From: Bob W Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 178 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.219.183 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1034127005 24.91.219.183 (Wed, 09 Oct 2002 01:30:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 01:30:05 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 01:30:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn12feed!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21810 On 8 Oct 2002 15:00:57 -0700, kevinbraceusenet@hotmail.com (Kevin Brace) wrote: >First of all, notice that I changed the title slightly. > > > While I agree that Quartus II's help system is better than >ISE's, Altera doesn't seem to have detailed manuals of their software >available for download unlike Xilinx. I failed to mention that I use Altera's MaxPlus software rathern than Quartus II. Sorry, I should have mentioned that in my original post > > >> The Xilinx toolset is a hodgepodge of command line tools with a lousy >> user interface on top of it. The tools don't talk to each other, the >> error handling is terrible and the help files are useless. An analogy >> comes to mind. I would compare the Altera software to a sports car and >> the Xilinx to a donkey. Both modes of transportation will get you >> where you want to go. The sports car has an enjoyable ride. The donkey >> gets you there eventually, but the ride stinks. >> > > > I use ISE's GUI flow rather than running tools from a batch >file, so what you are saying is not a issue to me at all. > I use ISE's GUI also. It really is more of a shell over a bunch of command lines tools rather than a real GUI. None of the tools can talk to each other. For example, in Maxplus when you get an error, you click on it and it takes you to the source file and shows you the location of the problem. ISE shows an error. If you click on that error, most of the time nothing happens. If it does show you something, it is usually in an intermediate file. For example, you have an error in the schematic and ISE shows you the VHDL file that it made from the schematic. It then points to a net with a Xilinx generated name. It is up to the user to hunt around in the schematic and find the problem. > > > I find Xilinx's error messages adequate for tracking down >problems. >I don't use Xilinx's schematic tool, so I don't really have any >comments about it. > I have gotten error messages from the Xilinx tools that even Xilinx tech support can't explain without putting me on hold while they ask around. > > > >> 6) Options have to be set within many different separate programs. To >> set some options you may have to click on the Synthesizer, than the >> Fitter, then the Program file generator. >> > > > I like the fact that ISE's built-in synthesis tool XST has far >more synthesis options supported than Altera's built-in synthesis tool >(Okay, I can also use LeonardoSpectrum-Altera, but when I tried to run >it through Quartus II's NativeLink feature, I was not able to set >synthesis options from Quartus II. If I wanted to tinker with >synthesis options, I had to run LS-Altera separately.). >Personally, I prefer that the options are broken up, and assigned to >different programs (NGDBUILD, MAP, PAR, etc.). > > > >> 7) Sometimes when you edit the pins assignments, save them in >> Chipview, and then try to recompile the design nothing happens. You >> have to remember that as long as Chipview is open, the Project >> Navigator will ignore you and not show any reason why. (Oh yeah, I >> have to close that program before it will respond). >> > > > I assign pin assignments through a UCF file, so what you >mentioned is not a issue. >Don't you also assign pin assignments through a CSF file in Quartus >II? > Chipview is just a quick and dirty editor that edits the UCF file. Even if you manually edit the UCF file by clicking on Edit UCF you end up with the same problem. > >> 9) I try to run the included ModelSim simulator. The ModelSim splash >> screen comes up but nothing happens. The program doesn't start. The >> Project Navigator shows no error. After much wasted time, I find that >> the license for the simulator is tied to the IP address of the >> computer it is used on. Since I was using a laptop, its IP address >> depends on where it is plugged in. So I need a license for each IP >> address my laptop uses. There was no error message (How about "Invalid >> License!") from Navigator or ModelSim. This is poor software >> integration. >> > > > I usually run ModelSim XE-Starter by itself, not through ISE. The same problem happens whether you start from the ISE or start it by itself. The splash screen starts up and the program terminates. Altera has its simulator integrated into the program. If there is an error (even a licensing issue, it tells you. You then click on the error and it takes you to the source of the problem. > > > >> There are just a few examples of the types of problems that users have >> to live with. The Xilinx software is certainly usable and I have done >> many designs with it. It just makes things much harder than they >> should be. As a consultant, I appreciate well written tools save me >> time and my clients money. The Xilinx tools are poorly written and >> integrated. It has been like this for years. The new release (5.1) is >> not much better. Maybe if you have the major market share like Xilinx >> does, you don't have to care about the developers. Many Xilinx users >> have never tried the Altera software and don't know what they are >> missing. >> > > > Here are my complaints of Quartus II. Again, I use Altera MaxPlus so I can't comment on Quartus's shortcomings. > >1) When running Quartus II on a Windows 98 PC, it drains System >Resources rapidly that, I often have hard times running it along with >another program (i.e., Internet browser). >When the System Resources drain gets so bad, I often have to exit >Quartus II, and restart it again, which is irritating. >This problem doesn't happen with ISE, and ISE keeps the System >Resources usage to a minimum (10% to 15% at the most.), so I don't >have to restart it so many times. >Sure, I can get Windows 2000 or XP, but I personally pay anymore OS >tax to Microsoft (I am sure switching to Windows 2000 or XP will >improve my productivity because the OS will crash less often . . . ). > I just ran ISE 5.1 to get a fit for a design. Because it could not route (even though I was only using about 55% of the resources), I set it to run in "Exhastive Fit" mode where it keeps trying to get a fit. After running for 2 hours and not finding a fit, it stopped because it had used all of Windows virtual memory. This is on a Windows 2K system with with 512 Mb of RAM. The program obviously has a memory leak where it eats memory on every fit attempt. > > >5) While Xilinx's floorplanner isn't perfect, it still works far >better than Altera's. In Altera floorplanner, I cannot easily see >whether or not a LUT or FF of a LE is utilized. In Xilinx's one, I can >see visually whether or not a FF or a LUT within a CLB is utilized. > Where is Xilinx's floorplanner for CPLD designs? The Altera tools work accross PLD's, CPLDs, FPGA's with the same consistant toolset. > > >8) Altera doesn't offer a low level tool like FPGA Editor in Quartus >II. Because of that, users cannot see how the fitter routed the chip. > MaxPlus has a floorplanner that shows routing. > > > >> The Altera tools have a consistent interface and were written to run >> in a Windows environment. They have an intuitive feel. The utilities >> are so well written that you never leave the main program to run > them. > > ###### From: thomas.kurth@gmx.de (Thomas Kurth) Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Date: 9 Oct 2002 01:28:21 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.27.113.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1034152102 18923 127.0.0.1 (9 Oct 2002 08:28:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Oct 2002 08:28:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21805 Heyho! I don't know the Altera tools, but I know Xilinx ISE and ispLEVER from Lattice. THAT is a bad tool! It stopped synthezising, because of an unresolvable multisource. And it said: "error xx: search in the web or ask the Lattice support". I took the source, copied it to ISE and synthezised it. Result: error with a hint on the multisource. I corrected my source and switched back to Lattice and guess what, it works... And that is an easy problem. On Version 2.0 you have the new updated download-tool ispVMSystem. The old version detected that the .jed has changed and asked which to use. The new one does not. It just uses the old one. There is no way to make it use the new one by clicking on a button like "update" or anything else... The only way is to browse to the file again and select it for downloading. That is not user-friendly. Greetz, Thomas ###### From: Petter Gustad Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Date: 09 Oct 2002 12:29:58 +0200 Organization: 502 You are not allowed to talk Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.0.185.86 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: oslo-nntp.eunet.no 1034159658 18071 195.0.185.86 (9 Oct 2002 10:34:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@KPNQwest.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Oct 2002 10:34:18 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uio.no!Norway.EU.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21799 kevinbraceusenet@hotmail.com (Kevin Brace) writes: > While I agree that Quartus II's help system is better than > ISE's, Altera doesn't seem to have detailed manuals of their software > available for download unlike Xilinx. I don't use the Quartus II GUI much other than for floorplanning and building megafunctions. I do most of my work with Tcl scripts. Hence, I wish they had the documentation available as PDF files. I would rather see improved functionality such as SMP and cluster support for large PAR jobs rather than a fancier GUI. One big plus: Quartus II runs under Linux in native mode! The Quartus II Linux edition GUI behaves rather odd (at least under fvwm2). It will always stay on top of all other windows. There is no way to raise other windows like xterms on top of Quartus. Even when minimized it punches through all other windows on the desktop. Have anybody else experienced this behavior? Petter -- ________________________________________________________________________ Petter Gustad 8'h2B | ~8'h2B http://www.gustad.com/petter ###### Message-ID: <3DA4254A.18C03785@iprimus.com.au> From: Russell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.50.118.152 Lines: 25 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Organization: iPrimus Customer - reports relating to abuse should be sent to abuse@iprimus.com.au Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 22:47:06 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.134.67.67 X-Complaints-To: news@primus.ca X-Trace: news.primus.ca 1034167294 203.134.67.67 (Wed, 09 Oct 2002 08:41:34 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 08:41:34 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!feed.cgocable.net!feed.tor.primus.ca!news.primus.ca!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21783 Petter Gustad wrote: > > kevinbraceusenet@hotmail.com (Kevin Brace) writes: > > > While I agree that Quartus II's help system is better than > > ISE's, Altera doesn't seem to have detailed manuals of their software > > available for download unlike Xilinx. > > I don't use the Quartus II GUI much other than for floorplanning and > building megafunctions. I do most of my work with Tcl scripts. Hence, > I wish they had the documentation available as PDF files. > > I would rather see improved functionality such as SMP and cluster > support for large PAR jobs rather than a fancier GUI. > > One big plus: Quartus II runs under Linux in native mode! > > The Quartus II Linux edition GUI behaves rather odd (at least under > fvwm2). It will always stay on top of all other windows. There is no > way to raise other windows like xterms on top of Quartus. Even when > minimized it punches through all other windows on the desktop. Have > anybody else experienced this behavior? I think there are various ways of overiding this involving X resources settings. ###### From: Petter Gustad Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Date: 09 Oct 2002 16:01:24 +0200 Organization: 502 You are not allowed to talk Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3DA4254A.18C03785@iprimus.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.0.185.86 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: oslo-nntp.eunet.no 1034172342 17676 195.0.185.86 (9 Oct 2002 14:05:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@KPNQwest.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Oct 2002 14:05:42 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!wanadoo.fr!opentransit.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!Norway.EU.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21801 Russell writes: > Petter Gustad wrote: [...snip...] > > One big plus: Quartus II runs under Linux in native mode! > > > > The Quartus II Linux edition GUI behaves rather odd (at least under > > fvwm2). It will always stay on top of all other windows. There is no > > way to raise other windows like xterms on top of Quartus. Even when > > minimized it punches through all other windows on the desktop. Have > > anybody else experienced this behavior? > > I think there are various ways of overiding this involving > X resources settings. Do you know where these are documented? Quartus appears to be built using some kind of Windows compatible library since I see a process called "mwrpcss" running while Quartus is running. If I could get documentation on the X11 resources for this library I might figure out how to make it a well behaved X11 application. This behavior is specific for Quartus. All other applications like signalscan, emacs, xterm, opera, netscape etc. does *not* behave in this odd way. Petter -- ________________________________________________________________________ Petter Gustad 8'h2B | ~8'h2B http://www.gustad.com/petter ###### Message-ID: <3DA44C27.47F8DE72@iprimus.com.au> From: Russell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? References: <3DA4254A.18C03785@iprimus.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.50.118.152 Lines: 32 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Organization: iPrimus Customer - reports relating to abuse should be sent to abuse@iprimus.com.au Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 01:32:55 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.134.67.67 X-Complaints-To: news@primus.ca X-Trace: news.primus.ca 1034177236 203.134.67.67 (Wed, 09 Oct 2002 11:27:16 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 11:27:16 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.inwind.it!inwind.it!teaser.fr!proxad.net!news.tiscali.fr!deine.net!feed.cgocable.net!feed.tor.primus.ca!news.primus.ca!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21786 Petter Gustad wrote: > > Russell writes: > > > Petter Gustad wrote: > [...snip...] > > > One big plus: Quartus II runs under Linux in native mode! > > > > > > The Quartus II Linux edition GUI behaves rather odd (at least under > > > fvwm2). It will always stay on top of all other windows. There is no > > > way to raise other windows like xterms on top of Quartus. Even when > > > minimized it punches through all other windows on the desktop. Have > > > anybody else experienced this behavior? > > > > I think there are various ways of overiding this involving > > X resources settings. > > Do you know where these are documented? Quartus appears to be built > using some kind of Windows compatible library since I see a process > called "mwrpcss" running while Quartus is running. If I could get > documentation on the X11 resources for this library I might figure out > how to make it a well behaved X11 application. > > This behavior is specific for Quartus. All other applications like > signalscan, emacs, xterm, opera, netscape etc. does *not* behave in > this odd way. I've been looking for a list of *all* xresource variables. I can't find a specific layering setting now, but your window manager may say something. You can set layering in fvwm. Various linux admin books have a section on setting xresources. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=xresources ###### Message-ID: <3DA45A67.87224B8C@iprimus.com.au> From: Russell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? References: <3DA4254A.18C03785@iprimus.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.50.118.152 Lines: 35 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Organization: iPrimus Customer - reports relating to abuse should be sent to abuse@iprimus.com.au Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 02:33:43 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.134.67.67 X-Complaints-To: news@primus.ca X-Trace: news.primus.ca 1034180886 203.134.67.67 (Wed, 09 Oct 2002 12:28:06 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 12:28:06 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-hub.siol.net!feed.cgocable.net!feed.tor.primus.ca!news.primus.ca!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21785 Petter Gustad wrote: > > Russell writes: > > > Petter Gustad wrote: > [...snip...] > > > One big plus: Quartus II runs under Linux in native mode! > > > > > > The Quartus II Linux edition GUI behaves rather odd (at least under > > > fvwm2). It will always stay on top of all other windows. There is no > > > way to raise other windows like xterms on top of Quartus. Even when > > > minimized it punches through all other windows on the desktop. Have > > > anybody else experienced this behavior? > > > > I think there are various ways of overiding this involving > > X resources settings. > > Do you know where these are documented? Quartus appears to be built > using some kind of Windows compatible library since I see a process > called "mwrpcss" running while Quartus is running. If I could get > documentation on the X11 resources for this library I might figure out > how to make it a well behaved X11 application. > > This behavior is specific for Quartus. All other applications like > signalscan, emacs, xterm, opera, netscape etc. does *not* behave in > this odd way. Look for something like a ~/.quartus2rc or /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/quartus2 file. I think the xresource parameters are defined case-by-case by applications. http://www.student.math.uwaterloo.ca/~mtrudel/xtutorial.html http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/docs/HOWTO/other-formats/html_single/XWindow-User-HOWTO.html#XRESOURCES ###### From: "ds" Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga References: Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.130.173 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com 1034213327 ST000 209.245.130.173 (Wed, 09 Oct 2002 21:28:47 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 21:28:47 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: TSU[@I_A\S@[RVX[ZJKBN[MD\CQDRRDKFA]T]_QHEQR@UWUC_FUC@E_[BT\\YQKIPVBMJBVMSNXTOLGBUFTI^\XGJVTAHUPH[XYPB\_BMDS@A@@\@KC@IPWCT\EKZHBLJTY_JAFMXY^WGG[RHL^U^AK_BK[BWUKH@A_AQFOAGCAVA]\F[\APMQPF_FWEA\JN Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 01:28:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr17.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!5c9685e5!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21858 Have you seen this problem with Gnome or KDE that ships with Red Hat 7.1? Another possibility would be is to set the following environment variable MWWM with a value allwm to see if it makes a difference. - DS "Petter Gustad" wrote in message news:m3elazvra1.fsf@scimul.dolphinics.no... > kevinbraceusenet@hotmail.com (Kevin Brace) writes: > One big plus: Quartus II runs under Linux in native mode! > > > The Quartus II Linux edition GUI behaves rather odd (at least under > fvwm2). It will always stay on top of all other windows. There is no > way to raise other windows like xterms on top of Quartus. Even when > minimized it punches through all other windows on the desktop. Have > anybody else experienced this behavior? > > Petter > -- > ________________________________________________________________________ > Petter Gustad 8'h2B | ~8'h2B http://www.gustad.com/petter ###### Message-ID: <3DA4DF75.A824EB55@iprimus.com.au> From: Russell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? References: <3DA4254A.18C03785@iprimus.com.au> <3DA45A67.87224B8C@iprimus.com.au> <87vg4bbb0y.fsf@filestore.home.gustad.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.50.10.117 Lines: 10 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Organization: iPrimus Customer - reports relating to abuse should be sent to abuse@iprimus.com.au Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:01:25 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.134.67.67 X-Complaints-To: news@primus.ca X-Trace: news.primus.ca 1034214942 203.134.67.67 (Wed, 09 Oct 2002 21:55:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 21:55:42 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!feed.cgocable.net!feed.tor.primus.ca!news.primus.ca!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21833 Petter Gustad wrote: > > Russell writes: > > > Look for something like a ~/.quartus2rc or > > /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/quartus2 file. > > There is no such thing... Haven't used it, so i guessed. ###### Message-ID: <3DA510E4.9DABAC22@iprimus.com.au> From: Russell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? References: <3DA4254A.18C03785@iprimus.com.au> <3DA45A67.87224B8C@iprimus.com.au> <87vg4bbb0y.fsf@filestore.home.gustad.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.50.10.117 Lines: 17 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Organization: iPrimus Customer - reports relating to abuse should be sent to abuse@iprimus.com.au Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:32:20 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.134.67.67 X-Complaints-To: news@primus.ca X-Trace: news.primus.ca 1034227599 203.134.67.67 (Thu, 10 Oct 2002 01:26:39 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 01:26:39 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!24.226.1.12!feed.cgocable.net!feed.tor.primus.ca!news.primus.ca!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21832 Petter Gustad wrote: > > Russell writes: > > > Look for something like a ~/.quartus2rc or > > /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/quartus2 file. > > There is no such thing. Quartus installs itself in a separate > directory tree and does not install anything under X11 or in your home > directory. > > Everything related to the Quartus windows layer appears to be located > in the directory called mw. Quartus does not seem to behave like a > typical X11 application in this sense. There's also a: /etc/X11/app-defaults/ area on debian. ###### From: Petter Gustad Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Organization: 502 You are not allowed to talk Lines: 19 Sender: petter@filestore.home.gustad.com Message-ID: <87wuoqx38d.fsf@filestore.home.gustad.com> References: <3DA4254A.18C03785@iprimus.com.au> <3DA45A67.87224B8C@iprimus.com.au> <87vg4bbb0y.fsf@filestore.home.gustad.com> <3DA4DF75.A824EB55@iprimus.com.au> X-Home-Page: http://gustad.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.212.40.34 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@nextra.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:00:08 MEST X-Trace: news2.ulv.nextra.no 1034229608 80.212.40.34 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:00:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!213.73.101.75.MISMATCH!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!193.213.112.26!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news2.ulv.nextra.no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21857 Russell writes: > Petter Gustad wrote: > > > > Russell writes: > > > > > Look for something like a ~/.quartus2rc or > > > /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/quartus2 file. > > > > There is no such thing... > > Haven't used it, so i guessed. I see. Thank you for trying to help anyway. Petter -- ________________________________________________________________________ Petter Gustad 8'h2B | ~8'h2B http://www.gustad.com/petter ###### From: Petter Gustad Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Date: 10 Oct 2002 09:57:17 +0200 Organization: 502 You are not allowed to talk Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3DA4254A.18C03785@iprimus.com.au> <3DA45A67.87224B8C@iprimus.com.au> <87vg4bbb0y.fsf@filestore.home.gustad.com> <3DA510E4.9DABAC22@iprimus.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.0.185.86 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: oslo-nntp.eunet.no 1034236897 26411 195.0.185.86 (10 Oct 2002 08:01:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@KPNQwest.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2002 08:01:37 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!Norway.EU.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21851 Russell writes: > Petter Gustad wrote: > > > > Russell writes: > > > > > Look for something like a ~/.quartus2rc or > > > /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/quartus2 file. > > > > There is no such thing. Quartus installs itself in a separate > > directory tree and does not install anything under X11 or in your home > > directory. > > > > Everything related to the Quartus windows layer appears to be located > > in the directory called mw. Quartus does not seem to behave like a > > typical X11 application in this sense. > > There's also a: > /etc/X11/app-defaults/ area on debian. Your guesses are good and would be very reasonable if Quartus was a typical X11 application. However, Quartus is more of a Windows application in this sense... Petter -- ________________________________________________________________________ Petter Gustad 8'h2B | ~8'h2B http://www.gustad.com/petter ###### From: Petter Gustad Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Date: 10 Oct 2002 10:07:46 +0200 Organization: 502 You are not allowed to talk Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.0.185.86 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: oslo-nntp.eunet.no 1034237526 28017 195.0.185.86 (10 Oct 2002 08:12:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@KPNQwest.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2002 08:12:06 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!Norway.EU.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21850 "ds" writes: > Have you seen this problem with Gnome or KDE that ships with Red Hat 7.1? I haven't tried yet. I have quite a bit of context stored on my desktop (the downside of using an OS which never crashes) so I don't want to restart my window manager at the moment. I'll try later. > Another possibility would be is to set the following environment variable > > MWWM with a value allwm > > to see if it makes a difference. Unfortunately it didn't: scimul:jtag $echo $MWWM allwm scimul:jtag $/net/sciraid2/raid2/home/local-linux-x86/bin/quartus& The behavior was the same. I'll check some other window managers later. I would assume that the one that Altera used for Qualification will behave better. I like fvwm2 because it's fast and easy to configure to select windows using the keyboard only. Petter -- ________________________________________________________________________ Petter Gustad 8'h2B | ~8'h2B http://www.gustad.com/petter ###### From: Colin Marquardt Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:22:33 +0200 Organization: I'd rather call it chaos ... Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3DA4254A.18C03785@iprimus.com.au> <3DA44C27.47F8DE72@iprimus.com.au> <87y997bbc1.fsf@filestore.home.gustad.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.alcatel.de (194.113.59.80) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1034252553 20043638 194.113.59.80 (16 [131051]) Keywords: quartus X-Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel. User-Agent: Gnus/5.090007 (Oort Gnus v0.07) Emacs/21.2 (sparc-sun-solaris2.8) Cancel-Lock: sha1:wtT33V897apctOHprFRij1f+6HY= Cache-Post-Path: news.alcatel.de!unknown@slse6w.stgl.sel.alcatel.de X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!gate.alcatel.DE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21831 Petter Gustad writes: > I know how to set X11 resources using xrdb. The problem is to know > which resources are read by Quartus (if any). I don't think it's a > problem with settings in fvwm2 since no application behaves this way > other than Quartus (unless there is an option used by Quartus only). You could try 'editres', but I doubt Quartus will respond with useful info. Another way might be to trace system calls with 'strace'. My guess is that it sets an X property like "override redirect" on the main window which would make it stay on top like you describe (but "override redirect" would also bring it out of reach of the window manager AIUI). If you don't get an answer form Altera, I'd try asking on comp.windows.x. HTH, Colin ###### From: Petter Gustad Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Date: 10 Oct 2002 14:59:36 +0200 Organization: 502 You are not allowed to talk Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3DA4254A.18C03785@iprimus.com.au> <3DA44C27.47F8DE72@iprimus.com.au> <87y997bbc1.fsf@filestore.home.gustad.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.0.185.86 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: oslo-nntp.eunet.no 1034255034 8356 195.0.185.86 (10 Oct 2002 13:03:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@KPNQwest.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2002 13:03:54 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uio.no!Norway.EU.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21855 Colin Marquardt writes: > Petter Gustad writes: > > > I know how to set X11 resources using xrdb. The problem is to know > > which resources are read by Quartus (if any). I don't think it's a > > problem with settings in fvwm2 since no application behaves this way > > other than Quartus (unless there is an option used by Quartus only). > > You could try 'editres', but I doubt Quartus will respond with useful > info. Another way might be to trace system calls with 'strace'. No, editres respond with: It appears that the client does not understand the editres protocol. strace is a little difficult since Quartus is forking out several processes (typically 17 of them). Of course I could attach each of them to strace with the -p option, but it's a lot of work... > My guess is that it sets an X property like "override redirect" on > the main window which would make it stay on top like you describe > (but "override redirect" would also bring it out of reach of the > window manager AIUI). If you don't get an answer form Altera, I'd > try asking on comp.windows.x. Good suggestion. I'll try some other window manager first to see if I can get any clues from that first. Petter -- ________________________________________________________________________ Petter Gustad 8'h2B | ~8'h2B http://www.gustad.com/petter ###### From: Kevin Brace Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:35:27 -0500 Organization: None Lines: 135 Sender: kevinbraceusenet@hotmail.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 0-1pool11-173.nas5.oakbrook1.il.us.da.qwest.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: newsreader.mailgate.org 1034303424 18045 63.155.11.173 (11 Oct 2002 02:30:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@mailgate.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:30:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsreader.mailgate.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21907 Bob W wrote: > > > I failed to mention that I use Altera's MaxPlus software rathern than > Quartus II. Sorry, I should have mentioned that in my original post About a year and a half ago, when I started to developing a PCI IP core, I needed some kind of a development tool. Because Altera and Xilinx were letting people use MAX+PLUS II-BASELINE and WebPACK ISE respectively for free, I tried both of them. I decided to use WebPACK ISE because I simply hated MAX+PLUS-II's outdated looking GUI, and Altera's offering didn't come with a free HDL-based simulator (Xilinx did let me use ModelSim XE-Starter for free.). In retrospect, that was a good decision because I found a company (Insight Electronics) that sold a low cost PCI prototype board for only $145, whereas Altera FLEX10KE PCI prototype from Altera cost $2,000 . . . > I use ISE's GUI also. It really is more of a shell over a bunch of > command lines tools rather than a real GUI. None of the tools can talk > to each other. For example, in Maxplus when you get an error, you > click on it and it takes you to the source file and shows you the > location of the problem. ISE shows an error. If you click on that > error, most of the time nothing happens. If it does show you > something, it is usually in an intermediate file. For example, you > have an error in the schematic and ISE shows you the VHDL file that it > made from the schematic. It then points to a net with a Xilinx > generated name. It is up to the user to hunt around in the schematic > and find the problem. I am fine with the way ISE reports errors, and I personally don't mind looking around for them. I personally really hate MAX+PLUS II because the GUI looks so outdated. > Chipview is just a quick and dirty editor that edits the UCF file. > Even if you manually edit the UCF file by clicking on Edit UCF you end > up with the same problem. > I don't deal with CPLDs, so I don't personally know much about Chipview, but nonetheless I put all the pin information within a .UCF file, and I don't have any problems with that. > The same problem happens whether you start from the ISE or start it by > itself. The splash screen starts up and the program terminates. Altera > has its simulator integrated into the program. If there is an error > (even a licensing issue, it tells you. You then click on the error and > it takes you to the source of the problem. One of the reason I turned down using MAX+PLUS II-BASELINE was because I did not want to do simulation with a waveform simulator because it takes so much time entering the stimulus. Perhaps your project wasn't too big that you can get way without using an HDL-based simulator. > Again, I use Altera MaxPlus so I can't comment on Quartus's > shortcomings. Fine, but I must say MAX+PLUS II is far worst than Quartus II when it comes to the usefulness of their floorplanner and timing analyzer. Also, Quartus II doesn't crash as often as MAX+PLUS II (The Quartus II fitter is a lot more stable than MAX+PLUS II's fitter.). > I just ran ISE 5.1 to get a fit for a design. Because it could not > route (even though I was only using about 55% of the resources), I set > it to run in "Exhastive Fit" mode where it keeps trying to get a fit. > After running for 2 hours and not finding a fit, it stopped because > it had used all of Windows virtual memory. This is on a Windows 2K > system with with 512 Mb of RAM. The program obviously has a memory > leak where it eats memory on every fit attempt. > I don't deal with CPLDs, so I cannot really comment on your problem, but the virtual memory leak sounds like the tool's bug to me. You may want to try ISE WebPACK 4.1 or 4.2 instead. > Where is Xilinx's floorplanner for CPLD designs? The Altera tools work > accross PLD's, CPLDs, FPGA's with the same consistant toolset. I believe ISE's floorplanner is for their FPGAs only. > MaxPlus has a floorplanner that shows routing. Really? I will guess that when you say MAX+PLUS II has a floorplanner that shows chip's routing, you probably mean that the floorplanner shows the simplified version of the connection between a LUT and a LUT or between a PLA and a PLA. Xilinx's FPGA Editor lets you see which routing line connects to which pass transistor, and I don't believe Altera even offers such a low level tool. However, I am a poor ISE WebPACK user, so I cannot use FPGA Editor (It's for paid versions only.). Regardless, Altera's floorplanner is far inferior than Xilinx because it doesn't show whether or not a LUT or a FF is actually being used graphically (Yes, the Altera's floorplanner shows the LUT equation which is nice, but that's not enough to overcome its shortcomings.), and the fitter often duplicates the LUT the user hand placed automatically. As far as I know, there is no way to disable the automatic duplication of LUTs. Kevin Brace (In general, don't respond to me directly, and respond within the newsgroup.) ###### From: Petter Gustad Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Date: 11 Oct 2002 13:55:07 +0200 Organization: 502 You are not allowed to talk Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3DA4254A.18C03785@iprimus.com.au> <3DA44C27.47F8DE72@iprimus.com.au> <87y997bbc1.fsf@filestore.home.gustad.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.0.185.86 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: oslo-nntp.eunet.no 1034337567 6007 195.0.185.86 (11 Oct 2002 11:59:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@KPNQwest.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2002 11:59:27 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!Norway.EU.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21908 Petter Gustad writes: > Colin Marquardt writes: [..snip..] > > My guess is that it sets an X property like "override redirect" on > > the main window which would make it stay on top like you describe > > (but "override redirect" would also bring it out of reach of the > > window manager AIUI). If you don't get an answer form Altera, I'd > > try asking on comp.windows.x. > > Good suggestion. I'll try some other window manager first to see if I > can get any clues from that first. I tried the Motif window manager (mwm) and it does *not* result in the odd behavior as in fvwm2. So this appears to be a problem related to the Quartus/fvwm2 combination. I'll see if I can find some fvwm2 related mailing list or something... Petter -- ________________________________________________________________________ Petter Gustad 8'h2B | ~8'h2B http://www.gustad.com/petter ###### From: "Ben Twijnstra" Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga References: Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Lines: 48 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:59:22 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.187.27.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.com X-Trace: amstwist00 1034373136 212.187.27.229 (Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:52:16 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:52:16 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21874 Hi Petter, > The Quartus II Linux edition GUI behaves rather odd (at least under > fvwm2). It will always stay on top of all other windows. There is no > way to raise other windows like xterms on top of Quartus. Even when > minimized it punches through all other windows on the desktop. Have > anybody else experienced this behavior? Quartus does the same thing under KWM and a bunch of others; you're not alone. There's a workaround though. The Quartus GUI was compiled using a Windows portability layer called MainWin. MainWin's startup code will try to autodetect the window manager. There is a limited number of window managers that MainWin can detect with 100% accuracy. If it detects one of those it will be meek as a lamb and comply with the current WM's instructions. If not, MainWin will try to do its own window handling, causing focus messages to be discarded etc. However, MainWin has an environment variable called MWWM that can be used indicate which WM is being used. There's a whole bunch of WMs supported, but to be concise, if you set this environment variable to ALLWM, the MainWin window handler should always comply with the current window manager, even though it has to make a few assumptions due to border size estimates etc (see http://www.mainsoft.com/kb_mainwin/kbmw0034.html). However, in the $QUARTUS/adm/qenv.csh file that is invoked by the $QUARTUS/bin/quartus script, this variable is always removed from the environment. Thus, what I suggest to get rid of your problem is to change the line in $QUARTUS/adm/qenv.csh that says unsetenv MWWM to say setenv MWWM ALLWM with me this works fine under RedHat 7.3. However, this will probably void your warranty ;-) Best regards, Ben ###### From: Petter Gustad Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: Why can't Altera sw be as good as Xilinx's sw? Organization: 502 You are not allowed to talk Lines: 25 Sender: petter@filestore.home.gustad.com Message-ID: <87y9932tft.fsf@filestore.home.gustad.com> References: X-Home-Page: http://gustad.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.212.40.34 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@nextra.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 01:00:06 MEST X-Trace: news2.ulv.nextra.no 1034463606 80.212.40.34 Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:00:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.stupi.se!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news2.ulv.nextra.no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:21959 "Ben Twijnstra" writes: > However, in the $QUARTUS/adm/qenv.csh file that is invoked by the > $QUARTUS/bin/quartus script, this variable is always removed from the > environment. > > Thus, what I suggest to get rid of your problem is to change the line in > $QUARTUS/adm/qenv.csh that says > > unsetenv MWWM > > to say > > setenv MWWM ALLWM Thank you Ben, that did it! Actually somebody (DS) suggested to set MWWM til ALLWM, but if Quartus will start a csh and unset it won't help much to set it in my parent bash shell. Petter -- ________________________________________________________________________ Petter Gustad 8'h2B | ~8'h2B http://www.gustad.com/petter