From: robfarm1@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 23:41:34 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.25.98.2 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Jul 08 23:41:34 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.04 (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x27.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 208.25.98.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail I'm rereading LotR for the umpteenth time, and we're just now leaving Lothlorien. And again I'm struck by what a total non-entity Celeborn is. Here he's been described by Galadriel as "the wisest of the Elves of Middle-Earth", called Celeborn the Wise, and supposedly has been around since the days of dawn. But when the Eight arrive at Lorien, all he does is welcome them, have Frodo sit at his side, try to pick a fight with Gimli, then clam up while Galadriel spanks him verbally. She then takes over the show, claims responsibility for calling the White Council together in the first place, and essentially runs the show for the rest of their stay. Then when they're leaving, all Celeborn the Wise can muster is "See ya! You need boats, the river has 2 sides, figure it out for yerselves!" It's been a looooong while since I read any of the later tomes, and don't remember Celeborn figuring in them, either. Did the early departure of his daughter to Eressea take the life out of him? Has he been henpecked into complete apathy? Is he clinically depressed? Other Elf-Lords in the book with much less exposure are much more vibrant than he--Glorfindel, Gildor, even the common Elves in Lorien! What's the deal with Celeborn? -- Lorri Scratchbottom Shires Horses, not retirement homes for hobbits with skin conditions http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/4242/ Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Message-ID: <3785b129.5345178@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-37.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 23 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:28:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 931508683 207.212.198.18 (Fri, 09 Jul 1999 01:24:43 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 01:24:43 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!hiq.pc-intouch.com!1-37.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Thu, 08 Jul 1999 23:41:34 GMT, robfarm1@my-deja.com wrote: >It's been a looooong while since I read any of the later tomes, and >don't remember Celeborn figuring in them, either. Did the early >departure of his daughter to Eressea take the life out of him? Has he >been henpecked into complete apathy? Is he clinically depressed? Other >Elf-Lords in the book with much less exposure are much more vibrant >than he--Glorfindel, Gildor, even the common Elves in Lorien! I think you're right. He's probably depressed. His daughter, for the record, didn't just depart to Eressea. She was captured by Orcs, tortured for several months, and poisoned. He's probably a little upset over that. He's also acutely aware that the only thing that's kept Middle-earth bearable for him for the past thousand years or so is his wife's ring. Now he's sending Frodo off to do something that's necessary for the world to survive, but he understands that if Frodo succeeds, that Ring will lose its power and he'll have to leave. Can you blame the guy for being depressed? ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 9 Jul 1999 10:50:28 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 25 Message-ID: <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-599.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:01:17 +0200 in article <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> "db" did proclaim: > > >robfarm1@my-deja.com wrote in message <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >>What's the deal with Celeborn? >> >You are basically correct. Celeborn is - for want of a more precise term - a >wanker. From when Eru first conceived of anything other than himself to the >last moment of recorded history, Celeborn does nothing but play some form of >appendage or other to someone who_is_ a real player. And when he does try to >carve out a piece of history for himself, he fails dismally and needs to be >rescued. He is the one flaw that Galadriel permits herself. Celeborn is one of the most vibrant and dynamic characters in the story. He is also the only major leader not to be tempted by the Ring when it comes into his hands. Even Bombadil couldn't resist playing with it. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:01:17 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 15 Message-ID: <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp207-40.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 931512648 10988 195.241.207.40 (9 Jul 1999 09:30:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 1999 09:30:48 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail robfarm1@my-deja.com wrote in message <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... >What's the deal with Celeborn? > You are basically correct. Celeborn is - for want of a more precise term - a wanker. From when Eru first conceived of anything other than himself to the last moment of recorded history, Celeborn does nothing but play some form of appendage or other to someone who_is_ a real player. And when he does try to carve out a piece of history for himself, he fails dismally and needs to be rescued. He is the one flaw that Galadriel permits herself. db ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 9 Jul 1999 11:12:37 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 84 Message-ID: <7m5e2l$39r@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <37860b42.4949330@news.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-758.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Fri, 09 Jul 1999 14:48:21 GMT in article <37860b42.4949330@news.earthlink.net> prembone@excitebitespam.com did proclaim: > >On Thu, 08 Jul 1999 23:41:34 GMT, robfarm1@my-deja.com wrote: > >>I'm rereading LotR for the umpteenth time, and we're just now leaving >>Lothlorien. And again I'm struck by what a total non-entity Celeborn is. >>Here he's been described by Galadriel as "the wisest of the Elves of >>Middle-Earth", called Celeborn the Wise, and supposedly has been around >>since the days of dawn. Well, I can't find the original article, so I'll reply through Prembone's. "Non-entity" is about as far from Celeborn as portrayed in THE LORD OF THE RINGS as you can get. He is a major power. The greater the power, the more removed from the primary action of the story he is -- hence, we only see Sauron from a distance. >>But when the Eight arrive at Lorien, all he does is welcome them, have >>Frodo sit at his side, try to pick a fight with Gimli, then clam up >>while Galadriel spanks him verbally... Celeborn by no means tries to pick a fight with Gimli. He simply realizes that the Fellowship have awakened a great power which now threatens his people and he says he would have denied them all admission to his realm had he know what a great peril might follow them. Nor does Galadriel verbally spank Celeborn. She pleads the case of the exile. When Tolkien wrote the story Celeborn was not (in his conception) an exile from Aman, so Galadriel appealed to his compassionate wisdom and shared with him some of the loss and wonder that Gimli must have felt. She was in a unique position to understand how the Dwarf would feel. >>...She then takes over the show, >>claims responsibility for calling the White Council together in the >>first place, and essentially runs the show for the rest of their stay. >>Then when they're leaving, all Celeborn the Wise can muster is "See ya! >>You need boats, the river has 2 sides, figure it out for yerselves!" You have missed the significance of the entire passage. Aragorn is in doubt over what to do and Celeborn perceives that more time is required, while the boats will enable the Fellowship to travel swiftly and far along their common path. Without Celeborn's gift the Fellowship would have had to march south along the western shores of Anduin. Not only would the trip have taken longer, they would have been at greater risk of pursuit by the Orcs from Moria, and ultimately they would have had to pass closer to Isengard than was safe. Celeborn was being extremely shrewd. Like everyone else he had no idea of what Gandalf intended, but he understood the necessity for getting the Ring past Isengard as quickly as possible. And the river presented the best opportunity for the Fellowship to outrun any pursuit from the north. >>It's been a looooong while since I read any of the later tomes, and >>don't remember Celeborn figuring in them, either. Did the early >>departure of his daughter to Eressea take the life out of him? Has he >>been henpecked into complete apathy? Is he clinically depressed? Other >>Elf-Lords in the book with much less exposure are much more vibrant >>than he--Glorfindel, Gildor, even the common Elves in Lorien! >> >>What's the deal with Celeborn? Actually, Celeborn is one of the most intriguing of the Elven lords. He is strong, wise, and cautious. But more importantly, he is the only one (encountered in the story) who actually plays an active role in the War of the Ring. Only Thranduil plays any similar part, and he is so far removed from the action we only see him through anecdote. After the Ring passed through Lorien that land was no longer strategically important. Celeborn fought three battles in Lorien before attacking Dol Guldur, but his battles really had no impact on the war's outcome. At best he helped to preserve the Vales of Anduin and Rohan from being overwhelmed, so his military contribution was appreciated after the war. But in the story Celeborn shows that not all the Elven lords are consumed with desire for Rings of Power, that they can be compassionate and sensitive to the needs of thers, flexible in thought, dynamic in purpose, shrewd, and formidable military powers despite the Elves' diminished populations. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:05:33 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 12 Message-ID: <7m4hm3$qmq$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-h079.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 931514883 27354 195.167.115.207 (9 Jul 1999 10:08:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 1999 10:08:03 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail wrote in message news:7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > What's the deal with Celeborn? My guess is that Galadriel keeps him around as a sex toy. I agree that he's perhaps the character with the weakest, most undistinguished personality throughout Tolkien's works. Aris Katsaris ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 14:48:21 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Fri Jul 9 07:55:14 1999 References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-006mnminnp285.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 9 Jul 1999 14:50:56 GMT Message-ID: <37860b42.4949330@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Thu, 08 Jul 1999 23:41:34 GMT, robfarm1@my-deja.com wrote: >I'm rereading LotR for the umpteenth time, and we're just now leaving >Lothlorien. And again I'm struck by what a total non-entity Celeborn is. >Here he's been described by Galadriel as "the wisest of the Elves of >Middle-Earth", called Celeborn the Wise, and supposedly has been around >since the days of dawn. > >But when the Eight arrive at Lorien, all he does is welcome them, have >Frodo sit at his side, try to pick a fight with Gimli, then clam up >while Galadriel spanks him verbally. She then takes over the show, >claims responsibility for calling the White Council together in the >first place, and essentially runs the show for the rest of their stay. >Then when they're leaving, all Celeborn the Wise can muster is "See ya! >You need boats, the river has 2 sides, figure it out for yerselves!" > >It's been a looooong while since I read any of the later tomes, and >don't remember Celeborn figuring in them, either. Did the early >departure of his daughter to Eressea take the life out of him? Has he >been henpecked into complete apathy? Is he clinically depressed? Other >Elf-Lords in the book with much less exposure are much more vibrant >than he--Glorfindel, Gildor, even the common Elves in Lorien! > >What's the deal with Celeborn? From Robert Foster's "Complete Guide to Middle-earth": "Although Celeborn was an Elven-lord of great fame and was called Celeborn the Wise, in LOTR he does not seem especially bright." Yep. As usual, the women are the brains behind it all, but the men get all the glory.... "And I hope my Sam's behaved hisself and given satisfaction?" "Perfect satisfaction, Mr. Gamgee," said Frodo. ~~~~~ Tilde Proudly! ~~~~~ The Prembone Pages http://www.geocities.com/~prembone/ ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 11 Jul 1999 13:24:15 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 46 Message-ID: <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-490.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Sun, 11 Jul 1999 22:39:01 +0300 in article <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> "Aris did proclaim: > > >Michael Martinez wrote in message >news:7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com... >> Celeborn is one of the most vibrant and dynamic characters in the story. > >Define 'vibrant' and 'dynamic' please. I'm certain we must have different >definitions. He strikes me as a vigorous and energetic character, flexible and capable of meeting whatever need arises. "Celeborn the Wise" is a truly faithful description. >> He is also the only major leader not to be tempted by the Ring when it comes >> into his hands. Even Bombadil couldn't resist playing with it. > >I think that he's such a passive character that having the kind of passion >and vision required to actually be tempted by something would be beyond the >capabilities of the character as written. All the tempted characters were >actually far more intriguing than Celeborn - Galadriel, Saruman, Boromir, >Faramir, Denethor, Gandalf, Sam, Bilbo, Frodo, Gollum. I'm not certain I'd >add Bombadil to this list, but he's also more interesting than Celeborn. I see nothing passive in Celeborn. He is a great leader and he chooses the time and purpose of his words carefully. Bombadil rather bored me, to be honest. He didn't get interesting until the end, where the Hobbits were in danger again. Celeborn holds my interest easily. >Storywise Tolkien could have removed Celeborn from the story, made minor >alterations in the chapter and all the rest of the story would be the same, >with very little real loss, and possibly gain. There is no way Tolkien could have removed Celeborn from the story. Galadriel would have been a 9,000 year-old elf-maid -- how could Tolkien possibly justify all the drooling over her if she couldn't even find a mate? More importantly, however, Celeborn provides a link between Galadriel and the people she is helping to rule. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 11 Jul 1999 19:47:51 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 33 Message-ID: <7mbl0n$ch1@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <7mb616$15c$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-188.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Sun, 11 Jul 1999 23:29:03 +0100 in article <7mb616$15c$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> "Deborah did proclaim: > >Michael Martinez: >> There is no way Tolkien could have removed Celeborn >> from the story. Galadriel would have been a 9,000 >> year-old elf-maid -- how could Tolkien possibly justify >> all the drooling over her if she couldn't even find a >> mate? > >Hm, I see. You're saying single (elf-)women after a certain >age can't possibly be attractive, or someone would have been >kind enough to take them off the shelf. If there were an emoticon for "tongue-in-cheek", I would have used it. >Isn't it possible that she might not have found someone >*she* wanted to marry? > >(Personally I think marrying Celeborn probably comes as >close to marrying nobody as you can get and still get the >wedding presents - not stupid, Galadriel, you see.) I can see Celeborn is not going to get a fair trial here. Perhaps we should just leave off. I think your expectations diverge from what the author intended for the character. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 22:39:01 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 47 Message-ID: <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-g036.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 931722091 4823 195.167.116.164 (11 Jul 1999 19:41:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 1999 19:41:31 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com... > On the day of Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:01:17 +0200 in article > <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> "db" did proclaim: > > > > > >robfarm1@my-deja.com wrote in message <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > > > >>What's the deal with Celeborn? > >> > >You are basically correct. Celeborn is - for want of a more precise term - a > >wanker. From when Eru first conceived of anything other than himself to the > >last moment of recorded history, Celeborn does nothing but play some form of > >appendage or other to someone who_is_ a real player. And when he does try to > >carve out a piece of history for himself, he fails dismally and needs to be > >rescued. He is the one flaw that Galadriel permits herself. > > Celeborn is one of the most vibrant and dynamic characters in the story. Define 'vibrant' and 'dynamic' please. I'm certain we must have different definitions. > He is > also the only major leader not to be tempted by the Ring when it comes into his > hands. Even Bombadil couldn't resist playing with it. I think that he's such a passive character that having the kind of passion and vision required to actually be tempted by something would be beyond the capabilities of the character as written. All the tempted characters were actually far more intriguing than Celeborn - Galadriel, Saruman, Boromir, Faramir, Denethor, Gandalf, Sam, Bilbo, Frodo, Gollum. I'm not certain I'd add Bombadil to this list, but he's also more interesting than Celeborn. Storywise Tolkien could have removed Celeborn from the story, made minor alterations in the chapter and all the rest of the story would be the same, with very little real loss, and possibly gain. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Deborah Pate" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 23:29:03 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7mb616$15c$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-122.name61.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 931732326 1196 62.136.190.122 (11 Jul 1999 22:32:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 1999 22:32:06 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez: > There is no way Tolkien could have removed Celeborn > from the story. Galadriel would have been a 9,000 > year-old elf-maid -- how could Tolkien possibly justify > all the drooling over her if she couldn't even find a > mate? Hm, I see. You're saying single (elf-)women after a certain age can't possibly be attractive, or someone would have been kind enough to take them off the shelf. Isn't it possible that she might not have found someone *she* wanted to marry? (Personally I think marrying Celeborn probably comes as close to marrying nobody as you can get and still get the wedding presents - not stupid, Galadriel, you see.) Deborah Pate ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 12 Jul 1999 10:27:27 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <37860b42.4949330@news.earthlink.net> <7mce21$800$1@weber.a2000.nl> <378a1557.140481216@news.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-778.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!do.de.uu.net!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:21:58 GMT in article <378a1557.140481216@news.earthlink.net> prembone@excitebitespam.com did proclaim: >I'm referring to his unsubstantiated reputation for wisdom. As is >evident from the audience of the Fellowship with Galadriel and >Celeborn, it is clearly Galadriel, not Celeborn, who is the Wise One >of Lorien. My conclusion: Celeborn leaned on the wisdom of his wife, >and was wrongly credited for the wisdom of his pronouncements when in >fact it was his wise wife that had done all the thinking. It was Celeborn, not Galadriel, who came up with the idea of boats. Had it not been for him, the entire company of the Ring might have fallen into Saruman's hands. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:19:59 +0200 Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos Lines: 29 Message-ID: <3789b0c3.0@sahara.cablecat.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <7mb616$15c$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> <7mbl0n$ch1@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sahara.cablecat.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!sahara.cablecat.com!empr1-40.cablecat.com Michael Martinez wrote in message <7mbl0n$ch1@drn.newsguy.com>... >On the day of Sun, 11 Jul 1999 23:29:03 +0100 in article ><7mb616$15c$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> "Deborah did proclaim: >> >>Michael Martinez: >I can see Celeborn is not going to get a fair trial here. Perhaps we should >just leave off. I think your expectations diverge from what the author intended >for the character. Just asking: is there any text that gives us any insight into what JRRT intended for the character? Could clarify things a bit. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:58:30 +0200 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7mce21$800$1@weber.a2000.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <37860b42.4949330@news.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: node11aae.a2000.nl X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 931773313 8192 24.132.26.174 (12 Jul 1999 09:55:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 1999 09:55:13 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!pascal.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Prembone wrote in message <37860b42.4949330@news.earthlink.net>... >As usual, the women are the brains behind it all, but the men get all >the glory.... When did Celeborn get any glory? And I don't recall any women at Elronds table when the Fellowship was formed... Probably busy cooking, or washing... db ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:27:59 +0200 Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3789c0b1.0@sahara.cablecat.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <37860b42.4949330@news.earthlink.net> <7mce21$800$1@weber.a2000.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: sahara.cablecat.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!sahara.cablecat.com!empr1-40.cablecat.com db wrote in message <7mce21$800$1@weber.a2000.nl>... > >Prembone wrote in message <37860b42.4949330@news.earthlink.net>... >>As usual, the women are the brains behind it all, but the men get all >>the glory.... > > >When did Celeborn get any glory? And I don't recall any women at Elronds >table when the Fellowship was formed... Probably busy cooking, or washing... >db Or having fun with their Dwarven gigolos, for all we know. ;-) In JRRTs society, women rarely occupied the highest positions of power. LoTR reflects this. In fact, the two examples of women given high command (Eowyn as third-in-command, and Galadriel as Queen at least equal to King) are probably more than one could expect from those times. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:43:06 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7mcdg2$kkm$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-g074.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 931772738 21142 195.167.116.202 (12 Jul 1999 09:45:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 1999 09:45:38 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com... > >Storywise Tolkien could have removed Celeborn from the story, made minor > >alterations in the chapter and all the rest of the story would be the same, > >with very little real loss, and possibly gain. > > There is no way Tolkien could have removed Celeborn from the story. Galadriel > would have been a 9,000 year-old elf-maid -- how could Tolkien possibly justify > all the drooling over her if she couldn't even find a mate? Well, actually I was thinking of Galadriel's husband either having died or left for Valinor, something similar with what was done to Celebrian and Elrond. Aris Katsaris ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:21:58 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Jul 12 09:25:19 1999 References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <37860b42.4949330@news.earthlink.net> <7mce21$800$1@weber.a2000.nl> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-003mnminnp256.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 12 Jul 1999 16:24:53 GMT Message-ID: <378a1557.140481216@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news.tvd.be!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:58:30 +0200, "db" wrote: > >Prembone wrote in message <37860b42.4949330@news.earthlink.net>... >>As usual, the women are the brains behind it all, but the men get all > >>the glory.... > > >When did Celeborn get any glory? I'm referring to his unsubstantiated reputation for wisdom. As is evident from the audience of the Fellowship with Galadriel and Celeborn, it is clearly Galadriel, not Celeborn, who is the Wise One of Lorien. My conclusion: Celeborn leaned on the wisdom of his wife, and was wrongly credited for the wisdom of his pronouncements when in fact it was his wise wife that had done all the thinking. "I've better things to do with my eternity than further your prurient interests." -- Frodo's Ghost ~~~Tilde Power!~~~ The Prembone Pages http://www.geocities.com/~prembone/ ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 12 Jul 1999 17:29:42 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-261.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of 12 Jul 1999 20:15:41 GMT in article <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> mcresq@aol.com did proclaim: > >My feelings on Celeborn are well-known (well maybe well-forgotten). I agree >with the school of thought that holds Celeborn was not portrayed as the wisest >elf in Middle earth, as Galadriel claims. I base this primarily on what I >consider his obvious bigotry towards dwarves and his isolationist world view. I definitely missed the scene where Celeborn displays any bigotry toward Dwarves. As for the isolationist world view, if you're referring to Lorien's policy of not admitting strangers, Galadriel is hardly critical of that policy. She must be as unwise and narrow-minded as he, don't you think? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 12 Jul 1999 20:15:41 GMT References: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail My feelings on Celeborn are well-known (well maybe well-forgotten). I agree with the school of thought that holds Celeborn was not portrayed as the wisest elf in Middle earth, as Galadriel claims. I base this primarily on what I consider his obvious bigotry towards dwarves and his isolationist world view. However, a thought occurs to me. Regardless of how he was protrayed in the Lorien scenes in LOTR and the snippets we can glean from Unfinished Tales, I do believe Tolkien *intended* that Celeborn be a wise elf lord. Unless we're going to believe that Galadriel would marry a dim bulb and that she was actually telling a great big fib to the Company, I think I'll just have to chalk this up as a rare occassion that JRRT's descriptions just weren't up to snuff. So regardless of how it turned out, I do believe that Tolkien intended Celeborn to be a wise elf lord, so I'll just leave it at that. It's like what I tell my wife when she finds some odd plot turn in a move hard to believe: "It's in the script" Russ ###### Message-ID: <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> From: One of Those Robinsons X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:25:27 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.214.68.36 X-Trace: news3.atl 931825570 209.214.68.36 (Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:26:10 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:26:10 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl!upstream.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > > > He strikes me as a vigorous and energetic character, flexible and capable of > meeting whatever need arises. "Celeborn the Wise" is a truly faithful > description. > >... > > I see nothing passive in Celeborn. He is a great leader and he chooses the time > and purpose of his words carefully. ... > Celeborn holds my interest easily. > Bah. Admittedly, perhaps the good Professor had plans ultimately to flesh out this stick character called Celeborn. However, it didn't happen, he didn't do squat, and repeated readings of LotR over a 26 year period from the ages of 16 to 42 have failed to illuminate me to the supposed "wisdom" of this utter non-entity. Ensuing maturity on my part has led me to deeper insights on all the other characters--why does the depth of this one continue to elude me? Unless, perhaps, there *is* no depth. Give it up, Celeborn is nothing but a missed opportunity for canny editing. Tolkien demonstrated a genius for breathing life into his characters--look at Gildor, for gosh sakes! How much time is he given--maybe 2 pages total? Celeborn gets more than that, yet is still but a pale shadow of a Man, much less an Elf. -- Lorri Robinson Scratchbottom Shires Horses, not retirement homes for hobbits with skin conditions http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/4242/ ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 12 Jul 1999 23:29:47 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 30 Message-ID: <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-053.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:25:27 -0400 in article <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> One did proclaim: >Bah. Admittedly, perhaps the good Professor had plans ultimately to >flesh out this stick character called Celeborn. However, it didn't >happen, he didn't do squat, and repeated readings of LotR over a 26 year >period from the ages of 16 to 42 have failed to illuminate me to the >supposed "wisdom" of this utter non-entity. Ensuing maturity on my part >has led me to deeper insights on all the other characters--why does the >depth of this one continue to elude me? I think it has more to do with what you expect to find in a "wise" elf than anything else. >Unless, perhaps, there *is* no depth. Give it up, Celeborn is nothing >but a missed opportunity for canny editing. Tolkien demonstrated a >genius for breathing life into his characters--look at Gildor, for gosh >sakes! How much time is he given--maybe 2 pages total? Celeborn gets >more than that, yet is still but a pale shadow of a Man, much less an >Elf. Celeborn towers above the others. He is Good Incarnate, Loyalty and Faithfulness, Wisdom and Courage. It's no wonder Galadriel stayed with him all those millenia. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: buratti@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:22:26 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <7mesvr$d8h$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <37860b42.4949330@news.earthlink.net> <7mce21$800$1@weber.a2000.nl> <378a1557.140481216@news.earthlink.net> <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.105.9.65 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jul 13 08:22:26 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x25.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 140.105.9.65 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com>, Michael Martinez wrote: > > It was Celeborn, not Galadriel, who came up with the idea of boats. Had it not > been for him, the entire company of the Ring might have fallen into Saruman's > hands. Right on, Michael, I was totally fascinated by your noticing (something that I never did) that indeed Celeborn was really the only one who was never tempted by the lure of the Ring and totally agree with your observations regarding his character. If I may add my two cents worth I think that maybe not many have realized that in Celeborn we see one of the rare apparitions of a great Elven Lord not of Noldorin origins. In fact, whether he originated in Doriath or whether he was kin of Olwe in Alqualonde he is of Teleri stock and in him we see a reflection of the wisdom of the Teleri who, like the Vanyar, never lent a year to the lies of Melko when he was released from bondage. His character should be treasured rather than scorned because in him we finally see an example of an Elven attitude which is quite different (and not less worthy) from the human and Noldorin- centric view of the history of Middle Earth. Bye, Emanuele Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 13 Jul 1999 11:22:01 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 32 Message-ID: <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-578.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!iad-peer.news.verio.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:43:40 GMT in article <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> arain02@FSUNI.rz.uni-passau.de did proclaim: > >On 12 Jul 1999 23:29:47 -0700, Michael Martinez >wrote: > >>Celeborn towers above the others. He is Good Incarnate, Loyalty and >>Faithfulness, Wisdom and Courage. It's no wonder Galadriel stayed with him >>all those millenia. > >Ah!?! > >It hasn't been THAT long that I last read LOTR and I've read it quite >a few times, but I seem to have missed something. I if trust my memory >correctly, Celeborn was just mentioned in a few sentences in LOTR, >certainly not enough to draw all the above conclusions. Could you >please cite the appropriate passages from LOTR (or any other works or >letters by JRRT) that substantiate your claim? That would be one of the longest citations in history. I'm afraid you'll have to just take my word for it that I see these things in Celeborn. He is a great Elven character. Most of them really don't achieve much -- Celeborn all but assures the success of the Quest of Mount Doom. He is vastly undercredited for his contribution. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 13 Jul 1999 11:23:19 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 14 Message-ID: <7mg06n$1k4c@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <7mf9k2$si9$5@news.worldonline.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-592.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:46:52 +0200 in article <7mf9k2$si9$5@news.worldonline.nl> "db" did proclaim: > >Michael, exactly what do you extrapolate this from? Or are you having us on? >db "Farewell to Lorien", mostly. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 13 Jul 1999 11:24:29 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 28 Message-ID: <7mg08t$1k7s@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <7mb616$15c$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> <7mbl0n$ch1@drn.newsguy.com> <7mf9k2$si9$4@news.worldonline.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-593.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:45:34 +0200 in article <7mf9k2$si9$4@news.worldonline.nl> "db" did proclaim: > > >Michael Martinez wrote in message <7mbl0n$ch1@drn.newsguy.com>... > >>I can see Celeborn is not going to get a fair trial here. Perhaps we >>should just leave off. I think your expectations diverge from what >>the author intended for the character. > > >From UT: History of Galadriel and Celeborn >(On Celeborn's dislike of dwarves) "In any case, Galadriel was more >far-sighted in this than Celeborn; and she perceived from the beginning that >Middle-earth could not be saved from 'the residue of evil' that Morgoth had >left behind him save by a union of all the peoples who were in their way and >in their measure opposed to him." [BZZT!] Tolkien rejected this text. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 13 Jul 1999 11:40:09 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 92 Message-ID: <7mg169$1ls6@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com> <19990713104553.06753.00004443@ngol06.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-665.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of 13 Jul 1999 14:45:53 GMT in article <19990713104553.06753.00004443@ngol06.aol.com> mcresq@aol.com did proclaim: >My personal opinion is that there was a basic mistrust of dwarves among the >Silvan population. In the appendix to LOTR, JRRT decribes the relationship >between the Noldor and the Dwarves as "less unfriendly" as between other Elves >and Dwarves. (I know you disagree with me here but this is my opinion!) I see >it this way, the Silvan and Avari elves had generally unfriendly relations with >dwarves though not outright hostility. The Sindar and the Dwarves has passable >relations - until the sack of Doriath, that is. The Noldor had ok relations - >about the best that existed between the peoples. Indeed, a true friendship >(the only true one until very late in the Third Age) grew between Durin folk >and the Noldor of Eregion. Your view, however, contradicts what is said in the texts. The Silvan Elves nowhere single out the Dwarves for special mistrust -- they distrust everyone outside their land, except the Elves of Rivendell. And Celeborn states that Dwarves had visited Caras Galadon in the past. That implies a friendly relationship with them. In THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH Tolkien's essay "Dwarves and Men" speaks of the Dwarves' dealings with Men and Elves, and in note 8 there is mention of the various languages in which warnings were inscribed on the east gate of Moria -- including both Quenya (the language of the Noldor) and Sindarin (essentially the common Tongue among Elves and Men until displaced by Westron). >Thus, I think the no dwarves rule grew out of the latent feelings of the Silvan >population, which feelings were quite in line with Celeborn's similar views >that were reinforced by his memory of the sacking of Doriath. I think the law was composed after the Dwarves first awoke the Balrog. The Elves of Lorien who stayed should then have had some reason to feel resentment and bitterness toward Dwarves. These feelings (if they ever existed) appear to have cooled or vanished by the end of the Third Age, however, as Haldir never really expresses animosity or hostility toward Gimli. He is unnerved to learn that a Dwarf is travelling with the Fellowship, but despite the ancient law he doesn't forbid Gimli entrance to Lorien. >I don't think Galadriel could simply overrule Celeborn and I don't even think >both of them could simply overrule the stated desires of the great majority of >their subjects. I don't have the impression that Celeborn and Galdriel >exercised absolute power in Lorien and that their will was law. I see them >much more as an English 18th century constitutional monarchy. In any event, I >think that Celeborn was a supporter of the no-dwarf rule and that showed his >bigotry. Celeborn was by no means a bigot. His was the warmest welcome to Gimli. >As to his isolationism, I was speaking in a broader political context. Lorien, >under Celeborn, effectively cut itself off from the larger world around it. >When the evil arose in Moria, Lorien shut its doors just as effectively as the >Dwarves did previously after the loss of Eregion. Lorien was no more than a >days' ride from Rohan yet there is no relationship there. There is no contact >with their cousins in Mirkwood. Even in Rivendell, the trip to Lorien was >considered a mysterious one to a secret place. After the departure of Amroth and many of its people, Lorien became a diminished nation. The Eotheod, their closest "friendly" mannish neighbors, had just migrated north several years before. So, bereft of two allies (or at least non-belligerent neighbors), Khazad-dum and the Eotheod, and diminished in strength, Lorien was put in a position where it had to change its policies somehow. The isolationism is more an indication of the success of Sauron's desires than anything else, though Sauron seems not have to brought about these events in any direct fashion. Events just flowed in a way that benefitted him. >The only movement out of Lorien only came *after* it was attacked three times >during the War of the Ring. Lets on its own, Celeborn's Lorien would have >preferred to just sit the whole thing out. I somply don't think Galadriel, on >her own could force Lorien to a more active role - even if she herself took a >more active role in wider affairs. No, that's not entirely true. Haldir told the Fellowship that the Galadhrim occasionally sent scouts into the outer world. Also, the White Council appears to have launched its attack on Dol Guldur from Lorien. Undoubtedly they had to use the Silvan Elves' army in that assault. >Thus, I see Celeborn portrayed (unintentionally perhaps) as unwise because of >his acceptance of the racial distrust and dislike of dwarves and of his >parochial world view that failed to realize that Lorien's fate was bound witht >he fate of all free peoples and he should have joined more actively with them >rather than hiding in the shadows. You're seeing things differently from the way the author portrayed them, however. Celeborn was not a racist. He had reason to resent Dwarves but does not express any such resentment in the book. He is concerned about the Balrog when Gimli speaks of Durin's Bane, and regrets admitting ANY of the Fellowship to Lorien, but his regret is only borne of concern for his people and quickly passes. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:45:34 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7mf9k2$si9$4@news.worldonline.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <7mb616$15c$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> <7mbl0n$ch1@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp216-70.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 931867074 29257 195.241.216.70 (13 Jul 1999 11:57:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 1999 11:57:54 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message <7mbl0n$ch1@drn.newsguy.com>... >I can see Celeborn is not going to get a fair trial here. Perhaps we should >just leave off. I think your expectations diverge from what the author intended >for the character. From UT: History of Galadriel and Celeborn (On Celeborn's dislike of dwarves) "In any case, Galadriel was more far-sighted in this than Celeborn; and she perceived from the beginning that Middle-earth could not be saved from 'the residue of evil' that Morgoth had left behind him save by a union of all the peoples who were in their way and in their measure opposed to him." Hate for Prembone to read this, but Galadriel was 10 times the man Celeborn was. db ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:46:52 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 11 Message-ID: <7mf9k2$si9$5@news.worldonline.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp216-70.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 931867074 29257 195.241.216.70 (13 Jul 1999 11:57:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 1999 11:57:54 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail Michael, exactly what do you extrapolate this from? Or are you having us on? db Michael Martinez wrote in message <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com>... >Celeborn towers above the others. He is Good Incarnate, Loyalty and >Faithfulness, Wisdom and Courage. It's no wonder Galadriel stayed with him all >those millenia. ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:50:19 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 15 Message-ID: <7mf9k2$si9$6@news.worldonline.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <37860b42.4949330@news.earthlink.net> <7mce21$800$1@weber.a2000.nl> <378a1557.140481216@news.earthlink.net> <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <7mesvr$d8h$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp216-70.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 931867074 29257 195.241.216.70 (13 Jul 1999 11:57:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 1999 11:57:54 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail As for Celeborn's not being tempted to use the One Ring, he was wise at least in the sense that Dirty Harry Callahan meant when he said; "You're a good man, Celeborn. And a good man knows his limitations." That was about the extent of Celeborns wisdom. db buratti@my-deja.com wrote in message <7mesvr$d8h$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > Right on, Michael, I was totally fascinated by your noticing >(something that I never did) that indeed Celeborn was really >the only one who was never tempted by the lure of the Ring and >totally agree with your observations regarding his character. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Lines: 69 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 13 Jul 1999 14:45:53 GMT References: <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990713104553.06753.00004443@ngol06.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com>, Michael Martinez writes: >On the day of 12 Jul 1999 20:15:41 GMT in article ><19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> mcresq@aol.com did proclaim: >> >>My feelings on Celeborn are well-known (well maybe well-forgotten). I agree >>with the school of thought that holds Celeborn was not portrayed as the >wisest >>elf in Middle earth, as Galadriel claims. I base this primarily on what I >>consider his obvious bigotry towards dwarves and his isolationist world >view. > >I definitely missed the scene where Celeborn displays any bigotry toward >Dwarves. As for the isolationist world view, if you're referring to Lorien's >policy of not admitting strangers, Galadriel is hardly critical of that >policy. >She must be as unwise and narrow-minded as he, don't you think? IIRC from previous discussions, I think all sides agree that it is unclear what the precise source of the "no dwarves" rule was. Was it somthing preexisting among the Silvan elves and Celeborn and Galadriel couldn't really decree it out of existance, or was it the policy of Celeborn and/or Galadriel. We know the rule existed but we have ot engage in speculation to discuss its roots. My personal opinion is that there was a basic mistrust of dwarves among the Silvan population. In the appendix to LOTR, JRRT decribes the relationship between the Noldor and the Dwarves as "less unfriendly" as between other Elves and Dwarves. (I know you disagree with me here but this is my opinion!) I see it this way, the Silvan and Avari elves had generally unfriendly relations with dwarves though not outright hostility. The Sindar and the Dwarves has passable relations - until the sack of Doriath, that is. The Noldor had ok relations - about the best that existed between the peoples. Indeed, a true friendship (the only true one until very late in the Third Age) grew between Durin folk and the Noldor of Eregion. Thus, I think the no dwarves rule grew out of the latent feelings of the Silvan population, which feelings were quite in line with Celeborn's similar views that were reinforced by his memory of the sacking of Doriath. I don't think Galadriel could simply overrule Celeborn and I don't even think both of them could simply overrule the stated desires of the great majority of their subjects. I don't have the impression that Celeborn and Galdriel exercised absolute power in Lorien and that their will was law. I see them much more as an English 18th century constitutional monarchy. In any event, I think that Celeborn was a supporter of the no-dwarf rule and that showed his bigotry. As to his isolationism, I was speaking in a broader political context. Lorien, under Celeborn, effectively cut itself off from the larger world around it. When the evil arose in Moria, Lorien shut its doors just as effectively as the Dwarves did previously after the loss of Eregion. Lorien was no more than a days' ride from Rohan yet there is no relationship there. There is no contact with their cousins in Mirwood. Even in Rivendell, the trip to Lorien was considered a mysterious one to a secret place. The only movement out of Lorien only came *after* it was attacked three times during the War of the Ring. Lets on its own, Celeborn's Lorien would have preferred to just sit the whhole thing out. I somply don't think Galadriel, on her own could force Lorien to a more active role - even if she herself took a more active role in wider affairs. Thus, I see Celeborn portrayed (unintentionally perhaps) as unwise because of his acceptance of the racial distrust and dislike of dwarves and of his parochial world view that failed to realize that Lorien's fate was bound witht he fate of all free peoples and he should have joined more actively with them rather than hiding in the shadows. Russ ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Lines: 25 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:31:10 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.38.173 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 931887279 130.244.38.173 (Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:34:39 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:34:39 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail McREsq hath written: > >However, a thought occurs to me. Regardless of how he was protrayed in the >Lorien scenes in LOTR and the snippets we can glean from Unfinished Tales, I do >believe Tolkien *intended* that Celeborn be a wise elf lord. Unless we're >going to believe that Galadriel would marry a dim bulb and that she was >actually telling a great big fib to the Company, I think I'll just have to >chalk this up as a rare occassion that JRRT's descriptions just weren't up to >snuff. Sometimes clever and beutiful women puzzle everybody who knows them by falling in love with and marrying complete nobodies. It's the eternal question of "she and he". Very realistic to let the greatest female personality in "The Lord of the Rings" be married a loser. Öjevind ###### From: arain02@FSUNI.rz.uni-passau.de (Karim Arain) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:43:40 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> Reply-To: Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de NNTP-Posting-Host: news.rz.uni-passau.de X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!uni-erlangen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!news.rz.uni-passau.de!132.231.41.167 On 12 Jul 1999 23:29:47 -0700, Michael Martinez wrote: >Celeborn towers above the others. He is Good Incarnate, Loyalty and >Faithfulness, Wisdom and Courage. It's no wonder Galadriel stayed with him all >those millenia. Ah!?! It hasn't been THAT long that I last read LOTR and I've read it quite a few times, but I seem to have missed something. I if trust my memory correctly, Celeborn was just mentioned in a few sentences in LOTR, certainly not enough to draw all the above conclusions. Could you please cite the appropriate passages from LOTR (or any other works or letters by JRRT) that substantiate your claim? Ciao. Karim ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 13 Jul 1999 23:39:47 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 27 Message-ID: <7mhbbj$23ie@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com> <27044-378C0C82-80@newsd-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-120.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:05:22 -0400 (EDT) in article <27044-378C0C82-80@newsd-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> DONEY4@webtv.net did proclaim: > >I find Celeborn to be more tired than anything else. I don't think >Tolkien made a mistake and failed to flesh out this character. Instead, >with Celeborn's aloofness and reticence to speak, I think Tolkien is >trying to give us an image of someone who is already separating himself >from this place (Middle Earth) and its concerns. But Celeborn is the last Elf (from the Elder Days) to leave. Your point is interesting, but I think it needs some refinement. Celeborn as the coordinator of Lorien's policy may indeed foreshadow the departure and/or withdrawal of the Elves, but his real purpose in the story seems more straightforward to me. When Galadriel expresses doubt about what the Fellowship should do, Celeborn steps forward and moves them (gently) in the right direction. Galadriel refuses (or fears) to give Frodo advice, but Celeborn lays it all on the line and says, "If you're going to do this thing, there is only one path for you: Mordor." -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: DONEY4@webtv.net (Daniel Ketchum) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:05:22 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 6 Message-ID: <27044-378C0C82-80@newsd-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRQccrs1pFl6lOMGL5k1BElISkLmgIUeudtc2U14TlteiHXgrwhpZeMUzw= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail I find Celeborn to be more tired than anything else. I don't think Tolkien made a mistake and failed to flesh out this character. Instead, with Celeborn's aloofness and reticence to speak, I think Tolkien is trying to give us an image of someone who is already separating himself from this place (Middle Earth) and its concerns. ###### From: Ed Robillard Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:08:51 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <7mf9k2$si9$5@news.worldonline.nl> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-Accept-Language: en Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: 14 Jul 1999 11:04:14 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Wed Jul 14 04:05:09 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Lines: 56 Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: tuor7@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ip175.seattle11.wa.pub-ip.psi.net Message-ID: <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail db wrote: > > Michael, exactly what do you extrapolate this from? Or are you having us on? > db > > Michael Martinez wrote in message <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com>... > >Celeborn towers above the others. He is Good Incarnate, Loyalty and > >Faithfulness, Wisdom and Courage. It's no wonder Galadriel stayed with him > all > >those millenia. I think he is having us on by playing Devil's Advocate. Courage -- what courage? Where did he display courage? Faithfulness -- he said 'But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this trouble [the Balrog], I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you.' Wisdom -- 'And if it were at all possible, one would say at the last that Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria.' Galadriel deftly recovers the situation and saves Celeborn from looking like an idiot by speaking of keeping the Fellowship out (while knowing what they bear) and calling Gandalf a fool to those who had just witnessed his death. Furthermore, Celeborn is *not* the only Elf-lord not to be tempted by the Ring. Elrond was not tempted either. I'm not saying that Celeborn is a total idiot (he married Galadriel), but I think Galadriel was engaging in a bit of hyperbole when saying that Celeborn was 'accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth'. Plus, 'accounted' does not exactly mean 'is'. Its meaning is closer to 'is thought to be' or 'is said to be'. According to Tolkien, Cirdan 'saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth.' The impression I got from Celeborn and Galadriel's greeting of the Fellowship is that she let Celeborn do all the talking but stayed on hand in case he should falter (as he did when told of Gandalf's fall). When that happened, she quickly stepped in to right the situation. All of the Elves in Lothlorien know that it is *her* might, through the Ring, that is a major reason why Lorien remained free. I imagine this did not do much for Celeborn's self-esteem. Yes, it was Celeborn who brought up the matter of boats, but it does not follow that he is the one who *thought* to offer them to the Fellowship. For all we know, Galadriel may have mentioned it to him in private. Finally, I wonder if Tolkien made Celeborn the way he did in order to further emphasize Galadriel's greatness and wisdom. At any rate, Celeborn is not a bad person, nor is he entirely lacking in good qualities, but he seems only average when compared to the great people who we read of in the rest of the book. Tuor ###### From: buratti@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:39:44 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 57 Message-ID: <7mhlsv$dh2$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com> <27044-378C0C82-80@newsd-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.105.9.65 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jul 14 09:39:44 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x32.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 140.105.9.65 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.idt.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <27044-378C0C82-80@newsd-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, DONEY4@webtv.net (Daniel Ketchum) wrote: > I find Celeborn to be more tired than anything else. I don't think > Tolkien made a mistake and failed to flesh out this character. Instead, > with Celeborn's aloofness and reticence to speak, I think Tolkien is > trying to give us an image of someone who is already separating himself > from this place (Middle Earth) and its concerns. > this is certainly one way to look at it but I wouldn't really put it down to "aloofness". When I read your words I could not help remembering the rebuke of Gelmir (or was it Arminas?) to Turin in Nargothrond where he unthinkingly accused the Valar to "scorn" at something or not caring about Midlle-Earth. IMHO, too many answers in this thread betray an attitude where a patent of power/wisdom can be awarded only on the basis of direct and violent action. Celeborn (apparently) does not run around hacking orcs and therefore Galadriel must be a liar when she EXPLICITLY says that Celeborn is the wisest elf in ME. And yet, in Middle-Earth, we CONSISTENTLY see that the most powerful beings are (apparently) inactive. Even Gandalf, who was designated to be the Enemy of Sauron and had to BE active perforce, had been FORBIDDEN to seek victory or convince people through DIRECT action but only to function as co-ordinator of whatever opposition could be found already in place. He kept his wisdom and won a great victory, Saruman did not and lost all. Great power governed by great wisdom can rarely be seen mainly because the wise are well aware that not even they can see all ends (gandalf docet and even the Vala repented of the summon of the Elves to Aman) and that even apparently silly actions (not stabbing Gollum in the back, not keeping the ring safe until the uttermost need) can one day rule the fate of many (and not kindly, perhaps). Let me put it this way: if you are a timberman and have to resolve a log-jam on the river what is the wisest course you can do?, call in a B-52 air strike or take your time, study the situation, and then MOVE the single puny log that will prime the chain reaction leading to the destruction of the log-jam?. Bye, Emanuele Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:12:40 +0200 Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos Lines: 38 Message-ID: <378c5455.0@sahara.cablecat.com> References: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sahara.cablecat.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.mad.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!sahara.cablecat.com!empr1-40.cablecat.com Öjevind Lång wrote in message ... > >McREsq hath written: > > >> >>However, a thought occurs to me. Regardless of how he was protrayed in the >>Lorien scenes in LOTR and the snippets we can glean from Unfinished Tales, >I do >>believe Tolkien *intended* that Celeborn be a wise elf lord. Unless we're >>going to believe that Galadriel would marry a dim bulb and that she was >>actually telling a great big fib to the Company, I think I'll just have to >>chalk this up as a rare occassion that JRRT's descriptions just weren't up >to >>snuff. > > >Sometimes clever and beutiful women puzzle everybody who knows them by >falling in love with and marrying complete nobodies. It's the eternal >question of "she and he". Very realistic to let the greatest female >personality in "The Lord of the Rings" be married a loser. > >Öjevind And remember, there are things JRRT never writes about, even if they must exist for sure. ;-) Maybe there is the "hidden" reason. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:04:06 +0200 Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos Message-ID: <378c6e73.0@sahara.cablecat.com> References: <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com> <27044-378C0C82-80@newsd-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7mhlsv$dh2$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sahara.cablecat.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Lines: 85 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.mad.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!sahara.cablecat.com!empr1-40.cablecat.com buratti@my-deja.com wrote in message <7mhlsv$dh2$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... >In article ><27044-378C0C82-80@newsd-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, > DONEY4@webtv.net (Daniel Ketchum) wrote: >> I find Celeborn to be more tired than anything else. I don't think >> Tolkien made a mistake and failed to flesh out this character. Instead, >> with Celeborn's aloofness and reticence to speak, I think Tolkien is >> trying to give us an image of someone who is already separating himself >> from this place (Middle Earth) and its concerns. >> > this is certainly one way to look at it but I wouldn't >really put it down to "aloofness". When I read your words I >could not help remembering the rebuke of Gelmir (or was it >Arminas?) to Turin in Nargothrond where he unthinkingly >accused the Valar to "scorn" at something or not caring >about Midlle-Earth. > > IMHO, too many answers in this thread betray an attitude >where a patent of power/wisdom can be awarded only on the >basis of direct and violent action. Celeborn (apparently) >does not run around hacking orcs and therefore Galadriel >must be a liar when she EXPLICITLY says that Celeborn is >the wisest elf in ME. Well, love is known to distort perception. :-) > And yet, in Middle-Earth, we CONSISTENTLY see that the >most powerful beings are (apparently) inactive. Even >Gandalf, who was designated to be the Enemy of Sauron and >had to BE active perforce, had been FORBIDDEN to seek >victory or convince people through DIRECT action but only >to function as co-ordinator of whatever opposition could be >found already in place. He kept his wisdom and won a great >victory, Saruman did not and lost all. a)- Powerful is not the same as wise. b)- Inaction in itself is not a proof of wisdom. The shirefolk did nothing while their land's borders were being defended by the Rangers. Are the hobbits wiser than the Rangers? The wisdom of acting or not acting depends on the circumstances. As usual. > Great power governed by great wisdom can rarely be seen >mainly because the wise are well aware that not even they >can see all ends (gandalf docet and even the Vala repented >of the summon of the Elves to Aman) and that even >apparently silly actions (not stabbing Gollum in the back, >not keeping the ring safe until the uttermost need) can one >day rule the fate of many (and not kindly, perhaps). > > Let me put it this way: if you are a timberman and have to >resolve a log-jam on the river what is the wisest course >you can do?, call in a B-52 air strike or take your time, >study the situation, and then MOVE the single puny log that >will prime the chain reaction leading to the destruction of >the log-jam?. Wow, bring in the B-52s! It would not be most practical, but what a show! Now seriously. First thing: I'm not saying Celeborn is or is not the wisest Elf in ME. I don't know. My point: Celeborn doesn't show much wisdom in LoTR. He is mostly passive. The only achievement MM has been able to credit C. for is the idea of giving boats to the Fellowship. Possibly a good idea, but hardly a proof of great wisdom. Celeborn neither shows any grand folly. Frankly, from what we see in LoTR there is not much that can be said about C. He blends into the Lorien background as a King-consort to Galadriel, who runs the show there (at least while we are looking). A majestic figure as part of the decoration. If he hids great pearls of wisdom, he keeps them to himself. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:34:46 +0200 Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos Lines: 36 Message-ID: <378c75a3.0@sahara.cablecat.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <7mf9k2$si9$5@news.worldonline.nl> <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sahara.cablecat.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!sahara.cablecat.com!empr1-40.cablecat.com Ed Robillard wrote in message <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com>... > >db wrote: >> >> Michael, exactly what do you extrapolate this from? Or are you having us on? >> db >> >> Michael Martinez wrote in message <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com>... >> >Celeborn towers above the others. He is Good Incarnate, Loyalty and >> >Faithfulness, Wisdom and Courage. It's no wonder Galadriel stayed with him >> all >> >those millenia. > >I think he is having us on by playing Devil's Advocate. You are right. I know it is difficult to distinguish this prank from his other far-off interpretations of the texts, but this was an intentional exaggeration. You made very good points, and put good quotes to support them. I mostly agree with you: Celeborn may be wise, but he doesn't show it in LoTR. Neither is he displayed as a brainless bigot, mind you, but he is a poor "wise one". R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Call me mead-tongue" ###### From: Ed Robillard Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:44:57 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com> <19990713104553.06753.00004443@ngol06.aol.com> <7mg169$1ls6@drn.newsguy.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-Accept-Language: en Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: 14 Jul 1999 20:40:21 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Wed Jul 14 13:45:09 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Lines: 125 Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: tuor7@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ip208.seattle12.wa.pub-ip.psi.net Message-ID: <378CF6C9.2AEE8944@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > On the day of 13 Jul 1999 14:45:53 GMT in article > <19990713104553.06753.00004443@ngol06.aol.com> mcresq@aol.com did proclaim: > >My personal opinion is that there was a basic mistrust of dwarves among the > >Silvan population. In the appendix to LOTR, JRRT decribes the relationship > >between the Noldor and the Dwarves as "less unfriendly" as between other Elves > >and Dwarves. (I know you disagree with me here but this is my opinion!) I see > >it this way, the Silvan and Avari elves had generally unfriendly relations with > >dwarves though not outright hostility. The Sindar and the Dwarves has passable > >relations - until the sack of Doriath, that is. The Noldor had ok relations - > >about the best that existed between the peoples. Indeed, a true friendship > >(the only true one until very late in the Third Age) grew between Durin folk > >and the Noldor of Eregion. > > Your view, however, contradicts what is said in the texts. The Silvan Elves > nowhere single out the Dwarves for special mistrust -- they distrust everyone > outside their land, except the Elves of Rivendell. And Celeborn states that > Dwarves had visited Caras Galadon in the past. That implies a friendly > relationship with them. In THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH Tolkien's essay "Dwarves > and Men" speaks of the Dwarves' dealings with Men and Elves, and in note 8 there > is mention of the various languages in which warnings were inscribed on the east > gate of Moria -- including both Quenya (the language of the Noldor) and Sindarin > (essentially the common Tongue among Elves and Men until displaced by Westron). 'A dwarf!' said Haldir. 'That is not well. We have not had dealings with Dwarves since the Dark Days. They are not permitted in our land. I cannot allow him to pass.' Please explain how this is not being singled out for special mistrust. Please explain how Gimli was mentioned last of the Fellowship to Haldir, and how Haldir only reacted this way to Gimli, not to Boromir, the Hobbits, Legolas, or Aragorn. I don't care what is said in HoMe. This is text directly from LotR and utterly trumps HoMe. Celeborn said it was 'long' since there had been a Dwarf in Caras Galadon. He did not say how long. > >Thus, I think the no dwarves rule grew out of the latent feelings of the Silvan > >population, which feelings were quite in line with Celeborn's similar views > >that were reinforced by his memory of the sacking of Doriath. > > I think the law was composed after the Dwarves first awoke the Balrog. The > Elves of Lorien who stayed should then have had some reason to feel resentment > and bitterness toward Dwarves. These feelings (if they ever existed) appear to > have cooled or vanished by the end of the Third Age, however, as Haldir never > really expresses animosity or hostility toward Gimli. He is unnerved to learn > that a Dwarf is travelling with the Fellowship, but despite the ancient law he > doesn't forbid Gimli entrance to Lorien. He doesn't forbade entry because Frodo, Aragorn, and Legolas all vouch for him, and even so, Haldir still insists upon blindfolding Gimli. This later leads to all the Fellowship being so blindfolded. > >I don't think Galadriel could simply overrule Celeborn and I don't even think > >both of them could simply overrule the stated desires of the great majority of > >their subjects. I don't have the impression that Celeborn and Galdriel > >exercised absolute power in Lorien and that their will was law. I see them > >much more as an English 18th century constitutional monarchy. In any event, I > >think that Celeborn was a supporter of the no-dwarf rule and that showed his > >bigotry. > > Celeborn was by no means a bigot. His was the warmest welcome to Gimli. Yeah, except for the 'trouble of his heart' when he heard Gandalf fell and inanely told people who were still grieving over it that Gandalf appeard to have fallen into folly. He all but repudates his welcome of Gimli, but Galadriel saves the day by speaking of Dwarvish things to him using the Dwarves own words for them. It was *then* that Gimli 'looked up and met her eyes; and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an enemy and saw there love and understanding. Wonder came into his face, and then he smiled in answer.' Gosh...Tolkien used the word 'enemy' in his words; I wonder why. > >As to his isolationism, I was speaking in a broader political context. Lorien, > >under Celeborn, effectively cut itself off from the larger world around it. > >When the evil arose in Moria, Lorien shut its doors just as effectively as the > >Dwarves did previously after the loss of Eregion. Lorien was no more than a > >days' ride from Rohan yet there is no relationship there. There is no contact > >with their cousins in Mirkwood. Even in Rivendell, the trip to Lorien was > >considered a mysterious one to a secret place. > > After the departure of Amroth and many of its people, Lorien became a diminished > nation. The Eotheod, their closest "friendly" mannish neighbors, had just > migrated north several years before. So, bereft of two allies (or at least > non-belligerent neighbors), Khazad-dum and the Eotheod, and diminished in > strength, Lorien was put in a position where it had to change its policies > somehow. The isolationism is more an indication of the success of Sauron's > desires than anything else, though Sauron seems not have to brought about these > events in any direct fashion. Events just flowed in a way that benefitted him. > > >The only movement out of Lorien only came *after* it was attacked three times > >during the War of the Ring. Lets on its own, Celeborn's Lorien would have > >preferred to just sit the whole thing out. I somply don't think Galadriel, on > >her own could force Lorien to a more active role - even if she herself took a > >more active role in wider affairs. > > No, that's not entirely true. Haldir told the Fellowship that the Galadhrim > occasionally sent scouts into the outer world. Also, the White Council appears > to have launched its attack on Dol Guldur from Lorien. Undoubtedly they had to > use the Silvan Elves' army in that assault. > > >Thus, I see Celeborn portrayed (unintentionally perhaps) as unwise because of > >his acceptance of the racial distrust and dislike of dwarves and of his > >parochial world view that failed to realize that Lorien's fate was bound witht > >he fate of all free peoples and he should have joined more actively with them > >rather than hiding in the shadows. > > You're seeing things differently from the way the author portrayed them, > however. Celeborn was not a racist. He had reason to resent Dwarves but does > not express any such resentment in the book. He is concerned about the Balrog > when Gimli speaks of Durin's Bane, and regrets admitting ANY of the Fellowship > to Lorien, but his regret is only borne of concern for his people and quickly > passes. He interprets Tolkien's words differently than you do. Simple as that. Celeborn was speaking to Gimli when he said 'you and all who went with you'. He did not say such a thing to Legolas who first said it was a Balrog of Morgoth. I'm sure it was also his 'concern' that led him to conclude (in a lamely passive sort of way) that Gandalf had fallen into folly for leading the Fellowship into the 'net of Moria'. Tuor ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> <378c5455.0@sahara.cablecat.com> Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.118.54 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 931954581 130.244.118.54 (Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:16:21 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:16:21 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@dialup118-1-54.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:12:50 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail RLV hath written: >> >> >>Sometimes clever and beutiful women puzzle everybody who knows them by >>falling in love with and marrying complete nobodies. It's the eternal >>question of "she and he". Very realistic to let the greatest female >>personality in "The Lord of the Rings" be married a loser. >> >>Öjevind > > >And remember, there are things JRRT never writes about, even if they must >exist for sure. ;-) >Maybe there is the "hidden" reason. > > > R.L.V. So when can we expect your great thesis entitled "Celeborn: Philosopher and Lover"? Öjevind ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 14 Jul 1999 14:16:51 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 32 Message-ID: <7miuo3$1mrb@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com> <27044-378C0C82-80@newsd-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7mhlsv$dh2$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <378c6e73.0@sahara.cablecat.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-739.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:04:06 +0200 in article <378c6e73.0@sahara.cablecat.com> "RLV" did proclaim: > > >buratti@my-deja.com wrote in message <7mhlsv$dh2$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... >My point: Celeborn doesn't show much wisdom in LoTR. He is mostly passive. >The only achievement MM has been able to credit C. for is the idea of giving >boats to the Fellowship. Possibly a good idea, but hardly a proof of great >wisdom. I didn't realize the Celeborn Challenge had been issued. How many "achievements" must I credit to him before people stop attacking this poor character? >Celeborn neither shows any grand folly. Frankly, from what we see in LoTR >there is not much that can be said about C. He blends into the Lorien >background as a King-consort to Galadriel, who runs the show there (at least >while we are looking). A majestic figure as part of the decoration. If he >hids great pearls of wisdom, he keeps them to himself. A great deal can (and has) been said about Celeborn in favorable terms. He is one of the more interesting characters in the book. He doesn't just react to things, he initiates. Except for Bilbo, it's hard to show that any hobbit actually initiates a significant action. They just sort of bounce around like rag-tags at Gandalf's feet. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 14 Jul 1999 14:35:01 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 108 Message-ID: <7mivq5$1pa6@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <7mf9k2$si9$5@news.worldonline.nl> <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-821.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:08:51 -0700 in article <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com> Ed did proclaim: >db wrote: >> >> Michael, exactly what do you extrapolate this from? Or are you having us on? >> db >> >> Michael Martinez wrote in message <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com>... >> >Celeborn towers above the others. He is Good Incarnate, Loyalty and >> >Faithfulness, Wisdom and Courage. It's no wonder Galadriel stayed with him >> >all >those millenia. > >I think he is having us on by playing Devil's Advocate. Nope. >Courage -- what courage? Where did he display courage?... It takes great courage to lead a small nation against a great power. Last time I checked the book, everyone was convinced the only way to defeat Sauron was to destroy the One Ring. Had it not fallen into the right hands, could Lorien have survived the inevitable wars of conquest? I doubt it. And yet Celeborn chose not to leave Middle-earth as Amroth had before him. >...Faithfulness -- he said 'But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up >this trouble [the Balrog], I would have forbidden you to pass the northern >borders, you and all that went with you.'... This is not an act of faithlessness. Celeborn was faithful to the purpose he had set himself: to protect his people. He was also faithful to Middle-earth itself, unlike many other Elves who fled at the end of the Third Age. >...Wisdom -- 'And if it were at all possible, one would say >at the last that Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly >into the net of Moria.' And there is nothing wrong with that. Aragorn himself warned Gandalf against going to Moria. Shall we now start trouncing Aragorn for being an idiot? >Galadriel deftly recovers the situation and saves Celeborn from looking >like an idiot by speaking of keeping the Fellowship out (while knowing >what they bear) and calling Gandalf a fool to those who had just >witnessed his death. Celeborn did not need to be "saved". She strove to temper his concerns for their people with compassion for an exile, something Celeborn was not but which she was. And he understood her point very well. >Furthermore, Celeborn is *not* the only Elf-lord not to be tempted by >the Ring. Elrond was not tempted either. Indeed Elrond WAS tempted. "I fear to take the Ring to hide it. I will not take the Ring to wield it." These words just close out the paragraph which reveals how much he has thought about the One Ring: 'Alas, no,' said Elrond. 'We cannot use the Ruling Ring. That we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil. Its strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear. And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise. For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so. I fear to take the Ring to hide it. I will not take the Ring to wield it.' (From "The Council of Elrond" in THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING) Elrond says "it will be a danger even to the Wise". He is one of the Wise. He fears the Ring because he knows it does indeed tempt him. "Nothing is evil in the beginning." He need not be evil for the Ring to tempt him. Celeborn and Celeborn alone, of all the great beings who come into contact with the Ring, expresses neither interest in nor desire for nor fear of the One Ring. Gandalf fears it. Bombadil has to play with it. Elrond fears it. Galadriel longs for it. Only Celeborn lets it pass by, barely noticed, barely mentioned. [snip] Celeborn greeted the Fellowship as lord of the Galadhrim. Galadriel was there by his side not to correct him but to support him. She appealed to Celeborn not to repent of his greeting to the Dwarf, and he granted her appeal. The change in heart shows he is indeed flexible, compassionate, and wise. >Yes, it was Celeborn who brought up the matter of boats, but it does not >follow that he is the one who *thought* to offer them to the Fellowship. >For all we know, Galadriel may have mentioned it to him in private. It does indeed follow that Celeborn was the one came up with the idea of offering the boats to the Fellowship. Galadriel had already told them he was a great giver of gifts, they knew he was indeed quite wise, and the gifts in which Galadriel had a part were enumerated elsewhere. Again, we can only discuss the Thompson machine guns carried by the Fellowship of the Ring and not the C-4 packets used by the Elves of Lorien because the Seal Team had taken the entire supply to Mordor. >Finally, I wonder if Tolkien made Celeborn the way he did in order to >further emphasize Galadriel's greatness and wisdom. He probably made Celeborn the way he did to present a contrast to the outgoing nature of the Noldorin Elf Celeborn had married. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 14 Jul 1999 15:04:25 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7mj1h9$1t43@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <7mf9k2$si9$5@news.worldonline.nl> <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com> <378c75a3.0@sahara.cablecat.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-926.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:34:46 +0200 in article <378c75a3.0@sahara.cablecat.com> "RLV" did proclaim: > >Ed Robillard wrote in message <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com>... >>I think he is having us on by playing Devil's Advocate. > >You are right. I know it is difficult to distinguish this prank from his >other far-off interpretations of the texts, but this was an intentional >exaggeration. You are just bound and determined to bring your depredations from alt.fan.tolkien over to rec.arts.books.tolkien, aren't you? No, he is NOT right. There was nothing prankish in my article and I'll thank the both of you to stop trying to speak for me as neither of you are qualified to do so. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 14 Jul 1999 15:44:08 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 248 Message-ID: <7mj3ro$21fo@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com> <19990713104553.06753.00004443@ngol06.aol.com> <7mg169$1ls6@drn.newsguy.com> <378CF6C9.2AEE8944@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-068.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:44:57 -0700 in article <378CF6C9.2AEE8944@yahoo.com> Ed did proclaim: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> Your view, however, contradicts what is said in the texts. The Silvan Elves >> nowhere single out the Dwarves for special mistrust -- they distrust everyone >> outside their land, except the Elves of Rivendell. And Celeborn states that >> Dwarves had visited Caras Galadon in the past. That implies a friendly >> relationship with them. In THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH Tolkien's essay >> "Dwarves and Men" speaks of the Dwarves' dealings with Men and Elves, and in >> note 8 there is mention of the various languages in which warnings were >> inscribed on the east gate of Moria -- including both Quenya (the language of >> the Noldor) and Sindarin (essentially the common Tongue among Elves and Men >> until displaced by Westron). > >'A dwarf!' said Haldir. 'That is not well. We have not had dealings with >Dwarves since the Dark Days. They are not permitted in our land. I >cannot allow him to pass.' 'Welcome!' the Elf then said again in the Common Language, speaking slowly. 'We seldom use any tongue but our own; for we dwell now in the heart of the forest, and do not willingly have dealings with any other folk. Even our own kindred in the North are sundered from us. But there are some of still who go abroad for the gathering of news and the watching of our enemies, and they speak the languages of other lands. I am one. Haldir is my name. My brothers, Rumil and Oropher, speak little of your tongue.' (From "Lothlorien" in THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING) And: 'Now, friends,' said Haldir, 'you have entered the Naith of Lorien, or the Gore, as you would say, for it is the land that like like a spear- head between the arms of Silverlode and Anduin the Great. We allow no strangers to spy out the secrets of the Naith. Few indeed are permitted even to set foot here.' (Ibid.) And: 'Folly it may seem,' said Haldir. 'Indeed in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him. Yet so little faith and trust do we find now in the world beyond Lothlorien, unless maybe in Rivendell, that we dare not by our own trust endanger our land. We live now upon and island amid many perils, and our hands are more often upon the bowstring than upon the harp.' (Ibid.) >Celeborn said it was 'long' since there had been a Dwarf in Caras >Galadon. He did not say how long. Actually, Haldir says how long: He removed the bandage first from Gimli's eyes. 'Your pardon!' he said, bowing low. 'Look on us now with friendly eyes! Look and be glad, for you are the first dwarf to behold the trees of the Naith of Lorien since Durin's Day!' (Ibid.) We can deduce that "Durin's Day" refers to the time of Durin VI because if it were applied to Durin I the Deathless, there was no Lorien at the time. And it is indeed significant that both Haldir and Celeborn speak of Dwarves having visited Lorien in the past. They were not enemies of the Elves, and at least during the War of the Last Alliance and the War of the Elves and Sauron they were allies. >> >Thus, I think the no dwarves rule grew out of the latent feelings of the >> >Silvan population, which feelings were quite in line with Celeborn's similar >> >views that were reinforced by his memory of the sacking of Doriath. >> >> I think the law was composed after the Dwarves first awoke the Balrog. The >> Elves of Lorien who stayed should then have had some reason to feel >> resentment and bitterness toward Dwarves. These feelings (if they ever >> existed) appear to have cooled or vanished by the end of the Third Age, >> however, as Haldir never really expresses animosity or hostility toward >> Gimli. He is unnerved to learn that a Dwarf is travelling with the >> Fellowship, but despite the ancient law he doesn't forbid Gimli entrance to >> Lorien. > >He doesn't forbade entry because Frodo, Aragorn, and Legolas all vouch >for him, and even so, Haldir still insists upon blindfolding Gimli. This >later leads to all the Fellowship being so blindfolded. He doesn't forbid entry because he is under orders to watch for and help the Company of the Ring. 'But we had heard rumours of your coming, for the messengers of Elrond passed by Lorien on their way home up the Dimrill Stair. We had not heard of -- hobbits, or halflings, for many a long year, and did not know that any yeat dwelt in Middle-earth. You do not look evil! And since you come with an Elf of our kindred, we are willing to befriend you, as Elrond asked; though it is not our custom to lead strangers through our land. But you must stay here tonight. How many are you?' (Ibid.) Since it's highly doubtful that the apologetic Haldir sets policy for Lothlorien, and since Celeborn refers to the messages from Elrond, hopefully we can avoid any nitpicking over whether Haldir had "orders" or was just doing a favor for his personal friends from Rivendell without consulting Celeborn and Galadriel in advance. >> Celeborn was by no means a bigot. His was the warmest welcome to Gimli. > >Yeah, except for the 'trouble of his heart' when he heard Gandalf fell >and inanely told people who were still grieving over it that Gandalf >appeard to have fallen into folly... There is nothing in Celeborn's words to Gimli which reveal any prejudice toward Dwarves: 'Welcome Gimli son of Gloin! It is long indeed since we saw one of Durin's folk in Caras Galadon. But today we have broken our long law. May it be a sign that though the world is now dark better days are at hand, and that friendship shall be renewed between our peoples.' Gimli bowed low. (From "The Mirror of Galadriel", THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING) Note that he says specifically "and that friendship shall be renewed between our peoples." And: 'Alas!' said Celeborn. 'We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I know that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria.' (Ibid.) Absolutely no anti-Dwarf statements are made in that paragraph. Nothing revealing any sort of prejudice whatsoever. The Dwarves indeed stirred up the Balrog as far as Celeborn and his people should know -- they undoubtedly would have discovered the Dwarf colony of Balin before it was destroyed. Haldir mentions that he and his brothers were keeping watch on the north border because of movement in the hills the Elves had detected: 'But now we must debate no longer. Your folk must not remain on the ground. We have been keeping watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria, along the skirts of the mountains, many days ago. Wolves are howling on the wood's borders. If you have indeed come from Moria, the peril cannot be far behind. Tomorrow early you must go on.' (From "Lothlorien", FELLOWSHIP) >...He all but repudates his welcome of Gimli,... He regrets his welcome, but he does not repudiate it. >...but Galadriel saves the day by speaking of Dwarvish things to him >using the Dwarves own words for them. If Galadriel "saves the day", she does so by speaking to Celeborn: 'He would be rash indeed that said that thing,' said Galadriel gravely. 'Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life. Those that followed him knew not his mind and cannot report his full purpose. But however it may be with the guide, the followers are blameless. Do not repent of your welcome to the Dwarf. If our folk had been exiled long and far from Lothlorien, who of the Galadrim, even Celeborn the Wise, would pass nigh and would not wish to look upon their ancient home, though it had become an abode of dragons?' (From "The Mirror of Galadriel", FELLOWSHIP) Her speech to Gimli certainly ameliorates Celeborn's regret, but it is her words to Celeborn which cause him to understand better what Gimli must have felt. There was a silence. At length Celeborn spoke again. 'I did not know your plight was so evil,' he said. 'Let Gimli forget my harsh words: I spoke in the trouble of my heart. I will do what I can to aid each of you, each according to his wish and need, but especially that one of the little folk who bears the burden.' (Ibid.) Again, no anti-Dwarf sentiments, no patronization, no condescension, no disgust. >...It was *then* that Gimli 'looked up and met her eyes; and it seemed to him >that he looked suddenly into the heart of an enemy and saw there love and >understanding. Wonder came into his face, and then he smiled in answer.' >Gosh...Tolkien used the word 'enemy' in his words; I wonder why. To provide a contrast between the harshness of Celeborn's words and the softness of Galadriel's, undoubtedly. >> >Thus, I see Celeborn portrayed (unintentionally perhaps) as unwise because >> >of his acceptance of the racial distrust and dislike of dwarves and of his >> >parochial world view that failed to realize that Lorien's fate was bound >> >with the fate of all free peoples and he should have joined more actively >> >with them rather than hiding in the shadows. >> >> You're seeing things differently from the way the author portrayed them, >> however. Celeborn was not a racist. He had reason to resent Dwarves but >> does not express any such resentment in the book. He is concerned about >> the Balrog when Gimli speaks of Durin's Bane, and regrets admitting ANY of >> the Fellowship to Lorien, but his regret is only borne of concern for his >> people and quickly passes. > >He interprets Tolkien's words differently than you do. Simple as that... Ah, the old "We're all just interpreting differently" argument. No, it's not as simple as that. Whatever interpretations are being applied here, they are based on fundamentally different readings of the text. Some of you choose to focus on only portions of the text and disregard passages which clearly contradict your points. >...Celeborn was speaking to Gimli when he said 'you and all who went with >you'. And all who went with Gimli were not Dwarves -- not one of them. There is nothing of antipathy toward Dwarves in Celeborn's statement. He credits the DWARVES (i.e., Balin's colony) with reawakening the evil in Moria, and that appears indeed to have been the case. And it is Gimli who blurts out the business about Durin's Bane: 'Indeed I saw upon the bridge that which haunts our darkest dreams, I saw Durin's Bane,' said Gimli in a low voice, and dread was in his eyes. (Ibid.) Durin's Bane -- the creature which destroyed the Dwarven civilization to begin with. Until Legolas identified it as a Balrog, no one knew what it was. Not even Galadriel with her mirror. So the great terror of Moria is definitely associated with the Dwarves who awoke it. >...He did not say such a thing to Legolas who first said it was a >Balrog of Morgoth... And it doesn't look like he had much of a chance to say anything to Legolas. >...I'm sure it was also his 'concern' that led him to conclude (in a lamely >passive sort of way) that Gandalf had fallen into folly for leading the >Fellowship into the 'net of Moria'.... "That's just your interpretation. It's as simple as that." Of course, Celeborn doesn't "conclude" anything -- he merely suggests that Gandalf's actions have the appearance of folly. Neither he nor Galadriel understand why Gandalf chose to pass through Moria. But Celeborn says, "and if it were possible, one would say that at last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria." He doesn't state unequivocably that Gandalf had fallen into folly -- he merely gives voice to the impression that all the listeners in the room must have formed: that Gandalf apparently unwisely chose to enter Moria and thus pass near a very great evil. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:02:38 +0200 Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos Lines: 38 Message-ID: <378c984a.0@sahara.cablecat.com> References: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> <378c5455.0@sahara.cablecat.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sahara.cablecat.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!sahara.cablecat.com!empr1-40.cablecat.com Öjevind Lång wrote in message ... > >RLV hath written: > > >>> >>> >>>Sometimes clever and beutiful women puzzle everybody who knows them by >>>falling in love with and marrying complete nobodies. It's the eternal >>>question of "she and he". Very realistic to let the greatest female >>>personality in "The Lord of the Rings" be married a loser. >>> >>>Öjevind >> >> >>And remember, there are things JRRT never writes about, even if they must >>exist for sure. ;-) >>Maybe there is the "hidden" reason. >> >> >> R.L.V. > > >So when can we expect your great thesis entitled "Celeborn: Philosopher and >Lover"? Do you want it with illustrations? And step-by-step how-to graphics? R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Call me mead-tongue" ###### From: softrat@pobox.com (softrat) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:10:13 GMT Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - The Internet's Discussion Network Lines: 20 Message-ID: <378cc331.61479185@NEWS.SUPERNEWS.COM> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <7mf9k2$si9$5@news.worldonline.nl> <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:13:10 GMT X-Trace: 931972390.719.20 GPQZYTJZG00000000 qube-03.us-ca.remarq.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!easynet-tele!easynet.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!news.remarQ.com!not-for-mail On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:08:51 -0700, Ed Robillard wrote: >I'm not saying that Celeborn is a total idiot (he married Galadriel), >but I think Galadriel was engaging in a bit of hyperbole when saying >that Celeborn was 'accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth'. I thought that Galadriel is being a good little wifey-poo here and pumping up her ot-nay oo-tay ight-bray husband. He can think, "Well, I must be great! My wife said so. And she's a high Noldo!" (IMHO, Celeborn is the most intellectually challenged elf we encounter in all Tolkien.) (Oh, goodie! He even knows about boats!) May the Farce Be With You the softrat ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 14 Jul 1999 22:59:18 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7mjtbm$fvn@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com> <27044-378C0C82-80@newsd-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7mhlsv$dh2$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <378c6e73.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <7miuo3$1mrb@drn.newsguy.com> <7mj452$c9g$3@news.worldonline.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-210.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:51:09 +0200 in article <7mj452$c9g$3@news.worldonline.nl> "db" did proclaim: > >Michael Martinez wrote in message <7miuo3$1mrb@drn.newsguy.com>... >How many >>"achievements" must I credit to him before people stop attacking this poor >>character? > >So you agree he has poor character? ;-) >db I'm beginning to feel a sympathy for him. Celeborn's ears must be burning in whatever place it is where retired fictitious characters go. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:51:09 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 10 Message-ID: <7mj452$c9g$3@news.worldonline.nl> References: <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com> <27044-378C0C82-80@newsd-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7mhlsv$dh2$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <378c6e73.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <7miuo3$1mrb@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp213-109.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 931992546 12592 195.241.213.109 (14 Jul 1999 22:49:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1999 22:49:06 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail So you agree he has poor character? ;-) db Michael Martinez wrote in message <7miuo3$1mrb@drn.newsguy.com>... How many >"achievements" must I credit to him before people stop attacking this poor >character? ###### From: Ed Robillard Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:51:34 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <7mf9k2$si9$5@news.worldonline.nl> <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com> <378c75a3.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <7mj1h9$1t43@drn.newsguy.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-Accept-Language: en Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: 15 Jul 1999 09:46:57 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Thu Jul 15 02:55:08 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Lines: 36 Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: tuor7@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ip211.seattle11.wa.pub-ip.psi.net Message-ID: <378DAF26.C654D6FD@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > On the day of Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:34:46 +0200 in article > <378c75a3.0@sahara.cablecat.com> "RLV" did proclaim: > > > >Ed Robillard wrote in message <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com>... > >>I think he is having us on by playing Devil's Advocate. > > > >You are right. I know it is difficult to distinguish this prank from his > >other far-off interpretations of the texts, but this was an intentional > >exaggeration. > > You are just bound and determined to bring your depredations from > alt.fan.tolkien over to rec.arts.books.tolkien, aren't you? No, he is NOT > right. There was nothing prankish in my article and I'll thank the both of you > to stop trying to speak for me as neither of you are qualified to do so. I said 'I think'. This means that it is *my opinion* that you were playing Devil's Advocate -- opinion, not fact. While you are welcome to disagree with statements of fact, my opinions are my own and will always remain so. They do not need your approval. I have absolutely no desire to speak for you and I try to be careful never to speak for anyone other than myself. I may or may not be right about the fact of whether or not you are playing Devil's Advocate with Celeborn, but I am entirely right about my own perception of it. For what it is worth, I think RLV should not have said 'You are right.' when refering to my opinion, as this made it appear as an assertation of fact, which it was not. But as I have no control over what he writes, it isn't my problem. Tuor ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:56:07 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7mkis1$hi6$6@news.worldonline.nl> References: <7me19m$1ghd@drn.newsguy.com> <27044-378C0C82-80@newsd-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7mhlsv$dh2$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <378c6e73.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <7miuo3$1mrb@drn.newsguy.com> <7mj452$c9g$3@news.worldonline.nl> <7mjtbm$fvn@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp201-35.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 932040385 17990 195.241.201.35 (15 Jul 1999 12:06:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 1999 12:06:25 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!news.tele2.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message <7mjtbm$fvn@drn.newsguy.com>... >>So you agree he has poor character? ;-) >>db > >I'm beginning to feel a sympathy for him. Celeborn's ears must be burning in >whatever place it is where retired fictitious characters go. Sympathy? SYMPATHY?? With a wife like that, a son-in-law like that, grandkids like that and a de facto kingdom, he doesn't need our sympathy! BTW, in his case, retired fictitious characters go to the fictitious Mandos retirement home. db ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:57:15 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 24 Message-ID: <7mkis1$hi6$7@news.worldonline.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <7mf9k2$si9$5@news.worldonline.nl> <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com> <378c75a3.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <7mj1h9$1t43@drn.newsguy.com> <378DAF26.C654D6FD@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp201-35.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 932040385 17990 195.241.201.35 (15 Jul 1999 12:06:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 1999 12:06:25 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!news.tele2.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail Well put. db Ed Robillard wrote in message <378DAF26.C654D6FD@yahoo.com>... >I said 'I think'. This means that it is *my opinion* that you were >playing Devil's Advocate -- opinion, not fact. While you are welcome to >disagree with statements of fact, my opinions are my own and will always >remain so. They do not need your approval. I have absolutely no desire >to speak for you and I try to be careful never to speak for anyone other >than myself. > >I may or may not be right about the fact of whether or not you are >playing Devil's Advocate with Celeborn, but I am entirely right about my >own perception of it. > >For what it is worth, I think RLV should not have said 'You are right.' >when refering to my opinion, as this made it appear as an assertation of >fact, which it was not. But as I have no control over what he writes, it >isn't my problem. > >Tuor > ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> <378c5455.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <378c984a.0@sahara.cablecat.com> Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Lines: 13 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.114.218 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 932048612 130.244.114.218 (Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:23:32 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:23:32 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@dialup114-4-26.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:20:01 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail RLV hath written: > > >Do you want it with illustrations? And step-by-step how-to graphics? > > Oh, if only Aubrey Beardsley was still alive! Öjevind ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:26:04 +0200 Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos Lines: 24 Message-ID: <378e0b5d.0@sahara.cablecat.com> References: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> <378c5455.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <378c984a.0@sahara.cablecat.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sahara.cablecat.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!sahara.cablecat.com!empr1-40.cablecat.com Öjevind Lång wrote in message ... > >RLV hath written: >> > >> >>Do you want it with illustrations? And step-by-step how-to graphics? >> >> >Oh, if only Aubrey Beardsley was still alive! Uh? Or, put in more articulate terms: who was that lady? R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Call me mead-tongue" ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> <378c5455.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <378c984a.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <378e0b5d.0@sahara.cablecat.com> Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Lines: 26 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.55.94 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 932056535 130.244.55.94 (Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:35:35 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:35:35 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@dialup55-2-30.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:32:04 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail RLV hath written: > >Öjevind Lång wrote in message ... >> >>Oh, if only Aubrey Beardsley was still alive! > > >Uh? > >Or, put in more articulate terms: who was that lady? > > A man in fact: an English artist (1872-98) of the art nouveau school. He is well-known for his sensuous drawings of rather erotic-looking, scantily clad women. He is perhaps most famous for his illustrations of Oscar Wilde's "Salome". Öjevind Grimly, the Balrog faced the firing squad. Even in the ace of death, it was inflappable. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 16 Jul 1999 00:19:59 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 135 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 With all the Celeborn-bashing going on, I will just have to delurk for the first time in this group. Michael Martinez writes: > > arain02@FSUNI.rz.uni-passau.de did proclaim: > > > >On 12 Jul 1999 23:29:47 -0700, Michael Martinez > > > >>Celeborn towers above the others. He is Good Incarnate, Loyalty and > >>Faithfulness, Wisdom and Courage. It's no wonder Galadriel stayed with him > >>all those millenia. Being at the start quite a hothead (she was one of the leaders of the Noldor leaving Valinor) she most likely found an good mentor in him. Much of her greatness would have not happend without him (nor without her past I should add). > >correctly, Celeborn was just mentioned in a few sentences in LOTR, > >certainly not enough to draw all the above conclusions. Could you > >please cite the appropriate passages from LOTR (or any other works or > >letters by JRRT) that substantiate your claim? Silm (a bit) and UL (the bigger part) OK? > That would be one of the longest citations in history. I'm afraid > you'll have > to just take my word for it that I see these things in Celeborn. That argument ("take my word") is a non starter. Either cite or keep quiet! So I will cite: we actually have quite a bit on Celeborn: - His relationship (grandson of younger brother) to Thingol, who was also wise (and one of the few great Sindar named). [UT] - His being victim (loss of his home) as consequence of Thingols non-wise grab (indirectly via Beren as tool) for the Silmaril [Silm] - His seeing of how this undid all Thingol had fought for (destruction of his life and kingdom he had so long successfully protected) [Silm] - His seeing Celebrimbor repeat with the Rings the mistake of Feanor in making the Silmarils (C having the part of being the wise one from experience who was ignored) [UT] - His seeing Eregion and Celebrinbor being destroyed and losing his home for the second time to such follies [UT] - His seeing how Galadriel used Nenya to make Lorien what it is, but at the same time made its undoing (and increased her longing to - His seeing how Galadriel used Nenya to make Lorien what it is, but at the same time made its undoing (and increased her longing to leave ME [UT]). This would give a good base derived from experience for the noticed wise behaviour of being completely immune to desire for the ring. And to any desire for power. > He is a great Elven character. Definitely. > Most of them really don't achieve much Most wise are more conspicious by their inactivity than by activism. See also the Istari being explicitely demanded to be inactive, and Saruman failling be not doing so. Heroes are active and suffer for it. Wise restrain themselves and suffer from being shunned. See also the remarks on Gollum missinterpreting Frodos wisdom as softness. [TT, 4th book] > -- Celeborn all but > assures the success of the Quest of Mount Doom. Well that is a bit over the top. He may be crucial, but to say "assure" goes a bit far. The quest could have failled even with the boats. Hero (ehm wise) worshipping by Martinez? > He is vastly undercredited for his contribution. In this group, yes. But not by Galadriel! She (in the no doubt existing discussions of the two of them between the messengers and the walkers arivals) must have notised his wisdom of being totally free of the urge she felt in herself (from the effects Melkor had on her in Valinor [UT, she sees the effects on Feanor but not on the other Nolder and herself]). While she _knew_ how bad it would be to take the Ring, she still had doubts that she would be wise enough, to live up to her knowledge. Consequently she was relieved to find that she passed the test (I pass the test, I will diminish and go into the west and remain Galadriel [TFotR, 2nd book]). So yes, Celeborn definitely has a lot of hidden depth. This also allows us to speculate on why she made the statement that Celeborn is "the wisest of the Elves of Middle-Earth": a) she knows he beats her at being wise (and she is already good at it) as shown above b) she notices that the walkers (like the posters here) are not taking Celeborn for full (wisdom usually is only detected after the fact, a short meeting is not enough, nor 2 book passages) c) possibly an futile attempt to direct the others to rely on Celeborn and not her, as she does not yet trust her own councels she will give, because she has not yet passed the test (as Frodo does anyway, so this fails, it was most likely futile). This may also be why she does not give any councel (see how evasive she is in the mirror bit). Annother speculation: Galadriel may under "Elves of Middle-Earth" mean Sindar/Falathrim/Nandor/Avari. Classifying Vanyar/Noldor as "Elves of Aman". And annother speculation: Tolkien put Celeborn in there to demonstrate how Thingol should have behaved. And so he was rewarded by actually being the only "famous" elf (apart from Thranduil) to stay on in the fourth age after the last Noldor had gone (after G left ME, C left the empty Lorien and went to Rivendell, to the sons of Elrond). He was fully satisfied with life in ME, even if it meant separation from his wife (who after all did fail the _real_ _last_ test: of diminishing to an normal life in ME, "and they lived happy ever after", as any good fairy tale should end :-)). -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it ###### X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.11 R/C2428 via ANUBIS V 1.05 / ZSort V 1.51a Message-ID: <7KwLL1BnhWB@p-overlord.amt.comlink.de> X-Gateway: ZCONNECT UC cl-hh.comlink.de [DUUCP BETA vom 30.12.1998] References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <378a1557.140481216@news.earthlink.net> <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> From: overlord@amt.comlink.de (Simon Krahnke) Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 15 Jul 1999 05:00:00 +0200 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Distribution: world Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!news.hamburg.pop.de!cl-hh.comlink.de!amt.comlink.de!P-OVERLORD.amt.comlink.de!overlord Michael@xenite.org wrote: > It was Celeborn, not Galadriel, who came up with the idea of boats. That's not such a big thing. Boats go faster, Celborn had boats. The company had to follow a river, which is best done by boat. Any idiot could have come to that decision. mfg, simon .... far out ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 15 Jul 1999 12:06:03 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 43 Message-ID: <7mlber$2m6h@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <7mf9k2$si9$5@news.worldonline.nl> <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com> <378c75a3.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <7mj1h9$1t43@drn.newsguy.com> <378DAF26.C654D6FD@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-152.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:51:34 -0700 in article <378DAF26.C654D6FD@yahoo.com> Ed did proclaim: > > > >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> On the day of Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:34:46 +0200 in article >> <378c75a3.0@sahara.cablecat.com> "RLV" did proclaim: >> > >> >Ed Robillard wrote in message <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com>... >> >>I think he is having us on by playing Devil's Advocate. >> > >> >You are right. I know it is difficult to distinguish this prank from his >> >other far-off interpretations of the texts, but this was an intentional >> >exaggeration. >> >> You are just bound and determined to bring your depredations from >> alt.fan.tolkien over to rec.arts.books.tolkien, aren't you? No, he is NOT >> right. There was nothing prankish in my article and I'll thank the both of >> you to stop trying to speak for me as neither of you are qualified to do so. > >I said 'I think'. This means that it is *my opinion* that you were >playing Devil's Advocate In case it's not clear, my comment about "depredations" had nothing to do with you. You have been annoying in a couple of posts, but you have not been involvd in the latest AFT flame wars. I would prefer, however, that people ask me what I mean, rather than speculate on what I mean. >For what it is worth, I think RLV should not have said 'You are right.' >when refering to my opinion, as this made it appear as an assertation of >fact, which it was not. But as I have no control over what he writes, it >isn't my problem. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:44:41 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <7ml6m5$mc9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Jul 15 17:44:41 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x35.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail I basically agree with your take on Celeborn. He also might be chafing a bit at the realization that no matter what Galadriel says about him, he (and others) know who the real power is in Lorien. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 15 Jul 1999 18:04:29 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 37 Message-ID: <7mm0et$10mk@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-748.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Snippage occurs throughout. On the day of 16 Jul 1999 00:19:59 +0200 in article <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Neil did proclaim: > >With all the Celeborn-bashing going on, I will just have to delurk for >the first time in this group. > >Michael Martinez writes: >> That would be one of the longest citations in history. I'm afraid >> you'll have to just take my word for it that I see these things in >> Celeborn. > >That argument ("take my word") is a non starter. Either cite or keep quiet! I think you need to reread what I wrote. I wasn't saying "you'll have to take my word for it that Celeborn was such-and-such". >> -- Celeborn all but >> assures the success of the Quest of Mount Doom. > >Well that is a bit over the top. He may be crucial, but to say >"assure" goes a bit far. The quest could have failled even with the >boats. Hero (ehm wise) worshipping by Martinez? No. Just acknowledging that Tolkien used Celeborn to get the Fellowship past a very sticky wicket. You make some good points about Celeborn. I wasn't up to commenting on everything. Just wanted to clarify a couple of things. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 15 Jul 1999 18:07:34 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7mm0km$111h@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <378a1557.140481216@news.earthlink.net> <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <7KwLL1BnhWB@p-overlord.amt.comlink.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-763.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On the day of 15 Jul 1999 05:00:00 +0200 in article <7KwLL1BnhWB@p-overlord.amt.comlink.de> overlord@amt.comlink.de did proclaim: > >Michael@xenite.org wrote: > >> It was Celeborn, not Galadriel, who came up with the idea of boats. > >That's not such a big thing. Boats go faster, Celborn had boats. The >company had to follow a river, which is best done by boat. Any idiot >could have come to that decision. Any idiot could have said, "Well, have a safe journey walking down the western side of the river where we've seen a lot of Orc activity lately." Any idiot could also have said, "Well, I see you haven't made up your mind what to do. Hurry up and get back to me -- I have important songs to sing and so forth." Any idiot could also have said, "No one is going anywhere. I want the Ring." -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:46:51 +0200 Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos Lines: 45 Message-ID: <378e103c.0@sahara.cablecat.com> References: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> <378c5455.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <378c984a.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <378e0b5d.0@sahara.cablecat.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sahara.cablecat.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!sahara.cablecat.com!empr1-40.cablecat.com Öjevind Lång wrote in message ... > >RLV hath written: >> >>Öjevind Lång wrote in message ... >>> > > >>>Oh, if only Aubrey Beardsley was still alive! >> >> >>Uh? >> >>Or, put in more articulate terms: who was that lady? >> >> >A man in fact: Ooops! Aubrey/Audrey... an English artist (1872-98) of the art nouveau school. He is >well-known for his sensuous drawings of rather erotic-looking, scantily clad >women. He is perhaps most famous for his illustrations of Oscar Wilde's >"Salome". Mmmmm. Interesting... >Grimly, the Balrog faced the firing squad. Even in the ace of death, it was >inflappable. He was not scared because he covered his eyes with his wings. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Call me mead-tongue" ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:43:56 +0200 Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos Lines: 43 Message-ID: <378ef086.0@sahara.cablecat.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <7mf9k2$si9$5@news.worldonline.nl> <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com> <378c75a3.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <7mj1h9$1t43@drn.newsguy.com> <378DAF26.C654D6FD@yahoo.com> <7mlber$2m6h@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sahara.cablecat.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!195.211.211.32.MISMATCH!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!sahara.cablecat.com!empr1-40.cablecat.com Michael Martinez wrote in message <7mlber$2m6h@drn.newsguy.com>... >On the day of Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:51:34 -0700 in article ><378DAF26.C654D6FD@yahoo.com> Ed did proclaim: >> >>Michael Martinez wrote: >>> >>> On the day of Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:34:46 +0200 in article >>> <378c75a3.0@sahara.cablecat.com> "RLV" did proclaim: >>> > >>> >Ed Robillard wrote in message <378C6FC3.19DB2B2B@yahoo.com>... >>> You are just bound and determined to bring your depredations from >>> alt.fan.tolkien over to rec.arts.books.tolkien, aren't you? No, he is NOT >>> right. There was nothing prankish in my article and I'll thank the both of >>> you to stop trying to speak for me as neither of you are qualified to do so. >> >>I said 'I think'. This means that it is *my opinion* that you were >>playing Devil's Advocate > >In case it's not clear, my comment about "depredations" had nothing to do with >you. You have been annoying in a couple of posts, but you have not been involvd >in the latest AFT flame wars. Come on, Ed, you already are at the "annoying" level! Disagree with him a bit more and you will rise to the honorific rank of "unprovoked flamer" (tm). ;-) R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Call me Wingalam" ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:15:26 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7mn6l5$aid$2@news.worldonline.nl> References: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> <378c5455.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <378c984a.0@sahara.cablecat.com> <378e0b5d.0@sahara.cablecat.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp213-246.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 932126181 10829 195.241.213.246 (16 Jul 1999 11:56:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jul 1999 11:56:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.tele2.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail I've got you now! That Balrog was sentenced to death for violating a NO FLYING zone!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! db Öjevind Lång wrote in message ... >Grimly, the Balrog faced the firing squad. Even in the ace of death, it was >inflappable. > > ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:53:00 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 155 Message-ID: <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp213-246.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 932126182 10829 195.241.213.246 (16 Jul 1999 11:56:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jul 1999 11:56:22 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!isdnet!news.belnet.be!newshub.bart.net!news.tele2.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail Neil Franklin wrote in message <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>... >With all the Celeborn-bashing going on, I will just have to delurk for >the first time in this group. See, some good was bound to come from it. >Being at the start quite a hothead (she was one of the leaders of the >Noldor leaving Valinor) she most likely found an good mentor in him. >Much of her greatness would have not happend without him (nor without >her past I should add). Perhaps. There would have been better ones. But you could argue that opposites attract (should we start using the Tilde, just to make sure?) >So I will cite: we actually have quite a bit on Celeborn: > >- His relationship (grandson of younger brother) to Thingol, who was >also wise (and one of the few great Sindar named). Thingol (actually, like C) was not all that wise. Again, he also married a woman greater than himself, and bathed in her greatness and radiance. Like C, there are many instances where Melian has to step in and correct her hubby, as he's likely to put his foot in his mouth. The similarities between Lorien and Doriath, their rulers and means of survival are to strong and too many to ignore. [UT] >- His being victim (loss of his home) as consequence of Thingols >non-wise grab (indirectly via Beren as tool) for the Silmaril [Silm] >- His seeing of how this undid all Thingol had fought for (destruction >of his life and kingdom he had so long successfully protected) [Silm] >- His seeing Celebrimbor repeat with the Rings the mistake of Feanor >in making the Silmarils (C having the part of being the wise one from >experience who was ignored) [UT] >- His seeing Eregion and Celebrinbor being destroyed and losing his >home for the second time to such follies [UT] >- His seeing how Galadriel used Nenya to make Lorien what it is, but >at the same time made its undoing (and increased her longing to Without Nenya. Lorien's demise would have started much earlier, being simpy another part of ME. >This would give a good base derived from experience for the noticed >wise behaviour of being completely immune to desire for the ring. And >to any desire for power. He seemed to have no desire for the One. As for power, he was Lord of the Galadhrim. That was a voluntary position. He had a desire for power alright, albeit one that was not unhealthy. >Most wise are more conspicious by their inactivity than by activism. >See also the Istari being explicitely demanded to be inactive, and >Saruman failling be not doing so. You equate inactivity with absence of forceful action. The Istari were _NOT_ demanded to be inactive at all, they had very specific missions. Direct action was never a part of those missions but rallying the forces of good was, among other things. >Heroes are active and suffer for it. Wise restrain themselves and >suffer from being shunned. You can be wise and a hero. >She (in the no doubt existing discussions of the two of them between >the messengers and the walkers arivals) must have notised his wisdom >of being totally free of the urge she felt in herself (from the >effects Melkor had on her in Valinor [UT, she sees the effects on >Feanor but not on the other Nolder and herself]). That's put too simply. Galadriel has a totally different background. As you stated yourself, Celeborn can easily be thought to have a dislike for all things Noldorin, and all things made for power. That does not necessarily make him wise, those are just the lessons life has taught _him_. Galadriel is a Noldorin Elf, and is much more prone to adding to her own considerable power by any "mechanical" means that she may. She's aware of this, and so does not fall into the trap of the One. >This also allows us to speculate on why she made the statement that >Celeborn is "the wisest of the Elves of Middle-Earth": She does not say "is". > >a) she knows he beats her at being wise (and she is already good at >it) as shown above Nowhere made clear, or even likely. >b) she notices that the walkers (like the posters here) are not >taking Celeborn for full Where is that shown? >(wisdom usually is only detected after the >fact, a short meeting is not enough, nor 2 book passages) >c) possibly an futile attempt to direct the others to rely on Celeborn >and not her, as she does not yet trust her own councels she will give, >because she has not yet passed the test (as Frodo does anyway, so this >fails, it was most likely futile). This may also be why she does not >give any councel (see how evasive she is in the mirror bit). She gives no council for the reason all elves don't: "...advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, an all courses may run ill." (Gildor, also a Noldo, speaking to Frodo in Three is company, FotR). Good reason, too. >Annother speculation: Galadriel may under "Elves of Middle-Earth" mean >Sindar/Falathrim/Nandor/Avari. Classifying Vanyar/Noldor as "Elves of >Aman". No, I think it would mean "the elves that live in ME" >And annother speculation: Tolkien put Celeborn in there to demonstrate >how Thingol should have behaved. He did no better, I think. Thingol got himself killed through his greed and arrogance, and as a consequence, his empire too was destroyed. But on the other handhe was the father of Luthien and the forefather of all her kin, Beren would not have liberated a Silmaril if Thingol had not asked one as a dowry, etc. >And so he was rewarded by actually being the only "famous" elf (apart >from Thranduil) to stay on in the fourth age after the last Noldor had >gone (after G left ME, C left the empty Lorien and went to Rivendell, >to the sons of Elrond). He was fully satisfied with life in ME Because he knew no better >even >if it meant separation from his wife (who after all did fail the >_real_ _last_ test: of diminishing to an normal life in ME She did know better. And if he lacked at least the curiosity to see what Aman was like, where all the _MAJOR_ elves live, well if you felt no need to question his wits until now... But he did well to stay in Rivendell. There he was king of the hill, in Aman he would probably not even get himself hired as Galadriel's janitor... db ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 16 Jul 1999 14:57:07 GMT References: <7mlber$2m6h@drn.newsguy.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Message-ID: <19990716105707.06183.00000401@ngol08.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newscon02!prodigy.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <7mlber$2m6h@drn.newsguy.com>, Michael Martinez writes: >In case it's not clear, my comment about "depredations" had nothing to do >with >you. You have been annoying in a couple of posts, but you have not been >involvd >in the latest AFT flame wars. > >I would prefer, however, that people ask me what I mean, rather than >speculate >on what I mean. In his defense, I too thought your comment on Celeborn was tongue in cheek. I don't think his statement was meant to offend or put words in your mouth. Russ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 17 Jul 1999 03:03:30 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 241 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6u7lo0cckd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "db" writes: > > Neil Franklin wrote in message <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>... > >With all the Celeborn-bashing going on, I will just have to delurk for > > See, some good was bound to come from it. :-) > >Much of her greatness would have not happend without him (nor without > >her past I should add). > > Perhaps. There would have been better ones. But you could argue that > opposites attract Well, a pupil will learn more, the more the teacher is different. At least, as long as the difference is not so big, that the two can not get on with each other (here definitely not the case). > >- His relationship (grandson of younger brother) to Thingol, who was > >also wise (and one of the few great Sindar named). > > Thingol (actually, like C) was not all that wise. Again, he also married a > woman greater than himself, That definitely, even more so, her being an Maiar. > and bathed in her greatness and radiance. Like > C, there are many instances where Melian has to step in and correct her > hubby, as he's likely to put his foot in his mouth. In a few cases, but most likely nowhere near the majority of things he did. Even the wise sometimes make mistakes, they do not need to be infallible. The measurement of their wisdom is in a) how seldom they err, and b) how they take to having an mistake pointed out. Both Celeborn and Thingol pass both of these tests. > The similarities between > Lorien and Doriath, their rulers and means of survival are to strong and too > many to ignore. That definitively. See my claim about Celeborn being the corrected Thingol. > >- His seeing how Galadriel used Nenya to make Lorien what it is, but > >at the same time made its undoing (and increased her longing to > > Without Nenya. Lorien's demise would have started much earlier, being simpy > another part of ME. Actually, without Nenya there would be nothing to demise from. Lorien would have more been an second Rivendell or even an second north Mirkwood. Possibly with the exeption of the effects of Dol Guldur (although Sauron may have never chosen that place without the effects of Nenya being there). > >This would give a good base derived from experience for the noticed > >wise behaviour of being completely immune to desire for the ring. And > >to any desire for power. > > He seemed to have no desire for the One. As for power, he was Lord of the > Galadhrim. That was a voluntary position. He had a desire for power alright, > albeit one that was not unhealthy. He had power, definitely. But my above remark was about the reasons, _why_ he did not have this unhealty desire for more. This came from his experiences which tought him, that it is unhealthy. And that is one thing wisdom is about: to know where limits are and to respect them in ones actions. > >Most wise are more conspicious by their inactivity than by activism. > >See also the Istari being explicitely demanded to be inactive, and > >Saruman failling be not doing so. > > You equate inactivity with absence of forceful action. The Istari were _NOT_ > demanded to be inactive at all, they had very specific missions. Direct > action was never a part of those missions but rallying the forces of good > was, among other things. I was a bit imprecise there. I was thinking of forcefull action. That was forbidden to them, because it being bad in the long run. The same grabbing the Ring and using it would be bad for anyone. Celeborns wisdom was sufficient to stop him even being tempted in that direction, while nearly all others were tempted. > >Heroes are active and suffer for it. Wise restrain themselves and > >suffer from being shunned. > > You can be wise and a hero. But that is very seldom. Most wise actively avoid becoming heros if it is possible (but will become so if it is neccessary). > stated yourself, Celeborn can easily be thought to have a dislike for all > things Noldorin, and all things made for power. Not neccessarily things for power, but more too larger power. Another trait of the wise: recognizing the concept of "too much", even in basically desirable things. > That does not necessarily > make him wise, those are just the lessons life has taught _him_. And what is wisdon, if it is not the effect that lifes lessons have on someone, who has learned the lessons to the extent of applying them? > Galadriel is a Noldorin Elf, and is much more prone to adding to her own > considerable power by any "mechanical" means that she may. She's aware of > this, and so does not fall into the trap of the One. She has also become wise over the years. But even so, she still feared to fail the test. > >This also allows us to speculate on why she made the statement that > >Celeborn is "the wisest of the Elves of Middle-Earth": > > She does not say "is". Precisely she says "is accounted". But I doubt she would say that, if she was not in agreement with this claim. I simply think she is being modest here, not wanting to be seen as saying "look what a great husband I have here". > >a) she knows he beats her at being wise (and she is already good at > >it) as shown above > > Nowhere made clear, or even likely. The reaction to the chance of getting the ring. He is definitely safe, she still fears she may fail. And she knows both of these beforehand. > >b) she notices that the walkers (like the posters here) are not > >taking Celeborn for full > > Where is that shown? I have just reread the bit I was thinking of. Seems I missmemorised it. So I drop that claim. Luckily it was not crucial to my argumentation. > >fails, it was most likely futile). This may also be why she does not > >give any councel (see how evasive she is in the mirror bit). > > She gives no council for the reason all elves don't: "...advice is a > dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, an all courses may run ill." Council can be dangerous. But avoiding danger at all cost (= too much) s not particularly wise. Facing neccessary danger and being cautious would be better (including giving what one knows about the limits of ones council). Celeborn gave council about the boats and it was after all succesfull. > >Annother speculation: Galadriel may under "Elves of Middle-Earth" mean > >Sindar/Falathrim/Nandor/Avari. Classifying Vanyar/Noldor as "Elves of > >Aman". > > No, I think it would mean "the elves that live in ME" Here we hit the limits of English language. "of" can be either "residing in" or "coming from / born in". I suppose we will have to leave this one as a matter of interpretation. > >And annother speculation: Tolkien put Celeborn in there to demonstrate > >how Thingol should have behaved. > > He did no better, I think. Thingol got himself killed through his greed and > arrogance, and as a consequence, his empire too was destroyed. Celeborn was not killed, nor his people. I would call that a success relative to Thingol. (That Cs empire also came to an end by the loss of Nenyas power was not of his doing, nor avoidable) > But on the > other handhe was the father of Luthien and the forefather of all her > kin, Which was not of his making, as he actually tried to prevent it. > Beren would not have liberated a Silmaril if Thingol had not asked one as a > dowry, etc. Sure. Thingol demanded (and died). Celeborn did not grab (and survived). > >And so he was rewarded by actually being the only "famous" elf (apart > >from Thranduil) to stay on in the fourth age after the last Noldor had > >gone (after G left ME, C left the empty Lorien and went to Rivendell, > >to the sons of Elrond). He was fully satisfied with life in ME > > Because he knew no better I doubt that one! In 7000 years of marriage he definitely picked up a lot about Valinor. But it was not home to him (unlike for Galadriel). He was satisfied with ME, unlike her who was longing for home. > >_real_ _last_ test: of diminishing to an normal life in ME > > She did know better. Or rather she had a different background and from that desires. > And if he lacked at least the curiosity to see what > Aman was like, where all the _MAJOR_ elves live, well if you felt no need to > question his wits until now... I also doubt that that makes him witless. Just (possibly only temporally) satisfied. He may change his mind later, after a few thousand years of ME as it is in the fourth age. > But he did well to stay in Rivendell. There he was king of the hill, in Aman > he would probably not even get himself hired as Galadriel's janitor... He would still be the leader of the Lorien elves in Aman. And Galadriels husband. No change likely in that. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it ###### X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.11 R/C2428 via ANUBIS V 1.05 / ZSort V 1.51a Message-ID: <7L3ddpl2hWB@p-overlord.amt.comlink.de> X-Gateway: ZCONNECT UC cl-hh.comlink.de [DUUCP BETA vom 30.12.1998] References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7KwLL1BnhWB@p-overlord.amt.comlink.de> <7mm0km$111h@drn.newsguy.com> From: overlord@amt.comlink.de (Simon Krahnke) Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 17 Jul 1999 00:17:00 +0200 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Distribution: world Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!news.hamburg.pop.de!cl-hh.comlink.de!amt.comlink.de!P-OVERLORD.amt.comlink.de!overlord Michael@xenite.org schrieb am Do 15.07.99 um 18:07: >> That's not such a big thing. Boats go faster, Celborn had boats. The >> company had to follow a river, which is best done by boat. Any idiot >> could have come to that decision. > > Any idiot could have said, "Well, have a safe journey walking down the > western side of the river where we've seen a lot of Orc activity lately." But he didn't say that. What's your point? mfg, simon .... take an airplane ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:47:30 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 210 Message-ID: <7mq245$gjt$2@news.worldonline.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> <6u7lo0cckd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp239-109.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 932219845 17021 195.241.239.109 (17 Jul 1999 13:57:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jul 1999 13:57:25 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail Neil Franklin wrote in message <6u7lo0cckd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>... >> Without Nenya. Lorien's demise would have started much earlier, being simpy >> another part of ME. > >Actually, without Nenya there would be nothing to demise from. Lorien >would have more been an second Rivendell or even an second north >Mirkwood. Possibly with the exeption of the effects of Dol Guldur >(although Sauron may have never chosen that place without the effects >of Nenya being there). Which is what I meant to say above >Celeborns wisdom was sufficient to stop him even being tempted in that >direction, while nearly all others were tempted. But as I said, this could be explained away be saying a) He could not have as clear a picture of exactly what could be achieved by using the Onen as Galadriel does. He was a Sindarin or Telerin (not a Noldo anyway) elf, drawn towards nature and earth more than towards the things the pupils of Aule were. b) a point which could be causal to a: Most if not all of the Wise were in their way accustomed to using objects and tomes of power, in at least three cases in fact Rings of Power. It would have been a small step from one of the Three to the One. And Galadriel had used things like the Elessar before she aquired Nenya. Perhaps more than anyone else, she must have felt the attraction of the One. Greater character is shown by feeling a temptation and resisting it, than by not feeling in the first place. >> You can be wise and a hero. > >But that is very seldom. Not in LotR. Gandalf is both, so are Aragorn and Faramir. Others in their own way would qualify as well. >> That does not necessarily >> make him wise, those are just the lessons life has taught _him_. > >And what is wisdon, if it is not the effect that lifes lessons have >on someone, who has learned the lessons to the extent of applying them? I was thinking more along the lines of "putting your hand in open flame". It will teach you not to do so again, and you needn't be wise for that. >> Galadriel is a Noldorin Elf, and is much more prone to adding to her own >> considerable power by any "mechanical" means that she may. She's aware of >> this, and so does not fall into the trap of the One. > >She has also become wise over the years. But even so, she still feared >to fail the test. It cannot be denied I feel that any Noldo (and all Noldor lived in Aman and among the Valar, in the light of the Trees), but especially a Noldo that is the grandchild of Finwe would be wiser and more farsighted than what is basically an elf of darkness. >> >This also allows us to speculate on why she made the statement that >> >Celeborn is "the wisest of the Elves of Middle-Earth": >> >> She does not say "is". > >Precisely she says "is accounted". But I doubt she would say that, if >she was not in agreement with this claim. I simply think she is being >modest here, not wanting to be seen as saying "look what a great >husband I have here". But accounted implies an accounting by who? Just the Galadhrim? Or just Galadriel? Or even just Celeborn? It's been suggested before that she's _not_ being modest here, quite the contrary. She's propping her husband up, so as not to appear to dominate the meeting herself, something she cannot help as she simply _is_ the more influential person there. >> >a) she knows he beats her at being wise (and she is already good at >> >it) as shown above >> >> Nowhere made clear, or even likely. > >The reaction to the chance of getting the ring. He is definitely safe, >she still fears she may fail. And she knows both of these beforehand. I adressed this at length. No use repeating the same point without adding a fresh argument in your favor. Just rewording your case doesn't count. >> She gives no council for the reason all elves don't: "...advice is a >> dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, an all courses may run ill." > >Council can be dangerous. But avoiding danger at all cost (= too much) >s not particularly wise. Facing neccessary danger and being cautious >would be better (including giving what one knows about the limits of >ones council). Celeborn gave council about the boats and it was after >all succesfull. Much has been made of C's advice to travel by boat. This council is sound, however it is of an entirely different order than say "should I go to Mordr or to Minas Tirith". It's the difference between where you want to go, and how to get there. Which do you think is more important? >> >Annother speculation: Galadriel may under "Elves of Middle-Earth" mean >> >Sindar/Falathrim/Nandor/Avari. Classifying Vanyar/Noldor as "Elves of >> >Aman". >> >> No, I think it would mean "the elves that live in ME" > >Here we hit the limits of English language. "of" can be either >"residing in" or "coming from / born in". I suppose we will have to >leave this one as a matter of interpretation. If you like. I will then finish with this: All elves were at one time elves of ME. Your classification is insofar invalid in that distorts the respective translations of the two major types of elves. The one type are the Calaquendi, the ones that saw the light of the two trees (came from ME, but traveled to Aman). The other type are the Moriquendi, also came from ME but at various point refused to travel to Aman and never saw the light of the Trees. This is why classifying C as the wisest of elves of ME the way you do would make him wisest of _all_ elves, no matter where they live. >> >And annother speculation: Tolkien put Celeborn in there to demonstrate >> >how Thingol should have behaved. >> >> He did no better, I think. Thingol got himself killed through his greed and >> arrogance, and as a consequence, his empire too was destroyed. > >Celeborn was not killed, nor his people. I would call that a success >relative to Thingol. (That Cs empire also came to an end by the loss >of Nenyas power was not of his doing, nor avoidable) True, but let me finish... > > >> But on the >> other handhe was the father of Luthien and the forefather of all her >> kin, > >Which was not of his making, as he actually tried to prevent it. At first yes, but in the end he was still not forced to give Luthien's hand. Berend had not fulfilled his quest, and would never have done so if it hadn't been for Thingol and his most powerful lieutenants. Thingol of free will decided to aid Beren. >> Beren would not have liberated a Silmaril if Thingol had not asked one as a >> dowry, etc. > >Sure. Thingol demanded (and died). Celeborn did not grab (and survived). And Thingol, though unwittingly, and later dead, provided the only opportunity for a Silmaril to be freed. >> >And so he was rewarded by actually being the only "famous" elf (apart >> >from Thranduil) to stay on in the fourth age after the last Noldor had >> >gone (after G left ME, C left the empty Lorien and went to Rivendell, >> >to the sons of Elrond). He was fully satisfied with life in ME >> >> Because he knew no better > >I doubt that one! In 7000 years of marriage he definitely picked up a lot >about Valinor. But it was not home to him (unlike for Galadriel). He >was satisfied with ME, unlike her who was longing for home. You can tell me all you like about a country, even show me pics, but until I've been there, I'll never long for it or get homesick. >> >_real_ _last_ test: of diminishing to an normal life in ME >> >> She did know better. > >Or rather she had a different background and from that desires. Same difference. >> But he did well to stay in Rivendell. There he was king of the hill, in Aman >> he would probably not even get himself hired as Galadriel's janitor... > >He would still be the leader of the Lorien elves in Aman. There's no way of telling that. The elves in _my_ view would quite probably have remingled themselves with their long lost relatives, and Celeborn might still have been an influential figure, but no longer the top ruler. In fact, Ölwe, Thingol's brother would in all likelyhood have become leader of the new influx as well. >And >Galadriels husband. No change likely in that. Agreed. db ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 18 Jul 1999 00:04:49 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 290 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> <6u7lo0cckd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mq245$gjt$2@news.worldonline.nl> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "db" writes: > > Neil Franklin wrote in message <6u7lo0cckd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>... > > >> Without Nenya. Lorien's demise would have started much earlier, being > > > >Actually, without Nenya there would be nothing to demise from. Lorien > > Which is what I meant to say above OK. > >Celeborns wisdom was sufficient to stop him even being tempted in that > >direction, while nearly all others were tempted. > > a) He could not have > as clear a picture of exactly what could be achieved by using the Onen as > Galadriel does. I doubt that claim. He definitely knows (from seeing it) what can be achieved with Nenya. And that the One is even more powerfull he definitely knows. As to how much more powerfull and what it can do, he most likely knows less than Galadriel (or Elrond, or Gandalf). But I doubt that even they really know how powerfull it is, as none of them are of evil character. I would assume, that only Sauron really knows what the One can do. > He was a Sindarin or Telerin (not a Noldo anyway) elf, He is a Sindarin, which is a subgroup of Telerin (the subgroup that wanted to stay with Elwe Thingol). To be precise he is the grandson of Elmo, Elwes younger brother. > drawn > towards nature and earth more than towards the things the pupils of Aule > were. Drawn more, but I would doubt that to mean drawn exclusively. > cases in fact Rings of Power. It would have been a small step from one of > the Three to the One. And Galadriel had used things like the Elessar before > she aquired Nenya. Perhaps more than anyone else, she must have felt the > attraction of the One. Interesting thought. Sort of progression to more power. Certainly made it more difficult for her. But that would not make it impossible for Celeborn to desire the One. > Greater character is shown by feeling a temptation > and resisting it, than by not feeling in the first place. I just rethought the last past (the not feeling): we really only have evidence (in LotR) that he did not attempt to grab. His feelings are not documented. So we are both speculating here. So perhaps we should drop this point. > >> You can be wise and a hero. > > > >But that is very seldom. > > Not in LotR. Gandalf is both, so are Aragorn and Faramir. Others in their > own way would qualify as well. And there are many non-heroic wise: Cirdan, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn (if you accept him as wise), Thingol (same caveat). And there are non-wise heroes: Feanor, his sons, Turin, Boromir So it definitely is not a must for the wise to be heroic. > >> That does not necessarily > >> make him wise, those are just the lessons life has taught _him_. > > > >And what is wisdon, if it is not the effect that lifes lessons have > >on someone, who has learned the lessons to the extent of applying them? > > I was thinking more along the lines of "putting your hand in open flame". It > will teach you not to do so again, and you needn't be wise for that. Experience does not need to lead to wisdom. But wisdom does come from experience. And in his case the experiences are there and the wise bahaviour they would lead to. > It cannot be denied I feel that any Noldo (and all Noldor lived in Aman and > among the Valar, in the light of the Trees), but especially a Noldo that is > the grandchild of Finwe would be wiser and more farsighted than what is > basically an elf of darkness. That is actually an interesting question: What effect does being a calaquendi have relative to being an moriquendi? What did the elves get from pre-darkness Aman? Definitively an view of greatness and peace. But not neccessarily wisdom. See the case of Feanor and his sons (also child and grandchildren of Finwe). And actually all Noldor which left. Actually if wisdom requires experiences (as I claim) then the protected world of Aman would be bad at producing it. It even becomes more complicated in Celeborns case, as IIRC the Sindar are named gray elves, because they are sort of half way in between (Thingol is a calaquendi and Melian is a Maiar, so they have at least an indirct view of Aman). > >Precisely she says "is accounted". But I doubt she would say that, if > >she was not in agreement with this claim. I simply think she is being > > But accounted implies an accounting by who? Just the Galadhrim? Or just > Galadriel? Or even just Celeborn? Who? Good question. As Galadriel is making the claim, I would assume at least by her, and most likey also the majority of those she regards as her peers (at least as far as it is her impression of their accounts). > It's been suggested before that she's _not_ being modest here, quite the > contrary. She's propping her husband up, so as not to appear to dominate the [second reread of that part] Not propping up (which would implicate there is noting there) but rather trying to convey the not easily visible case for there being a lot there, quasi more than meets the eye. > meeting herself, something she cannot help as she simply _is_ the more > influential person there. In this scene definitely. > >> She gives no council for the reason all elves don't: "...advice is a > > > >Council can be dangerous. But avoiding danger at all cost (= too much) > >s not particularly wise. Facing neccessary danger and being cautious > >would be better (including giving what one knows about the limits of > > however it is of an entirely different order than say "should I go to Mordr > or to Minas Tirith". It's the difference between where you want to go, and > how to get there. Which do you think is more important? The later is surely more important. But simply giving no advice at all still remains not the most sensible line. Giving council, including an explanation of the caveats, would be better. > >> >Annother speculation: Galadriel may under "Elves of Middle-Earth" mean > >> >Sindar/Falathrim/Nandor/Avari. Classifying Vanyar/Noldor as "Elves of > >> >Aman". > >> > >> No, I think it would mean "the elves that live in ME" > > > >Here we hit the limits of English language. "of" can be either > >"residing in" or "coming from / born in". I suppose we will have to > >leave this one as a matter of interpretation. > > If you like. I will then finish with this: All elves were at one time elves > of ME. That they were. But that interpretation would then beg the question, what an "elf not of ME" is. After all, such an "of" clause implies others who are not "of" it. > the Calaquendi, the ones that saw the light of the two trees (came from ME, > but traveled to Aman). The other type are the Moriquendi, also came from ME > but at various point refused to travel to Aman and never saw the light of > the Trees. And only after having two groups does the "of" become meaningfull. Here it can only refer to the 2 different histories. So Galadriels claim may actually only mean that Celeborn is the wisest of those who were not in Aman (and possibly also descending from them). Actually I like this interpretation, because if makes the line somethong like this: Galadriel (calaquendi) > Elrond (descendant from calaqendi (Turgon)) ? Celeborn (wisest moriquendi) > Cirdan+Thranduil (moriquendi), which to me seems to come close. BTW: Said by Galadriel it implies Galadriel > Celeborn without being in-the-face about it. I am actually surprised that you did not jump for that one. > This is why classifying C as the wisest of elves of ME the way you do would > make him wisest of _all_ elves, no matter where they live. Nope. Only of the moriquendi. Which I think he may well be. > >> >And annother speculation: Tolkien put Celeborn in there to demonstrate > >> >how Thingol should have behaved. > > > >Celeborn was not killed, nor his people. I would call that a success > > True, but let me finish... > > > >> other handhe was the father of Luthien and the forefather of all her > >> kin, > > > >Which was not of his making, as he actually tried to prevent it. > > At first yes, but in the end he was still not forced to give Luthien's hand. > Berend had not fulfilled his quest, and would never have done so if it > hadn't been for Thingol and his most powerful lieutenants. Thingol of free > will decided to aid Beren. I got the impression (I have only read Silm once) that he helped hunt the wolf because of the damage it was doing to his land and because of his desire of the Silmaril. Helping Beren was an side effect. And once he had the Silmaril, largely due to Berens work. He sort of had to give Luthiens hand. > >> Beren would not have liberated a Silmaril if Thingol had not asked one as > > > >Sure. Thingol demanded (and died). Celeborn did not grab (and survived). > > And Thingol, though unwittingly, and later dead, provided the only > opportunity for a Silmaril to be freed. An error can lead to success. But it remains an error, at least from Thingols point of view of staying alive and protecting his people. That it paved the way for ending the wars of the jewel is irelevant for the case of Celeborns behaviour being wiser than Thingols (T did not grab the Silmaril with intention to send it to Aman). > >I doubt that one! In 7000 years of marriage he definitely picked up a lot > >about Valinor. But it was not home to him (unlike for Galadriel). He > >was satisfied with ME, unlike her who was longing for home. > > You can tell me all you like about a country, even show me pics, but until > I've been there, I'll never long for it or get homesick. Homesick sort of requires coming from there. But longing? That only requires coming to the conclusion that being there would be nice. And the base for such longing is actually already in every Sindar, as the case of Legolas demostrates, as soon as he got near to the coast. > >> She did know better. > > > >Or rather she had a different background and from that desires. > > Same difference. "Different desires" is not equal to "know better". For different people dirrerent things may be the better outcome for them. > >He would still be the leader of the Lorien elves in Aman. > > There's no way of telling that. The elves in _my_ view would quite probably > have remingled themselves with their long lost relatives, Ehm. The Galadhrim were mainly Nandor, not Noldor. So I would assume them to keep their own identity in Tol Eressea. With C/G as their lords. > still have been an influential figure, but no longer the top ruler. In fact, > Ölwe, Thingol's brother would in all likelyhood have become leader of the > new influx as well. I doubt he really would need being top ruler, after all staying in ME he is not top ruler any more because his people have largely gone. I still here see one who does not want power, because he has learned how bad it is. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 17 Jul 1999 11:05:59 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 25 Message-ID: <7mqgm7$1clv@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7KwLL1BnhWB@p-overlord.amt.comlink.de> <7mm0km$111h@drn.newsguy.com> <7L3ddpl2hWB@p-overlord.amt.comlink.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-500.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On 17 Jul 1999 00:17:00 +0200, in article <7L3ddpl2hWB@p-overlord.amt.comlink.de>, overlord@amt.comlink.de resolved to say for all to read and review: > >Michael@xenite.org schrieb am Do 15.07.99 um 18:07: > >>> That's not such a big thing. Boats go faster, Celborn had boats. The >>> company had to follow a river, which is best done by boat. Any idiot >>> could have come to that decision. >> >> Any idiot could have said, "Well, have a safe journey walking down the >> western side of the river where we've seen a lot of Orc activity lately." > >But he didn't say that. What's your point? Technically, the Company's path did not really lie along the river. They needed to cross it to get to Mordor, or they needed to leave it behind to get to Minas Tirith. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: jessie shelton Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:38:09 -0400 Organization: Princeton University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7mreov$4vn$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6u7lo0cckd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mq245$gjt$2@news.worldonline.nl> <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: shelton.student.princeton.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!news.cc.ukans.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!cnn.Princeton.EDU!usenet Steuard Jensen wrote: > [Steuard attempts to banish all thoughts of "Tickle Me Celeborn" from > his mind.] Gah! You are an evil, evil man. jessie (...and how am I supposed to get *this* out of the keyboard, let alone my shirt?) -- jessie shelton (one side of moebius) shelton(AT)princeton.edu http://www.princeton.edu/~shelton "There are trivial truths and there are great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." -- Niels Bohr --------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: harper.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6u7lo0cckd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mq245$gjt$2@news.worldonline.nl> <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 01:53:06 GMT Lines: 41 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!coop.net!ncar!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth Neil Franklin : > "db" writes: > > He was a Sindarin or Telerin (not a Noldo anyway) elf, > > He is a Sindarin, which is a subgroup of Telerin (the subgroup that > wanted to stay with Elwe Thingol). To be precise he is the grandson > of Elmo, Elwes younger brother. [Steuard attempts to banish all thoughts of "Tickle Me Celeborn" from his mind.] Actually, the textual situation is a good bit more complicated than this (which presumably is what db was referring to). The following are all taken from Christopher Tolkien's commentart at the beginning of "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in _Unfinished Tales_: 1) "...In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey from Cuivienen)." (Refers to the apparent situation at the time FotR was written.) 2) "In _The Silmarillion_ there is mention of the meeting of Galadriel and Celeborn in Doriath, and of his kinship with Thingol" (Also corresponds to information directly stated in the Appendices.) 3) "...There she met Celeborn, who is here again a Telerin prince, the grandson of Olwe of Alqualonde and thus her close kinsman" (From the last writing of JRRT on Galadriel and Celeborn, and probably the last on Middle-earth at all.) So, Celeborn's history wasn't ever firmly fixed, although it was rather uncharacteristic of Tolkien to make such a substantial alteration of published material, which at least in the case of LotR he generally regarded as "set in stone" to a substantial degree. In similar situations elsewhere, Christopher suggests that JRRT may have simply forgotten that the older story had been referred to in published work. For more information on the ramifications of the proposed change 3), I refer you to UT. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Mike Kew Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 08:43:41 +0100 Organization: Don't be so daft Message-ID: References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6u7lo0cckd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mq245$gjt$2@news.worldonline.nl> <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: kew1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: kew1.demon.co.uk:212.228.11.69 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 932286505 nnrp-09:10986 NO-IDENT kew1.demon.co.uk:212.228.11.69 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!kew1.demon.co.uk!Brandybuck On Sun, 18 Jul 1999, Steuard Jensen wrote >[Steuard attempts to banish all thoughts of "Tickle Me Celeborn" from >his mind.] You really should tilde the post, otherwise... -- Mike ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 18 Jul 1999 10:09:02 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 168 Message-ID: <7mt1ne$1q3l@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-769.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!nntp2.lotsanews.com.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Snippage has occurred throughout. On 18 Jul 1999 00:04:49 +0200, in article <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil resolved to say for all to read and review: > >"db" writes: >> >> a) He could not have >> as clear a picture of exactly what could be achieved by using the Onen as >> Galadriel does. > >I doubt that claim. He definitely knows (from seeing it) what can be >achieved with Nenya. And that the One is even more powerfull he >definitely knows. > >As to how much more powerfull and what it can do, he most likely knows >less than Galadriel (or Elrond, or Gandalf). But I doubt that even >they really know how powerfull it is, as none of them are of evil >character. I would assume, that only Sauron really knows what the One >can do. I don't see any reason to suggest Celeborn had less knowledge of the power and peril the Rings of Power presented to him and others. If we accept the idea that Celeborn and Galadriel both lived in Eregion, he would certainly have been privy to much that was going on there. It would be uncharacteristic for Galadriel to operate behind his back. Celeborn would thus have greater knowledge of the making of the Rings than Elrond, for he was there when the Rings were made (maybe). [snip about Celeborn's Telerin/Sindarin background and ancestry] >> drawn towards nature and earth more than towards the things the pupils of >> Aule were. > >Drawn more, but I would doubt that to mean drawn exclusively. Technically, the Teleri were drawn more toward water than toward the earth. They were not, however, technologists like the Noldor. Their interests lay elsewhere. But they had the capacity to achieve great things (as occurred in Beleriand). >> cases in fact Rings of Power. It would have been a small step from one of >> the Three to the One. And Galadriel had used things like the Elessar before >> she aquired Nenya. Perhaps more than anyone else, she must have felt the >> attraction of the One. > >Interesting thought. Sort of progression to more power. Certainly made >it more difficult for her. But that would not make it impossible for >Celeborn to desire the One. Actually, it would have been a great step to take up the One. None of the Three Rings tried to corrupt their wielders. There would have been no contest of wills between Galadriel and Nenya (which, being made by Celebrimbor, was considerably less powerful than the One). Galadriel does indeed seem to be the person among the Wise (after Saruman) most consumed with thoughts of the One. The test for her is especially hard. Celeborn would have desired the One had he wanted to bring order to Middle-earth. What we don't know about Celeborn is how much he wished to impose his will on others. But then, he was an elven-lord and therefore a ruler who HAD to impose his will on others to some extent. The Ring must therefore have presented some temptation to him, but that he never expresses any interest in it shows he is not struggling with the desire. If at any time Celeborn was tempted by the Ring in the past (as Galadriel had been for so long), he seems to have conquered that impulse as Faramir did so quickly. We could suggest that it may be because of Celeborn more than anything else that Galadriel refuses the Ring. Seeing no desire for domination of other wills in him, her own spirit may have been tempered to the point where she could refuse the Ring when it was finally offered to her. >> It cannot be denied I feel that any Noldo (and all Noldor lived in Aman and >> among the Valar, in the light of the Trees), but especially a Noldo that is >> the grandchild of Finwe would be wiser and more farsighted than what is >> basically an elf of darkness. > >That is actually an interesting question: What effect does being a >calaquendi have relative to being an moriquendi? What did the elves >get from pre-darkness Aman? > >Definitively an view of greatness and peace. But not neccessarily >wisdom. See the case of Feanor and his sons (also child and >grandchildren of Finwe). And actually all Noldor which left. The Elves of Aman benefitted from direct communication with the Valar and Maiar. By seeing the "Holy Ones", living and working beside them, the Eldar of Aman were able to learn by example. The Eldar of Middle-earth had only Melian to learn from. There must have been many discussions between Elda and Ainu in Aman -- what we would call "bull sessions", where they just talk about whatever comes to mind, teacher and student. Having so many Ainur to interact with, the Eldar of Aman would have been confronted with many different perspectives and insights that simply weren't available in Middle-earth. The contention that an Elf of Aman should, by default, have a greater "wisdom" than an Elf of Middle-earth, is not unreasonable. But that doesn't preclude the eventuality of a Middle-earthian Elf displaying a deeper native understanding of many issues than the "taught" Elves from Aman (and their descendants). Much of the wisdom and lore of Aman which survived the wars should have been passed on to other Elves through similar interaction in Middle-earth. >Actually if wisdom requires experiences (as I claim) then the >protected world of Aman would be bad at producing it. Not necessarily. Some experiences would be unavailable, but other experiences unique to Aman would compensate. The Noldor-in-exile benefitted from two pools of experience, as it were. But what a price they had to pay for gaining that experience. >> >Precisely she says "is accounted". But I doubt she would say that, if >> >she was not in agreement with this claim. I simply think she is being >> >> But accounted implies an accounting by who? Just the Galadhrim? Or just >> Galadriel? Or even just Celeborn? > >Who? Good question. As Galadriel is making the claim, I would assume at >least by her, and most likey also the majority of those she regards as >her peers (at least as far as it is her impression of their accounts). I think it's reasonable to say that Galadriel was speaking of Celeborn's reputation among the Elves, and not just praising him gratuitously. Her commet precedes the statement about his gift-giving, which is really the heart of the matter. Tolkien was telling the reader to expect Celeborn to give something special at some point. >> >> other handhe was the father of Luthien and the forefather of all her >> >> kin, >> > >> >Which was not of his making, as he actually tried to prevent it. >> >> At first yes, but in the end he was still not forced to give Luthien's hand. >> Berend had not fulfilled his quest, and would never have done so if it >> hadn't been for Thingol and his most powerful lieutenants. Thingol of free >> will decided to aid Beren. Beren did indeed fulfill his quest. When he came before Thingol again a Silmaril was in his hand. It just happened to be in the stomache of Carcharoth at the same time. >I got the impression (I have only read Silm once) that he helped hunt >the wolf because of the damage it was doing to his land and because >of his desire of the Silmaril. Helping Beren was an side effect. > >And once he had the Silmaril, largely due to Berens work. He sort of >had to give Luthiens hand. Thingol gave Luthien to Beren BEFORE they went to hunt the wolf. Beren was slain by Carcharoth. >> >He would still be the leader of the Lorien elves in Aman. >> >> There's no way of telling that. The elves in _my_ view would quite probably >> have remingled themselves with their long lost relatives, > >Ehm. The Galadhrim were mainly Nandor, not Noldor. So I would assume >them to keep their own identity in Tol Eressea. With C/G as their lords. They were a mixture of Nandor, Avari, Noldor, and Sindar. What they "mainly" were is hard to tell. Quite probably (though there is no real way to show this) each group of Elves that went to Aman set up as some sort of community in Aman, although many of these communities seem to have settled in the cities on Tol Eressea. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 18 Jul 1999 23:10:13 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 66 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6upv1poea2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6u7lo0cckd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mq245$gjt$2@news.worldonline.nl> <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > > Quoth Neil Franklin : > > "db" writes: > > > He was a Sindarin or Telerin (not a Noldo anyway) elf, > > > > He is a Sindarin, which is a subgroup of Telerin (the subgroup that > > wanted to stay with Elwe Thingol). To be precise he is the grandson > > of Elmo, Elwes younger brother. > > 1) "...In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin I must have missed that remark in UT. > 2) "In _The Silmarillion_ there is mention of the meeting of Galadriel > and Celeborn in Doriath, and of his kinship with Thingol" (Also That was what I was refering to. Is both in Silm and UT. > 3) "...There she met Celeborn, who is here again a Telerin prince, the > grandson of Olwe of Alqualonde and thus her close kinsman" (From That one is in UT explicitely refered to as a late development, so I ignored it in the context of LotR discussion. > So, Celeborn's history wasn't ever firmly fixed, According to Christopher both Celeborn and Galadriel were nowhere near finished (at the beginnig of the chapter on them). Thet is one reason why I have no problems with the claims that Tolkien intended to flesh out Celeborn. The writers problem of not having enough time to flesh out all strands of an story is all-to-well known to me (from technical writing). > rather uncharacteristic of Tolkien to make such a substantial > alteration of published material, which at least in the case of LotR > he generally regarded as "set in stone" to a substantial degree. In Most likely also one reason why he delayed publishing the Silm. > published work. For more information on the ramifications of the > proposed change 3), I refer you to UT. The are definitely big. The whole status of Galadriel (not being any more one of Feanors exiles) for example. Or far more important: Celeborn being an grandson of Olwe would make him son of one of the siblings of Galadriels mother Earwen. That would make the two of then cousins. End of marriage, or possibly going to ME because of an big scandal. How Tolkien was going to handle that (assuming he had noticed it) would have been interesting. Or perhaps that is the reason he did not go through with this alteration. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 18 Jul 1999 23:49:36 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 169 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uogh9ocgf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mt1ne$1q3l@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Michael Martinez writes: > > Neil resolved to say for all to read and review: > > > >As to how much more powerfull and what it can do, he most likely knows > >less than Galadriel (or Elrond, or Gandalf). But I doubt that even > > I don't see any reason to suggest Celeborn had less knowledge of the power and > peril the Rings of Power presented to him and others. If we accept the idea > that Celeborn and Galadriel both lived in Eregion, Which we should. It is in UT in most variants. > he would certainly have been > privy to much that was going on there. It would be uncharacteristic for > Galadriel to operate behind his back. Possible lack of interest in the details of this enterprise which is against his feelings (after seeing the effects of the silmarils)? > Celeborn would thus have greater > knowledge of the making of the Rings than Elrond, for he was there when the > Rings were made (maybe). IIRC Elrond was also in Eregion at that time. He fled to Imladris/Rivendell when Saurons attack came and killed Celebrimbor. > >> drawn towards nature and earth more than towards the things the pupils of > >> Aule were. > > > >Drawn more, but I would doubt that to mean drawn exclusively. > > Technically, the Teleri were drawn more toward water than toward the > earth. Falmari (Alqualonde) and Falathrim (coast of Beleriand) were drawn to water. Sindar tend to be more earthen (Doriath/Menegroth). > They were not, however, technologists like the Noldor. Their interests lay > elsewhere. But they had the capacity to achieve great things (as occurred in > Beleriand). Sure they had such abilities, but not to Noldorian level or interest. So I would assume Galadriel to have picked up more of the arcana of making and using the rings. > >Interesting thought. Sort of progression to more power. Certainly made > > Actually, it would have been a great step to take up the One. None of the Thr ee > Rings tried to corrupt their wielders. But they are also harmfull. See the remarks in UT about Nenya increasing longing in Galadriel. > considerably less powerful than the One). Galadriel does indeed seem to be th e > person among the Wise (after Saruman) most consumed with thoughts of > the One. That she definitely is. > Celeborn would have desired the One had he wanted to bring order to > Middle-earth. What we don't know about Celeborn is how much he wished to impo se > his will on others. But then, he was an elven-lord and therefore a ruler who > HAD to impose his will on others to some extent. "Has to" and "wants to" are not the same thing. I actually regard him as more an "does what is needed" type of ruler, not an "impose himself" type. > shows he is not struggling with the desire. If at any time Celeborn was tempt ed > by the Ring in the past (as Galadriel had been for so long), he seems to have > conquered that impulse as Faramir did so quickly. Nice remark. Faramir also shows the same type of wisdom that I see in Celeborn. > Galadriel refuses the Ring. Seeing no desire for domination of other wills in > him, her own spirit may have been tempered to the point where she could refuse > the Ring when it was finally offered to her. Actually UT says that it is more from her desire to rule having being satisfied over the long time in Lorien. > >Definitively an view of greatness and peace. But not neccessarily > >wisdom. See the case of Feanor and his sons (also child and > >grandchildren of Finwe). And actually all Noldor which left. > > to mind, teacher and student. Having so many Ainur to interact with, the Elda r > of Aman would have been confronted with many different perspectives and insigh ts > that simply weren't available in Middle-earth. What I was refering to with "greatness". > many issues than the "taught" Elves from Aman (and their descendants). Much o f > the wisdom and lore of Aman which survived the wars should have been passed on > to other Elves through similar interaction in Middle-earth. Who so also only have indirect knowledge. Actually Galadriel seems to be the last traceable calaquendi alive. And so the last with direct experience. > >> >Precisely she says "is accounted". But I doubt she would say that, if > >> >she was not in agreement with this claim. I simply think she is being > >> > >> But accounted implies an accounting by who? Just the Galadhrim? Or just > >> Galadriel? Or even just Celeborn? > > > >Who? Good question. As Galadriel is making the claim, I would assume at > >least by her, and most likey also the majority of those she regards as > >her peers (at least as far as it is her impression of their accounts). > > I think it's reasonable to say that Galadriel was speaking of Celeborn's > reputation among the Elves, That I also think. The question of db was more about who exactly constitutes "the Elves" in her remark. > >Ehm. The Galadhrim were mainly Nandor, not Noldor. So I would assume > >them to keep their own identity in Tol Eressea. With C/G as their lords. > > They were a mixture of Nandor, Avari, Noldor, and Sindar. Including Avari? Do you have an reference to that? AFAIK the Avari were those that remained in Cuivienen and from then on do not appear any more in writing (apart from the speculation on the Orcs descent). > What they "mainly" > were is hard to tell. Nandor, according to UT. With a small Noldor/Sindar "upper class" from those who had immigrated from Eregion. > Quite probably (though there is no real way to show this) > each group of Elves that went to Aman set up as some sort of community in Aman , > although many of these communities seem to have settled in the cities on Tol > Eressea. AFAIK (again: only read Silm and UT once) they were only allowed to go to Tol Eressea. The second offering of the Valar (after the destruction of Beleriand) did not include the rest of Aman. At least for the Exiles, so long as they are not prepared to repent, and possible for the moriquendi who had spurned the first offer. There is somewhere a remark about Galadriel not returning after the First Age because she "as an native from Valinor will not take an small island as her home, as she has nothing to repent from", or something along that line. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 18 Jul 1999 16:39:09 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 28 Message-ID: <7mtoit$2u0s@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mt1ne$1q3l@drn.newsguy.com> <379246C8.6484@xxxx.xxx> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-272.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:27:36 +0200, in article <379246C8.6484@xxxx.xxx>, RLV resolved to say for all to read and review: > >Michael Martinez wrote: >> Celeborn would have desired the One had he wanted to bring order to >> Middle-earth. What we don't know about Celeborn is how much he wished to >> impose his will on others. But then, he was an elven-lord and therefore a >> ruler who HAD to impose his will on others to some extent. The Ring must >> therefore have presented some temptation to him, but that he never expresses >> any interest in it shows he is not struggling with the desire. > >This is completely speculative... That is simply your opinion. :) >...Galadriel does not speak of her desire of the Ring until she is offered it. >If Frodo hadn't presented her with it, would she have spoken about her >temptations? Maybe, maybe not, we don't know. Just as with Celeborn: we don't >know what desires or temptations he has. This is completely speculative. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 18 Jul 1999 17:13:15 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 178 Message-ID: <7mtqir$3110@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <6uogh9ocgf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-657.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On 18 Jul 1999 23:49:36 +0200, in article <6uogh9ocgf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil resolved to say for all to read and review: > >Michael Martinez writes: >> he would certainly have been >> privy to much that was going on there. It would be uncharacteristic for >> Galadriel to operate behind his back. > >Possible lack of interest in the details of this enterprise which is >against his feelings (after seeing the effects of the silmarils)? Apparently Galadriel was part of the debate over whether to accept Sauron in Eregion (in one version of the history). Celeborn must have been around to hear what was at stake. An attempt to hold back Time itself, however arrogant and presumptious that might seem (and therefore undesirable), would nonetheless be of great interest to any Elf in Eregion. They all stood to gain the same benefit. >> Celeborn would thus have greater >> knowledge of the making of the Rings than Elrond, for he was there when the >> Rings were made (maybe). > >IIRC Elrond was also in Eregion at that time. He fled to Imladris/Rivendell >when Saurons attack came and killed Celebrimbor. No. Elrond was in Lindon at the time. Gil-galad sent Elrond to Eregion with an army when Sauron attacked. >> >> drawn towards nature and earth more than towards the things the pupils of >> >> Aule were. >> > >> >Drawn more, but I would doubt that to mean drawn exclusively. >> >> Technically, the Teleri were drawn more toward water than toward the >> earth. > >Falmari (Alqualonde) and Falathrim (coast of Beleriand) were drawn to >water. Sindar tend to be more earthen (Doriath/Menegroth). All the Teleri had an affinity with water. Falathrim were Sindar, btw. >> They were not, however, technologists like the Noldor. Their interests lay >> elsewhere. But they had the capacity to achieve great things (as occurred in >> Beleriand). > >Sure they had such abilities, but not to Noldorian level or interest... As a group, no. But individuals could indeed arise among them who might have such interests and skills. Daeron is one example. Some people point to Eol, although in one conception he was a Tatyarin Avar (akin to the Noldor). >...So I would assume Galadriel to have picked up more of the arcana of >making and using the rings. Galadriel fled Eregion after Celebrimbor seized power in their middle history. She wasn't there to see how the Rings were made. >> >Interesting thought. Sort of progression to more power. Certainly made >> >> Actually, it would have been a great step to take up the One. None of the >> Three Rings tried to corrupt their wielders. > >But they are also harmfull. See the remarks in UT about Nenya increasing >longing in Galadriel. That is hardly a harmful side effect. >> Celeborn would have desired the One had he wanted to bring order to >> Middle-earth. What we don't know about Celeborn is how much he wished to >> impose his will on others. But then, he was an elven-lord and therefore a >> ruler who HAD to impose his will on others to some extent. > >"Has to" and "wants to" are not the same thing. I actually regard him >as more an "does what is needed" type of ruler, not an "impose >himself" type. 'Alas!' said Aragorn. 'Gandalf the Grey fell into shadow. He remained in Moria and did not escape.' At these words all the Elves in the hall cried aloud in grief and amazement. 'These are evil tidings,' said Celeborn, 'the most evil that have been spoken here in long years full of grievous deeds.' He turned to Haldir. 'Why has nothing of this been told to me before?' he asked in the Elven-tongue. He doesn't exactly take off Haldir's head, but I think the rebuke in Celeborn's word is unmistakable. Why switch to the Sindarin dialect of Lorien in front of his guests if not to demand an explanation from an underling? >> Galadriel refuses the Ring. Seeing no desire for domination of other wills >> in him, her own spirit may have been tempered to the point where she could >> refuse the Ring when it was finally offered to her. > >Actually UT says that it is more from her desire to rule having being >satisfied over the long time in Lorien. You seem to be hopping from history to history. These texts are by no means in agreement on Galadriel's history. >> many issues than the "taught" Elves from Aman (and their descendants). Much >> of the wisdom and lore of Aman which survived the wars should have been >> passed on to other Elves through similar interaction in Middle-earth. > >Who so also only have indirect knowledge. Actually Galadriel seems to >be the last traceable calaquendi alive. And so the last with direct >experience. Among the Finweans, yes. But we cannot know how many of the original rebels were still around at the time of the War of the Ring. >> I think it's reasonable to say that Galadriel was speaking of Celeborn's >> reputation among the Elves, > >That I also think. The question of db was more about who exactly >constitutes "the Elves" in her remark. You mean the "Elves of Middle-earth" business. I don't wish to get drawn into that. >> >Ehm. The Galadhrim were mainly Nandor, not Noldor. So I would assume >> >them to keep their own identity in Tol Eressea. With C/G as their lords. >> >> They were a mixture of Nandor, Avari, Noldor, and Sindar. > >Including Avari? Do you have an reference to that? AFAIK the Avari >were those that remained in Cuivienen and from then on do not appear >any more in writing (apart from the speculation on the Orcs descent). Avari appear all over the place. You just have to know where to look for them. :) The first indication of the mixture of Avari and Nandor in the Vales of Anduin comes in "Quendi and Eldar" in THE WAR OF THE JEWELS. I believe some of the material in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH also discusses that situation. >> What they "mainly" were is hard to tell. > >Nandor, according to UT. With a small Noldor/Sindar "upper class" from >those who had immigrated from Eregion. I don't put too much trust in what UNFINISHED TALES has to say, as far as the material in "Concerning the History of Galadriel and Celeborn" is concerned. Someo of it I go with because there is nothing to contradict it, but most of it is so convoluted and contradictory to itself (and other material) -- partly because Christopher assembled almost everything together about Galadriel and Celeborn -- that the chapter is a minefield of exceptions for any serious study of the Elven peoples of Middle-earth. >> Quite probably (though there is no real way to show this) >> each group of Elves that went to Aman set up as some sort of community in >> Aman, although many of these communities seem to have settled in the cities >> on Tol Eressea. > >AFAIK (again: only read Silm and UT once) they were only allowed to go >to Tol Eressea. The second offering of the Valar (after the >destruction of Beleriand) did not include the rest of Aman. At least >for the Exiles, so long as they are not prepared to repent, and >possible for the moriquendi who had spurned the first offer. There are indications that Elves could enter Aman after being received at Tol Eressea. But that's just one of those mysterious matters that gets buried in the mists of Numenor's Downfall. Much that was once known is now lost, and all that. >There is somewhere a remark about Galadriel not returning after the >First Age because she "as an native from Valinor will not take an >small island as her home, as she has nothing to repent from", or >something along that line. I don't recall this, but she generally is said to have rejected the pardon of the Valar out of pride. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: RLV Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:27:36 +0200 Organization: RLV Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <379246C8.6484@xxxx.xxx> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mt1ne$1q3l@drn.newsguy.com> Reply-To: xxxx@xxxx.xxx NNTP-Posting-Host: tn174-208.tinn.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newsfeed.mad.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > Snippage has occurred throughout. > > On 18 Jul 1999 00:04:49 +0200, in article <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil resolved to say for all to read and review: > > > >"db" writes: > Celeborn would have desired the One had he wanted to bring order to > Middle-earth. What we don't know about Celeborn is how much he wished to impose > his will on others. But then, he was an elven-lord and therefore a ruler who > HAD to impose his will on others to some extent. The Ring must therefore have > presented some temptation to him, but that he never expresses any interest in it > shows he is not struggling with the desire. This is completely speculative. Galadriel does not speak of her desire of the Ring until she is offered it. If Frodo hadn't presented her with it, would she have spoken about her temptations? Maybe, maybe not, we don't know. Just as with Celeborn: we don't know what desires or temptations he has. R.L.V. ~~#~~ ###### From: sonshi57@mindspring.com (Douglas Henderson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:33:01 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 38 Message-ID: <379335ac.4715680@news.mindspring.com> References: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.09.da Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 19 Jul 1999 14:32:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On 12 Jul 1999 20:15:41 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >My feelings on Celeborn are well-known (well maybe well-forgotten). I agree >with the school of thought that holds Celeborn was not portrayed as the wisest >elf in Middle earth, as Galadriel claims. I base this primarily on what I >consider his obvious bigotry towards dwarves and his isolationist world view. > >However, a thought occurs to me. Regardless of how he was protrayed in the >Lorien scenes in LOTR and the snippets we can glean from Unfinished Tales, I do >believe Tolkien *intended* that Celeborn be a wise elf lord. Unless we're >going to believe that Galadriel would marry a dim bulb and that she was >actually telling a great big fib to the Company, I think I'll just have to >chalk this up as a rare occassion that JRRT's descriptions just weren't up to >snuff. > >So regardless of how it turned out, I do believe that Tolkien intended Celeborn >to be a wise elf lord, so I'll just leave it at that. It's like what I tell my >wife when she finds some odd plot turn in a move hard to believe: "It's in the >script" > > >Russ While his saying that he would not have let the Followship past the northern borders shows a lack of foresight, there is the fact that he was unmoved by the Ring and his appellation as most wise. It has always seemed to me that one of the shining characteristics of Tolkien is that he avoided making his characters completely stick figures. His wise folks can err, they have flaws, they have some depth. Gollum can have some stirrings of honour, Boromir can fail the test, etc. etc. There is at least some layer of complexity there. (which probably helps explain the volume of posts in this ng and the popularity of the books ) [[[[[[[[[[ LaoWombat Lao Ma Lives! m (\/) m ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:38:39 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <7mvgps$vbo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <19990712161541.17959.00005915@ngol01.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jul 19 15:38:39 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x34.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.tli.de!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Ojevind wrote: "Sometimes clever and beutiful women puzzle everybody who knows them by falling in love with and marrying complete nobodies. It's the eternal question of "she and he". Very realistic to let the greatest female personality in "The Lord of the Rings" be married a loser" Great point! An illustration of one of the little quirks that seperate Mr. Tolkien from many others who write escapist literature. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:40:35 +0200 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 8 Message-ID: <7mvgnh$s4u$1@weber.a2000.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6u7lo0cckd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mq245$gjt$2@news.worldonline.nl> <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: node11aae.a2000.nl X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 932398641 28830 24.132.26.174 (19 Jul 1999 15:37:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jul 1999 15:37:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!pascal.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Steuard Jensen wrote in message ... Thx Stu, but it's all the same: Dark elf. db ###### From: RLV Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 00:53:03 +0200 Organization: RLV Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3793AC4F.2BE6@xxxx.xxx> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mt1ne$1q3l@drn.newsguy.com> <379246C8.6484@xxxx.xxx> <7mtoit$2u0s@drn.newsguy.com> Reply-To: xxxx@xxxx.xxx NNTP-Posting-Host: tn174-36.tinn.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:27:36 +0200, in article <379246C8.6484@xxxx.xxx>, RLV > resolved to say for all to read and review: > >> The Ring must > >> therefore have presented some temptation to him, but that he never expresses > >> any interest in it shows he is not struggling with the desire. > > > >This is completely speculative... > > That is simply your opinion. :) > > >...Galadriel does not speak of her desire of the Ring until she is offered it. > >If Frodo hadn't presented her with it, would she have spoken about her > >temptations? Maybe, maybe not, we don't know. Just as with Celeborn: we don't > >know what desires or temptations he has. > > This is completely speculative. Precisely my point. I see we agree. :) In all the matter of the possible wisdom or lack thereof of Celeborn, we are doing nothing but to speculate, for no great wisdom nor great folly showeth the elf in LoTR. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Call me Wingalam" ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:04:52 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 126 Message-ID: <7n1o4b$csp$8@news.worldonline.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <6uwvvzexvi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mt1ne$1q3l@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp207-149.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 932471755 13209 195.241.207.149 (20 Jul 1999 11:55:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jul 1999 11:55:55 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message <7mt1ne$1q3l@drn.newsguy.com>... >I don't see any reason to suggest Celeborn had less knowledge of the power and >peril the Rings of Power presented to him and others. If we accept the idea >that Celeborn and Galadriel both lived in Eregion, he would certainly have been >privy to much that was going on there. It would be uncharacteristic for >Galadriel to operate behind his back. Celeborn would thus have greater >knowledge of the making of the Rings than Elrond, for he was there when the >Rings were made (maybe). I think there would be an inherent difference in ability to "work" and "feel" the Great Rings. I think the affinity of elves like Galadriel and Celebrimbor, who were Noldor, would be far greater than that of Celeborn, who was not a Noldo, whatever he was. I feel the importance of "race" should not be underestimated. It was _always_ the Noldor who created objects of this kind, or even felt the need to. > >[snip about Celeborn's Telerin/Sindarin background and ancestry] > >>> drawn towards nature and earth more than towards the things the pupils of >>> Aule were. >> >>Drawn more, but I would doubt that to mean drawn exclusively. > >Technically, the Teleri were drawn more toward water than toward the earth. >They were not, however, technologists like the Noldor. Their interests lay >elsewhere. But they had the capacity to achieve great things (as occurred in >Beleriand). Great things. But the great cities (Nargothrond, Gondolin, Menegroth) were either made by Noldor (pupils of Aule) or dwarves (people of Aule) or both. >Actually, it would have been a great step to take up the One. None of the Three >Rings tried to corrupt their wielders. There would have been no contest of >wills between Galadriel and Nenya (which, being made by Celebrimbor A great step, perhaps, but first off, not so great they didn't consider it, and second, less great than for those who were not accustomed to using such a thing at all. Also, the corruption in a way isn't even an issue. The Wise have no doubt they could use the One the way it was designed, their hesitance (refusal actually) comes from knowing they would (most probably?) not remain true to themselves. >was >considerably less powerful than the One). Galadriel does indeed seem to be the >person among the Wise (after Saruman) most consumed with thoughts of the One. >The test for her is especially hard. Agreed >We could suggest that it may be because of Celeborn more than anything else that >Galadriel refuses the Ring. Seeing no desire for domination of other wills in >him, her own spirit may have been tempered to the point where she could refuse >the Ring when it was finally offered to her. It may certainly have played a part. The Noldor have a greater tendency to "manipulate" life by artificial means, and in that sense also, the temptation for Celeborn would be less than for Galadriel. >The Elves of Aman benefitted from direct communication with the Valar and Maiar. >By seeing the "Holy Ones", living and working beside them, the Eldar of Aman >were able to learn by example. The Eldar of Middle-earth had only Melian to >learn from. There must have been many discussions between Elda and Ainu in Aman >-- what we would call "bull sessions", where they just talk about whatever comes >to mind, teacher and student. Having so many Ainur to interact with, the Eldar >of Aman would have been confronted with many different perspectives and insights >that simply weren't available in Middle-earth. > >The contention that an Elf of Aman should, by default, have a greater "wisdom" >than an Elf of Middle-earth, is not unreasonable. But that doesn't preclude the >eventuality of a Middle-earthian Elf displaying a deeper native understanding of >many issues than the "taught" Elves from Aman (and their descendants). Much of >the wisdom and lore of Aman which survived the wars should have been passed on >to other Elves through similar interaction in Middle-earth. Agreed. There is also the added infusion of "lifepower" as I imagine it by simply living around the Powers, and especially the Two Trees. I imagine it somewhat like charging a magnet or a battery, it is most powerful right after being charged. > >Beren did indeed fulfill his quest. When he came before Thingol again a Silmaril >was in his hand. It just happened to be in the stomache of Carcharoth at the >same time. ;-) By the _letter_ of the contract, you (and he) are correct. db ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:14:08 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7n1o4c$csp$9@news.worldonline.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <6uogh9ocgf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mtqir$3110@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp207-149.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 932471756 13209 195.241.207.149 (20 Jul 1999 11:55:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jul 1999 11:55:56 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message <7mtqir$3110@drn.newsguy.com>... >>Sure they had such abilities, but not to Noldorian level or interest... > >As a group, no. But individuals could indeed arise among them who might have >such interests and skills. Daeron is one example. Some people point to Eol, >although in one conception he was a Tatyarin Avar (akin to the Noldor). Also, Eol was unique for a non-Noldorin elf in his close contacts with the dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost. He is indeed the exception that confirms the rule, having created weapons of surpassing quality. db ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 21 Jul 1999 01:19:19 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 126 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uaesq29l4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <6uogh9ocgf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mtqir$3110@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Michael Martinez writes: > > Neil resolved to say for all to read and review: > > > >Michael Martinez writes: > > what was at stake. An attempt to hold back Time itself, however arrogant and > presumptious that might seem (and therefore undesirable), would nonetheless be > of great interest to any Elf in Eregion. Hmmm? What good would stopping time be for immortals? In humans or dwarfs this would be an way to avoid death, but for elves? > >> They were not, however, technologists like the Noldor. Their interests lay > >> elsewhere. But they had the capacity to achieve great things (as occurred in > >> Beleriand). > > > >Sure they had such abilities, but not to Noldorian level or interest... > > As a group, no. But individuals could indeed arise among them who might have > such interests and skills. Daeron is one example. Daeron a technologist? The nearest I can find in Silm is inventing the Cirith, more something linguistic. > >> Actually, it would have been a great step to take up the One. None of the > >> Three Rings tried to corrupt their wielders. > > > >But they are also harmfull. See the remarks in UT about Nenya increasing > >longing in Galadriel. > > That is hardly a harmful side effect. Legolas, when warned about going near the sea, talking to Gimli, compares the message with a message predicting death. Even if subtracting the Sindar/Noldor difference, I doubt Galadriel would get "hardly harmfull". UT (if you accept this bit as source) even says so. > >"Has to" and "wants to" are not the same thing. I actually regard him > >as more an "does what is needed" type of ruler, not an "impose > >himself" type. > > that have been spoken here in long years full of grievous deeds.' He > turned to Haldir. 'Why has nothing of this been told to me before?' > he asked in the Elven-tongue. Many a person has reacted so, when thinking someone has withheld an important message. No base to infer an desire to impose from that. > He doesn't exactly take off Haldir's head, but I think the rebuke in Celeborn' s > word is unmistakable. Many a person has rebuked someone without a desire to domination. > Why switch to the Sindarin dialect of Lorien in front of > his guests if not to demand an explanation from an underling? Having an underling in an professional relationship (military here) does not make one a person who wants to impose oneself. > >Actually UT says that it is more from her desire to rule having being > >satisfied over the long time in Lorien. > > You seem to be hopping from history to history. These texts are by no means i n > agreement on Galadriel's history. I picked one history which shows that Tolkien contemplated this. This may not have been his only version, but definitely one. And it is an psychologically realistic one. > >Who so also only have indirect knowledge. Actually Galadriel seems to > >be the last traceable calaquendi alive. And so the last with direct > >experience. > > Among the Finweans, yes. Which are the only ones we can trace, due to the others not having any documented names or personal histories. > But we cannot know how many of the original rebels > were still around at the time of the War of the Ring. Some of them may be. > >Including Avari? Do you have an reference to that? AFAIK the Avari > >were those that remained in Cuivienen and from then on do not appear > >any more in writing (apart from the speculation on the Orcs descent). > > The first indication of the mixture of Avari and Nandor in the Vales of Anduin > comes in "Quendi and Eldar" in THE WAR OF THE JEWELS. I believe some of the > material in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH also discusses that situation. That seem to be HoME volumes. I suppose that reply solves an question I was going to post soon: With what to continue after LotR, Hobbit, Silm, UT. So the path seems to be drawn towards HoME (a few other remarks have also pointed in that direction). > >> What they "mainly" were is hard to tell. > > > >Nandor, according to UT. With a small Noldor/Sindar "upper class" from > >those who had immigrated from Eregion. > > I don't put too much trust in what UNFINISHED TALES has to say, as far as the > material in "Concerning the History of Galadriel and Celeborn" is concerned. > Someo of it I go with because there is nothing to contradict it, but most of i t > is so convoluted and contradictory to itself (and other material) I have noticed that. Tolkien definitely was still searching there. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it ###### From: Michael Martinez Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: 20 Jul 1999 17:46:42 -0700 Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web Lines: 88 Message-ID: <7n359i$2uj4@drn.newsguy.com> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <6uaesq29l4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-818.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn On 21 Jul 1999 01:19:19 +0200, in article <6uaesq29l4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil resolved to say for all to read and review: > >Michael Martinez writes: >> >> Neil resolved to say for all to read and review: >> > >> >Michael Martinez writes: >> >> what was at stake. An attempt to hold back Time itself, however arrogant and >>presumptious that might seem (and therefore undesirable), would nonetheless be >> of great interest to any Elf in Eregion. > >Hmmm? What good would stopping time be for immortals? In humans or >dwarfs this would be an way to avoid death, but for elves? Elves were subject to a different kind of bodily death. They faded. The Eregion Elves wanted to prevent or delay this inevitable conclusion to their existence in Middle-earth. >> >> They were not, however, technologists like the Noldor. Their interests >> >> lay elsewhere. But they had the capacity to achieve great things (as >> >> occurred in Beleriand). >> > >> >Sure they had such abilities, but not to Noldorian level or interest... >> >> As a group, no. But individuals could indeed arise among them who might have >> such interests and skills. Daeron is one example. > >Daeron a technologist? The nearest I can find in Silm is inventing the >Cirith, more something linguistic. Daeron was a great artificer. See "Lay of Leithian" in THE LAYS OF BELERIAND for details. Among other things, he made a loom for Luthien. Not that a loom compares with a Silmaril or Ring of Power, mind you. That's just one example of how a Sindarin Elf could devote himself to matters of "technology" or "tools". They didn't just sit around the woods singing to the trees. >> >> Actually, it would have been a great step to take up the One. None of the >> >> Three Rings tried to corrupt their wielders. >> > >> >But they are also harmfull. See the remarks in UT about Nenya increasing >> >longing in Galadriel. >> >> That is hardly a harmful side effect. > >Legolas, when warned about going near the sea, talking to Gimli, >compares the message with a message predicting death. > >Even if subtracting the Sindar/Noldor difference, I doubt Galadriel >would get "hardly harmfull". UT (if you accept this bit as source) >even says so. I don't see the word harm, unless you're looking at a different passage than I am. >> >"Has to" and "wants to" are not the same thing. I actually regard him >> >as more an "does what is needed" type of ruler, not an "impose >> >himself" type. >> >> that have been spoken here in long years full of grievous deeds.' He >> turned to Haldir. 'Why has nothing of this been told to me before?' >> he asked in the Elven-tongue. > >Many a person has reacted so, when thinking someone has withheld an >important message. No base to infer an desire to impose from that. A lord demands an explanation of his servant. >> >Who so also only have indirect knowledge. Actually Galadriel seems to >> >be the last traceable calaquendi alive. And so the last with direct >> >experience. >> >> Among the Finweans, yes. > >Which are the only ones we can trace, due to the others not having any >documented names or personal histories. That would pretty much rule out sweeping generalizations, however. For all we know one of the first Elves to awaken at Cuivienen returned in Exile and left with Celeborn. Also, it is not said that Glorfindel was born in Middle-earth. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// //\\ Michael@xenite.org [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org.......................................................... ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:16:46 +0200 Organization: WorldOnline News server Lines: 47 Message-ID: <7npena$cq1$1@news.worldonline.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> <3795D020.B59AE1FF@capgemini.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp210-88.worldonline.nl X-Trace: news.worldonline.nl 933248554 13121 195.241.210.88 (29 Jul 1999 11:42:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldonline.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 1999 11:42:34 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news.tvd.be!bignews.mediaways.net!news-x.support.nl!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail Kristian Damm Jensen wrote in message <3795D020.B59AE1FF@capgemini.dk>... >> Without Nenya. Lorien's demise would have started much earlier, being simpy >> another part of ME. > >By this you play a wonderful argument into my hands: Celeborn is the only elf we >know, who accepts that living in ME is to accept change! Even when it is change >for the worse. That is Strength. It is indeed. However, the strength to accept that which you cannot change applies to exactly that, which you cannot change. If you _can_change it, and you want to, then you should. >That Thingol was the father of Luthien is not a thing to recommend him - people >(or leves) should not receive fame because of their children, only through their >own merit. That is a silly thing to say. How can you tell what the childeren would have been like if not for their parents? And I don't mean just genetics, upbringing plays a significant part as well. >(And it is debatable whether Luthien would have been worth a song, if >not because of her mother.) Luthien's unique fate (until Arwen's time that is), and all that she did and achieved make her and her life worthy of song. She was powerful because of her mother, but she was Luthien only partly because of Melian. >> >And so he was rewarded by actually being the only "famous" elf (apart >> >from Thranduil) to stay on in the fourth age after the last Noldor had >> >gone (after G left ME, C left the empty Lorien and went to Rivendell, >> >to the sons of Elrond). He was fully satisfied with life in ME >> >> Because he knew no better > >Because he had the ability to accept change? No. He relly didn't no any better, and that was just as well for him. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 1999 18:01:09 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <19990729140109.13700.00002072@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , "Öjevind Lång" writes: >But the Elves were not meant to stay on in Middle-earth. Their divinely >ordained destination was the undying Lands. > >Öjevind > This is a point I never got. The Undying Lands only were created because Morgoth was creating so much trouble in Middle Earth. The original original plan was to have the Elves awake and live in Middle Earth. Their Great Journey to the West was a backup plan to get them away from the power of Melkor. So Ive wondered, assuming that Melkor stayed good, what was the original plan for Elves?? Russ ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> <3795D020.B59AE1FF@capgemini.dk> Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Lines: 19 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.155.55 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 933265781 130.244.155.55 (Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:29:41 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:29:41 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@dialup155-1-55.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:26:01 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!remarQ.com!supernews.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Kristian Damm Jensen hath written: > >By this you play a wonderful argument into my hands: Celeborn is the only elf we >know, who accepts that living in ME is to accept change! Even when it is change >for the worse. That is Strength. But the Elves were not meant to stay on in Middle-earth. Their divinely ordained destination was the undying Lands. Öjevind ###### From: "O'Neill" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> <3795D020.B59AE1FF@capgemini.dk> <7npena$cq1$1@news.worldonline.nl> Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.119.176.11 X-Complaints-To: news@u-net.net X-Trace: newsr2.u-net.net 933278195 194.119.176.11 (Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:56:35 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:56:35 BST Organization: (Posted via) U-NET Internet Ltd. X-Real-Host: 194.119.176.11 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:55:22 +0100 Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peernews!peer.news.bb.u-net.net!u-net!newsr2.u-net.net.POSTED!not-for-mail >>> >And so he was rewarded by actually being the only "famous" elf (apart >>> >from Thranduil) to stay on in the fourth age after the last Noldor had >>> >gone (after G left ME, C left the empty Lorien and went to Rivendell, >>> >to the sons of Elrond). He was fully satisfied with life in ME >>> If you read the prologue to LotR, during the detailing of the Shire's historical records, (at the very end, in fact), the last words said suggest that Celeborn did actually go over the sea. It is a bit ambigous, but that's the general idea. Kevin ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Egbert Lenderink Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Sender: news@natlab.research.philips.com (USEnet Subsystem) Message-ID: <37A16215.3C58A3D7@natlab.research.philips.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:28:05 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: pc3632 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> <3795D020.B59AE1FF@capgemini.dk> <7npena$cq1$1@news.worldonline.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Organization: Philips Research Lines: 38 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tvd.be!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!news.eur.cis.philips.com!newssvr!news db wrote: > > Kristian Damm Jensen wrote in message <3795D020.B59AE1FF@capgemini.dk>... > >> Without Nenya. Lorien's demise would have started much earlier, being > simpy > >> another part of ME. > > > >By this you play a wonderful argument into my hands: Celeborn is the only > elf we > >know, who accepts that living in ME is to accept change! Even when it is > change > >for the worse. That is Strength. > > It is indeed. However, the strength to accept that which you cannot change > applies to exactly that, which you cannot change. If you _can_change it, and > you want to, then you should. > Not necessarily. Much of what is called "evil" in Tolkien's work stems from: wanting too much influence on the course of things, beyond what is "good for you". Example from LotR: Saruman wanted to take an offensive initiative in the War of the Ring, and he fell from grace. Gandalf is considered to be much wiser than Saruman because he never _forced_ the course of events, even though he influenced it of course. So: if you can change something, and you want to, then you should... but only if it falls within the realm of things that you are "allowed" to change. It is considered to be great wisdom to know the boundaries of that realm. Egbert. -- This message reflects my personal opinions only, not necessarily those of the company I work for. ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:27:59 +0200 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 39 Message-ID: <7nsjjp$g7m$1@weber.a2000.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> <3795D020.B59AE1FF@capgemini.dk> <7npena$cq1$1@news.worldonline.nl> <37A16215.3C58A3D7@natlab.research.philips.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node11aae.a2000.nl X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 933351865 16630 24.132.26.174 (30 Jul 1999 16:24:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 1999 16:24:25 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!pascal.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Egbert Lenderink wrote in message <37A16215.3C58A3D7@natlab.research.philips.com>... >> It is indeed. However, the strength to accept that which you cannot change >> applies to exactly that, which you cannot change. If you _can_change it, and >> you want to, then you should. >> > >Not necessarily. Much of what is called "evil" in Tolkien's work stems >from: wanting too much influence on the course of things, beyond what is >"good for you". >Example from LotR: Saruman wanted to take an offensive initiative in the >War of the Ring, and he fell from grace. Gandalf is considered to be >much wiser than Saruman because he never _forced_ the course of events, >even though he influenced it of course. Perception of what is "good" is always a personal matter. Therefore, Galadriel may feel she's doing what's best for all by wielding her Ring. She can, she feels she should, and so she does. What others amy think of this is in all practicality irrelevant to her. Saruman fell from grace, turned to evil. Gandalf did not. But Gandalf also used his powers they feel _he_ felt obliged to, and the way he deemed right. >So: if you can change something, and you want to, then you should... but >only if it falls within the realm of things that you are "allowed" to >change. It is considered to be great wisdom to know the boundaries of >that realm. That is of course an important point. But it comes back to what I said earlier: _YOU_ may think you know what you're doing. Wether or not others judge the same way... db ###### From: Kristian Damm Jensen Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:07:08 +0200 Organization: CAP Gemini Danmark A/S Lines: 35 Message-ID: <379C415B.5AFB420@capgemini.dk> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <378a1557.140481216@news.earthlink.net> <7md8hv$2tko@drn.newsguy.com> <7KwLL1BnhWB@p-overlord.amt.comlink.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.247.190.193 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!news.capgemini.se!not-for-mail Simon Krahnke wrote: > Michael@xenite.org wrote: > > > It was Celeborn, not Galadriel, who came up with the idea of boats. > > That's not such a big thing. Boats go faster, Celborn had boats. The > company had to follow a river, which is best done by boat. Any idiot > could have come to that decision. Sure. But a lot of idiots didn't. Aragorn, Legolas and Boromir all were in a possition to get this idea but did not. And Aragorn at least where well aware that given the nature of their quest, asking for the boats would not be stretching hospitality. In short noone, not even those having the need, came up with the idea. Celeborn did. Before going on, read the passage carefully again. It is clear that 1) Celeborn is loath to give any advise - as all elves are. 2) Aragorn is very distressed, not knowing what to do, and everyone else in their party looking to him for a decision. 3) That Celeborn only then voluteers the idea, relieving Aragorns distress. This is what I call wise selfrestraint. -- Kristian Damm Jensen kristian-damm.jensen@capgemini.dk ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? From: ross_presser@NOSPAMimtek.com (Ross Presser) References: <19990729140109.13700.00002072@ngol03.aol.com> Organization: Imtek, Inc. Message-ID: <8E17A49F4pt101594@news.bellatlantic.net> User-Agent: Xnews/2.07.14 Lines: 35 Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 20:43:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.204.202.172 X-Trace: typhoon2.gnilink.net 933713005 151.204.202.172 (Tue, 03 Aug 1999 16:43:25 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 16:43:25 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hub1.ispnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!typhoon2.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail alt.distinguished.mcresq@aol.com (McREsq).wrote.posted.offered: >In article , "Öjevind Lång" > writes: > >>But the Elves were not meant to stay on in Middle-earth. Their divinely >>ordained destination was the undying Lands. >> >>Öjevind >> > >This is a point I never got. The Undying Lands only were created >because Morgoth was creating so much trouble in Middle Earth. The >original original plan was to have the Elves awake and live in Middle >Earth. Their Great Journey to the West was a backup plan to get them >away from the power of Melkor. > >So Ive wondered, assuming that Melkor stayed good, what was the original >plan for Elves?? > >Russ My take on it, based on the first part of the Silmarillion (Ainalunde?), is that Eru *invented* the Elves and Men in mid-song, as Melkor tried to take over the song, by proposing His Third Theme. By that reading, Melkor was already "evil" before the Children (of both Kindreds) had even been thought of. There was no "original plan for Elves if Melkor had stayed good" because if Melkor had stayed good, there would have been no Elves. What the Valar "planned", however, while actually living in Arda without foreknowledge, is another question (and probably the one you really were asking). -- Ross (with an O) ###### From: Kristian Damm Jensen Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 14:38:55 +0200 Organization: CAP Gemini Danmark A/S Lines: 76 Message-ID: <37A8345F.351B9CF5@capgemini.dk> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> <3795D020.B59AE1FF@capgemini.dk> <7npena$cq1$1@news.worldonline.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.247.190.197 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!news.capgemini.se!not-for-mail db wrote: > Kristian Damm Jensen wrote in message <3795D020.B59AE1FF@capgemini.dk>... > > > >By this you play a wonderful argument into my hands: Celeborn is the only > elf we > >know, who accepts that living in ME is to accept change! Even when it is > change > >for the worse. That is Strength. > > It is indeed. However, the strength to accept that which you cannot change > applies to exactly that, which you cannot change. If you _can_change it, and > you want to, then you should. Yes. So what should Celeborn change, and how? To just leave ME is not to change it. It is turning your back to change. > >That Thingol was the father of Luthien is not a thing to recommend him - > people > >(or leves) should not receive fame because of their children, only through > their > >own merit. > > That is a silly thing to say. How can you tell what the childeren would have > been like if not for their parents? And I don't mean just genetics, upbringing > plays a significant part as well. Sure. But whoever claimed fame to the parents of Einstein, Bohr, Beethoven or Bach? > >(And it is debatable whether Luthien would have been worth a song, if > >not because of her mother.) > > Luthien's unique fate (until Arwen's time that is), and all that she did and > achieved make her and her life worthy of song. She was powerful because of > her mother, but she was Luthien only partly because of Melian. Exactly. What I am trying to say is that without that power (from her mother) her live would have been so much different. Most probably she would have been caught by Sauron. End of story. > >> >And so he was rewarded by actually being the only "famous" elf (apart > >> >from Thranduil) to stay on in the fourth age after the last Noldor had > >> >gone (after G left ME, C left the empty Lorien and went to Rivendell, > >> >to the sons of Elrond). He was fully satisfied with life in ME > >> > >> Because he knew no better > > > >Because he had the ability to accept change? > > No. He relly didn't no any better, and that was just as well for him. Do any better than what? The quote "Because he knew no better" is implying that C was unknowing and/or stupid. I argue that we knew the options of his choice, but that he also knew that you can still have a good live even though change has withdrawn that which you loves the most. -- Kristian Damm Jensen kristian-damm.jensen@capgemini.dk ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:44:41 +0200 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Message-ID: <7o9fth$1ii$1@weber.a2000.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> <3795D020.B59AE1FF@capgemini.dk> <7npena$cq1$1@news.worldonline.nl> <37A8345F.351B9CF5@capgemini.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: node11aae.a2000.nl X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 933774065 1618 24.132.26.174 (4 Aug 1999 13:41:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 1999 13:41:05 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Lines: 64 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!pascal.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Kristian Damm Jensen wrote in message <37A8345F.351B9CF5@capgemini.dk>... >Yes. So what should Celeborn change, and how? > >To just leave ME is not to change it. It is turning your back to change. I'm not saying C should change anything. In fact, I think _he_ was probably satisfied either way, he lived with Galadriel for millennia and was happy (well, who wouldn't have been...), and when she left, he did not leave with her. I assume he choose the best of two bad choices. But that's all he could do. >> That is a silly thing to say. How can you tell what the childeren would have >> been like if not for their parents? And I don't mean just genetics, upbringing >> plays a significant part as well. > >Sure. But whoever claimed fame to the parents of Einstein, Bohr, >Beethoven or >Bach? No one, except in individual cases where the parents where greats in their own right. But that is beside the issue. Wether or not they were famous or not, these celebrities would have been different people (not necessarily "less") with different parents. >> >(And it is debatable whether Luthien would have been worth a song, if >> >not because of her mother.) >> >> Luthien's unique fate (until Arwen's time that is), and all that she did and >> achieved make her and her life worthy of song. She was powerful because of >> her mother, but she was Luthien only partly because of Melian. > >Exactly. What I am trying to say is that without that power (from her >mother) >her live would have been so much different. Most probably she would have >been >caught by Sauron. End of story. She might have been caught. Story might have ended. Or not. No way to tell. >> No. He relly didn't no any better, and that was just as well for him. > > >Do any better than what? > >The quote "Because he knew no better" is implying that C was unknowing >and/or >stupid. I argue that we knew the options of his choice, but that he also >knew >that you can still have a good live even though change has withdrawn >that which >you loves the most. He didn't know any better than life in ME. There was a reason for all the really great ones going (back) to Aman. It was a better place. C had never been there, so he didn't miss it. db ###### From: Kristian Damm Jensen Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 16:05:18 +0200 Organization: CAP Gemini Danmark A/S Lines: 27 Message-ID: <37AAEB9E.B4A276DF@capgemini.dk> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> <3795D020.B59AE1FF@capgemini.dk> <7npena$cq1$1@news.worldonline.nl> <37A8345F.351B9CF5@capgemini.dk> <7o9fth$1ii$1@weber.a2000.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.247.190.28 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!news.capgemini.se!not-for-mail db wrote: > Kristian Damm Jensen wrote in message <37A8345F.351B9CF5@capgemini.dk>... > >Sure. But whoever claimed fame to the parents of Einstein, Bohr, > >Beethoven or > >Bach? > > No one, except in individual cases where the parents where greats in their > own right. But that is beside the issue. Wether or not they were famous or > not, these celebrities would have been different people (not necessarily > "less") with different parents. That is precisely the issue. Someone (I no longer remember who) claimed greatness to Thingol. Part of the argument for this was that he was the father of Luthien. I protested, since - as we have agreed - no one should judged great because of their children. -- Kristian Damm Jensen kristian-damm.jensen@capgemini.dk ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:36:41 +0200 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 31 Message-ID: <7oev7k$q87$1@weber.a2000.nl> References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> <3795D020.B59AE1FF@capgemini.dk> <7npena$cq1$1@news.worldonline.nl> <37A8345F.351B9CF5@capgemini.dk> <7o9fth$1ii$1@weber.a2000.nl> <37AAEB9E.B4A276DF@capgemini.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: node11aae.a2000.nl X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 933953588 26887 24.132.26.174 (6 Aug 1999 15:33:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 1999 15:33:08 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!pascal.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Kristian Damm Jensen wrote in message <37AAEB9E.B4A276DF@capgemini.dk>... >> No one, except in individual cases where the parents where greats in their >> own right. But that is beside the issue. Wether or not they were famous or >> not, these celebrities would have been different people (not necessarily >> "less") with different parents. > >That is precisely the issue. Someone (I no longer remember who) claimed >greatness to Thingol. Part of the argument for this was that he was the >father of Luthien. I protested, since - as we have agreed - no one >should judged great because of their children. I said that. And I said it not because Thingol was great (in fact I count myself among those who feel he and Celeborn were always outclasses by their respective wives), but because you cannot disregard either Melian or Thingol _as parents_ of Luthien. No matter what Thingol's direct achievements, he was Luthien's father, and as such responsible to a large degree for who she was. db _________ Nothing is ever the same _________ Pls remove ".NoSpam" from email adres when replying _________ ###### Message-ID: <37AB7F33.52541F80@wizard.net> From: "James Kuyper Jr." Organization: Not Enough X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB,de,es,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn--Deep Thinker or Figurehead? References: <7m3cvc$qpa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7m4fg8$anc$1@news.worldonline.nl> <7m5cp4$t5@drn.newsguy.com> <7mas1b$4mn$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7mauhf$299h@drn.newsguy.com> <378A8777.2C13B5ED@bellsouth.net> <7memcr$2llu@drn.newsguy.com> <378ba3fa.3184441@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> <7mg049$1juu@drn.newsguy.com> <6ulnch8sj4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7mn6l6$aid$3@news.worldonline.nl> <3795D020.B59AE1FF@capgemini.dk> <7npena$cq1$1@news.worldonline.nl> <37A8345F.351B9CF5@capgemini.dk> <7o9fth$1ii$1@weber.a2000.nl> <37AAEB9E.B4A276DF@capgemini.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.46 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 933985867 206.161.15.46 (Fri, 06 Aug 1999 20:31:07 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 20:31:07 EDT Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 20:34:59 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.ispnews.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Kristian Damm Jensen wrote: ... > That is precisely the issue. Someone (I no longer remember who) claimed > greatness to Thingol. Part of the argument for this was that he was the > father of Luthien. I protested, since - as we have agreed - no one > should judged great because of their children. I don't think so - one of the most important jobs in the world is parenting, and having great children is an indicator (though not a perfect one) of great parenting. My favorite example of this is Lady Cordelia Vorkosigan of Barrayar, though she was a pretty impressive person in her own right. Read "Barrayar" by Lois McMaster Bujold.