From: lpricci@att.net (Lawrence Larry Ricci) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDAs and very small -10s (was Re: PDP-6 monitor routines.) Date: 20 Apr 2002 19:53:49 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3cbf631f.3661625@news.ami.com.au> <6ug01ruz8x.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3CC1EE7B.1AA09712@DeleteMe.jfet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.91.175.253 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1019357629 21702 127.0.0.1 (21 Apr 2002 02:53:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Apr 2002 02:53:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11207 Jacob Nelson wrote in message news:<3CC1EE7B.1AA09712@DeleteMe.jfet.net>... > Neil Franklin wrote: > > Sorry. I am just presently pissed off with the state of the pocket > > computer marketplace. Entirely dominated by 320x240 (or worse 190x160) > > pixel scribble-on-the-top Palm/WinCE toys. No 640x240 (or 480) machine > > with an keyboard and Linux ability in sight. > > Some of those WinCE toys can run Linux just fine. And Sharp actually > sells a PDA (the Zaurus) that runs Linux out of the box *and* has a > keyboard. True, the screen is 240x320 and the keyboard requires small > thumbs, but you *can* run Emacs at the command line. The production > version has 64MB RAM and a 206MHz StrongARM processor. Not too bad.... Anyone who wants can get a SA1110 + SA1111 solution, full VGA or more; Linux, CE, VxWorks- whatever-; just add plastic http://www.applieddata.net/defaultDevPlatform.asp Lawrence Ricci (eMVP) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDAs and very small -10s (was Re: PDP-6 monitor routines.) Date: 21 Apr 2002 21:40:19 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 57 Message-ID: <6upu0sj0ws.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3cbf631f.3661625@news.ami.com.au> <6ug01ruz8x.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3CC1EE7B.1AA09712@DeleteMe.jfet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1019418024 1366 10.0.3.2 (21 Apr 2002 19:40:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Apr 2002 19:40:24 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11208 lpricci@att.net (Lawrence Larry Ricci) writes: > Jacob Nelson wrote in message news:<3CC1EE7B.1AA09712@DeleteMe.jfet.net>... > > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > Sorry. I am just presently pissed off with the state of the pocket > > > computer marketplace. Entirely dominated by 320x240 (or worse 190x160) > > > pixel scribble-on-the-top Palm/WinCE toys. No 640x240 (or 480) machine > > > with an keyboard and Linux ability in sight. Did not get original post, so answering here: > > Some of those WinCE toys can run Linux just fine. And Sharp actually For sufficiently small values of "fine". A colleague of mine has an Compaq iPaq with Linux on it. I was not impressed. He also not, he is back to using his notebook. > > sells a PDA (the Zaurus) that runs Linux out of the box *and* has a > > keyboard. True, the screen is 240x320 and the keyboard requires small > > thumbs, Yes. One day they may discover the great idea of putting the keyboard along the long edge of the display, with an hinge in between. At the moment an squashed font and an on-screen keyboard is preferable. A few days ago I saw something called OQO that may fit the bill. 640x480, and the press release said something about optional hardware keyboard. Also full x86 PC compatible. Designed by ex Apple Powerbook Titanium designers. But their website sucks rocks on computers without Flash. I have mailed the webmaster. > > but you *can* run Emacs at the command line. With 4 pixel wide font to get 80 char width :-). > > The production > > version has 64MB RAM and a 206MHz StrongARM processor. Not too bad.... CPU is OK, but the user-IO sucks. > Anyone who wants can get a SA1110 + SA1111 solution, full VGA or more; > Linux, CE, VxWorks- whatever-; just add plastic > > http://www.applieddata.net/defaultDevPlatform.asp Looks interesting. Wonder if they sell single exemplars to hobbyists. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDAs and very small -10s (was Re: PDP-6 monitor routines.) Date: 21 Apr 2002 23:19:30 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3cbf631f.3661625@news.ami.com.au> <3CC1EE7B.1AA09712@DeleteMe.jfet.net> <6upu0sj0ws.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019431170 584 10.0.0.43 (21 Apr 2002 23:19:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Apr 2002 23:19:30 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!feed-ev1!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11210 In article <6upu0sj0ws.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >Yes. One day they may discover the great idea of putting the keyboard >along the long edge of the display, with an hinge in between. At the >moment an squashed font and an on-screen keyboard is preferable. If that's what you want, there's a number of devices that will fit the bill. Not all PDAs are palm-sized. And there are some excellent keyboards available for the ones that are. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDAs and very small -10s (was Re: PDP-6 monitor routines.) Date: 22 Apr 2002 21:09:38 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 62 Message-ID: <6uelh7v9cd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3cbf631f.3661625@news.ami.com.au> <3CC1EE7B.1AA09712@DeleteMe.jfet.net> <6upu0sj0ws.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1019502578 398 10.0.3.2 (22 Apr 2002 19:09:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 2002 19:09:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11215 peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > In article <6upu0sj0ws.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: > >Yes. One day they may discover the great idea of putting the keyboard > >along the long edge of the display, with an hinge in between. At the > >moment an squashed font and an on-screen keyboard is preferable. > > If that's what you want, there's a number of devices that will fit the > bill. Where? All I have looked at fail on one or more criteria: - screen min 640x200, allows 80x25 with 8x8 font. - keyboard of sensible size, long screen side, not dangling on cable - has ethernet or PCMCIA slot for it, for backup and using the files on it while at desktop (remote login), as PC companion device - runs Linux (or at least Minix), both enough disk space and supported architecture, needed for integrating into Linux desktop system - fits in jacket pocket The nearests hits so far are/were: - HP100LX/200LX: only 80188 and MS-DOS 5.0, slow, may possibly run Minix (but not proven), only one Slot, but refurbished available with 64M RAM disk, mine (original 2M RAM) has unreliable keyboard - IBM PC110: fullfilled all, but real hard on the size limit (3/4 video cassette), large problems with mechanical stability, mine totally broken (desitegrated) - Psion 5MX: fails Ethernet+Disk, and only 1 CF slot to add one of them, nut nearest contender so far - HP Jornada 710/720: fails no Linux for it, as such no better than my existing 10 year old HP 100LX - ???: I am still searching > Not all PDAs are palm-sized. There exist a few mini-PC devices from Toshiba and Sony, but they are video cassette sized, too large for an jacket pocket or belt carried. Once I need to carry luggage, I can just as good carry around an notebook and save upgrading my desktop and have only one filesystem. > And there are some excellent > keyboards available for the ones that are. Which dangle on cables, or need complex unfolding and plugging together. Or even an table to lie on. Not suitable for that quick note while riding the train/bus. Not to mention the lack of screen space. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDAs and very small -10s (was Re: PDP-6 monitor routines.) Date: 22 Apr 2002 20:24:30 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3cbf631f.3661625@news.ami.com.au> <6upu0sj0ws.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6uelh7v9cd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019507070 69498 10.0.0.43 (22 Apr 2002 20:24:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 2002 20:24:30 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!xmission!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11224 In article <6uelh7v9cd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >- screen min 640x200, allows 80x25 with 8x8 font. Jornada 720. Mobilepro 790. >- keyboard of sensible size, long screen side, not dangling on cable Jornada 720. Mobilepro 790. >- has ethernet or PCMCIA slot for it, for backup and using the files > on it while at desktop (remote login), as PC companion device Jornada 720. Mobilepro 790. >- runs Linux (or at least Minix), both enough disk space and supported > architecture, needed for integrating into Linux desktop system http://www.handhelds.org/~gberenfield/Jornada/index.html Don't know about the MobilePro. >Which dangle on cables, or need complex unfolding and plugging >together. Or even an table to lie on. Not suitable for that quick >note while riding the train/bus. If it's a quick note, a stylus has been more than adequate for me. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-6 monitor routines. Date: 23 Apr 2002 00:13:30 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 62 Message-ID: <6uy9fftm9h.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3cbf631f.3661625@news.ami.com.au> <6ug01ruz8x.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6ubscbv8k7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1019513610 1377 10.0.3.2 (22 Apr 2002 22:13:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 2002 22:13:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11227 peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > In article <6ubscbv8k7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: > > >> HP Jornada 720. > > >Nice hardware. Right power and size and features. But little used Hitachi > >processor with no Linux. > > http://www.handhelds.org/~gberenfield/Jornada/index.html Wow! 3 Months ago I did 3 surf sessions through various seach engines to find such an site, with no success. Thanks for the pointer! Very large massive thanks. > >> They seem to be losing out in the market though, because those tiny > >> keyboards are too small to touch-type on. > > >No worse that the HP 100LX keayboard, and that was good enough for > >standing "hold with both hands and 2 thumbs typing" use. No need for > >touch typing for notes on the go. > > If thumbtyping is enough, then there's the Zaurus, as well as any of the > clipon keyboards for Pocket PCs and Palms. I prefer at least somewhat decent keys for it. > I tried thumbtyping, and I'll take a stylus any day. Me never. I once tried one (Apple Newton) and disliked it immediately. I suppose that is due to my handwriting being barely human-readable, let alone computer-readable. OTOH I once thumbtyped over 15k of text (incrementally, in many additions, over 4 weeks, that was on an bus tour + camping holiday with only the HP 100LX). > >And next to no display pixels. > > If you want something that'll fit in a shirt or trouser pocket, rather than > a jacket pocket, you have to give up something somewhere. But the HP 100LX already told me that I do not need to give up. That was full 80188 and MS-DOS 5.0 nearly 10 years ago. Today we have factor 16-64 denser chips and at least identical meachanics. And the Jornada 720 proves that. Thanks again for the pointer to the website. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### From: Mike Ross Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDAs and very small -10s (was Re: PDP-6 monitor routines.) Message-ID: References: <3cbf631f.3661625@news.ami.com.au> <3CC1EE7B.1AA09712@DeleteMe.jfet.net> <6upu0sj0ws.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 05:24:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.108.217.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyc.rr.com 1019539455 66.108.217.161 (Tue, 23 Apr 2002 01:24:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 01:24:15 EDT Organization: Road Runner - NYC Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-out.nyc.rr.com!typhoon.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11242 On 21 Apr 2002 23:19:30 GMT, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >In article <6upu0sj0ws.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, >Neil Franklin wrote: >>Yes. One day they may discover the great idea of putting the keyboard >>along the long edge of the display, with an hinge in between. At the >>moment an squashed font and an on-screen keyboard is preferable. > >If that's what you want, there's a number of devices that will fit the >bill. Not all PDAs are palm-sized. And there are some excellent >keyboards available for the ones that are. Free clue: try a Sony Picturebook. A little big to describe as a PDA, but in other respects pretty damn good. Mike http://www.corestore.org Rangers Catering Corps - 'we boil for the One, we fry for the One' ###### From: baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDAs and very small -10s (was Re: PDP-6 monitor routines.) Date: 23 Apr 2002 18:30:14 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <3cbf631f.3661625@news.ami.com.au> <6upu0sj0ws.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6uelh7v9cd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.92.164.43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1019611814 11567 127.0.0.1 (24 Apr 2002 01:30:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Apr 2002 01:30:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed.sjc.globix.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!colt.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!isdnet!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11239 peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote in message news:... > In article <6uelh7v9cd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: > >- screen min 640x200, allows 80x25 with 8x8 font. > > Jornada 720. Mobilepro 790. > > >- keyboard of sensible size, long screen side, not dangling on cable > > Jornada 720. Mobilepro 790. > > >- has ethernet or PCMCIA slot for it, for backup and using the files > > on it while at desktop (remote login), as PC companion device > > Jornada 720. Mobilepro 790. > > >- runs Linux (or at least Minix), both enough disk space and supported > > architecture, needed for integrating into Linux desktop system > > http://www.handhelds.org/~gberenfield/Jornada/index.html > > Don't know about the MobilePro. NetBSD/hpcarm port supports the Jornada 720. http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/hpcarm/ NetBSD/hpcmips port supports the Mobilepro line. I don't see the 790 mentioned. http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/hpcmips/ Super-Hitachi based handhelds: http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/hpcsh/ > >Which dangle on cables, or need complex unfolding and plugging > >together. Or even an table to lie on. Not suitable for that quick > >note while riding the train/bus. > > If it's a quick note, a stylus has been more than adequate for me.