NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:16:59 -0500 From: "Patrick MacGregor" Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: BGA Xray inspection costs? Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:16:56 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.55.246.189 X-Trace: sv3-xkkEsWJMOipSzJ3mWFWjzTcfthLkY64cAKWMN/P75MdgHHcTXLA+sYx29XwUuvnsUbNRMCVWKfqcnBT!XOWHWFwplU6lQTHJaW5ZTINlKbTiK4E7PHiO55zIwvO0tJXBEz9jGJrARciUVA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:29624 Does anyone here have any guestimates or general rules-of-thumb used to figure the cost of Xray inspection for a BGA part on a PCB? Here's the scenario: We are designing a board and can choose between inexpensive Cyclone FPGAs in the 240-pin TQFP, or we could move to a Stratix in the 672 BGA. The Cyclone in question costs under $30. The Stratix costs ~$230. Without going into excessive detail, if I use Cyclone, I need more expensive external CDR + SERDES. Stratix would allow me to use cheaper external CDR + SERDES due to it's higher I/O speeds. In order to decide which solution is ultimately most cost-effective, I need to have some feel for what the added cost of Xray inspection of the BGA part would be. Assume one component per board, board size = about 7" x 9" and 6 layers. I'm assuming that the cost is somewhat fixed, regardless of board quantity, as you have to do the same amount of work on each board -- quantity 1 or 1000. Thanks, PMac ###### From: "Peter C. Wallace" Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: BGA Xray inspection costs? Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:46:15 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Pan/0.11.4 (Unix) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Comment-To: "Patrick MacGregor" X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:29638 On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:16:56 -0700, Patrick MacGregor wrote: > Does anyone here have any guestimates or general rules-of-thumb used to > figure the cost of Xray inspection for a BGA part on a PCB? > > Here's the scenario: We are designing a board and can choose between > inexpensive Cyclone FPGAs in the 240-pin TQFP, or we could move to a > Stratix in the 672 BGA. The Cyclone in question costs under $30. The > Stratix costs ~$230. > > Without going into excessive detail, if I use Cyclone, I need more > expensive external CDR + SERDES. Stratix would allow me to use cheaper > external CDR + SERDES due to it's higher I/O speeds. > > In order to decide which solution is ultimately most cost-effective, I > need to have some feel for what the added cost of Xray inspection of the > BGA part would be. Assume one component per board, board size = about > 7" x 9" and 6 layers. > > I'm assuming that the cost is somewhat fixed, regardless of board > quantity, as you have to do the same amount of work on each board -- > quantity 1 or 1000. > > Thanks, > > PMac I dont think its much as it just seems to be folded into the SM assembly cost at least for the cards we do, certainly no more than a few dollars. If you had to do it separately it would be more... PCW ###### From: nweaver@ribbit.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Nicholas C. Weaver) Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: BGA Xray inspection costs? Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 04:15:30 +0000 (UTC) Organization: University of California, Berkeley, EECS Department Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ribbit.cs.berkeley.edu X-Trace: agate.berkeley.edu 1055823330 68820 128.32.112.203 (17 Jun 2003 04:15:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@agate.berkeley.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 04:15:30 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: nweaver@ribbit.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Nicholas C. Weaver) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!agate.berkeley.edu!agate!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:29620 In article , Peter C. Wallace wrote: >I dont think its much as it just seems to be folded into the SM assembly >cost at least for the cards we do, certainly no more than a few dollars. >If you had to do it separately it would be more... Also, given an FPGA on the board, much/all of the board functionality can be tested using the FPGA, which would include BGA short/gap detections etc. -- Nicholas C. Weaver nweaver@cs.berkeley.edu ###### From: rjd@transtech-dsp.com (rob d) Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: BGA Xray inspection costs? Date: 17 Jun 2003 00:09:46 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.205.232.226 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1055833786 24416 127.0.0.1 (17 Jun 2003 07:09:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 2003 07:09:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:29631 "Peter C. Wallace" wrote in message news:... > On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:16:56 -0700, Patrick MacGregor wrote: > > > Does anyone here have any guestimates or general rules-of-thumb used to > > figure the cost of Xray inspection for a BGA part on a PCB? > > > > Here's the scenario: We are designing a board and can choose between > > inexpensive Cyclone FPGAs in the 240-pin TQFP, or we could move to a > > Stratix in the 672 BGA. The Cyclone in question costs under $30. The > > Stratix costs ~$230. > > > > Without going into excessive detail, if I use Cyclone, I need more > > expensive external CDR + SERDES. Stratix would allow me to use cheaper > > external CDR + SERDES due to it's higher I/O speeds. > > > > In order to decide which solution is ultimately most cost-effective, I > > need to have some feel for what the added cost of Xray inspection of the > > BGA part would be. Assume one component per board, board size = about > > 7" x 9" and 6 layers. > > > > I'm assuming that the cost is somewhat fixed, regardless of board > > quantity, as you have to do the same amount of work on each board -- > > quantity 1 or 1000. > > > > Thanks, > > > > PMac BGA's really aren't the problem many people think it is. We are happily using a ERSA infra-red rework station to place xc2v8000 -5's (gues how many K dollars a piece) which are 1152 pin. We've placed about 25. Also placed about 75 xc2v3000/xc2v6000 also 1152, one or two which we re-balled in house. We haven't x-rayed yet, but we have a lot of experience with JTAG. Our main customer is one of the big telco's and they are happy that we haven't XRAYed. They are also happy that in production we don't XRAY, allthough that will be through a proper oven. If it's your first design with BGA then I'm not going to get you to not x-ray but I suggest that when you start thinking "why are we xraying" after getting your yields much higher than a pqfp you realize that many companies don't. Rob