From: Billy Joe Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: FAQ questions? Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 21:16:42 -0400 Organization: Very good. Message-ID: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> Reply-To: Anyone.interested X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.570 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!Barn.!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11970 What is a PDP-10? What operating systems ran on it? Where can I get one? Emulators: Real Hardware: Where can I get software? What are all those "tape" files, and what format are they in? What tools can I use to extract the "real" files from the tape file? What cool programs can I run on these emulators that are not available elsewhere? ###### From: Lars Brinkhoff Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: 27 Sep 2002 08:10:21 +0200 Organization: nocrew Lines: 31 Sender: lars@junk.nocrew.org Message-ID: <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: junk.nocrew.org (213.242.147.30) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1033107314 10665769 213.242.147.30 (16 [140306]) X-Orig-Path: junk.nocrew.org!not-for-mail User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!junk.nocrew.ORG!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11942 My suggested answers. I'm not sure if everything's correct. Billy Joe writes: > What is a PDP-10? The PDP-10 architecture is a family of 36-bit word-addressed machines. They were manufactured primarily by DEC from 1964 to 1988, but the line was cancelled in 1983 in favour of the VAX family. Clones have been made by Xerox PARC, Foonly, Tymshare, Systems Concepts, XKL. Famous software running on PDP-10s include: EMACS (the first visual text editor), ITS, TENEX, TECO, SPELL (the first spell checker), ADVENT (the first? text adventure game), Zork, Dungeon?, and MacLisp. A memory word is 36 bits long, which is also the length of the general-purpose registers. All user instructions are 36 bits and have 9 bits to specify an operation, 4 bits to specify a register, 1 bit to indicate indirect addressing, 4 bits to specify an index register, and 18 bits to specify an address, offset, or immediate value. The first version of the architecture was limited to a virtual address space of 256K words; a later version extended this to a maximum of 1G words. > What operating systems ran on it? TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 by DEC. TENEX by BBN. ITS by MIT hackers. WAITS by Stanford hackers, developed from an early version of TOPS-10. FOONEX, Foonly's version of TENEX. TYMCOM-X, Tymshare's version of TOPS-10 or TOPS-20. -- Lars Brinkhoff http://lars.nocrew.org/ Linux, GCC, PDP-10, Brinkhoff Consulting http://www.brinkhoff.se/ HTTP programming ###### Message-ID: <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1033113589 12.237.69.162 (Fri, 27 Sep 2002 07:59:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 07:59:49 GMT Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 07:59:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!telocity-west!TELOCITY!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!usc.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11968 Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > My suggested answers. I'm not sure if everything's correct. > > Billy Joe writes: > > What is a PDP-10? > > The PDP-10 architecture is a family of 36-bit word-addressed machines. > They were manufactured primarily by DEC from 1964 to 1988, but the > line was cancelled in 1983 in favour of the VAX family. Clones have > been made by Xerox PARC, Foonly, Tymshare, Systems Concepts, XKL. > Famous software running on PDP-10s include: EMACS (the first visual > text editor), ITS, TENEX, TECO, SPELL (the first spell checker), > ADVENT (the first? text adventure game), Zork, Dungeon?, and MacLisp. > > A memory word is 36 bits long, which is also the length of the > general-purpose registers. All user instructions are 36 bits and have > 9 bits to specify an operation, 4 bits to specify a register, 1 bit to > indicate indirect addressing, 4 bits to specify an index register, and > 18 bits to specify an address, offset, or immediate value. The first > version of the architecture was limited to a virtual address space of > 256K words; a later version extended this to a maximum of 1G words. > You forgot to mention that the first 16 memory locations were actually the 16 general purpose registers. So using the memory address to specify a register allows register-to-register instructions. Since access to the registers was much quicker than the access to main memory, a trick was to put an entire loop into the main registers and execute it from there. That would make the machine *fly*!!! -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Billy Joe Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 04:34:30 -0400 Organization: Very good. Message-ID: <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> Reply-To: Anyone.interested References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.570 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!Barn.!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11963 Charles Richmond seems to have said: >You forgot to mention that the first 16 memory locations were >actually the 16 general purpose registers. So using the memory >address to specify a register allows register-to-register >instructions. Since access to the registers was much quicker >than the access to main memory, a trick was to put an entire >loop into the main registers and execute it from there. That >would make the machine *fly*!!! Only on SOME machines. Fast AC's were an option on the KA, no speedup there, and because "register" instructions broke the pipelining on the KL, they were actually SLOWER. If you built a "standard" copy of TECO for the KL, it was slower because it moved instruction loops into the ACs. The fastest KL TECO didn't do that, because fetching the instructions from the cache was much faster than fetching from the ACs. The standard test of this was something like "50000<0ji.$>$$". The meter board on the KL let you get very accurate times for this simple loop which spent all of it's time moving memory down 1 byte at a time. I think it was Bob Houk who hacked TECO to make it really fast on the KL. If you had the "fast ACs" option on the KA, or a KI, then, yes, running from the ACs was much faster. ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 07:33:37 -0700 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva0.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1033137219 14054 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva0.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11937 On Thu, 27 Sep 2002, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Famous software running on PDP-10s include: EMACS (the first visual > text editor), ITS, TENEX, TECO, SPELL (the first spell checker), > ADVENT (the first? text adventure game), Zork, Dungeon?, and MacLisp. I don't think that you need the "?" after "first". I don't know what "Dungeon" was as distinct from Zork, but there were certainly other dungeon-type games such as Haunt. Other notable software off the top of my head: SUDS (Stanford University Drawing System -- considered by some people to be the finest circuit drawing software of all time), MACSYMA, MacHack (Richard Greenblatt's chess-playing program, one of the first), TECH2 (another early chess program), the first IMAP server, the first KERMIT program (the "K" in KERMIT stood for KL10). The interest in PDP-10s goes beyond mere "retro-computing"; SUDS is still in production use with no obvious replacement. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: Lars Brinkhoff Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: 27 Sep 2002 16:56:13 +0200 Organization: nocrew Lines: 9 Sender: lars@junk.nocrew.org Message-ID: <853crvzdki.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: junk.nocrew.org (213.242.147.30) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1033138836 10623963 213.242.147.30 (16 [140306]) X-Orig-Path: junk.nocrew.org!not-for-mail User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!junk.nocrew.ORG!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11944 Mark Crispin writes: > The interest in PDP-10s goes beyond mere "retro-computing"; SUDS is still > in production use with no obvious replacement. And still developed actively, I believe. -- Lars Brinkhoff http://lars.nocrew.org/ Linux, GCC, PDP-10, Brinkhoff Consulting http://www.brinkhoff.se/ HTTP programming ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <853crvzdki.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 27 Sep 2002 16:07:30 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 27 Sep 2002 16:26:16 -0700, 209.66.107.17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12003 Mark Crispin writes: > The interest in PDP-10s goes beyond mere "retro-computing"; SUDS is still > in production use with no obvious replacement. Lars Brinkhoff writes: > And still developed actively, I believe. How does one obtain a copy? I'd settle for an old release if the current stuff is proprietary. ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: 28 Sep 2002 22:00:24 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 26 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87r8feciyv.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1033224489 2190 202.154.80.9 (28 Sep 2002 14:48:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:48:09 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p222.qv1-01.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11996 Lars Brinkhoff writes: > My suggested answers. I'm not sure if everything's correct. > Billy Joe writes: > > What is a PDP-10? A PDP-6 with bloat :) > The PDP-10 architecture is a family of 36-bit word-addressed machines. > They were manufactured primarily by DEC from 1964 to 1988, but the > line was cancelled in 1983 in favour of the VAX family. Clones have > been made by Xerox PARC, Foonly, Tymshare, Systems Concepts, XKL. > Famous software running on PDP-10s include: EMACS (the first visual > text editor), ITS, TENEX, TECO, SPELL (the first spell checker), > ADVENT (the first? text adventure game), Zork, Dungeon?, and MacLisp. Was Zork on the 10/20s? I always thought Zork was the comercial post DUNGEOn version that was run on early micros. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### Message-ID: <3D95E72B.5155F058@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <87r8feciyv.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1033227179 12.237.69.162 (Sat, 28 Sep 2002 15:32:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 15:32:59 GMT Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 15:32:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12004 Paul Repacholi wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Was Zork on the 10/20s? I always thought Zork was the comercial post > DUNGEOn version that was run on early micros. > Actually, Zork was first written on a -10 in a lisp-like language called MDL (pronounced "muddle"). A "rather paranoid DEC engineer" re-wrote it in FORTRAN...and that was DUNGEON. Later, the Zork folks at MIT formed a company called Infocom (and Licklider sat on the board of directors). They wrote an interpreter and created data files...and split Zork into *three* pieces. See the following web page: < http://www.csd.uwo.ca/Infocom/Articles/ieee.html> -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <87r8feciyv.fsf@prep.synonet.com> <3D95E72B.5155F058@ev1.net> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 28 Sep 2002 13:03:25 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 28 Sep 2002 13:22:20 -0700, 209.66.107.17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12012 Paul Repacholi wrote: > Was Zork on the 10/20s? I always thought Zork was the comercial post > DUNGEOn version that was run on early micros. Charles Richmond writes: > Actually, Zork was first written on a -10 in a lisp-like > language called MDL (pronounced "muddle"). A "rather > paranoid DEC engineer" re-wrote it in FORTRAN...and that > was DUNGEON. Later, the Zork folks at MIT formed a company > called Infocom (and Licklider sat on the board of directors). > They wrote an interpreter and created data files...and split > Zork into *three* pieces. Even the PDP-10 MDL version was for a while called DUNGEON, then it reverted to ZORK. So it wasn't only the FORTRAN version that was called DUNGEON. ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: 29 Sep 2002 08:32:17 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 29 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <8765wpd4a6.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <87r8feciyv.fsf@prep.synonet.com> <3D95E72B.5155F058@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1033260192 15887 202.154.80.9 (29 Sep 2002 00:43:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 00:43:12 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p222.qv1-01.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!snewsf0.syd.ops.aspac.uu.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12020 Eric Smith writes: > Paul Repacholi wrote: > > Was Zork on the 10/20s? I always thought Zork was the comercial post > > DUNGEOn version that was run on early micros. > Charles Richmond writes: > > Actually, Zork was first written on a -10 in a lisp-like > > language called MDL (pronounced "muddle"). A "rather > > paranoid DEC engineer" re-wrote it in FORTRAN...and that > > was DUNGEON. Later, the Zork folks at MIT formed a company > > called Infocom (and Licklider sat on the board of directors). > > They wrote an interpreter and created data files...and split > > Zork into *three* pieces. > Even the PDP-10 MDL version was for a while called DUNGEON, then it > reverted to ZORK. So it wasn't only the FORTRAN version that was > called DUNGEON. So it was ADVENT -> ZORK -> DUNGEO -> ZORK, is that correct? You are in a twisty maze of names, mostly re-cycled :) -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <87r8feciyv.fsf@prep.synonet.com> <3D95E72B.5155F058@ev1.net> <8765wpd4a6.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 28 Sep 2002 19:50:57 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 28 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 28 Sep 2002 20:09:56 -0700, 209.66.107.17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12024 Paul Repacholi writes: > So it was ADVENT -> ZORK -> DUNGEO -> ZORK, is that correct? There's no direct relation between ADVENT and ZORK, except to the extent that ZORK was inspired by ADVENT. My understanding of the evolution of the code is: ZORK (MDL) ---> DUNGEON (MDL) ----> ZORK (MDL) ------> ZORK I (ZIL) ("Mainframe \ (name change) (name changed (commercial product ZORK") \ back) from Infocom) \ \ --> DUNGEON (FORTRAN) ----> DUNGEON (C) (translated by an (translated by engineer at DEC, and f2c and fixed released to DECUS) up by hand) Most of the parts of ZORK that didn't make it into ZORK I were later used in Zork II and Zork III, along with new material such as the Wizard of Frobozz. There was a series of three "History of Zork" articles by Tim Anderson and Stu Galley in the New Zork Times volume 4 (1985), describing all of this in considerably more detail. PDF files of these issues can be found in the Interctive Fiction Archive: http://www.ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archiveXinfocomXNZT+TSL.html ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> Organization: Chez Inwap X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Originator: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Lines: 26 Message-ID: <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 07:13:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.94.177.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 1033542781 130.94.177.175 (Wed, 02 Oct 2002 07:13:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 07:13:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12077 In article <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com>, Billy Joe wrote: >Charles Richmond seems to have said: > >>You forgot to mention that the first 16 memory locations were >>actually the 16 general purpose registers. So using the memory >>address to specify a register allows register-to-register >>instructions. Since access to the registers was much quicker >>than the access to main memory, a trick was to put an entire >>loop into the main registers and execute it from there. That >>would make the machine *fly*!!! > >Only on SOME machines. Fast AC's were an option on the KA, Not really. As I recall, no KA's were ever shipped without fast memory. The "option" was theoritical, not really optional. >If you had the "fast ACs" option on the KA, or a KI, then, yes, >running from the ACs was much faster. In other words, for _ALL_ KA and KI systems that were actually sold, running from the ACs was much faster. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: 02 Oct 2002 20:42:41 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 51 Message-ID: <6uit0k7kda.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1033584161 748 10.0.3.2 (2 Oct 2002 18:42:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Oct 2002 18:42:41 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12081 inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) writes: > Billy Joe wrote: > >Charles Richmond seems to have said: > > > >>than the access to main memory, a trick was to put an entire > >>loop into the main registers and execute it from there. That > >>would make the machine *fly*!!! > > > >Only on SOME machines. Fast AC's were an option on the KA, > > Not really. As I recall, no KA's were ever shipped without fast > memory. The "option" was theoritical, not really optional. > > In other words, for _ALL_ KA and KI systems that were actually > sold, running from the ACs was much faster. A few questions about such "options", and instruction set enhancements in general: Apart from "fast ACs" the KA also had byte operations and FPU as options. I have seen mentioned that they were also allways installed. Does TOPS-10 (or even TOPS-20) use both of these, or can they/one run on an (never sold?) machine without? In particularly, do they need FPU to run? With the KI "double precision arithmetic" was added, and on KL "string operations" and later "G Float". I have heard from Lars Brinkhoff that XKL told him to not use strings in his gcc port, because they only partially tested it, because "no one uses them". So I assume that even TOPS-20 does not. What about the other stuff mentioned, do TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 use them? What feature set is needed for either system?. ITS is said to run on KA+pager, so I assume it doesn't use any of them. Oh, and a last question: I have read the names "fast ACs", "fast registers" and "fast memory". Which is the official name for this feature? -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: Thu, 03 Oct 02 10:20:40 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <6uit0k7kda.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaDKW7kqrqHl3xYaoDoPX2l56hMGNHsYOG32yrgFvE9k+LxfuzZT8LG X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Oct 2002 11:37:23 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-159 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12082 In article <6uit0k7kda.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) writes: > >> Billy Joe wrote: >> >Charles Richmond seems to have said: >> > >> >>than the access to main memory, a trick was to put an entire >> >>loop into the main registers and execute it from there. That >> >>would make the machine *fly*!!! >> > >> >Only on SOME machines. Fast AC's were an option on the KA, >> >> Not really. As I recall, no KA's were ever shipped without fast >> memory. The "option" was theoritical, not really optional. >> >> In other words, for _ALL_ KA and KI systems that were actually >> sold, running from the ACs was much faster. > >A few questions about such "options", and instruction set enhancements >in general: >With the KI "double precision arithmetic" was added, and on KL "string >operations" and later "G Float". > >I have heard from Lars Brinkhoff that XKL told him to not use strings >in his gcc port, because they only partially tested it, because "no >one uses them". So I assume that even TOPS-20 does not. COBOL may. > >Oh, and a last question: I have read the names "fast ACs", "fast >registers" and "fast memory". Which is the official name for this >feature? All of them. It depended on the instruction you wrote. :-) Whenever the guys talked, they used all the terms interchangably. It took me a long time to figure out these were all the same thing. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <6uit0k7kda.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 02 Oct 2002 16:15:12 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 6 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 2 Oct 2002 16:34:52 -0700, 209.66.107.17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12096 Mark Crispin writes: > ITS software mostly stuck to what was available on the KA. Note, however, > that the pager used by ITS was unique to ITS, and that the KL/KS versions > of ITS required special microcode. Did ITS ever run on the KI10? ###### From: Alan Greig Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:16:53 +0100 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <6uit0k7kda.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-332.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12098 On Thu, 03 Oct 02 10:20:40 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >COBOL may. I was just about to say that I thought that Cobol made use of EXTEND string instructions if available. I think it may have required a compiler switch though. -- Alan ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? From: John Saeger References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <6uit0k7kda.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: org Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.235.149.39 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1033660759 12.235.149.39 (Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:59:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:59:19 GMT Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:59:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12095 Mark Crispin wrote in > Fast Memory, with fast ACs being a nickname. > > Register is a modern term, for the benefit of youngsters who can't > grasp what ACs were. We never called the ACs registers, and if we > used register at all we used it to refer to internal processor states > and not memory. Well, my memory is not so good, but I was programming the PDP-10 around 1974-1976, and I seem to recall that the word *register* existed but it was considered to be an IBM kind of thing. We were encouraged to call them *accumulators*. But in the context of memory addressing, I think they were called index registers. Looking on page 15 of my 1973 System Reference I see the term *index register* in the description of the instruction format. These were the accumulators weren't they? Or have I forgotten how this machine worked? John ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:38:28 -0700 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <6uit0k7kda.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva0.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1033663111 15624 (None) 140.142.17.38 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva0.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12085 On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, John Saeger wrote: > Well, my memory is not so good, but I was programming the PDP-10 around > 1974-1976, and I seem to recall that the word *register* existed but it was > considered to be an IBM kind of thing. Correct. > But in the context of memory addressing, I think they were > called index registers. Looking on page 15 of my 1973 System Reference I > see the term *index register* in the description of the instruction format. > These were the accumulators weren't they? No. AC 0 could not be used as an index register, since 0 in the index register field meant "no indexing". Think of it this way: 15 of the 16 ACs (numbered 0 to 17 octal) could be used as the data source for the 15 index registers (numbered 1 to 17 octal). That does not mean that 15 of the 16 ACs were registers. The 16 ACs overlapped the first 16 locations of memory. For most purposes, they *were* the first 16 locations of memory in both section 0 and section 1 (by means of paging you could map physical page 0 to some other page and thus get at the "hidden" memory locations; the RH20 used this). Index registers were another thing entirely. There were special rules, particularly when running in non-zero sections, on how index registers worked. So, it's best to think of index registers as being separate from ACs, albeit taking values from the ACs. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: 3 Oct 2002 19:06:30 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <6uit0k7kda.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1033671990 12083 10.0.0.43 (3 Oct 2002 19:06:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Oct 2002 19:06:30 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12104 In article , John Saeger wrote: >Well, my memory is not so good, but I was programming the PDP-10 around >1974-1976, and I seem to recall that the word *register* existed but it was >considered to be an IBM kind of thing. We were encouraged to call them >*accumulators*. Accumulator implies that you can perform arithmetic (addition at least) on the value in the register. >But in the context of memory addressing, I think they were >called index registers. Index register implies that you can access memory indirectly through the register. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. 29.6852N 95.5770W WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: Fri, 04 Oct 02 08:43:24 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <6uit0k7kda.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ4YBViNuBZs+pJL/m0e+5eK9fSQsfbZ6YuO4U84Pi9yE2d46FPRs7e X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Oct 2002 10:00:15 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-143 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12107 In article , Alan Greig wrote: >On Thu, 03 Oct 02 10:20:40 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >> >>COBOL may. > >I was just about to say that I thought that Cobol made use of EXTEND >string instructions if available. I think it may have required a >compiler switch though. Well, a fast TECO search would find it :-). I just can't remember the specifics of certain conversations JMF had with one of the COBOL critters. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: Fri, 04 Oct 02 08:45:29 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <6uit0k7kda.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYzhhnAbo5urtu5gOrzcl4Csg6ux8ViOZc+0gsQyB/MUvn3STQOF1k6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Oct 2002 10:02:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-143 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12109 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: >On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, John Saeger wrote: >> Well, my memory is not so good, but I was programming the PDP-10 around >> 1974-1976, and I seem to recall that the word *register* existed but it was >> considered to be an IBM kind of thing. > >Correct. > >> But in the context of memory addressing, I think they were >> called index registers. Looking on page 15 of my 1973 System Reference I >> see the term *index register* in the description of the instruction format. >> These were the accumulators weren't they? > >No. AC 0 could not be used as an index register, since 0 in the index >register field meant "no indexing". > >Think of it this way: 15 of the 16 ACs (numbered 0 to 17 octal) could be >used as the data source for the 15 index registers (numbered 1 to 17 >octal). That does not mean that 15 of the 16 ACs were registers. > >The 16 ACs overlapped the first 16 locations of memory. For most >purposes, they *were* the first 16 locations of memory in both section 0 >and section 1 (by means of paging you could map physical page 0 to some >other page and thus get at the "hidden" memory locations; the RH20 used >this). > >Index registers were another thing entirely. There were special rules, >particularly when running in non-zero sections, on how index registers >worked. So, it's best to think of index registers as being separate from >ACs, albeit taking values from the ACs. From a programmer's POV, you used the AC reference to do that indexing. So you're both right :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: Fri, 04 Oct 02 08:54:44 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <6uit0k7kda.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbQh1TVXpuMB/tCyLwUIAfPZcJgW6m54bGh7jj4PCVWez4YcG2Jmh+P X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Oct 2002 10:11:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-143 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12108 In article , Alan Greig wrote: >On Thu, 03 Oct 02 10:20:40 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >> >>COBOL may. > >I was just about to say that I thought that Cobol made use of EXTEND >string instructions if available. I think it may have required a >compiler switch though. That sounds like something we would do (backwards compatibility goals). I have no idea what went on with RMS and DBMS. Knowing those guys, I would assume everything went in. It was a badge of somethingorother to use exotics. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <6uit0k7kda.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: Chez Inwap X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Originator: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Lines: 43 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 01:46:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.94.177.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 1033696009 130.94.177.175 (Fri, 04 Oct 2002 01:46:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 01:46:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12117 In article <6uit0k7kda.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >Apart from "fast ACs" the KA also had byte operations and FPU as >options. I have seen mentioned that they were also allways installed. > >Does TOPS-10 (or even TOPS-20) use both of these, or can they/one run >on an (never sold?) machine without? In particularly, do they need FPU >to run? The only time I recall any floating point instructions in the Monitor was in regards to the class scheduler. Or maybe that was just in the user-mode program that diddled with the scheduler parameters. (The latter was originally written in FORTRAN.) >With the KI "double precision arithmetic" was added, and on KL "string >operations" and later "G Float". > >I have heard from Lars Brinkhoff that XKL told him to not use strings >in his gcc port, because they only partially tested it, because "no >one uses them". So I assume that even TOPS-20 does not. The other name for the KL's extended instruction set was the Business Instruction Set. The COBOL compiler used BIS when available for processing PICTURE clauses, and/or BCD to integer conversions. >Oh, and a last question: I have read the names "fast ACs", "fast >registers" and "fast memory". Which is the official name for this >feature? On the KA's console, the switch which activated the fast ACs was labelled "FM ENABLE". From the hardware point of view, they were Fast Memory; any and all accesses to physical core locations 000000 through 000017 were redirected to fast semiconductor memory instead. From the software point of view, they were Fast Accumulators, since the vast majority of the references were via the AC field in the OP code (as opposed to memory targets in the Effective Address field). -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> Organization: Chez Inwap X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Originator: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Lines: 23 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 02:00:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.94.177.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 1033696818 130.94.177.175 (Fri, 04 Oct 2002 02:00:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 02:00:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.sprintnetops.net!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12114 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: >Index registers were another thing entirely. There were special rules, >particularly when running in non-zero sections, on how index registers >worked. So, it's best to think of index registers as being separate from >ACs, albeit taking values from the ACs. Yep. I remember seeing a design where writing a new value to an accumulator caused the bits to be stored in three different locations: AC bank "A". AC bank "B". Index registers. The two accumulator banks allowed to send the contents of T1 to one side of the integer ALU and the contents of T2 to the other side simultaneously. The index registers were used by a completely different part of the microcode that handled Effective Address calculation. Yet another design had one or more floating point accumulator banks that would also receive the bits whenever an accumulator was modified. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: Sun, 06 Oct 02 09:39:26 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <2htupu4p65hr69hog0bhk83i978dh7mhid@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZyJdgffgDtc4jczwvgTw56R1fAR1LiuK4JcMui4oRv4AN8VJA97Qsg X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 2002 10:56:38 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-212 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12127 In article <2htupu4p65hr69hog0bhk83i978dh7mhid@4ax.com>, Billy Joe wrote: >Joe Smith seems to have said: > >>Not really. As I recall, no KA's were ever shipped without fast >>memory. The "option" was theoritical, not really optional. > >The KA in our lab (known as the Doomsday Lab) did not have fast ACs. >I specifically asked the Field Service guy who was working on it about >that one day. > >Of course, your statement might still be correct, as the KA was serial >number 1, and, technically, never sold. Did it ever get upgraded? I never met System #1 but I did a lot of work on System #2. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Billy Joe Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 19:33:10 -0400 Organization: Very good. Message-ID: <2htupu4p65hr69hog0bhk83i978dh7mhid@4ax.com> Reply-To: Anyone.interested References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.570 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!Barn.!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12130 Joe Smith seems to have said: >Not really. As I recall, no KA's were ever shipped without fast >memory. The "option" was theoritical, not really optional. The KA in our lab (known as the Doomsday Lab) did not have fast ACs. I specifically asked the Field Service guy who was working on it about that one day. Of course, your statement might still be correct, as the KA was serial number 1, and, technically, never sold. ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: 12 Oct 2002 00:50:29 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 30 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87zntkq5re.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <2htupu4p65hr69hog0bhk83i978dh7mhid@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1034399592 11788 202.154.80.9 (12 Oct 2002 05:13:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 05:13:12 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p043.qv1-01.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!itgate.net!news.it.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.zip.com.au!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12165 Billy Joe writes: > Joe Smith seems to have said: > >Not really. As I recall, no KA's were ever shipped without fast > >memory. The "option" was theoritical, not really optional. > The KA in our lab (known as the Doomsday Lab) did not have fast ACs. > I specifically asked the Field Service guy who was working on it > about that one day. > Of course, your statement might still be correct, as the KA was > serial number 1, and, technically, never sold. Ah.... I was told that although UWA ordered their 6 without FM, it was fitted. Time and the like have eaten if they had to pay for it or if it was a freebie. Seems that at that point, DEC had never run without FM, and in theory it should all `just work'... This was later expanded with a comment that DEC never sold a 36 bit CPU without FM. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <2htupu4p65hr69hog0bhk83i978dh7mhid@4ax.com> <87zntkq5re.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 12 Oct 2002 22:49:36 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 12 Oct 2002 23:11:09 -0700, 209.66.107.17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!telocity-west!TELOCITY!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12172 Paul Repacholi writes: > I was told that although UWA ordered their 6 without FM, it was > fitted. Time and the like have eaten if they had to pay for it or if > it was a freebie. Seems that at that point, DEC had never run without > FM, and in theory it should all `just work'... I can imagine reasons that they might have been reluctant to sell a machine without FM, since all the others they sold had it. However, I doubt that it was due to inexperience in running a system without FM. It was standard practice if the FM went bad to run the machine with the FM Enable switch turned off until FS repaired it. I was astounded to discover that the FM in the KA10 is implemented using integrated circuits! I'm pretty sure this was NOT the case for the PDP-6 FM. ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FAQ questions? Date: 14 Oct 2002 22:44:10 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 31 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87n0phkrlx.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <05c7pugvjsd94ujbnfr1a9b19vfvda54mv@4ax.com> <853crw0xpu.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3D942B76.E95132A4@ev1.net> <0f58pu8ku96va9qvkqg1e5u28230tajp83@4ax.com> <10xm9.18854$T_.432871@iad-read.news.verio.net> <2htupu4p65hr69hog0bhk83i978dh7mhid@4ax.com> <87zntkq5re.fsf@prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1034606710 28879 202.154.80.9 (14 Oct 2002 14:45:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:45:10 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p218.qv1-01.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:12177 Eric Smith writes: > Paul Repacholi writes: > > I was told that although UWA ordered their 6 without FM, it was > > fitted. Time and the like have eaten if they had to pay for it or > > if it was a freebie. Seems that at that point, DEC had never run > > without FM, and in theory it should all `just work'... > I can imagine reasons that they might have been reluctant to sell a > machine without FM, since all the others they sold had it. However, > I doubt that it was due to inexperience in running a system without > FM. It was standard practice if the FM went bad to run the machine > with the FM Enable switch turned off until FS repaired it. > I was astounded to discover that the FM in the KA10 is implemented > using integrated circuits! I'm pretty sure this was NOT the case > for the PDP-6 FM. Once more with feeling, "Yeah, it's the F M alright!" `t was know as `The Harp' I'm told, as it had a set of conections soldered onto the non-socket side of the modules. So getting them out was the pits. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.