in Middle Earth would have to abide by certain rules (I know that the rule for most tie-ins is "Leave the world the way you found it!"), but a lot of stories can be told within those rules. Some rules are argued about, some aren't. Hobbits can't suddenly sport wings, but balrogs might or might not have them. (This is why I think it good to keep the canon limited -- more flexibility, which gives people something to argue about in newsgroups.) Could someone with a different voice write in the Shire? I think someone could -- a tie-in is not supposed to be a replacement for Tolkien; it's just a story set in Middle Earth. It could be very good, but not be something that it would have occurred to the Professor to write. I don't think he'd be bothered by someone's interest in writing about the life of hobbit women, but I don't think he ever would have taken up that interest himself. So to have that story (presuming you want to hear it), you actually *need* someone else's voice. I've rambled enough; I'll stop now. --- FernWithy "If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical fact, a practical force in human affairs." -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre) ###### From: ephebe22@aol.com (ryan k) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 25 Jul 1999 03:30:09 GMT References: <3799e103.489698350@news.earthlink.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990724233009.09934.00001602@ng-cj1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Pembrone: >In any case, a good story would >appeal to anyone who enjoys reading a good story, >not just to the die-hard Tolkien geeks who haunt >r.a.b.t. >If you make it a matter of Living Up To The Almighty >Tolkien...nobody is up to such an expectation, not >even Tolkien himself. Obquote: "Not especially my beloved Paris" It's not my position that it shouldn't or couldn't be done, I'm just trying to understand why it hasn't been done. >In the hands of a good writer, Middle-earth is just one >more "historical" setting in which many interesting >stories may be woven. There is a difference, however. The historical world isn't textual in the sense that Tolkien's fictional world is. If history is a confluence of texts, and I mean that in the least post-modern sense possible =), they are texts with multiple authors. When Gore Vidal writes an historical novel, he draws from many different sources. An author who writes in a story set in Middle-Earth has but one source to draw upon, and that source is another novelist. I can't imagine a capable writer not chaffing at that, which is why I agree, as you say, that ability and inclination are at odds here. Why not invent another world all-together and be measured strictly by the merits your own imagination? I've argued elsewhere on these boards that Tolkien didn't write enough, that he left too much undramatized: I want to read these books as much as you do, I just don't think anyone is going to write them. The question is, why? ###### From: RLV Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:52:56 +0200 Organization: RLV Inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <379B08A8.7391@xxxx.xxx> References: <3799e103.489698350@news.earthlink.net> <19990724233009.09934.00001602@ng-cj1.aol.com> Reply-To: xxxx@xxxx.xxx NNTP-Posting-Host: tn174-16.tinn.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol.ie!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!not-for-mail ryan k wrote: > > Pembrone: > >In the hands of a good writer, Middle-earth is just one >more "historical" > setting in which many interesting >stories may be woven. > > There is a difference, however. The historical world isn't textual in the > sense that Tolkien's fictional world is. If history is a confluence of texts, > and I mean that in the least post-modern sense possible =), they are texts with > multiple authors. When Gore Vidal writes an historical novel, he draws from > many different sources. An author who writes in a story set in Middle-Earth has > but one source to draw upon, and that source is another novelist. I can't > imagine a capable writer not chaffing at that, which is why I agree, as you > say, that ability and inclination are at odds here. Why not invent another > world all-together and be measured strictly by the merits your own imagination? But why should he do it, if Tolkien's world is a perfectly good scenario for the story he wants to tell? If the wants to tell a story about some people similar to hobbits, living in some place similar to the Shire, why must he invent the "snoggins" and settle them in "The County", and describe them with all detail very similar to hobbits and Shire, to be able to telll his story. This way he is forced to make a derivative work, with the risk of being accused of plagiarism, when he had a perfectly good scenario ready to go for him to use to write *HIS* story (not Tolkien's). R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Call me mead-tongue" ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Date: 25 Jul 1999 21:00:57 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 101 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uhfms5zbq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3799e103.489698350@news.earthlink.net> <19990724233009.09934.00001602@ng-cj1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 ephebe22@aol.com (ryan k) writes: > > Pembrone: > >In any case, a good story would > >appeal to anyone who enjoys reading a good story, >not just to the die-hard > Tolkien geeks who haunt >r.a.b.t. > > >If you make it a matter of Living Up To The Almighty >Tolkien...nobody is up > to such an expectation, not >even Tolkien himself. :-) LotR is simply an unique original. Sequels are usually not up to the original, Silmarillion for one, note that I do like it though. > >In the hands of a good writer, Middle-earth is just one >more "historical" > setting in which many interesting >stories may be woven. > > There is a difference, however. The historical world isn't textual in the > sense that Tolkien's fictional world is. Hmmm. how many writers have written stories playing in the middle ages, Arthurian times, Homers time, pharaonic Agypt, etc? I doubt all of them have been and visited the historical sites (sofar even known). So for them these are essentially just textual worlds (and for most of the readers who will critic the works). > If history is a confluence of texts, > and I mean that in the least post-modern sense possible =), they are texts wit h > multiple authors. For Homer (Illiad, Odyssee (sp?)) we only have one author: Homer. (OK, we have some historical artefacts and texts about them) > When Gore Vidal writes an historical novel, he draws from > many different sources. An author who writes in a story set in Middle-Earth ha s > but one source to draw upon, and that source is another novelist. Not unlike someone setting an story in the Homerian world. Or actually any other world for which there exists only on historian reporting on it. Tolkien is pretending to be exactly such an one author who has as first one translated the Red Book, quasi as if Homer were only available by one collector/translator of the greek text fragments. > imagine a capable writer not chaffing at that, which is why I agree, as you > say, that ability and inclination are at odds here. Possible. But it sure has more to do with snobbism. And then there is the monster of copyright laws, which scares publishers. >> Why not invent another > world all-together and be measured strictly by the merits your own > imagination? Because an existing one can be an nice setting. Because an author can be inspired by an existing setting to invent a story. And you do save having to define a world, not to forget boring readers who are in for an entertaining read with a lot of background details, while those who relish seeing a story with background can fit yours into a known one. > I've argued elsewhere on these boards that Tolkien didn't write enough, that h e > left too much undramatized: That definitely. > I want to read these books as much as you do, I > just don't think anyone is going to write them. The question is, why? Well that depends on what books you want to see: - credible pre-/mid-/postquels to the actual figures in LotR would require JRRT himself - attemps at rewriting any story are usually bad (just like cover versions or remixes of famous pop songs) - any other story playing in ME could be written, if not for authors snobbery or copyrights (there actually exists a lot amateur writing set in ME). - not to forget all them RPGers, who are after all dice-guided groups of authors writing in real-time (I suppose I should start writing up the logs of the games I play in). The Internet will make the amateur stuff get published. But amateur is not written by pros, so it may not be you what you are looking for. OTOH, if I look at the problems JRRT had with publishing, I would not be surprised if he had published his originals on the net, if it had been available then. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:25:35 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Sun Jul 25 09:35:07 1999 References: <3799e103.489698350@news.earthlink.net> <19990724233009.09934.00001602@ng-cj1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 86 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-006mnminnp224.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 25 Jul 1999 16:28:32 GMT Message-ID: <379b3765.4390986@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On 25 Jul 1999 03:30:09 GMT, ephebe22@aol.com (ryan k) wrote: >Pembrone: >>In the hands of a good writer, Middle-earth is just one >more "historical" >setting in which many interesting >stories may be woven. > >There is a difference, however. The historical world isn't textual in the >sense that Tolkien's fictional world is. If history is a confluence of texts, >and I mean that in the least post-modern sense possible =), they are texts with >multiple authors. I wonder if there are cases in which a historical detail depends upon only one text. > When Gore Vidal writes an historical novel, he draws from >many different sources. An author who writes in a story set in Middle-Earth has >but one source to draw upon, and that source is another novelist. I can't >imagine a capable writer not chaffing at that Depends upon the writer's imagination. Myself, I see it as a springboard for developing further "historical texts." ;-) See it as Tolkien's being the first of many texts yet to be "discovered." There's a project that stirs heart and imagination! I only wish we would be alive to see it come to pass, as it inevitably will once the copyright expires. >, which is why I agree, as you >say, that ability and inclination are at odds here. Why not invent another >world all-together and be measured strictly by the merits your own imagination? Why not do both? ;-) All the invention in the world won't change the fact that, for example, I want to write about **Frodo** coming back to Middle-earth, by the grace of Iluvatar, and about the specific challenges **Frodo** would meet and have to resolve in order to reintegrate into Shire/Middle-earthly light. To some extent, he encounters the same issues any wounded hero would encounter; to some extent, he encoutners the same issues any **supernaturally** wounded hero would encounter; but there are details that remain "uniquely Frodo," and can only satisfyingly be written about by writing **about Frodo**. The same would be said about all other characters, events, settings, etc., within Middle-earth that people want to write about or see stories written about. Mainly, it's the fact that so much more is unknown than known that makes it intriguing to write within Middle-earth. We become "co-discoverers" (co-inventors) with Tolkien in uncovering the untold stories. >I've argued elsewhere on these boards that Tolkien didn't write enough, that he >left too much undramatized: I want to read these books as much as you do, I >just don't think anyone is going to write them. Oh, I think they're being written. It's just a matter of whether anyone outside of a handful of family and friends will ever **know** they've been written. Expect an explosion of unpublished manuscripts coming to light as soon as that copyright expirees. > The question is, why? I think that if it were indicated that permission would be extended to works approved by the Estate, then more people would put their serious writing energies into such labors. But lifetimes being limited, most of us decide to either "transform" our fanfic or otherwise realize that we'd better focus on writing stuff we can publish. Still, as one who often begins an original story with imaginings about an existing story (including, of course, LOTR), I would encourage people to follow their muses whereever they lead. If you have a strong, compelling vision for a derivative work, go ahead and start writing it; that's where your vision and energy and inspiration are. Later on you can go into Editor Mode and start considering how to make an original story out of your "inspired" derivative material. But if you're afraid to do anything derivative, or think it "beneath" you, then you stand to miss out on the fruits of the original inspired impulse. "Levon wears his war wound like a crown..." -- Taupin The Elton John Worship Page http://www.geocities.com/prembone/elton ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:48:00 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Sun Jul 25 10:55:06 1999 References: <3799e103.489698350@news.earthlink.net> <19990724233009.09934.00001602@ng-cj1.aol.com> <379b3765.4390986@news.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-006mnminnp224.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 25 Jul 1999 16:50:57 GMT Message-ID: <379b3f62.6436105@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:25:35 GMT, prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) wrote: >All the invention in the world won't change the fact that, for >example, I want to write about **Frodo** coming back to Middle-earth, >by the grace of Iluvatar, and about the specific challenges **Frodo** >would meet and have to resolve in order to reintegrate into >Shire/Middle-earthly light. Oops. That should read "Shire/Middle-earthly LIFE," not "light." However, reading it as "light" has interesting connotations of its own...one of those fortuitous "I know not what I've written till after I've written it" occurences. ;-) "Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you're alive, it isn't." -- Richard Bach The Secular Paganist http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan (new URL) CyberKaryn: The Writings http://clik.to/cyberkaryn ###### From: ephebe22@aol.com (ryan k) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 25 Jul 1999 17:02:36 GMT References: <379B08A8.7391@xxxx.xxx> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990725130236.02201.00001284@ng-ft1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail RLV: >But why should he do it, if Tolkien's world >is a perfectly good scenario for the story >he wants to tell? If the wants to tell a story >about some people similar to hobbits, >living in some place similar to the Shire, >why must he invent the "snoggins" and >settle them in "The County", and >describe them with all detail very >similar to hobbits and Shire, to be >able to telll his story. I hadn't assumed that our hypothetical writer is interested in writing a Tolkienesque story, i.e. that he or she wanted to construct a story around hobbit-like people in a Shire-like environment. Now that you bring it up, however, I don't think I'd be interested in a story whose genesis is so casual: "a perfectly good scenario." The writer must have something to say *about* Middle-Earth, otherwise the result will be indistinguishable from fiction franchises like Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and Star Trek. Borges: "The fact is that every writer *creates* his own precursors." Borges didn't have "The Phantom Menace: The Novelization" in mind when he wrote that, but I'd like to think that the writer(s) who takes on Middle-Earth will take this quote to heart. ###### From: ephebe22@aol.com (ryan k) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 25 Jul 1999 18:08:45 GMT References: <379b3765.4390986@news.earthlink.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990725140845.02201.00001312@ng-ft1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Prembone: >I wonder if there are cases in which a >historical detail depends upon only one >text. I suspect there are, but that isn't quite what I had in mind. One could write a novel based on the correspondence between two 17th century lovers, and that would be a work of historical fiction based on one text. However, the lovers, even if they aspired to sonnet-like artfulness, would be engaged in a different sort of "fabrication" than the novelist. They're two different types of discourse, and consequently we don't compare them in the sense that we compare two novels. You mentioned Colleen McCullough. I don't think saying of her novel, "it was good, but not as good as Caesar's Commentaries," amounts to much in the end. How do you compare the two? >Depends upon the writer's imagination. >Myself, I see it as a springboard for >developing further "historical texts." ;-) >See it as Tolkien's being the first of many >texts yet to be "discovered." Have you ever read Borges' Labyrinths? The story "Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" pretty much literalizes the metaphor you use here. The story begins: "I owe the discovery of Uqbar to the cojunction of a mirror and an encyclopedia." Now there's an attention-grabber. =) >All the invention in the world won't change >the fact that, for example, I want to write >about **Frodo** coming back to >Middle-earth, If you really want to break with Tolkien, without breaking with Tolkien, leave Iluvatar out of the equation. "As Frodo awoke one morning from uneasy dreams he found himself transformed..." =). >Expect an explosion of unpublished >manuscripts coming to light as soon as >that copyright expirees. When does the copyright expire? ###### From: RLV Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:59:58 +0200 Organization: RLV Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <379B96EE.411A@xxxx.xxx> References: <379B08A8.7391@xxxx.xxx> <19990725130236.02201.00001284@ng-ft1.aol.com> Reply-To: xxxx@xxxx.xxx NNTP-Posting-Host: tn174-17.tinn.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.dpn.de!news-out2.f.gtn.com!news-in1.f.gtn.com!195.206.66.162.MISMATCH!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newsfeed.mad.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!not-for-mail ryan k wrote: > > RLV: > I hadn't assumed that our hypothetical writer is interested in writing a > Tolkienesque story, i.e. that he or she wanted to construct a story around > hobbit-like people in a Shire-like environment. It was just an example. There are many possibilities: the early years of some of the known characters; the story of the fading of the elves during the Fourth Age, how did the Woses see the War of the Ring; whatever. >Now that you bring it up, > however, I don't think I'd be interested in a story whose genesis is so casual: > "a perfectly good scenario." The writer must have something to say *about* > Middle-Earth, otherwise the result will be indistinguishable from fiction > franchises like Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and Star Trek. Borges: "The fact is > that every writer *creates* his own precursors." Borges didn't have "The > Phantom Menace: The Novelization" in mind when he wrote that, but I'd like to > think that the writer(s) who takes on Middle-Earth will take this quote to > heart. Of course, I would only want to read ME fiction from somebody who had something to say. I'm assuming the writer who tries will be a good writer with a good story to tell. If one of those things fail, it will be bad fiction, be it ambiented in ME or in the far West. I wouldn't be interested either in a story ambiented in a new fantasy scenario (or in a realist scenario, for that matter), if the writer didn't have a story to tell. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### Message-ID: <379C57BC.27E21809@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) References: <3799e103.489698350@news.earthlink.net> <19990724233009.09934.00001602@ng-cj1.aol.com> <379b3765.4390986@news.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.72 X-Trace: typ32b.nn.bcandid.com 932992797 206.161.15.72 (Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:39:57 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:39:57 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:42:36 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!hub1.ispnews.com!typ32b.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Prembone wrote: ... > I wonder if there are cases in which a historical detail depends upon > only one text. Oh yes! In fact, if you examine things in sufficient detail, it's quite common, particularly in older texts like Heroditus', for a given detail to come from only one text. That's particularly true if you count things that were meant to be exact copies (even though they seldom were exact, before the age of printing) as being the same text. ###### From: fangorn@c64.org (Fangorn) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Reply-To: fangorn@c64.org Message-ID: <3798aa26.6006671@news.tpnet.pl> References: <37973fa1.317285986@news.earthlink.net> <19990722155408.06207.00000084@ng-fu1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 32 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:16:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.160.32.119 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tpsa.pl X-Trace: news.tpnet.pl 932984184 212.160.32.119 (Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:16:24 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:16:24 MET DST Organization: TPNET - http://www.tpnet.pl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.man.poznan.pl!news.task.gda.pl!orion.cst.tpsa.pl!news.tpnet.pl!not-for-mail On 22 Jul 1999 19:54:08 GMT, ephebe22@aol.com (ryan k) wrote: >It would be a thankless task. A new novel set in Middle-Earth would appeal to >a very specific, very demanding audience. Creating a narrative that is >factually consistent with the world that Tolkien created would be the least of >your troubles. I guess it comes down to what sort of gifts this hypothetical >gifted author would possess. My favorite author among contemporary writers is >Don Delillo. I think he writes outstanding prose, but I cringe to think what >Middle Earth might look like through the eyes of the author of White Noise =). >On the other hand, I'm not sure I would want to read an author whose primary >gift is mimacry. I like what Peter Carrey did with Jack Maggs. The book is >strongly reminiscent of Dickens, but it never crosses the line into parody. >Maggs is leaner and more detatched than a Dickens novel, more modern (big >surprise). The only fantasy author I've read besides Tolkien is Stephen >Lawhead, and that was years ago. Are there contemporary fantasy authors whom >Tolkien fans deem up to the task of writing a sequel (or prequel) to LotR? I conclude you haven't heard (nor read of course) about the "Isildur" published somewhere on the net. I used to have it, and now I guess I'm gonna have to look for it again. The title speaks for itself, it's all happening in the 2nd era. Frankly I didn't read this, because I lost it before I managed to find some time, so don't ask me about the quality, just go search the web and download it. I'm quite surprised you haven't heard about it... Best regards, Fangorn +----------------------+ |aNAR.KALUVA.TIELYANNa.| +----------------------+ fangorn@c64.org ###### From: ephebe22@aol.com (ryan k) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 26 Jul 1999 15:47:58 GMT References: <3798aa26.6006671@news.tpnet.pl> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990726114758.09937.00002213@ng-cj1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nntp.psi.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Fangorn: >I'm quite surprised you haven't heard about >it... One of the assumptions with which this discussion began was that what "fanfic" there is isn't up to snuff. I haven't read "Islidur," but it's a safe bet that whoever started this topic has. As it will be some time before I can make time to find and read it (a quick Yahoo search turned up nothing), I'm willing to accept this assumption for the sake of this discussion. ###### From: Jereeza Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:32:43 +0200 Organization: freelancer :) Lines: 21 Message-ID: <379E87EB.62301360@frodo.net> References: <3799e103.489698350@news.earthlink.net> <19990724233009.09934.00001602@ng-cj1.aol.com> <6uhfms5zbq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <379FD64D.ABF59F48@ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: mia@dessin.beaux-arts.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ar1-p88-ri.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 933222379 12107 195.29.232.88 (29 Jul 1999 04:26:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 1999 04:26:19 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!205.219.255.8!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail grrrrrrrrrr Ben Kaufman wrote: > IMHO, there is one and only one story that disproves this theory, having: > (a) been completely true to ME and Tolkein, > (b) been an excellent detailed look at a portion of the WOTR not focused on by > Tolkein IEN! IEN! -- Jereeza the Tilde Happy Pearl of the Orient "At the moment it's just a Notion, but with a bit of backing I think I could turn it into a Concept, and then an Idea." - Woody Allen, 'Annie Hall' ps. remove dessin when replying ###### From: ddavis99@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:59:41 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <7nn9d8$2p9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <37973fa1.317285986@news.earthlink.net> <19990722155408.06207.00000084@ng-fu1.aol.com> <3798aa26.6006671@news.tpnet.pl> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.48.143.194 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jul 28 15:59:41 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x27.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.48.143.194 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDddavis99 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail What a fascinating discussion! Thank you to all so far! A few notes in haste - * A few years ago (pre-web) an author posted to Usenet (possibly to this forum!) about his experiences having written just such a novel set in JRRT's world. He was not able to get clearance to publish from the estate, and finally went through and made sufficient changes so that the novel was publishable as its own setting. * 'Scarlett' (sequel to Gone with the Wind) is an analogous case. The movie may make a difference * The Friends of Darkover novels are relevant in the present context * The copyright on LOTR won't expire for ... another 40 years or so. Same for The Hobbit (first published 1939, I think) * For a good example of a sequel drawing on a public domain work, see The Further Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. (Published 1980 or so). * Inferentially speaking, Folks have been 'writing' in the ME setting for years, only as narratives in the RPG game. Writing, but not publishing. Most D&D groups have at least one scribe. ;-) I agree with an earlier poster- the texts exist, for the most part they're just not released yet. * I'd like to see the Isildur text Dave Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: Ben Kaufman Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:19:26 -0700 Organization: Netcom Lines: 25 Message-ID: <379FD64D.ABF59F48@ix.netcom.com> References: <3799e103.489698350@news.earthlink.net> <19990724233009.09934.00001602@ng-cj1.aol.com> <6uhfms5zbq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: lai-ca3a-144.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 28 11:17:24 PM CDT 1999 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news Neil Franklin wrote: > > - credible pre-/mid-/postquels to the actual figures in LotR would > require JRRT himself > - attemps at rewriting any story are usually bad (just like cover > versions or remixes of famous pop songs) > - any other story playing in ME could be written, if not for authors > snobbery or copyrights (there actually exists a lot amateur writing > set in ME). > - not to forget all them RPGers, who are after all dice-guided groups > of authors writing in real-time (I suppose I should start writing up > the logs of the games I play in). > IMHO, there is one and only one story that disproves this theory, having: (a) been completely true to ME and Tolkein, (b) been an excellent detailed look at a portion of the WOTR not focused on by Tolkein (c) been written by an experienced and excellent pro fantasy writer, and (d) nothing to do with RPGs like ICE or its ilk. That story is, of course, Marrion Zimmer Bradley's "The Jewel of Arwen" (1973), and if anyone knows where to get a copy, please post. ###### From: gododdin@webtv.net (Christopher Dodd) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Playing In Another's World (was: New Reader Q: LOTR) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:19:17 -0500 (CDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 36 Message-ID: <12283-37AA7055-74@newsd-212.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <379FD64D.ABF59F48@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAkKimAZyTakPe+uJcLJEKCaiFD30CFDmg3t9S5OV/on4dQhTQmvbIJwP3 Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Ben Kaufman wrote: "IMHO, there is one and only one story that disproves this theory, having: (a) been completely true to ME and Tolkein, (b) been an excellent detailed look at a portion of the WOTR not focused on by Tolkein (c) been written by an experienced and excellent pro fantasy writer, and (d) nothing to do with RPGs like ICE or its ilk. That story is, of course, Marrion Zimmer Bradley's "The Jewel of Arwen" (1973), and if anyone knows where to get a copy, please post." Lin Carter, ed.: _The Year's Best Fantasy Stories_ (the first volume in the series), DAW Books, Inc.,1975. I quote from the Acknowledgements page: "_The Jewel of Arwen_, by Marion Zimmer Bradley, first appeared as a brochure published by T-K Graphics, Baltimore, Md. It is reprinted here by arrangement with the author." You asked. Now, you DIDN'T ask for this - but then you're getting it for free, so.... : Of the four criteria you listed, ONLY the last (d) applies in this case. In My Humble Opinion, of course. Salaam, Foss =========================================== Non merita nome di creatore, se non Iddio ed il Poeta. -Tasso ===========================================