From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Frodo Woke First
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:08:11 GMT
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Looking up the scene on the Field of Cormallen (the reason why will
later appear under the Sign of the Tilde) I ran across a scribbled
note in the margin of my paperback edition which I think makes a
rather interesting observation:

Despite the fact that Frodo was the Ring-bearer, and presumably in the
worst shape, had endured the worst of the Quest, etc., in Ithilien
Frodo awoke before Sam did, which suggests that Sam was in pretty bad
shape himself -- and Frodo's manner in this scene also suggests that
Frodo's later troubles were not due to being "destroyed on Mount Doom"
but to a later spiral of depression re: lingering scars and changes
from his Quest.

But:  let's look at that Sam thing.


"For if that which you seek, you find not within yourself,
 you will never find it without." -- Charge of the Star Goddess

The Secular Paganist  http://www.geocities.com/~secularpagan/

######

From: herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com (Angela Gunn)
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Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:08:11 GMT, prembone@excitebitespam.com
(Prembone) wrote:

>Looking up the scene on the Field of Cormallen (the reason why will
>later appear under the Sign of the Tilde) I ran across a scribbled
>note in the margin of my paperback edition which I think makes a
>rather interesting observation:
>
>Despite the fact that Frodo was the Ring-bearer, and presumably in the
>worst shape, had endured the worst of the Quest, etc., in Ithilien
>Frodo awoke before Sam did, which suggests that Sam was in pretty bad
>shape himself -- and Frodo's manner in this scene also suggests that
>Frodo's later troubles were not due to being "destroyed on Mount Doom"
>but to a later spiral of depression re: lingering scars and changes
>from his Quest.

Or that there was less mortal stuff left in Frodo that needed sleep,
that mortal balm? (Aie! What have I done! I can't start this thread...
must work... Prembone will think this is troll bait and starting
shooting flaming tildes at me or something... <g>)

>But:  let's look at that Sam thing.

Oh yeah. Sam was wrecked -- not least because, having endured the
physical horror of the journey and (to some extent) the malignant
influence of the nearby Ring, he had the psychological misery of
seeing what was happening to his beloved master, not to mention of
shifting from follower to leader in a matter of hours (since Frodo was
pretty much incapable of leadership post-Cirith Ungol). Of course, it
gets better for Sam when he wakes up, thinking as he did that live
master=master that will be okay. 

Frodo, meanwhile, wakes up relieved to have gotten rid of the Damned
Thing, certainly a happy-happy-joy-joy moment for any right-thinking
Ringbearer -- only to realize over time that he's still living with
the memory and the toll it took on his soul. It ended for Sam. It
didn't end for Frodo. (You know, it's the only wish of Sam's he didn't
see come true ["But I hope he's all right otherwise. He's had a cruel
time."] -- hmm. Proof that Sam *did* sail West I suppose, the gods
being loath to blow their no-hitter on the last pitch.)

Hey, here's a thought: Sam slept longer than Frodo. Sam healed better
than Frodo. Ergo, if someone had slipped Mr. Baggins a Mickey when
first his eyelids fluttered, he would have had that extra couple of
hours and... hey it could work; heaven knows I'm a cross old thing
when I've missed an hour or two of shut-eye.

Not procrastinating on work, I swear --
AG
(kidding herself).

######

From: herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com (Angela Gunn)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:44:46 -0700, Mia Kalogjera <mia@beaux-arts.com>
wrote:

at that Sam thing.
>
>I'll use the previous argument here too: perhaps most of what Frodo went through had 
>to do with the Ring, and he felt It more than he did his 'material' surroundings. When 
>he said that the wheel of fire was all he saw and everything else faded, it might have 
>also meant that his body felt only the burden of the Ring getting heavier and heavier, 
>and the usual causes of exhaustion (lack of food, water and real sleep, endless 
>walking, etc.) were secondary. Sam, on the other hand, wasn't in the supernatural 
>world of the Ring and what he suffered had a different effect: his, again, 'earthly' 
>wounds left more marks on his body than his mind and although it took him a 
>little longer to recover physically, he would eventually heal. Frodo's initial quick 
>recovery, however, later gave way to deeper wounds, both in mind and body.

That was my reading as well... Actually, that brings up a question for
me (which may have been discussed at length before, I don't know).
Frodo describes how the Ring has stripped him of sense-memory
(taste-feel-sound-memory-image). How much of that do you suppose he
got back? Did everything come flooding back to him? Did he have to
re-learn the taste of food, the feel of water, the sound of wind, and
so forth? Or was his damage such that he couldn't regain them again,
at least not as he had them before?

Curious --
AG.

######

From: Mia Kalogjera <mia@beaux-arts.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:44:46 -0700
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Prembone wrote:

> Despite the fact that Frodo was the Ring-bearer, and presumably in the
> worst shape, had endured the worst of the Quest, etc., in Ithilien
> Frodo awoke before Sam did, which suggests that Sam was in pretty bad
> shape himself -- and Frodo's manner in this scene also suggests that
> Frodo's later troubles were not due to being "destroyed on Mount Doom"
> but to a later spiral of depression re: lingering scars and changes
> from his Quest.

Always wondered about that bit myself. One thing that puzzled me even more was that 
Pippin awoke the same day they did, although the circumstances he was in weren't near 
as body-and-mind wrecking as theirs.
But back to Frodo: it might have been because he was released of his burden, and the 
joy of that discovery outweighed the memory of torments that had happened to him, 
while Sam still felt the wounds that had a more 'earthly' origin. Just one of many 
explanations.

> But:  let's look at that Sam thing.

I'll use the previous argument here too: perhaps most of what Frodo went through had 
to do with the Ring, and he felt It more than he did his 'material' surroundings. When 
he said that the wheel of fire was all he saw and everything else faded, it might have 
also meant that his body felt only the burden of the Ring getting heavier and heavier, 
and the usual causes of exhaustion (lack of food, water and real sleep, endless 
walking, etc.) were secondary. Sam, on the other hand, wasn't in the supernatural 
world of the Ring and what he suffered had a different effect: his, again, 'earthly' 
wounds left more marks on his body than his mind and although it took him a 
little longer to recover physically, he would eventually heal. Frodo's initial quick 
recovery, however, later gave way to deeper wounds, both in mind and body.

I know this thought is a very rough, sketchy one, but if a thread starts I will work 
on defending it! :)


--
Jereeza the Tilde-Happy Pearl of the Orient
"I have seen a young sphynx in the desert..." - J.L.Borges

ps. remove dessin when replying

######

From: ijb@dl.ac.uk ()
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: 14 Jul 1999 10:36:26 GMT
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In article <378CBE7E.5530@dessin.beaux-arts.com>,
	Mia Kalogjera <mia@beaux-arts.com> writes:
> Prembone wrote:
> 
> > Despite the fact that Frodo was the Ring-bearer, and presumably in the
> > worst shape, had endured the worst of the Quest, etc., in Ithilien
> > Frodo awoke before Sam did, which suggests that Sam was in pretty bad
> > shape himself -- and Frodo's manner in this scene also suggests that
> > Frodo's later troubles were not due to being "destroyed on Mount Doom"
> > but to a later spiral of depression re: lingering scars and changes
> > from his Quest.
> 
> Always wondered about that bit myself. One thing that puzzled me even more was that 
> Pippin awoke the same day they did, although the circumstances he was in weren't near 
> as body-and-mind wrecking as theirs.

Are you qite sure about the awoke there ? I don't have the books to hand,
but as I remember it Pippin is described by Gimli as having risen the previous
day. As I understand that it could quite easily mean that he had been bed
ridden for some time ( not suprising really after some bloody great troll
had fallen on top of him ! ) i.e. he had been conscious for some time before
that,

Ian

######

From: Jereeza <mia@dessin.beaux-arts.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:28:39 +0200
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Flame of the West wrote:

<snip>

> It really debases the wonder of Middle-Earth to think of Frodo as
> a modern garden-variety neurotic rather than a mythic hero.

True - Prem's PTSD theory is convincing and a great new way of looking at
things that actually adds a lot to Frodo's character, but I agree with this
100%. He was hurt by magic, got stuck between the 'ordinary' world and the
magic one, and the supernatural side of the post-Quest Frodo is a very
strong one.
--
Jereeza the Tilde Happy Pearl of the Orient
<website currently under redesign/ updating>

"Tilde end of time!"

ps. remove dessin when replying

######

From: tjcgg4@usaor.net (Muse)
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Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) wrote:

>Looking up the scene on the Field of Cormallen (the reason why will
>later appear under the Sign of the Tilde) I ran across a scribbled
>note in the margin of my paperback edition which I think makes a
>rather interesting observation:

>Despite the fact that Frodo was the Ring-bearer, and presumably in the
>worst shape, had endured the worst of the Quest, etc., in Ithilien
>Frodo awoke before Sam did, which suggests that Sam was in pretty bad
>shape himself -- and Frodo's manner in this scene also suggests that
>Frodo's later troubles were not due to being "destroyed on Mount Doom"
>but to a later spiral of depression re: lingering scars and changes
>from his Quest.

	What difference could it possibly make?  Maybe Sam sleeps in more,
maybe Frodo was woken by a bird chirping.  I mean, what relevance
could there possibly be in such a thing?  

######

From: apintrix@aol.com (Apintrix)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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I always thought it was because Sam kept giving Frodo all the food and water...
plus carrying him on his back and such.
You'll remember that when Sam picks up Frodo, he weighs very little: the weight
of the ring is psychological.  Thus the physical effects, which sleep can cure,
were more devastating for Sam, so he sleeps longer.  However the psychological
and, even more, the psychosomatic effects were stronger in Frodo, and so he
doesn't need to sleep more just then but suffers more later.

Or it could just be coincidence, I suppose.

######

From: jereeza@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:20:03 GMT
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In article <7mhp7a$be0$1@mserv2.dl.ac.uk>,
  ijb@dl.ac.uk () wrote:

> Are you qite sure about the awoke there ? I don't have the books to
hand,

I have them (I had to dig for RotK through a pile of drawings) and I
will check the passage for you: (Mia flipping through pages here... Sam
wakes up... the glad day ended... at length Gandalf rose... ah-ha, here
we are!)

/Gimli speaking/ "And it is only a day yet since you were first up and
abroad again."

(comparing the few pages to the timeline given in the appendices)

March 25th, Frodo and Sam get to Mt. Doom and put an end to Sauron once
and for all, Eagles come to rescue, Pippin sees them flying, ergo he
stabbed the troll more or less at the same time.
April 8th, the Ringbearers are honoured on the Field of Cormallen.
They woke up early that day, and Pippin the day before, according to
Gimli. The above quoted conversation takes place after the honouring,
which means that it took Pippin roughly the same time as it did to
Frodo and Sam to recover enough to be up and about, as they say. So the
troll fell over Pippin, but if you compare that one incident to the hell
the Ringbearers had to endure, it doesn't seem very 'proportional'.
Either Pippin is a bit of a wimp, or F and S were indeed tough little
cookies :)

(putting the book down) I think I did my share of hairsplitting! :)

Cheers,

Mia aka Jereeza the THPotO


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

######

From: jereeza@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:42:57 GMT
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In article <378c58bb.46609929@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
  herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com (Angela Gunn) wrote:

> Frodo describes how the Ring has stripped him of sense-memory
> (taste-feel-sound-memory-image). How much of that do you suppose he
> got back? Did everything come flooding back to him? Did he have to
> re-learn the taste of food, the feel of water, the sound of wind, and
> so forth? Or was his damage such that he couldn't regain them again,
> at least not as he had them before?

That's a good question, and I haven't come across it during my deja
browsing so far!
We see Sam enjoying the colours and fragrance of Ithilien, but nothing
is said of how Frodo feels it. He does later respond to the beauty of
the Queen-to-be Arwen, so it means some of those senses and recognition
came back to him. On the other hand, he shows no need for the hobbits'
drug that is the pipe-weed... the growing introvertion that takes over
him removes him from all that can be considered, well, 'material',
worldly or common as opposed to 'spiritual', and I wouldn't discard the
idea of learning/damage you mentioned, I think the process of
re-learning the non-Ring world was a painful one, especially since he
never really *fully* settled into it again. I think he lost much of that
simple world-appreciation such as enjoying the taste of fruit, etc. The
world must've lost a lot of its 'colour' to him after he'd been 'drained
out' by the Ring.
Speculating, but it doesn't stop me from writing this much :)

--
Jer


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

######

From: Jereeza <mia@dessin.beaux-arts.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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Angela Gunn wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:42:57 GMT, jereeza@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >Speculating, but it doesn't stop me from writing this much :)
>
> I'm glad you did -- I've been pondering the question on and off all
> day, returning time and again to the imagery in Frodo's dream in the
> hose of Bombadil. Remember the veil turning all to glass and silver?
> Obviously the direct reference was to the rain falling in his dream,
> but it makes a nice metaphor for the healing he might have found in
> the West -- regaining the ability to experience the world, rather than
> viewing it through the invisible barrier that seems to exist for him
> post-Mordor.
>
> Maybe?

I hope so! Though I doubt there was cure for him, even in the West <sigh>,
because as I see it the post-Quest Frodo is lost somewhere between the
'ordinary' world of ME and the 'magic' one of Valinor, and doesn't truly
belong anywhere anymore. I think I rambled about this in some earlier post,
that he *was* sacrificed, *was* lost - he didn't die (which would be an
obvious, 'visible' sacrifice), but he couldn't settle in either world, and
being 'sentenced' to never finding peace is a fate even worse than dying.

--
Jereeza the Tilde Happy Pearl of the Orient

"Nothing is built on stone; all is built on sand,
but we must build as if the sand were stone."

ps. remove dessin when replying

######

From: Jereeza <mia@dessin.beaux-arts.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:12:37 +0200
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Mark Wells wrote:

> It seems that what happened to Frodo is very similar to Elvish
> 'fading'.  In that case, going to Eressea may be the best way to deal
> with it, compared to the unbearable pain of remaining in a world that
> is physically beautiful but spiritually empty.

Could be, I'll have to think for a while about this first, then try to reply.

> OTOH, you suggest that he would *eventually* recover and learn to
> appreciate the 'material' again.  This sounds too much like expecting
> him to become un-wounded, like healing without scars.  It's not going
> to happen.

I did? Sorry, I didn't intend it to sound that way, because I don't think he
will truly appreciate those things again. Learn, yes, but not *feel*, like
when you know that E equals mc(2), but don't really *know* it. Sorry excuse
for a comparison, but the only I could think of right now :)

--
Jereeza the Tilde Happy Pearl of the Orient

"Nothing is built on stone; all is built on sand,
but we must build as if the sand were stone."

ps. remove dessin when replying

######

From: Prembone <prembone@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:26:58 GMT
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In article <7miutm$sjo$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  jereeza@my-deja.com wrote:
[snip]

> which means that it took Pippin roughly the same time as it did to
> Frodo and Sam to recover enough to be up and about, as they say. So
the
> troll fell over Pippin, but if you compare that one incident to the
hell
> the Ringbearers had to endure, it doesn't seem very 'proportional'.
> Either Pippin is a bit of a wimp, or F and S were indeed tough little
> cookies :)

Though F and S did indeed demonstrate remarkable endurance, we need to
consider that all three of them had been recovered from near-death,
which puts them on more or less the same level in terms of criticality.
 No, Pippin didn't endure the long, drawn-out draining that Sam and
Frodo did, but if you've been brought to the brink of death, it doesn't
really matter **how** you got there:  the net result is "critical
condition." ;-)

--
Prembone
**************************************************
The Prembone Pages: Humor, Opinion, Parody, Satire
http://www.geocities.com/~prembone/


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
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######

From: herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com (Angela Gunn)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:32:21 GMT
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On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:42:57 GMT, jereeza@my-deja.com wrote:

>In article <378c58bb.46609929@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
>  herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com (Angela Gunn) wrote:
>
>> Frodo describes how the Ring has stripped him of sense-memory
>> (taste-feel-sound-memory-image). How much of that do you suppose he
>> got back? Did everything come flooding back to him? Did he have to
>> re-learn the taste of food, the feel of water, the sound of wind, and
>> so forth? Or was his damage such that he couldn't regain them again,
>> at least not as he had them before?
>
>That's a good question, and I haven't come across it during my deja
>browsing so far!

And you are doubtless better with Deja than I... I keep ending up with
totally wrong-headed results from Unix groups and whatnot. How
embarassing! 

>We see Sam enjoying the colours and fragrance of Ithilien, but nothing
>is said of how Frodo feels it. He does later respond to the beauty of
>the Queen-to-be Arwen, so it means some of those senses and recognition
>came back to him. On the other hand, he shows no need for the hobbits'
>drug that is the pipe-weed... 

And they say the Patch is a brute-force method of quitting <g>.

>the growing introvertion that takes over
>him removes him from all that can be considered, well, 'material',
>worldly or common as opposed to 'spiritual', and I wouldn't discard the
>idea of learning/damage you mentioned, I think the process of
>re-learning the non-Ring world was a painful one, especially since he
>never really *fully* settled into it again. I think he lost much of that
>simple world-appreciation such as enjoying the taste of fruit, etc. The
>world must've lost a lot of its 'colour' to him after he'd been 'drained
>out' by the Ring.
>Speculating, but it doesn't stop me from writing this much :)

I'm glad you did -- I've been pondering the question on and off all
day, returning time and again to the imagery in Frodo's dream in the
hose of Bombadil. Remember the veil turning all to glass and silver?
Obviously the direct reference was to the rain falling in his dream,
but it makes a nice metaphor for the healing he might have found in
the West -- regaining the ability to experience the world, rather than
viewing it through the invisible barrier that seems to exist for him
post-Mordor.

Maybe?

AG.

######

From: herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com (Angela Gunn)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:34:10 GMT
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On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:20:03 GMT, jereeza@my-deja.com wrote:

>So the
>troll fell over Pippin, but if you compare that one incident to the hell
>the Ringbearers had to endure, it doesn't seem very 'proportional'.
>Either Pippin is a bit of a wimp, or F and S were indeed tough little
>cookies :)
>
>(putting the book down) I think I did my share of hairsplitting! :)

Never enough hairsplitting in r.a.b.t. Hey, didn't Sam and Frodo have
more lembas in their system, so to speak? Suppose that played a part
in their relatively speedy (compared to Pippin anyway) recovery? 

######

From: Mainecoon <MPoet1st@aol.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:34:36 GMT
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In article <378c0c29.269223199@news.earthlink.net>,
  prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) wrote:
> Looking up the scene on the Field of Cormallen (the reason why will
> later appear under the Sign of the Tilde) I ran across a scribbled
> note in the margin of my paperback edition which I think makes a
> rather interesting observation:
>
> Despite the fact that Frodo was the Ring-bearer, and presumably in the
> worst shape, had endured the worst of the Quest, etc., in Ithilien
> Frodo awoke before Sam did, which suggests that Sam was in pretty bad
> shape himself -- and Frodo's manner in this scene also suggests that
> Frodo's later troubles were not due to being "destroyed on Mount Doom"
> but to a later spiral of depression re: lingering scars and changes
> from his Quest.
>
> But:  let's look at that Sam thing.
>

Sam's wounds were comparitavely more serious than Frodo's. Sam did lend
a stronger hand in the Quest than Frodo. You must remember than, while
Frodo carried the Ring, Sam carried Frodo. Sam gave Frodo his food,
protected him no matter what, and supported him the entire way. Sam
atleast believed they could do something, finish the quest. When they
destroy the ring, it looks like they'll die anyway. Basicly, Frodo's
wounds, being mental and inflicted by the ring, were, for the most
part, healed when the ring was destroyed. He never believed they would
live anyway, so what's a little detail like dying? Sam, however, had
faith until the very end. Not only is his body hurt, his spirit is hurt
as well. He is at the point of seeing his master, who he has given
EVERYTHING to save, die before he can even see the results of the
Quest. Sam has fought dispair and weakness until it looks like Hope
truely exists no longer. Frodo just carried a little ring.

~Mainecoon


--
"Often the unbidden guest proves the best
company."


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

######

From: Prembone <prembone@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:58:58 GMT
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In article <378c28b9.34366023@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
  herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com (Angela Gunn) wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:08:11 GMT, prembone@excitebitespam.com
> (Prembone) wrote:
>
> >Looking up the scene on the Field of Cormallen (the reason why will
> >later appear under the Sign of the Tilde) I ran across a scribbled
> >note in the margin of my paperback edition which I think makes a
> >rather interesting observation:
> >
> >Despite the fact that Frodo was the Ring-bearer, and presumably in
the
> >worst shape, had endured the worst of the Quest, etc., in Ithilien
> >Frodo awoke before Sam did, which suggests that Sam was in pretty bad
> >shape himself -- and Frodo's manner in this scene also suggests that
> >Frodo's later troubles were not due to being "destroyed on Mount
Doom"
> >but to a later spiral of depression re: lingering scars and changes
> >from his Quest.
>
> Or that there was less mortal stuff left in Frodo that needed sleep,
> that mortal balm? (Aie! What have I done! I can't start this thread...
> must work... Prembone will think this is troll bait and starting
> shooting flaming tildes at me or something... <g>)

No ;-) but I will say I don't agree with the hypothesis. ;-)

> >But:  let's look at that Sam thing.
>
> Oh yeah. Sam was wrecked -- not least because, having endured the
> physical horror of the journey and (to some extent) the malignant
> influence of the nearby Ring, he had the psychological misery of
> seeing what was happening to his beloved master

Yes!  I think that this was in its own way as horrific as what Frodo
endured, and wounded him as deeply in its own way.  We don't **see**
that at first because, as you point out, Sam thinks it's all over, and
Frodo's been brought through, the crisis is past.  But I would give a
year's paychecks to have an honest (not a hobbitish
put-on-a-cheerful-facade) look at Sam in the days and years following
Frodo's departure.  That ending of the unpublished epilogue pretty well
says it all for me:  He says to his wife he's "happy, one and whole,"
but the "sigh and murmur of the waves" continue unstilled in his heart.
 And I don't take that as "sea longing" (anticipating that someone might
suggest this), but as an indication that the loss of Frodo remains
unhealed, and haunts him all his life.

My main point:  Do not underestimate the depth and extent of Sam's
wounding.  My bet is he was just better at covering it up than most, and
until Frodo left the thing that could wound him **most** deeply had not
come to pass, i.e., the loss of Frodo.

(In my Frodo-return story, Sam tells him that what pained him most
wasn't Frodo's leaving and Sam's having to stay, but rather seeing Frodo
give up hope.)

> not to mention of
> shifting from follower to leader in a matter of hours (since Frodo was
> pretty much incapable of leadership post-Cirith Ungol).

I hadn't thought of that aspect, but that's a good point:  that
**would** be a pretty stressful shift for Sam.

> Of course, it
> gets better for Sam when he wakes up, thinking as he did that live
> master=master that will be okay.
>
> Frodo, meanwhile, wakes up relieved to have gotten rid of the Damned
> Thing, certainly a happy-happy-joy-joy moment for any right-thinking
> Ringbearer -- only to realize over time that he's still living with
> the memory and the toll it took on his soul.

Exactly.  And:  This is the near-universal experience of ANY trauma
survivor.  A pity Frodo didn't see that; if only he (Tolkien) had seen
it as par for the course rather than a reflection that he
(Frodo/Tolkien) was somehow unique or peculiar and set apart from the
rest of humanity, wounded in a way "nobody else" had ever been!

Next thread:  Curing Frodo of his Singularity Complex. ;-)

> It ended for Sam.

I wouldn't be too sure of that.  It "ended" for him until Frodo
left...and then I think it haunted him for the rest of his days (even if
Frodo **did** someday come back).

> It didn't end for Frodo.

Deep traumas never really "end" for anyone who experiences them.  Number
one truth for a trauma survivor to grasp:  You will never be the same.
The trauma will always be a part of you.  You will not "heal" in the
sense of being rid of it, but you **can** "heal" in the sense of
acknowledging that it is now a part of you and reassembling the pieces
of your life to include this one that you will now bear for the rest of
your days.

And in Frodo's case, I think that's true even if he stayed in Eressea:
I think his healing would have come (if it did) not from the "magic" but
from his own realization of that simple home truth, that his healing
would come not from removal of the scars but from learning to bear them
and build around them.  And, I am convinced, he would come to see that
this healing task was the same wherever he went, because the key to it
lay within himself.  Wherever he fled, he couldn't flee from himself; at
best, the flight to Eressea served as an object lesson in this regard.
But what a costly lesson it was!

> (You know, it's the only wish of Sam's he didn't
> see come true ["But I hope he's all right otherwise. He's had a cruel
> time."] -- hmm.

I **know**!  And by Frodo's own hand, so to speak, that it **didn't**
come true.

Few things wrench me as deeply as the irony of Frodo's cheerful, "Yes I
am all right otherwise."  If only he'd been able to couple realistic
expectations of the effects of the Quest with a will to build life anew,
even if not a return to the "old" version, he might well have bade
farewell to Bilbo at the Havens and returned with Sam.

> Proof that Sam *did* sail West I suppose, the gods
> being loath to blow their no-hitter on the last pitch.)

Or that Frodo **did** get granted a return.  I like to envision Frodo,
when the time comes, deciding **not** to sail back to Eressea in old
age, because he no longer "needs" it:  he's come to realize that
everything he wished to find over the sea could be found right here in
good old Middle-earth.

> Hey, here's a thought: Sam slept longer than Frodo. Sam healed better
> than Frodo. Ergo, if someone had slipped Mr. Baggins a Mickey when
> first his eyelids fluttered, he would have had that extra couple of
> hours and... hey it could work; heaven knows I'm a cross old thing
> when I've missed an hour or two of shut-eye.

Yah. You betcha. ;-)

> Not procrastinating on work, I swear --

Well, dammit, you'd better work on that.  I wrote that whole "Beavis and
Butthead Do Mordor" episode at work last night. ;-)  Personal business
on company time:  if you can get away with it, go for it.

> (kidding herself).

That's better. ;-)

I know you probably didn't want me to reply to all that, but I'm
possessed by Frodo's ghost...this will never die...

--
Prembone
**************************************************
The Prembone Pages: Humor, Opinion, Parody, Satire
http://www.geocities.com/~prembone/


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

######

From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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Well, Pippin was pretty well buried in trolls and so on -- he might have
ingested some of their blood, and been ill from that, as well as injured in the
battle.
---
FernWithy
"If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual
moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical
fact, a practical force in human affairs."  -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre)

######

From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:52:21 GMT
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On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 03:23:16 +0200, Jereeza
<mia@dessin.beaux-arts.com> wrote:

>Prembone wrote:
>
>> No, Pippin didn't endure the long, drawn-out draining that Sam and
>> Frodo did, but if you've been brought to the brink of death, it doesn't
>> really matter **how** you got there:  the net result is "critical
>> condition." ;-)
>
>Yes, but in Pippin's case it somehow doesn't seem convincing enough - Merry
>I can understand, but having a troll fall over you is a bit... er... well,
>you know. Just not the same.

Hmmm....or maybe this illustrates one of my pet points: Beneath the
differences in **how** each of them came to the brink of death, they
shared commonality in the basic experience of being injured to the
point of nearly dying.


All Homage To The Elton!!!
Prembone (remove b.s. phrase when replying)
The Elton John Worship Page
http://www.geocities.com/~prembone/elton/

######

From: Flame of the West <jsolinas@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:56:28 -0400
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> Despite the fact that Frodo was the Ring-bearer, and presumably in the
> worst shape, had endured the worst of the Quest, etc., in Ithilien
> Frodo awoke before Sam did, which suggests that Sam was in pretty bad
> shape himself -- and Frodo's manner in this scene also suggests that
> Frodo's later troubles were not due to being "destroyed on Mount Doom"
> but to a later spiral of depression re: lingering scars and changes
> from his Quest.

No no, his wounds were "magic" wounds from the evil blade and being
overcome by the Ring.  That's why they only kicked in on the
anniversaries.  Also, Queen Arwen would have given Frodo a stress
ball rather than the gem if she thought that F. was just a little
messed up.  And it certainly doesn't jive with JRRT's conception of
Valinor to think of it as a big funny farm or halfway house for
screwed-up Middle-Earthers.

Of course, I can't argue with the "scars and changes" formulation.
I imagine that even Elrond himself couldn't prevent a scar where
Frodo was stabbed on Weathertop.  And losing a finger is indeed a
"change".

It really debases the wonder of Middle-Earth to think of Frodo as
a modern garden-variety neurotic rather than a mythic hero.

-- FotW

PS - could it be that Frodo's reluctance to carry a sword was due to
a subliminal wish for death?

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:08:53 GMT, tjcgg4@usaor.net (Muse) wrote:

>	What difference could it possibly make?  Maybe Sam sleeps in more,
>maybe Frodo was woken by a bird chirping.  I mean, what relevance
>could there possibly be in such a thing?  

"I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but I
think that one lies in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the
purposed domination of the author."
  -- Tolkien, _Fellowship of the Ring_, Foreword

If you don't want to hear the readers expressing their freedom to
interpret, go away.  That's what we do here.

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:42:57 GMT, jereeza@my-deja.com wrote:


>That's a good question, and I haven't come across it during my deja
>browsing so far!
>We see Sam enjoying the colours and fragrance of Ithilien, but nothing
>is said of how Frodo feels it. He does later respond to the beauty of
>the Queen-to-be Arwen, so it means some of those senses and recognition

But as you say, he seems detached from 'material' things, not
'spiritual' ones.  I would suggest that Arwen was beautiful on both
levels.  From _Morgoth's Ring_:

"For the hearts of true Men uprise in joy to behold the true
likenesses of the First-born, their elder kindred..."

>came back to him. On the other hand, he shows no need for the hobbits'
>drug that is the pipe-weed... the growing introvertion that takes over
>him removes him from all that can be considered, well, 'material',
>worldly or common as opposed to 'spiritual', and I wouldn't discard the
>idea of learning/damage you mentioned, I think the process of
>re-learning the non-Ring world was a painful one, especially since he
>never really *fully* settled into it again. I think he lost much of that
>simple world-appreciation such as enjoying the taste of fruit, etc. The
>world must've lost a lot of its 'colour' to him after he'd been 'drained
>out' by the Ring.

This is an interesting and very plausible theory.

It seems that what happened to Frodo is very similar to Elvish
'fading'.  In that case, going to Eressea may be the best way to deal
with it, compared to the unbearable pain of remaining in a world that
is physically beautiful but spiritually empty.

OTOH, you suggest that he would *eventually* recover and learn to
appreciate the 'material' again.  This sounds too much like expecting
him to become un-wounded, like healing without scars.  It's not going
to happen.

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On 15 Jul 1999 01:22:28 GMT, fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) wrote:

>Well, Pippin was pretty well buried in trolls and so on -- he might have
>ingested some of their blood, and been ill from that, as well as injured in the
>battle.

In the Silmarillion, troll blood is nasty corrosive stuff.  That would
make him pretty ill.

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:26:58 GMT, Prembone <prembone@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>Though F and S did indeed demonstrate remarkable endurance, we need to
>consider that all three of them had been recovered from near-death,
>which puts them on more or less the same level in terms of criticality.
>
> No, Pippin didn't endure the long, drawn-out draining that Sam and
>Frodo did, but if you've been brought to the brink of death, it doesn't
>really matter **how** you got there:  the net result is "critical
>condition." ;-)

I'm not sure I buy that.  Someone who's near death as a result of
being crushed by a heavy object doesn't endure the same
*psychological* trauma as someone who's been sent off on a suicide
mission, stabbed, poisoned, and generally exhausted for several months
while under the influence of a mind-destroying magical object.

One more thing: Frodo and Sam didn't eat anything in the last few days
of their quest.  I'm not sure what the effects of low blood sugar are,
but I could see it making them less anxious to get up and run around
out in the fresh air.

######

From: ijb@dl.ac.uk ()
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: 15 Jul 1999 09:54:13 GMT
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In article <7miutm$sjo$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
	jereeza@my-deja.com writes:
> In article <7mhp7a$be0$1@mserv2.dl.ac.uk>,
>   ijb@dl.ac.uk () wrote:
> 
> > Are you qite sure about the awoke there ? I don't have the books to
> hand,
> 
> I have them (I had to dig for RotK through a pile of drawings) and I
> will check the passage for you: (Mia flipping through pages here... Sam
> wakes up... the glad day ended... at length Gandalf rose... ah-ha, here
> we are!)
> 
> /Gimli speaking/ "And it is only a day yet since you were first up and
> abroad again."

Ta ! For some reason the don't consider any of Tolkien's works
essential at work :( The "AIX XL Fortran Compiler/6000 Language
Reference" just ain't the same .....

> 
> (comparing the few pages to the timeline given in the appendices)
> 
> March 25th, Frodo and Sam get to Mt. Doom and put an end to Sauron once
> and for all, Eagles come to rescue, Pippin sees them flying, ergo he
> stabbed the troll more or less at the same time.

Yup.

> April 8th, the Ringbearers are honoured on the Field of Cormallen.
> They woke up early that day, and Pippin the day before, according to
> Gimli. 

That's where my hairsplitting comes in :) It's quite what the phrase
"first up and abroad again" means. You seem to take that as meaning
it was when Pippin awoke again, while I understand it to mean the
first day that Pippin was fit enough to get out of bed for the
first time. So, sort of like Eowyn, he could have been awake
for a few days previously but confined to bed by "Doctor's
orders"

Oh well, I'm not convinced it's a vital thread to the whole
story !

Ian

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:56:28 -0400, Flame of the West
<jsolinas@erols.com> wrote:

>No no, his wounds were "magic" wounds from the evil blade and being
>overcome by the Ring.  That's why they only kicked in on the
>anniversaries.  Also, Queen Arwen would have given Frodo a stress

That could just as easily be psychosomatic.  He *remembers* being
stabbed on this day exactly one year ago, and his mind starts
manufacturing the sensations.  It's quite common, really.  Sort of a
reverse placebo effect.

>ball rather than the gem if she thought that F. was just a little
>messed up.  And it certainly doesn't jive with JRRT's conception of
>Valinor to think of it as a big funny farm or halfway house for
>screwed-up Middle-Earthers.

No, Bilbo and Frodo are the only humans who are allowed to live there.
(Have I missed anyone?  Tuor, maybe, but he wasn't screwed up.  He was
one of the few characters emerging from the First Age without any
major trauma.)  We don't see every soldier of Gondor who was wounded
in battle going there.  (Unless their wounds were fatal, in which case
they go there but they don't stay for long.)

######

From: jereeza@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:59:43 GMT
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In article <378d3dee.44350992@news.earthlink.net>,
  prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) wrote:

> Hmmm....or maybe this illustrates one of my pet points: Beneath the
> differences in **how** each of them came to the brink of death, they
> shared commonality in the basic experience of being injured to the
> point of nearly dying.

That links to your theory of realising that others have suffered too
(Avalon's Reject et al.), doesn't it? Doesn't matter if it was carrying
the Ring or some less supernatural cause, it's the experience of
suffering... ha! A fine system you've got there :)

<OT>
> All Homage To The Elton!!!
If he comes to Trieste on the 22nd, I'm going to the concert. Do you
happen know of an URL with tour dates or something? Dankeschoen...
</OT>


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

######

From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:12:30 GMT
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On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:59:43 GMT, jereeza@my-deja.com wrote:

>In article <378d3dee.44350992@news.earthlink.net>,
>  prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) wrote:
>
>> Hmmm....or maybe this illustrates one of my pet points: Beneath the
>> differences in **how** each of them came to the brink of death, they
>> shared commonality in the basic experience of being injured to the
>> point of nearly dying.
>
>That links to your theory of realising that others have suffered too
>(Avalon's Reject et al.), doesn't it? Doesn't matter if it was carrying
>the Ring or some less supernatural cause, it's the experience of
>suffering... ha! A fine system you've got there :)

Yep.  That be my system. ;-)  Rooted in the common humanity and the
subjective experience of suffering, rather than in the individual
particulars.  The latter view isolates and alienates us; the former
view unites us and creates community.

><OT>
>> All Homage To The Elton!!!
>If he comes to Trieste on the 22nd, I'm going to the concert. Do you
>happen know of an URL with tour dates or something? Dankeschoen...
></OT>

Es tut mir leid, aber Der Elton ist krank.  His upcoming concerts have
been postponed for a month or two, then he's basically on a year's
rest, per doctor's orders.  He had a pacemaker installed to correct a
"minor problem" in his heart (that's what they say, at least).  Check
http://www.eltonfan.com/ for frequently-updated news about Elton.

BTW, whenever my Elton sig comes up, you know I just got done posting
to alt.fan.elton-john. ;-)


"I've better things to do with my eternity than further
 your prurient interests." -- Frodo's Ghost

~~~Tilde Power!~~~

The Prembone Pages  http://www.geocities.com/~prembone/

######

From: Jereeza <mia@dessin.beaux-arts.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:51:29 -0700
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Prembone wrote:

> ><OT>

> Es tut mir leid, aber Der Elton ist krank.  His upcoming concerts have
> been postponed for a month or two, then he's basically on a year's
> rest, per doctor's orders.  He had a pacemaker installed to correct a
> "minor problem" in his heart (that's what they say, at least).  Check
> http://www.eltonfan.com/ for frequently-updated news about Elton.

Ja, ich hab' darueber gelesen... Schade.

######

From: "RLV" <xxxx@xxxx.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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Mark Wells wrote in message <378dab21.102087632@news.pc-intouch.com>...
>On 15 Jul 1999 01:22:28 GMT, fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) wrote:
>
>>Well, Pippin was pretty well buried in trolls and so on -- he might have
>>ingested some of their blood, and been ill from that, as well as injured
in the
>>battle.
>
>In the Silmarillion, troll blood is nasty corrosive stuff.  That would
>make him pretty ill.


Stop!

It was not bad enough for poor Pippin to be smashed by a troll. First you
have him poisoned. Now burned by Troll blood! Next you will say he caught
some sort of disease from the dirty troll. And then will come the venereal
diseases... please, stop! ;-)


                  R.L.V.
                ~~#~~
     "Call me mead-tongue"

######

From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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>OTOH, you suggest that he would *eventually* recover and learn to
>appreciate the 'material' again.  This sounds too much like expecting
>him to become un-wounded, like healing without scars.  It's not going
>to happen.

I don't think it sounds like expecting him to be unwounded; more like it's
expecting him to learn to live with his wounds.  An amputee is never going to
have natural limbs again, but that doesn't mean s/he can't learn to enjoy life.
---
FernWithy
"If [moral] behavior is to be, it cannot be as a result of an intellectual
moral stance; it is because there is such a thing as love, merely a practical
fact, a practical force in human affairs."  -- Stephen King (Danse Macabre)

######

From: Mike Kew <Brandybuck@kew1.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:11:39 +0100
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On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Angela Gunn <herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com> wrote
>Hey, here's a thought: Sam slept longer than Frodo. Sam healed better
>than Frodo. Ergo, if someone had slipped Mr. Baggins a Mickey when
>first his eyelids fluttered, he would have had that extra couple of
>hours and... hey it could work; heaven knows I'm a cross old thing
>when I've missed an hour or two of shut-eye.

I think this is the key to the riddle.  Have you never noticed how, when
you're *really* *really* tired, you sleep only lightly and restlessly,
often waking with the lark?  Then, of course, you go through the whole
day light-headed.  Personally I can go through a whole week like that,
before the really heavy sleep finally hits.

Of course, such light sleep gives you much less rest, and you get
progressively more tired the longer it lasts, unless you can take it
very easy while you're awake.  But I'm sure this gets Sam off to a much
better start in the healing process.

-- 
Mike Kew

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:07:04 +0200, Jereeza
<mia@dessin.beaux-arts.com> wrote:

>I hope so! Though I doubt there was cure for him, even in the West <sigh>,
>because as I see it the post-Quest Frodo is lost somewhere between the
>'ordinary' world of ME and the 'magic' one of Valinor, and doesn't truly
>belong anywhere anymore. I think I rambled about this in some earlier post,
>that he *was* sacrificed, *was* lost - he didn't die (which would be an
>obvious, 'visible' sacrifice), but he couldn't settle in either world, and
>being 'sentenced' to never finding peace is a fate even worse than dying.

But in Earendil's case (the only one even remotely similar, in that he
couldn't be allowed to return to Middle-earth but wasn't supposed to
be in Valinor in the first place), this was seen as a special grace of
the Valar.

######

From: herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com (Angela Gunn)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:11:39 +0100, Mike Kew
<Brandybuck@kew1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Angela Gunn <herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com> wrote
>>Hey, here's a thought: Sam slept longer than Frodo. Sam healed better
>>than Frodo. Ergo, if someone had slipped Mr. Baggins a Mickey when
>>first his eyelids fluttered, he would have had that extra couple of
>>hours and... hey it could work; heaven knows I'm a cross old thing
>>when I've missed an hour or two of shut-eye.
>
>I think this is the key to the riddle.  Have you never noticed how, when
>you're *really* *really* tired, you sleep only lightly and restlessly,
>often waking with the lark?  Then, of course, you go through the whole
>day light-headed.  Personally I can go through a whole week like that,
>before the really heavy sleep finally hits.

Or you don't sleep at all -- after an all-nighter I'm awful about
staying up just because I can't let go of whatever was keeping me
awake. ('Round here we call it shark-mode -- you're moving forward
constantly, but you have little brain function to speak of.) I get a
lot of cleaning done that way. And then I fall over, sleep WAY too
deep, and spend the next day light-headed too.

But now that we've gotten that pointless bit of biography out of the
way <g> -- exactly. Sam's labor was immense, but in the end it didn't
cross that really-really line. Frodo endured the same hardships, plus
the psychological torment, plus the
veiled-only-for-Sam's-sake-I-suspect wish to die right there on Mount
Doom. (His Ring is gone, he's been tortured and starved and god knows
what else, and as far as he knows the entire Company is dead -- if Sam
hadn't been there, I'm thinking he would have wandered into the Crack
of Doom just for lack of a better idea.)

>Of course, such light sleep gives you much less rest, and you get
>progressively more tired the longer it lasts, unless you can take it
>very easy while you're awake.  But I'm sure this gets Sam off to a much
>better start in the healing process.

Makes sense to me -- but then again, Sam has at every point in the
story a remarkable capability to just Be In The Moment. Frodo was
given a very special kind of grace to complete his task (that's
bearing the Ring, not destroying it); Sam embodied a wholly different
kind but had it in spades.

AG
two deadlines down, one to go! woohoo!

######

From: herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com (Angela Gunn)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:31:40 GMT, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
wrote:

>It seems that what happened to Frodo is very similar to Elvish
>'fading'.  In that case, going to Eressea may be the best way to deal
>with it, compared to the unbearable pain of remaining in a world that
>is physically beautiful but spiritually empty.

Shades of Rivendell, where the wound of the Witch-King had caused
Frodo to begin to fade...

######

From: herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com (Angela Gunn)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:56:07 GMT, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
wrote:

>No, Bilbo and Frodo are the only humans who are allowed to live there.
>(Have I missed anyone?  Tuor, maybe, but he wasn't screwed up.  He was
>one of the few characters emerging from the First Age without any
>major trauma.)  We don't see every soldier of Gondor who was wounded
>in battle going there.  (Unless their wounds were fatal, in which case
>they go there but they don't stay for long.)

Gimli -- okay, not *human*, but mortal.

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 01:20:30 GMT, herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com
(Angela Gunn) wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:31:40 GMT, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
>wrote:
>
>>It seems that what happened to Frodo is very similar to Elvish
>>'fading'.  In that case, going to Eressea may be the best way to deal
>>with it, compared to the unbearable pain of remaining in a world that
>>is physically beautiful but spiritually empty.
>
>Shades of Rivendell, where the wound of the Witch-King had caused
>Frodo to begin to fade...

Actually, he'd begun to fade before that.

Gandalf says that the Witch-King's knife was intended to turn Frodo
into a wraith.  Well, that would be the end result of carrying the
Ring for too long also.  And in fact, by the end of Frodo's quest,
he's suffering from an almost wraith-like existence: his memory of
sensations and his awareness of the physical world in general is
fading, and he's becoming increasingly concerned with the spiritual
aspects of his existence.

If the Ring and the Morgul-knife both work by tampering with Frodo's
mortality, which I'm convinced they do, maybe he's starting to feel
the otherwise uniquely Elvish experience of losing interest in the
rapidly-changing physical world.

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 01:22:29 GMT, herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com
(Angela Gunn) wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:56:07 GMT, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
>wrote:
>
>>No, Bilbo and Frodo are the only humans who are allowed to live there.
>>(Have I missed anyone?  Tuor, maybe, but he wasn't screwed up.  He was
>>one of the few characters emerging from the First Age without any
>>major trauma.)  We don't see every soldier of Gondor who was wounded
>>in battle going there.  (Unless their wounds were fatal, in which case
>>they go there but they don't stay for long.)
>
>Gimli -- okay, not *human*, but mortal.

Of course, that's only a rumor.

In any case, we don't know that he was allowed to live there.  Maybe
it was enough for him to see Galadriel once more from the deck of his
ship so that he could die a happy Dwarf.

Of course, this doesn't affect the point of my post.  Gimli was even
less screwed up than Tuor.

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen)
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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Quoth mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells):
> (Have I missed anyone?  Tuor, maybe, but he wasn't screwed up.  He was
> one of the few characters emerging from the First Age without any
> major trauma.)

No major trauma?  It says something about how screwed up the First Age
was in general that someone whose father was killed when he was just a
boy, whose mother went to the heap of corpses where he had doubtless
ended up and just lay down to die, who was held as a thrall by the
chieftan of an occupying nation, and most of all whose entire
community was razed to the ground because of the treachery of his
cousin-in-law counts as someone "without any major trauma". :)

					     Steuard Jensen

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 01:15:08 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu
(Steuard Jensen) wrote:

>No major trauma?  It says something about how screwed up the First Age
>was in general that someone whose father was killed when he was just a
>boy, whose mother went to the heap of corpses where he had doubtless
>ended up and just lay down to die, who was held as a thrall by the
>chieftan of an occupying nation, and most of all whose entire
>community was razed to the ground because of the treachery of his
>cousin-in-law counts as someone "without any major trauma". :)

That's what I mean.  By First Age standards, Tuor had a pretty decent
life.  Of course, my judgment is probably a little distorted by the
fact that he *survived*, as opposed to being impaled on a sharp
instrument like everyone else in the First Age.

######

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jereeza@my-deja.com wrote:
...
> Frodo and Sam to recover enough to be up and about, as they say. So the
> troll fell over Pippin, but if you compare that one incident to the hell
> the Ringbearers had to endure, it doesn't seem very 'proportional'.
> Either Pippin is a bit of a wimp, or F and S were indeed tough little
> cookies :)

That depends very much on how the troll fell on Pippin. I could imagine
such a fall even being fatal to Pippin, depending upon the two (or
more?) participant's postures at the time.

######

From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:42:29 GMT
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On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:56:28 -0400, Flame of the West
<jsolinas@erols.com> wrote:

>
>> Despite the fact that Frodo was the Ring-bearer, and presumably in the
>> worst shape, had endured the worst of the Quest, etc., in Ithilien
>> Frodo awoke before Sam did, which suggests that Sam was in pretty bad
>> shape himself -- and Frodo's manner in this scene also suggests that
>> Frodo's later troubles were not due to being "destroyed on Mount Doom"
>> but to a later spiral of depression re: lingering scars and changes
>> from his Quest.
>
>No no, his wounds were "magic" wounds from the evil blade and being
>overcome by the Ring. 

If I had a dime for every time someone said, "But they were MAGIC
wounds!!" ... ;-)  I am not convinced that the "magic" aspect was the
determining factor in Frodo's post-Quest disintegration.  I believe it
was predominantly psychological, and reversible.  But I also have the
advantage of knowledge re: the nature of trauma and recovery that was
not available to Tolkien, so it does not surprise me if he did not see
**how** it was possible for Frodo to get better and go on.

> That's why they only kicked in on the anniversaries.

Actually, this phenomenon of anniversary illness has a wholly natural
counterpart in the real world, and since Frodo would have suffered
from the natural, human responses to the experience of being
traumatized (as well as any "magic" effects),  it is entirely
plausible, even probable, that he was experiencing the natural
psycho-somatic aftereffect of anniversary illness.

>  Also, Queen Arwen would have given Frodo a stress
>ball rather than the gem if she thought that F. was just a little
>messed up.

Methinks you are trivializing the treatment of trauma, here.  ;-) And,
too, we are again running up against the limits of JRRT's knowledge of
the effective treatment of post-traumatic disorders.  If you read the
experiences of men of his day, the vets of WWI in particular, you will
see that the common wisdom was that something was wrong with the
person if they experienced PTSD, rather than (as we now understand)
PTSD being a natural reaction to severe traumatization.  In such a
social climate, coupled with that damn "stiff upper lip" mentality,
it's not surprising that JRRT failed to see a way for Frodo to go on
in Middle-earth.  That doesn't mean it wasn't possible; it just means
he did not see all the possibilities inherent in the situation he set
up.

>  And it certainly doesn't jive with JRRT's conception of
>Valinor to think of it as a big funny farm or halfway house for
>screwed-up Middle-Earthers.

Why are you so contemptuous of people suffering from psychological
disorders?  Wouldn't empathy and compassion for frail humanity, and
providing support and guidance for healing and reintegration, be more
in keeping with a Christian belief system?

>Of course, I can't argue with the "scars and changes" formulation.
>I imagine that even Elrond himself couldn't prevent a scar where
>Frodo was stabbed on Weathertop.  And losing a finger is indeed a
>"change".

I was referring to the psychological changes, not merely the
superficial physical ones.  Surely you understood this?

>It really debases the wonder of Middle-Earth to think of Frodo as
>a modern garden-variety neurotic rather than a mythic hero.

Debases?  I think if anything is debasing it is this remote, removed
simplification of human richness and complexity into a "mythic hero."
It is debasing to the AUTHENTIC human experience of woundedness and
healing to obscure the hero's humanity and struggle and render his
dissociation from the world as a sign of heroic elevation/apotheosis
rather than letting it be seen as the human weakness and symptom of
dis-ease that it is.

 Despite his flaws (e.g., lack of mercy re: Gollum) Frodo was a much
healthier individual at the beginning of the book than at the end.
Nothing is so sad as seeing Frodo the Human Being reduced to Frodo the
Icon over the course of the book.  He is denied the dignity of being
called just plain Frodo, the **personal** perspective of him as Frodo
Baggins, human being, gives way to the "mythic" abstraction of
Ring-bearer, functionary and symbol.  Bleah.

The only way to redeem and heal Frodo is to reinstate his humanity.
(Ergo, Middle-earth essential to his healing.)

>PS - could it be that Frodo's reluctance to carry a sword was due to
>a subliminal wish for death?

Given the mess that he was at that point, it wouldn't surprise me.
But my best guess is that it was a reaction to his horror at raising
his sword against Sam, somewhat like his later horror at realizaing
that he did, after all, have a part within him that could desire the
Ring (as do we all).


"For if that which you seek, you find not within yourself,
 you will never find it without." -- Charge of the Star Goddess

The Secular Paganist  http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan (new URL)

######

From: Flame of the West <jsolinas@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:09:43 -0400
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Prembone wrote:

> I am not convinced that the "magic" aspect was the
> determining factor in Frodo's post-Quest disintegration.  I believe it
> was predominantly psychological, and reversible.  But I also have the
> advantage of knowledge re: the nature of trauma and recovery that was
> not available to Tolkien, so it does not surprise me if he did not see
> **how** it was possible for Frodo to get better and go on.

<snip>

> too, we are again running up against the limits of JRRT's knowledge of
> the effective treatment of post-traumatic disorders.

<snip>

> it's not surprising that JRRT failed to see a way for Frodo to go on
> in Middle-earth.  That doesn't mean it wasn't possible; it just means
> he did not see all the possibilities inherent in the situation he set up.

Part of the "situation he set up" was the nature of humanity/hobbitkind
as he saw it.  To say that he didn't know enough about hobbits to
diagnose Frodo's hurts is to say that Tolkien was *wrong* about his
own creation.  In rebuttal, I quote a recent post by James Kuyper Jr.:

> Like all works of fantasy, and to a lesser extent all works of fiction,
> Tolkien's works define an alternate reality. That reality's Creator is
> Tolkien, and what he believed was true about it, at least internally, is
> necessarily true. What he believed about its connection to our reality
> is certainly open to disagreement, but that's a different issue. You can
> also make aesthetic judgements of the decisions he's made he's made
> about the design of his world, but as long as they're internally
> consistent, the most you can say is that you don't like them.
>
> In our world I don't believe there is anything at all like the "Undying
> Lands", and therefore trying to go there would be a waste of time and a
> distraction from one's real tasks in life. However, Tolkien defined the
> Undying Lands to be just as real, just as much a part of Ea, as Middle
> Earth, and therefore (with the right permissions, which Frodo had) just
> as appropriate a place for a mortal to pursue his life.

The only thing I need add to this excellent post is that the metaphysical
and psychological nature of the inhabitants of Middle-Earth is one of the
things you have to take for granted.  Your description of Frodo's PTSD
fits your own conception of what people are like, but it is not Tolkien's
view (and indeed couldn't have been for anyone of his era, as you point
out).  Therefore it is not the "truth" of Middle-Earth.  What you really
ought to say is that a real person in Frodo's place would naturally
suffer from PTSD, not that Frodo himself did.

-- FotW

######

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Prembone wrote:
...
> nature and behavior to the "reality" test.  The "alternate reality" is
> making a truth-claim about "what really is real," and so it is not

I didn't notice that truth-claim. Where's it made?

######

From: Flame of the West <jsolinas@erols.com>
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Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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Prembone wrote:

> I didn't agree with what James said the first time I read it.  I
> believe that we can and should hold the fictional depictions of human
> nature and behavior to the "reality" test.  The "alternate reality" is
> making a truth-claim about "what really is real," and so it is not
> only appropriate but desirable to critique it from the standpoint of
> what we know about " the real world."

But are you willing to be consistent about this?  You've mentioned that
you are a non-theist.  Therefore you must believe that Tolkien was
equally wrong when he depicted Arda as having been created by Eru.
You are unwilling to suspend your belief on the minor question of
whether Frodo's wounds were ordinary, producing PTSD, or extra-
ordinary based on their "magic" nature.  Do you suspend your belief
on the infinitely more important question of the creation of the
universe?  And if not, what are the implications for the existence of
the Valar, the Undying Lands, and of immortal elves?

-- FotW

######

From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:09:43 -0400, Flame of the West
<jsolinas@erols.com> wrote:

>Prembone wrote:

>> it's not surprising that JRRT failed to see a way for Frodo to go on
>> in Middle-earth.  That doesn't mean it wasn't possible; it just means
>> he did not see all the possibilities inherent in the situation he set up.
>
>Part of the "situation he set up" was the nature of humanity/hobbitkind
>as he saw it.  To say that he didn't know enough about hobbits to
>diagnose Frodo's hurts is to say that Tolkien was *wrong* about his
>own creation. 

No, it is to say that Tolkien was wrong in his concept of the nature
of humanity.  He portrayed his creations according to his own best
lights.  His own best lights were missing some information essential
to an accurate diagnosis/prognosis for a traumatized human being.

>In rebuttal, I quote a recent post by James Kuyper Jr.:

I didn't agree with what James said the first time I read it.  I
believe that we can and should hold the fictional depictions of human
nature and behavior to the "reality" test.  The "alternate reality" is
making a truth-claim about "what really is real," and so it is not
only appropriate but desirable to critique it from the standpoint of
what we know about " the real world."

>> In our world I don't believe there is anything at all like the "Undying
>> Lands", and therefore trying to go there would be a waste of time and a
>> distraction from one's real tasks in life. However, Tolkien defined the
>> Undying Lands to be just as real, just as much a part of Ea, as Middle
>> Earth, and therefore (with the right permissions, which Frodo had) just
>> as appropriate a place for a mortal to pursue his life.

I didn't agree with James on this, either.

>The only thing I need add to this excellent post is that the metaphysical
>and psychological nature of the inhabitants of Middle-Earth is one of the
>things you have to take for granted.  Your description of Frodo's PTSD
>fits your own conception of what people are like, but it is not Tolkien's
>view (and indeed couldn't have been for anyone of his era, as you point
>out).

It doesn't matter if it fits "my conception" or "Tolkien's
conception."  What matters is if it fits the way humans really
**are**.  And I think that at this point in time the effects of
traumatization upon body and mind are fairly well documented, as is
the knowledge of what approaches work best in treating traumatized
people and helping them reintegrate into normal life.

>  Therefore it is not the "truth" of Middle-Earth.  What you really
>ought to say 

In your humble opinion. ;-)

>is that a real person in Frodo's place would naturally
>suffer from PTSD, not that Frodo himself did.

But Frodo **is** a person, a human being, and therefore what we know
of human nature is applicable to him.  When he gets cut, he bleeds; if
a boulder is dropped on his leg, it would break; likewise, if his
mind/psyche is subjected to a traumatizing event, or series of events,
it will manifest the same natural symptoms of brokenness that the body
would.

In essence, you, James, and others want to see difference where I and
others are seeing commonality.  Frodo was a human being, "one of us,"
not a thing apart incomparable to anyone else.  To lose sight of his
essential humanity is to misunderstand Frodo and his story.


"Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
 If you're alive, it isn't." -- Richard Bach

The Secular Paganist  http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan (new URL)
CyberKaryn: The Writings  http://clik.to/cyberkaryn

######

Message-ID: <379B4717.49C45BAA@home.com>
From: Tom Flanigan <tomflanigan@home.com>
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Usually I just lurk, but....



> It doesn't matter if it fits "my conception" or "Tolkien's
> conception." 

Difference between you and Tolkein: Tolkein wrote The LotR, and anything he
wrote is _correct_ in LotR, even if in the real world it isn't.

 What matters is if it fits the way humans really
> **are**.  And I think that at this point in time the effects of
> traumatization upon body and mind are fairly well documented, as is
> the knowledge of what approaches work best in treating traumatized
> people and helping them reintegrate into normal life.

I disagree.

Tolkein created an entirely different universe. In creating his universe, he
borrowed elements from our -- the real -- universe. For instance, he plucked
humanity up and stuck them in Middle Earth. When he did this, however, he
_didn't_ borrow the _real_ humanity. He borrowed his conception of humanity,
which was flawed (seeing as he didn't have access to modern medicine, etc.)

 
> But Frodo **is** a person, a human being, and therefore what we know
> of human nature is applicable to him.  When he gets cut, he bleeds; if
> a boulder is dropped on his leg, it would break; likewise, if his
> mind/psyche is subjected to a traumatizing event, or series of events,
> it will manifest the same natural symptoms of brokenness that the body
> would.

Tolkein created Frodo. He created Frodo using what he knew about humanity.
Frodo only exists through Tolkein, and if Tolkein's perception of humanity was
flawed (as he didn't have access to modern medicine) then, well, Frodo is
different. 

This is difficult to explain.

It doesn't matter whether or not the mind/psyche would
> 
> In essence, you, James, and others want to see difference where I and
> others are seeing commonality.  Frodo was a human being, "one of us,"
> not a thing apart incomparable to anyone else.  To lose sight of his
> essential humanity is to misunderstand Frodo and his story.
>

Well, for one thing, lets not forget Frodo was a _hobbit_...and what we know
about hobbits (their psyche, etc.) isn't necesarily the same as human beings. 

Sure, LotR was a story about humanity -- but what we're quibbling about is
irrelevant. If Tolkein thought x, then x is true...even if, in the real world,
it isn't. 

I hope I'm making myself clear. Heh...

----------------------------------
Tom Flanigan 
tomflanigan(at)home(dot)com

######

From: Flame of the West <jsolinas@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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> Well, for one thing, lets not forget Frodo was a _hobbit_...and what we know
> about hobbits (their psyche, etc.) isn't necesarily the same as human beings.

You know, I've been resisting the tempation to go into this (but here I go).
As a hobbit, Frodo was a lot more resilient than Men were.  The four hobbits
repeatedly surprised Gandalf, Aragorn, the Warden of the House of Healing,
etc., with their toughness.  Thus I don't think that we can extrapolate from
Viet Nam vets and assume that hobbits are as easily traumatized as we are.
That is why we must assume that much of Frodo's hurt is due to the "magic"
nature of his wounds.

-- FotW

######

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prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) writes:
>
> On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:09:43 -0400, Flame of the West
> <jsolinas@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Prembone wrote:
>
> >> it's not surprising that JRRT failed to see a way for Frodo to go on
> >> in Middle-earth.  That doesn't mean it wasn't possible; it just means
> >> he did not see all the possibilities inherent in the situation he set up.

He did not fail to see an way. He was not interested in finding one. No
need to have one for the story he intended. This is a story about
sacrificing the self for ones society. Not about individual self
realisation.

You may not like this aspect. But LotR _was_ written half an century
ago, by an author who grew up in an totally different social value
system as the one we today live in (19th century country).

And I should add: he saw the present value system spreading and was
against it (he no doubt blamed WWI on the new value system).


> >Part of the "situation he set up" was the nature of humanity/hobbitkind
> >as he saw it.  To say that he didn't know enough about hobbits to
> >diagnose Frodo's hurts is to say that Tolkien was *wrong* about his
> >own creation.

He definitely knew about hobbits. Everything. He invented them and
sure better than anyone knew how they are supposed to be.


> No, it is to say that Tolkien was wrong in his concept of the nature
> of humanity.  He portrayed his creations according to his own best
> lights.

Any evidence for this?

He _definitely_ portrayed his creations the way he _wanted_ them to
be. There is no proof whatsoever that ME creatures were intended to
be _exactly_ like real earth (RE) creatures.

Note that ME dwarves/khazad were explicitely claimed to not be RE
folklore dwarfs. And ME elves/quendi are definitely not RE elves/faries.


>  His own best lights were missing some information essential
> to an accurate diagnosis/prognosis for a traumatized human being.

Missing information? Evidence for this?

He did not intend ME humans (let allone hobbits) to be RE humans.
They are somewhat similar, so he used familiar words (the same as with
dwaves and elves) to suggest appearance and some features. This
"reuse" brings with it the danger of people taking it too literal,
like you are doing.


> >In rebuttal, I quote a recent post by James Kuyper Jr.:
>
> I didn't agree with what James said the first time I read it.  I           
> believe that we can and should hold the fictional depictions of human
> nature and behavior to the "reality" test.

But JRRT is _not_ doing an fictional depictions of RE humans. He ist
writing the history of ME humans. Not the same beasts. 


>  The "alternate reality" is
> making a truth-claim about "what really is real,"

Nope. The alternative reality is providing a setting to tell an story     
which has implications for RE humans. A message from an other world           
(which is no doubt similar to JRRTs _idealised_ idea of the world he
comes from).                                                           


> and so it is not
> only appropriate but desirable to critique it from the standpoint of
> what we know about " the real world."                             

Totally not applicable.

This would apply if JRRT had written his story to be about RE humans
(say as an historical fiction set in past times, like the Illiad).


> >> In our world I don't believe there is anything at all like the "Undying
> >> Lands", and therefore trying to go there would be a waste of time and a
> >> distraction from one's real tasks in life. However, Tolkien defined the
> >> Undying Lands to be just as real, just as much a part of Ea, as Middle

The same as he also defined such "non existant" things as:        

- fire dragons like Smaug
- giant Spiders like Shelob
- elves, drarves, hobbits, ents, orcs, trolls                         
- Eru, valar and maiar (Istari, Balrog, Sauron)                     
- immortals of any type (Eru, valar, maiar, elves)
- Magic (rings that make invisible and can ruin the world, Galadriels mirror)
- transfering ones power to rings, becoming invincible with them
- a spirit world, "fading" to this world, magic knives that can cause this
- ghosts of the dead who can be called to fight                    

This place is ME and not RE.


> >The only thing I need add to this excellent post is that the metaphysical
> >and psychological nature of the inhabitants of Middle-Earth is one of the
> >things you have to take for granted.

Just a few questions to opne eyes: Is the ME world based on atoms? If
so how do many af those above things happen? Tolkien says that Ea was
"woven by the songs of the Ainur". That does not sound like atoms, and
I am sure atoms were known in his time and most likely also to Tolkien.


> >  Your description of Frodo's PTSD
> >fits your own conception of what people are like, but it is not Tolkien's
> >view (and indeed couldn't have been for anyone of his era, as you point
> >out).

Do ME beings consist of cells? Do they have nerves? So what do their
psychic mechanisms look like? To simply claim them to be identical
to RE humans, and as such PTSD to exist is total speculation.


> It doesn't matter if it fits "my conception" or "Tolkien's
> conception."  What matters is if it fits the way humans really
> **are**.

Error. What counts is whether the ME beings fit Tolkiens conception of
what ME is like. And that Frodo does do, completely, nowhere his
behaviour contradicts the physics of ME (so far we can deduce it).


>  And I think that at this point in time the effects of
> traumatization upon body and mind are fairly well documented, as is
> the knowledge of what approaches work best in treating traumatized
> people and helping them reintegrate into normal life.

They may be documented. They may have been documented at the time of
writing. Tolkien may (or may not) have known them. But that is
irrelevant.

What is relevant is, that he definitely did not include them as part
of the definition of ME.


> >  Therefore it is not the "truth" of Middle-Earth.  What you really
> >ought to say
>
> In your humble opinion. ;-)

And in mine, and in quite a few others here IMHO.


> >is that a real person in Frodo's place would naturally
> >suffer from PTSD, not that Frodo himself did.
>
> But Frodo **is** a person, a human being, and therefore what we know
> of human nature is applicable to him.

Frodo is an ME person, a hobbit, somewhat related to ME humans.
Somewhat similar to RE humans, not identical.


>  When he gets cut, he bleeds; if
> a boulder is dropped on his leg, it would break;

These are similarities that Tolkien included.


> likewise, if his
> mind/psyche is subjected to a traumatizing event, or series of events,
> it will manifest the same natural symptoms of brokenness that the body
> would.

Assuming Tolkien had included thes, which he does not seem to have
done.


> In essence, you, James, and others want to see difference where I and
> others are seeing commonality.

Perhaps because there _is_ a difference there. ME is _not_ RE.


>  Frodo was a human being, "one of us,"
> not a thing apart incomparable to anyone else.  To lose sight of his
> essential humanity is to misunderstand Frodo and his story.

Frodo was first and for all an ME being. Within the metaphysics and
physics of ME. Somewhat similar to us. But also deviating in some
respects.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it

######

From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) wrote, in part:

>Despite the fact that Frodo was the Ring-bearer, and presumably in the
>worst shape, had endured the worst of the Quest, etc., in Ithilien
>Frodo awoke before Sam did,

On the one hand, as noted by others, Sam ate less, and carried more,
than his share.

However, Frodo suffered loss of blood from the amputation of a finger,
and was in mortal combat with Gollum. In addition to all the physical
arduousness of his journey, he also had the weight of the Ring itself
upon him, and that weight did not entirely vanish when the Ring was
destroyed.

I think, therefore, we can't conclude that Frodo was less severely
taxed; other explanations must be searched for.

a) Frodo, as the "hero", and as an upper-class Hobbit, is always ready
for action, while a common Hobbit like Sam has enough sense to take
his sleep when he needs it.

We might note, in support of this hypothesis, the episodes of Star
Trek where Kirk, rather than Spock with his more rugged Vulcan
physiology, is the first to wake from poison gas or a sonic blast or
whatever has disabled the bridge crew of the Enterprise.

b) Among of the negative effects of the Ring is to be counted
_insomnia_, from which Frodo had not fully recovered.

John Savard ( teneerf<- )
http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm

######

From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:55:57 GMT
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On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:01:55 GMT, jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca
(John Savard) wrote:

>prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) wrote, in part:
>
>>Despite the fact that Frodo was the Ring-bearer, and presumably in the
>>worst shape, had endured the worst of the Quest, etc., in Ithilien
>>Frodo awoke before Sam did,
>
>On the one hand, as noted by others, Sam ate less, and carried more,
>than his share.
>
>However, Frodo suffered loss of blood from the amputation of a finger,
>and was in mortal combat with Gollum. In addition to all the physical
>arduousness of his journey, he also had the weight of the Ring itself
>upon him, and that weight did not entirely vanish when the Ring was
>destroyed.

I would disagree with this contention.  Since "all that was wrought by
the Ring" was fading, I think that the Ring itself ceased to rule
Frodo once it was destroyed, as evidenced by his immediate restoration
to his right mind on Mount Doom.  What was affecting him was the
aftereffects of the original burden and wounding.


"Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
 If you're alive, it isn't." -- Richard Bach

The Secular Paganist  http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan (new URL)
CyberKaryn: The Writings  http://clik.to/cyberkaryn

######

From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:00:03 GMT
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On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 17:27:38 -0400, Flame of the West
<jsolinas@erols.com> wrote:

>> Well, for one thing, lets not forget Frodo was a _hobbit_...and what we know
>> about hobbits (their psyche, etc.) isn't necesarily the same as human beings.
>
>You know, I've been resisting the tempation to go into this (but here I go).
>As a hobbit, Frodo was a lot more resilient than Men were.  The four hobbits
>repeatedly surprised Gandalf, Aragorn, the Warden of the House of Healing,
>etc., with their toughness.  Thus I don't think that we can extrapolate from
>Viet Nam vets and assume that hobbits are as easily traumatized as we are.

Hobbits were human beings.  A particularly durable race of humans,
perhaps, no doubt a compensation for the inherent vulnerability of
their smaller size and lesser force-strength.  Nevertheless, they were
simply another branch of the human race, as Tolkien himself stated as
well as implied.  Therefore we can extrapolate from real human nature
and experience and apply it to hobbits.

And..."easily" traumatized?  When you're speaking of horrific war
experiences, you call that "easily" traumatized?

>That is why we must assume that much of Frodo's hurt is due to the "magic"
>nature of his wounds.

"Must"??? Say, rather, that that is why **you** assume...  The rest of
us are under no imperative to do any such thing. ;-)


"Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
 If you're alive, it isn't." -- Richard Bach

The Secular Paganist  http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan (new URL)
CyberKaryn: The Writings  http://clik.to/cyberkaryn

######

From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:14:37 GMT
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On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:22:16 GMT, Tom Flanigan <tomflanigan@home.com>
wrote:

>Usually I just lurk, but....

That's all right.  I'll argue with anyone. ;-)

>> It doesn't matter if it fits "my conception" or "Tolkien's
>> conception." 
>
>Difference between you and Tolkein: Tolkein wrote The LotR, and anything he
>wrote is _correct_ in LotR, even if in the real world it isn't.

I don't accept that.  It is possible for an author to be wrong about
something he wrote, even regarding one of his own creations.

> What matters is if it fits the way humans really
>> **are**.  And I think that at this point in time the effects of
>> traumatization upon body and mind are fairly well documented, as is
>> the knowledge of what approaches work best in treating traumatized
>> people and helping them reintegrate into normal life.
>
>I disagree.

Well, I disagree with your disagreement.  The research is there.  We
don't have all the answers re: treatment, but our understanding of
trauma and recovery is certainly vastly improved over the
understanding in Tolkien's era.

>Tolkein created an entirely different universe. In creating his universe, he
>borrowed elements from our -- the real -- universe. For instance, he plucked
>humanity up and stuck them in Middle Earth. When he did this, however, he
>_didn't_ borrow the _real_ humanity. He borrowed his conception of humanity,
>which was flawed (seeing as he didn't have access to modern medicine, etc.)

Any good novel is still at heart about **real** humanity, else we
would not connect with it.  In any case, I think Tolkien was still
attempting to depict humanity as he understood it.

>> But Frodo **is** a person, a human being, and therefore what we know
>> of human nature is applicable to him.  When he gets cut, he bleeds; if
>> a boulder is dropped on his leg, it would break; likewise, if his
>> mind/psyche is subjected to a traumatizing event, or series of events,
>> it will manifest the same natural symptoms of brokenness that the body
>> would.
>
>Tolkein created Frodo. He created Frodo using what he knew about humanity.
>Frodo only exists through Tolkein, and if Tolkein's perception of humanity was
>flawed (as he didn't have access to modern medicine) then, well, Frodo is
>different. 

Frodo was still human.  (See below.)  I don't buy the special pleading
that leaves him, or any other character, immune to analysis or
criticism on the claim that "Well, it doesn't have to make sense;
Tolkien created him, and therefore Tolkien was right."  We can and
should apply external criteria of evaluation and critique to the
characters and to the world in which they were set.

>This is difficult to explain.
>
>It doesn't matter whether or not the mind/psyche would

Your sentence got chopped off, here, so I can't really comment on it.

>> In essence, you, James, and others want to see difference where I and
>> others are seeing commonality.  Frodo was a human being, "one of us,"
>> not a thing apart incomparable to anyone else.  To lose sight of his
>> essential humanity is to misunderstand Frodo and his story.
>>
>
>Well, for one thing, lets not forget Frodo was a _hobbit_...and what we know
>about hobbits (their psyche, etc.) isn't necesarily the same as human beings. 

Hobbits **were** human beings.  Tolkien not only implied this, but
explicitly stated so at one point, in a footnote to a letter.  People
seem to lose sight of this little but important fact.

Granted, hobbits had some difference from other races of humans.  But
fundamentally they were, by nature, human, and ranked among the
Younger Children of Iluvatar.  They were more like us than different
from us...rather the way that the various modern "races" are, despite
superficial differences of stature, coloring, longevity, etc., united
in their common human nature.

>Sure, LotR was a story about humanity -- but what we're quibbling about is
>irrelevant.

On the contrary, it is not only relevant but essential to
understanding LOTR and Frodo and what it means for us as human beings.

> If Tolkein thought x, then x is true...even if, in the real world,
>it isn't. 

No, it's not.  If Tolkien thought x, but x is not true, then Tolkien
built on a false premise, and so Tolkien's thought-x is not true.  It
is possible for Tolkien to have been wrong about his own creations.

But beyond that, remains a more fundamental question:  WAS Tolkien
really saying that Frodo **had** to go to Eressea?  Was he **in fact**
claiming that Frodo absolutely could not stay in Middle-earth, or was
he simply depicting that Frodo was given the choice to leave and that
this is what Frodo **did**?  In other words, is Tolkien presenting us
with an "ought" or simply an "is"?

If the latter, then it is possible to say that Frodo was wrong without
implying that Tolkien was wrong.  Just a thought.

>I hope I'm making myself clear. Heh...

Sure.  But I thoroughly disagree with your premises, and so with your
conclusion.  Heh heh. ;-)


"Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
 If you're alive, it isn't." -- Richard Bach

The Secular Paganist  http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan (new URL)
CyberKaryn: The Writings  http://clik.to/cyberkaryn

######

From: Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: 26 Jul 1999 22:13:30 +0200
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John Savard <jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca> wrote:

>I think, therefore, we can't conclude that Frodo was less severely
>taxed; other explanations must be searched for.

Tolkien may have wanted to establish a parallel with Frodo's waking
in Rivendell (maybe as a subtle hint to the reader that not all is yet
well; the Hobbit's stay in Rivendell had only be a pause before going
on to even greater troubles).

At the point of the awakening, the point of view of the Frodo/Sam line
of storytelling had long since shifted to Sam. To make the parralel
work, Tolkien had either to shift the POV back to Frodo or have Sam
wake last.
-- 
Thomas Koenig, Thomas.Koenig@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet.
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double
logarithmic diagram.

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
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On 26 Jul 1999 16:27:53 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:

>He _definitely_ portrayed his creations the way he _wanted_ them to
>be. There is no proof whatsoever that ME creatures were intended to
>be _exactly_ like real earth (RE) creatures.
>
>Note that ME dwarves/khazad were explicitely claimed to not be RE
>folklore dwarfs. And ME elves/quendi are definitely not RE elves/faries.

That's because, as far as anyone knows, there *are* no RE elves or
dwarfs.  They're mythical.  So it's fine for Tolkien to invent his own
myths about Elves and Dwarves that aren't consistent with some of the
other myths.  His myths are free to contradict other myths about the
nature of mythical creatures, but they're not free to contradict
reality on the nature of real creatures.

>>  The "alternate reality" is
>> making a truth-claim about "what really is real,"
>
>Nope. The alternative reality is providing a setting to tell an story     
>which has implications for RE humans. A message from an other world           
>(which is no doubt similar to JRRTs _idealised_ idea of the world he
>comes from).                                                           

Tolkien said that Middle-earth is *not* another world.  It's our
world.  It's just at a period in our world's history in which the
world is still full of Elves and Dwarves and walking trees and magic
rings.  What's that?  That period of our history never happened?  Then
we'll *imagine* that it happened.  That doesn't mean it's not our
world.

>> and so it is not
>> only appropriate but desirable to critique it from the standpoint of
>> what we know about " the real world."                             
>
>Totally not applicable.
>
>This would apply if JRRT had written his story to be about RE humans
>(say as an historical fiction set in past times, like the Illiad).

From Dennis Gerrolt's interview of Tolkien for BBC Radio, January 1971

G: I thought that conceivably Midgard might be Middle-earth or have
some connection? 

T: Oh yes, they're the same word. Most people have made this mistake
of thinking Middle-earth is a particular kind of Earth or
is another planet of the science fiction sort but it's just an old
fashioned word for this world we live in, as imagined surrounded
by the Ocean. 

G: It seemed to me that Middle-earth was in a sense as you say this
world we live in but at a different era. 

T: No ... at a different stage of imagination, yes. ... Well of course
as we all know ultimately we've only got humanity to work with, it's
only clay we've got. ... Hobbits are just rustic English people, made
small in size because it reflects (in general) the small reach of
their imagination - not the small reach of their courage or latent
power.

>The same as he also defined such "non existant" things as:        
>
>- fire dragons like Smaug
>- giant Spiders like Shelob
>- elves, drarves, hobbits, ents, orcs, trolls                         
>- Eru, valar and maiar (Istari, Balrog, Sauron)                     
>- immortals of any type (Eru, valar, maiar, elves)

The rest of the interview
(http://village.vossnet.co.uk/h/hpttrsn/jrrt_int.htm) shows that
Tolkien would undoubtedly disagree with your claim that Eru doesn't
exist.  So would I, for that matter.  Let's leave your religious
opinions out of this.

>> >The only thing I need add to this excellent post is that the metaphysical
>> >and psychological nature of the inhabitants of Middle-Earth is one of the
>> >things you have to take for granted.
>
>Just a few questions to opne eyes: Is the ME world based on atoms? If
>so how do many af those above things happen? Tolkien says that Ea was
>"woven by the songs of the Ainur". That does not sound like atoms, and
>I am sure atoms were known in his time and most likely also to Tolkien.

If you like, you can dig through O. Sharp's web site
(http://www.speakeasy.org/~ohh) for the quantum-mechanical
interpretation of the Ainulindale, but as Tolkien said in the
interview, this is our world at a different stage of imagination.
It's the world as it would appear to someone who didn't know about
atoms.

>Error. What counts is whether the ME beings fit Tolkiens conception of
>what ME is like. And that Frodo does do, completely, nowhere his
>behaviour contradicts the physics of ME (so far we can deduce it).

He doesn't contradict the physics of our world either.  In fact, for
the most part, he behaves exactly like a human should.  If he's not
human, he sure acts like one.  So there's no reason to think the
long-term effects of his trauma didn't affect him in the same way
they'd affect a human.

######

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Prembone wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:22:16 GMT, Tom Flanigan <tomflanigan@home.com>
> wrote:
> 
> >Usually I just lurk, but....
> 
> That's all right.  I'll argue with anyone. ;-)
> 
> >> It doesn't matter if it fits "my conception" or "Tolkien's
> >> conception."
> >
> >Difference between you and Tolkein: Tolkein wrote The LotR, and anything he
> >wrote is _correct_ in LotR, even if in the real world it isn't.
> 
> I don't accept that.  It is possible for an author to be wrong about
> something he wrote, even regarding one of his own creations.

Inconsistent, yes, but wrong? How?! If I write "If A implies B, and B
implies C, then C implies A." It's perfectly valid to point out I've not
applied the rules of logic correctly. However, you can't legitimately
object that "A does not imply B".

Similarly, if Tolkien defines a world where human nature is the way he
thought it was, you can argue that that's not the way human nature is in
the real world, but you can't say he was wrong about the nature of the
beings he was writing about.

...
> Hobbits **were** human beings.  Tolkien not only implied this, but
> explicitly stated so at one point, in a footnote to a letter.  People
> seem to lose sight of this little but important fact.

Yes, but they differed in many ways from the rest of us, including their
greater ability to resist domination. This is no different from the fact
that those people with black skins have a better ability to resist
damage from sunlight than people like me with lighter skins. A white
person who'd never seen or even known about blacks would understandably
over-estimate the liklihood of one getting skin cancer, and would
understandably under-estimate the severity of damage implied by the fact
that a skin cancer has occured. I think you've made the latter mistake
with respect to Frodo.

...
> > If Tolkein thought x, then x is true...even if, in the real world,
> >it isn't.
> 
> No, it's not.  If Tolkien thought x, but x is not true, then Tolkien
> built on a false premise, and so Tolkien's thought-x is not true.  It
> is possible for Tolkien to have been wrong about his own creations.

How? If he postulated x as part of his creation, you're talking about
something other than his creation when you say 'not x'. It's just like
when I say "For the complex number z, z*z=-2". You can object that
there's no real number that has that property, but I wasn't talking
about real numbers, I was talking about complex ones.

> But beyond that, remains a more fundamental question:  WAS Tolkien
> really saying that Frodo **had** to go to Eressea?  Was he **in fact**
> claiming that Frodo absolutely could not stay in Middle-earth, or was
> he simply depicting that Frodo was given the choice to leave and that
> this is what Frodo **did**?  In other words, is Tolkien presenting us
> with an "ought" or simply an "is"?
> 
> If the latter, then it is possible to say that Frodo was wrong without
> implying that Tolkien was wrong.  Just a thought.

Possible, but implausible. There's nothing in the way Tolkien wrote it
to imply that he felt it was a bad decision; quite the contrary.

######

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Mark Wells wrote:
...
> other myths.  His myths are free to contradict other myths about the
> nature of mythical creatures, but they're not free to contradict
> reality on the nature of real creatures.

Why not? This isn't science fiction, where there's a requirement of
consistency with the real world. This is fantasy, where the author is
free to make whatever rules he likes, and the only legitimate grounds
for external judgement of those rules are aesthetic.

...
> Tolkien said that Middle-earth is *not* another world.  It's our
> world.  It's just at a period in our world's history in which the
> world is still full of Elves and Dwarves and walking trees and magic
> rings.  What's that?  That period of our history never happened?  Then
> we'll *imagine* that it happened.  That doesn't mean it's not our
> world.

It's an alternate history for our world, as imagined by Tolkien. There
is no possibility at all for the history Tolkien describes to be
consistent with the geology of the our world - the changes he describes
would have required/released so much energy so rapidly that 20,000 years
later the volcanoes would still be keeping the world's sky dark with
ash. Would you consider that a legitimate grounds for criticising his
story?

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet                                    
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First                                        
Date: 27 Jul 1999 22:04:13 +0200                                         
Organization: My own Private Self
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mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes:                              
>
> On 26 Jul 1999 16:27:53 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
> wrote:
> 
> >He _definitely_ portrayed his creations the way he _wanted_ them to
> >be. There is no proof whatsoever that ME creatures were intended to
> >be _exactly_ like real earth (RE) creatures.
> >
> >Note that ME dwarves/khazad were explicitely claimed to not be RE
> >folklore dwarfs. And ME elves/quendi are definitely not RE elves/faries.
> 
> That's because, as far as anyone knows, there *are* no RE elves or
> dwarfs.  They're mythical.  So it's fine for Tolkien to invent his own
> myths about Elves and Dwarves that aren't consistent with some of the
> other myths.                                    

It is fine for him to invent deviating ones (particularly as he remarks
that they are different). But equally he can invent deviating humans
(and has in hobbits, which are not present in RE). So assuming his
humans to be identical is still not proven, and actually disproven for
hobbits (got an archeological find of an hobbit skeleton somewhere?).


>  His myths are free to contradict other myths about the           
> nature of mythical creatures, but they're not free to contradict
> reality on the nature of real creatures.

Myths are allowed to contradict anything, other myths or reality. They
are after all fictive.


> >(which is no doubt similar to JRRTs _idealised_ idea of the world he
>
> Tolkien said that Middle-earth is *not* another world.  It's our   
> world.

Contradicting his own claim further down, [continue at (*)]


> What's that?  That period of our history never happened?  Then
> we'll *imagine* that it happened.  That doesn't mean it's not our      

Well that is already a contradiction. Our world is the real one, per
definition of the term "real". Any imagined (or as I called it          
idealised) world is per definition not any more ours, but annother.     


> G: I thought that conceivably Midgard might be Middle-earth or have
> some connection?                                    

Midgard: some northern language (Danish?) for middle earth. The name 
for the middle one of the 9 worlds in norse mythology, there were the    
mortals lived. I regard this one as a nice in-joke for the knowledgable.


> T: Oh yes, they're the same word. Most people have made this mistake  
>
> G: It seemed to me that Middle-earth was in a sense as you say this        
> world we live in but at a different era.                                   
        
Different era would be in the past, as ME definitely is not. So G errs
and is corrected rightly by T.            


> T: No ... at a different stage of imagination, yes. ... Well of course

(*) that it is "a different stage of imagination", which would make it
"not the real one", so that would make in an different world.


> >The same as he also defined such "non existant" things as:
> >
> >- fire dragons like Smaug                                        
> >- giant Spiders like Shelob                                             
> >- elves, drarves, hobbits, ents, orcs, trolls
> >- Eru, valar and maiar (Istari, Balrog, Sauron)                  
> >- immortals of any type (Eru, valar, maiar, elves)                   
> 
> The rest of the interview                       
> (http://village.vossnet.co.uk/h/hpttrsn/jrrt_int.htm) shows that
> Tolkien would undoubtedly disagree with your claim that Eru doesn't  
> exist.                                                            

He would. That does not surprise me. After all Eru is patterned after
the God of the christians, which Tolkien believed in. But [cont (*)] 


>  So would I, for that matter.  Let's leave your religious         
> opinions out of this.                                           

For sake of avoiding an theological discussion, feel free to drop Eru
from the list.                                                        

(*) there still remains a lot to prove that ME is not RE - neither as
it is today or ever was (according to present or Tolkiens knowledge).

One could even add to my list:

- the entire geography of ME
- processing of iron for over 7000 years (jewel wars + SA + TA) before FA
- human kingss descendant from elves (mixed species procreating)
- ibid with special healing abilities (Aragorns effects on athelas power)


> >Just a few questions to opne eyes: Is the ME world based on atoms? If 
> >so how do many af those above things happen? Tolkien says that Ea was
> >"woven by the songs of the Ainur". That does not sound like atoms, and
> >I am sure atoms were known in his time and most likely also to Tolkien.
>
> If you like, you can dig through O. Sharp's web site
> (http://www.speakeasy.org/~ohh) for the quantum-mechanical
> interpretation of the Ainulindale,                                 

Now that promises to be an interesting read. Off into my
links-to-visit list with it.


> but as Tolkien said in the
> interview, this is our world at a different stage of imagination.
> It's the world as it would appear to someone who didn't know about
> atoms.

And such an imaginary variation of the world, without atoms, and so most
likely is also without cells/nerves/etc will likely not have any PTSD
either. Which was the point I was making with my previous post.


> >Error. What counts is whether the ME beings fit Tolkiens conception of
> >what ME is like. And that Frodo does do, completely, nowhere his
> >behaviour contradicts the physics of ME (so far we can deduce it).
>
> He doesn't contradict the physics of our world either.  In fact, for
> the most part, he behaves exactly like a human should.  If he's not
> human, he sure acts like one. So there's no reason to think the
> long-term effects of his trauma didn't affect him in the same way
> they'd affect a human.

He definitely is similar to an human. But not being of atoms (being
in an non-atomic world) certainly makes him fundamentally non-identical
to an RE human. And so the claim, that he will react identical, right
down to developing PTSD, is nowhere near provable.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it

######

From: Jereeza <mia@frodo.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:10:58 +0200
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Idril Celebrindal wrote:

> > a) Frodo, as the "hero",
> <snip>
>
> I hope I'm not starting a new thread here, but in my opinion Frodod
> *wasn't* the hero. He didn't manage to destroy the ring, he got seduced
> by the dark side in the end and hadn't it been for Gollum the ring
> would never have been destroyed.

Don't start. Please, don't start. And remember this sentence: "I got the
hero in such a fix..." :P

--
Jereeza the Tilde Happy Pearl of the Orient

"At the moment it's just a Notion, but with a bit
of backing I think I could turn it into a Concept,
and then an Idea."     - Woody Allen, 'Annie Hall'

ps. remove dessin when replying

######

From: Idril Celebrindal <idril@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:42:30 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
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In article <379c76a3.664158@news.prosurfr.com>,
  jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) wrote:
> prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) wrote, in part:
>
> >Despite the fact that Frodo was the Ring-bearer, and presumably in
the
> >worst shape, had endured the worst of the Quest, etc., in Ithilien
> >Frodo awoke before Sam did,

Yes, Fordo woke before Sam, but didn't he "nod off again" waiting for S
to wake up? and so did sleep longer than Sam, if only for a little time.

Frodo had just lost a burden wich he had carried for some time, and
probably gotten used to, so wouldnt it feel awkward not having that
scaring thing around your neck? A little like sleeping without your
teddy, when your not used to doing so.

I know, I know, a teddy has NOTHING to with a ring, but I couldn't
think of anything else, for the moment.

> I think, therefore, we can't conclude that Frodo was less severely
> taxed; other explanations must be searched for.

In any way, Sam probably had a more jolly dream, since Frodo wasn't
able to feel anything becouse of the ring. As noticed earlier in this
discussion, it'd take time for Frodo to heal, and it'd therefore take
time for him, to recover, and to be able to sleep well.

but as noted abowe Frodo nodded off again, and he was probably just
waiting for the big feast to start - like the night before your bithday
- so why not see if Sam was awake?

> a) Frodo, as the "hero",
<snip>

I hope I'm not starting a new thread here, but in my opinion Frodod
*wasn't* the hero. He didn't manage to destroy the ring, he got seduced
by the dark side in the end and hadn't it been for Gollum the ring
would never have been destroyed.





Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

######

From: azazoth@access2.mountain.net (Marie Barnett)
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Mark Wells (mark@pc-intouch.com) wrote:
: On 26 Jul 1999 16:27:53 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
: wrote:

: >Nope. The alternative reality is providing a setting to tell an story     
: >which has implications for RE humans. A message from an other world           
: >(which is no doubt similar to JRRTs _idealised_ idea of the world he
: >comes from).                                                           

: Tolkien said that Middle-earth is *not* another world.  It's our
: world.  It's just at a period in our world's history in which the
: world is still full of Elves and Dwarves and walking trees and magic
: rings.  What's that?  That period of our history never happened?  Then
: we'll *imagine* that it happened.  That doesn't mean it's not our
: world.

It may be our world, but it is in the very distant past.  Maybe Eru
changed the humans after all 'magic' left the world.


: >The same as he also defined such "non existant" things as:        
: >
: >- fire dragons like Smaug
: >- giant Spiders like Shelob
: >- elves, drarves, hobbits, ents, orcs, trolls                         
: >- Eru, valar and maiar (Istari, Balrog, Sauron)                     
: >- immortals of any type (Eru, valar, maiar, elves)

: The rest of the interview
: (http://village.vossnet.co.uk/h/hpttrsn/jrrt_int.htm) shows that
: Tolkien would undoubtedly disagree with your claim that Eru doesn't
: exist.  So would I, for that matter.  Let's leave your religious
: opinions out of this.

A quick search of this page reveals no mention of Eru.  And since Tolkien
was a devout christian, I doubt that he would have held beliefs in his own
creation of Eru.  Maybe(probably) Eru is drawn from Tolkien's conception
of the Christian God, but that doesn't make Tolkien a believer in Eru.


: >Error. What counts is whether the ME beings fit Tolkiens conception of
: >what ME is like. And that Frodo does do, completely, nowhere his
: >behaviour contradicts the physics of ME (so far we can deduce it).

: He doesn't contradict the physics of our world either.  In fact, for
: the most part, he behaves exactly like a human should.  If he's not
: human, he sure acts like one.  So there's no reason to think the
: long-term effects of his trauma didn't affect him in the same way
: they'd affect a human.

Well, there are a few reasons to think that his trauma might affect him
differently than the trauma we have scientifically researched.  First off,
I don't believe that we have any studies pertaining to the effects on
humans of trauma relating to longterm posession of artifacts created by
the dark lord and embodying his will and desire to corrupt the will of
others(not to mention the effects of sudden destruction of such an
artifact).  Nor do we have any studies on the effects of Morgul blades.
So until one of us gets stabbed by a Nazgul or carries around the Ring for
a while, I don't think we can make accurate conclusions about the effects
the trauma of those events might have.

######

From: Jereeza <mia@frodo.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 02:00:12 +0200
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Mike Kew wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Jereeza <mia@frodo.net> wrote
> >Idril Celebrindal wrote:
> >> I hope I'm not starting a new thread here, but in my opinion Frodod
> >> *wasn't* the hero. He didn't manage to destroy the ring, he got seduced
> >> by the dark side in the end and hadn't it been for Gollum the ring
> >> would never have been destroyed.
> >
> >Don't start. Please, don't start.
>
> Ooh, go on.  It's always nice to see an old favourite back...

Thank you, Mike. I've been busy as hell lately, but it's starting to clear up,
so to say - thx for your letter, btw :)

>
>
> Does someone have to succeed in order to be a hero?

I say, no, because there's the whole heroic odyssey to make... :)There'll be
more from me on this subject.

Defending the honour of Frodo till I die...

--
Jereeza the Tilde Happy Pearl of the Orient

"At the moment it's just a Notion, but with a bit
of backing I think I could turn it into a Concept,
and then an Idea."     - Woody Allen, 'Annie Hall'

ps. remove dessin when replying

######

From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:01:52 GMT
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prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) wrote, in part:

>I would disagree with this contention.  Since "all that was wrought by
>the Ring" was fading, I think that the Ring itself ceased to rule
>Frodo once it was destroyed,

Oh, yes, I agree with that. But Frodo remained "stretched thin" -
something of his substance would always be missing. In *that* sense he
continued to be affected by the Ring.

And while Sam could return to a normal life, after the passage of
decades, even he would eventually come to feel aftereffects of the
Ring - at least Gandalf seemed to imply that.

John Savard ( teneerf<- )
http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm

######

From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:03:37 GMT
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Idril Celebrindal <idril@my-deja.com> wrote, in part:

>I hope I'm not starting a new thread here, but in my opinion Frodod
>*wasn't* the hero. He didn't manage to destroy the ring, he got seduced
>by the dark side in the end and hadn't it been for Gollum the ring
>would never have been destroyed.

Ah, but he was a hero to get as far as he did.

Think Gideon.

John Savard ( teneerf<- )
http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm

######

From: Mike Kew <Brandybuck@kew1.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:45:54 +0100
Organization: Don't be so daft
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On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Jereeza <mia@frodo.net> wrote
>Idril Celebrindal wrote:
>> I hope I'm not starting a new thread here, but in my opinion Frodod
>> *wasn't* the hero. He didn't manage to destroy the ring, he got seduced
>> by the dark side in the end and hadn't it been for Gollum the ring
>> would never have been destroyed.
>
>Don't start. Please, don't start. 

Ooh, go on.  It's always nice to see an old favourite back...

Does someone have to succeed in order to be a hero?

-- 
Mike Kew

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy
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On 27 Jul 1999 08:53:41 -0400, azazoth@access2.mountain.net (Marie
Barnett) wrote:

>: The rest of the interview
>: (http://village.vossnet.co.uk/h/hpttrsn/jrrt_int.htm) shows that
>: Tolkien would undoubtedly disagree with your claim that Eru doesn't
>: exist.  So would I, for that matter.  Let's leave your religious
>: opinions out of this.
>
>A quick search of this page reveals no mention of Eru.  And since Tolkien

From the same interview:

G: Where is God in The Lord of the Rings? 

T: He's mentioned once or twice. 

G: Is he the One?... 

T: The One, yes. 

No mention of Eru, huh?

>was a devout christian, I doubt that he would have held beliefs in his own
>creation of Eru.  Maybe(probably) Eru is drawn from Tolkien's conception
>of the Christian God, but that doesn't make Tolkien a believer in Eru.

Eru is obviously drawn from Tolkien's own belief in God.  This makes
sense--if God is present in our world, and he transcends differences
in time and space, why not differences in, as Tolkien put it, "stages
of imagination"?  The events of Tolkien's world occur during an
imagined period of history, but God is still God.

>Well, there are a few reasons to think that his trauma might affect him
>differently than the trauma we have scientifically researched.  First off,
>I don't believe that we have any studies pertaining to the effects on
>humans of trauma relating to longterm posession of artifacts created by
>the dark lord and embodying his will and desire to corrupt the will of
>others(not to mention the effects of sudden destruction of such an

How does the Ring corrupt people?  It's really pretty simple.  It
offers them power, and they learn to abuse it.  It's not the Ring as
such that corrupts; any instrument of absolute power corrupts.  This
is Acton's Law taken to its logical conclusion.

>artifact).  Nor do we have any studies on the effects of Morgul blades.
>So until one of us gets stabbed by a Nazgul or carries around the Ring for
>a while, I don't think we can make accurate conclusions about the effects
>the trauma of those events might have.

######

From: finduilas@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 07:10:11 GMT
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In article <xQJR6FACw2n3Ew7k@kew1.demon.co.uk>,
  Mike Kew <Brandybuck@kew1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Does someone have to succeed in order to be a hero?

Actually, in Tolkien's universe they have to. It's either succeed or
perish - but I think the question ought to be: Is Frodo a hero?

And in order to come back to his waking up first: It's quite likely
that he got more athelas than Sam did - the King healed them both,
remember? Maybe he ran out of energy - or he simply felt that the upper
classes (i.e. Frodo) were more important than the lower (i.e. Sam).

I blame it all on Elessar.

Finduilas


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
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######

From: azazoth@access2.mountain.net (Marie Barnett)
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Mark Wells (mark@pc-intouch.com) wrote:
: How does the Ring corrupt people?  It's really pretty simple.  It
: offers them power, and they learn to abuse it.  It's not the Ring as
: such that corrupts; any instrument of absolute power corrupts.  This
: is Acton's Law taken to its logical conclusion.

I don't know quite how the ring corrupts; certainly the offer of power is
part of it, but not all.  The ring is intelligent, it is malignant, we
have no experience with things like this, and no law or study we can come
up with can parallel the psychological effects of such an item.   

######

From: RLV <rlv6@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:55:17 GMT
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In article <379E480C.1954E7DB@frodo.net>,
  mia@dessin.beaux-arts.com wrote:
> Mike Kew wrote:
> > On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Jereeza <mia@frodo.net> wrote
> > >Idril Celebrindal wrote:
> > >> I hope I'm not starting a new thread here, but in my opinion
Frodod
> > >> *wasn't* the hero. He didn't manage to destroy the ring, he got
seduced
> > >> by the dark side in the end and hadn't it been for Gollum the
ring
> > >> would never have been destroyed.
> > >
> > >Don't start. Please, don't start.
> >
> > Ooh, go on.  It's always nice to see an old favourite back...
>
> Thank you, Mike. I've been busy as hell lately, but it's starting to
clear up,
> so to say

Good to hear. I have missed you. ;-)

>- thx for your letter, btw :)

Ooops! Mine soon, promise :-(


> > Does someone have to succeed in order to be a hero?
>
> I say, no, because there's the whole heroic odyssey to make... :)
There'll be
> more from me on this subject.
>
> Defending the honour of Frodo till I die...

Go at them Jereeza! If this subject rekindles, count on me backing you.


        R.L.V.
        ~~#~~~
  "Call me mead-tongue"


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

######

From: mysterious@seattleweekly.fakeaddress.com (Mysterious Lurking SW Editor)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 07:10:11 GMT, finduilas@my-deja.com wrote:

>And in order to come back to his waking up first: It's quite likely
>that he got more athelas than Sam did - the King healed them both,
>remember? Maybe he ran out of energy - or he simply felt that the upper
>classes (i.e. Frodo) were more important than the lower (i.e. Sam).
>
>I blame it all on Elessar.

EEP! How 'bout this: Frodo and Sam had been through roughly the same
ordeal. In addition to their shared physical debilitation (starving,
sleeplessness, dehydration, etc.), Frodo carried the Ring, an agent of
obviously substantial but in the end unknon effect. Sam, OTOH, had
given Frodo most of the food and water. He had also sustained a
WHACKING GREAT KNOCK ON THE HEAD just before the end. Can we chalk
those few hours of sleep up to a concussion, something we know to lead
to such things?
  

Occam's Razor in hand --
AG. 

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: 30 Jul 1999 01:55:45 +0200
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mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes:
>
> On 27 Jul 1999 08:53:41 -0400, azazoth@access2.mountain.net (Marie
> Barnett) wrote:
>
> >Well, there are a few reasons to think that his trauma might affect him
> >differently than the trauma we have scientifically researched.  First off,
>
> How does the Ring corrupt people?  It's really pretty simple. It
> offers them power, and they learn to abuse it.  It's not the Ring as
> such that corrupts; any instrument of absolute power corrupts.  This
> is Acton's Law taken to its logical conclusion.

Now that is a simplistic answer if there ever was one!


We have a few proofs that there is a lot more to this ring than just
giving power to do things and corrupting ba it:

- the ring has an will of its own (or of Sauron), as documented in the
Gladden Fields desaster (Silm). And as suspected in its finding Bilbo.

- even the _lot_ less powerfull 9 rings did a lot more than just give
their wearers power that corrupted them: such things as making then
into wraiths, making fade to spirits.

- the ring is next to indestructible, that is why it had to go to
Orodruin.

- additionally we should not forget that Frodo did not use the ring to
wield power, so he could not have been corrupted if that were the only
corrupting effect. So this ring must have more effects than this.


-> So we can conclude: This is a magical ring, not just simple earthly
power. This ring needs the entire magical/spiritual world behind ME to
work. So its effects are also of equally foreign type. So they are not
PTSD, no matter what some here want to believe. (Does magic threaten
some of their beliefs?)


> >artifact).  Nor do we have any studies on the effects of Morgul blades.

Well we do know at least one effect: they make their victims fade
into the world of spirits. Frodo had already started fading when he
arrived at Riveldell.


> >So until one of us gets stabbed by a Nazgul or carries around the Ring for
> >a while, I don't think we can make accurate conclusions about the effects
> >the trauma of those events might have.

We can definitely assume that the effects are more than just present day
psychology knows about.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: 30 Jul 1999 02:13:10 +0200
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Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove> writes:
>
> mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes:
> >
> > >Just a few questions to opne eyes: Is the ME world based on atoms? If
> > >so how do many af those above things happen? Tolkien says that Ea was
> > >"woven by the songs of the Ainur". That does not sound like atoms, and
> > >I am sure atoms were known in his time and most likely also to Tolkien.
> >
> > If you like, you can dig through O. Sharp's web site
> > (http://www.speakeasy.org/~ohh) for the quantum-mechanical
> > interpretation of the Ainulindale,
>
> Now that promises to be an interesting read. Off into my
> links-to-visit list with it.

Well, that went wrong.

The only thing I found there in 10 minutes of search were:

The Tolkien Sarcasm Page and the Tolkien Crapckpot Page. While both
were funny, neither had anything about Quantum or Ainulindale in it.

Could you provide an full URL to the page you were thinking of?


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it

######

From: Jereeza <mia@frodo.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:45:20 +0200
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Mysterious Lurking SW Editor wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 07:10:11 GMT, finduilas@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >And in order to come back to his waking up first: It's quite likely
> >that he got more athelas than Sam did - the King healed them both,
> >remember? Maybe he ran out of energy - or he simply felt that the upper
> >classes (i.e. Frodo) were more important than the lower (i.e. Sam).
> >
> >I blame it all on Elessar.
>
> EEP! How 'bout this: Frodo and Sam had been through roughly the same
> ordeal. In addition to their shared physical debilitation (starving,
> sleeplessness, dehydration, etc.), Frodo carried the Ring, an agent of
> obviously substantial but in the end unknon effect. Sam, OTOH, had
> given Frodo most of the food and water. He had also sustained a
> WHACKING GREAT KNOCK ON THE HEAD just before the end. Can we chalk
> those few hours of sleep up to a concussion, something we know to lead
> to such things?

You're forgetting the loss of blood Frodo suffered.

--
Jereeza the Tilde Happy Pearl of the Orient

"At the moment it's just a Notion, but with a bit
of backing I think I could turn it into a Concept,
and then an Idea."     - Woody Allen, 'Annie Hall'

ps. remove dessin when replying

######

From: Flame of the West <jsolinas@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:16:09 -0400
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Neil Franklin wrote:

> -> So we can conclude: This is a magical ring, not just simple earthly
> power. This ring needs the entire magical/spiritual world behind ME to
> work. So its effects are also of equally foreign type. So they are not
> PTSD, no matter what some here want to believe. (Does magic threaten
> some of their beliefs?)

Well, IIRC, the number one PTSD fan has a sig file quoting the "star
goddess", which proves nothing but sounds kind of magickal to me.
BTW, where has she been lately (Prembone, not the Star Goddess)?

-- FotW

######

From: Mike Kew <Brandybuck@kew1.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:46:07 +0100
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On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Marie Barnett <azazoth@access2.mountain.net> wrote
>Mark Wells (mark@pc-intouch.com) wrote:
>: How does the Ring corrupt people?  It's really pretty simple.  It
>: offers them power, and they learn to abuse it.  It's not the Ring as
>: such that corrupts; any instrument of absolute power corrupts.  This
>: is Acton's Law taken to its logical conclusion.
>
>I don't know quite how the ring corrupts; certainly the offer of power is
>part of it, but not all.  The ring is intelligent, it is malignant, we
>have no experience with things like this, and no law or study we can come
>up with can parallel the psychological effects of such an item. 

I think the answer is in the *sort* of power it gives.  To Gollum, it
gives the power to sneak, lie, cheat, steal.  To Sam, it offers the
power to rule.  Galadriel says "All shall love me and despair!"

If rulership is by fear and dominion and despair, then the ruler *is*
evil, whatever they are trying to do.  If that is the sort of power that
the Ring gives, then that will be how it corrupts the user.

-- 
Mike Kew

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On 30 Jul 1999 01:55:45 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:

>mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes:

>> How does the Ring corrupt people?  It's really pretty simple. It
>> offers them power, and they learn to abuse it.  It's not the Ring as
>> such that corrupts; any instrument of absolute power corrupts.  This
>> is Acton's Law taken to its logical conclusion.
>
>Now that is a simplistic answer if there ever was one!
>
>
>We have a few proofs that there is a lot more to this ring than just
>giving power to do things and corrupting ba it:
>
>- the ring has an will of its own (or of Sauron), as documented in the
>Gladden Fields desaster (Silm). And as suspected in its finding Bilbo.

That's not relevant to how it corrupts people.

>- even the _lot_ less powerfull 9 rings did a lot more than just give
>their wearers power that corrupted them: such things as making then
>into wraiths, making fade to spirits.

It keeps them from dying by stretching their natural lifespan over
thousands of years.  (This is an extension of what the
Gwaith-i-Mirdain were trying to do by making the Rings.)  See below.

>- the ring is next to indestructible, that is why it had to go to
>Orodruin.

Like the immortality issue, the indestructibility of the Ring
contributes to its promise of absolute power.  The wielder of the Ring
can't get away from the temptation to use its power, either by death
or by destroying the Ring.

To some extent, this is a technique that strips away all the side
issues (like how the instrument of power could be destroyed) that
detract from the simple moral problem of what to do with absolute
power.

>- additionally we should not forget that Frodo did not use the ring to
>wield power, so he could not have been corrupted if that were the only
>corrupting effect. So this ring must have more effects than this.

It was the *temptation* to use its power that corrupted him.

>-> So we can conclude: This is a magical ring, not just simple earthly
>power. This ring needs the entire magical/spiritual world behind ME to
>work. So its effects are also of equally foreign type. So they are not
>PTSD, no matter what some here want to believe. (Does magic threaten

The effects of the Ring aren't PTSD, they're Acton's Law.

And yes, it's a magic ring.  What I'm saying is that its victims
aren't corrupted by some insidious magical influence on their minds.
They're corrupted by the promise of power.

>Well we do know at least one effect: they make their victims fade
>into the world of spirits. Frodo had already started fading when he
>arrived at Riveldell.

Yes, that's a consequence of the time-slowing effect.

######

From: Idril Celebrindal <idril@my-deja.com>
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Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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> EEP! How 'bout this: Frodo and Sam had been through roughly the same
> ordeal. In addition to their shared physical debilitation (starving,
> sleeplessness, dehydration, etc.), Frodo carried the Ring, an agent of
> obviously substantial but in the end unknon effect. Sam, OTOH, had
> given Frodo most of the food and water. He had also sustained a
> WHACKING GREAT KNOCK ON THE HEAD just before the end. Can we chalk
> those few hours of sleep up to a concussion, something we know to lead
> to such things?

Few hours?!? They slept for 14 days!




Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

######

From: herself@agunn.spam-me-not.com (Angela Gunn)
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Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:09:45 GMT, Idril Celebrindal
<idril@my-deja.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>> EEP! How 'bout this: Frodo and Sam had been through roughly the same
>> ordeal. In addition to their shared physical debilitation (starving,
>> sleeplessness, dehydration, etc.), Frodo carried the Ring, an agent of
>> obviously substantial but in the end unknon effect. Sam, OTOH, had
>> given Frodo most of the food and water. He had also sustained a
>> WHACKING GREAT KNOCK ON THE HEAD just before the end. Can we chalk
>> those few hours of sleep up to a concussion, something we know to lead
>> to such things?
>
>Few hours?!? They slept for 14 days!

Few hours between when Frodo woke up and when Sam woke up -- hence the
original thread title. Frodo woke first and Sam woke a few hours
later. (Or, if you prefer, "I was awake early this morning, and now it
must be nearly noon.")

(And while I'm here, thanks Jereeza etc. for not pointing out that
embarrassing "mysterious" slip-up from yesterday! As a friend of mine
says, must be Mercury retrograde...)

AG
not particularly mysterious today.

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: 30 Jul 1999 22:01:04 +0200
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mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes:
>
> On 30 Jul 1999 01:55:45 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
> wrote:
>
> >mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes:
>
> >> How does the Ring corrupt people?  It's really pretty simple. It
> >> offers them power, and they learn to abuse it.  It's not the Ring as
> >
> >Now that is a simplistic answer if there ever was one!


> >- the ring has an will of its own (or of Sauron), as documented in the
> >Gladden Fields desaster (Silm). And as suspected in its finding Bilbo.
>
> That's not relevant to how it corrupts people.

It is though relevant to show, that it has an will of its own, to
act. See below (*), for why that will is relevant.


> detract from the simple moral problem of what to do with absolute
> power.

Avoid it. As everyone who has attempted it has failed.

One should only ever do things one can have under control. So one
should never have (or at least use) power that outstrips ones ability
to see what one is doing (and correct or abort use of if one detects
bad consequences).


> >- additionally we should not forget that Frodo did not use the ring to
> >wield power, so he could not have been corrupted if that were the only
> >corrupting effect. So this ring must have more effects than this.
>
> It was the *temptation* to use its power that corrupted him.

And Smeagol? He murdered his friend to get it - without any knowledge
of what this ring is, or what it could do. So he could not have been
tempted by desire to get it to use it.

That gives good evidence that the ring does bend others thoughts.

And as shown in (*) it does heve a will, which together with its
ability to bend others thoughts, makes it an active opponent, seeking
to corrupt, not just passively offering power and waiting for corruption.


> >-> So we can conclude: This is a magical ring, not just simple earthly
> >power. This ring needs the entire magical/spiritual world behind ME to
> >work. So its effects are also of equally foreign type. So they are not
> >PTSD, no matter what some here want to believe. (Does magic threaten
>
> The effects of the Ring aren't PTSD, they're Acton's Law.

Oops. I mistook you to be adding to the PTSD thread.


> And yes, it's a magic ring.  What I'm saying is that its victims
> aren't corrupted by some insidious magical influence on their minds.
> They're corrupted by the promise of power.

And I think there is definitely an will armed with magic power at
work. The promise (or even experience) of power will help it
corrupt. But it has its own abilities in the first place.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it

######

From: azazoth@access2.mountain.net (Marie Barnett)
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Neil Franklin (neil@franklin.ch.remove) wrote:

: > >artifact).  Nor do we have any studies on the effects of Morgul blades.

: Well we do know at least one effect: they make their victims fade
: into the world of spirits. Frodo had already started fading when he
: arrived at Riveldell.

Yes, but this comes from the narrative legend, I don't think it has a
great scientific basis. :)

: > >So until one of us gets stabbed by a Nazgul or carries around the Ring for
: > >a while, I don't think we can make accurate conclusions about the effects
: > >the trauma of those events might have.

: We can definitely assume that the effects are more than just present day
: psychology knows about.


Hmm... I don't think that statement is quite true.  The most we can say, I
think, is that the effects could be(or are even likely to be) outside of
the effects known about in present day psychology, but the effects _could_
be quite close to(or even exactly) effects known in psychology today.

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
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On 30 Jul 1999 22:01:04 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:

>> >- the ring has an will of its own (or of Sauron), as documented in the
>> >Gladden Fields desaster (Silm). And as suspected in its finding Bilbo.
>>
>> That's not relevant to how it corrupts people.
>
>It is though relevant to show, that it has an will of its own, to
>act. See below (*), for why that will is relevant.

The only action of the Ring that's relevant to this is its tendency to
tempt people to use its power.

>> detract from the simple moral problem of what to do with absolute
>> power.
>
>Avoid it. As everyone who has attempted it has failed.
>
>One should only ever do things one can have under control. So one
>should never have (or at least use) power that outstrips ones ability
>to see what one is doing (and correct or abort use of if one detects
>bad consequences).

That's the point.  *Nobody* has the self-control to avoid abusing that
kind of power.  Ultimately, the only thing we can do to keep it from
being abused is to destroy it.

>> It was the *temptation* to use its power that corrupted him.
>
>And Smeagol? He murdered his friend to get it - without any knowledge
>of what this ring is, or what it could do. So he could not have been
>tempted by desire to get it to use it.
>
>That gives good evidence that the ring does bend others thoughts.

The only influence of the Ring on anyone's thoughts is offering them
its power.  Smeagol wasn't sophisticated enough to understand this,
but the primitive appeal of raw power got to him anyway.

>And as shown in (*) it does heve a will, which together with its
>ability to bend others thoughts, makes it an active opponent, seeking
>to corrupt, not just passively offering power and waiting for corruption.

No, it *actively* offers power, but it offers it to everyone equally.

>> The effects of the Ring aren't PTSD, they're Acton's Law.
>
>Oops. I mistook you to be adding to the PTSD thread.

I do think Frodo was suffering from some kind of PTSD as a result of
his quest, but the Ring had a different effect on him.

######

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Neil Franklin wrote:
> 
> mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes:
...
> > detract from the simple moral problem of what to do with absolute
> > power.
> 
> Avoid it. As everyone who has attempted it has failed.
> 
> One should only ever do things one can have under control. So one
> should never have (or at least use) power that outstrips ones ability
> to see what one is doing (and correct or abort use of if one detects
> bad consequences).

That sounds like a plausible criterion, but I don't think it's the right
one. There are two reasons: first of all, being able to see what you're
doing isn't an all-or-nothing effect, it's a continuum. Even at the
smallest level, we can't see all the consequences of even our simplest
decisions. So where do you put the dividing line? It's a judgement call,
and like all such, susceptible to bias.

Secondly, not using a power is a choice, co-equal with using it. You're
just as responsible for passively failing to use your power to save a
group of people from dying, as you would be if you actively used the
power to kill them.

Using a power can be bad because you can't control it well enough;
however, the good you can do by using it can be more important than the
damage that will result from your poor control.

And therein lies the trap that leads good intentions into doing evil.

######

From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Frodo Woke First
Date: 5 Aug 1999 06:18:22 GMT
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In a previous article, finduilas@my-deja.com () says:

>And in order to come back to his waking up first: It's quite likely
>that he got more athelas than Sam did - the King healed them both,
>remember? Maybe he ran out of energy - or he simply felt that the upper
>classes (i.e. Frodo) were more important than the lower (i.e. Sam).

I rather doubt this to be the case.  I think by the end of the Quest
and the WOTR, Aragorn would have gone thru as much Hell to save Sam 
as he would have for Frodo, Gimli, Legolas, Merry, Pippen, Gandalf 
if necessary, or even Boromir had he survived.

An avionics navigation specialist who had worked for Nasa told me one
time "When you are shooting from the moon, missing the target by only 
a few miles can be considered a direct hit."  Considering the length 
of their sleep, I think it was even money which one would wake first.
And who's to say that Sam, deep in the pre-writing in Tolkien's 
imagination, didn't stir and open an eye early that morning, then go 
back to sleep.
--