From: Philip Freidin Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: In the news Organization: Fliptronics Reply-To: philip@fliptronics.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:58:22 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.103.85.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: news.pacbell.net 974520001 216.103.85.188 (Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:00:01 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:00:01 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feeder.via.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!206.13.28.33!news.pacbell.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2760 While I could make quite a few comments on this, I think I will just give you the link: http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/xilinxwin.htm Philip Philip Freidin Fliptronics ###### Message-ID: <3A1579FC.C45740FA@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:33:32 +0000 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.46 X-Trace: 17 Nov 2000 21:13:48 -0700, 207.153.6.46 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.46 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2709 Philip Freidin wrote: > > While I could make quite a few comments on this, > I think I will just give you the link: > > http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/xilinxwin.htm > Shades of M$. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### From: John Larkin Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news Message-ID: <7QoWOl71+OLpSV+CNuE3ciaofVFW@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:52:30 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.182.55.6 X-Complaints-To: news@rmi.net X-Trace: den-news1.rmi.net 974523041 204.182.55.6 (Fri, 17 Nov 2000 21:50:41 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 21:50:41 MST Organization: RMI.NET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!nntp-cust.primenet.com!natasha.rmii.com!den-news1.rmi.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2739 On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:58:22 -0800, Philip Freidin wrote: > >While I could make quite a few comments on this, >I think I will just give you the link: > > > http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/xilinxwin.htm > >Philip > >Philip Freidin >Fliptronics Tpd = 7 years? John ###### From: Magnus Homann Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news Date: 18 Nov 2000 11:34:28 +0100 Organization: Chalmers univ. of Technology Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mis.dtek.chalmers.se X-Trace: nyheter.chalmers.se 974543668 22037 129.16.30.55 (18 Nov 2000 10:34:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@chalmers.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Nov 2000 10:34:28 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!newsfeed1.online.no!nextra.com!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2749 Philip Freidin writes: > While I could make quite a few comments on this, > I think I will just give you the link: > > > http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/xilinxwin.htm I'm sure this is all in the society's best interest. After all, that's what patents are for. Homann -- Magnus Homann, M.Sc. CS & E d0asta@dtek.chalmers.se ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news Date: 20 Nov 2000 00:49:19 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 62 Message-ID: <6u4s13cykg.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 974677759 1416 10.0.3.2 (19 Nov 2000 23:49:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 2000 23:49:19 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2770 Magnus Homann writes: > Philip Freidin writes: > > > While I could make quite a few comments on this, > > I think I will just give you the link: > > > > > > http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/xilinxwin.htm Anyone know what features the 2 patents mentioned in the text forbid Altera (and anyone else) from including in their devices? Who else is endangered for being sued off of the market (I assume that Xilinx took on Altera as largest competitor in 1993)? Filing date 1993 suggests something that appeared in XC4000. Dammit, after over 2 months of investigating the various chips, I was just thinking of using Xilinx chips (the do seem to be the best). Now I am going to have to rethink that (I belong to the dying breed of people who think that societies wellfare should stand above maximal individual profit). Eith FLEX (and "its derivative programmable logic devices" = ACEX and APEX?) illegal, what remains? (P.S. does anyone have a statemewnt from Altera, what they are intending of doing?). MAX has not got enough FFs for me, one design I intend needs an 16x36bit register file). Altera has no CPLDs (real product term based devices) with block RAMs). Atmel 40K simply tops out too soon (I may possibly need 100k gates) and Atmel explicitely boasts about its patents on the first page of their data sheets. Actel are anti-fuse, I need SRAM for experimenting. Lucent Orca FPGAs, are they infringing? Tools running on Linux (just after I found some for Virtex). Cypress Delta39K CPLDs, anyone knows what they are like? Tools? > I'm sure this is all in the society's best interest. After all, that's > what patents are for. You can bet your soul on that :-). Hell and Eternal Damnation for all patent lawmakers and lawyers. (Now why can't we get black magic or Voodoo to work? :-)) I suppose this has once again demonstrated that patent law has got to be abolished. Completely. No replacement. The belief it was founded on (patents are better (or less bad) than trade secrets) simply is false. Trade secrets can be reverse engineered, patents are anti-competitive devices that can not be legally circumvented. P.S. Have you signed the "no software patents in Europe" petition? http://petition.eurolinux.org/ -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: "Dines Justesen" Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:24:12 +0100 Organization: Tele Danmark Internet Cyberspace Launchpad Lines: 12 Message-ID: <8van4k$t66$1@news.inet.tele.dk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: i3.rescom.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.inet.tele.dk 974708692 29894 193.89.31.106 X-Complaints-To: Department of Written Abuse X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!Tele.Dk.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2789 > While I could make quite a few comments on this, > I think I will just give you the link: > > > http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/xilinxwin.htm Alteras response is here: http://www.altera.com/html/new/pressrel/pr_litigation1.html Dines ###### From: kolja@prowokulta.org Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:47:13 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <8vavfg$17l$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8van4k$t66$1@news.inet.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.2.84.221 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Nov 20 10:47:13 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.74 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.3.99-pre1 i686) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x60.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 141.2.84.221 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsulimma Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2782 http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=USRE034363__ http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US04642487__ The second patent by William S. Carter contains claims for configurable logic arrays in general and therefore could be attacked with publications in the field of cellular automata from the sixties and seventies. (von Neuman, Schaffner, Minnik, ...) The claims are for a logic array that contains a general interconnect structure as well as a special interconnect structure. Most work from the sixties will have only one or the other, but one might be able to find some weird publication that proposes to use both. The other patent is not as vulnerable to this attack, because it restricts itself to integrated circuits. Although one could try to attack on the basis that the restriction to integrated circuits is not relevant to the invention. I hope that Altera succeeds in attacking these patents. In article <8van4k$t66$1@news.inet.tele.dk>, "Dines Justesen" wrote: > > While I could make quite a few comments on this, > > I think I will just give you the link: > > > > > > http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/xilinxwin.htm > > Alteras response is here: > > http://www.altera.com/html/new/pressrel/pr_litigation1.html > > Dines > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: kolja@prowokulta.org Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:48:07 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <8vavh6$17s$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8van4k$t66$1@news.inet.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.2.84.221 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Nov 20 10:48:07 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.74 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.3.99-pre1 i686) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x60.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 141.2.84.221 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsulimma Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2781 http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=USRE034363__ http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US04642487__ The second patent by William S. Carter contains claims for configurable logic arrays in general and therefore could be attacked with publications in the field of cellular automata from the sixties and seventies. (von Neuman, Schaffner, Minnik, ...) The claims are for a logic array that contains a general interconnect structure as well as a special interconnect structure. Most work from the sixties will have only one or the other, but one might be able to find some weird publication that proposes to use both. The other patent is not as vulnerable to this attack, because it restricts itself to integrated circuits. Although one could try to attack on the basis that the restriction to integrated circuits is not relevant to the invention. I hope that Altera succeeds in attacking these patents. In article <8van4k$t66$1@news.inet.tele.dk>, "Dines Justesen" wrote: > > While I could make quite a few comments on this, > > I think I will just give you the link: > > > > > > http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/xilinxwin.htm > > Alteras response is here: > > http://www.altera.com/html/new/pressrel/pr_litigation1.html > > Dines > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Jamie Lokier Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news Date: 20 Nov 2000 16:03:25 +0100 Organization: CERN - European Laboratory for Particle Physics Lines: 74 Message-ID: References: <6u4s13cykg.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: pcep-jamie.cern.ch X-Trace: sunnews.cern.ch 974732604 10999 (None) 137.138.38.126 X-Complaints-To: news@sunnews.cern.ch X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!EU.net!cern.ch!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2797 Neil Franklin writes: > Anyone know what features the 2 patents mentioned in the text forbid > Altera (and anyone else) from including in their devices? Who else is > endangered for being sued off of the market (I assume that Xilinx took > on Altera as largest competitor in 1993)? Filing date 1993 suggests > something that appeared in XC4000. > Dammit, after over 2 months of investigating the various chips, I was > just thinking of using Xilinx chips (the do seem to be the best). Now > I am going to have to rethink that (I belong to the dying breed of > people who think that societies wellfare should stand above maximal > individual profit). > Eith FLEX (and "its derivative programmable logic devices" = ACEX > and APEX?) illegal, what remains? (P.S. does anyone have a statemewnt > from Altera, what they are intending of doing?). No sympathy for Altera though. Have you seen the whole screenful of patent numbers on Altera Maxplus2's splash screen? Then every single generated text file includes a heavy boilerplate demanding no reverse engineering, no using the text for anything other than programming Altera devices etc. etc. Even GNU compilers don't place restrictions on the use of their output files. > MAX has not got enough FFs for me No kidding, especially when you count FFs in 1,000s :-) >> I'm sure this is all in the society's best interest. After all, that's >> what patents are for. Patents are intended for society's best interest by causing Xilinx to reveal their methods earlier rather than later. They probably did that too, and got their temporary monopoly in return. Is it good for society? Well you have admitted that Xilinx produce the best FPGAs... and their business model is bound to have helped with that. I guess the crux rests on whether Altera or other manufacturers would have produced better FPGAs, or FPGA tools, in the absence of Xilinx' patents. Personally I find the general lack of public information about internal FPGA architectures far more harmful. Despite the patents alleged purpose being to reveal secrets to the public -- they don't do that very well. > You can bet your soul on that :-). Hell and Eternal Damnation for all > patent lawmakers and lawyers. (Now why can't we get black magic or > Voodoo to work? :-)) > I suppose this has once again demonstrated that patent law has got to > be abolished. Completely. No replacement. The belief it was founded on > (patents are better (or less bad) than trade secrets) simply is false. > Trade secrets can be reverse engineered, patents are anti-competitive > devices that can not be legally circumvented. Indeed. Not that I'm for patents, but I'd be less offended by them if they revealed more technical detail in return for that stinking monopoly. Not only do you have to try and work around patents, get patents of your own for defence if you're a business (even when you don't want the theoretical benefit of patents: the monopoly), and keep an army of trained lawyers -- you _still_ have to reverse engineer the chips and tools anyway! > P.S. Have you signed the "no software patents in Europe" petition? > http://petition.eurolinux.org/ Yes. -- Jamie ###### Message-ID: <3A193E25.1CD4E5AE@algor.co.uk> From: Rick Filipkiewicz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news References: <8van4k$t66$1@news.inet.tele.dk> <8vavh6$17s$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Algorithmics Ltd. Cache-Post-Path: mudchute.algor.co.uk!root@oval.algor.co.uk X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 51 Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:07:17 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.254.210.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 974732840 62.254.210.251 (Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:07:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:07:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2775 kolja@prowokulta.org wrote: > http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=USRE034363__ > http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US04642487__ > > The second patent by William S. Carter contains claims for configurable > logic arrays in general and therefore could be attacked with > publications in the field of cellular automata from the sixties and > seventies. (von Neuman, Schaffner, Minnik, ...) > > The claims are for a logic array that contains a general interconnect > structure as well as a special interconnect structure. Most > work from the sixties will have only one or the other, but one > might be able to find some weird publication that proposes to > use both. > > The other patent is not as vulnerable to this attack, because it > restricts itself to integrated circuits. > Although one could try to attack on the basis that the restriction > to integrated circuits is not relevant to the invention. > > I hope that Altera succeeds in attacking these patents. > > In article <8van4k$t66$1@news.inet.tele.dk>, > "Dines Justesen" wrote: > > > While I could make quite a few comments on this, > > > I think I will just give you the link: > > > > > > > > > http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/xilinxwin.htm > > > > Alteras response is here: > > > > http://www.altera.com/html/new/pressrel/pr_litigation1.html > > > > Dines > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. Although I'm a Xilinx fan I think, in the spirit that competition is healthy, this might call for a global reponse from all us FPGA users. We could offer our collective services, a la Linux community, in an effort to come up with a way of re-engineering the Altera parts. ###### From: Magnus Homann Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news Date: 20 Nov 2000 16:44:40 +0100 Organization: Chalmers univ. of Technology Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <6u4s13cykg.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: licia.dtek.chalmers.se X-Trace: nyheter.chalmers.se 974735080 2432 129.16.30.88 (20 Nov 2000 15:44:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@chalmers.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 2000 15:44:40 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news000.worldonline.se!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2801 Jamie Lokier writes: > Not only do you have to try and work around patents, get patents of your > own for defence if you're a business (even when you don't want the > theoretical benefit of patents: the monopoly), and keep an army of > trained lawyers -- you _still_ have to reverse engineer the chips and > tools anyway! And this why I think patents hold no value to society, only to the company and, specially, their lawyers. It only forces companies to find new ways of performing the same task. Ways that might not be as good. So what are the odds we get rid of the patents in the near future? Pretty much zero. Homann -- Magnus Homann, M.Sc. CS & E d0asta@dtek.chalmers.se ###### From: Andy Peters <"apeters <"@> n o a o [.] e d u> Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:35:39 -0700 Organization: National Optical Astronomy Observatory Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8vbnen$17mo$2@noao.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: theremin.tuc.noao.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: noao.edu 974741783 40664 140.252.18.68 (20 Nov 2000 17:36:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@noao.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 2000 17:36:23 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2807 Philip Freidin wrote: > > While I could make quite a few comments on this, > I think I will just give you the link: > > http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/xilinxwin.htm Xilinx = Rambus? -- a ---------------------------- Andy Peters Sr. Electrical Engineer National Optical Astronomy Observatory 950 N Cherry Ave Tucson, AZ 85719 apeters (at) n o a o [dot] e d u "It is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to send an e-mail to the entire company and remove all doubt." ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news Date: 20 Nov 2000 23:15:06 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 70 Message-ID: <6upujqqoid.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <6u4s13cykg.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 974758506 917 10.0.3.2 (20 Nov 2000 22:15:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 2000 22:15:06 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2808 Jamie Lokier writes: > Neil Franklin writes: > > Anyone know what features the 2 patents mentioned in the text forbid > > Altera (and anyone else) from including in their devices? Who else is > > endangered for being sued off of the market (I assume that Xilinx took > > on Altera as largest competitor in 1993)? Filing date 1993 suggests > > something that appeared in XC4000. > > No sympathy for Altera though. Have you seen the whole screenful of > patent numbers on Altera Maxplus2's splash screen? No. As I said, I am just getting into FPGAs and on technical grounds have chosen Xilinx. So I have no Maxplus2 and have never used it. > Then every single generated text file includes a heavy boilerplate > demanding no reverse engineering, no using the text for anything other > than programming Altera devices etc. etc. Even GNU compilers don't > place restrictions on the use of their output files. Gawk! (GNU: that is not about gawk, your awk clone). > >> I'm sure this is all in the society's best interest. After all, that's > >> what patents are for. > > Patents are intended for society's best interest by causing Xilinx to > reveal their methods earlier rather than later. They probably did that > too, and got their temporary monopoly in return. > > Is it good for society? Well you have admitted that Xilinx produce the > best FPGAs... and their business model is bound to have helped with that. They do make em. But that is due to good engineering (nice design), not their patents. And their business model also contains such things like good marketing (good service to prospective customers). Both of these convinced me. > I guess the crux rests on whether Altera or other manufacturers would > have produced better FPGAs, or FPGA tools, in the absence of Xilinx' > patents. Arithmetic mode with 4 LUT inputs and additional mux + xor, instead of splitting into 2 3LUT arithmetic mode, as used by Altera, Lucent or even permanent 2 3LUTs with an optinal mux behind it as used by Atmel? > Personally I find the general lack of public information about internal > FPGA architectures far more harmful. Despite the patents alleged > purpose being to reveal secrets to the public -- they don't do that very > well. Exactly. Now if we got the bitstreams for an patent on their format... > Not only do you have to try and work around patents, get patents of your > own for defence if you're a business (even when you don't want the > theoretical benefit of patents: the monopoly), and keep an army of > trained lawyers -- you _still_ have to reverse engineer the chips and > tools anyway! ... and are not allowed to use the result, if it can be interpreted to be too similar to the patent. Tripple bummer. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news Date: 20 Nov 2000 23:17:56 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6un1euqodn.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8van4k$t66$1@news.inet.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 974758676 917 10.0.3.2 (20 Nov 2000 22:17:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 2000 22:17:56 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2809 "Dines Justesen" writes: > > While I could make quite a few comments on this, > > I think I will just give you the link: > > > > > > http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/xilinxwin.htm > > Alteras response is here: > > http://www.altera.com/html/new/pressrel/pr_litigation1.html Thanks for the other sides link. Hmmm. Xilinx says Flex and all follow ups, Altera says only Flex8000 is treatened. Anyone got any info on who is bending the truth by how much? -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### Message-ID: <3A19A244.A81CDB3A@algor.co.uk> From: Rick Filipkiewicz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news References: <8vbnen$17mo$2@noao.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Algorithmics Ltd. Cache-Post-Path: mudchute.algor.co.uk!root@oval.algor.co.uk X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 17 Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:14:28 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.254.210.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 974758470 62.254.210.251 (Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:14:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:14:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2815 Andy Peters wrote: > Philip Freidin wrote: > > > > While I could make quite a few comments on this, > > I think I will just give you the link: > > > > http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/xilinxwin.htm > > Xilinx = Rambus? > No but any damages it receives will most likely go straight into the Rambus defence fund. ###### Message-ID: <3A1A432A.5EF98B9C@sympatico.ca> From: Eric Montreal X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr-CA,fr-FR MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news References: <8vbnen$17mo$2@noao.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:40:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.229.215.101 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 974799645 64.229.215.101 (Tue, 21 Nov 2000 04:40:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 04:40:45 EST Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2824 Andy Peters wrote: > > Xilinx = Rambus? > No, at least for one reason : Xilinx makes products that *actually work* and relies on that as a primary source of revenue. Rambus relies on their lawsuits to extract a toll, that's a very different business model. Eric. ###### From: Magnus Homann Newsgroups: comp.arch.fpga Subject: Re: In the news Date: 21 Nov 2000 10:57:01 +0100 Organization: Chalmers univ. of Technology Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <8van4k$t66$1@news.inet.tele.dk> <6un1euqodn.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: licia.dtek.chalmers.se X-Trace: nyheter.chalmers.se 974800621 6690 129.16.30.88 (21 Nov 2000 09:57:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@chalmers.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Nov 2000 09:57:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch comp.arch.fpga:2838 Neil Franklin writes: > "Dines Justesen" writes: > > > > While I could make quite a few comments on this, > > > I think I will just give you the link: > > > > > > > > > http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/xilinxwin.htm > > > > Alteras response is here: > > > > http://www.altera.com/html/new/pressrel/pr_litigation1.html > > Thanks for the other sides link. > > Hmmm. Xilinx says Flex and all follow ups, Altera says only Flex8000 > is treatened. Anyone got any info on who is bending the truth by how > much? Both, a lot? Homann -- Magnus Homann, M.Sc. CS & E d0asta@dtek.chalmers.se