Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Subject: Arwen's pastimes X-Nntp-Posting-Host: harper.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:09:54 GMT Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!europa.netcrusader.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail There has been considerable concern recently about Arwen's character in the upcoming movie, due to hints that she might have a more active role than was indicated in the books. [End of movie references] That got me to thinking: if we're all so sure that Arwen wasn't off adventuring while the Ring went south, what _was_ she doing? I can't imagine that she spent the _whole_ time after the departure of the Fellowship weaving Aragorn's standard. However, considering the increased danger involved in travel as the War became more intense, I suspect that she didn't spend her time touring her hopeful future realm of Arnor. So, the question is, what did Arwen do with her time? Was she able to be "active in the world" in some way, either by journeying like her brothers or by accumulating wisdom like her father? With a grandmother like Galadriel, I just can't see her as the truly passive type. Any thoughts? Steuard Jensen ###### From: DONEY4@webtv.net (Daniel Ketchum) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 3 Message-ID: <4260-37904244-2@newsd-172.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAlBq3azt+fb4RVbao66RgF4a28aQCFQCxqPaiYvLvUaRVyf3kgNc6M2eeSQ== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail The most likely explanation is that Aragorn had a simply enormous standard. ###### From: DONEY4@webtv.net (Daniel Ketchum) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 2 Message-ID: <6389-37908539-3@newsd-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <4260-37904244-2@newsd-172.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRAWyLcDexeIemzgDCf6lqfIeeeYwIUGjM7/7LwQFB19dlsxnz6Rky2Fbw= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Sorry, it seemed funny when I was half asleep. ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: 17 Jul 1999 11:16:45 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 55 Message-ID: <7mqhad$1dkp@drn.newsguy.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-532.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:09:54 GMT, in article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu resolved to say for all to read and review: > >That got me to thinking: if we're all so sure that Arwen wasn't off >adventuring while the Ring went south, what _was_ she doing? I can't >imagine that she spent the _whole_ time after the departure of the >Fellowship weaving Aragorn's standard. However, considering the >increased danger involved in travel as the War became more intense, I >suspect that she didn't spend her time touring her hopeful future >realm of Arnor. > >So, the question is, what did Arwen do with her time? Was she able to >be "active in the world" in some way, either by journeying like her >brothers or by accumulating wisdom like her father? With a >grandmother like Galadriel, I just can't see her as the truly passive >type. As the chief Elfwoman of Elrond's household (and, presumably, of all Imladris) she probably was in charge of the Yavannildi (the maidens of Yavanna), who raised the special corn the Elves used to make Lembas. As an Elf woman she would have probably have overseen whatever fields and gardens (or orchards) Elrond's people tended, though most of the cooking was performed by the Elf-men (according to "Laws and Customs among the Eldar"). Arwen was also apparently a gifted singer (as Frodo heard her singing the hymn to Varda when he and Bilbo left the Hall of Fire). Among the Eldar, the women seem to have devoted the most study and practice to performing music, so she may have passed a lot of her time playing a harp or something. She also sewed, as we well know, since she made the standard for Aragorn. She would have spun, woven, and sewn the entire standard (perhaps with aid from other Elf-women), and undoubtedly spent part of her time doing that sort of thing just to make more mundane clothing and stuff. The Elf-women were also the primary keepers of the lore of families, their histories and genealogies. Although it's unlikely Arwen spent much time working on her lore of genealogies, she may have been consulted occasionally. These are, however, just examples of the PRIMARY interests of Elf-women among the Eldar. Tolkien said that members of either sex might engage themselves in other pursuits, sometimes in matters which normally were of greater interest to the other sex. Hence, it's entirely reasonable to suggest that Arwen might have spent time wandering in the woods, practicing forestry, or carving stone and wood, or doing jewel-work (in fact, there were jewels in Aragorn's standard, so she may have shaped them herself), and so forth. But I doubt she went out hunting trolls and orcs with her brothers. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: gordonlew@aol.com (GordonLew) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 17 Jul 1999 19:28:40 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990717152840.27691.00001202@ng34.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wli.net!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail > >So, the question is, what did Arwen do with her time? Was she able to >be "active in the world" in some way, either by journeying like her >brothers or by accumulating wisdom like her father? It seems odd to modern people but she probably did what Medievel women did. Stayed home, ran the household and weaving, Aragorn's standard and other things. Yes its not much of life but that's the way it was. Feanole ###### From: "Deborah Pate" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:34:56 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Message-ID: <7mqpjn$843$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <19990717152840.27691.00001202@ng34.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-249.name39.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 932243895 8323 62.136.179.249 (17 Jul 1999 20:38:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jul 1999 20:38:15 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Gordon Lew: > It seems odd to modern people but she probably did what Medievel women did. > Stayed home, ran the household and weaving, Aragorn's standard and other > things. Yes its not much of life but that's the way it was. Actually it wasn't - just think of Eleanor of Aquitaine, for example. Under the feudal system it was your family's rank, wealth and power that mattered, and women could benefit from this nearly as much as men. Sure, wives were meant to obey their husbands - but even if you believe all wives did as they were told (!), widows had no such restraints. There was also a promising career in the church open to women, and abbesses could wield great power. That of course applies mostly to the rich. But even lower down the social scale, it's arguable that the middle ages were better for women than later periods, in some ways. For example, the 'running the household' bit meant a lot more before the industrial revolution, when nearly everything *was* done in households. Nothing could be further from the Victorian idea of women doing nothing but a spot of embroidery. Deborah Pate ###### From: Mike Kew Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:12:09 +0100 Organization: Don't be so daft Message-ID: References: <19990717152840.27691.00001202@ng34.aol.com> <7mqpjn$843$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: kew1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: kew1.demon.co.uk:212.228.11.69 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 932251709 nnrp-13:3364 NO-IDENT kew1.demon.co.uk:212.228.11.69 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!kew1.demon.co.uk!Brandybuck On Sat, 17 Jul 1999, Deborah Pate wrote >That of course applies mostly to the rich. But >even lower down the social scale, it's arguable >that the middle ages were better for women than >later periods, in some ways. For example, the >'running the household' bit meant a lot more >before the industrial revolution, when nearly >everything *was* done in households. Nothing >could be further from the Victorian idea of >women doing nothing but a spot of embroidery. In fact, that is a very Victorian idea. Only in the Victorian middle classes did the modern notions of 'ladylike' occupations emerge - in the working classes, women did much the same jobs as men, though for less money. As the century wore on, men's incomes rose and it became a status symbol for a man to have a non-working wife. Trade unions also did their bit to drive women out of the workplace, as part of their bid to increase men's incomes. The point is that right up to around the 1880s, except in the upper and upper-middle classes, women did much the same sorts of work as men. -- Mike Kew ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 08:17:48 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7msgvj$spn$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <19990717152840.27691.00001202@ng34.aol.com><7mqpjn$843$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <7ms0pe$5vc$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.13 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 932300595 29495 12.79.24.13 (18 Jul 1999 12:23:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jul 1999 12:23:15 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Deborah Pate wrote in message news:7ms0pe$5vc$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk... > Absolutely. The one major exception seems > to have been martial - it wasn't normal at > any time, AFAIK, for women to fight in > person. There has been quite a bit of evidence to confirm the existence of significant numbers of female fighters amongst a Scythian related culture near the Caucasas Mountains. I'd have to look up the details, but my recollection is that a number of graves have been uncovered of women killed by weapons of war and buried with weapons and armor. The overall picture seems to be that it was uncommon even in that culture, but more or less a standard part of society. There are also the female bodyguards of some african ruler or other and the (likely exaggerated or wholly invented) spear wielding women who were the inspiration for the name 'Amazon' being given to the South American river / region. ###### From: "Deborah Pate" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 08:30:41 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7ms0pe$5vc$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <19990717152840.27691.00001202@ng34.aol.com><7mqpjn$843$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-115.name10.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 932284014 6124 62.136.164.243 (18 Jul 1999 07:46:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jul 1999 07:46:54 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Mike Kew: > The point is that right up to around the 1880s, except > in the upper and upper-middle classes, women did much > the same sorts of work as men. Absolutely. The one major exception seems to have been martial - it wasn't normal at any time, AFAIK, for women to fight in person. This tends to look like a major restriction in Sword 'n' Sorcery novels, but I doubt it seemed like one in real life. :) Of course there were always exceptions, and a number of female pirates are known, for example. Moreover in the middle ages, before violence had become a centralized state function, women from powerful families could and did command large armies. Deborah Pate ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: 18 Jul 1999 10:16:33 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 36 Message-ID: <7mt25h$1qku@drn.newsguy.com> References: <19990717152840.27691.00001202@ng34.aol.com><7mqpjn$843$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <7ms0pe$5vc$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-825.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 08:30:41 +0100, in article <7ms0pe$5vc$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Deborah resolved to say for all to read and review: > >Mike Kew: >> The point is that right up to around the 1880s, except >> in the upper and upper-middle classes, women did much >> the same sorts of work as men. > >Absolutely. The one major exception seems >to have been martial - it wasn't normal at >any time, AFAIK, for women to fight in >person... The ancient Sauromatae and Sarmatians allowed unmarried women to fight in their wars. There are incidents in Celto-Germanic history where women displayed fighting prowess, implying a knowledge of arms which is not attested (yet) in any historical texts or by archaeology. >...This tends to look like a major >restriction in Sword 'n' Sorcery novels, >but I doubt it seemed like one in real >life. :) [snip] Curiously, Tolkien did envision women warriors in the Rohirric society, but he reduced their role for (apparently) dramatic reasons. Also, his traditions concerning the Folk of Haleth in the First Age included "amazon" warriors. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: "dream wanderer" Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien X-Client-NNTP-Posting-Host: ha11s166.d.shentel.net/204.111.50.166 References: <19990717152840.27691.00001202@ng34.aol.com><7mqpjn$843$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <7ms0pe$5vc$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <7msgvj$spn$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> X-TWRN-Tag: 932303105785 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4ikk3.598$J5.9113@c01read02-admin.service.talkway.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:05:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.200.3.205 X-Trace: c01read02-admin.service.talkway.com 932303104 216.200.3.205 (Sun, 18 Jul 1999 06:05:04 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 06:05:04 PDT Organization: Talkway, Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.ispnews.com!news-master.service.talkway.com!c01read02-admin.service.talkway.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Oh to have been a Cherokee woman before the white man came. They didn't practise such silly things as wifely submission and deference to men and the civilization did not fall apart (and they had towns and representative governmently long before the Europeans came here) Oddly enough white men who came in contact with these cofidents self-assured women liked them and married them...:) These women owned the property( a shock to their white husbands when they thought they could do what they wanted with her land..hehe..and they couldn't) and and the kids were members of her clan. They sat on the war counsel...(sigh) those were the days:) Concerning women warriors, here in America we have a history of women dressing up like men and going off to war...I know of instances in the War of Independence and the Civil war...probably after that they had 'complete physicals' so it was harder for a women to 'sneak' through...but they actually took part in combat and one was discovered only after she was wounded... Sharon -- Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm). ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 15:26:32 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Sun Jul 18 08:35:08 1999 References: <19990717152840.27691.00001202@ng34.aol.com><7mqpjn$843$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <7ms0pe$5vc$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <7msgvj$spn$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <4ikk3.598$J5.9113@c01read02-admin.service.talkway.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-001mnminnp118.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 18 Jul 1999 15:29:23 GMT Message-ID: <3791f091.131954370@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:05:04 GMT, "dream wanderer" wrote: >Oh to have been a Cherokee woman before the white man came. They didn't >practise such silly things as wifely submission and deference to men Ah...that's why the white man conquered them: it was Gawd's Judgment on them for violating Gawd's Order of Creeashun. ;-) >and the civilization did not fall apart Will wonders never cease? >Concerning women warriors, here in America we have a history of women >dressing up like men and going off to war...I know of instances in the >War of Independence and the Civil war...probably after that they had >'complete physicals' so it was harder for a women to 'sneak' >through... Hmmm. I wonder if that's how the custom of stripping down the army recruit for a visual examination came about. ;-) And of course they also do have physical exams by a physician, but that's more obviously a matter of health screening. I've also heard -- probably apocryphal -- that ever since the "Pope Joan" incident they now do a little "check" on the elected candidate to verify that he has "the right stuff." I can't remember what the Latin phrase is, but it's some euphemistic way of expressing that the "proper" equipment is in place. After all, how can one rule without a scepter? "I've better things to do with my eternity than further your prurient interests." -- Frodo's Ghost ~~~Tilde Power!~~~ The Prembone Pages http://www.geocities.com/~prembone/ ###### From: frank@marbot.gu.se (e l w e n) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 15:31:59 +0200 Organization: hardly ever... Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <7ms0pe$5vc$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <7msgvj$spn$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <4ikk3.598$J5.9113@c01read02-admin.service.talkway.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: avallone.hemmet.s-hem.chalmers.se X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!dd.chalmers.se!frank "dream wanderer" wrote: > Oh to have been a Cherokee woman before the white man came. They didn't > practise such silly things as wifely submission and deference to men > and the civilization did not fall apart (and they had towns and > representative governmently long before the Europeans came here) Oddly > enough white men who came in contact with these cofidents self-assured > women liked them and married them...:) These women owned the property( > a shock to their white husbands when they thought they could do what > they wanted with her land..hehe..and they couldn't) and and the kids > were members of her clan. They sat on the war counsel...(sigh) those > were the days:) Well Sharon, you don't need to go that far back. In many, many places in and around Central and South America's indian communities the woman is still the one who does most of the job. They work the land, they hold councel and make most of the choices for their community. > Concerning women warriors, here in America we have a history of women > dressing up like men and going off to war...I know of instances in the > War of Independence and the Civil war...probably after that they had > 'complete physicals' so it was harder for a women to 'sneak' > through...but they actually took part in combat and one was discovered > only after she was wounded... Also in America, around the times of the Mexican Civil War women were fully involved in the war. They were called 'carrilleras' because they would join men in battle carrying around their bodies ammo for the guns and rifles. There were, in fact, some women that made it to General rank and we're talking 1910 here. -- e l w e n "All that is not given is lost..." - Hasar Pal ###### From: RLV Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:18:51 +0200 Organization: RLV Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <37920C7B.23F0@xxxx.xxx> References: <19990717152840.27691.00001202@ng34.aol.com><7mqpjn$843$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <7ms0pe$5vc$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <7msgvj$spn$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <4ikk3.598$J5.9113@c01read02-admin.service.talkway.com> <3791f091.131954370@news.earthlink.net> Reply-To: xxxx@xxxx.xxx NNTP-Posting-Host: tn174-118.tinn.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.amsterdam.nl.net!sun4nl!uunet!ams.uu.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newsfeed.mad.ttd.net!newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!not-for-mail Prembone wrote: > > On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:05:04 GMT, "dream wanderer" > wrote: > I've also heard -- probably apocryphal -- that ever since the "Pope > Joan" incident they now do a little "check" on the elected candidate > to verify that he has "the right stuff." I can't remember what the > Latin phrase is, but it's some euphemistic way of expressing that the > "proper" equipment is in place. > > After all, how can one rule without a scepter? With a tilde? ;-) R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Call me mead-tongue" ###### From: Jereeza Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 00:17:05 -0700 Organization: FFR Lines: 6 Message-ID: <37942271.7C15@dessin.beaux-arts.com> References: <4260-37904244-2@newsd-172.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ar1-p43-ri.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 932422389 8760 195.29.232.43 (19 Jul 1999 22:13:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jul 1999 22:13:09 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!205.219.255.8!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Daniel Ketchum wrote: > > The most likely explanation is that Aragorn had a simply enormous > standard. LOL! ###### From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: 26 Jul 1999 04:03:49 GMT Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ (USA) Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7ngmn5$md1$1@news.asu.edu> References: <7msgvj$spn$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <19990717152840.27691.00001202@ng34.aol.com>< Reply-To: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec2.asu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!pitt.edu!gatech!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!aztec.asu.edu!chuckb In a previous article, conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net ("Conrad Dunkerson") says: >There has been quite a bit of evidence to confirm the >existence of significant numbers of female fighters amongst >a Scythian related culture near the Caucasas Mountains. >I'd have to look up the details, but my recollection is >that a number of graves have been uncovered of women killed >by weapons of war and buried with weapons and armor. The Conrad, I won't say you're wrong, but my recollection is that only 2 graves of suspected Scythians have been opened. One was a female of high rank (7 horses in the next pit) and unknown function. She was buried in an 8 foot coffin, and was wearing a 3 foot horsehair headdress of some sort. She was almost completely mummified. The other was a male found within a hundred miles of her. Local outrage at the excavations has forbidden any further such excavations for the forseeable future. The two I'm referring to were on a National Geographic TV feature called "The Ice Mummies". -- ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen's pastimes Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 23:03:16 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7ntpda$5ul$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <7msgvj$spn$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <19990717152840.27691.00001202@ng34.aol.com>< <7ngmn5$md1$1@news.asu.edu> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.22.236 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 933390570 6101 12.72.22.236 (31 Jul 1999 03:09:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jul 1999 03:09:30 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.191.82.231!rockie.attcanada.net!attcanada!204.127.161.4!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail CHUCK BRAMLET wrote in message news:7ngmn5$md1$1@news.asu.edu... > Conrad, I won't say you're wrong, but my recollection is > that only 2 graves of suspected Scythians have been > opened. Unfortunately I am away from home for a week attending a conference and only have a few of my JRRT books with me (how is that for addiction?) and none of my other sources. However, I was not in fact referring to Scythians per se but to a culture related to them. It was a small group in a very localized geographic region, but they have unearthed several graves that give strong indication of having been fighting women. If anyone is truly interested send me email and I will look it up on my return. You could post here, but my usenet reader automatically clears old posts after a few days so I might miss it.