From: shengyu_shen@hotmail.com (ssy) Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: too hot fpga device Date: 24 Jun 2002 18:30:19 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 61.187.56.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1024968619 25344 127.0.0.1 (25 Jun 2002 01:30:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jun 2002 01:30:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:18794 Hi everyone i am using an APEX20k400e, and my design use lots of ESB memory in it, the design function correctly when power up, but if I run for a very long time(about 5 min), it will behavir in an error way, if I reset, the design still in error if I power down and then up immediatly, the design still in error, I think it is because the device is too hot, I touch the device with my finger, it is very very very hot, so if any one have any sugession? ###### Message-ID: <3D17EB4E.D7093D2F@earthlink.net> From: Peter Alfke Reply-To: palfke@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: too hot fpga device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 04:02:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.179.198.233 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1024977743 209.179.198.233 (Mon, 24 Jun 2002 21:02:23 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 21:02:23 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!3ab61c21!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:18779 Your fingertip is a pretty good thermometer: If you can maintain contact, the package is below 60 or 65 degree C. If you pull away fast, it is above 70 degrees If it sizzles, it is above 100 degrees. Usually, the junction-to-case thermal resistance is fairly low, so the case temperture is just a little lower than the junction temperature (unless you have a big heatsink). If you can keep your fingertip on the packcage, its junction is most likely below the worst-case temperature, and the circuitry should work. Peter Alfke, FPGA Applications ============================= ssy wrote: > Hi everyone > > i am using an APEX20k400e, and my design use lots of ESB memory in it, > > the design function correctly when power up, but if I run for a very > long time(about 5 min), it will behavir in an error way, > > if I reset, the design still in error > > if I power down and then up immediatly, the design still in error, > > I think it is because the device is too hot, I touch the device with > my finger, it is very very very hot, > > so if any one have any sugession? ###### From: "Bevan Weiss" Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga References: Subject: Re: too hot fpga device Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Organization: Orcon Internet Message-ID: <1024979873.765660@aknx2.orcon.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: aknx2.orcon.net.nz!unknown@port54-31-57.adsl.net4u.co.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: e0.aknx2.orcon.net.nz X-Original-Trace: 25 Jun 2002 17:26:58 +1200, e0.aknx2.orcon.net.nz Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 17:27:26 +1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.48.22.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1024982819 210.48.22.5 (Tue, 25 Jun 2002 17:26:59 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 17:26:59 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news02.tsnz.net!news.nz.asiaonline.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:18782 Check the temperature with a probe, or an infra-red temperature sensor. If it's too hot, then install a heatsink on the chip... Test again, if it's still too hot then maybe it needs a fan as well... You may also want to check to make sure that you're only sinking/sourcing the recommended current through the I/O pins, this could very quickly heat up a chip. Also making sure that you are supplying it with the correct voltage, that it's not slightly too high, which again would cause elevated current levels. "ssy" wrote in message news:f4a5f64f.0206241730.5b32e814@posting.google.com... > Hi everyone > > i am using an APEX20k400e, and my design use lots of ESB memory in it, > > the design function correctly when power up, but if I run for a very > long time(about 5 min), it will behavir in an error way, > > if I reset, the design still in error > > if I power down and then up immediatly, the design still in error, > > I think it is because the device is too hot, I touch the device with > my finger, it is very very very hot, > > so if any one have any sugession? ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: too hot fpga device Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:11:00 -0700 Organization: http://www.jkmicro.com Lines: 9 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: <3D180974.6207FBA4@jkmicro.com> References: <3D17EB4E.D7093D2F@earthlink.net> Reply-To: jstewart@jkmicro.com Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Jun 25 01:11:03 2002 NNTP-Posting-Host: !Wi`T1k-X9UEjY$&7g-9(LqM^ (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!144.212.100.101!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!news-proxy.baileynm.com!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:18837 Peter Alfke wrote: > > Your fingertip is a pretty good thermometer: > If you can maintain contact, the package is below 60 or 65 degree C. > If you pull away fast, it is above 70 degrees > If it sizzles, it is above 100 degrees. And if you can read the part number off your finger with a mirror, it's latched up. ###### Message-ID: <3D191565.7460942@andraka.com> From: Ray Andraka Organization: Andraka Consulting Group, Inc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: too hot fpga device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 01:12:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.15.41.165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.east.cox.net 1025053929 68.15.41.165 (Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:12:09 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:12:09 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p02!news1.east.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:18807 Not necessarily. It is quite possible in current FPGAs to put a design in there that will dissipate over 20W. We've got one board on the bench here with a pair of V2000e's on it that are dissipating about 14W each. It is internally clocking at 160 MHz, and uses about 90% of the flip-flops and LUTs (check that in the power estimator spreadsheet) We're working on another design using a 2V6000 that preliminary power estimates are putting at well over 20W. I have soldering irons in the lab that dissipate less power than these designs do. Needless to say, the designs won't run very long without heatsinks and a healthy airflow. And yes, they will leave the part number on your finger if you tough them when running without a heatsink, they also turn boards brown that way. With a socket-7 type fan cooler glued to the top of each, they run quite happily. sunny wrote: > if the device gets that hot something is wrong. -- --Ray Andraka, P.E. President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc. 401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950 email ray@andraka.com http://www.andraka.com "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, 1759 ###### From: shengyu_shen@hotmail.com (ssy) Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: too hot fpga device Date: 25 Jun 2002 18:30:52 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 61.187.56.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1025055052 12958 127.0.0.1 (26 Jun 2002 01:30:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jun 2002 01:30:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:18883 Hi the quartus II tell me that is the design can run at 22.04 Mhz and I use an 20Mhz clock if this timing will change while the device getting too hot? about the cause of the hot, I think it is because I use alot of ESB in APEX to construct 8KB cache for my design(a microprocessor-- nnarm) ae <> wrote in message news:... > On another note: even if your device is not operating at an abnormal temperature, it *is* possible that for a tightly timed design you could actually have a problem at 'normal' temperatures. If you find that the heat dissipation you are creating is not a problem then you might want to check to see if you are close in timing... if so, try nudgind down the close constraints a little, by a couple nanoseconds maybe. ###### Message-ID: <3D1926EA.7DBFE792@earthlink.net> From: Peter Alfke Reply-To: palfke@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: too hot fpga device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 02:29:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.179.194.172 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1025058540 209.179.194.172 (Tue, 25 Jun 2002 19:29:00 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 19:29:00 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!3ab61c21!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:18840 I can obviously not sepak for Altera, but I cannot imagine that any modern FPGA will have high power consumption when driven by a 20 MHz clock. That's something we did ten years ago,at 5 V, and no thought of a heatsink. You have never quantified what you mean by "hot". Remember, I gave you the fingertip thermometer... :-) Peter Alfke, Xilinx Applicatins ================== ssy wrote: > Hi > > the quartus II tell me that is the design can run at 22.04 Mhz and I > use an 20Mhz clock > if this timing will change while the device getting too hot? > > about the cause of the hot, I think it is because I use alot of ESB in > APEX to construct 8KB cache for my design(a microprocessor-- nnarm) > > ae <> wrote in message news:... > > On another note: even if your device is not operating at an abnormal > temperature, it *is* possible that for a tightly timed design you > could actually have a problem at 'normal' temperatures. If you find > that the heat dissipation you are creating is not a problem then you > might want to check to see if you are close in timing... if so, try > nudgind down the close constraints a little, by a couple nanoseconds > maybe. ###### From: kayrock66@yahoo.com (Jay) Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: too hot fpga device Date: 25 Jun 2002 22:18:15 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.42.27.42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1025068696 20708 127.0.0.1 (26 Jun 2002 05:18:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jun 2002 05:18:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:18889 I'm going with the guy thats saying something is wrong. Check I/O's to make sure that you aren't shorting and unused I/O or something like that. What is the frequency of your clock? Are you operating your design at or below the reported speed from Quartus? shengyu_shen@hotmail.com (ssy) wrote in message news:... > Hi everyone > > i am using an APEX20k400e, and my design use lots of ESB memory in it, > > the design function correctly when power up, but if I run for a very > long time(about 5 min), it will behavir in an error way, > > if I reset, the design still in error > > if I power down and then up immediatly, the design still in error, > > I think it is because the device is too hot, I touch the device with > my finger, it is very very very hot, > > so if any one have any sugession? ###### From: "Ben Twijnstra" Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga References: Subject: Re: too hot fpga device Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:32:26 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.187.27.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.com X-Trace: amstwist00 1025206221 212.187.27.229 (Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:30:21 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:30:21 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!newshub1.nl.home.com!news.nl.home.com!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:18834 > I think it is because the device is too hot, I touch the device with > my finger, it is very very very hot, > > so if any one have any sugession? It may be that you have set the unused output pins to "driving ground". You can find this out by opening the "Processing" menu and selecting the "Compiler settings" item. On the dialog that shows up, select the "Chips&Devices" tab, and on that screen, click the "Device & pin options" button. On the dialog that pops up there, select the "Unused pins" tab. There you can see whether they are set to drive ground. To see whether this is a problem, select "as input, tri-stated", recompile, and try it again. Who said the Quartus user interface was simple ;-) If the devices is still so hot at 20MHz, you may also want to look at the JTAG pins. Under some circumstances, if they are left floating, especially the TMS and TCK pin, EMI causes these lines to float and generate a lot of heat. Best regards, Ben Twijnstra