From: "GB" Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 15:03:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.178.183.245 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net 1062947019 209.178.183.245 (Sun, 07 Sep 2003 08:03:39 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 08:03:39 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32645 Hi, I'm a firmware guy pulled into a project well out of my area of expertise. My boss wants to build (essentially) a digital camera using an image sensor chip (1600x1200) and output it's data "as fast as possible" using USB2.0. His initial concept, being that I'm a firmware guy, was to use a "really fast micro." Normally the company is involved with small 8-bitter micro projects, so you can see I'm well out of my normal bounds. Now this seems like a pretty big stretch to me... and I don't see how it can be done without the speed of hardware (the image chips all seem to have clock speeds in the tens of MHz and the USB2 transfer rate is 480Mbps (theor.). Do aspects of this project require an FPGA to keep the data "as fast as possible?" If we use and FPGA for camera-to-RAM and then use a micro for the USB2 part, what kind of fast micros can move data at that rate? Also, this is something that I am sure we will have to contract out, so if you have any past experience with this, please let me know your thoughts (and if you are available). Thanks! ###### From: rickman Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 11:33:00 -0400 Organization: Arius, Inc Lines: 46 Message-ID: <3F5B4FAC.41D84F7B@yahoo.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa/4mqEsWbTAsv4lB1qWYUuJtgWHsMpkFZH0KkJWxq0lVYRrjYMD8jF X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 2003 15:34:16 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32644 GB wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm a firmware guy pulled into a project well out of my area of > expertise. My boss wants to build (essentially) a digital camera > using an image sensor chip (1600x1200) and output it's data > "as fast as possible" using USB2.0. His initial concept, being > that I'm a firmware guy, was to use a "really fast micro." > Normally the company is involved with small 8-bitter micro > projects, so you can see I'm well out of my normal bounds. > > Now this seems like a pretty big stretch to me... and I don't see > how it can be done without the speed of hardware (the image > chips all seem to have clock speeds in the tens of MHz and the > USB2 transfer rate is 480Mbps (theor.). Do aspects of this > project require an FPGA to keep the data "as fast as possible?" > If we use and FPGA for camera-to-RAM and then use a > micro for the USB2 part, what kind of fast micros can > move data at that rate? I don't think the micro should be in the data path. A micro can be used for control and management, but the data path should be pure hardware for maximum throughput. If you look around, you will find that there are USB chips with integrated micros (many are 8051s). But the USB 2.0 chips typically have a DMA engine for the data path. > Also, this is something that I am sure we will have to contract > out, so if you have any past experience with this, please let > me know your thoughts (and if you are available). We have some background in this area. If you are interested, please contact me at the email address below or at sales (at) arius.com. -- Rick "rickman" Collins rick.collins@XYarius.com Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY removed. Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX ###### Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 10:00:23 -0600 From: hamilton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.124.3.175 Message-ID: <3f5b561c_3@omega.dimensional.com> X-Trace: omega.dimensional.com 1062950428 206.124.3.175 (7 Sep 2003 10:00:28 -0600) Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!dimensional.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!omega.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32647 What image sensor chip are you looking at ??? GB wrote: > Hi, > > I'm a firmware guy pulled into a project well out of my area of > expertise. My boss wants to build (essentially) a digital camera > using an image sensor chip (1600x1200) and output it's data > "as fast as possible" using USB2.0. His initial concept, being > that I'm a firmware guy, was to use a "really fast micro." > Normally the company is involved with small 8-bitter micro > projects, so you can see I'm well out of my normal bounds. > > Now this seems like a pretty big stretch to me... and I don't see > how it can be done without the speed of hardware (the image > chips all seem to have clock speeds in the tens of MHz and the > USB2 transfer rate is 480Mbps (theor.). Do aspects of this > project require an FPGA to keep the data "as fast as possible?" > If we use and FPGA for camera-to-RAM and then use a > micro for the USB2 part, what kind of fast micros can > move data at that rate? > > Also, this is something that I am sure we will have to contract > out, so if you have any past experience with this, please let > me know your thoughts (and if you are available). > > Thanks! > > ###### Message-ID: <3F5B581D.55404BB8@attbi.com> From: Phil Hays Organization: phil-hays at above domain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.207.238.193 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1062950783 12.207.238.193 (Sun, 07 Sep 2003 16:06:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 16:06:23 GMT Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 16:06:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32649 GB wrote: > I'm a firmware guy pulled into a project well out of my area of > expertise. My boss wants to build (essentially) a digital camera > using an image sensor chip (1600x1200) and output it's data > "as fast as possible" using USB2.0. His initial concept, being > that I'm a firmware guy, was to use a "really fast micro." > Normally the company is involved with small 8-bitter micro > projects, so you can see I'm well out of my normal bounds. > > Now this seems like a pretty big stretch to me... and I don't see > how it can be done without the speed of hardware (the image > chips all seem to have clock speeds in the tens of MHz and the > USB2 transfer rate is 480Mbps (theor.). Do aspects of this > project require an FPGA to keep the data "as fast as possible?" > If we use and FPGA for camera-to-RAM and then use a > micro for the USB2 part, what kind of fast micros can > move data at that rate? > > Also, this is something that I am sure we will have to contract > out, so if you have any past experience with this, please let > me know your thoughts (and if you are available). Sounds like a good project for an FPGA. Micros don't keep up with this kind of data rates, standard parts do what everyone else is doing (and this doesn't sound standard), and ASICS can do this, if you have the volume to make it worthwhile, but it would be wise to prototype the design in a FPGA first. I've done several FPGA designs to solve similar problems. I'm not available, but I'm fairly sure I know of someone fairly good that is available, and if you send mail to (attbi.com phil-hays) I'll get you in contact with him. -- Phil Hays ###### From: John Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:25:50 +0100 Organization: Mostly scraps of paper .. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <591nlv87qkc1mlf0r6840sm18jd6tjm1hh@4ax.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.135.223.191 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 1062962641 28463 217.135.223.191 (7 Sep 2003 19:24:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 2003 19:24:01 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32654 On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 15:03:39 GMT, "GB" wrote: Look at the Cypress USB parts. They have a 8051 full/high speed part which might be useful. The 8051 code basically sets up endpoints, and doesn't have to actually transfer the data. Good luck. >Hi, > >I'm a firmware guy pulled into a project well out of my area of >expertise. My boss wants to build (essentially) a digital camera >using an image sensor chip (1600x1200) and output it's data >"as fast as possible" using USB2.0. His initial concept, being >that I'm a firmware guy, was to use a "really fast micro." >Normally the company is involved with small 8-bitter micro >projects, so you can see I'm well out of my normal bounds. > >Now this seems like a pretty big stretch to me... and I don't see >how it can be done without the speed of hardware (the image >chips all seem to have clock speeds in the tens of MHz and the >USB2 transfer rate is 480Mbps (theor.). Do aspects of this >project require an FPGA to keep the data "as fast as possible?" >If we use and FPGA for camera-to-RAM and then use a > micro for the USB2 part, what kind of fast micros can >move data at that rate? > >Also, this is something that I am sure we will have to contract >out, so if you have any past experience with this, please let >me know your thoughts (and if you are available). > >Thanks! > ###### From: Mario Trams Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 21:58:13 +0200 Organization: Chemnitz University of Technology Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3F5B4FAC.41D84F7B@yahoo.com> Reply-To: mtr@informatik.tu-chemnitz.de NNTP-Posting-Host: tnt147.hrz.tu-chemnitz.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Trace: anderson.hrz.tu-chemnitz.de 1062963981 24053 134.109.156.147 (7 Sep 2003 19:46:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tu-chemnitz.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:46:21 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: KNode/0.6.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32655 GB wrote: > It's just a still picture (not a movie). Aha, that's an important fact as it greatly reduces the requirements. Depending on what "as fast as possible" (in terms of latency) means, a DSP or a better RISC microprocessor might be a better solution for you. At least you won't have to introduce yourself to the new (for you) area of FPGAs. I don't know how the interface of the CCD chip you are planning to use is working, but I can imagine that it uses some standard interface that can be found on higher-class processors. So I suggest you to check some DSPs first (Analog Devices, Texas Instruments, Motorola, ...). Although you might not need the computing power they provide, perhaps you can use their hardware interfaces. DSPs are often used for image processing and therefore have a close relationship to CCDs. Perhaps you could also ask for this issue in comp.dsp. Regards, Mario -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Digital Force / Mario Trams Mario.Trams@informatik.tu-chemnitz.de Mario.Trams@wooden-technology.de Chemnitz University of Technology http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/~mtr Dept. of Computer Science Tel.: (+49) 371 531 1660 Chair of Computer Architecture Fax.: (+49) 371 531 1818 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: khimbittle@cliftonREMOVEsystems.com (Khim Bittle) Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 01:36:54 GMT Organization: Clifton Systems Inc. Lines: 90 Message-ID: <3f5bc733.6959805@news.compuserve.com> References: Reply-To: khimbittle@cliftonREMOVEsystems.com NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-ngx-vty10.as.wcom.net X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1062984872 29565 216.192.89.10 (8 Sep 2003 01:34:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 01:34:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!167.206.3.103.MISMATCH!news3.optonline.net!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone.austin.rr.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32662 On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 15:03:39 GMT, "GB" wrote: >Hi, > >I'm a firmware guy pulled into a project well out of my area of >expertise. My boss wants to build (essentially) a digital camera >using an image sensor chip (1600x1200) and output it's data >"as fast as possible" using USB2.0. His initial concept, being >that I'm a firmware guy, was to use a "really fast micro." >Normally the company is involved with small 8-bitter micro >projects, so you can see I'm well out of my normal bounds. > >Now this seems like a pretty big stretch to me... and I don't see >how it can be done without the speed of hardware (the image >chips all seem to have clock speeds in the tens of MHz and the >USB2 transfer rate is 480Mbps (theor.). Do aspects of this >project require an FPGA to keep the data "as fast as possible?" >If we use and FPGA for camera-to-RAM and then use a > micro for the USB2 part, what kind of fast micros can >move data at that rate? > >Also, this is something that I am sure we will have to contract >out, so if you have any past experience with this, please let >me know your thoughts (and if you are available). > >Thanks! > > Hello : The first question that comes to mind is why are you designing this ? ( other than your boss told you to ) One answer may be high volume production where an absolutely cost optimized solution is the correct answer. Another answer may be special requirements for your application. If this is so then you have not provided enough information above to tell us what these special requirements are to suggest an architecture. I ask this question simply because there are numerous small oem camera modules on the market with hi res cmos sensors and USB2 output that can get you to market rapidly and become cost effective as volumes increase. An example may be found at http://www.lumenera.com/oem.htm If we proceed along the path that you need to design such a module : Several companies are coming out with single chip imaging controllers ( national ,etc ) but I am not aware of an available part to do exactly what you are looking for ... but I would do a very careful search as this is the most streamlined approach. An FPGA may be a good solution to interconnect the sensor module , capture memory and the USB controller. The controller ( Cypress ) will normally setup the USB endpoints etc. and then get out of the way. The FPGA can handle all of the high speed timing and perhaps a SDRAM controller. Another most intriguing solution (hey this is the comp.arch.fpga group) , however the most engineering intensive ($) , would be to use an FPGA with softcore processor and perhaps a USB core ... so the entire solution except sensor, memory and USB physical drive chip could be in the FPGA. The softcore processor could be programmed in C and code changes simply bootloaded in to a flash memory by the softcore processor without an FPGA design change ( nice when you have contracted the FPGA design out of house yet the in house programmers can write C code which runs on the processor in the FPGA ). ( I am currently involved with a video design utilizing Altera Nios softcore processor / Cyclone FPGA designs ) Good Luck, check out the link below, we have significant video and imaging experience and may be able to assist your design efforts. Khim Bittle khimbittle@cliftonREMOVEsystems.com (remove REMOVE from email address to respond) Clifton Systems Inc. http://www.cliftonsystems.com/design ###### From: johnjakson@yahoo.com (john jakson) Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Date: 7 Sep 2003 19:30:49 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3f5b561c_3@omega.dimensional.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.60.57.20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1062988252 19389 127.0.0.1 (8 Sep 2003 02:30:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Sep 2003 02:30:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32679 "GB" wrote in message news:... > "hamilton" wrote in message > news:3f5b561c_3@omega.dimensional.com... > > > What image sensor chip are you looking at ??? > > > > That's another undecided at this time, but CMOS most likely. > > GB Until recently I was under the impression that CMOS sensors were junk and were of low resolution & quality typically 320.240 used in $0-50 cameras. I have an old Connectix webcam device thats is all green that demonstrates that. Recently though a Micron engineer persuaded me that CMOS is looking very much up and showed me some upcoming sensors for both high resolution & higher quality still not quite as good as CCD but far cheaper to make & potentially far easy to integrate with externl interfaces. If the quality is there, I would expect USB2/FW to end up on chip. I will wait and see if they show up in the mid range cameras coming soon. But check out their imaging division for specs if you care. ###### From: Magnus Homann Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Date: 08 Sep 2003 14:13:34 +0200 Organization: Chalmers univ. of Technology Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <3F5B4FAC.41D84F7B@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mis.dtek.chalmers.se X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!pop-news-1.colt-telecom.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!newsfeed1!bredband!'newsfeed1.telenordia.se'!algonet!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!dd.chalmers.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32665 "GB" writes: > "rickman" wrote in message > news:3F5B4FAC.41D84F7B@yahoo.com... > > > I don't think the micro should be in the data path. A micro can be used > > for control and management, but the data path should be pure hardware > > for maximum throughput. If you look around, you will find that there > > are USB chips with integrated micros (many are 8051s). But the USB 2.0 > > chips typically have a DMA engine for the data path. > > From what I understand, the image size is 1-2 MB (only need 8-bit depth) > large and the USB packets are quite small in comparison. So there needs to > be some smarts for setting up what part of the data gets DMA'd to the > USB endpoint buffers for any given transfer? Or does the FPGA > implementation just point to the image data stored in RAM (assuming image > frame captured to some local RAM buffer) and never move the data from > image_buffer -> to_endpoint -> to_USB (essentially skipping the middle > man by just using a pointer of sorts)? > > It's just a still picture (not a movie). Doesn't this seem like a somewhat > common function -- meaning wouldn't there be standard chips or > implementations that do this? One suggestion is to use a fairly decent "microcontroller" such as Intel Xscale (low power per MIPS) device. USB means stack. An USB stack couldd be bought from SoftConnex, for instance. A fitting device might be found from Transdimension. Homann (Yes a relation exists) -- Magnus Homann, M.Sc. CS & E d0asta@dtek.chalmers.se ###### From: Sander Vesik Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 01:42:27 +0000 (UTC) Organization: ERA/EKI FO Lines: 24 Message-ID: <1063071758.712280@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <3f5b561c_3@omega.dimensional.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: haldjas.folklore.ee X-Trace: kadri.ut.ee 1063071747 28755 193.40.6.121 (9 Sep 2003 01:42:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@kadri.ut.ee NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 01:42:27 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.6-RELEASE (i386)) Cache-Post-Path: haldjas.folklore.ee!unknown@localhost X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-stoc.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!fi.sn.net!newsfeed1.fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed.uninet.ee!news.ut.ee!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32690 john jakson wrote: > "GB" wrote in message news:... >> "hamilton" wrote in message >> news:3f5b561c_3@omega.dimensional.com... >> >> > What image sensor chip are you looking at ??? >> > >> >> That's another undecided at this time, but CMOS most likely. >> >> GB > > Until recently I was under the impression that CMOS sensors were junk > and were of low resolution & quality typically 320.240 used in $0-50 > cameras. I have an old Connectix webcam device thats is all green that > demonstrates that. I believe all present digtal cameras use CMOS. That includes monsters in the 16Mpixel range. -- Sander +++ Out of cheese error +++ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Date: 09 Sep 2003 13:23:04 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6uu17murxj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3f5b561c_3@omega.dimensional.com> <1063071758.712280@haldjas.folklore.ee> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1063106584 363 10.0.3.2 (9 Sep 2003 11:23:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Sep 2003 11:23:04 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32707 Sander Vesik writes: > john jakson wrote: > > > > Until recently I was under the impression that CMOS sensors were junk > > and were of low resolution & quality typically 320.240 used in $0-50 > > cameras. I have an old Connectix webcam device thats is all green that > > demonstrates that. > > I believe all present digtal cameras use CMOS. That includes monsters > in the 16Mpixel range. Nope. CMOS sensors are found in cheap cameras up to about 1Mpixel and up to about $100. Above that it is all CCD sensors. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: "Jonathan Bromley" Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:52:06 +0100 Lines: 91 Message-ID: References: <3F5B4FAC.41D84F7B@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: external-2.doulos.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1063126491 15752 62.49.79.188 (9 Sep 2003 16:54:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:54:51 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32717 "GB" wrote in message news:ZMJ6b.2615$PE6.812@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net... > It's just a still picture (not a movie). Which means that you may be able, after all, to do the whole thing with a micro - if you can tolerate very long image readout times (~2 second). CCDs *can* output their pixels very fast - they *must* do so for video applications, because you have to be able to read out all 2M-ish pixels in one frame time - but they don't *have* to. The image sensor manufacturer probably specs some stupid-fast minimum pixel rate, but you don't need to believe that. They simply don't want the hassle of testing the things at low data rates. Very, very low data rates will degrade the image because of leakage of charge in the CCD transfer registers, but only if you go to stupid-long readout times. So here's the deal: Using your micro.... (1) Pulse the frame transfer clock just once, like it says in the data sheet for the beginning of a frame. This transfers all the accumulated photo-optical charge from imaging cells (pixels) to transfer cells in the CCD. The now-empty imaging cells immediately start to accumulate photo-charge, but you can suppress this process by using the CCD's "electronic shutter" feature - typically, this involves pulling the anti-blooming gates to a special voltage so that any new photo-charge is spilled off into the anti-blooming drain. (2) Wiggle the vertical AND horizontal transfer clocks TOGETHER using your micro. Yes, I know the manufacturer's data doesn't tell you to do this. All you're trying to do here is to clean out the transfer registers as quickly as you can. The video output will be garbage during this process. Keep going until you have clocked the vertical transfer at least twice as many times as there are video lines; remember that your camera has been exposing for a very long time before all this business began, so there's a lot of photo-charge sloshing around that needs to be cleared out thoroughly. Anyway, you need only around two thousand cycles of the clock, and you don't need to DO anything on those cycles - just keep on clocking! (?) It's probably a good idea to do (1) and (2) once more, particularly if the camera has been idling in a high light level for a long time. (3) Stop all the clocks, to keep the camera nice and quiet. Open the electronic shutter so that exposure can begin. (If you prefer, you could have opened the shutter at any time during (2). This makes the process a bit more complicated, but quicker). Time your exposure, then: (4) Hit the frame transfer to get your desired image into the transfer registers. Then you can close the electronic shutter again, so that any further illumination does no harm. (5) Now you need to get the image out of the camera. You can do this at leisure, but you should follow the camera manufacturer's *sequencing* of vertical and horizontal clocks to the letter. Because you're in no hurry, software can do this. Digitise the resulting outgoing video, capture it through the micro, and you're done. As slowly as you like. To reduce shutter latency, it's better to loop around steps (1) and (2) continuously so that the camera is always ready for a new exposure in no more than the time it takes to do (2). Details will vary dramatically between cameras, but this is do-able with any interline transfer CCD and it greatly reduces the hardware requirements - at terrible cost of image capture rate, of course. You'll be doing well if you can get an image out within a second. It's probably no use to you, but it's worth a thought if you are hardware-averse. -- Jonathan Bromley, Consultant DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Verification * Project Services Doulos Ltd. Church Hatch, 22 Market Place, Ringwood, Hampshire, BH24 1AW, UK Tel: +44 (0)1425 471223 mail: jonathan.bromley@doulos.com Fax: +44 (0)1425 471573 Web: http://www.doulos.com The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated. ###### From: Andrew Paule User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090403060309010104060907" Lines: 211 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:57:32 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.229.197.159 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1063245233 63.229.197.159 (Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:53:53 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:53:53 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32787 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090403060309010104060907 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Use the micro to set up the packets in an FGPA/ASIC under isocronous control, and stream them out from there, if you can deal with the low data/frame rates - I used to build large format (4 x 5 and hasseblad) camera digital inserts using big CCD's - USB (even at 12Mbs is too slow for this stuff ( a 1Mpixel at 8 bit will require 2/3 sec + overhead to empty one frame) - tell you boss it sounds cool, but you need 1394 (firewire) or SCSI to do this worth a DS. If you simply want to capture one frame and empty it - consider dumping it to RAM and then out from there. Leaving stuff on a sensor - CCD or CMOS (yes CCD's are CMOS, both n and p type are built) results in large dark currents that make them unusable. At 2/3 second, well depth will be a large consideration here - electrons like to move around. Andrew james wrote: >On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 15:03:39 GMT, "GB" >wrote: > > > >>Hi, >> >>I'm a firmware guy pulled into a project well out of my area of >>expertise. My boss wants to build (essentially) a digital camera >>using an image sensor chip (1600x1200) and output it's data >>"as fast as possible" using USB2.0. His initial concept, being >>that I'm a firmware guy, was to use a "really fast micro." >>Normally the company is involved with small 8-bitter micro >>projects, so you can see I'm well out of my normal bounds. >> >>Now this seems like a pretty big stretch to me... and I don't see >>how it can be done without the speed of hardware (the image >>chips all seem to have clock speeds in the tens of MHz and the >>USB2 transfer rate is 480Mbps (theor.). Do aspects of this >>project require an FPGA to keep the data "as fast as possible?" >>If we use and FPGA for camera-to-RAM and then use a >>micro for the USB2 part, what kind of fast micros can >>move data at that rate? >> >>Also, this is something that I am sure we will have to contract >>out, so if you have any past experience with this, please let >>me know your thoughts (and if you are available). >> >>Thanks! >> >> >> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >1600x 1200 is essentially a 2 megapixel camera! > >1) First step is to determine what the camera is going to be used for! > >Terrestial or astronomical or video photography > >2) Pick an imager! Either Sony, TI, Kodak, or Panasonic to name a few. > >3) From the Imager specs you can derive how fast the data can be >clocked out of the imager. Most imagers will transfer the image area >into a serial register one line at a time. How fast this is depends on >how fast you can clock the serial register. Transfer speeds differ >from vendor to vendor. > >4) Then build the circuitry around the imager based on its ability to >transfer the full image as fast as you want and that meet your cost >goals. > >Again depending on what you determine as reasonably fast will effect >the cost of the imager along with its size. Another consideration will >be the speed of the ADC. That can slow things down also. Even if you >can clock the serial register of the imager out at 20Mhz rate, if the >ADC sasmple rate is 10 MHz that is as fast as you can get the pixel >data out. > >IF your imager's max clock frequency for the serial register is 20 >MHz., you can clock a 1600 pixel row out in about 80 uS. Or the whole >image area out of the chip in about 100 mS. So your microC or FPGA >will have to read the ADC once every 50 nS or so during the readout >period. > >There are some CPU cores as well as USB cores that can drop into an >FPGA. You can build a large FIFO or add onboard flash to store the >picture. > >It is not crazy at all in fact it is quite doable. The two key items >in a digital camera is the imager and the ADC. All the rest is digital >hardware that is well suited for an ASIC or FPGA. > > >james > > > --------------090403060309010104060907 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Use the micro to set up the packets in an FGPA/ASIC under isocronous control, and stream them out from there, if you can deal with the low data/frame rates - I used to build large format (4 x 5 and hasseblad) camera digital inserts using big CCD's - USB (even at 12Mbs is too slow for this stuff  ( a 1Mpixel at 8 bit will require 2/3 sec + overhead to empty one frame) - tell you boss it sounds cool, but you need 1394 (firewire) or SCSI to do this worth a DS.  If you simply want to capture one frame and empty it - consider dumping it to RAM and then out  from there.  Leaving stuff on a sensor - CCD or CMOS (yes CCD's are CMOS, both n and p  type are built)  results in large dark currents that make them unusable.  At 2/3 second, well depth will be a large consideration here - electrons like to move around.

Andrew

james wrote:
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 15:03:39 GMT, "GB" <donotspam_grantbt@jps.net>
wrote:

  
Hi,

I'm a firmware guy pulled into a project well out of my area of
expertise.  My boss wants to build (essentially) a digital camera
using an image sensor chip (1600x1200) and output it's data
"as fast as possible" using USB2.0.  His initial concept, being
that I'm a firmware guy, was to use a "really fast micro."
Normally the company is involved with small 8-bitter micro
projects, so you can see I'm well out of my normal bounds.

Now this seems like a pretty big stretch to me... and I don't see
how it can be done without the speed of hardware (the image
chips all seem to have clock speeds in the tens of MHz and the
USB2 transfer rate is 480Mbps (theor.).  Do aspects of this
project require an FPGA to keep the data "as fast as possible?"
If we use and FPGA for camera-to-RAM and then use a
micro for the USB2 part, what kind of fast micros can
move data at that rate?

Also, this is something that I am sure we will have to contract
out, so if you have any past experience with this, please let
me know your thoughts (and if you are available).

Thanks!

    
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
1600x 1200 is essentially a 2 megapixel camera!

1) First step is to determine what the camera is going to be used for!

Terrestial or astronomical or video photography  

2) Pick an imager! Either Sony, TI, Kodak, or Panasonic to name a few.

3) From the Imager specs you can derive how fast the data can be
clocked out of the imager. Most imagers will transfer the image area
into a serial register one line at a time. How fast this is depends on
how fast you can clock the serial register. Transfer speeds differ
from vendor to vendor. 

4) Then build the circuitry around the imager based on its ability to
transfer the full image as fast as you want and that meet your cost
goals.  

Again depending on what you determine as reasonably fast will effect
the cost of the imager along with its size. Another consideration will
be the speed of the ADC. That can slow things down also. Even if you
can clock the serial register of the imager out at 20Mhz rate, if the
ADC sasmple rate is 10 MHz  that is as fast as you can get the pixel
data out. 

IF your imager's max clock frequency for the serial register is 20
MHz., you can clock a 1600 pixel row out in about 80 uS. Or the whole
image area out of the chip in about 100 mS.  So your microC or FPGA
will have to read the ADC once every 50 nS or so during the readout
period. 

There are some CPU cores as well as USB cores that can drop into an
FPGA. You can build a large FIFO or add onboard flash to store the
picture. 

It is not crazy at all in fact it is quite doable. The two key items
in a digital camera is the imager and the ADC. All the rest is digital
hardware that is well suited for an ASIC or FPGA.  


james
--------------090403060309010104060907-- ###### From: james Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Reply-To: buckanear7@yahoo.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 106 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:36:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.32.205.181 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net 1063287389 66.32.205.181 (Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:36:29 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:36:29 EDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32814 This is not my project. It's GB's project. Still you can not build hardware around an unknown sensor. You have to pick an imager and then build the hardware/firmware around it. james On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:57:32 -0500, Andrew Paule wrote: >Use the micro to set up the packets in an FGPA/ASIC under isocronous >control, and stream them out from there, if you can deal with the low >data/frame rates - I used to build large format (4 x 5 and hasseblad) >camera digital inserts using big CCD's - USB (even at 12Mbs is too slow >for this stuff ( a 1Mpixel at 8 bit will require 2/3 sec + overhead to >empty one frame) - tell you boss it sounds cool, but you need 1394 >(firewire) or SCSI to do this worth a DS. If you simply want to capture >one frame and empty it - consider dumping it to RAM and then out from >there. Leaving stuff on a sensor - CCD or CMOS (yes CCD's are CMOS, >both n and p type are built) results in large dark currents that make >them unusable. At 2/3 second, well depth will be a large consideration >here - electrons like to move around. > >Andrew > >james wrote: > >>On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 15:03:39 GMT, "GB" >>wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi, >>> >>>I'm a firmware guy pulled into a project well out of my area of >>>expertise. My boss wants to build (essentially) a digital camera >>>using an image sensor chip (1600x1200) and output it's data >>>"as fast as possible" using USB2.0. His initial concept, being >>>that I'm a firmware guy, was to use a "really fast micro." >>>Normally the company is involved with small 8-bitter micro >>>projects, so you can see I'm well out of my normal bounds. >>> >>>Now this seems like a pretty big stretch to me... and I don't see >>>how it can be done without the speed of hardware (the image >>>chips all seem to have clock speeds in the tens of MHz and the >>>USB2 transfer rate is 480Mbps (theor.). Do aspects of this >>>project require an FPGA to keep the data "as fast as possible?" >>>If we use and FPGA for camera-to-RAM and then use a >>>micro for the USB2 part, what kind of fast micros can >>>move data at that rate? >>> >>>Also, this is something that I am sure we will have to contract >>>out, so if you have any past experience with this, please let >>>me know your thoughts (and if you are available). >>> >>>Thanks! >>> >>> >>> >>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>1600x 1200 is essentially a 2 megapixel camera! >> >>1) First step is to determine what the camera is going to be used for! >> >>Terrestial or astronomical or video photography >> >>2) Pick an imager! Either Sony, TI, Kodak, or Panasonic to name a few. >> >>3) From the Imager specs you can derive how fast the data can be >>clocked out of the imager. Most imagers will transfer the image area >>into a serial register one line at a time. How fast this is depends on >>how fast you can clock the serial register. Transfer speeds differ >>from vendor to vendor. >> >>4) Then build the circuitry around the imager based on its ability to >>transfer the full image as fast as you want and that meet your cost >>goals. >> >>Again depending on what you determine as reasonably fast will effect >>the cost of the imager along with its size. Another consideration will >>be the speed of the ADC. That can slow things down also. Even if you >>can clock the serial register of the imager out at 20Mhz rate, if the >>ADC sasmple rate is 10 MHz that is as fast as you can get the pixel >>data out. >> >>IF your imager's max clock frequency for the serial register is 20 >>MHz., you can clock a 1600 pixel row out in about 80 uS. Or the whole >>image area out of the chip in about 100 mS. So your microC or FPGA >>will have to read the ADC once every 50 nS or so during the readout >>period. >> >>There are some CPU cores as well as USB cores that can drop into an >>FPGA. You can build a large FIFO or add onboard flash to store the >>picture. >> >>It is not crazy at all in fact it is quite doable. The two key items >>in a digital camera is the imager and the ADC. All the rest is digital >>hardware that is well suited for an ASIC or FPGA. >> >> >>james >> >> >> ###### From: Andrew Paule User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 128 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:51:09 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.229.199.15 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1063298849 63.229.199.15 (Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:47:29 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:47:29 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32784 Sorry - no offense meant. Andrew james wrote: >This is not my project. It's GB's project. > >Still you can not build hardware around an unknown sensor. You have to >pick an imager and then build the hardware/firmware around it. > >james > > >On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:57:32 -0500, Andrew Paule >wrote: > > > >>Use the micro to set up the packets in an FGPA/ASIC under isocronous >>control, and stream them out from there, if you can deal with the low >>data/frame rates - I used to build large format (4 x 5 and hasseblad) >>camera digital inserts using big CCD's - USB (even at 12Mbs is too slow >>for this stuff ( a 1Mpixel at 8 bit will require 2/3 sec + overhead to >>empty one frame) - tell you boss it sounds cool, but you need 1394 >>(firewire) or SCSI to do this worth a DS. If you simply want to capture >>one frame and empty it - consider dumping it to RAM and then out from >>there. Leaving stuff on a sensor - CCD or CMOS (yes CCD's are CMOS, >>both n and p type are built) results in large dark currents that make >>them unusable. At 2/3 second, well depth will be a large consideration >>here - electrons like to move around. >> >>Andrew >> >>james wrote: >> >> >> >>>On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 15:03:39 GMT, "GB" >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Hi, >>>> >>>>I'm a firmware guy pulled into a project well out of my area of >>>>expertise. My boss wants to build (essentially) a digital camera >>>>using an image sensor chip (1600x1200) and output it's data >>>>"as fast as possible" using USB2.0. His initial concept, being >>>>that I'm a firmware guy, was to use a "really fast micro." >>>>Normally the company is involved with small 8-bitter micro >>>>projects, so you can see I'm well out of my normal bounds. >>>> >>>>Now this seems like a pretty big stretch to me... and I don't see >>>>how it can be done without the speed of hardware (the image >>>>chips all seem to have clock speeds in the tens of MHz and the >>>>USB2 transfer rate is 480Mbps (theor.). Do aspects of this >>>>project require an FPGA to keep the data "as fast as possible?" >>>>If we use and FPGA for camera-to-RAM and then use a >>>>micro for the USB2 part, what kind of fast micros can >>>>move data at that rate? >>>> >>>>Also, this is something that I am sure we will have to contract >>>>out, so if you have any past experience with this, please let >>>>me know your thoughts (and if you are available). >>>> >>>>Thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>1600x 1200 is essentially a 2 megapixel camera! >>> >>>1) First step is to determine what the camera is going to be used for! >>> >>>Terrestial or astronomical or video photography >>> >>>2) Pick an imager! Either Sony, TI, Kodak, or Panasonic to name a few. >>> >>>3) From the Imager specs you can derive how fast the data can be >>>clocked out of the imager. Most imagers will transfer the image area >>>into a serial register one line at a time. How fast this is depends on >>>how fast you can clock the serial register. Transfer speeds differ >>> >>> >>>from vendor to vendor. >> >> >>>4) Then build the circuitry around the imager based on its ability to >>>transfer the full image as fast as you want and that meet your cost >>>goals. >>> >>>Again depending on what you determine as reasonably fast will effect >>>the cost of the imager along with its size. Another consideration will >>>be the speed of the ADC. That can slow things down also. Even if you >>>can clock the serial register of the imager out at 20Mhz rate, if the >>>ADC sasmple rate is 10 MHz that is as fast as you can get the pixel >>>data out. >>> >>>IF your imager's max clock frequency for the serial register is 20 >>>MHz., you can clock a 1600 pixel row out in about 80 uS. Or the whole >>>image area out of the chip in about 100 mS. So your microC or FPGA >>>will have to read the ADC once every 50 nS or so during the readout >>>period. >>> >>>There are some CPU cores as well as USB cores that can drop into an >>>FPGA. You can build a large FIFO or add onboard flash to store the >>>picture. >>> >>>It is not crazy at all in fact it is quite doable. The two key items >>>in a digital camera is the imager and the ADC. All the rest is digital >>>hardware that is well suited for an ASIC or FPGA. >>> >>> >>>james >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Date: 11 Sep 2003 21:39:14 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6uu17ji07x.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1063309154 617 10.0.3.2 (11 Sep 2003 19:39:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 2003 19:39:14 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32816 Andrew Paule writes: > USB (even at 12Mbs is too slow > for this stuff ( a 1Mpixel at 8 bit will require 2/3 sec + overhead to > empty one frame) - tell you boss it sounds cool, but you need 1394 > (firewire) or SCSI to do this worth a DS. According to the Subject: line he is intending to use USB2. That is 480MBit/s, according to http://www.usb.org/faq/ans2#q1 . Should be fast enough. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: "lichau" Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga References: Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.63.118.155 X-Complaints-To: abuse@starband.net X-Trace: twister2.starband.net 1063323506 148.63.118.155 (Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:38:04 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:38:04 EDT Organization: Starband Communications Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:38:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone1.starband.net!twister2.starband.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32884 We have a CMOS (1.3 mpixel) camera based on TI TMS320DM642 DSP (4000 MIPS) with USB 2.0 connectivity. Changing it to your sensor should be straightforward, since the sensor is on its own board. Contact me at rich@XXapollo-image.com; take out the "XX" and I will give you the password to our web site. "GB" wrote in message news:fNH6b.2542$PE6.510@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net... > Hi, > > I'm a firmware guy pulled into a project well out of my area of > expertise. My boss wants to build (essentially) a digital camera > using an image sensor chip (1600x1200) and output it's data > "as fast as possible" using USB2.0. His initial concept, being > that I'm a firmware guy, was to use a "really fast micro." > Normally the company is involved with small 8-bitter micro > projects, so you can see I'm well out of my normal bounds. > > Now this seems like a pretty big stretch to me... and I don't see > how it can be done without the speed of hardware (the image > chips all seem to have clock speeds in the tens of MHz and the > USB2 transfer rate is 480Mbps (theor.). Do aspects of this > project require an FPGA to keep the data "as fast as possible?" > If we use and FPGA for camera-to-RAM and then use a > micro for the USB2 part, what kind of fast micros can > move data at that rate? > > Also, this is something that I am sure we will have to contract > out, so if you have any past experience with this, please let > me know your thoughts (and if you are available). > > Thanks! > > ###### From: Andrew Paule User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? References: <6uu17ji07x.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> In-Reply-To: <6uu17ji07x.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:25:09 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.229.199.15 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1063326089 63.229.199.15 (Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:21:29 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:21:29 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32847 Should be good - burst rate is listed at 480, but fast wide SCSI had burst rates like this - what is the sustained transfer rate - still not really documented. http://www.cypress.com/cfuploads/img/products/CY7C68013.pdf is a good chip for doing this, I think. Tell me how it turns out Andrew Neil Franklin wrote: >Andrew Paule writes: > > > >>USB (even at 12Mbs is too slow >>for this stuff ( a 1Mpixel at 8 bit will require 2/3 sec + overhead to >>empty one frame) - tell you boss it sounds cool, but you need 1394 >>(firewire) or SCSI to do this worth a DS. >> >> > >According to the Subject: line he is intending to use USB2. > >That is 480MBit/s, according to http://www.usb.org/faq/ans2#q1 . > >Should be fast enough. > > >-- >Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ >Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith >- hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware > code generates the software, have you coded today? > > ###### From: james Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: CMOS camera w/ USB2 -- crazy? Reply-To: buckanear7@yahoo.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 139 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:29:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.32.205.181 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net 1063326567 66.32.205.181 (Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:29:27 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:29:27 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:32886 Andrew No problem. james On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:51:09 -0500, Andrew Paule wrote: >Sorry - no offense meant. > >Andrew > >james wrote: > >>This is not my project. It's GB's project. >> >>Still you can not build hardware around an unknown sensor. You have to >>pick an imager and then build the hardware/firmware around it. >> >>james >> >> >>On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:57:32 -0500, Andrew Paule >>wrote: >> >> >> >>>Use the micro to set up the packets in an FGPA/ASIC under isocronous >>>control, and stream them out from there, if you can deal with the low >>>data/frame rates - I used to build large format (4 x 5 and hasseblad) >>>camera digital inserts using big CCD's - USB (even at 12Mbs is too slow >>>for this stuff ( a 1Mpixel at 8 bit will require 2/3 sec + overhead to >>>empty one frame) - tell you boss it sounds cool, but you need 1394 >>>(firewire) or SCSI to do this worth a DS. If you simply want to capture >>>one frame and empty it - consider dumping it to RAM and then out from >>>there. Leaving stuff on a sensor - CCD or CMOS (yes CCD's are CMOS, >>>both n and p type are built) results in large dark currents that make >>>them unusable. At 2/3 second, well depth will be a large consideration >>>here - electrons like to move around. >>> >>>Andrew >>> >>>james wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 15:03:39 GMT, "GB" >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Hi, >>>>> >>>>>I'm a firmware guy pulled into a project well out of my area of >>>>>expertise. My boss wants to build (essentially) a digital camera >>>>>using an image sensor chip (1600x1200) and output it's data >>>>>"as fast as possible" using USB2.0. His initial concept, being >>>>>that I'm a firmware guy, was to use a "really fast micro." >>>>>Normally the company is involved with small 8-bitter micro >>>>>projects, so you can see I'm well out of my normal bounds. >>>>> >>>>>Now this seems like a pretty big stretch to me... and I don't see >>>>>how it can be done without the speed of hardware (the image >>>>>chips all seem to have clock speeds in the tens of MHz and the >>>>>USB2 transfer rate is 480Mbps (theor.). Do aspects of this >>>>>project require an FPGA to keep the data "as fast as possible?" >>>>>If we use and FPGA for camera-to-RAM and then use a >>>>>micro for the USB2 part, what kind of fast micros can >>>>>move data at that rate? >>>>> >>>>>Also, this is something that I am sure we will have to contract >>>>>out, so if you have any past experience with this, please let >>>>>me know your thoughts (and if you are available). >>>>> >>>>>Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>>1600x 1200 is essentially a 2 megapixel camera! >>>> >>>>1) First step is to determine what the camera is going to be used for! >>>> >>>>Terrestial or astronomical or video photography >>>> >>>>2) Pick an imager! Either Sony, TI, Kodak, or Panasonic to name a few. >>>> >>>>3) From the Imager specs you can derive how fast the data can be >>>>clocked out of the imager. Most imagers will transfer the image area >>>>into a serial register one line at a time. How fast this is depends on >>>>how fast you can clock the serial register. Transfer speeds differ >>>> >>>> >>>>from vendor to vendor. >>> >>> >>>>4) Then build the circuitry around the imager based on its ability to >>>>transfer the full image as fast as you want and that meet your cost >>>>goals. >>>> >>>>Again depending on what you determine as reasonably fast will effect >>>>the cost of the imager along with its size. Another consideration will >>>>be the speed of the ADC. That can slow things down also. Even if you >>>>can clock the serial register of the imager out at 20Mhz rate, if the >>>>ADC sasmple rate is 10 MHz that is as fast as you can get the pixel >>>>data out. >>>> >>>>IF your imager's max clock frequency for the serial register is 20 >>>>MHz., you can clock a 1600 pixel row out in about 80 uS. Or the whole >>>>image area out of the chip in about 100 mS. So your microC or FPGA >>>>will have to read the ADC once every 50 nS or so during the readout >>>>period. >>>> >>>>There are some CPU cores as well as USB cores that can drop into an >>>>FPGA. You can build a large FIFO or add onboard flash to store the >>>>picture. >>>> >>>>It is not crazy at all in fact it is quite doable. The two key items >>>>in a digital camera is the imager and the ADC. All the rest is digital >>>>hardware that is well suited for an ASIC or FPGA. >>>> >>>> >>>>james >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >>