Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Subject: Hobbit Origins X-Nntp-Posting-Host: harper.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:51:11 GMT Lines: 90 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews2!uchinews!not-for-mail First off, an apology: most of my comments here build on thoughts from _Morgoth's Ring_, and may therefore be difficult to follow for those who haven't read it. I'll try to give some background, but without quoting the entire essay some knowledge will inevitably be assumed. Second, a warning: everything that follows is pure speculation, inspired by "The 'Tale of Adanel'" found after the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth". We are told in the 'Tale of Adanel' that the "Fall of Man" (and the coming of Death into the world) in Middle-earth came when the first humans began to worship Melkor. He brought this about almost like a drug dealer, bringing gifts at first and then demanding greater and greater worship and service in exchange for them. Eventually, the wiser humans began to figure out that Melkor was _not_ God, and that they had been seduced by the darkness. When the crueler or more fearful heard them speak of this, however, they slew and hunted the speakers, either to please Melkor or to avoid his wrath. Spoke Adanel: "But it is told that there were a few that escaped us, and went away into far countries, fleeing from the shadow. Yet they did not escape the anger of [Iluvatar]; for they had built the House [the temple of Melkor--SJ] and bowed down in it. And they came at last to the land's end and the shores of the impassable water; and behold! the Enemy was there before them." Now, the context of this passage indicates that the speaker Adanel was of the people of Marach, who came to Beleriand after the people of Beor; presumably, those who are said here to have escaped the hunting included the people of Beor, who left while the Marachians remained in service to Melkor out of fear. (That is my take on "we hunted them" and "who escaped us", at any rate.) Perhaps guilt at their treatment of the Beorians played a part in the eventual Marachian rebellion and escape. The wording of this passage suggests that _all_ those who escaped went West to Beleriand. This is consistent with what we know from numerous other sources: that the rumor of the good of the Valar in the West had come to the humans' ears from the Avari, and that the humans fleeing Melkor naturally sought out the rumored home of his enemies. However, I have started to wonder if that implicit "all" is correct. It seems likely that at least some groups that escaped would simply flee, in any direction, and not put their hope in the tales of the Avari (after all, the Avari didn't go to the West, so they probably didn't have much desire to advertise it). This raises the possibility of populations of humans opposed to Morgoth throughout the world, although none so organized or so well-tutored as those who found the Eldar in Beleriand. More interestingly, I wonder if some of those who escaped despaired of the possibility of flight altogether (perhaps after travelling for some time and seeing evil always before them as well as behind), and opted to _hide_. Such groups would have needed to develop stealthy movements (like hobbits), would have sought out good hiding places for their homes (perhaps caves or holes in the ground, like hobbits), and would almost certainly have come to regard smallness as a virtue. Over the years, it seems entirely posible to me that such a population would evolve into the halflings that we know and love (as short people would be seen as more desirable mates). (For any creationists in the audience, you can breathe easy: this is only "microevolution", which you folks tend to accept.) Any thoughts on this idea? Going a bit farther, I wonder if this says anything about the hobbits' culture, their relationship to other human groups, or perhaps even their slightly greater longevity. While, as I mentioned out earlier, not _all_ of the humans fleeing Melkor can be assumed to have been of the kindreds that became the Edain, a substantial fraction of them must have been, as no members of other kindreds came West until considerably later (and those were clearly still under the Shadow to a substantial degree). Thus, it seems likely that my theory here would predict with reasonable likelihood that the hobbits were distantly related to the Edain. This _feels_ right to me, but I don't know if there is any evidence for or against the idea. Also, as the ancestors of the hobbits (in this view) would have been some of the earlier humans to reject Melkor, perhaps their longer lifespans were in some measure a reward for this. I'm a little shakier on this part of the idea, however, as I can't see people whose entire lifestyle centered around hiding being valiant fighters against the Enemy. On the other hand, perhaps Eru was pleased that their people were able to build happy and reasonably peaceful lives within the Darkness, and in despite of it. Well, there's the idea; I'm honestly not sure what made me think of it just now. Thoughts and commentary are welcome and appreciated. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbit Origins Date: 18 Jul 1999 16:32:56 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7mto78$2ti4@drn.newsguy.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-248.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Can't help you with the hobbits, although I feel they fled NORTH from Hildorien, but THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH reveals that the Edain were only the "vanguard" (as Tolkien puts it) of a large number of "tribes" or "clans" who began settling in the lands around Celduin and Carnen. Apparently, each generation, some of them would go off westward. Eventually, some made it all the way to Beleriand. But they left behind them many communities of related peoples. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbit Origins Date: 19 Jul 1999 01:27:17 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7munh5$1aio@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7mto78$2ti4@drn.newsguy.com> <19990718233751.07115.00002540@ng-fp1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-589.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On 19 Jul 1999 03:37:51 GMT, in article <19990718233751.07115.00002540@ng-fp1.aol.com>, gordonlew@aol.com resolved to say for all to read and review: > >I'm sorry but I don't even remember which HOME book its in but I remember a >passage that I feel is about the Origin of Hobbits. An Elf comes to a field >with the bodies of the Edain before their awakinings. Some are large and some >are small, I always felt that the small ones are the Hobbits. Does anyone know >where this passage can be found? This sounds like "Gilfanon's Tale" in THE BOOK OF LOST TALES, which is WAYYYYYYYY pre-HOBBIT. But I don't see anything about men of smaller stature than others. They were all, according to Nuin (the Elf who found them) of the stature of the "greatest of the Elves". The men are called or compared to children in a few places, however. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: gordonlew@aol.com (GordonLew) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbit Origins Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 Jul 1999 03:37:51 GMT References: <7mto78$2ti4@drn.newsguy.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990718233751.07115.00002540@ng-fp1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I'm sorry but I don't even remember which HOME book its in but I remember a passage that I feel is about the Origin of Hobbits. An Elf comes to a field with the bodies of the Edain before their awakinings. Some are large and some are small, I always felt that the small ones are the Hobbits. Does anyone know where this passage can be found? Feanole ###### From: Home and habitat of goblin and ork lords Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbit Origins Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:43:07 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 53 Message-ID: <7mudta$j7j$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.193.44.4 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jul 19 05:43:07 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.04 [en]C-SBIS-NC404 (Win95; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x23.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.193.44.4 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDannerchion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > Thoughts and commentary are welcome and appreciated. Ok; been awhile since I posted but here's some thoughts: 1) Hobbits are closer akin to the people of Haleth in ability and character. Since hobbits are stated as normal men (just reduced in size) (source quote: POME pg. 10 "Hobbits on the other hand were in nearly all respects normal men, but of very short stature.") It is curious that the people of Haleth were the fewest in number. The split would have had to occur before entering Beleriand of course; perhaps they were the 'runts' or those who were deemed too small to contribute to society. Perhaps they were from all the tribes; perhaps again they banded together for mutual survival. The origins of hobbits are shrouded in mystery; as they should be considering they are modeled on folktales of europe and given names out of todays dimly remembered past eg elves, fairies, gnomes etc. 2) Hobbits have interacted with men for some time. The rohirrim remember them from the anduin vales, and the numenoreans remember them from explorations. Stated as adaptations of early eothraim word forms and numenorean legends. Secondary side note: Hobbits are stated as appearing in eriador in the early first millennium. According to one note this is incorrect and my help to explain the en masse exodus to eriador later. Personally; I cannot see a people leaving for an unexplored country that may be more hostile than the one being left without having at least first sent some type of scouting party. As reference note to this: POME pg. 327 footnote "When they entered eriador (early in the second century of the third age) Men were still numerous there..." added note: christopher's commentary on this {The opening sentence of this note, placing the entry of the hobbits into eriador 'early in the second century of the third age' is plainly a casual error: """"presumably"""" my father intended millennium for century" I highlight the presumably part as this is exactly what christopher has done... presumed. By entering the area earlier on a scouting basis they would have an idea of the locale and lifestyle (remembered from the past)and hope for some protection against the forces of darkness they were later escaping. This would also place the remembered lore of halflings further back into the numenorean exiles memory. In addition this would also be an acceptable situation since they would not subsequently know of the rise of the witch king and his influence there, along with his persecution of the edain people. Just some logic for the side note. vagabond -- All I ask for is a tall ship, and a rock to wreck it upon. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbit Origins Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:15:01 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Jul 19 04:25:05 1999 References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 45 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-003mnminnp245.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 19 Jul 1999 11:17:51 GMT Message-ID: <3793065b.40437799@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!remarQ.com!supernews.com!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:51:11 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: [snipping throughout] >More interestingly, I wonder if some of those who escaped despaired of >the possibility of flight altogether (perhaps after travelling for >some time and seeing evil always before them as well as behind), and >opted to _hide_. The way I envisioned it, with the introduction of Melkor's discord came the oppression of the smaller and weaker by the stronger and larger, and so the smaller people groups, who eventually evolved into the "modern" Hobbit races, fled and adopted a lifestyle of stealth and concealment, settling in various places that offered such concealment. >Going a bit farther, I wonder if this says anything about the hobbits' >culture, their relationship to other human groups, or perhaps even >their slightly greater longevity. Undoubtedly their provincialism stemmed from the experience of vulnerability of being small in a world full of larger people. >Also, as the ancestors of the hobbits (in this view) would have been >some of the earlier humans to reject Melkor, perhaps their longer >lifespans were in some measure a reward for this. IIRC, there is some empirical support for the connection between a smaller build and a longer life expectancy, within the bounds of possible human lifespans. Also, in some cases of real-life small stature (hormonally related/proportional, IIRC), the rate of development is slowed, resulting in delayed puberty; whether that translates into a tendency toward longer life, I don't know. To some extent, too, I would consider that the longevity of Hobbits might be an evolutionary adaptation (or, if one prefers, a "balancing factor" designed by the "creator"), compensating for their increased vulnerability by virtue of size by giving them a reproductive advantage with regard to lifespan. "Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you're alive, it isn't." -- Richard Bach The Secular Paganist http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan (new URL)