From: ma_d@freenet.de (Martin) Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: advantages of ethernet MAC ip core Date: 12 Dec 2003 12:58:43 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: <8c88ba05.0312121258.7e68dc7c@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.104.218.89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1071262723 3126 127.0.0.1 (12 Dec 2003 20:58:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:58:43 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:36512 Hi all! Can someone tell me the advantages and disadvantages of an ethernet MAC core implemented in a FPGA for a System On Chip? Why to buy a lincese for several thousand dollar for an ethernet MAC core and there is also an external PHY chip on the board? There are also external chips which combine the MAC and the PHY layer. Thanks Martin ###### From: Marc Randolph User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031013 Thunderbird/0.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: advantages of ethernet MAC ip core References: <8c88ba05.0312121258.7e68dc7c@posting.google.com> In-Reply-To: <8c88ba05.0312121258.7e68dc7c@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.144.63 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr30.news.prodigy.com 1071289651 ST000 24.1.144.63 (Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:27:31 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:27:31 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: FKPO@MONXRRQBQXYZBMD]_\@VR]^@B@MCPWZKB]MPXHNDQUBLNTC@AWZWDXZXQ[K\FFSKCVM@F_N_DOBWVWG__LG@VVOIPLIGX\\BU_B@\P\PFX\B[APHTWAHDCKJF^NHD[YJAZMCY_CWG[SX\Y]^KC\HSZRWSWKGAY_PC[BQ[BXAS\F\\@DMTLFZFUE@\VL Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 04:27:31 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr30.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:36516 Martin wrote: > Hi all! > > Can someone tell me the advantages and disadvantages of an ethernet > MAC core implemented in a FPGA for a System On Chip? > > Why to buy a lincese for several thousand dollar for an ethernet MAC > core and there is also an external PHY chip on the board? > > There are also external chips which combine the MAC and the PHY layer. It's all about trade-offs, isn't it? Do you want to one large lump sum, or a little at a time over a long period? Do you have board space? Spare I/O? Voltage rails available? Do you need the PHY layer, or are you paying for something you won't put to good use? Have fun, Marc ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:09:30 -0600 Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:10:32 -0800 From: Mike Treseler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: advantages of ethernet MAC ip core References: <8c88ba05.0312121258.7e68dc7c@posting.google.com> In-Reply-To: <8c88ba05.0312121258.7e68dc7c@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <45SdnSfgV7V3_kaiRVn-tw@comcast.com> Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.168.106.17 X-Trace: sv3-1vYuQsT+WdS1yEtCpYMy+FoBPY25OISPJfffnnlX0XXVyLTDzLszOKfyaI2DzrWGd2sPxAyICA3imc3!ytWlL+P5M2gY2XkO1ZwmSisNrKNKyo1Jey8EYr47SpEHWqXyfYi8825T8V1GZQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!216.166.71.14!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:36519 Martin wrote: > Why to buy a lincese for several thousand dollar for an ethernet MAC > core and there is also an external PHY chip on the board? If you want to do ethernet you need both a MAC and PHY. The MAC is a CPU to PHY interface. Some CPUs have it built in and a few PHYs have it built in. Unlike the PHY, a MAC is purely digital and can be designed into an FPGA. If you are making thousands of boards, or have space constraints, a MAC core might make sense. If you are just making a few hundred, stick to commercial parts. -- Mike Treseler ###### From: "Jean Nicolle" Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga References: <8c88ba05.0312121258.7e68dc7c@posting.google.com> <45SdnSfgV7V3_kaiRVn-tw@comcast.com> Subject: Re: advantages of ethernet MAC ip core Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.116.5.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr25.news.prodigy.com 1071356276 ST000 67.116.5.200 (Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:57:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:57:56 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: [[PAPDON_REORRDYABH\_TTDFZ\@@FXLM@TDOCQDJ@_@FN\CDVW[AKK[J\]^HVKHG^EWZHBLO^[\NH_AZFWGN^\DHNVMX_DHHX[FSQKBOTS@@BP^]C@RHS_AGDDC[AJM_T[GZNRNZAY]GNCPBDYKOLK^_CZFWPGHZIXW@C[AFKBBQS@E@DAZ]VDFUNTQQ]FN Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:57:56 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr25.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!a0e6b194!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:36522 Actually, if you accept a few restrictions, you can do it all in the FPGA with very little outside electronics. I've got good success with 10BASE-T http://www.fpga4fun.com/10BASE-T.html Jean "Mike Treseler" wrote in message news:45SdnSfgV7V3_kaiRVn-tw@comcast.com... > Martin wrote: > > > Why to buy a lincese for several thousand dollar for an ethernet MAC > > core and there is also an external PHY chip on the board? > > If you want to do ethernet you > need both a MAC and PHY. > > The MAC is a CPU to PHY interface. > Some CPUs have it built in and a few > PHYs have it built in. Unlike the PHY, > a MAC is purely digital and can be > designed into an FPGA. > > If you are making thousands of > boards, or have space constraints, > a MAC core might make sense. > If you are just making a few hundred, > stick to commercial parts. > > -- Mike Treseler > ###### From: glen herrmannsfeldt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: advantages of ethernet MAC ip core References: <8c88ba05.0312121258.7e68dc7c@posting.google.com> <45SdnSfgV7V3_kaiRVn-tw@comcast.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.228.234.203 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s51 1071383857 12.228.234.203 (Sun, 14 Dec 2003 06:37:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 06:37:37 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 06:37:37 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!attbi_s51.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:36524 (snip question about ethernet in FPGA) Jean Nicolle wrote: > Actually, if you accept a few restrictions, you can do it all in the FPGA > with very little outside electronics. > I've got good success with 10BASE-T > http://www.fpga4fun.com/10BASE-T.html Do you need a PLL to do it? I thought it would, but maybe not. For 100baseTX you need three voltage levels. Maybe two outputs and appropriate resistors would work. Detecting three voltages on input will be hard, though. You still need the transformer, which usually doesn't come in an FPGA. -- glen ###### From: "Jean Nicolle" Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga References: <8c88ba05.0312121258.7e68dc7c@posting.google.com> <45SdnSfgV7V3_kaiRVn-tw@comcast.com> Subject: Re: advantages of ethernet MAC ip core Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.116.5.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr25.news.prodigy.com 1071388114 ST000 67.116.5.200 (Sun, 14 Dec 2003 02:48:34 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 02:48:34 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: [[PAPDCA[S@GBQQXGZKZOPDAPJT@QDDMEPWXODMMHXMTWA]EPEWUQBKZQLYJX\_ITFD_KFVLUN[DOM_A_NSYNWPFWNS[XV\I]PZ@BQ[@CDQDPCL^FKCBIPC@KLGEZEFNMDYMKHRL_YYYGDSSODXYN@[\BK[LVTWI@AXGQCOA_SAH@TPD^\AL\RLGRFWEARBM Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 07:48:34 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr25.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!a0e6b194!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:36526 No, I didn't use any PLL so far. For receiving, I oversampled the signal (possible since 10BASE-T is so slow) and for transmitting I used a 20MHz clock. 100BASE-T would surely have been more difficult, first the signal looks like 125MHz, and now you mention this 3 voltage signals... I didn't use any transformer, used capacitive coupling for the receiver, and direct coupling for the transmitter... works in the lab! A transformer might be necessary in real life for security or reliability reasons? Jean "glen herrmannsfeldt" wrote in message news:RyTCb.387078$ao4.1285856@attbi_s51... > (snip question about ethernet in FPGA) > > Jean Nicolle wrote: > > > Actually, if you accept a few restrictions, you can do it all in the FPGA > > with very little outside electronics. > > I've got good success with 10BASE-T > > http://www.fpga4fun.com/10BASE-T.html > > Do you need a PLL to do it? I thought it would, but maybe not. > > For 100baseTX you need three voltage levels. Maybe two outputs and > appropriate resistors would work. Detecting three voltages on input > will be hard, though. > > You still need the transformer, which usually doesn't come in > an FPGA. > > -- glen > ###### From: Jan Panteltje Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: advantages of ethernet MAC ip core Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:20:14 GMT Organization: Freeler Lines: 27 Message-ID: <1071408031.149768@evisp-news-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net> References: <8c88ba05.0312121258.7e68dc7c@posting.google.com> <45SdnSfgV7V3_kaiRVn-tw@comcast.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: enertel.nntp.evisp-01 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: nntpcache-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net 1071408031 19408 10.19.68.73 (14 Dec 2003 13:20:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nntpcache-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:20:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader-location: NewsFleX-1.5.6.1 (c) 'LIGHTSPEED' off line news reader for the Linux platform NewsFleX homepage: http://www.home.zonnet.nl/panteltje/newsflex/ and ftp download ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/linux/system/news/readers/ User-Agent: NewsFleX/1.5.6.1 (gcc version 2.95.3 Linux-2.4.20) Cache-Post-Path: evisp-news-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!unknown@62.21.166.60 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!feeder.enertel.nl!nntpfeed-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!news.enertel.nl!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:36528 On a sunny day (Sun, 14 Dec 2003 07:48:34 GMT) it happened "Jean Nicolle" wrote in : >No, I didn't use any PLL so far. >For receiving, I oversampled the signal (possible since 10BASE-T is so slow) >and for transmitting I used a 20MHz clock. >100BASE-T would surely have been more difficult, first the signal looks like >125MHz, and now you mention this 3 voltage signals... > >I didn't use any transformer, used capacitive coupling for the receiver, and >direct coupling for the transmitter... works in the lab! >A transformer might be necessary in real life for security or reliability >reasons? >Jean I have also build that little differential amp from fpga-fun site. Not all working yet (no time). I have not looked up the 100BASE-T spec yet, but 3 voltage levels can be done using 2 banks with 2 different references? For a 100MHz transformer, remember those 300Ohm to 75 coax VHF transformers? Every old TV had one, just a ferrite core with 3 or 4 turns... But my ethernet card was only 5.80 Euro, (6 $), there is a small transformer on it. So for 6 $ you have a transformer. Dunno how they can make these cards for that price. J ###### From: "John Retta" Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga References: <8c88ba05.0312121258.7e68dc7c@posting.google.com> <3FDF7EEB.7060509@flukenetworks.com> Subject: Re: advantages of ethernet MAC ip core Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 03:27:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.165.199.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net 1071631661 68.165.199.11 (Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:27:41 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:27:41 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!f41c5911!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:36588 That is correct. No Phy. My mistake in original email. -- Regards, John Retta email : jretta@rtc-inc.com web : www.rtc-inc.com "Mike Treseler" wrote in message news:3FDF7EEB.7060509@flukenetworks.com... > John Retta wrote: > > You can remove the cost variable from the equation. > > Check www.opencores.org. They offer open source code > > for numerous cores, including a MAC PHY > > I found the MAC, but the only PHY listed is for USB. > > > -- Mike Treseler > ###### From: glen herrmannsfeldt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: advantages of ethernet MAC ip core References: <8c88ba05.0312121258.7e68dc7c@posting.google.com> <45SdnSfgV7V3_kaiRVn-tw@comcast.com> <1071408031.149768@evisp-news-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net> In-Reply-To: <1071408031.149768@evisp-news-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Message-ID: <%4REb.157857$_M.737573@attbi_s54> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.228.234.203 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s54 1071898043 12.228.234.203 (Sat, 20 Dec 2003 05:27:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 05:27:23 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 05:27:23 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!colt.net!peernews-us.colt.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!attbi_s54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:36684 Jan Panteltje wrote: (snip) > I have also build that little differential amp from fpga-fun site. > Not all working yet (no time). > I have not looked up the 100BASE-T spec yet, but 3 voltage levels can > be done using 2 banks with 2 different references? > For a 100MHz transformer, remember those 300Ohm to 75 coax VHF > transformers? > Every old TV had one, just a ferrite core with 3 or 4 turns... > But my ethernet card was only 5.80 Euro, (6 $), there is a small > transformer on it. > So for 6 $ you have a transformer. > Dunno how they can make these cards for that price. There should be a DIP package near the RJ45 jack, which is three little ferrite transformers in one package. About like the TV ones, only even smaller. -- glen ###### From: damc4@gmx.de (Marc) Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: advantages of ethernet MAC ip core Date: 21 Dec 2003 02:40:40 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <8c88ba05.0312121258.7e68dc7c@posting.google.com> <3FDF7EEB.7060509@flukenetworks.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.83.21.23 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1072003240 32264 127.0.0.1 (21 Dec 2003 10:40:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:40:40 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:36695 Didn't you mean this OpenCores project? http://www.opencores.org/projects/ethmac/ It is an Ethernet MAC using the MII interface to connect to every PHY you want! I used the core in Altera FPGAs and have had no problems with it. Regards, Marc e-mail: Marc dot Colling at MaCo-Engineering dot de "John Retta" wrote in message news:... > That is correct. No Phy. My mistake in original email. > > -- > Regards, > John Retta > > email : jretta@rtc-inc.com > web : www.rtc-inc.com > > > "Mike Treseler" wrote in message > news:3FDF7EEB.7060509@flukenetworks.com... > > John Retta wrote: > > > You can remove the cost variable from the equation. > > > Check www.opencores.org. They offer open source code > > > for numerous cores, including a MAC PHY > > > > I found the MAC, but the only PHY listed is for USB. > > > > > > -- Mike Treseler > >