From: Alan Greig Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 2 Apr 2002 06:56:06 -0800 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 101 Message-ID: References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-861.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.91 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10824 In article <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca>, JF says... >>I have always seen 2 Digitals. The one that dealt with me, and the "dream" one >that had all the great stuff, red carpets, visits from sales critters etc. >When I was at a bank, getting the salescritter to come and help prevent some >department from kicking the vax out was impossible. Yet, I hear of other >customers who had available to them full resources from Digital, could get >some of the Mass. engineers to make technical presentations to their folks to >push for a new product. Yes there were two Digitals. One was called DEC and was outstanding, the latter incarnation turned itself on its head and renamed itself Digital. Much of the old DEC culture survived for many years and islands of it still exist today. Ironically VMS engineering and the not quite dead yet Alpha and Storage design teams represent the last coherent part of DEC culture still alive. Ironic because VAX/VMS then Alpha was to be the driver behind the new Digital. Helpfully Gordon Bell has made available DEC's suicide note on his Microsoft web site at http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/VAX%20Strategy%20c1979.pdf Although much of the document makes sense what is clear is that DEC and Bell had lost touch with the customer. The document sets out the policy of dumping multiple architectures and operating systems in favour of (at that time) VAX and VMS with the logic being that they would piss off fewer customers by dropping products bit by bit and most would accept the 'replacement' offerings. It already contains sentences along the lines of "key customers are in favour" and "we simplify things for them" etc, etc. Sound familiar? From that point onwards DEC changed from a company responsive to customer needs to one which attempted to drive the customer where it wanted them to go. To make matters worse it then changed that direction every few years. First VMS, then Unix then NT, now goodness knows where. Customers who wanted diversity were dismissed as whiners or sore losers and many drifted away looking elsewhere. Twenty years of this has ingrained it so deeply that multiple analysts and customers just have no belief in anything Compaq says today. At first the drift was slow and the strategy appeared to work. Digital did build VAX and VMS up but too slowly and it kept it way overpriced and took a long, long time to realise it had to keep software functionality up with the competition. It relied on the DEC name and culture selling systems as it slowly decimated that very culture. The low end and mid range competition caught up and, even when Digital could still have played the game, it rolled over and died. Finally it convinced itself "there is no future in being different" and brought about its own demise. The strategy that once boosted VMS into the stratosphere has now almost come full circle. VMS and Alpha are now in the same position the DEC-10 and DEC-20 line were in at the time of the Gordon Bell paper (circa 78/79). Gordon Bell the father of both the 36 bit line (PDP-6/10/20) and the 32 bit line authored the document which will finally likely kill VMS as it did TOPS-10/20. It could not be more appropriate that both he and Dave Cutler are now at Microsoft given that the document says that the plan will help Digital compete with emerging PCs. Ooops!!! The final, ultimate irony is that Microsoft itself may finally fall victim to the same "one OS fits all" strategy as more and more folk choose not to be driven and go for Linux. Some (in alt.sys.pdp10 especially) might not agree but I still believe a portable VMS can have a healthy future as well. But does HP and Compaq management. The answer has to be "no" unless they finally overturn Bell's nearly a quarter of a century old policy paper. And perhaps MS should embrace other architectures as well if it wants to last longer than the 40 or so years DEC/Digital managed. >When I asked for such a tech presentation to push the DECNET/SNA stuff to the >bank's IT technicians and managers, all I got was some local guy who knew >little about the product and wasted everyone's time. Yet, at DECUS events, >you'd meet other customers who had incredible service. > >My view is that Mr Main is part of the "dream" Digital, while the rest of the >world has progressed to the one and only Digital I ever knew. Yep, much of the face of Digital we see in comp.os.vms reflects the little left of the old DEC. I'm x-posting this so some may not agree but my memory tells me it is so. In fact some of the current VMS team were there in the PDP-10 days. When our current Alpha cluster was installed two years ago, Compaq FS turned out in force and I met three engineers I had known from my DEC-20 days as a young, innocent programer 20 years ago. They could all document every single wrong headed decision DEC ever made. They are not listened to and instead a new bunch of incompetents is appointed to run the company every few years. I really do feel sorry for the highly enthusiastic Compaq employees who continue to stick their heads above the parapet even as they get shot at. And I know I do it to but that's because the real culprits won't defend themselves in public. >Had it not been for DECUS where I saw a version of Digital I had not >encounterered, I probably would have never been keen on pushing Digital, seing >its potential, and fighting to try to get the level of service that I had seen >other get. DECUS until last year did still look a lot like the DECUS of 1980. Where it goes from here who knows. >I really see VMS as being downsized to the level of Tandem when each customer >is a well known entity and when they have announcements to make, they go visit >those customers individually because there aren't that many. At least those >customers will get good service and other customers are getting the hint that >Compaq isn't interested in having them stay with VMS. > >That is the message I get. If that is not the message Compaq wants me to get, >it is up to Compaq to change its ways. Well said! ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:33:01 -0800 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva1.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp6.u.washington.edu 1017783183 101856 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva1.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10825 On 2 Apr 2002, Alan Greig wrote: > Helpfully Gordon Bell has made available DEC's suicide note on his Microsoft web > site at > http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/VAX%20Strategy%20c1979.pdf Funniest comment in the whole document: "VMS and TOPS 20 have roughly the same functionality." VMS never did match the functionality of TOPS-20. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 03 Apr 02 08:54:21 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYIX/oytOK0M08JeUkz2EgnvoIsidaTJZyk97hw5YYmamKZgQJ71OCc X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Apr 2002 11:16:09 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-97 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10827 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: >On 2 Apr 2002, Alan Greig wrote: >> Helpfully Gordon Bell has made available DEC's suicide note on his Microsoft web >> site at >> http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/VAX%20Strategy%20c1979.pdf > >Funniest comment in the whole document: > >"VMS and TOPS 20 have roughly the same functionality." > >VMS never did match the functionality of TOPS-20. Bell never understood the importance of software. He spent a lot of time getting rid of the upper level management who did. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Fred Kleinsorge" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 41 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Message-ID: <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:47:10 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.32.248.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@Compaq.com X-Trace: news.cpqcorp.net 1017849218 16.32.248.182 (Wed, 03 Apr 2002 07:53:38 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 07:53:38 PST Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!news5.newsgroups.com!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!news.he.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.compaq.com!news.cpqcorp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10829 zczc Arrrrrgh!!!n Whoever (Alan) the h*ll keeps writing these d*mned troll messages... PLEASE STOP IT! PLEASE STOP NOW! Do we HAVE to keep getting into these idiotic rehashing of hurt feelings of TOPS-20 users from 20 years ago? Now we'll have 300 replies complaining about the lack of command completion. The original message in this topic was STUPID enough. What exactly was the need to spam alt.sys.pdp10? STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP nnnn Mark Crispin wrote in message ... >On 2 Apr 2002, Alan Greig wrote: >> Helpfully Gordon Bell has made available DEC's suicide note on his Microsoft web >> site at >> http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/VAX%20Strategy%20c1979.pdf > >Funniest comment in the whole document: > >"VMS and TOPS 20 have roughly the same functionality." > >VMS never did match the functionality of TOPS-20. > >-- Mark -- > >http://staff.washington.edu/mrc >Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. > ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 36 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 10:10:13 CST X-Trace: sv3-IL000E7dbaLxgwltfRHM4vObhP35Rk7QJNPB19DVAK12W8MwW842A/prM5lc27WHfvET5bzurRRnSkP!JYsVI90OK2fyce1VCOuYUtubeuxiJxxNBLw4nKjasNiMch5J8GvVEtHn53oyMG4dGfmPowaA049I!zwgLmCpkU2Yb+z9yQpoV5A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:10:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!64.245.249.27.MISMATCH!jfk3-feed1.news.algx.net!dca6-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10833 "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote in message news:6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net... > zczc > > Arrrrrgh!!!n Whoever (Alan) the h*ll keeps writing these d*mned troll > messages... > > > PLEASE STOP IT! PLEASE STOP NOW! > > > Do we HAVE to keep getting into these idiotic rehashing of hurt feelings of > TOPS-20 users from 20 years ago? Not if people want to keep their eyes tightly shut while similar things happen again, I suppose. You seem doggedly determined to let history repeat itself by ignoring both past precedent and present evidence, but others may be more willing to learn. Now we'll have 300 replies complaining > about the lack of command completion. > > The original message in this topic was STUPID enough. What exactly was the > need to spam alt.sys.pdp10? SPAM is in the eyes of the beholder. If you're not a devotee of alt.sys.pdp10, it's not clear you have any basis for complaint about someone who is such a participant having included them. - bill ###### From: "Fred Kleinsorge" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 62 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Message-ID: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:28:45 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.32.248.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@Compaq.com X-Trace: news.cpqcorp.net 1017851715 16.32.248.182 (Wed, 03 Apr 2002 08:35:15 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 08:35:15 PST Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!news5.newsgroups.com!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!news-xfer.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.compaq.com!news.cpqcorp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10830 Come on. The original mail was blatent BS ("DEC's suicide note" - get a life and stop re-writing history) designed purely to create yet-another-one-of-these-useless-threads. Not a single one of these inane dissertations that were spammed across groups that included alt.sys.pdp10 had any other objective than to waste peoples time, and continue some 20 year old argument that isn't really even interesting anymore, no matter how many peoples feelings were hurt that there pet architecture was tubed. But let me assume that there was an intent to illuminate or teach us something... To address the stupidity in the base note - if killing Alpha leads to the same results that killing the DECsystem-20 did -- then lets all cheer. Technical rants and lost souls aside - the VAX/VMS era was the most successful time in the history of Digital Equipment. Now to add this thread to my killfile. Bill Todd wrote in message ... > >"Fred Kleinsorge" wrote in message >news:6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net... >> zczc >> >> Arrrrrgh!!!n Whoever (Alan) the h*ll keeps writing these d*mned troll >> messages... >> >> >> PLEASE STOP IT! PLEASE STOP NOW! >> >> >> Do we HAVE to keep getting into these idiotic rehashing of hurt feelings >of >> TOPS-20 users from 20 years ago? > >Not if people want to keep their eyes tightly shut while similar things >happen again, I suppose. You seem doggedly determined to let history repeat >itself by ignoring both past precedent and present evidence, but others may >be more willing to learn. > > Now we'll have 300 replies complaining >> about the lack of command completion. >> >> The original message in this topic was STUPID enough. What exactly was >the >> need to spam alt.sys.pdp10? > >SPAM is in the eyes of the beholder. If you're not a devotee of >alt.sys.pdp10, it's not clear you have any basis for complaint about someone >who is such a participant having included them. > >- bill > > > ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 38 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 11:16:24 CST X-Trace: sv3-Bo3LHNy1XG2/LmQq92vHooPSHCENNoccK3m3kjh37B4hgWw/xtHo+WglpTw0nru6Amv4G5Z7jnjty6c!vn3UEu5HlsLR6hsBAAZ1/zx+tsdalPzkfsQomzBicC3Xe9m85v+JLQYumH5EysRrNjSvQ1hSTPeB!5GR83xQnKxOCGjXvDEBrPWo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:16:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!news-xfer.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!news-west.rr.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10826 "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote in message news:7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net... > Come on. The original mail was blatent BS ("DEC's suicide note" - get a > life and stop re-writing history) designed purely to create > yet-another-one-of-these-useless-threads. I'm not sure what 'original mail' you're referring to: the original post on the topic in the subject line was mine, and said nothing about "DEC's suicide note" or anything like it. ... > But let me assume that there was an intent to illuminate or teach us > something... To address the stupidity in the base note - if killing Alpha > leads to the same results that killing the DECsystem-20 did -- then lets all > cheer. Technical rants and lost souls aside - the VAX/VMS era was the most > successful time in the history of Digital Equipment. You're comparing apples and oranges. The VAX/VMS era started in 1978, while the 36-bit line was declared dying in 1983 IIRC. And as I was there for the period 1976 - 1987, I can assure you that DEC's decline *did* begin around the latter date (reasonable arguments could place it a bit earlier or later, but not much), even though DEC's financial decline lagged the internal upper-level management rot by several years. > > > Now to add this thread to my killfile. Which will likely improve its quality. - bill ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:27:33 -0800 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva0.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp6.u.washington.edu 1017854856 32892 (None) 140.142.17.39 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva0.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10828 I wonder why Fred Kleinsorge is so upset. Perhaps it's because he has to dust off his resume, what with his impending job loss once HP abolishes the last pathethic remnants of Digital. He's now discovering that nobody wants to hire anyone a VMS developer. It's interesting how he labels a period in which customers abandoned Digital en masse as "the most successful time in the history of Digital Equipment." Successful time? I can't think of a more egregious failure. Digital went from being the #2 computer company to extinction. Digital totally missed the personal computer revolution, and its feeble attempts to have PC products were the joke of the industry. Digital's terminal status was already obvious in 1988, a mere 5 years after the 10/20 was canned. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Thu, 04 Apr 02 09:28:00 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb0qVwECyujP9niGELExR+v24lD8e37jt4pOsu0HEB2eDWYZaAfbFxN X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2002 11:49:57 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-73 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10859 In article <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote: >zczc > >Arrrrrgh!!!n Whoever (Alan) the h*ll keeps writing these d*mned troll >messages... > > >PLEASE STOP IT! PLEASE STOP NOW! > > >Do we HAVE to keep getting into these idiotic rehashing of hurt feelings of >TOPS-20 users from 20 years ago? Now we'll have 300 replies complaining >about the lack of command completion. > >The original message in this topic was STUPID enough. What exactly was the >need to spam alt.sys.pdp10? > >STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP Since you're in ZKO you might read it and _LEARN_!!!! Take a look at the problems the PDP10 group has had w.r.t. bits and info lost, and work on closing the window. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Thu, 04 Apr 02 09:37:26 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVavPEF40+N4C7l+UqN6TuwiUjg83jGlVVbtfry8osytPgrihkAm4XUP X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2002 11:59:24 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-73 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10861 In article , "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote: >Mark Crispin wrote in message ... >>On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, JF Mezei wrote: >>> Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >>> > I'm just tired of 20 year old DS20 complaints. VAX/VMS propelled us to >#2, >>> > not the 10/20. >>> Ironic that deemphasizing VMS has resulted in Digital going from #2 down >to oblivion. >> >>So did the public attitudes of Digital employees, such as Fred >>Kleinsorge's postings. >> > >Get a life. I didn't do anything. I'm sorry you are still pissed a couple >decades later. You have made it clear that VAX/VMS was the proximate cause >of the death of TOPS-20 - and thus have no interest or positive opinions >about VMS. If there was *anything* I could say that would cause you to buy >a VMS system. I'd... well. whatever. The simple truth is, regardless of >the reasons for killing the DEC-20, it was meaningless to the eventual >success and subsequent failure of DEC. DEC grew to #2 on the strength of >VAX/VMS, and then imploded for many reasons, each of which can create it's >own debate. But DEC was growing so fast on the strength of VAX/VMS, that >the DEC-20 became irrelevant. You should take those rose colored glasses off. Who do you think bought those VAX/VMS systems? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Thu, 04 Apr 02 09:47:29 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbXkYSmrS4uGcsNXk6+YWEsY3RwRxY8m+/VQ7QNRidViDHJ2PM/5bz5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2002 12:09:27 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-73 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10866 In article , "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote: >JF Mezei wrote in message <3CAB74BE.6FC24F45@videotron.ca>... >>Mark Crispin wrote: >>> > Ironic that deemphasizing VMS has resulted in Digital going from #2 >down to oblivion. >>> >>> So did the public attitudes of Digital employees, such as Fred >>> Kleinsorge's postings. >> >>For as much as Mr Kleinsorge hates me, I do not think that he can be made >>responsible for VMS's demise. >> > >I don't hate you. I'm annoyed that with you and a few others there is no >room for anything positive. > >>Sure, we may have liked to see the VMS engineers mount an internal revolt >and >>chain themselves to cover Curly's parking spot and make as much noise as >>possible to outline the stupidity of Compaq squandering Alpha and VMS. But >if >>these guys are told not to worry and that everything is being taken care >of, >>then the motivation to risk your job by rebelling against the corporation >just >>isn't there. >> > >If chaining myself to a CEO's leg would make any difference, I would have. >The only leverage VMS has is that A) it is profitable, and B) it sells >Alphas and eventually IA64s. Yes. However, customers who know how to read the tea leaves are switching to a product line that they know will continue. And none of that money is going to Compaq's VMS coffers. You're losing your core customers. When you lose university customers, you're not only losing today's revenue but the next 50 year's revenue because the kiddies are learning on your competitor's soft/hardware platforms. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Fred Kleinsorge" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 34 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:52:00 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.32.248.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@Compaq.com X-Trace: news.cpqcorp.net 1017863907 16.32.248.182 (Wed, 03 Apr 2002 11:58:27 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 11:58:27 PST Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.compaq.com!news.cpqcorp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10875 I'm just tired of 20 year old DS20 complaints. VAX/VMS propelled us to #2, not the 10/20. Mark Crispin wrote in message ... >I wonder why Fred Kleinsorge is so upset. > >Perhaps it's because he has to dust off his resume, what with his >impending job loss once HP abolishes the last pathethic remnants of >Digital. He's now discovering that nobody wants to hire anyone a VMS >developer. > >It's interesting how he labels a period in which customers abandoned >Digital en masse as "the most successful time in the history of Digital >Equipment." > >Successful time? I can't think of a more egregious failure. Digital went >from being the #2 computer company to extinction. Digital totally missed >the personal computer revolution, and its feeble attempts to have PC >products were the joke of the industry. > >Digital's terminal status was already obvious in 1988, a mere 5 years >after the 10/20 was canned. > >-- Mark -- > >http://staff.washington.edu/mrc >Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. > > > ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 133 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:14:00 CST X-Trace: sv3-FsejJha/ZOXcB/hZOjO3K8lfiTTZATAPVYogbt75btvLAu/aoPAH7ncvXQuuVBc4J6Skk80fYKk289I!b2XY3+LD3NvlXmSxi0bzWzDwRg/olP2xj8xwx+wnxzkWVQ3zLpemktN0midG7NueRKRPVJuvdsmr!8815E7/ygqBi8UoglvuY6eXT X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:14:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!news5.newsgroups.com!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10839 "Bill Todd" wrote in message news:INGq8.101367$VJ1.8367111@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote in message > news:7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net... ... > > But let me assume that there was an intent to illuminate or teach us > > something... To address the stupidity in the base note - if killing Alpha > > leads to the same results that killing the DECsystem-20 did -- then lets > all > > cheer. Technical rants and lost souls aside - the VAX/VMS era was the > most > > successful time in the history of Digital Equipment. > > You're comparing apples and oranges. The VAX/VMS era started in 1978, while > the 36-bit line was declared dying in 1983 IIRC. And as I was there for the > period 1976 - 1987, I can assure you that DEC's decline *did* begin around > the latter date (reasonable arguments could place it a bit earlier or later, > but not much), even though DEC's financial decline lagged the internal > upper-level management rot by several years. On further reflection, my response above really doesn't adequately address the lessons that should be learned, starting indeed 20 years ago. So I'll expand a bit. To a very large degree, the decline of DEC (and now Compaq) can be tightly connected to several massive and massively-misguided attempts to drive users in directions the company felt were most convenient/cost-effective for it rather than letting customers tell the company what they wanted and acting accordingly. In other words, Maxim #1: Customers are like cats: trying to herd them is not usually effective, especially when they have other options to choose from. Maxim #2: Existing customers are birds in the hand; new customers are just someone's dream of the future which may or may not be accurate. Maxim #3: Therefore, providing customers with products they're eagerly lining up to buy at a decent profit to you is usually not only the safest but the most profitable course for a company to take. By all means also develop new products for the future, but don't start phasing out your existing ones until the new ones are at least equally acceptable - which leads to Maxim #4: Premature consolidation to reduce costs that don't need to be reduced (because sufficient demand still exists for the wider product range to return a good profit) is stupid, stupid, stupid: it pisses off your customers unnecessarily and with *no* guarantee of compensating return. And that's happened repeatedly at first DEC, now Compaq, and likely soon HP. Or perhaps one can put it more simply: acting for your own perceived convenience at the expense of your customers' doesn't work well unless you're a monopoly, since at least some of your competitors likely won't be that stupid. Cases in point: 1. The death of the 36-bit machines. Consolidating to VAX would certainly have been a reasonable strategy *if* VAX and the systems on it had been real replacements in the eyes of the customer base. But VAX did not have the performance to be such at the time Jupiter (and further 36-bit hardware development) was cancelled, and VMS never got all the features the 36-bit people wanted. As a result, DEC alienated a whole lot of customers in the exact high-end market segment it wanted to push VAX into. Had it waited for VAX to become performance-competitive, not only would it have retained the business *and* affection of those customers, but VMS would quite likely have had more impetus to incorporate the features those customers found useful (given the continuing internal competition). The degree of that alienation is still very evident today, and *that* itself is significant. One could also suggest that the 11 had a lot more life left in it than DEC took advantage of, but while that too may have been a mistake it was a far less dramatic one. 2. The one case DEC *did* handle half-decently was the transition from VAX to Alpha. But that transition was *not* driven by consolidation desires but rather by engineering considerations: RISC seemed a better bet for future performance advances than CISC (over a dozen years later the success of IA32 may call that assessment into some question, but it certainly seemed true then - and one should not forget that Intel has likely put an order of magnitude more money into IA32 development than DEC put into Alpha), and 32 bits of address space was clearly not going to be sufficient forever in the mid-range and up. 3. The infamous 'affinity' program. Again, an attempt to consolidate - this time to a 'commodity' OS - and, again, a problem more because it was a (drastically) premature attempt at replacement (and replacement of a highly-profitable platform with a far-less-profitable one) rather than a simple attempt to expand in new directions. Customers weren't pleased, and, correctly fearing for VMS's owner's commitment, many left. 4. The cancellation of NT on Alpha. While the profitability may have been marginal, the potential of having Alpha as the initial platform for Win64 was major. Instead, Compaq just elected to piss off another bunch of customers in the hope that it *might* save a few bucks (if the adverse customer reaction to the decision didn't cost far more than the savings, and leaving aside the upside potential of Win64 on Alpha). 5. The death-notice for Alpha itself - *long* before Itanic was even usable by VMS or Tru64, let alone had proven a decent replacement. Consolidation (and treachery, in terms of solemn and repeated commitments summarily broken) par excellence, but to an inferior platform - and, as usual, without any apparent concern about how the existing customer base felt about it. 6. The decision not to port Tru64 to Itanic after all, despite both having 'committed' to when the Alphacide was announced *and* having major aspects of the port already done (back when it was first planned). Given that the Tru64 base is now supposedly comparable to VMS's, that should give people here pause as well. Those are just the biggies that come to mind off hand. Feel free to add more. Call it insensitivity to customer wishes. Call it excessive zeal for cost-containment. Call it disasterous over-confidence in management's abilities to control and/or predict markets. Call it monumental incompetence. Call it whatever you want, but it's a real pattern. And it started with the 36-bit material you seem still to refuse to learn from. - bill ###### Message-ID: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> From: JF Mezei X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:25:43 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.202.148.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@videotron.ca X-Trace: weber.videotron.net 1017865121 24.202.148.20 (Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:18:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:18:41 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!torn!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!weber.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10851 Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > > I'm just tired of 20 year old DS20 complaints. VAX/VMS propelled us to #2, > not the 10/20. As much as Fred is going to hate it, I fully agree with the above. Ironic that deemphasizing VMS has resulted in Digital going from #2 down to oblivion. ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:55:42 -0800 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva0.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp6.u.washington.edu 1017867344 93432 (None) 140.142.17.40 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva0.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10870 On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, JF Mezei wrote: > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > > I'm just tired of 20 year old DS20 complaints. VAX/VMS propelled us to #2, > > not the 10/20. > Ironic that deemphasizing VMS has resulted in Digital going from #2 down to oblivion. So did the public attitudes of Digital employees, such as Fred Kleinsorge's postings. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: "Fred Kleinsorge" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 37 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:28:05 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.32.248.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@Compaq.com X-Trace: news.cpqcorp.net 1017869672 16.32.248.182 (Wed, 03 Apr 2002 13:34:32 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 13:34:32 PST Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.compaq.com!news.cpqcorp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10880 Mark Crispin wrote in message ... >On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, JF Mezei wrote: >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >> > I'm just tired of 20 year old DS20 complaints. VAX/VMS propelled us to #2, >> > not the 10/20. >> Ironic that deemphasizing VMS has resulted in Digital going from #2 down to oblivion. > >So did the public attitudes of Digital employees, such as Fred >Kleinsorge's postings. > Get a life. I didn't do anything. I'm sorry you are still pissed a couple decades later. You have made it clear that VAX/VMS was the proximate cause of the death of TOPS-20 - and thus have no interest or positive opinions about VMS. If there was *anything* I could say that would cause you to buy a VMS system. I'd... well. whatever. The simple truth is, regardless of the reasons for killing the DEC-20, it was meaningless to the eventual success and subsequent failure of DEC. DEC grew to #2 on the strength of VAX/VMS, and then imploded for many reasons, each of which can create it's own debate. But DEC was growing so fast on the strength of VAX/VMS, that the DEC-20 became irrelevant. If Tru64 or Windows had been propelling DEC or Compaq with the same growth and profitability as VAX/VMS drove DEC - then VMS would have long ago ceased to have any relevance, and should have been killed just like TOPS-20 regardless of any of it's technical advantages. Some would argue that it doesn't have any relevance any more - but I believe that it's continued existance, and the port to IA64 proves that it still does have some - even if that does not mean that it will be the flagship product of the company. Time will tell. ###### Message-ID: <3CAB74BE.6FC24F45@videotron.ca> From: JF Mezei X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:32:11 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.202.148.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@videotron.ca X-Trace: weber.videotron.net 1017869106 24.202.148.20 (Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:25:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:25:06 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!weber.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10852 Mark Crispin wrote: > > Ironic that deemphasizing VMS has resulted in Digital going from #2 down to oblivion. > > So did the public attitudes of Digital employees, such as Fred > Kleinsorge's postings. For as much as Mr Kleinsorge hates me, I do not think that he can be made responsible for VMS's demise. Sure, we may have liked to see the VMS engineers mount an internal revolt and chain themselves to cover Curly's parking spot and make as much noise as possible to outline the stupidity of Compaq squandering Alpha and VMS. But if these guys are told not to worry and that everything is being taken care of, then the motivation to risk your job by rebelling against the corporation just isn't there. Also remember that those employees are only told about the WINs, not about the LOSSES. They may not even be aware of cases when Compaq sales critters are pitching Windows to existing VMS sites. ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:36:35 -0800 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva0.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp6.u.washington.edu 1017869797 35462 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva0.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10874 On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Bill Todd wrote: > Those are just the biggies that come to mind off hand. Feel free to add > more. 7. Increasingly lackadasical approach to software quality. ADV FS on Tru64 being an all-too-painful example. Ever discover what happens to the reliability of your ADVFS filesystem once you cross a particular threshold in size? -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: "Fred Kleinsorge" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB74BE.6FC24F45@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 63 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:40:22 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.32.248.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@Compaq.com X-Trace: news.cpqcorp.net 1017870409 16.32.248.182 (Wed, 03 Apr 2002 13:46:49 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 13:46:49 PST Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.compaq.com!news.cpqcorp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10878 JF Mezei wrote in message <3CAB74BE.6FC24F45@videotron.ca>... >Mark Crispin wrote: >> > Ironic that deemphasizing VMS has resulted in Digital going from #2 down to oblivion. >> >> So did the public attitudes of Digital employees, such as Fred >> Kleinsorge's postings. > >For as much as Mr Kleinsorge hates me, I do not think that he can be made >responsible for VMS's demise. > I don't hate you. I'm annoyed that with you and a few others there is no room for anything positive. >Sure, we may have liked to see the VMS engineers mount an internal revolt and >chain themselves to cover Curly's parking spot and make as much noise as >possible to outline the stupidity of Compaq squandering Alpha and VMS. But if >these guys are told not to worry and that everything is being taken care of, >then the motivation to risk your job by rebelling against the corporation just >isn't there. > If chaining myself to a CEO's leg would make any difference, I would have. The only leverage VMS has is that A) it is profitable, and B) it sells Alphas and eventually IA64s. Anything that is done to make either of these significantly less true, reduces any future leverage VMS might have to resume the comeback that we had been making pre-Q4 (i.e. when the hits of Compaq announcements, 9/11 and the general economic decline all hit everyone). We have to get past the Alpha decision, and the HP merger. The ONLY thing I can do to try and assure a future for VMS is to make sure that I and the people working for and with me execute to the IPF port roadmap, and TRY to assure people as best I can to DON'T PANIC that things will be OK. EV7 will be FANTASTIC. And when EV7 finally grows long in the tooth, we will be shipping IA64 systems - some perhaps not as fast, but I'll wager a lot cheaper. >Also remember that those employees are only told about the WINs, not about the >LOSSES. They may not even be aware of cases when Compaq sales critters are >pitching Windows to existing VMS sites. Of course we aren't told when a salesman tries to sell Windows. How would we get that visibility? What we can see is that the VMS sales trends are in general following along lines that show a general downturn of the economy, and then a return to growth. Our large customers and ISV's seem to be OK with IA64. We seem to be getting new customers faster than we are losing old ones. BTW - we *do* see losses when it was a VMS account that was being worked by one of our VMS field specialists... which is also where we see most of our "win" data as well. ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:58:05 -0800 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB74BE.6FC24F45@videotron.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva0.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp6.u.washington.edu 1017871087 43394 (None) 140.142.17.39 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: <3CAB74BE.6FC24F45@videotron.ca> Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva0.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10872 On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, JF Mezei wrote: > Mark Crispin wrote: > > > Ironic that deemphasizing VMS has resulted in Digital going from #2 down to oblivion. > > So did the public attitudes of Digital employees, such as Fred > > Kleinsorge's postings. > For as much as Mr Kleinsorge hates me, I do not think that he can be made > responsible for VMS's demise. Not directly; but by calling customers "morons" in public he demonstrates remarkable indiscretion, particularly in doing so from a dec.com email address. Unfortunately, this same attitude problem was exhibited by Digital employees in the 1980s. At DECUS symposia at the time, Digital employees stated that "only poor programmers" need to edit files larger than 64K (Rainbow editor's 64K file size limit), need to be able to splice in a debugger on a process that got an execution fault, need something like CTRL/T to monitor the PC of a running process, need other networking than DECnet, etc. In other words, anyone who wanted something that Digital didn't deliver (and/or didn't want to deliver) was a "moron". One by one, the DEC employees who didn't think that way left Digital; they were made so thoroughly miserable that they couldn't stay. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:19:35 -0800 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva0.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp6.u.washington.edu 1017872377 7532 (None) 140.142.17.37 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva0.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10867 On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > >So did the public attitudes of Digital employees, such as Fred > >Kleinsorge's postings. > Get a life. I didn't do anything. Calling customers "morons" in public from a dec.com email address is certainly doing something. It demonstrates an attitude problem. > I'm sorry you are still pissed a couple > decades later. I'm not pissed. I'm thoroughly enjoying watching the demise of VMS and VMS bigots crying into their beer. > The simple truth is, regardless of > the reasons for killing the DEC-20, it was meaningless to the eventual > success and subsequent failure of DEC. DEC grew to #2 on the strength of > VAX/VMS I see that you are ignorant of history as well as being arrogant. DEC was a success, and had become #2, long before VMS existed. DEC was built on the success of the 8, the 10/20, and especially the 11. The 18-bit systems, culminating in the 15, played a part too in the early years; the other systems would not have happened if the 4, 7, and 9 had flopped, and the tiger team on the 15 was paying for itself. VMS was the beneficiary of DEC's earlier successes; but unlike the earlier systems VMS failed to build upon those successes. Yes, Digital sold many VAX/VMS systems after the demise of the 10/20 in 1983. But just 5 years later, it was clear to everybody that Digital was dying. Its products were widely perceived as overpriced and poor quality. Any number of organizations within Digital tried to save the company, but in the end to no avail because the underlying problem was never addressed. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### Message-ID: <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> From: JF Mezei X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:00:16 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.202.148.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@videotron.ca X-Trace: weber.videotron.net 1017874382 24.202.148.20 (Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:53:02 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:53:02 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!torn!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!weber.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10848 Mark Crispin wrote: > VAX/VMS systems after the demise of the 10/20 in 1983. But just 5 years > later, it was clear to everybody that Digital was dying. Its products > were widely perceived as overpriced and poor quality. Bet you that if DEC had kept the PDP-11, the PDP-11 would have remained overpriced and DEC would have ignored its new competitors the same way it did with VMS. It is ironic that DEC's success was based on making computing affordable compared to the big guys like IBM, but when someone else started to make their machines "more" affordable, DEC refused to foloow suit because it wanted to be like IBM. ###### Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 From: Doc Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:06:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.69.192.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.austin.rr.com 1017875206 66.69.192.64 (Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:06:46 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:06:46 CST Organization: Road Runner - Texas Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.algx.net!jfk3-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!cyclone.kc.rr.com!news.kc.rr.com!cyclone.austin.rr.com!typhoon.austin.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10887 On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:28:45 -0500, Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > yet-another-one-of-these-useless-threads. > > Not a single one of these inane dissertations that were spammed across > groups that included alt.sys.pdp10 had any other objective than to waste > peoples time, and continue some 20 year old argument that isn't really even > interesting anymore, no matter how many peoples feelings were hurt that > there pet architecture was tubed. As a completely distanced bystander, I have to interject here. In an earlier post you claimed that this "troll" would attract 300 posts. Whether or not the 20-year argument is *productive* may be in question, but you yourself have proved pretty conclusively that it's *interesting*. Doc ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:22:44 -0800 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva0.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp6.u.washington.edu 1017876168 25436 (None) 140.142.17.37 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!newsfeed.phoenix-ag.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva0.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10869 On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, JF Mezei wrote: > Bet you that if DEC had kept the PDP-11, the PDP-11 would have remained > overpriced and DEC would have ignored its new competitors the same way it did > with VMS. I wouldn't have wanted to take you up on that bet. I'd rather find some sucker who'd bet the other way! > It is ironic that DEC's success was based on making computing affordable > compared to the big guys like IBM, but when someone else started to make their > machines "more" affordable, DEC refused to foloow suit because it wanted to be > like IBM. Ironic yes, but also deeply sad. Also, it was not DEC that "refused to follow suit". It was Digital. To some of us, the difference is important! :-) -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 3 Apr 2002 23:44:41 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1017877481 56362 10.0.0.43 (3 Apr 2002 23:44:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Apr 2002 23:44:41 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10882 In article , Bill Todd wrote: >rather by engineering considerations: RISC seemed a better bet for future >performance advances than CISC (over a dozen years later the success of IA32 >may call that assessment into some question, but it certainly seemed true The 386 is not a classical CISC instruction set, and in fact there are many design decisions in the 386 that are shared with the classic RISC model... such as the load-store architecture (which makes a lot of high performance optimizations easier because you only have one stall to access memory per instruction... for most instructions), whereas the VAX is almost the archetype of a CISC, with its extremely regular and human- friendly instruction set that pretty much requires a just-in-time compiler in hardware to convert the complex VAX instructions into a set of easily pipelined and reordered load-store instructions. Back when the Alpha project was started it was not at all clear that this was possible without superhuman efforts... and it may well be argued that it's still not possible without superhuman efforts: it just became cost effective for intel and AMD to make that kind of effort. :-> -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CAB9683.511D08A3@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 19 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:54:57 CST X-Trace: sv3-HvGzA8FxxzB2z0srV4HANLQCinFFcYyN17lfyzbg+/D0ePNRTu710q8TRPj/8CYy3WTn3MQhW5nW9xb!rafdBO2141fsQ4PbetrjO8Ws0sVAqV2mZGU9IVDJ0EucTQm4D2OmP6p16K3FFVSwGN5beSotgRhC!gabq2OaF9w2cRo5W3BcyxQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:54:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10834 "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:3CAB9683.511D08A3@videotron.ca... > Mark Crispin wrote: > > Also, it was not DEC that "refused to follow suit". It was Digital. To > > some of us, the difference is important! :-) > > Disagree. Digital's downfall did begin during Ken O's reign. Palmer just > accelerated it. Not sure what you're trying to say above: the change to 'digital' occurred long before Palmer appeared, but did roughly coincide with the change in corporate attitude. So there's really nothing to disagree with Mark about here. - bill ###### Message-ID: <3CAB9683.511D08A3@videotron.ca> From: JF Mezei X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 6 Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:55:47 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.202.148.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@videotron.ca X-Trace: wagner.videotron.net 1017877749 24.202.148.20 (Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:49:09 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:49:09 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!freenix!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!wagner.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10850 Mark Crispin wrote: > Also, it was not DEC that "refused to follow suit". It was Digital. To > some of us, the difference is important! :-) Disagree. Digital's downfall did begin during Ken O's reign. Palmer just accelerated it. ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 35 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <6HMq8.217264$2q2.19251258@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:58:58 CST X-Trace: sv3-nykJLV+8UwjckEPEg9Q8kTcW5+p3ge7my+TfVEi6lXtB5hR+Gjms6wl3N3QxrhQ0k+jblHsLqPVKa1D!0DX+0W27FGQaTF0iikzIrOwYXWnfA+28qNEdEb8ADKh6GHmXx9flTX2ivl2Ngt4BFQ99hg87owdZ!FECyfNohfuHCi04HPycENRnQ X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:58:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10838 "Peter da Silva" wrote in message news:a8g459$1n1a$1@citadel.in.taronga.com... > In article , > Bill Todd wrote: > >rather by engineering considerations: RISC seemed a better bet for future > >performance advances than CISC (over a dozen years later the success of IA32 > >may call that assessment into some question, but it certainly seemed true > > The 386 is not a classical CISC instruction set, and in fact there are > many design decisions in the 386 that are shared with the classic RISC > model... such as the load-store architecture (which makes a lot of high > performance optimizations easier because you only have one stall to > access memory per instruction... for most instructions), whereas the VAX > is almost the archetype of a CISC, with its extremely regular and human- > friendly instruction set that pretty much requires a just-in-time compiler > in hardware to convert the complex VAX instructions into a set of easily > pipelined and reordered load-store instructions. > > Back when the Alpha project was started it was not at all clear that this > was possible without superhuman efforts... and it may well be argued that > it's still not possible without superhuman efforts: it just became cost > effective for intel and AMD to make that kind of effort. :-> Without having gone into the detail you provided two paragraphs above, I though your last paragraph above was pretty much what I'd said (though you snipped part of it). - bill ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 40 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:08:11 CST X-Trace: sv3-j6ogucfS5vhOAkgAeiIHxmCpze31LquZGfmu8eEXKPpzaMC5S8udLsOrQcs/HZiGgB0NZR7Qi1yT+QK!aA0bSoLS1Kw+x4WaIugzdoB8Vv+jia4vrl3wCJrGhg4Xf/7s4a8XHLGXeVVDG3XIKHKxCC0rSAWG!giJ1Eq8CycNf6A/zr3Aiq1Hw X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:08:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10841 "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca... > Mark Crispin wrote: > > VAX/VMS systems after the demise of the 10/20 in 1983. But just 5 years > > later, it was clear to everybody that Digital was dying. Its products > > were widely perceived as overpriced and poor quality. > > > Bet you that if DEC had kept the PDP-11, the PDP-11 would have remained > overpriced and DEC would have ignored its new competitors the same way it did > with VMS. By the mid-'80s the 11 was no longer over-priced: you could buy a ('Micro-11'?) RT or RSX or RSTS F11 (even J11?) -based system for under $10K, and given the superiority in hardware and software to a PC this wasn't unreasonable (remember, a decent PC cost around $3K back then). It would be a while yet before DEC learned how to make PC-comparable hardware at PC-comparable prices (the Professional workstations were sort of betwixt and between), but that's a different issue. > > It is ironic that DEC's success was based on making computing affordable > compared to the big guys like IBM, but when someone else started to make their > machines "more" affordable, DEC refused to foloow suit because it wanted to be > like IBM. DEC really did try, first with the PC efforts (which admittedly it attempted to differentiate such that they wouldn't compete with higher-margin 'real' 11s) and then with the 'real' 11. But it hadn't yet learned how to produce low-quality products at commodity prices (as its early efforts to produce PC-compatibles demonstrated as well). - bill ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 19 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:11:35 CST X-Trace: sv3-set/YzHOYfAaj695dRFlpQT8+oOzYphg5cc+XtVLKJQPx1rHcAwmWuaTg16vQwi7E9SQgyxGbD0lXb0!yA9657aSGjyCNheoqcSnrt9od26Shx4JnS95cXokN7LkuFYBmfRgu5yhZfWza65zVHJVRR0Z3H7V!vpb7JHEFmGGtrkyFhNz//rg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:11:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10836 "Mark Crispin" wrote in message news:Pine.LNX.4.50.0204031405020.2560-100000@shiva0.cac.washington.edu... ... > DEC was a success, and had become #2, long before VMS existed. To forestall some obvious rejoinders: The point at which I remember DEC becoming '#2' was when it passed HP in total revenue, some time in the early '80s. Of course, HP had major revenue from non-computer sources, so DEC arguably became the #2 *computer* manufacturer at some earlier date. - bill ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 4 Apr 2002 00:42:52 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <6HMq8.217264$2q2.19251258@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1017880972 58229 10.0.0.43 (4 Apr 2002 00:42:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2002 00:42:52 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10888 In article <6HMq8.217264$2q2.19251258@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, Bill Todd wrote: >Without having gone into the detail you provided two paragraphs above, I >though your last paragraph above was pretty much what I'd said (though you >snipped part of it). I'm just addressing the myth that "because intel made the 386 run fast anyone can make anything run fast". There's two problems with that: the one I noted in my second paragraph and you had commented on, that Intel isn't "anyone"; and the more important part that people still don't seem to understand, which is that for all its obvious and horrid flaws the x86 architecture is better designed to accept '90s-era performance enhancements than any classic CISC like the VAX or 68000. Which is why Apple isn't shipping iMacs with 680x0s inside. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: Ben Franchuk Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:17:09 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 44 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!isdnet!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10849 Bill Todd wrote: > > "JF Mezei" wrote in message > news:3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca... > > Mark Crispin wrote: > > > VAX/VMS systems after the demise of the 10/20 in 1983. But just 5 years > > > later, it was clear to everybody that Digital was dying. Its products > > > were widely perceived as overpriced and poor quality. > > > > > > Bet you that if DEC had kept the PDP-11, the PDP-11 would have remained > > overpriced and DEC would have ignored its new competitors the same way it > did > > with VMS. > > By the mid-'80s the 11 was no longer over-priced: you could buy a > ('Micro-11'?) RT or RSX or RSTS F11 (even J11?) -based system for under > $10K, and given the superiority in hardware and software to a PC this wasn't > unreasonable (remember, a decent PC cost around $3K back then). It would be > a while yet before DEC learned how to make PC-comparable hardware at > PC-comparable prices (the Professional workstations were sort of betwixt and > between), but that's a different issue. > > > > > It is ironic that DEC's success was based on making computing affordable > > compared to the big guys like IBM, but when someone else started to make > their > > machines "more" affordable, DEC refused to foloow suit because it wanted > to be > > like IBM. > > DEC really did try, first with the PC efforts (which admittedly it attempted > to differentiate such that they wouldn't compete with higher-margin 'real' > 11s) and then with the 'real' 11. But it hadn't yet learned how to produce > low-quality products at commodity prices (as its early efforts to produce > PC-compatibles demonstrated as well). What stands out to me was the fact the fact that DEC's PC did not come a floppy disk format program. You had to Buy DEC's pre-formated disks. The weird floppy too I bet cost lots of $$$. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html ###### Message-ID: <3CABB1EA.A5FA11F6@videotron.ca> From: JF Mezei X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <6HMq8.217264$2q2.19251258@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 8 Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:52:51 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.202.148.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@videotron.ca X-Trace: wagner.videotron.net 1017884764 24.202.148.20 (Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:46:04 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:46:04 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!wagner.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10853 Peter da Silva wrote: > to understand, which is that for all its obvious and horrid flaws the x86 > architecture is better designed to accept '90s-era performance enhancements > than any classic CISC like the VAX or 68000. In your opinion, how much longer can the 8086 move forwards and keep respectable performance ? Can its performance increase at about the same rate as the IA64 ? ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 4 Apr 2002 02:37:01 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <6HMq8.217264$2q2.19251258@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3CABB1EA.A5FA11F6@videotron.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1017887821 61936 10.0.0.43 (4 Apr 2002 02:37:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2002 02:37:01 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10886 In article <3CABB1EA.A5FA11F6@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei wrote: >In your opinion, how much longer can the 8086 move forwards and keep >respectable performance ? As long as Intel wants it to. Especially since they're apparently going to be using similar implementation techniques in the IA64 to convert its baroque instruction set to something EV-8-ish, the exposed ISA of Intel CPUs (possibly excluding Xscale) seems likely to become more or less irrelevant. But, basically, I see the only end to the x86 at this point a political and marketing choice by Intel. Like CHomPaq and the Alpha. >Can its performance increase at about the same rate as the IA64 ? I'd give reasonable odds that it'll increase faster. Because that's where the money is. Well, once the IA64 gets past the "awful to only kinda sucking" stage. One intriguing endgame is a common 64-bit core using EV-8 technology and an internal EV-8-oid instruction set, with a front end that converts IA32 or x86-64 or IA64 into a common opcode stream for the CPU. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: Alan Greig Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 09:34:16 +0100 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 37 Message-ID: <2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com> References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-653.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10892 On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:52:00 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote: >I'm just tired of 20 year old DS20 complaints. VAX/VMS propelled us to #2, >not the 10/20. As I'm a former TOPS-20 system manager and a current VMS one I'm not sure why you feel more qualified to tell me I'm wrong. In 1980 virtually every self respecting computer science school ran some flavour of ten or twenty and these systems were extremely popular. Maybe half of the UK TOPS-10/20 sites moved to VAX/VMS and the rest were lost mainly to Unix. Over the years the remainder have almost all drifted away to non Digital/Compaq systems. How the hell can you say that the period where DEC went from around number one in education to near the bottom of the pile was the most successful? Unlike some I like what VMS grew into. And yes I do still miss command recognition and completion but why shouldn't I? And why should I have to listen to you criticize me, a customer, for still asking for it.? DCL is a functional command processor. But PCL/MIC enhanced EXEC was functional and *sexy*. I don't think anyone would ever call DCL sexy. DEC did little to smooth a TOPS-20 > VMS migration. Bell's note indicates he seemed to think making COBOL,, FORTRAN and DBMS compatible was enough.. If you didn't believe there was far more to an OS than this you wouldn't likely be working in VMS engineering today. Go have a look at an Arpanet HOSTS.TXT file from 1980 and look at the domination of DEC machines. Something went wrong and there were many, many factors, but to dismiss the reasoning put forward by PDP-10 admins of the time who watched it all at close quarters, just like that, puts you in a bad light in my view. "VMS Systems are not normally connected to the Internet" - Digital UCX V1 documentation. -- Alan ###### From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:30:04 +0200 Organization: MediaSec Technologies GmbH Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3CAC2B2C.C06FBF07@mediasec.de> References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mediasec.de (212.28.225.10) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1017916202 29740915 212.28.225.10 (16 [125976]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.vmunix.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!mediasec.DE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10845 > You're comparing apples and oranges. The VAX/VMS era started in 1978, while > the 36-bit line was declared dying in 1983 IIRC. And as I was there for the > period 1976 - 1987, I can assure you that DEC's decline *did* begin around > the latter date (reasonable arguments could place it a bit earlier or later, > but not much), even though DEC's financial decline lagged the internal > upper-level management rot by several years. "latter date" meaning 1987? I found most interesting in the memo that in early 1979, it expected to have by early 1982 an LSI (chip technology)-based VAX system board at under a thousand bucks. That never happened, and later on the smaller systems were overpriced compared to the competition. Jan ###### From: "Fred Kleinsorge" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 29 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:01:47 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.32.248.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@Compaq.com X-Trace: news.cpqcorp.net 1017929291 16.32.248.182 (Thu, 04 Apr 2002 06:08:11 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 06:08:11 PST Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.compaq.com!news.cpqcorp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10877 Doc wrote in message ... >On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:28:45 -0500, Fred Kleinsorge > wrote: >> yet-another-one-of-these-useless-threads. >> >> Not a single one of these inane dissertations that were spammed across >> groups that included alt.sys.pdp10 had any other objective than to waste >> peoples time, and continue some 20 year old argument that isn't really even >> interesting anymore, no matter how many peoples feelings were hurt that >> there pet architecture was tubed. > > As a completely distanced bystander, I have to interject here. In an >earlier post you claimed that this "troll" would attract 300 posts. >Whether or not the 20-year argument is *productive* may be in question, >but you yourself have proved pretty conclusively that it's >*interesting*. It is like debating religion or politics. It can be interesting, but seldom satisfying, and nobody ever changes their minds. It just wastes bandwidth. If at *least* they would use "OT" in the title so it would be automatically killed by my normal filter. ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAC2B2C.C06FBF07@mediasec.de> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 34 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 10:46:47 CST X-Trace: sv3-COWZWOv0USpVirMQJvHHJKDsmEiZHfZx1/4ZnpwmUKlEGtoD/Py3oKwMXpQ9Fa79wD13qtprpjwdbPu!/H8e+HR76Pwy723d2fU5r7Gz1sW8nH+XZgJF4JTEEuwEBbr9zf1Hbthsu1AXHXgujfg7zBbNZeQK!WLKhTXhwxgkSQ5f/LC8LPBA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 16:46:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10835 "Jan C. Vorbrüggen" wrote in message news:3CAC2B2C.C06FBF07@mediasec.de... > > You're comparing apples and oranges. The VAX/VMS era started in 1978, while > > the 36-bit line was declared dying in 1983 IIRC. And as I was there for the > > period 1976 - 1987, I can assure you that DEC's decline *did* begin around > > the latter date (reasonable arguments could place it a bit earlier or later, > > but not much), even though DEC's financial decline lagged the internal > > upper-level management rot by several years. > > "latter date" meaning 1987? Sorry for the ambiguous antecedent: the 'latter date' referred to was 1983. By 1987, the writing was on the wall for the rest of the world to see - as evidenced by the fact that, unlike most of the rest of the market, the DEC stock price never came close to recovering from the October '87 crash. - bill > > I found most interesting in the memo that in early 1979, it expected to have > by early 1982 an LSI (chip technology)-based VAX system board at under a > thousand bucks. That never happened, and later on the smaller systems were > overpriced compared to the competition. > > Jan > ###### Date: 4 Apr 2002 19:16:45 -0000 Message-ID: <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> From: Doc.Cypher Author-Supplied-Address: doc_cypher redneck gacracker org Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Encryption: PGP-RSA/PGP-Signed, Key-ID=0x0868B3893 X-To-Post-Anon: http://www.eskimo.com/~turing/remailer/FAQ/ X-To-Allow-Reply: http://web.mit.edu/bin/finger?help@nym.alias.net X-Nym-Public-Key: http://web.mit.edu/bin/finger?doc_cypher@nym.alias.net X-Website: http://vmsbox.cjb.net Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> Administrative-Comment: Send comments to Mail-To-News-Contact: abuse@dizum.com Organization: mail2news@dizum.com Lines: 61 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.dizum.com!sewer-output!mail2news-x3!mail2news-x2!mail2news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10900 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 04 Apr 02, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >You're losing your core customers. When you lose university >customers, you're not only losing today's revenue but the next >50 year's revenue because the kiddies are learning on your >competitor's soft/hardware platforms. To be honest, I've lost count of the number of times this point has been put across, that is, that without recent graduates with VMS experience there will be nobody with a favourable attitude towards the OS in a decision-making position in 10-20 years. As I run a shell service on VMS I get a fair cross-section of the more computer-savvy public applying for accounts. More than half assume that VMS is some obscure UN*X variant and think DCL is some proprietary UN*X shell. That just shows what sort of market awareness we're dealing with. To say there is no problem is like refusing to accept you're in a desert because you've got your head buried in the sand. Compaq sure as hell haven't addressed this problem, and HP don't seem likely to when they haven't even mentioned VMS during all the merger hulabaloo. As a link to it was posted I re-read the open letter to Curly, I find no fault with it and think Bill is right, these were issues that should have been handled by the CEO. That they weren't speaks volumes to me about the senior management attitude towards VMS. Words from obviously pro-VMS people like Fred can't change this, and I for one hope that whatever the outcome of the merger the owners of VMS get a serious management shakeup in the near future. Anyway, all this negativity gets to people, myself included. To be honest, I sometimes wonder why I even bother to continue reading the c.o.v. The technical posts that are relevant to me are few and far between, and the political ruminations are predominantly negative. On days where there are over a hundred posts and I have 1/2 hour to read the group I start to wonder why I bother. I don't believe VMS is dead yet, but the nay-sayers are determined to portray it as such, and the yea-sayers have this infurating belief that there is no serious problem. Because of this I find it difficult to see either side as credible. If someone can find the positive/negative switch for the newsgroup please toggle it to another position. Doc. - -- The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it. ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBPKuJcsriC3SGiziTAQE3Jgf/eFaOkjWL+VLC7d5NFAk67giZ1zSdIsYJ EP5i4Q31AFMNK5vMOO55CKASyVL5BZDNzqbiy1tE1iR4vPO9IqQxHDAq3SB1SiG0 kFAbsJAMuljjV4Fq0iwP6orob8El0owktbw02La2CYTAJ9CREUYMOlNFClQjtAa3 K7c5W5iyX2mrmAkHbBAlCImtwsnJnyjAYPkrZvTvTPvTgfey5XgRbAB1PrKlc00D Pemm06JPC44yMy0HBvJRZw8vWeJXaM5AQjoGFt52oTbSPpru+puVofgZaLLcurUw z/M5yC7Jt0BzBsRoY1d+PIguS/T5Jj6svHz/9uPCmZE8J04kdt5Pkw== =42TX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Fri, 05 Apr 02 10:00:36 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaaiXaetzDZxrKrHEeaXrgsE3WuvC2VwzqaVgLg4z97pFgYohJ6k3Qk X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Apr 2002 12:22:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-75 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10914 In article <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org>, Doc.Cypher wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >On Thu, 04 Apr 02, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > >>You're losing your core customers. When you lose university >>customers, you're not only losing today's revenue but the next >>50 year's revenue because the kiddies are learning on your >>competitor's soft/hardware platforms. > >To be honest, I've lost count of the number of times this point has been >put across, that is, that without recent graduates with VMS experience >there will be nobody with a favourable attitude towards the OS in a >decision-making position in 10-20 years. We (TOPS-10) understood that point very well. We, too, had to fight a losing battle with a core management that did not understand any of it; their emphasis was on counting hardware sales. We never did figure out how to beat it in their heads that hardware without software that works well is just a very expensive boat anchor. > >As I run a shell service on VMS I get a fair cross-section of the more >computer-savvy public applying for accounts. More than half assume that VMS >is some obscure UN*X variant and think DCL is some proprietary UN*X shell. >That just shows what sort of market awareness we're dealing with. To say >there is no problem is like refusing to accept you're in a desert because >you've got your head buried in the sand. Compaq sure as hell haven't >addressed this problem, and HP don't seem likely to when they haven't even >mentioned VMS during all the merger hulabaloo. As a link to it was posted I >re-read the open letter to Curly, I find no fault with it and think Bill is >right, these were issues that should have been handled by the CEO. That >they weren't speaks volumes to me about the senior management attitude >towards VMS. Words from obviously pro-VMS people like Fred can't change >this, and I for one hope that whatever the outcome of the merger the owners >of VMS get a serious management shakeup in the near future. > >Anyway, all this negativity gets to people, myself included. To be honest, >I sometimes wonder why I even bother to continue reading the c.o.v. The >technical posts that are relevant to me are few and far between, and the >political ruminations are predominantly negative. On days where there are >over a hundred posts and I have 1/2 hour to read the group I start to >wonder why I bother. I don't believe VMS is dead yet, but the nay-sayers >are determined to portray it as such, and the yea-sayers have this >infurating belief that there is no serious problem. Because of this I find >it difficult to see either side as credible. If someone can find the >positive/negative switch for the newsgroup please toggle it to another >position. The political content will die down once everybody gets used to the change. You might try reading back issues of the pdp10 newsgroup chatter to figure out what to do about the current situation. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Ben Franchuk Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:25:04 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3CACEEE0.A2683463@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10905 "Doc.Cypher" wrote: > The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it. > ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum. > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 2.6.2 > > iQEVAwUBPKuJcsriC3SGiziTAQE3Jgf/eFaOkjWL+VLC7d5NFAk67giZ1zSdIsYJ > EP5i4Q31AFMNK5vMOO55CKASyVL5BZDNzqbiy1tE1iR4vPO9IqQxHDAq3SB1SiG0 > kFAbsJAMuljjV4Fq0iwP6orob8El0owktbw02La2CYTAJ9CREUYMOlNFClQjtAa3 > K7c5W5iyX2mrmAkHbBAlCImtwsnJnyjAYPkrZvTvTPvTgfey5XgRbAB1PrKlc00D > Pemm06JPC44yMy0HBvJRZw8vWeJXaM5AQjoGFt52oTbSPpru+puVofgZaLLcurUw > z/M5yC7Jt0BzBsRoY1d+PIguS/T5Jj6svHz/9uPCmZE8J04kdt5Pkw== > =42TX > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Are you not tempting fate with that Sig just before PGP stuff? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 33 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:40:44 CST X-Trace: sv3-RthmyydNp88zMO+jpuWPQxlrw7Mk3fYfyfyNa/wTrQIhjgrV0d2/jx8CEtkPnDR3GXKGY6m4iYGg6vF!EUqQ9lpoZgywLMVuOppG3qnol8+m+gQpL8okkzjrUND4SWgF0zBE7/D/5Kb105nMd4kL68TgfhIY!kHzSjbyz9Jp/siQAtYE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 04:40:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.voicenet.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10932 "Doc.Cypher" wrote in message news:20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org... ... > If someone can find the > positive/negative switch for the newsgroup please toggle it to another > position. There's no mystery about where the switch is located: it's at Michael.Capellas@Compaq.com. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked for years, and there appears to be little likelihood of getting it replaced with a more effective one. People like Fred who exhort customers to run out and buy as many VMS systems as they can afford in the hope that this will give the platform a better chance for a future are seriously confused about how commerce works: it's the *vendor* who needs to give *customers* the assurance of a product's future, not the reverse. So when the vendor's top management clearly has no interest in the product, nor any interest in accepting customer suggestions for how to improve its revenue and profit, asking customers to hang on in the hope they won't be hung out to dry is - well, the most charitable characterization one can put on it is the one I did ("seriously confused"), but after sufficient repetitions in the face of clear explanations it really does begin to look much more like being self-serving ("I'd like to hang onto this job a while longer: won't you put your company's money on the line to increase my chances?"). - bill ###### From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) Message-ID: Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10,comp.os.vms Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: ProNews/2 V1.51.ib110 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: slip32-106-24-68.ehn.de.prserv.net Date: 5 Apr 2002 05:22:57 GMT X-Trace: 5 Apr 2002 05:22:57 GMT, slip32-106-24-68.ehn.de.prserv.net Organization: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services Lines: 13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.us.prserv.net!prserv.net!news3.prserv.net!slip32-106-24-68.ehn.de.prserv.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10930 On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 01:17:09 UTC, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > What stands out to me was the fact the fact that DEC's PC did not come a > floppy disk format program. You had to Buy DEC's pre-formated disks. > The weird floppy too I bet cost lots of $$$. Really? my Rainbow did - for both CP/M and, eventually, domessdos. Do you mean the VaxMate? -- Cheers - Dave. ###### Date: 5 Apr 2002 07:09:24 -0000 Message-ID: <20020405070924.3199.qmail@gacracker.org> From: Doc.Cypher Author-Supplied-Address: doc_cypher redneck gacracker org Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Cc: mail2news@freedom.gmsociety.org Encryption: None/PGP-Signed, Key-ID=0x868B3893 X-To-Post-Anon: http://www.eskimo.com/~turing/remailer/FAQ/ X-To-Use-Pseudonyms: http://vmsbox.cjb.net/nymservers/nym-help.html X-Nym-Public-Key: http://web.mit.edu/bin/finger?doc_cypher@nym.alias.net X-Website: http://vmsbox.cjb.net Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> <3CACEEE0.A2683463@jetnet.ab.ca> Administrative-Comment: Send comments to Mail-To-News-Contact: abuse@dizum.com Organization: mail2news@dizum.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.dizum.com!sewer-output!mail2news-x3!mail2news-x2!mail2news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10922 On Thu, 04 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: >"Doc.Cypher" wrote: > >> The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it. >> ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum. >Are you not tempting fate with that Sig just before PGP stuff? Dunno, care to explain a bit more why it would be tempting fate? BTW, apologies for the PGP sig. I used the wrong template for posting, I usually don't PGP-sign messages to comp.os.vms. Doc. -- The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it. ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum. http://vmsbox.cjb.net ###### From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10,comp.os.vms Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 5 Apr 2002 07:41:41 -0600 Organization: Berbee Information Networks Corporation Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDEOrganization: Encompasserve NNTP-Posting-Host: eisner.encompasserve.org X-Trace: grandcanyon.binc.net 1018014103 16397 192.135.80.34 (5 Apr 2002 13:41:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@binc.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:41:43 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.binc.net!koehler Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10929 In article , djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes: > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 01:17:09 UTC, Ben Franchuk > wrote: > >> >> What stands out to me was the fact the fact that DEC's PC did not come a >> floppy disk format program. You had to Buy DEC's pre-formated disks. >> The weird floppy too I bet cost lots of $$$. > > Really? my Rainbow did - for both CP/M and, eventually, domessdos. Do > you mean the VaxMate? The problem was on the Pro series. No utility to format the disks. Some Pro series FAQs have quite a discussion about what you might use to format them under Windows, maybe. ###### From: "Fred Kleinsorge" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 47 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 08:43:56 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.32.248.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@Compaq.com X-Trace: news.cpqcorp.net 1018014615 16.32.248.182 (Fri, 05 Apr 2002 05:50:15 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 05:50:15 PST Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!uunet!dca.uu.net!news.compaq.com!news.cpqcorp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10926 Bill Todd wrote in message ... > >"Doc.Cypher" wrote in message >news:20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org... > >... > >> If someone can find the >> positive/negative switch for the newsgroup please toggle it to another >> position. > >There's no mystery about where the switch is located: it's at >Michael.Capellas@Compaq.com. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked for years, and >there appears to be little likelihood of getting it replaced with a more >effective one. > >People like Fred who exhort customers to run out and buy as many VMS systems >as they can afford in the hope that this will give the platform a better >chance for a future are seriously confused about how commerce works: it's >the *vendor* who needs to give *customers* the assurance of a product's >future, not the reverse. So when the vendor's top management clearly has no >interest in the product, nor any interest in accepting customer suggestions >for how to improve its revenue and profit, asking customers to hang on in >the hope they won't be hung out to dry is - well, the most charitable >characterization one can put on it is the one I did ("seriously confused"), >but after sufficient repetitions in the face of clear explanations it really >does begin to look much more like being self-serving ("I'd like to hang onto >this job a while longer: won't you put your company's money on the line to >increase my chances?"). > Hey, I've given you *my* assurance, but that isn't good enough for you. Fair enough. However, your position is lets try and start a death-spiral because your pissed off (although you have no stake in the outcome). Products are a success because people buy them. If people are buying VMS, it's a success, and there is nothing quite as nice as a success cycle and positive re-enforcement. ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 52 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:15:39 CST X-Trace: sv3-nGqcKQ08Cf/CXuNbQL9uo3VneIpUgdK1YKFFBEoeJN7MSZVMSydWkMauMeQyou1H5TejleDsZzl+lcX!aK+PfndCvbKc0eW+KRkSZAKr+YZQhptY7fCdOH7obrOadxLj/rSLPTThiCNHiFtPDcoH41/nqFSD!MkdpfRWaAHaaspMlA15FQSvV X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 19:15:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10934 "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote in message news:rYhr8.1931$fL6.39039@news.cpqcorp.net... > Bill Todd wrote in message ... ... > >People like Fred who exhort customers to run out and buy as many VMS > systems > >as they can afford in the hope that this will give the platform a better > >chance for a future are seriously confused about how commerce works: it's > >the *vendor* who needs to give *customers* the assurance of a product's > >future, not the reverse. So when the vendor's top management clearly has > no > >interest in the product, nor any interest in accepting customer suggestions > >for how to improve its revenue and profit, asking customers to hang on in > >the hope they won't be hung out to dry is - well, the most charitable > >characterization one can put on it is the one I did ("seriously confused"), > >but after sufficient repetitions in the face of clear explanations it > really > >does begin to look much more like being self-serving ("I'd like to hang > onto > >this job a while longer: won't you put your company's money on the line to > >increase my chances?"). > > > > Hey, I've given you *my* assurance, but that isn't good enough for you. > Fair enough. However, your position is lets try and start a death-spiral > because your pissed off (although you have no stake in the outcome). Wrong again, Fred. My position is that since VMS's owner has proven time and time again that it's not going to listen to anything else, threatening it with major loss of revenue and profit is the *only* option left for securing VMS's future (and if you don't take that option, then either you'd better be willing to live committed to a platform with a manifestly *insecure* future or find another platform to commit to). Your advice that customers should instead close their eyes tightly and keep repeating "I *DO* believe in fairies!" is at least consistent with your protestation elsewhere today that you're just an engineer and have no influence on corporate decisions: accepting corporate mismanagement rather than taking a stand against it is what brought DECpac (and its customers) to where they are today. - bill ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 87 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:55:19 CST X-Trace: sv3-Pn62cbW19fQ+6gS8X4efK4FAvvOijROa2o0g3c+qGf1Tcb6Yf5Hci0X784mG6wAbYr8M6GvjHXsTnme!dXgA3grv0vkn0+Z8N/NQqsszr1BwLb8QE+ikOANb9vghWqqlpn0XkKclIg5uitaMzm29axBDw2Mu!EQZ1kjkSpVYHt5Cj2oLw X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 19:55:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!hub1.nntpserver.com!easynews!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10933 "Bill Todd" wrote in message news:vJmr8.245701$2q2.21482851@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote in message > news:rYhr8.1931$fL6.39039@news.cpqcorp.net... > > Bill Todd wrote in message ... > > ... > > > >People like Fred who exhort customers to run out and buy as many VMS > > systems > > >as they can afford in the hope that this will give the platform a better > > >chance for a future are seriously confused about how commerce works: > it's > > >the *vendor* who needs to give *customers* the assurance of a product's > > >future, not the reverse. So when the vendor's top management clearly has > > no > > >interest in the product, nor any interest in accepting customer > suggestions > > >for how to improve its revenue and profit, asking customers to hang on in > > >the hope they won't be hung out to dry is - well, the most charitable > > >characterization one can put on it is the one I did ("seriously > confused"), > > >but after sufficient repetitions in the face of clear explanations it > > really > > >does begin to look much more like being self-serving ("I'd like to hang > > onto > > >this job a while longer: won't you put your company's money on the line > to > > >increase my chances?"). > > > > > > > Hey, I've given you *my* assurance, but that isn't good enough for you. > > Fair enough. However, your position is lets try and start a death-spiral > > because your pissed off (although you have no stake in the outcome). > > Wrong again, Fred. My position is that since VMS's owner has proven time > and time again that it's not going to listen to anything else, threatening > it with major loss of revenue and profit is the *only* option left for > securing VMS's future (and if you don't take that option, then either you'd > better be willing to live committed to a platform with a manifestly > *insecure* future or find another platform to commit to). > > Your advice that customers should instead close their eyes tightly and keep > repeating "I *DO* believe in fairies!" is at least consistent with your > protestation elsewhere today that you're just an engineer and have no > influence on corporate decisions: accepting corporate mismanagement rather > than taking a stand against it is what brought DECpac (and its customers) to > where they are today. And for those who might be inclined to accept Fred's 'assurance' of VMS's future, consider the following: It was only three years ago that a VMS code freeze was planned for next year. That decision got changed (perhaps not coincidentally at about the same time the solemn long-term commitments to Alpha were reaffirmed...) and VMS enjoyed its small (but promising) 'renaissance'. Since then, the renaissance has fizzled (as I suggested it would fifteen months ago in the 'letter to Curly' post Rob cited) and VMS has returned to about the same state it was in when the freeze was planned. A lot of the same upper management is still in charge, and will move to HP retaining similar responsibilities. Any belief that the 'commitments' (tepid ones compared with those made to Alpha) are any more binding than the Alpha promises seems rather hard to justify. So I repeat: the *only* way to *ensure* a more promising future for VMS is to get rid of that management and its mentality. Period. Anything else is just aimed at possibly delaying VMS's demise, and presenting it otherwise is an attempt to keep it alive for as long as *you* care about by suggesting that following your strategy will keep it alive for as long as *others* care about (a morally dubious position at best). - bill ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Sat, 06 Apr 02 11:27:04 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZbOV6nb0VqWnK/aNaf0RvGTfqs2SmRyCYDEjJ+SiNQUtwYEPfIXBpQ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 2002 13:49:19 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-34 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10943 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: >On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Bill Todd wrote: >> Of course you do. You likely thought Alpha had a future as well. And of >> course many like you were sure that the VMS 'renaissance' was only the start >> of an accelerating upswing. >> >> As prophets in this area, you rank well below a coin-flip in accuracy (while >> other less-biased observers have done far better). But given VMS's >> sheltered/imprisoned status within Compaq, perhaps you have the kind of >> co-dependency on Compaq that kidnap victims are reputed to develop with >> their captors. > >Geese Louise, does this ever sound like 20 years ago in LCG!! > >So it seems that the VMS world forgot the past, and is now doomed to >repeat it. > It's a part of DEC folklore. Compaq kept the management that shoots balls instead of feet. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Fred Kleinsorge" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 53 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:52:02 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.32.192.114 X-Complaints-To: abuse@Compaq.com X-Trace: news.cpqcorp.net 1018054136 16.32.192.114 (Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:48:56 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:48:56 PST Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.compaq.com!news.cpqcorp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10949 "Bill Todd" wrote in message news:Hinr8.15703$w7.1146187@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > It was only three years ago that a VMS code freeze was planned for next > year. That decision got changed (perhaps not coincidentally at about the > same time the solemn long-term commitments to Alpha were reaffirmed...) and > VMS enjoyed its small (but promising) 'renaissance'. > Eh? What "freeze"? Some random net rumor? There was never a freeze planned on the floor. What there was, was "landing zones" to lengthen the time that a customer could ride a functional release during the Y2K panic. > Since then, the renaissance has fizzled (as I suggested it would fifteen > months ago in the 'letter to Curly' post Rob cited) and VMS has returned to > about the same state it was in when the freeze was planned. A lot of the > same upper management is still in charge, and will move to HP retaining > similar responsibilities. Any belief that the 'commitments' (tepid ones > compared with those made to Alpha) are any more binding than the Alpha > promises seems rather hard to justify. > Wow. What basis of facts do you have? We're talking about the plans for V8.0 and what "should" be in a major release. We're working on COE certification. We have UNIX compatbility projects underway. We have 4 releases (internal and then external) of IA64 planned to get us to a fully compatable/capable customer release. What exact "state" have we returned to? We think VMS has a future. We are writing new functionality, adding new devices. Planning the launch of Marvel. Porting to IA64. Everyone who I have talked to inside and outside of VMS in Compaq believes that VMS is very well positioned in the new HP. > So I repeat: the *only* way to *ensure* a more promising future for VMS is > to get rid of that management and its mentality. Period. Anything else is > just aimed at possibly delaying VMS's demise, and presenting it otherwise is > an attempt to keep it alive for as long as *you* care about by suggesting > that following your strategy will keep it alive for as long as *others* care > about (a morally dubious position at best). > And you think that somehow whining and causing FUD in this newsgroup will do it? Who do you want to manage the company? You? ###### From: "Mike Cukr" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> <3CAE5BDB.D8A085A2@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 46 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <9Xur8.13316$Hr6.217460@news.webusenet.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 23:36:21 EST Organization: WebUseNet Corp. http://corp.webusenet.com - ReInventing the UseNet Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:41:47 -0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer1!btnet!newsfeeds-atl2!news.webusenet.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10953 "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:3CAE5BDB.D8A085A2@videotron.ca... > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > > Eh? What "freeze"? Some random net rumor? > > I suggest you speak to Mr Marcello about a certain decision they seriously > considered 2 years ago, june timeframe if I remember correctly. They decided > otherwise and gave VMS its small renaissance marketing budget to turn things around. > > > Wow. What basis of facts do you have? We're talking about the plans for > > V8.0 and what "should" be in a major release. We're working on COE > > certification. > > etc etc > > In all fairness, the Alpha engineers also had plenty of plans for the chip and > there was a team working on the next generation EV8 already. But that was > killed unceremoniously. No point in beating up Fred, he probibly knows less than just about anyone else on the planet about what may or may not happen to VAX/VMS. As an employee he will be the last to know if management decides to pull the plug and then only when a security type hands him a pice of paper and a bankers box to put his desk contents into before being escorted from the building. As for now, he can only spout the current company line. If you really want to have an impact on the future of VAX/VMS buy a slug of HP stock, round up a bunch of like minded stockholders, and start a mail/phone campaign directed towards HPs' management/board of directors and then, by all means attend the next stockholders meeting and express your views there too. --soapbox mode off Mike ###### Message-ID: <3CAE5B8F.FF0AD280@fsi.net> From: "David J. Dachtera" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10,comp.os.vms Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 20:10:33 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-U4VmT2ys5gu/Jp23dLHVPVJNH8QfiZHEhAo8lOX7Z/ZSZIVBwD6tmU6+ywV0rztUaay0hHDOdM9gprW!+cgoilYsVjUFEYJKSEz24laEwR8LXpZ62yMsHhCCAPrcI4Yv1MIFerFKuHw5Qw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 02:10:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10958 Dave Weatherall wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 01:17:09 UTC, Ben Franchuk > wrote: > > > > > What stands out to me was the fact the fact that DEC's PC did not come a > > floppy disk format program. You had to Buy DEC's pre-formated disks. > > The weird floppy too I bet cost lots of $$$. > > Really? my Rainbow did - for both CP/M and, eventually, domessdos. Do > you mean the VaxMate? Hhmmm... I seem to recall having that same problem with a MicroVAX-II that supported floppies. -- David J. Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ ###### Message-ID: <3CAE5BDB.D8A085A2@videotron.ca> From: JF Mezei X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 21:22:31 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.202.148.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@videotron.ca X-Trace: weber.videotron.net 1018059336 24.202.148.20 (Fri, 05 Apr 2002 21:15:36 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 21:15:36 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!weber.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10938 Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > Eh? What "freeze"? Some random net rumor? I suggest you speak to Mr Marcello about a certain decision they seriously considered 2 years ago, june timeframe if I remember correctly. They decided otherwise and gave VMS its small renaissance marketing budget to turn things around. > Wow. What basis of facts do you have? We're talking about the plans for > V8.0 and what "should" be in a major release. We're working on COE > certification. etc etc In all fairness, the Alpha engineers also had plenty of plans for the chip and there was a team working on the next generation EV8 already. But that was killed unceremoniously. ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 104 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 21:48:56 CST X-Trace: sv3-hs3n0Hi3LpfUGmnLAeYu1cEJ665jIwktUHJjyPje+mF1jE4WwCCuErvS9ZiA9bQLdtr9qYlPCmmlSO9!QusIASg+2nEztVdsUte/sEUP8GJcmtwzBPzGuj7xIrc1EpVjbg2Pu19SK7e4I03AH5yYbjrnhc0t!UTe/tL0OLeotJhRB8CsSoRix X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:48:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10936 "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote in message news:YBrr8.1970$fL6.39887@news.cpqcorp.net... > > "Bill Todd" wrote in message > news:Hinr8.15703$w7.1146187@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > It was only three years ago that a VMS code freeze was planned for next > > year. That decision got changed (perhaps not coincidentally at about the > > same time the solemn long-term commitments to Alpha were reaffirmed...) > and > > VMS enjoyed its small (but promising) 'renaissance'. > > > > Eh? What "freeze"? Some random net rumor? There was never a freeze > planned on the floor. Whatever your mistaken impressions, a freeze was indeed planned back then (and then reconsidered), as stated by someone with the authority to fire not only you but several layers of management above you. And your presumption that Compaq couldn't possibly have had such plans without having consulted with you first seems amusingly at odds with your previous statement that as an engineer you have no influence on corporate decisions - but consistency isn't exactly your strong suit. And (not that the above source was in any way less than completely credible) Curly himself, a bit before formally having ascended to the throne, made an off-hand reference to this at a sales meeting. Guess you must have missed that one too: perhaps it conflicted with a golf date. What there was, was "landing zones" to lengthen the > time that a customer could ride a functional release during the Y2K panic. > > > Since then, the renaissance has fizzled (as I suggested it would fifteen > > months ago in the 'letter to Curly' post Rob cited) and VMS has returned > to > > about the same state it was in when the freeze was planned. A lot of the > > same upper management is still in charge, and will move to HP retaining > > similar responsibilities. Any belief that the 'commitments' (tepid ones > > compared with those made to Alpha) are any more binding than the Alpha > > promises seems rather hard to justify. > > > > Wow. What basis of facts do you have? We're talking about the plans for > V8.0 and what "should" be in a major release. We're working on COE > certification. We have UNIX compatbility projects underway. We have 4 > releases (internal and then external) of IA64 planned to get us to a fully > compatable/capable customer release. What exact "state" have we returned > to? Except for the port to Itanic (the absolute minimum that Compaq could do to keep VMS perceived as viable at all rather than stranded on Alpha like Tru64, not to mention the question of whether Intel is underwriting it as part of the Alpha deal), you've returned to at most the same level of development (and obscurity in the Compaq marketing lexicon) that you had three years ago. That level wasn't sufficient to protect you from being seriously considered for execution then, so there's little reason to expect it to protect you now should the wind blow even slightly the wrong way. We think VMS has a future. Of course you do. You likely thought Alpha had a future as well. And of course many like you were sure that the VMS 'renaissance' was only the start of an accelerating upswing. As prophets in this area, you rank well below a coin-flip in accuracy (while other less-biased observers have done far better). But given VMS's sheltered/imprisoned status within Compaq, perhaps you have the kind of co-dependency on Compaq that kidnap victims are reputed to develop with their captors. We are writing new functionality, adding > new devices. Planning the launch of Marvel. Porting to IA64. Everyone who > I have talked to inside and outside of VMS in Compaq believes that VMS is > very well positioned in the new HP. > > > So I repeat: the *only* way to *ensure* a more promising future for VMS > is > > to get rid of that management and its mentality. Period. Anything else > is > > just aimed at possibly delaying VMS's demise, and presenting it otherwise > is > > an attempt to keep it alive for as long as *you* care about by suggesting > > that following your strategy will keep it alive for as long as *others* > care > > about (a morally dubious position at best). > > > > And you think that somehow whining and causing FUD in this newsgroup will do > it? Who do you want to manage the company? You? As others have stated, a trained monkey would be an improvement, and I suspect I could do at least a bit better than that. - bill ###### From: "Fred Kleinsorge" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> <3CAE5BDB.D8A085A2@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 22:55:12 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.32.192.103 X-Complaints-To: abuse@Compaq.com X-Trace: news.cpqcorp.net 1018108324 16.32.192.103 (Sat, 06 Apr 2002 07:52:04 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 07:52:04 PST Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.compaq.com!news.cpqcorp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10947 "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:3CAE5BDB.D8A085A2@videotron.ca... > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > > Eh? What "freeze"? Some random net rumor? > > I suggest you speak to Mr Marcello about a certain decision they seriously > considered 2 years ago, june timeframe if I remember correctly. They decided > otherwise and gave VMS its small renaissance marketing budget to turn things around. > No. I believe you have misinterpereted things. The company certainly evaluated all options, including putting OpenVMS into maintenance mode. It was never a "plan". In the end, what was proposed was to "focus" on vertical segments where we had strength, as a way to return VMS to growth - as opposed to trying to be all things to all people. And it worked, and is still working. > > Wow. What basis of facts do you have? We're talking about the plans for > > V8.0 and what "should" be in a major release. We're working on COE > > certification. > > etc etc > > In all fairness, the Alpha engineers also had plenty of plans for the chip and > there was a team working on the next generation EV8 already. But that was > killed unceremoniously. In fairness, we always have plans for new systems and new chips. EV8 was far enough on the horizon that not a lot of O/S work had been done for it. But it's major impacts (like 64kb pages) certainly had some amount of study. Just as we now are planning for the next 3-4 generations of IA64. ###### From: "Fred Kleinsorge" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 22:57:24 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.32.192.103 X-Complaints-To: abuse@Compaq.com X-Trace: news.cpqcorp.net 1018108456 16.32.192.103 (Sat, 06 Apr 2002 07:54:16 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 07:54:16 PST Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!sfo2-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.compaq.com!news.cpqcorp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10948 "Bill Todd" wrote in message news:Ieur8.134395$VJ1.11389758@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > > And you think that somehow whining and causing FUD in this newsgroup will > do > > it? Who do you want to manage the company? You? > > As others have stated, a trained monkey would be an improvement, and I > suspect I could do at least a bit better than that. > I'll take the trained monkey first. ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 22:45:23 -0800 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva0.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp6.u.washington.edu 1018075525 24934 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva0.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10945 On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Bill Todd wrote: > Of course you do. You likely thought Alpha had a future as well. And of > course many like you were sure that the VMS 'renaissance' was only the start > of an accelerating upswing. > > As prophets in this area, you rank well below a coin-flip in accuracy (while > other less-biased observers have done far better). But given VMS's > sheltered/imprisoned status within Compaq, perhaps you have the kind of > co-dependency on Compaq that kidnap victims are reputed to develop with > their captors. Geese Louise, does this ever sound like 20 years ago in LCG!! So it seems that the VMS world forgot the past, and is now doomed to repeat it. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CAE5B8F.FF0AD280@fsi.net> User-Agent: ProNews/2 V1.51.ib110 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: slip32-106-24-207.ehn.de.prserv.net Date: 6 Apr 2002 07:22:42 GMT X-Trace: 6 Apr 2002 07:22:42 GMT, slip32-106-24-207.ehn.de.prserv.net Organization: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services Lines: 27 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!washdc3-snf1!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.us.prserv.net!prserv.net!news3.prserv.net!slip32-106-24-207.ehn.de.prserv.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10955 On Sat, 6 Apr 2002 02:10:33 UTC, "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > Dave Weatherall wrote: > > > > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 01:17:09 UTC, Ben Franchuk > > wrote: > > > > > > > > What stands out to me was the fact the fact that DEC's PC did not come a > > > floppy disk format program. You had to Buy DEC's pre-formated disks. > > > The weird floppy too I bet cost lots of $$$. > > > > Really? my Rainbow did - for both CP/M and, eventually, domessdos. Do > > you mean the VaxMate? > > Hhmmm... I seem to recall having that same problem with a MicroVAX-II > that supported floppies. > Now that I can relate to. I remember using my Rainbow to format/init some RX50 compatibles for use at work. ISTR that I needed to test a call from DCL to EXCHANGE to an RT-11 volume. The floppy was the only thing I could use. -- Cheers - Dave. ###### From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca><6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net><7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> User-Agent: ProNews/2 V1.51.ib110 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: slip32-106-24-207.ehn.de.prserv.net Date: 6 Apr 2002 07:22:43 GMT X-Trace: 6 Apr 2002 07:22:43 GMT, slip32-106-24-207.ehn.de.prserv.net Organization: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services Lines: 30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!isdnet!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.hanau.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.netuse.de!shodan.krzn.de!newsfeed.de.prserv.net!news2.prserv.net!newsfeed.us.prserv.net!prserv.net!news3.prserv.net!slip32-106-24-207.ehn.de.prserv.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10956 On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:41:41 UTC, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes: > > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 01:17:09 UTC, Ben Franchuk > > wrote: > > > >> > >> What stands out to me was the fact the fact that DEC's PC did not come a > >> floppy disk format program. You had to Buy DEC's pre-formated disks. > >> The weird floppy too I bet cost lots of $$$. > > > > Really? my Rainbow did - for both CP/M and, eventually, domessdos. Do > > you mean the VaxMate? > > The problem was on the Pro series. No utility to format the disks. > Some Pro series FAQs have quite a discussion about what you might use > to format them under Windows, maybe. I see what what you mean now. I remember my surprise when I fisrt learned this. I fancied a PRO 'cos I thought i might be able to do some RSX style development on them. Never came to pass though. There was a program, RX50INIT by Robert Morse, that allowed an 80 track single sided (i.e. RX50 compatible) floppy to be initialised for DoMs-DOS. Never saw a IBM-PC-DOS-program to format one, though. I just kept/keep a Rainbow100A for that job :-) Cheers - Dave. ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10,comp.os.vms Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 06 Apr 2002 19:45:01 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 15 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87r8ltoxtu.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDEOrganization: Encompasserve NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1018094532 3975 202.154.80.9 (6 Apr 2002 12:02:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 12:02:12 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p212.qv1-02.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10951 koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > The problem was on the Pro series. No utility to format the disks. > Some Pro series FAQs have quite a discussion about what you might > use to format them under Windows, maybe. And the controller could not format the disks anyway. At least the Pro floppy controller was not as thick and stupid as the MFM controller! -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 27 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 11:39:56 CST X-Trace: sv3-6TaSDFuwFwsVVg8Zns4z0oFjw+JmxacJhLPmAXxW+roUWY3syfcSAXmu3oA2eTbddF6qMLXk9CUQ3Jy!c4MAFaxQ6iNGdaqR2fTZtIo78y0mbR9wnBPEvNOP0DJH4F5Vsig6ilBw2CgcTNyHae7NrtAXzjRO!E/oM1M8CGAzqxJIWN4nH X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 17:39:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!easynews!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10959 "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote in message news:ISEr8.1977$fL6.40914@news.cpqcorp.net... > > "Bill Todd" wrote in message > news:Ieur8.134395$VJ1.11389758@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > > > > > And you think that somehow whining and causing FUD in this newsgroup > will > > do > > > it? Who do you want to manage the company? You? > > > > As others have stated, a trained monkey would be an improvement, and I > > suspect I could do at least a bit better than that. > > > > I'll take the trained monkey first. Have you forgotten your own words so quickly? You don't have any say in the matter... - bill ###### From: David Froble Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 22:19:13 -0500 Organization: Infobahn International, Inc. news server Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3CAFBAB1.305@tsoft-inc.com> References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: dfeul.icubed.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!nwnews.wa.com!news-chi-2.sprintlink.net!news-central.sprintlink.net!news-in-central.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.icubed.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10963 Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > "Bill Todd" wrote in message > news:Ieur8.134395$VJ1.11389758@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > >>>And you think that somehow whining and causing FUD in this newsgroup >>> > will > >>do >> >>>it? Who do you want to manage the company? You? >>> >>As others have stated, a trained monkey would be an improvement, and I >>suspect I could do at least a bit better than that. >> >> > > I'll take the trained monkey first. You promise to be a bit less nasty, and see how long it lasts. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10,comp.os.vms Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CA9B3DF.C1561D9A@videotron.ca> <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net> <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 07 Apr 2002 14:03:36 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 7 Apr 2002 14:11:16 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10974 Ben Franchuk wrote: > What stands out to me was the fact the fact that DEC's PC did not come a > floppy disk format program. You had to Buy DEC's pre-formated disks. djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes: > Really? my Rainbow did - for both CP/M and, eventually, domessdos. Do > you mean the VaxMate? Yes, but that was the *ONLY* product they made that could format floppy discs, up until they started making true PC clones. Before the Rainbow, they made dozens of different products with floppy drives, and AFAIK *NONE* of them could format the diskettes. And some of the products after the Rainbow couldn't either. Even their other PC-class products contemporary with the Rainbow, the Professional and the DECmate, could not format diskettes. Hmmmm... was the Robin (VT-180) able to format diskettes? If so, it might have been the first DEC product that could. ###### From: "Michael A. Foley" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 12:27:43 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> <3CAFBAB1.305@tsoft-inc.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10975 "David Froble" wrote in message news:3CAFBAB1.305@tsoft-inc.com... > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > > > "Bill Todd" wrote in message > > news:Ieur8.134395$VJ1.11389758@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > >>>And you think that somehow whining and causing FUD in this newsgroup > >>> > > will > > > >>do > >> > >>>it? Who do you want to manage the company? You? > >>> > >>As others have stated, a trained monkey would be an improvement, and I > >>suspect I could do at least a bit better than that. > >> > >> > > > > I'll take the trained monkey first. > > You promise to be a bit less nasty, and see how long it lasts. > Try to have a bit of a sense of humour. It'll help you live longer.. Fred, just make sure you mount the scratch monkey first. mike ###### From: Malcolm MacArthur Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 8 Apr 2002 19:37:37 GMT Organization: DisOrganisation Lines: 77 Message-ID: References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: neverness.freeserve.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 1018294657 14124 62.137.132.62 (8 Apr 2002 19:37:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Apr 2002 19:37:37 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10969 Ben Franchuk wrote in news:3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca: > Bill Todd wrote: >> [...] >> DEC really did try, first with the PC efforts (which admittedly it >> attempted to differentiate such that they wouldn't compete with >> higher-margin 'real' 11s) and then with the 'real' 11. But it hadn't >> yet learned how to produce low-quality products at commodity prices >> (as its early efforts to produce PC-compatibles demonstrated as >> well). > > What stands out to me was the fact the fact that DEC's PC did not come > a floppy disk format program. You had to Buy DEC's pre-formated disks. > The weird floppy too I bet cost lots of $$$. > and Dave Weatherall wrote: > Really? my Rainbow did - for both CP/M and, eventually, domessdos. Do > you mean the VaxMate? Judging from the fact he talks about the PC competing with the "'real' 11", he must be referring to the DEC Professional line of PDP-11 based personal computers. It's based around a microprocessor implementation of the PDP-11 (J-11??) and shipped with a not-very-good menu-driven operating system called P/OS. Some people may cruelly suggest that the initials stand for 'a quantity of excrement' ;-) They look like Rainbows, and, rather oddly, use a Yale-type key switch for the power. [That reminds me - must get a spare key cut...or disassemble the lock and pull out all the pins so I can switch it on with a screwdriver, whichever is cheaper considering it's some strange key I'll probably never get a blank for]. They came with a composite video monitor (you had a choice of monochrome or colour - mine is colour). P/OS is a cut down version of RSX, with some extra features as well (subdirectories come to mind). Development and CLI access was made possible with the P/OS Toolkit. RT-11 was also available and some third party unix called Venix. A very nice computer for its day, and would have made ideal PDP-11 development workstations. However, it never ran ordinary RSX, although (allegedly) there are conditionals in the source to compile for it. Would still require device support for the console to be written, but that code could be borrowed from P/OS - if the source code still exists, that is... However, it was very overpriced for its target market (it was designed for office use by the non-computer literate, hence the menu-driven OS) - AIUI (can't say IIRC, as I was too young to be in the biz at the time...) it was about 5/3 the price of a similar (storage, memory) spec IBM PC of that era, used a strange expansion bus format for which very few peripherals were made (and for which even fewer can still be found), and, as mentioned, couldn't format its own floppies. Result: it sold like cold-cakes. Most of them ended up as console machines on VAX systems. The one I have must be one of the few hundred (Hmm? Maybe there were a couple of thousand tops... just guessing - anyone have a better guess for how many Professionals were sold?) that were sold in the UK 'standalone'. Some oil company used it for something (which is all I know of its history - it arrived with a blank HDD ;). I am sure, when I was down in London in '98 or '99, I saw some in London Underground ticket offices... and as it ran RT-11, some were probably used in embedded control applications. Now, if it had been marketed as a PDP-11 development workstation, and if it could have run the whole gamut of PDP-11 operating systems (the DEC ones, anyway) it might have been quite a successful little machine. With optional UNIBUS/Q-BUS support, it would have made a nice affordable PDP-11 development system. -Malcolm (Proud owner of a Professional 380, 512 KW core (well, OK, they're DRAMS...), P/OS (unfortunately. Want RSX. Anyone know how to make it work? :) and Venix (requires a hard drive swap)). Subtract nine for e-mail (anti-spam measure). ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 08 Apr 2002 23:10:03 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 74 Message-ID: <6uit71kic4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1018300208 763 10.0.3.2 (8 Apr 2002 21:10:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Apr 2002 21:10:08 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10986 Malcolm MacArthur writes: > and Dave Weatherall wrote: > > Really? my Rainbow did - for both CP/M and, eventually, domessdos. Do > > you mean the VaxMate? > > Judging from the fact he talks about the PC competing with the > "'real' 11", he must be referring to the DEC Professional line of > PDP-11 based personal computers. Thats the one I also thought of. > It's based around a microprocessor > implementation of the PDP-11 (J-11??) and shipped with a not-very-good F11, IIRC, at least for the Pro350. J11 was an later chip (perhapst the difference 350->380?). > menu-driven operating system called P/OS. Some people may cruelly > suggest that the initials stand for 'a quantity of excrement' ;-) Piece Of Shit was the term used. Don't be so squeamish, we are under adults here. > it was about 5/3 the price of a similar (storage, memory) spec IBM PC of Not surprising with that mechanical build. Robust as a tank. And a thought through design. Nice touches such as power supply fan that to 2/3 pulls air through supply (taking it from card cage) and 1/3 underneath the supply (channel moulded into case!) from where the processor board is. > that era, used a strange expansion bus format for which very few > peripherals were made (and for which even fewer can still be found), and, Particularly the Ethernet card seems to be VERY seldom. > as mentioned, couldn't format its own floppies. IIRC it took an fixed 8051 (used as floppy controller) chip. > Now, if it had been marketed as a PDP-11 development workstation, and if it > could have run the whole gamut of PDP-11 operating systems (the DEC ones, > anyway) it might have been quite a successful little machine. With optional > UNIBUS/Q-BUS support, it would have made a nice affordable PDP-11 > development system. Yes. > -Malcolm (Proud owner of a Professional 380, 512 KW core (well, OK, > they're DRAMS...), P/OS (unfortunately. Neil Franklin, ex-owner (actually more storer, never used it) of an Pro350. > Want RSX. Anyone know how to make > it work? :) and Venix (requires a hard drive swap)). ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/FAQ/profaq DEC Professional Computer Frequently Asked Questions and Miscellaneous Trivia -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: "Fred Kleinsorge" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> <3CAFBAB1.305@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 36 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 12:51:54 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.32.248.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@Compaq.com X-Trace: news.cpqcorp.net 1018285081 16.32.248.182 (Mon, 08 Apr 2002 09:58:01 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 09:58:01 PDT Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-hub.siol.net!zur.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.compaq.com!news.cpqcorp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11015 Michael A. Foley wrote in message ... > >"David Froble" wrote in message >news:3CAFBAB1.305@tsoft-inc.com... >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >> >> > "Bill Todd" wrote in message >> > news:Ieur8.134395$VJ1.11389758@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >> > >> >>>And you think that somehow whining and causing FUD in this newsgroup >> >>> >> > will >> > >> >>do >> >> >> >>>it? Who do you want to manage the company? You? >> >>> >> >>As others have stated, a trained monkey would be an improvement, and I >> >>suspect I could do at least a bit better than that. >> >> >> >> >> > >> > I'll take the trained monkey first. >> >> You promise to be a bit less nasty, and see how long it lasts. >> > Try to have a bit of a sense of humour. It'll help you live longer.. > > Fred, just make sure you mount the scratch monkey first. > I always mount a scratch monkey ;-) ###### From: Malcolm MacArthur Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 8 Apr 2002 20:28:20 GMT Organization: DisOrganisation Lines: 98 Message-ID: References: <2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: neverness.freeserve.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 1018297700 14124 62.137.132.62 (8 Apr 2002 20:28:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Apr 2002 20:28:20 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10997 Alan Greig wrote in news:2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com: > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:52:00 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge" > wrote: > >>I'm just tired of 20 year old DS20 complaints. VAX/VMS propelled us >>to #2, not the 10/20. > > As I'm a former TOPS-20 system manager and a current VMS one I'm not > sure why you feel more qualified to tell me I'm wrong. In 1980 > virtually every self respecting computer science school ran some > flavour of ten or twenty and these systems were extremely popular. > Maybe half of the UK TOPS-10/20 sites moved to VAX/VMS and the rest > were lost mainly to Unix. Over the years the remainder have almost all > drifted away to non Digital/Compaq systems. How the hell can you say > that the period where DEC went from around number one in education to > near the bottom of the pile was the most successful? > Agreed. And having been one of the few (in the 1990s) that benefitted from being at a university which used VMS systems, I am one of that ever- shrinking pool of people leaving university with VMS experience (I also used some god-awful thing... what was it called? Ick? Yeuch? Ah! Unix, that's what it was... ;) Just a few years after I left, there were no (student) VMS systems left. (the ADMIN system still ran on VMS, mainly IIRC because most of the programs on it were written [or substantially re-written] in-house). I think the ADMIN systems are still there. From seventeen or so VMS systems to two... and (the most vital point) none of them available for educational use. This was primarily a result of a computer-literate manager being replaced by a person with minimal computer knowledge... then a slick salesman came along and said "You should replace this all with NT! NT is the future!". I leave it to you to speculate which company this salesman came from... Result: from OS diversity (Apollo Domain/OS, ULTRIX, AmigaOS, NetBSD/Amiga, IBM AIX, IRIX, SunOS, Minix, two or three others and of course VMS) to a desert (Windows NT). A pattern that has been repeated at many other universities. And somehow, this sparse environment is supposed to give us computer science graduates with a well-rounded education in computers and operating systems? Get real. (Note: despite my jibe at Unix above, I tried to get as broad an experience as possible, and ended up using Minix, Ultrix, VMS, Domain/OS [sparingly] and AIX...) > Unlike some I like what VMS grew into. And yes I do still miss command > recognition and completion but why shouldn't I? And why should I have > to listen to you criticize me, a customer, for still asking for it.? > DCL is a functional command processor. But PCL/MIC enhanced EXEC was > functional and *sexy*. I don't think anyone would ever call DCL sexy. > DCL agrees: $ call dcl sexy %DCL-E-INVCALL, invalid CALL nesting structure or data inconsistency detected $ IMHO, VMS is a wonderful operating system - well-engineered, well thought out and virtually uncrackable if well set up. A great system to hack (in the old sense). But, because of its shrinkage in education and the fact that most computer salesmen are young, dynamic people, its growth is in trouble, becaue most of them have never heard of it, let alone seen it! (and for the benefit of those who like Unix, Unix is also a fun system to hack, but for all the opposite reasons... ;) > DEC did little to smooth a TOPS-20 > VMS migration. Bell's note > indicates he seemed to think making COBOL,, FORTRAN and DBMS > compatible was enough.. If you didn't believe there was far more to an > OS than this you wouldn't likely be working in VMS engineering today. > > Go have a look at an Arpanet HOSTS.TXT file from 1980 and look at the > domination of DEC machines. Something went wrong and there were many, > many factors, but to dismiss the reasoning put forward by PDP-10 > admins of the time who watched it all at close quarters, just like > that, puts you in a bad light in my view. > > "VMS Systems are not normally connected to the Internet" > - Digital UCX V1 documentation. ... which isn't surprising, considering that with UCX 1.0 you had to pay for something the Unix people were bundling for free (and UCX probably wasn't as good). What I guess no-one realised (and it's easy to see with hindsight, which of course has 20/20 vision...) is the extent to which networking computers and getting them to talk to each other would become just as important as the computers themselves... > -- > Alan > -Malcolm. Subtract nine for e-mail (anti-spam measure) ###### From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 8 Apr 2002 17:14:03 -0400 Organization: Columbia University Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsol.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 1018300444 29209 128.59.39.139 (8 Apr 2002 21:14:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Apr 2002 21:14:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!feed-ev1!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!dfw-feed.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!news.columbia.edu!news-not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11014 In article , Malcolm MacArthur wrote: [ Pro-380 story... ] We had about 30 of them, which we got as part of a grant. P/OS was so awful nobody would touch it (despite some impressive graphics demos -- ability to do slide shows of color photos, etc, with apparently instant instant switching from one photo to the next). Another strength was telephony -- supposedly you could plug in your telephone and it would act as an answering-machine/message-router. You could record voice messages and have the computer call programmed numbers and deliver it -- automated telemarketing, 1980s style. Recorded voice could be transcribed stepwise by hand into ascii -- there was a headset and foot pedal to assist with this -- a file could be any mixture of audio and ascii pieces. Also there was evidently some kind of heavy-duty Videotex assist -- it could do some impressive color Videotex realtime "animations". I saw all this at some NDAs in Maynard or Marlboro or somewhere. We ran Venix on ours for a while, and eventually ported 2.9BSD to them and put them out in our public labs, where they served as the first public Unix workstations. They lasted quite a few years. Don't ask me what happened to the 2.9BSD port, it disappeared, sorry. - Frank ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 27 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 16:50:15 CDT X-Trace: sv3-BolijVk85H1sT0AHaJqjaT6Iy45zsV9/gb6w8cg95AgmPBWZlyAd9TkTnzUGiZerlBAQ01XprlsXAzF!zxjBhgGqx9PiXslQNlS0TzCnBIkEBhzEyW9+95NMCSMAAC7q4gf7bl9oqOxRrvg/tRU0MBp99Vnv!jjMD9oCYvFJDThgIAZLAt+px X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:50:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.airnews.net!cabal11.airnews.net!216.166.61.5.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10992 "Malcolm MacArthur" wrote in message news:Xns91EADAD76CCA8malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157... > Alan Greig wrote in > news:2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com: ... > > "VMS Systems are not normally connected to the Internet" > > - Digital UCX V1 documentation. > > ... which isn't surprising, considering that with UCX 1.0 you had to pay > for something the Unix people were bundling for free (and UCX probably > wasn't as good). What I guess no-one realised (and it's easy to see with > hindsight, which of course has 20/20 vision...) is the extent to which > networking computers and getting them to talk to each other would become > just as important as the computers themselves... Sigh. DEC realized this more and earlier than just about anyone else. What they failed to realize (especially after adopting the "VAX is the future!" attitude) was that they couldn't dictate which computers were important to talk with well and which were not. - bill ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 89 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 17:07:21 CDT X-Trace: sv3-PaGlAbSaJ2wfvHLZVs/W5+LOV+8rZLw0iudLeStE54mixcHk4OYEIeyXNBIl9oOkPPSHb8XZzJSkku7!kdF9IpjHOaei+5Vnt16P6XJ2ZROcNWDnl6Pwj6nJPy7I5ZZQzwqVZEK+4j4km0Mv8sAZTe25D1gZ!yDdWVpDn3EtvS+TOldGG X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:07:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10988 "Malcolm MacArthur" wrote in message news:Xns91EAD23DB7B73malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157... ... > Judging from the fact he talks about the PC competing with the > "'real' 11", he must be referring to the DEC Professional line of > PDP-11 based personal computers. Yes. It's based around a microprocessor > implementation of the PDP-11 (J-11??) J-11 for your PRO-380, F-11 for the lowlier PRO-350s. and shipped with a not-very-good > menu-driven operating system called P/OS. Some people may cruelly > suggest that the initials stand for 'a quantity of excrement' ;-) The only excrement was some of the stuff on top: underneath, it was an enhanced RSX-11M-PLUS. ... > P/OS is a cut down version of RSX, M-PLUS, as I said, and I don't recall anything significant cut out of its kernel. with some extra features as well > (subdirectories come to mind). One biggie came in P/OS V3, when we allowed QIOs to be redirected over Ethernet to another system to support remote servers and diskless (or not) workstations (transparently to existing applications). Supported peer-to-peer clustering (at least shared files and printers) as well. Development and CLI access was made > possible with the P/OS Toolkit. RT-11 was also available and some third > party unix called Venix. > > A very nice computer for its day, and would have made ideal PDP-11 > development workstations. However, it never ran ordinary RSX, although > (allegedly) there are conditionals in the source to compile for it. > Would still require device support for the console to be written, but > that code could be borrowed from P/OS - if the source code still > exists, that is... IIRC the RSX group eventually inhaled the P/OS code into its own code base and was working on a releasable M-Plus version for the Pro hardware. But I don't know if it ever actually completed the effort. > > However, it was very overpriced for its target market (it was designed > for office use by the non-computer literate, hence the menu-driven OS) - > AIUI (can't say IIRC, as I was too young to be in the biz at the time...) > it was about 5/3 the price of a similar (storage, memory) spec IBM PC of > that era, I think that's about right. As I said, DEC just couldn't figure out how to build low-cost (and somewhat low-quality) hardware at the time. used a strange expansion bus format for which very few > peripherals were made (and for which even fewer can still be found), and, > as mentioned, couldn't format its own floppies. I just can't remember the rationale for this. There were certainly piracy-protection efforts back then that involved special floppy formating, and that might have been part of the reason. ... > Now, if it had been marketed as a PDP-11 development workstation, and if it > could have run the whole gamut of PDP-11 operating systems (the DEC ones, > anyway) it might have been quite a successful little machine. With optional > UNIBUS/Q-BUS support, it would have made a nice affordable PDP-11 > development system. Yup. But the existing PDP-11 product lines *really* didn't want to be cannibalized, and prevailed (briefly). - bill ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uit71kic4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 17 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 17:45:12 CDT X-Trace: sv3-yDlmECNmXR9+SuRKakf8MRIwAqYgu4Ya6CYA+kJMtJQi8qiV5B6pmqWhk/PK8GySKuc+jZFtfTvQQXr!Xmoj4LRzsCjq8R/8IgjbdQHma+dn4HoYQo1w4cBs/HG57ZFLL7tE1qgf4VPbppP8ltKYvKaglYmk!0ZHkk08DKj7B/HSxazXcASA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:45:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10989 "Neil Franklin" wrote in message news:6uit71kic4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... ... > ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/FAQ/profaq > DEC Professional Computer Frequently Asked Questions and Miscellaneous Trivia My, that brought back some memories (and even a couple of familiar names). Thanks. - bill ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> <3CAFBAB1.305@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 44 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <8aps8.186080$VJ1.14910168@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 17:51:48 CDT X-Trace: sv3-BhkmO7aKWNydwnV4BwFEJ8YxG4lceVDqhEgN2DHYT9vC5loc4gd5GMonc0uqV6G/MXPQL/Da7lnT5/1!kvDoNQqO/GtinV1ifcWYLoQDlQ4qpabC9BOjnxnY/CgkDzpazfnmGexIBoEHFGPOh2HAX0xAWwWm!3U7g9YitqIfgakUDVdCvg8gR X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:51:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!ciril.fr!deine.net!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10990 "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote in message news:t_js8.2004$fL6.47549@news.cpqcorp.net... > Michael A. Foley wrote in message ... > > > >"David Froble" wrote in message > >news:3CAFBAB1.305@tsoft-inc.com... > >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > >> > >> > "Bill Todd" wrote in message > >> > news:Ieur8.134395$VJ1.11389758@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > >> > > >> >>>And you think that somehow whining and causing FUD in this newsgroup > >> >>> > >> > will > >> > > >> >>do > >> >> > >> >>>it? Who do you want to manage the company? You? > >> >>> > >> >>As others have stated, a trained monkey would be an improvement, and I > >> >>suspect I could do at least a bit better than that. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > I'll take the trained monkey first. > >> > >> You promise to be a bit less nasty, and see how long it lasts. > >> > > Try to have a bit of a sense of humour. It'll help you live longer.. > > > > Fred, just make sure you mount the scratch monkey first. > > > > I always mount a scratch monkey ;-) Gently, I hope. - bill ###### Message-ID: <3CB22CFD.80005@srv.net> From: Kevin Handy User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.9+) Gecko/20020319 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 19:46:25 EDT Organization: WebUseNet Corp. - "ReInventing The UseNet" Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 17:51:25 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11029 Bill Todd wrote: > "Malcolm MacArthur" wrote in message > news:Xns91EAD23DB7B73malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157... >>peripherals were made (and for which even fewer can still be found), and, >>as mentioned, couldn't format its own floppies. > > > I just can't remember the rationale for this. There were certainly > piracy-protection efforts back then that involved special floppy formating, > and that might have been part of the reason. > I always heard that it was DEC's attempt at forcing you to buy the floppies from them. I was also told that you couldn't use floppies with the reinforced hubs as they could damage the RX50 drive itself. ###### From: Ben Franchuk Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:55:35 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3CB23C07.CC6C687F@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> <3CAFBAB1.305@tsoft-inc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10995 Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > > Michael A. Foley wrote in message ... > > > >"David Froble" wrote in message > >news:3CAFBAB1.305@tsoft-inc.com... > >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > >> > >> > "Bill Todd" wrote in message > >> > news:Ieur8.134395$VJ1.11389758@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > >> > > >> >>>And you think that somehow whining and causing FUD in this newsgroup > >> >>> > >> > will > >> > > >> >>do > >> >> > >> >>>it? Who do you want to manage the company? You? > >> >>> > >> >>As others have stated, a trained monkey would be an improvement, and I > >> >>suspect I could do at least a bit better than that. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > I'll take the trained monkey first. > >> > >> You promise to be a bit less nasty, and see how long it lasts. > >> > > Try to have a bit of a sense of humour. It'll help you live longer.. > > > > Fred, just make sure you mount the scratch monkey first. > > > > I always mount a scratch monkey ;-) I use better a quality monkey... these have no fleas to scratch. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uit71kic4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 08 Apr 2002 18:53:58 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 8 Apr 2002 19:01:51 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!sfo2-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11025 Malcolm MacArthur writes: >> It's based around a microprocessor >> implementation of the PDP-11 (J-11??) and shipped with a not-very-good Neil Franklin writes: > F11, IIRC, at least for the Pro350. J11 was an later chip (perhapst > the difference 350->380?). Yes, the Pro 325 and Pro 350 used the F11, and the Pro 380 used teh J11. >> as mentioned, couldn't format its own floppies. > IIRC it took an fixed 8051 (used as floppy controller) chip. It had a dedicated floppy controller chip; I don't recall whether it was a 179x or 765. So the 8051 was the floppy controller controller. ###### Message-ID: <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> From: Jeff Campbell Organization: INS-MSI Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 03:04:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.190.8.45 X-Trace: news 1018321450 209.190.8.45 (Mon, 08 Apr 2002 23:04:10 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 23:04:10 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!dfw-feed.news.verio.net!news!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10991 Bill Todd wrote: > > "Malcolm MacArthur" wrote in message > news:Xns91EAD23DB7B73malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157... > > ... > [snip] > > used a strange expansion bus format for which very few > > peripherals were made (and for which even fewer can still be found), and, > > as mentioned, couldn't format its own floppies. > > I just can't remember the rationale for this. There were certainly > piracy-protection efforts back then that involved special floppy formating, > and that might have been part of the reason. Not piracy, but interchange. Not allowing customer formatting almost eliminates service calls for interchange problems. RX01, RX02 and RX50 subsystems cannot format their media. > ... > > > Now, if it had been marketed as a PDP-11 development workstation, and if > it > > could have run the whole gamut of PDP-11 operating systems (the DEC ones, > > anyway) it might have been quite a successful little machine. With > optional > > UNIBUS/Q-BUS support, it would have made a nice affordable PDP-11 > > development system. > > Yup. But the existing PDP-11 product lines *really* didn't want to be > cannibalized, and prevailed (briefly). > > - bill Jeff Campbell n8wxs@arrl.net ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 09 Apr 2002 00:28:50 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 9 Apr 2002 00:36:46 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11022 Jeff Campbell writes about the inability of most DEC floppy disk subsystems to format disks: > Not piracy, but interchange. Not allowing customer formatting almost > eliminates service calls for interchange problems. Can't see why. Floppy drives use open-loop positioning, usually with a stepper motor. So a drive that couldn't format properly due to positioner or head alignment error will still have problems reading and writing even with preformatted floppies. In fact, the problems with writing can be worse, because you can wind up with media that has the address fields and data fields at differing radii, which is much harder to recover data from than a disk that has been formatted and written on the same out-of-alignment drive. I very much doubt that either piracy or interchange was the motivation. I think the initial RX01 design would have been more complicated and expensive if it had been designed to support formatting, so it was simply a cost-cutting measure. Then someone noticed that it also allowed them to charge more money for formatted diskettes, and that led them to deliberately leave out formatting capability in almost all floppy subsystems they designed thereafter. But of course this is only supposition on my part. ###### From: Thord Nilson Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 09:50:48 +0200 Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB22CFD.80005@srv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chicken.stacken.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <3CB22CFD.80005@srv.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!193.213.112.26!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!uio.no!news.kth.se!chicken.stacken.kth.se!thordn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11002 On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Kevin Handy wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: > > "Malcolm MacArthur" wrote in message > > news:Xns91EAD23DB7B73malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157... > > >>peripherals were made (and for which even fewer can still be found), and, > >>as mentioned, couldn't format its own floppies. > > > > > > I just can't remember the rationale for this. There were certainly > > piracy-protection efforts back then that involved special floppy formating, > > and that might have been part of the reason. > > > > I always heard that it was DEC's attempt at forcing you to > buy the floppies from them. I was also told that you couldn't > use floppies with the reinforced hubs as they could damage > the RX50 drive itself. > In one project we had a microvax-ii that we had to backup on floppies. We found that about 5 foppies of 100 could not be written. First we thought that these was defective, but later we found that if you removed and then inserted the floppy again, it was ok. Thus the problem was that the floppy was not always centered on the hub in the RX50. Since a saveset was some 80-100 floppies, if we had format/backup/verified in one go, the probability that we ever could restore the set again was very low. Soloution to the problem... don't fix the floppy drives, sell preformated floppies instead. /Thord. ###### From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 9 Apr 2002 04:32:16 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 23 Message-ID: <55f85d77.0204090332.1cfbc83c@posting.google.com> References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.131.46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1018351936 7305 127.0.0.1 (9 Apr 2002 11:32:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Apr 2002 11:32:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!tethys.csu.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11030 Jeff Campbell wrote in message news:<3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com>... > RX01, RX02 and RX50 subsystems cannot format their media. RX01 was a really screwed up mess - I can remember unsoldering and swapping those unreliable PROMS in it to get it working. It always reminds me of an Apple II floppy in just how non standard it was. RX02 could be formatted.... .FORMAT DY: from the RT-11 days :-) IIRC you could (re)format RX01 single density media for the RX01 on the RX02: .FORMAT DY:/SINGLE Yup, _just like_ VMS you can leave out the unit number and have 0 assumed :-) ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 9 Apr 2002 11:40:06 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1018352406 13234 10.0.0.43 (9 Apr 2002 11:40:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Apr 2002 11:40:06 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!tethys.csu.net!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11020 In article , Eric Smith wrote: >Jeff Campbell writes about the inability of most >DEC floppy disk subsystems to format disks: >> Not piracy, but interchange. Not allowing customer formatting almost >> eliminates service calls for interchange problems. >Can't see why. Floppy drives use open-loop positioning, usually with a >stepper motor. So a drive that couldn't format properly due to >positioner or head alignment error will still have problems reading and >writing even with preformatted floppies. I ran into this... back in the early '80s I used to use some Apple IIs at the university to work on, and I started getting a lot of "bad" floppies. It turned out that one of the apples had a bad drive, way out of alignment but the Apple "software controller" scheme was able to compensate. Mostly. So even floppies formatted in other drives would gradually go bad if they were written to on that computer. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 9 Apr 2002 08:36:22 -0500 Organization: Encompasserve Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: eisner.encompasserve.org X-Trace: grandcanyon.binc.net 1018359383 9601 192.135.80.34 (9 Apr 2002 13:36:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@binc.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 13:36:23 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.binc.net!koehler Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11027 In article , Malcolm MacArthur writes: > > Judging from the fact he talks about the PC competing with the > "'real' 11", he must be referring to the DEC Professional line of > PDP-11 based personal computers. It's based around a microprocessor > implementation of the PDP-11 (J-11??) and shipped with a not-very-good > menu-driven operating system called P/OS. Some people may cruelly > suggest that the initials stand for 'a quantity of excrement' ;-) Pro 350 were F-11, 380 were J-11. I've heard of a Pro 325 (a stripped down 350). > They look like Rainbows, and, rather oddly, use a Yale-type key switch for > the power. Funny, I've never seen a key switch on a Pro. Certainly not on my 350. > P/OS is a cut down version of RSX, with some extra features as well > (subdirectories come to mind). Development and CLI access was made > possible with the P/OS Toolkit. RT-11 was also available and some third > party unix called Venix. There are a couple of UNIX out there, but who'd want to ruin a perfectly good PDP with this stuff? Sparc 2 Suns go for about 2 bucks at hamfests. Anybody know which was the earliest version of P/OS to provide subdirectories and where I can download it? Currently I've got P/OS 2.0 (IIRC), and I need to update it anyway because I've got a later version of DECnet I want to load. > > -Malcolm (Proud owner of a Professional 380, 512 KW core (well, OK, > they're DRAMS...), P/OS (unfortunately. Want RSX. Anyone know how to make > it work? :) and Venix (requires a hard drive swap)). ###### From: Alan Greig Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Message-ID: References: <2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 17:23:23 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.132.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 1018369510 62.252.132.80 (Tue, 09 Apr 2002 17:25:10 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 17:25:10 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!telocity-west!TELOCITY!hub1.meganetnews.com!hub1.nntpserver.com!easynews!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!supernews.com!194.168.222.15.MISMATCH!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11031 On 8 Apr 2002 20:28:20 GMT, Malcolm MacArthur wrote: > >DCL agrees: >$ call dcl sexy >%DCL-E-INVCALL, invalid CALL nesting structure or data inconsistency >detected :-) >... which isn't surprising, considering that with UCX 1.0 you had to pay >for something the Unix people were bundling for free (and UCX probably >wasn't as good). What I guess no-one realised (and it's easy to see with Never mind Unix. Tenex/TOPS-20 had Arpanet support built into the operating system back around 1970 >hindsight, which of course has 20/20 vision...) is the extent to which >networking computers and getting them to talk to each other would become >just as important as the computers themselves... But that was exactly what DEC computers were doing back then. It was interesting that, in the early 80s, DEC provided online Internet support for TOPS-20 but not VMS. A DEC-20 called something like market.lcg.dec.com. In fact .dec.com may even have been the very first ".COM" DEC had no excuses for the lack of internet support other than arrogance. >> -- >> Alan >> > >-Malcolm. > >Subtract nine for e-mail (anti-spam measure) ###### Message-ID: <3CB32065.901156FA@videotron.ca> From: JF Mezei X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 13:10:00 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.202.148.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@videotron.ca X-Trace: weber.videotron.net 1018371785 24.202.148.20 (Tue, 09 Apr 2002 13:03:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 13:03:05 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!weber.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10998 Eric Smith wrote: > I think the initial RX01 design would have been more complicated and > expensive if it had been designed to support formatting, so it was > simply a cost-cutting measure. Did Digital actually design and build the diskette drives ? I would have though that they would have simply oem'd them and put their onw board with their own firmware and interface on them. Also, someone told me that the diskette drives on MACs (whi have the ability to eject) are pretty standard and it is just a question of Windows not having the right software to tell the standard diskette drives to "eject". Is that true ? ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 20 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <8XFs8.302683$Gf.27510358@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 12:56:20 CDT X-Trace: sv3-C66Uw3vtwEIRoipDd+9nGum4qZLr1epd8QKmr2Z/ClOa0Om21t2eVqhlNEIGVbnKTgrDiddfjrGr0oN!d79tuUtj3n1jkgBSYcH/y8SWZxY3bIBaJ7ksbqVDw4Qv2kVIF01qsAeeK3pi8blHC9qwFuwe+xsv!ba+Sd7vZdgv31V9Es+dRRKo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 17:56:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer!btnet!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10987 "Bob Koehler" wrote in message news:yo6H3V3t0yHC@eisner.encompasserve.org... ... > Anybody know which was the earliest version of P/OS to provide > subdirectories As best I can remember I added that in V3 to support multi-workstation servers (and in the process multi-user workstations). and where I can download it? Sorry. But weren't there some references earlier in this thread to that? - bill ###### Message-ID: <3CB323DA.AB81DABB@ins-msi.com> From: Jeff Campbell Organization: INS-MSI Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> <55f85d77.0204090332.1cfbc83c@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 18:06:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.190.8.74 X-Trace: news 1018375578 209.190.8.74 (Tue, 09 Apr 2002 14:06:18 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 14:06:18 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!dfw-feed.news.verio.net!news!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10993 Patrick Young wrote: > > Jeff Campbell wrote in message news:<3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com>... > > > RX01, RX02 and RX50 subsystems cannot format their media. > > RX01 was a really screwed up mess - I can remember unsoldering and > swapping those unreliable PROMS in it to get it working. > > It always reminds me of an Apple II floppy in just how > non standard it was. > > RX02 could be formatted.... > > .FORMAT DY: > > from the RT-11 days :-) > > IIRC you could (re)format RX01 single density media for the RX01 > on the RX02: > > .FORMAT DY:/SINGLE > > Yup, _just like_ VMS you can leave out the unit number and have 0 > assumed :-) The RT-11 format command does NOT format RX02 diskettes. The physical track format already exists. Degauss an unimportant diskette and try it. 8-) Jeff Campbell n8wxs@arrl.net ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> <3CB32065.901156FA@videotron.ca> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 09 Apr 2002 18:04:11 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 9 Apr 2002 18:12:15 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11023 I wrote: > I think the initial RX01 design would have been more complicated and > expensive if it had been designed to support formatting, so it was > simply a cost-cutting measure. JF Mezei writes: > Did Digital actually design and build the diskette drives ? I would have > though that they would have simply oem'd them and put their onw board with > their own firmware and interface on them. They bought floppy drives from Control Data Corporation (CDC). But that has *nothing* to do with whether it would have cost more to provide the additional microcode etc. to support formatting disks. This was several years before LSI floppy controller chips were available. It would have taken more PROMs for microcode storage and more SSI/MSI chips for the other necessary support. Other vendors (notably DSD) did seize the opportunity to offer compatible floppy disk subsystems that supported formatting. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> <55f85d77.0204090332.1cfbc83c@posting.google.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 09 Apr 2002 18:05:09 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 9 Apr 2002 18:13:13 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11026 P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) writes: > RX02 could be formatted.... > > .FORMAT DY: > > from the RT-11 days :-) That doesn't format the disk. It just converts a formatted RX01 into a formatted RX02, by rewriting the data. The disk still has to start out formatted. ###### From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 10 Apr 2002 08:54:58 -0500 Organization: Berbee Information Networks Corporation Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> , JF Mezei writes: > Eric Smith wrote: > > Also, someone told me that the diskette drives on MACs (whi have the ability > to eject) are pretty standard and it is just a question of Windows not having > the right software to tell the standard diskette drives to "eject". Is that > true ? My kid's iMac has a third party floppy drive which ignores the Mac OS software eject. It uses a button in front. It was $10 cheaper than one which implemented the eject. We don't use it muchm anyhow, didn't get one for my wife's iMac. Ejecting by s/w control is a good idea on Mac because the OS tends to cache read and write data. Ejecting by hardware is good enough on PCs because the OS does not cache writes to floppies. ###### From: "Don Chiasson" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:07:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.43.220.117 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1018451224 24.43.220.117 (Wed, 10 Apr 2002 11:07:04 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 11:07:04 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!nntp5.savvis.net!nntp.cifnet.net!teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!66.185.86.143.MISMATCH!news03.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!12dc6cf53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11011 "Bob Koehler" wrote in message news:sf7jfh8NrHBN@eisner.encompasserve.org... [snip....] > Ejecting by s/w control is a good idea on Mac because the > OS tends to cache read and write data. Ejecting by hardware > is good enough on PCs because the OS does not cache > writes to floppies. > Good design would not let you eject a floppy while any file on the floppy is open. Doing so would likely cause something bad to happen. Don e-mail: it's not not, it's hot. ###### From: "Fred Kleinsorge" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:09:35 -0400 Organization: IX Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.32.248.182 X-Trace: lead.zk3.dec.com 1018458941 320293 16.32.248.182 (10 Apr 2002 17:15:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: iass@ajo.zk3.dec.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:15:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!easynews!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.compaq.com!ajo.zk3.dec.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11048 My favorite - on P/OS if you took the floppy out while there was a file open, a message popped up that said "PUT THAT FLOPPY BACK!". Don Chiasson wrote in message ... > >"Bob Koehler" wrote in message >news:sf7jfh8NrHBN@eisner.encompasserve.org... >[snip....] >> Ejecting by s/w control is a good idea on Mac because the >> OS tends to cache read and write data. Ejecting by hardware >> is good enough on PCs because the OS does not cache >> writes to floppies. >> >Good design would not let you eject a floppy while any file on >the floppy is open. Doing so would likely cause something bad >to happen. > >Don >e-mail: it's not not, it's hot. > > > > ###### Message-ID: <3CB4A8FA.2000500@iee.org> From: "antonio.carlini" Reply-To: arcarlini@iee.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-GB; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:04:58 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.254.134.203 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 1018472734 62.254.134.203 (Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:05:34 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:05:34 BST Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-xfer2.newshosting.com!news2.euro.net!194.168.222.15.MISMATCH!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11076 Eric Smith wrote: > I very much doubt that either piracy or interchange was the motivation. > I think the initial RX01 design would have been more complicated and I don't know about the RX01, but with the RX50 the initial design team claimed that it could not meet the required tolerances when formatting. The details were not specified but it sounded believable. The motivations was emphatically stated *not* to be just a desire to gouge the customer. This was stated in the early 90s so perhaps that long after the event, memories may have faded. Whether later design teams found a technical workaround that allowed the RX50 to reliably format or whether they just winged it, was never clear to me. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> <3CB4A8FA.2000500@iee.org> <3CB4AFD6.93BEF206@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 33 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <_c2t8.15697$_A.1438396@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:33:46 CDT X-Trace: sv3-pNvpMzp9We4GRy40f3tYXdAEyuPwcHhnFBLMyiRrEdmDOgtWvCeHQ8Ps9kEhrqchSDBtsfslMBVMc6U!aqakh4tKZuNfsAikf9F3wDFEJdwgSLSmpx+k3mDIyFRHu98NROMB9psSDT1fYia8qCiL1hZr+cdb!+kgPZhO6c50MBILILHfO X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 21:33:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11083 "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:3CB4AFD6.93BEF206@videotron.ca... > "antonio.carlini" wrote: > > This was stated in the early 90s so perhaps > > that long after the event, memories may > > have faded. > > > > Whether later design teams found a > > technical workaround that allowed the > > RX50 to reliably format or whether they > > just winged it, was never clear to me. > > > Considering that personal computers were able to format diskettes from around > 1984 when the 3.5" format became popular, and were able to format the true 5" > floppies , and prior to that, word processors and bigger machines were able to > do 8" floppies, I find it very hard to believe that they could not reliably > format a diskette when they designed the digital diskette drives. Roger Ivie posted a response in IIRC comp.sys.dec (and perhaps not included here) stating that rotational speed tolerance was indeed the problem - had to be within 3% for format (else would over-run if it was spinning too fast), whereas the drive as shipped was only speced to within 10%. - bill ###### Message-ID: <3CB4AFD6.93BEF206@videotron.ca> From: JF Mezei X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> <3CB4A8FA.2000500@iee.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:34:18 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.202.148.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@videotron.ca X-Trace: wagner.videotron.net 1018474039 24.202.148.20 (Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:27:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:27:19 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!wagner.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11044 "antonio.carlini" wrote: > This was stated in the early 90s so perhaps > that long after the event, memories may > have faded. > > Whether later design teams found a > technical workaround that allowed the > RX50 to reliably format or whether they > just winged it, was never clear to me. Considering that personal computers were able to format diskettes from around 1984 when the 3.5" format became popular, and were able to format the true 5" floppies , and prior to that, word processors and bigger machines were able to do 8" floppies, I find it very hard to believe that they could not reliably format a diskette when they designed the digital diskette drives. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 10 Apr 2002 21:42:35 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1018474955 76666 10.0.0.43 (10 Apr 2002 21:42:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Apr 2002 21:42:35 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!tethys.csu.net!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11066 In article , Bob Koehler wrote: > My kid's iMac has a third party floppy drive which ignores the Mac OS > software eject. It uses a button in front. It was $10 cheaper than > one which implemented the eject. We don't use it muchm anyhow, > didn't get one for my wife's iMac. The HP Integral had a manual eject button, but you had to unlock it under software control, otherwise it just sat there. I've also seen eject buttons that were completely disconnected from the drive, they just sent a signal to a program that initiated the eject. CDROM drives, of course, all seem to work that way. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Message-ID: <3CB4BB0E.5030908@iee.org> From: "antonio.carlini" Reply-To: arcarlini@iee.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-GB; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:22:06 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.254.134.203 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news8-gui.server.ntli.net 1018477361 62.254.134.203 (Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:22:41 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:22:41 BST Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-x2.support.nl!news2.euro.net!194.168.222.15.MISMATCH!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news8-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11078 Alan Greig wrote: > But that was exactly what DEC computers were doing back then. It was > interesting that, in the early 80s, DEC provided online Internet > support for TOPS-20 but not VMS. A DEC-20 called something like > market.lcg.dec.com. I remember it as "mrktng" but it was a long time ago ... >In fact .dec.com may even have been the very first > ".COM" I've seen claims that DEC was one of the first, if not the very first, commercial entity on the net. The 16.0.0.0 class A address would lend some credence to that. (At the time of the COMPAQ purchase, there was speculation that the class A address alone was worth half a billion dollars ...) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org ###### From: Mike Ross Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Message-ID: References: <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> <3CB32065.901156FA@videotron.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:28:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.108.217.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyc.rr.com 1018481321 66.108.217.161 (Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:28:41 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:28:41 EDT Organization: Road Runner - NYC Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!sfo2-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-out.nyc.rr.com!typhoon.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11081 On Tue, 09 Apr 2002 13:10:00 -0400, JF Mezei wrote: >Eric Smith wrote: >> I think the initial RX01 design would have been more complicated and >> expensive if it had been designed to support formatting, so it was >> simply a cost-cutting measure. > >Did Digital actually design and build the diskette drives ? I would have >though that they would have simply oem'd them and put their onw board with >their own firmware and interface on them. > >Also, someone told me that the diskette drives on MACs (whi have the ability >to eject) are pretty standard and it is just a question of Windows not having >the right software to tell the standard diskette drives to "eject". Is that >true ? False. To eject a disk without manual intervention requires a servo-assisted eject mechanism. On the Mac (or at least early Macs), Apple took a standard Sony drive mechanism and added their own motorised diskette carrier. Since PCs have never supported auto-eject, no PC drives have that motorised mechanism. No relation to Windows or any other OS. Mike http://www.corestore.org Rangers Catering Corps - 'we boil for the One, we fry for the One' ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 11 Apr 2002 11:47:06 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 31 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87wuvelww5.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com> <3CB4BB0E.5030908@iee.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1018498508 30973 202.154.80.9 (11 Apr 2002 04:15:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 04:15:08 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p246.qv1-02.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11059 "antonio.carlini" writes: > Alan Greig wrote: > > > But that was exactly what DEC computers were doing back then. It was > > interesting that, in the early 80s, DEC provided online Internet > > support for TOPS-20 but not VMS. A DEC-20 called something like > > market.lcg.dec.com. > I remember it as "mrktng" but it was a long time ago ... No, 'market'. It and gatekeeper where the original DEC machines on the internet. > >In fact .dec.com may even have been the very first ".COM" > I've seen claims that DEC was one of the first, if not the very > first, commercial entity on the net. The 16.0.0.0 class A address > would lend some credence to that. (At the time of the COMPAQ > purchase, there was speculation that the class A address alone was > worth half a billion dollars ...) DEC and BBN I think. Possibly Honeywell as well. Who where the early left coast .coms? -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> From: Dowe Keller X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Date: 11 Apr 2002 00:44:40 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.85 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.85 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1018515570 206.169.219.85 (11 Apr 2002 01:59:30 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11047 koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > Ejecting by s/w control is a good idea on Mac because the OS tends to > cache read and write data. Ejecting by hardware is good enough on PCs > because the OS does not cache writes to floppies. Which OS, I know of quite a few PC OSes: Minix, Linux, Zenix, Hurd, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, CP/M, M$-DOS, Windows, FreeDOS, BSDi, Solaris, OS/2, BeOS... and I probably forgot a few. -- dowe@sierratel.com "MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years of careful development." (By dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca) ###### From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 11 Apr 2002 08:10:27 -0500 Organization: Berbee Information Networks Corporation Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> , JF Mezei writes: > > Considering that personal computers were able to format diskettes from around > 1984 when the 3.5" format became popular, and were able to format the true 5" > floppies , and prior to that, word processors and bigger machines were able to > do 8" floppies, I find it very hard to believe that they could not reliably > format a diskette when they designed the digital diskette drives. Interesting. I never had to format an 8 inch floppy. They were all VAX console media, or VT78 media. They came from DEC properly formatted and stayed that way. I think this was the model DEC was following when they didn't see a need to provide formatting capability on the Pro series. Then the IBM PC took off and everybody was formatting everything. ###### From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 11 Apr 2002 08:13:02 -0500 Organization: Berbee Information Networks Corporation Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3CAB652E.714BDE2F@videotron.ca> <3CAB895B.D0AD917@videotron.ca> <3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com> , Dowe Keller writes: > koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > >> Ejecting by s/w control is a good idea on Mac because the OS tends to >> cache read and write data. Ejecting by hardware is good enough on PCs >> because the OS does not cache writes to floppies. > > Which OS, I know of quite a few PC OSes: Yeah, but the stupid things were designed to support MS-DOS. If you use a real OS you just have to be carefull about those things. ###### From: Joel Gallun Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 11 Apr 2002 10:05:51 -0400 Organization: AOL Time Warner Lines: 14 Sender: snake@severn.office.aol.com Message-ID: References: <2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com> <3CB4BB0E.5030908@iee.org> <87wuvelww5.fsf@prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: severn.office.aol.com X-Trace: inntp-m1.news.aol.com 1018533955 6554 10.0.34.253 (11 Apr 2002 14:05:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@aol.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:05:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.us.prserv.net!prserv.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!nntp-internal.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11073 Paul Repacholi writes: > > I've seen claims that DEC was one of the first, if not the very > > first, commercial entity on the net. > > DEC and BBN I think. Possibly Honeywell as well. BBN was before DEC -- think about it > Who where the early left coast .coms? SRI was one of them Joel ###### From: mogul@mogul.pa.dec.com (Jeffrey Mogul) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:17:46 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Compaq Western Research Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com> <3CB4BB0E.5030908@iee.org> <87wuvelww5.fsf@prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mogul.pa.dec.com X-Trace: src-news-too.pa.dec.com 1018570666 479838 16.1.80.52 (12 Apr 2002 00:17:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@src-news.pa.dec.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:17:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: xrn 9.00 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!telocity-west!TELOCITY!204.94.211.44!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.compaq.com!src-news.pa.dec.com!mogul.pa.dec.com!mogul Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11064 In article <87wuvelww5.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi writes: |> > I remember it as "mrktng" but it was a long time ago ... |> No, 'market'. It and gatekeeper where the original DEC machines |> on the internet. Actually, decwrl came before gatekeeper. I checked my email logs; the first mention that I can find regarding gatekeeper was on 29 July 1988 (all I have is the Subject line of that message, but I think it was related to setting up the system.) I have an archived email from "xxxx@decwrl.dec.com" dated 28 January 1986, and mail from "xxxx@decwrl.ARPA" on 25 April 1985. Since I started at WRL in July 1986, I don't have extensive personal logs that would help establish when the first WRL machine was on the Internet (although that could not have been before April, 1982). |> > >In fact .dec.com may even have been the very first ".COM" |> |> > I've seen claims that DEC was one of the first, if not the very |> > first, commercial entity on the net. The 16.0.0.0 class A address |> > would lend some credence to that. (At the time of the COMPAQ |> > purchase, there was speculation that the class A address alone was |> > worth half a billion dollars ...) |> |> DEC and BBN I think. Possibly Honeywell as well. |> |> Who where the early left coast .coms? I'm pretty sure that the original DEC.COM registration came from WRL, in Palo Alto, and hence we may have been the first "left coast" .com on that basis :-) I'm not sure that it's possible to infer whether BBN or XEROX or DEC first became a .com based on the order of our Class A network numbers. We do have a list of "firsts" floating around that claims that DEC was the "first computer company to list an Internet domain" (1985). But I'm not how to verify that, or whether the person who came up with this factoid considers BBN or Xerox to be "computer" companies. -Jeff ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:31:11 -0700 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com> <3CB4BB0E.5030908@iee.org> <87wuvelww5.fsf@prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva0.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp6.u.washington.edu 1018578674 44072 (None) 140.142.17.37 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva0.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11054 On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Jeffrey Mogul wrote: > I'm pretty sure that the original DEC.COM registration came from > WRL, in Palo Alto, and hence we may have been the first "left coast" > .com on that basis :-) DEC-MARLBORO was on the ARPAnet in 1979 at the very latest, long before DECWRL existed. Its name changed from DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA to MARLBORO.DEC.COM sometime between August 5, 1985 and October 14, 1985. That neither proves nor disproves Jeff's claim since Jeff says that his first "decwrl.dec.com" was in January 1986. But I'm pretty sure that it was the TOPS-20 folks that registered DEC.COM. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: "Mike McMahon" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com> <3CB4BB0E.5030908@iee.org> <87wuvelww5.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 5 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:43:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.96.243.27 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net 1018705428 65.96.243.27 (Sat, 13 Apr 2002 09:43:48 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 09:43:48 EDT Organization: ATT Broadband Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.ne.ipsvc.net!cyclone.ne.ipsvc.net!65.96.0.182!typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11093 Here is one of the places that attempts to resolve the question of which was the first .COM registration: http://www.tbtf.com/archive/0104.html (search down for "history of domain names"). ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Mon, 15 Apr 02 11:45:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaTRXNuNeMdWbG2uzsoNS+kgC08gzCGircLWe1t7w2M47OvPPn1BdzD X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Apr 2002 15:09:48 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-13 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11098 In article , "Bill Todd" wrote: > >"Malcolm MacArthur" wrote in message >news:Xns91EADAD76CCA8malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157... >> Alan Greig wrote in >> news:2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com: > >.... > >> > "VMS Systems are not normally connected to the Internet" >> > - Digital UCX V1 documentation. >> >> ... which isn't surprising, considering that with UCX 1.0 you had to pay >> for something the Unix people were bundling for free (and UCX probably >> wasn't as good). What I guess no-one realised (and it's easy to see with >> hindsight, which of course has 20/20 vision...) is the extent to which >> networking computers and getting them to talk to each other would become >> just as important as the computers themselves... > >Sigh. DEC realized this more and earlier than just about anyone else. Right. JMF's first project (when he was hired in 1970) was to get lots of computers talking to each other at ORNL. > .. What >they failed to realize (especially after adopting the "VAX is the future!" >attitude) was that they couldn't dictate which computers were important to >talk with well and which were not. That was a side effect of the DECnet biz. It took them years and years to decide on specs. By the time, a flavor was ready to ship it was ten years too late. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 17 Apr 02 07:38:50 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa87Pw86oZ5TQRC4x8Y8RqQpFW6IwM016RVLJAUPxGti+UqmIwimqKG X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 2002 11:03:19 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-236-74 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11124 In article <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com>, Patrick Sweeney wrote: >Digital failed to realize that improvement in >personal computers would cause them >to compete with "minicomputers" that would seal its doom. This wasn't it at all. Those of us on the -10 had no problem using local computers to access mainframes and we were waiting for the day when we could have a PDP-10 on our desktop at home. We just never thought that the technology would get small as fast as it did. PCs in everybody's home was a huge main frame business opportunity. Hint: Compuserve. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 21:19:02 -0400 From: Patrick Sweeney X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 X-Authenticated-User: unmasterc X-Comments: This message was posted through Usenet.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Usenet.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Report: Report abuse to "abuse@Usenet.com" X-Abuse-Info: Forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) X-Trace: news.usenet.com Organization: Usenet.com - #1 Newsgroups service on the planet! - http://www.Usenet.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!news.usenet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11120 I just saw so many names of old friends and co-workers that I had add my thoughts, if only for the historical record. I helped install both the first and last DECSYSTEM-20's in the New York metropolitan area. My involvement with DEC as student, employee. or customer starts with the PDP-8 and continued to the bitter end. Digital failed to realize that improvement in personal computers would cause them to compete with "minicomputers" that would seal its doom. This blindness was caused by arrogance: its own success (mostly), a failure to look outside of itself for ideas, and, I've come to conclude, too much clout was given to people whose computing experience was formed in the 1960's and had too little of a forward-looking vision (i.e. too much trust in people over 40). Companies that fail to learn why Digital failed in the end are doomed to repeat that experience. Pat Sweeney Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 36 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 21:13:19 CDT X-Trace: sv3-RPGm3rS74ywAD9xOPtv4sUb2FbKNdNIJWzkQ3uTthE4ZyXD3RAWqgcl2bNHoOrxSWx849kBflof1NEK!vIuF7OUsn2mc5qgyUUKHEv1XJ9ig1aIiPY6jAN5i8JLcy9tZp+XXWmtPvx2aBnBFm8mQD83t0jD/!lnRO+xuoXvbH5/UIAcbo X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 02:13:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11134 "Patrick Sweeney" wrote in message news:3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com... ... > Digital failed to realize that improvement in personal computers would cause them > to compete with "minicomputers" that would seal its doom. Something which may have been at least debatable when the PC first came out, but had become absolutely clear by the time the 32-bit 80386 was released in 1985. > > This blindness was caused by arrogance: its own success (mostly), a failure to > look outside of itself for ideas, It didn't have to look outside itself: there were people inside warning it, and not softly. and, I've > come to conclude, too much clout was given to people whose computing experience > was formed in the 1960's and had > too little of a forward-looking vision (i.e. too much trust in people over 40). I left DEC at the age of 39, but it wasn't only those older than I was who were blind. - bill ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 17 Apr 2002 13:41:50 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019050910 52031 10.0.0.43 (17 Apr 2002 13:41:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 2002 13:41:50 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11130 In article <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, Bill Todd wrote: >Something which may have been at least debatable when the PC first came out, >but had become absolutely clear by the time the 32-bit 80386 was released in >1985. The 68000 should have been a strong enough hint, really. By 1982 there were killer micros good enough that DEC was running ads against them, and Cromemco were taking DEC ads that showed them "busting" Cromemco boards and using them in their own marketing... and Cromemco was doing it with multi-CPU Z-80s! Then there were Plexus, Fortune Systems, ... and Sun ... -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 17 Apr 2002 11:10:45 -0400 Organization: Columbia University Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: watsol.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 1019056247 22034 128.59.39.139 (17 Apr 2002 15:10:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 2002 15:10:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed.sjc.globix.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!bstnma1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!news.columbia.edu!news-not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11128 In article <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com>, Patrick Sweeney wrote: : I just saw so many names of old friends and co-workers that I had add my : thoughts, if only for the historical record. I helped install both the : first and last DECSYSTEM-20's in the New York metropolitan area. : Including our first one in 1977, hi Pat! Was ours the first? Which was the last? : ... : : This blindness was caused by arrogance: its own success (mostly), a failure : to look outside of itself for ideas, and, I've come to conclude, too much : clout was given to people whose computing experience was formed in the : 1960's and had too little of a forward-looking vision (i.e. too much trust : in people over 40). : I don't know... I think the salient principal is Gresham's Law: "the bad drives out the good". Sure DEC had some lousy management and stupid ideas, but eventually cheap mass-market component-based consumer computing was bound to drive any soup-to-nuts engineering company like DEC out of business anyway. And even if it didn't, what's the fun in selling beige boxes that are just like everybody else's? (I suppose IBM must be the "exception that proves the rule" -- maybe with better management DEC could evolved in a similar direction, but how much room can there be for multiple non-beige-box companies in the computer market these days?) Our problem today is that there is no longer a distinction between serious computing and home entertainment. One model fits all, even when it is outrageously inappropriate. The vast majority of corporate, government, and academic consumers would rather "standardize" on junky throwaway PCs for all the well-known reasons than pay a premium for good stuff that really works and for which the vendor can be held responsible. The fact that this has a momental cost in human productivity is of little concern because nowadays everything is done through accounting trickery. - Frank (still here) P.S. For further wallowing in old times see: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/ http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/dec20.html See if you can add anything! ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 23 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 10:38:23 CDT X-Trace: sv3-x8qRU7VgGPAgp5TZ+4qYIBB+AS8mUVdziDK7NG2AzFVJnsb26dkeNJmoTF3LevJFqokfJqQzuCOzmYB!cyaDdJXR79hDT2u7grcJG/CAAcpvDIl3krcctKD2wL4OuiE7FH0pvqtby1MD+r4MQ+4xM4s35yc2!zMAiB1zEg7bvH6up+QyyGA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:38:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!64.42.15.2!HSNX.atgi.net!news-xfer2.newshosting.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11117 "Peter da Silva" wrote in message news:a9ju2u$1ipv$1@citadel.in.taronga.com... > In article <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, > Bill Todd wrote: > >Something which may have been at least debatable when the PC first came out, > >but had become absolutely clear by the time the 32-bit 80386 was released in > >1985. > > The 68000 should have been a strong enough hint, really. Not necessarily, though it certainly made some of us sit up and take notice. DEC was itself developing 32-bit single-chip processors (and already had 16-bit ones), so the idea that other people might start using them in minicomputers wasn't nearly the threat that using them in far cheaper 'industry-standard' PCs was. - bill ###### From: "Fred Kleinsorge" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:21:24 -0400 Organization: IX Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net> <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.32.248.182 X-Trace: lead.zk3.dec.com 1019060825 157431 16.32.248.182 (17 Apr 2002 16:27:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: iass@ajo.zk3.dec.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:27:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.compaq.com!ajo.zk3.dec.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11122 Holy crap. Pat? Is that you? Where've you been? It's been a *long* time. What's new? Patrick Sweeney wrote in message <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com>... >I just saw so many names of old friends and co-workers that I had add my thoughts, >if only for >the historical record. I helped install both the first and last DECSYSTEM-20's in >the New York metropolitan area. >My involvement with DEC as student, employee. or customer starts with the PDP-8 >and continued to the bitter end. > >Digital failed to realize that improvement in personal computers would cause them >to compete with "minicomputers" that would seal its doom. > >This blindness was caused by arrogance: its own success (mostly), a failure to >look outside of itself for ideas, and, I've >come to conclude, too much clout was given to people whose computing experience >was formed in the 1960's and had >too little of a forward-looking vision (i.e. too much trust in people over 40). > >Companies that fail to learn why Digital failed in the end are doomed to repeat >that experience. > >Pat Sweeney > > > > > > Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services >---------------------------------------------------------- > ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** >---------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.usenet.com ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 17 Apr 2002 18:11:28 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019067088 66523 10.0.0.43 (17 Apr 2002 18:11:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 2002 18:11:28 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11129 In article , Bill Todd wrote: >Not necessarily, though it certainly made some of us sit up and take notice. >DEC was itself developing 32-bit single-chip processors (and already had >16-bit ones), so the idea that other people might start using them in >minicomputers wasn't nearly the threat that using them in far cheaper >'industry-standard' PCs was. TRS-80 model 16, released at the end of 1981. By the time the 80386 came out there were possibly more people using Xenix-68K on the Model 16/6000 than were using any DEC operating system on any platform. Certainly there were more Xenix-68K seats than all the other UNIX versions put together. If you look back in Google's Usenet archive, you can find all kinds of messages from 1981 and 1982 from peole working on putting together 68000-based home computers. And considerable debate over why the IBM-PC was using the 8088 instead... By the 1982 NCC it was pretty obvious that high performance personal computers were just around the corner. I remember talking to people at the show, and saying there was no point in buying an IBM PC... within two years you'd be able to buy a 68000-based or Z8000-based system running UNIX for about the same price. Of course I was mistaken about a couple of things... first, AT&T never did figure out the trick of cheap licensing. Second, by the time 68000 based systems capable of running a decent UNIX came out, the IBM-PC type machine (IBM and clones) had dropped considerably as well, and people kept buying them. Still, the 68000 *should* have set off the warning bells at DEC. A few key messages: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=anews.Aucbvax.2667&output=gplain http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bnews.yale-com.736&output=gplain http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bnews.sri-arpa.511&output=gplain http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bnews.sri-unix.3195&output=gplain |As for pure speed, the IBM PC w/ coherent is faster than an 11/23. |This makes it a quite adaquate single user system. I think that |the IBM PC and the 32:16 are both in the range where memory will |be the bottleneck, not pure processor speed. Also, the speed of |the two machines seem to be close enough that you will be able to |hang more users off the machine you can put more memory in. I think |the IBM PC wins that race, but I'm not sure. Once again, would |somebody out there give me the missing info? | |Lastly, for micro computer unix systems, if you are worried about |processor speed, you have to consider Zenix. Said z8000 system is |faster than an 11/44. (Mike Meyer, Sep 1982.) -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 17 Apr 2002 18:18:11 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019067491 66869 10.0.0.43 (17 Apr 2002 18:18:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 2002 18:18:11 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11127 In article , Frank da Cruz wrote: >P.S. For further wallowing in old times see: > > http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/ > http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/dec20.html > >See if you can add anything! How about http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=anews.Acornell.2631&output=gplain http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bnews.sri-arpa.1154&output=gplain -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 11:39:16 -0700 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva1.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp6.u.washington.edu 1019068758 103270 (None) 140.142.17.37 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva1.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11138 On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Those of us on the -10 had no problem > using local computers to access mainframes and we were waiting > for the day when we could have a PDP-10 on our desktop at home. So, Barb, now that it is quite feasible, when are you going to do it? :-) > PCs in everybody's home was a huge main frame business opportunity. > Hint: Compuserve. Which, of course, used PDP-10s with their own TOPS-10 variant for many years. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 47 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:50:23 CDT X-Trace: sv3-wUMA4LxbDPFdPO95W3vYsJbCHZNTwPIkFA9i/WNONb9mU2asRacz+sBA4vhXk88TnAyG39I0k2KJDCD!X0mg4OPyJp1ZOo/62Upn53uDmkPiyMfCP44BnQMCtKW+yPxLgD4KF3kHn+yWj9NrQpc/atldjUfi!emMr6j0EuMxWFFJGOd+AVA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:50:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!telocity-west!TELOCITY!hub1.nntpserver.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11135 "Peter da Silva" wrote in message news:a9kdsg$20ur$1@citadel.in.taronga.com... > In article , > Bill Todd wrote: > >Not necessarily, though it certainly made some of us sit up and take notice. > >DEC was itself developing 32-bit single-chip processors (and already had > >16-bit ones), so the idea that other people might start using them in > >minicomputers wasn't nearly the threat that using them in far cheaper > >'industry-standard' PCs was. > > TRS-80 model 16, released at the end of 1981. By the time the 80386 came out > there were possibly more people using Xenix-68K on the Model 16/6000 than > were using any DEC operating system on any platform. Certainly there were > more Xenix-68K seats than all the other UNIX versions put together. > > If you look back in Google's Usenet archive, you can find all kinds of messages > from 1981 and 1982 from peole working on putting together 68000-based home > computers. And considerable debate over why the IBM-PC was using the 8088 > instead... > > By the 1982 NCC it was pretty obvious that high performance personal > computers were just around the corner. I remember talking to people at > the show, and saying there was no point in buying an IBM PC... within > two years you'd be able to buy a 68000-based or Z8000-based system running > UNIX for about the same price. > > Of course I was mistaken about a couple of things... first, AT&T never > did figure out the trick of cheap licensing. Second, by the time 68000 > based systems capable of running a decent UNIX came out, the IBM-PC type > machine (IBM and clones) had dropped considerably as well, and people > kept buying them. > > Still, the 68000 *should* have set off the warning bells at DEC. I stand by my statement: it certainly was interesting, but hindsight makes it pretty clear that what I said DEC should have been most worried about (the implications of the 386), and what worried me most back then, was in fact what it needed to be most worried about. - bill ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:03:45 -0700 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva1.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp6.u.washington.edu 1019070228 36246 (None) 140.142.17.39 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva1.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11137 On 17 Apr 2002, Peter da Silva wrote: > The 68000 should have been a strong enough hint, really. By 1982 there were > killer micros good enough that DEC was running ads against them And some of us felt that DEC should either be building a PDP-10 based supercomputer or a PDP-10 based micro. Jupiter tried to be something in the middle. The result was something that had none of the advantages and all of the disadvantages. Plus some unique disadvantages; both the Jupiter and Venus projects were in shambles, and it was only possible to rescue one (Venus became the VAX 8600). There really was no "middle". VAX's entry into mainframes lasted only a few years. Nor, as it turned out, did supercomputers have a future. This would have surprised me in the early 1980s. I knew that processors on a chip were the way of the future, but I thought that massively parallel processors would have been the rule by now. It wasn't until the late 1980s that I realized that distributed systems were going to win. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:14:44 -0700 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva1.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1019070886 28336 (None) 140.142.17.40 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva1.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11136 On 17 Apr 2002, Frank da Cruz wrote: > The vast majority of corporate, government, and > academic consumers would rather "standardize" on junky throwaway PCs for all > the well-known reasons than pay a premium for good stuff that really works > and for which the vendor can be held responsible. I agree with you on everything but that last part. I don't recall there ever being a world in "which the vendor can be held responsible." For all of the failings of Intel and Microsoft, the fact is that computers today are far more reliable and secure than what we were using 20 years ago. I remember when three-digit hour uptimes were cause for adding an exclamation point to the printed output. I also remember some truly amazing security bugs. Say what you will, but the ways to crack Microsoft software today are *much* more complex and require much more thought than how software was cracked 20 years ago. And vendors didn't take responsibility back then either. It could be months before a CMCO/CTCO came out from Digital. In some ways, the ARPAnet TOPS-20 mailing list was an early precursor to BUGTRAQ as it got word out on security problems much faster. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 17 Apr 2002 16:22:57 -0400 Organization: Columbia University Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsol.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 1019074979 3948 128.59.39.139 (17 Apr 2002 20:22:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 2002 20:22:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!nntp1.hal-pc.org!dfw-feed.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!news.columbia.edu!news-not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11140 In article , Peter da Silva wrote: : In article , : Frank da Cruz wrote: : >P.S. For further wallowing in old times see: : > : > http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/ : > http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/dec20.html : > : >See if you can add anything! : That was mainly for Pat -- who knows, he might have some old pictures of our DEC machine room... We certainly don't! I still can't believe nobody ever bothered to take pictures... : How about : : http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=anews.Acornell.2631&output=gplain : http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bnews.sri-arpa.1154&output=gplain : Amazing, old emails resurfacing from 20 years ago. It looks like Google can replace the Smithsonian Institution as "the nation's attic". I don't recall seeing the one from Cornell before -- is it too late to reply? Oh well, at least we solved the IBM PC hard disk problem :-) - Frank ###### From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 17 Apr 2002 17:11:18 -0400 Organization: Columbia University Lines: 76 Message-ID: References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsol.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 1019077882 6918 128.59.39.139 (17 Apr 2002 21:11:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 2002 21:11:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!news.columbia.edu!news-not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11141 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: : On 17 Apr 2002, Frank da Cruz wrote: : > The vast majority of corporate, government, and academic consumers would : > rather "standardize" on junky throwaway PCs for all the well-known reasons : > than pay a premium for good stuff that really works and for which the : > vendor can be held responsible. : : I agree with you on everything but that last part. : : I don't recall there ever being a world in "which the vendor can be held : responsible." For all of the failings of Intel and Microsoft, the fact is : that computers today are far more reliable and secure than what we were : using 20 years ago. : We were a big DEC customer and I thought we got pretty good service. We had source code, we had our SPRs answered, bugs fixed, computers fixed, we talked directly to the developers as well as the product managers, we got our changes into the Monitor and Exec, and we got lots of fun helicopter rides :-) I don't think you get that any more. Security? All I know is we had very few security incidents in the DEC-20 days -- and not for lack of people trying -- compared to the last couple years when the virus of the month takes over thousands of individual PCs, each of which then infects who-knows-how-many others, and each one of which must be fixed individually, over and over and over, until it's practically all that goes on. (There has been a lull the past couple months, but that's no guarantee it won't all start up again tomorrow.) : I remember when three-digit hour uptimes were cause for adding an : exclamation point to the printed output. : Well yeah, a big central computer could go down for extended periods sometimes, but DEC didn't blow us off when it happened -- they were on the spot. Once we had a backplane specialist here from Marlboro for a week going over every square millimeter with a microscope; he almost gave himself a stroke. Another time we had DEC's top power guy with all kinds of special test equipment, who eventually fixed our power. Whenever there was bad problem, they'd fly in people from all over. Of course they had their own air force... Once when our front ends were crashing left and right (a story in itself, having to do with VT100 smooth scrolling and Xon/Xoff) they sent the RSX20F guy down... I forget his name but we were warned not to mess with him, he was heavily armed... : And vendors didn't take responsibility back then either. It could be : months before a CMCO/CTCO came out from Digital. : We've had dozens, maybe hundreds, of solid, hard, totally reproducible show stopping bug reports into Microsoft for years. You have to PAY them to let you tell them about a bug so they can ignore it. Maybe I'm looking at the past through foggy lenses, but I don't think DEC (and IBM, etc) were as openly crass as today's companies. Well, sure, they wanted money -- and made truckloads of it -- but at the same time they had some integrity and some pride in engineering, compared to now when nobody takes responsibility for anything so when something doesn't work, either fix it yourself or live with it. Up until 1983 you could trust them. Or to put it another way -- am I wrong about this? -- companies like DEC cared about their customers and employees at least as much as about their shareholders, whereas now companies care ONLY about their shareholders and will happily trashcan a perfectly good product and lay off 20,000 loyal workers to keep their rich stockholders from getting upset. Ken Olsen used to pride himself on never laying people off. People laugh at that now. I'm always amused by all the talk, even today, on the DEC-oriented groups about DEC components and part numbers because we used to know what a computer was made of, what the pieces did, and how they worked. Nobody knows that stuff about modern computers -- they're assembled more or less at random from whatever undocumented no-name commodity pieces happened to be cheapest that day. And forget software -- there's nothing quite like Windows to make us feel like drivelling idiots. "Help, all my icons turned black!" People expect us to be able to help them because we're computer experts? Ha. - Frank ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Thu, 18 Apr 02 07:50:20 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZbYXSalnM9Y4H/JSUBmyfbeljfULwJGPTGo0fHtAV5M2M6KKwdvOmw X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2002 11:14:59 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-14 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11147 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: >On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> Those of us on the -10 had no problem >> using local computers to access mainframes and we were waiting >> for the day when we could have a PDP-10 on our desktop at home. > >So, Barb, now that it is quite feasible, when are you going to do it? :-) I don't have to. There are a number of 'guys' doing the work. And there are other guys doing my 1984 proposal which doesn't force all users to learn a new operating system just because the architecture has changed. If I was really going to run a biz that built a desktop PDP-10, I'd get Mike to do it. > >> PCs in everybody's home was a huge main frame business opportunity. >> Hint: Compuserve. > >Which, of course, used PDP-10s with their own TOPS-10 variant for many >years. The imporant point here is that we shipped everything one needed to modify it all. We never figured out how to "support" such things but we certainly did not make things so difficult that the hardware customer couldn't do his own thing. This is what is rankling my craw. How in the hell is the computing biz going to train the newbies such that great strides can be leaped if the biz doesn't furnish the toys to play with? Unix is an answer. But I would prefer to have examples of other approaches to computing out in the world for people to play with. Every OS has its strengths and every OS has its weaknesses. These were due to the philosophy of the OS and what flavor of computing it was trying to provide. I am appalled at the ignorance of timesharing knowledge. Good grief, even though I'm the only one using this system, I should be able to have it print and chew gum at the same time without giving me the blue finger. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 17 Apr 2002 23:25:56 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019085956 83410 10.0.0.43 (17 Apr 2002 23:25:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 2002 23:25:56 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!feed-ev1!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11160 In article , Bill Todd wrote: >I stand by my statement: it certainly was interesting, but hindsight makes >it pretty clear that what I said DEC should have been most worried about >(the implications of the 386), and what worried me most back then, was in >fact what it needed to be most worried about. You're missing the point. And that is, the implications of the 80386 were already there in 81-82 in the 68000. I wasn't wrong about "in two years you'll be able to get a computer that will be powerful enough to run UNIX for the same price". I was only wrong about it being a 68000, because while the 68000 was the first micro to come out that could potentially compete with the VAX, it wasn't the last. Put it another way: I called the race too early, but DEC hadn't even noticed that the race was on. It doesn't matter which killer micro was the winner, we all knew that the mini was going to be the loser. If it hadn't been the 386 it would have been the 68020, or if not the 68020 the Z80000 or the NS32032. But if it took you until the 80386 came out to be worried about the killer micros, you weren't worrying nearly soon enough. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: Ben Franchuk Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:32:40 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3CBE1428.1716DA70@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11145 Peter da Silva wrote: > It doesn't matter which killer micro was the winner, we all knew > that the mini was going to be the loser. If it hadn't been the > 386 it would have been the 68020, or if not the 68020 the Z80000 > or the NS32032. But if it took you until the 80386 came out to be > worried about the killer micros, you weren't worrying nearly soon > enough. Still busy here building the KILLER 12/24 bit CPU here. Who knows it may even reach PDP-8 speeds. In hindsight DEC also seems to have had no middle ground for software as well as hardware. From what little I have seen the concept of "Personal Software" as well as hardware was a hard thing to grasp.DOS may be the most crappy OS built but in the beginning it was cheap and easy to port. Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:42:09 -0700 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 120 Message-ID: References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva1.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1019090531 8688 (None) 140.142.17.40 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu To: Frank da Cruz In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva1.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11149 On 17 Apr 2002, Frank da Cruz wrote: > We > had source code, we had our SPRs answered, bugs fixed, computers fixed, Yes -- and do you remember how much you paid for the privilege? Care to count how many computers you could buy today for the price of TOPS-20 source code, DEC software support contact, and/or a field service contact? Ever try to submit an SPR without having a DEC software support contract, and in particular, an SPR on something where there wasn't a friendly developer who actually cared about fixing unauthorized bug reports? > we > talked directly to the developers as well as the product managers, we got > our changes into the Monitor and Exec, As did I; but I kept firmly in mind how much my employer was paying for it. Later, I used personal connections. > and we got lots of fun helicopter > rides :-) I don't think you get that any more. I never got a helicopter ride out of DEC. > Security? All I know is we had very few security incidents in the DEC-20 > days -- and not for lack of people trying -- compared to the last couple > years when the virus of the month takes over thousands of individual PCs, You greatly overestimate the combined effort of people trying on the DEC-20, and greatly underestimate the combined effort of people trying on PCs. 20 years ago, nobody thought about buffer overflows, or distributed denial of service attacks, or viruses. The first modern type attack was the Morris worm in 1988. TOPS-20 was immune to that attack, but almost every UNIX system on the Internet fell victim to it. Robert Morris has a felony conviction on his record to this day, never mind that people who do much worse regularly get off scot-free. I run an Internet TOPS-20 system today. I have looked for, and fixed, numerous vulnerabilities in the past few weeks that nobody would have thought of looking for 20 years ago. There are others that I know about that I don't know how to fix. At least, not yet. I won't comment further in an open forum, but if you like I'll discuss it in private email. I stand by my previous statement: modern operating systems (including Linux and other modern UNIX type systems, and Windows XP) are MUCH more secure than anything that was running 20 years ago. I wouldn't take too much stock in the VMS world's claims of security. VMS simply is not a very attractive target; nor are any other oddball operating systems. Linux and Windows XP *are* attractive targets; are frequently attacked; and as a result are becoming quite secure. > Well yeah, a big central computer could go down for extended periods > sometimes, but DEC didn't blow us off when it happened -- they were on the > spot. I remember months of crashes before a clock coax cable was replaced. > Once when our front ends were crashing left and > right (a story in itself, having to do with VT100 smooth scrolling and > Xon/Xoff) they sent the RSX20F guy down... Yes, and how many *years* was it before those crashes were finally fixed? How many *years* did we spend having DEC telling us that the front end crashes were our fault? Why did we get vacant expressions from DEC faces when we suggested that it just might be a smarter idea to drop input rather than crashing when the input buffer was full? Or to limit how much buffer space a single line could monopolize. > I forget his name but we were > warned not to mess with him, he was heavily armed... Not in New York City he wasn't. > We've had dozens, maybe hundreds, of solid, hard, totally reproducible > show stopping bug reports into Microsoft for years. You have to PAY them > to let you tell them about a bug so they can ignore it. I've reported multiple bugs to Microsoft and have gotten fixes. The main exception is Outlook Express, which is more or less a dead product. > Maybe I'm looking at the past through foggy lenses, but I don't think DEC > (and IBM, etc) were as openly crass as today's companies. I think that you are looking through foggy lenses. The main thing (and a vital thing at that!!) from the past that we lost was the open access to developers that we had with DEC. Then again, Digital (note the difference) took that away. > Or to put it another way -- am I wrong about this? -- companies like DEC > cared about their customers and employees at least as much as about their > shareholders, DEC did. Digital did not. > And forget software -- there's nothing quite like > Windows to make us feel like drivelling idiots. "Help, all my icons turned > black!" People expect us to be able to help them because we're computer > experts? Ha. I would certainly like to see Windows opened up, at least to the point of allowing customers the ability to *buy* Windows sources. I don't agree with the idea of trying to force Microsoft to make Windows be open source though, especially when the proponents are themselves vendors of closed-source products. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 18 Apr 2002 02:50:56 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3CBE1428.1716DA70@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019098256 94182 10.0.0.43 (18 Apr 2002 02:50:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2002 02:50:56 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!feed-ev1!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11162 In article <3CBE1428.1716DA70@jetnet.ab.ca>, Ben Franchuk wrote: >Peter da Silva wrote: >> It doesn't matter which killer micro was the winner, we all knew >> that the mini was going to be the loser. If it hadn't been the >> 386 it would have been the 68020, or if not the 68020 the Z80000 >> or the NS32032. But if it took you until the 80386 came out to be >> worried about the killer micros, you weren't worrying nearly soon >> enough. >Still busy here building the KILLER 12/24 bit CPU here. >Who knows it may even reach PDP-8 speeds. In hindsight DEC also >seems to have had no middle ground for software as well as hardware. >From what little I have seen the concept of "Personal Software" as >well as hardware was a hard thing to grasp.DOS may be the most crappy >OS built but in the beginning it was cheap and easy to port. DOS wasn't quite as crappy as CP/M-80, surprisingly, but CP/M-86 was pretty good, and CP/M was *much* easier to port. It's too bad Digital Research hadn't been quicker to respond when Bill Gates told IBM to see if DR could do the OS for the PC. Boy he must have been happy to see them show up again after he realised the opportunity he'd let slip away. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 41 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <5Fqv8.66255$%l3.6482906@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 22:00:17 CDT X-Trace: sv3-loyLdNEEM7txmXLjdPCZ4PB4SaLM7iZQ/O89iNaG5+GBOin496I7spwmM5jR93wdVTPxolF2HbcUOyc!vM4Ti3RHz/mCMh9kHvdb67cy7spTp389veJsXOGGVGqJZYI127LaWDjpkBGNnBquO2g3JPvohw0y!yLLgGW/EOGY9a0Ia20Nu/w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 03:00:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer2.newshosting.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11173 "Peter da Silva" wrote in message news:a9l0a4$2hei$1@citadel.in.taronga.com... > In article , > Bill Todd wrote: > >I stand by my statement: it certainly was interesting, but hindsight makes > >it pretty clear that what I said DEC should have been most worried about > >(the implications of the 386), and what worried me most back then, was in > >fact what it needed to be most worried about. > > You're missing the point. I suggest that you are. See below. > > And that is, the implications of the 80386 were already there in > 81-82 in the 68000. I wasn't wrong about "in two years you'll be > able to get a computer that will be powerful enough to run UNIX > for the same price". I was only wrong about it being a 68000, > because while the 68000 was the first micro to come out that could > potentially compete with the VAX, it wasn't the last. > > Put it another way: I called the race too early, but DEC hadn't > even noticed that the race was on. > > It doesn't matter which killer micro was the winner, we all knew > that the mini was going to be the loser. DEC was preparing to field killer micros of its own: one can theorize about how it would have fared if the PC had never been created, but that's not what happened. My point was that it was the *combination* of a killer micro in an 'industry-standard' PC package that turned out to be the real killer. The 386 certainly didn't win on its hardware merits over the 680x0. - bill ###### From: "David G. Conroy" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Organization: Used only for posts to newsgroups X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.120.163.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr14.news.prodigy.com 1019099414 ST000 66.120.163.28 (Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:10:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:10:14 EDT X-UserInfo1: Q[R_PJSCTS@KRZPX@ZKBOFTBTR\B@GXLN@GZ_GYO^JWTEPIB_NVUAH_[BL[\IRKIANGGJBFNJF_DOLSCENSY^U@FRFUEXR@KFXYDBPWBCDQJA@X_DCBHXR[C@\EOKCJLED_SZ@RMWYXYWE_P@\\GOIW^@SYFFSWHFIXMADO@^[ADPRPETLBJ]RDGENSKQQZN Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 03:10:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newscon01.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr14.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11143 I remember the Cromemco ad, but I think DG ran it, not DEC. ---------- In article , peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: > In article <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, > Bill Todd wrote: >>Something which may have been at least debatable when the PC first came out, >>but had become absolutely clear by the time the 32-bit 80386 was released in >>1985. > > The 68000 should have been a strong enough hint, really. By 1982 there were > killer micros good enough that DEC was running ads against them, and Cromemco > were taking DEC ads that showed them "busting" Cromemco boards and using them > in their own marketing... and Cromemco was doing it with multi-CPU Z-80s! > > Then there were Plexus, Fortune Systems, ... and Sun ... > > -- > Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? > > "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" > -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 18 Apr 2002 04:03:21 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <5Fqv8.66255$%l3.6482906@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019102601 98427 10.0.0.43 (18 Apr 2002 04:03:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2002 04:03:21 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11153 In article <5Fqv8.66255$%l3.6482906@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, Bill Todd wrote: >My point was that it was the *combination* of a killer micro in an >'industry-standard' PC package that turned out to be the real killer. The "industry standard package" stuff was a retcon. After all, the "industry standard" PC package in 1981 was S-100. What was killer was *abundant* *cheap* 32-bit systems with ample software. It doesn't matter what package they were in. Once one contender got far enough ahead they would *be* the "industry standard" no matter what they were. >The 386 certainly didn't win on its hardware merits over the 680x0. That wasn't the race. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <5Fqv8.66255$%l3.6482906@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 69 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <32tv8.24472$PV.2951124@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 00:43:27 CDT X-Trace: sv3-zz2EP1DKD+WhasWUi8iLl0l/iUmw8ykj5SGSdb2Sfpcm7zhQT6n1PcOhKcn9mPelFxdeiw0Va5Z6DE0!TKyek4TBDRG9VCdT4yAhhH0hoWv0Q16uBHHyBWhAUKIJ0SEHJ0U4/M7tN49rLhXZsPS0nXyP0vxk!WHlNvSAGK9SuePrX/u8r X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 05:43:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11171 "Peter da Silva" wrote in message news:a9lgi9$303r$1@citadel.in.taronga.com... > In article <5Fqv8.66255$%l3.6482906@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, > Bill Todd wrote: > >My point was that it was the *combination* of a killer micro in an > >'industry-standard' PC package that turned out to be the real killer. > > The "industry standard package" stuff was a retcon. Wrong. After all, the > "industry standard" PC package in 1981 was S-100. I can assure you that by 1983 - 4 the 'industry-standard' PC package was IBM-compatible: we were running up against that hard trying to sell Pros. > > What was killer was *abundant* *cheap* 32-bit systems with ample software. In 1981? Could you name them? While there may have been cheap 32-bit systems that early (though even that seems just a tad earlier than they were generally available), claiming that their software competed in any way with DEC's seems a real stretch. If you didn't mean for the 1981 date to apply to your later comment, then you run into the problem that by 2-3 years later those cheap systems were getting eclipsed by the then-industry-standard (though still 16-bit) PC, and would never generate the volumes necessary to get the full software base they needed. That was DEC's major advantage going in: it already *had* that software base, and non of its inexpensive competition did. The only people who really eventually developed something even somewhat competitive were the Unix workstation crowd, and while those were significantly cheaper than DEC's products they were in no way price-competitive with the PCs that eventually won the day even in that sphere (though not before companies like Sun and Apollo had gotten well launched). DEC *also* screwed up its competition with Sun, of course. But that was a competition it *could* have won if it hadn't been blind and greedy, whereas competition in the PC space (using its own 'proprietary' platforms) was something it couldn't have won any time after about 1982 (assuming that somehow it could have created its own standard even back then). That would have been OK had the PC remained 16-bit (DEC could just have jumped on the PC-compatible bandwagon just like everyone else, which is of course what it eventually had to do anyway). But when the standard, high-volume, low-price platform went 32-bit, its eventual incursion on DEC's primary source of profit became a certainty unless DEC took major steps to occupy the territory (providing standard servers for PC clients) that they would otherwise expand into. Had it done so, NT wouldn't exist today - and DEC would, even after having screwed up its competition with Sun and the non-PC killer micros. > > It doesn't matter what package they were in. Once one contender got far > enough ahead they would *be* the "industry standard" no matter what they > were. > > >The 386 certainly didn't win on its hardware merits over the 680x0. > > That wasn't the race. Exactly. Which is why the 386 was the real worry. - bill ###### Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org> <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Lines: 47 Message-ID: <2Dtv8.5$nB5.413@nreader2.kpnqwest.net> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 06:22:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.26.6 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@KPNQwest.no X-Trace: nreader2.kpnqwest.net 1019110974 193.71.26.6 (Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:22:54 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:22:54 MET DST Organization: KPNQwest customer news service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!ossa.telenet-ops.be!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!nreader2.kpnqwest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11155 In article , wrote: >In article <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com>, > Patrick Sweeney wrote: > > >>Digital failed to realize that improvement in >>personal computers would cause them >>to compete with "minicomputers" that would seal its doom. > > >This wasn't it at all. Those of us on the -10 had no problem >using local computers to access mainframes and we were waiting >for the day when we could have a PDP-10 on our desktop at home. >We just never thought that the technology would get small as >fast as it did. In late 1983, as the news about the Jupiter demise was getting abundantly clear; we had some bets about when our personal systems would have the equivalent power of a PDP10 (specifically, #2419). This particular PDP20 ran TOPS20, i think it had version 5 at that time, , three RP06'es, two RP07's, and 2 megawords of core. There was a pretty wide consensus that it would take around 10 years for the hardware part. There was disaggreement about the software; some claimedit would take another 5 to get the software roughly right, and that after another 5 it would be available as a wearable. In 1993 (10 years) we were just about to move up from 80486'es (32 bit, approx. 40x a PDP10 in cpu speed), typical installations had 8 to 16 megabytes of memory, 2G disks were appearing, 1G was pretty normal. I.e. the prediction went through. Linux and BSD were still extremely rare, and PC software was a glaring problem. This prediction also was true, IMNSHO. In 1998 (15 years) the Linux and BSD revolutions were both well under way, and their power began to reach the levels of Tops20. (Bash, proper paging, networks, X, etc.) I'd say this one went in as well. In preparation for 2003 I plan to put together a Palm running Tops20 under an emulator, with a reconstruction of the environment of #2419, as a little reminder of some predictions that was pretty well on the mark. -- mrr ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Lines: 40 Message-ID: <2Dtv8.6$nB5.413@nreader2.kpnqwest.net> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 06:22:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.26.6 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@KPNQwest.no X-Trace: nreader2.kpnqwest.net 1019110974 193.71.26.6 (Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:22:54 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:22:54 MET DST Organization: KPNQwest customer news service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!skynet.be!skynet.be!ossa.telenet-ops.be!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!nreader2.kpnqwest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11156 In article , Frank da Cruz wrote: >I don't know... I think the salient principal is Gresham's Law: "the bad >drives out the good". Sure DEC had some lousy management and stupid ideas, >but eventually cheap mass-market component-based consumer computing was >bound to drive any soup-to-nuts engineering company like DEC out of business >anyway. And even if it didn't, what's the fun in selling beige boxes that >are just like everybody else's? (I suppose IBM must be the "exception that >proves the rule" -- maybe with better management DEC could evolved in a >similar direction, but how much room can there be for multiple non-beige-box >companies in the computer market these days?) I would still take issue with this. The DEC company was rather small, very service and hardware-oriented, and tended to listen to its customers. It could have survived as a niche company supplying a couple of lucrative niches with quality products at premium prices. As soon as the scale went up, and the style went DIGITAL they closed the door to being a small, niche-based company, and it became an all or nothing bet. They gloriously failed to follow up on this bet, and do some major corporate reengineering of the value chains; like the ones uSoft and IBM is famous for. >Our problem today is that there is no longer a distinction between serious >computing and home entertainment. One model fits all, even when it is >outrageously inappropriate. The vast majority of corporate, government, and >academic consumers would rather "standardize" on junky throwaway PCs for all >the well-known reasons than pay a premium for good stuff that really works >and for which the vendor can be held responsible. The fact that this has a >momental cost in human productivity is of little concern because nowadays >everything is done through accounting trickery. I hope the current bear market will bring some realism back into the corporate world, and that working systems will be fashionable again. At least profitable companies are back in vogue, so there may still be hope. -- morten ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <5Fqv8.66255$%l3.6482906@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <32tv8.24472$PV.2951124@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Lines: 29 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 02:02:37 CDT X-Trace: sv3-sC7QokLTDZzUV2MysJMM/clE2ItXEoKycEb0OoorgQmULiHPdsJSFAqL+zzkbimTgfwCTMjUTJ45emT!KriS8jHyChR1EF6GdjmhXqAiiA9qpIw0+dNONlA9jbAA9abfVFbjA8Wk3HNA0Af0ImV6MMRXNMM8!Oou9k8EfeLPvtM/fcGX9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:02:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11172 "Bill Todd" wrote in message news:32tv8.24472$PV.2951124@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "Peter da Silva" wrote in message > news:a9lgi9$303r$1@citadel.in.taronga.com... ... > > What was killer was *abundant* *cheap* 32-bit systems with ample software. > > In 1981? Could you name them? While there may have been cheap 32-bit > systems that early (though even that seems just a tad earlier than they were > generally available), claiming that their software competed in any way with > DEC's seems a real stretch. Note that I'm not claiming that *no* micro 32-bit systems were available in 1981, just questioning whether cheap but significant ones were. I fondly recall an expedition in the middle of one night in 1980, IIRC, to see Apollo's OS page over its network the first day they got that feature up and running. - bill ###### From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:04:23 +0100 Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 51 Message-ID: <3CBE7E07.4000201@sun.com> References: <3CBE1428.1716DA70@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: sunburst.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: new-usenet.uk.sun.com 1019117475 19634 129.156.147.140 (18 Apr 2002 08:11:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@new-usenet.uk.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2002 08:11:15 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011206 Netscape6/6.2.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer2.newshosting.com!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11168 Peter da Silva wrote: > In article <3CBE1428.1716DA70@jetnet.ab.ca>, > Ben Franchuk wrote: > >>Peter da Silva wrote: >> >>>It doesn't matter which killer micro was the winner, we all knew >>>that the mini was going to be the loser. If it hadn't been the >>>386 it would have been the 68020, or if not the 68020 the Z80000 >>>or the NS32032. But if it took you until the 80386 came out to be >>>worried about the killer micros, you weren't worrying nearly soon >>>enough. >>> > >>Still busy here building the KILLER 12/24 bit CPU here. >>Who knows it may even reach PDP-8 speeds. In hindsight DEC also >>seems to have had no middle ground for software as well as hardware. >> >>From what little I have seen the concept of "Personal Software" as > >>well as hardware was a hard thing to grasp.DOS may be the most crappy >>OS built but in the beginning it was cheap and easy to port. >> > > DOS wasn't quite as crappy as CP/M-80, surprisingly, but CP/M-86 was > pretty good, and CP/M was *much* easier to port. It's too bad Digital > Research hadn't been quicker to respond when Bill Gates told IBM to see > if DR could do the OS for the PC. Boy he must have been happy to see > them show up again after he realised the opportunity he'd let slip away. > Sadly this isn't quite what happened. IBM approached Digital Research who send them to Bill. Bill didn't have anything to sell IBM but a small Intel systems manufacturer that BG knew of called Seattle Microsystems had something called QDOS, (Quick and Dirty Operating System). Bill quick as a flash said Microsoft are your men to the IBM team, did a deal with SMS, changed the headers on QDOS to MSDOS and the rest is history. That and IBM forgetting to include their rights to the IP for the OS being provided to them in the contract. Regards Andrew Harrison ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 18 Apr 2002 12:03:33 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <5Fqv8.66255$%l3.6482906@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <32tv8.24472$PV.2951124@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019131413 24920 10.0.0.43 (18 Apr 2002 12:03:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2002 12:03:33 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11163 In article <32tv8.24472$PV.2951124@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, Bill Todd wrote: >I can assure you that by 1983 - 4 the 'industry-standard' PC package was >IBM-compatible: we were running up against that hard trying to sell Pros. I'm not talking about 1983, though. I'm not even talking about this or that technical detail. I'm talking about a trend that SHOULD have been obvious to DEC a couple of years before that. What I mean by "the S-100 bus was the industry standard" is that it's not a matter of "the industry standard that makes X a winner" but "the success of X makes it an industry standard". >> What was killer was *abundant* *cheap* 32-bit systems with ample software. >In 1981? Could you name them? They didn't exist in 1981. But what *did* exist in 1981 was enough to make it obvious that they *would* exist within a few years. We'd already been through the same process many times by then, and DEC had been part of one of the previous waves. >While there may have been cheap 32-bit >systems that early (though even that seems just a tad earlier than they were >generally available), claiming that their software competed in any way with >DEC's seems a real stretch. I didn't claim that their software competed with DEC's then. I claimed that what existed then was enough to be ringing warning bells at DEC, and that if they'd responded when the 80386 showed up it still may have been too late. >> That wasn't the race. >Exactly. Which is why the 386 was the real worry. By the late '80s, yes. But it wasn't released until October 1985. It didn't really have much impact on mass-market systems for a year or two after that: people were still mostly buying 286-based systems until the 386SX came out and you could build a 386 for 286 prices. But that's *years* after they should have started worrying. Again, by NCC '82 it was obvious what was going to happen, even if it was too early to tell what product it was going to be. The 80386 was the bullet that finally hit. But the 68000 was the first warning shot. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 18 Apr 2002 12:06:43 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> <2Dtv8.6$nB5.413@nreader2.kpnqwest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019131603 24968 10.0.0.43 (18 Apr 2002 12:06:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2002 12:06:43 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed.sjc.globix.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!64.42.15.2!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11161 In article <2Dtv8.6$nB5.413@nreader2.kpnqwest.net>, Morten Reistad wrote: >I hope the current bear market will bring some realism back into >the corporate world, and that working systems will be fashionable again. So far we seem to be getting companies killing their profitable products in favor of losing money by selling cheap and not making it up in volume. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 18 Apr 2002 12:15:43 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 91 Message-ID: References: <3CBE1428.1716DA70@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CBE7E07.4000201@sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019132143 25562 10.0.0.43 (18 Apr 2002 12:15:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2002 12:15:43 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11164 In article <3CBE7E07.4000201@sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: >Peter da Silva wrote: >> DOS wasn't quite as crappy as CP/M-80, surprisingly, but CP/M-86 was >> pretty good, and CP/M was *much* easier to port. It's too bad Digital >> Research hadn't been quicker to respond when Bill Gates told IBM to see >> if DR could do the OS for the PC. Boy he must have been happy to see >> them show up again after he realised the opportunity he'd let slip away. >Sadly this isn't quite what happened. IBM approached Digital Research >who send them to Bill. It's amazing the number of different stories that have grown up about this incident. The most entertaining one is that Gary Kildall was out flying his private plane when IBM came to call... but apparently that line was something his wife used as an excuse to stall the people from IBM... it didn't happen. Here's what did: http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa033099.htm: | The History of the MS-DOS Operating Systems Microsoft - Tim Paterson | - Gary Kildall | | By Mary Bellis | | "I don't think it's that significant." - Tandy president John Roach | on IBM's entry into the microcomputer field | | On August 12, 1981, IBM introduced its new revolution in a box, | the "Personal Computer" complete with a brand new operating system | from Microsoft and a 16-bit computer operating system called MS-DOS | 1.0. | | Operating System: /n./ [techspeak] (Often abbreviated `OS') | The foundation software of a machine, of course; that which | schedules tasks, allocates storage, and presents a default | interface to the user between applications. The facilities | an operating system provides and its general design philosophy | exert an extremely strong influence on programming style | and on the technical cultures that grow up around its host | machines. - The Jargon Dictionary* | | | In 1980, IBM first approached Bill Gates and Microsoft, to discuss | the state of home computers and Microsoft products. Gates gave IBM | a few ideas on what would make a great home computer, among them | to have Basic written into the ROM chip. Microsoft had already | produced several versions of Basic for different computer system | beginning with the Altair, so Gates was more than happy to write | a version for IBM. | | As for an operating system (OS) for the new computers, since | Microsoft had never written an operating system before, Gates had | suggested that IBM investigate an OS called CP/M (Control Program | for Microcomputers), written by Gary Kildall of Digital Research. | Kindall had his Ph.D. in computers and had written the most successful | operating system of the time, selling over 600,000 copies of CP/M, | his OS set the standard at that time. | | IBM tried to contact Kildall for a meeting, executives met with | Mrs. Kildall who refused to sign a non-disclosure agreement. IBM | soon returned to Bill Gates and gave Microsoft the contract to | write the new operating system, one that would eventually wipe | Kildall's CP/M out of common use. | | The "Microsoft Disk Operating System" or MS-DOS was based on QDOS, | the "Quick and Dirty Operating System" written by Tim Paterson of | Seattle Computer Products, for their prototype Intel 8086 based | computer. | | QDOS was based on Gary Kildall's CP/M, Paterson had bought a CP/M | manual and used it as the basis to write his operating system in | six weeks, QDOS was different enough from CP/M to be considered | legal. | | Microsoft bought the rights to QDOS for $50,000, keeping the IBM | deal a secret from Seattle Computer Products. | | Gates then talked IBM into letting Microsoft retain the rights, to | market MS DOS separate from the IBM PC project, Gates proceeded to | make a fortune from the licensing of MS-DOS. | | In 1981, Tim Paterson quit Seattle Computer Products and found | employment at Microsoft. | | "Life begins with a disk drive." - Tim Paterson | -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 18 Apr 2002 10:11:19 -0400 Organization: Columbia University Lines: 123 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: watsol.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 1019139082 10868 128.59.39.139 (18 Apr 2002 14:11:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2002 14:11:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xmission!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!dfw-feed.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!news.columbia.edu!news-not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11154 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: : On 17 Apr 2002, Frank da Cruz wrote: : > We had source code, we had our SPRs answered, bugs fixed, computers fixed, : : Yes -- and do you remember how much you paid for the privilege? : Care to count how many computers you could buy today for the price of : TOPS-20 source code, DEC software support contact, and/or a field service : contact? : Sure, lots. But how do you compare that with today? In those days you could have one budget for computing and networking. The "genius" of our new times is that budgeting, decision making, and allocation of resources is so distributed that nobody has a handle on how much money is being spent and/or wasted on computing, not to mention the time that each and every PC user has to devote to being their own sysadmin. Today when a computer (PC) breaks, you just throw it away and buy a new one. Big deal right? Who cares about $800. The problem is you're also throwing away all the time and effort that went into configuring it and acquiring or creating the information it holds, and the information itself because face it, nobody backs these things up. At this point a great deal of time must be reinvested in re-creating the configuration and information, or else it is lost. Multiply this scenario across the millions of PCs that break each year. This is just one form of information decay that started in the 1990-95 time frame (when first PCs and then the Web became ubiquitous). Information simply does not persist any more (Peter's excavation of 20-year-old Kermit messages notwithstanding :-) I expect this will have some pretty serious consequences down the road for Civiliation As We Know It. Looking just at the cost angle, I would not be surprised if 1000 PCs break each year at Columbia; that's $800,000 in replacement costs, which is about what we spent on our DEC-20s. Figure in the time and effort to reconfigure and set up each PC, and it's no longer obvious that total cost of ownership is any lower today than it was 20 years ago. : 20 years ago, nobody thought about buffer overflows, or distributed denial : of service attacks, or viruses. The first modern type attack was the : Morris worm in 1988. TOPS-20 was immune to that attack.. : And would be immune to many kinds of attacks common today. It had a real file system with ownership and permissions -- an idea that didn't find its way back onto the PC desktop until this year, when Windows XP started coming preinstalled on new PCs (and you STILL have to go out of your way to make it secure because it encourages you to Administrator). You can't get a virus by reading your email with MM, or by merely mentioning the name of a file, you can't replace the system files, etc. Buffer overflows maybe, but all software has bugs. A great deal of the success of Windows-based viruses is due not to bugs but to the fundamental design of Windows: the wide-open file system, the wide-open access to every resource and device. TOPS-10 and -20, not to mention Unix and VMS, going back more than 30 years, had this right but suddenly all these concepts became legacy, depracated baggage of the past in today's fast-paced marketplace, in which customers and end users suffer and the CEOs bail out with 10-figure golden parachutes. In any case, when a central system has a bug or vulnerability, you fix it in one place and everybody benefits from the fix right away. A PC bug has to be fixed in 10,000 places, and usually isn't. : I run an Internet TOPS-20 system today. I have looked for, and fixed, : numerous vulnerabilities in the past few weeks that nobody would have : thought of looking for 20 years ago. There are others that I know about : that I don't know how to fix. At least, not yet. I won't comment further : in an open forum, but if you like I'll discuss it in private email. : I believe you! We had some pretty resourceful hackers back in the old days, but vulnerabilities were fixed pretty fast too. : I stand by my previous statement: modern operating systems (including : Linux and other modern UNIX type systems, and Windows XP) are MUCH more : secure than anything that was running 20 years ago. : TOPS-xx would be just as secure if it had been maintained the past 20 years. : > Once when our front ends were crashing left and : > right (a story in itself, having to do with VT100 smooth scrolling and : > Xon/Xoff) they sent the RSX20F guy down... : : Yes, and how many *years* was it before those crashes were finally fixed? : For us, they were fixed immediately... : How many *years* did we spend having DEC telling us that the front end : crashes were our fault? : Well, they did that to us too at first because we first noticed the problem when a guy fell asleep at his desk and his head landed on a Concept-100 terminal keyboard -- the constant autorepeat made the FE crash, reboot, crash, reboot.. (this gave "head crash" a whole new meaning). But when we showed them that a VT100 could do it on its own, no head required, they brought in their big guns and... : Why did we get vacant expressions from DEC faces when we suggested that it : just might be a smarter idea to drop input rather than crashing when the : input buffer was full? : That's what the guy did. He modified our copy of RSX20F on the spot to do this; I suppose it must have taken a while for the change to propogate. Anyway, I don't claim that TOPS-20 as we knew it would be the ideal platform today, not even for us text-lovers. I have no idea how to fill that bill, and it wouldn't matter if I did because today everything is market driven, with little attention to what's best, what's right, quality, standards, or other depracated legacy concepts of the past -- all that matters is what sells in the mass consumer market. But we should also not swallow the fantasy that computing is cheaper now than it was before -- it might easily be FAR more expensive. This is actually kind of an interesting question, worthy of serious investigation -- the computer-related expenditures of a typical large organization over the past 30 years, together with the patterns of staff assignments. But even with that information, the true costs of the PC revolution remain hidden -- how do you measure how much time each person spends futzing with their PC? -- A time sink that simply did not exist for computer users before PCs came along. - Frank ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:27:40 -0700 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva1.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp6.u.washington.edu 1019143662 6808 (None) 140.142.17.37 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva1.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11151 On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> Those of us on the -10 had no problem > >> using local computers to access mainframes and we were waiting > >> for the day when we could have a PDP-10 on our desktop at home. > >So, Barb, now that it is quite feasible, when are you going to do it? :-) > I don't have to. There are a number of 'guys' doing the > work. And there are other guys doing my 1984 proposal which doesn't > force all users to learn a new operating system just because > the architecture has changed. If I was really going to run > a biz that built a desktop PDP-10, I'd get Mike to do it. No, I meant: Now that it is quite feasible to have a PDP-10 on your desktop at home (I built mine for $750), when are you going to do it? We are waiting to see BAH's ultimate TOPS-10 system. My desktop PDP-10 uses: Athlon 1700+ CPU, Gibraltar microcode operating system (secure CD-ROM based version of Debian Linux), klh10 microcode. I built the hardware myself out of off-the shelf PC hardware for $750. The result runs TOPS-20 15 times faster than a KL. A complete TOPS-20 release 7 monitor build from sources (including all the DECnet crud) takes 12 minutes. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <32tv8.24472$PV.2951124@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> From: robert@bonomi.invalid Sender: robert@bonomi.invalid Originator: robert@bonomi.invalid Organization: Not Much X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998) Originator: bonomi@c-ns. (Robert Bonomi) Lines: 77 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 15:45:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.241.52.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: ord-read.news.verio.net 1019144715 207.241.52.60 (Thu, 18 Apr 2002 15:45:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 15:45:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!ord-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11167 In article , Peter da Silva wrote: >In article <32tv8.24472$PV.2951124@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, >Bill Todd wrote: >>I can assure you that by 1983 - 4 the 'industry-standard' PC package was >>IBM-compatible: we were running up against that hard trying to sell Pros. > >I'm not talking about 1983, though. I'm not even talking about this or that >technical detail. I'm talking about a trend that SHOULD have been obvious >to DEC a couple of years before that. What I mean by "the S-100 bus was >the industry standard" is that it's not a matter of "the industry standard >that makes X a winner" but "the success of X makes it an industry standard". > >>> What was killer was *abundant* *cheap* 32-bit systems with ample software. > >>In 1981? Could you name them? > >They didn't exist in 1981. But what *did* exist in 1981 was enough to make it >obvious that they *would* exist within a few years. We'd already been through >the same process many times by then, and DEC had been part of one of the >previous waves. The first of the true 32-bit super-micros hit the market in Feb of '83. from "Charles River Data Systems", Boston. The 'little' one was about $20k, and a near performance-match to a Vax 780. The big one, fully tricked out, could run head-to-head with a 780 *with* a FPS array-processor attachment. Peak floating-point performance at 320 MFLOPS. All For less than $300k, and in the space of a 2-drawer file cabinet, depending on how much disk you needed. Insult to injury, it comfortably supported 50+ simultaneous, active, users. O/S was a Unix 7th Ed. look-/work-alike. With _true_ real-time capabilities. (It looked like UNIX, and was 100% call-compatible -- but the lower levels of the O/S were entirely developed in-house at CRDS. Fully pre-emptable, 'hard' real-time capable.) The entire AT&T Unix utilities set was available, along with a commercial database package, and full TCP/IP networking -- well, *IF* you had the (hideously expensive) Ethernet card. Available languages included an optimizing C compiler, a quality Fortran 77 compiler (Lahey, I think, its been a -long- time :) and an impressively good COBOL for a small machine. Over the years, they sold more than 10,000 systems. >>While there may have been cheap 32-bit >>systems that early (though even that seems just a tad earlier than they were >>generally available), claiming that their software competed in any way with >>DEC's seems a real stretch. > >I didn't claim that their software competed with DEC's then. I claimed that >what existed then was enough to be ringing warning bells at DEC, and that if >they'd responded when the 80386 showed up it still may have been too late. > >>> That wasn't the race. > >>Exactly. Which is why the 386 was the real worry. > >By the late '80s, yes. But it wasn't released until October 1985. It didn't >really have much impact on mass-market systems for a year or two after that: >people were still mostly buying 286-based systems until the 386SX came out and >you could build a 386 for 286 prices. > >But that's *years* after they should have started worrying. > >Again, by NCC '82 it was obvious what was going to happen, even if it was >too early to tell what product it was going to be. > >The 80386 was the bullet that finally hit. > >But the 68000 was the first warning shot. and the WE 16032 (and follow-up 32032), and the Zilog Z8000, and at least a couple of others. ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:15:52 -0700 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 122 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva1.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1019146554 24382 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu To: Frank da Cruz In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!sfo2-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva1.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11150 On 18 Apr 2002, Frank da Cruz wrote: > Looking just at the cost angle, I would not be surprised if 1000 PCs break > each year at Columbia; that's $800,000 in replacement costs, which is about > what we spent on our DEC-20s. Figure in the time and effort to reconfigure > and set up each PC, and it's no longer obvious that total cost of ownership > is any lower today than it was 20 years ago. This was, by the way, fairly easy to predict early on in the "personal computer revolution". The idea that a central IS infrastructure would go away once everybody had PCs was nice (and emotionally satisfying for the IS dept bashers), but based on the fantasy that computer users *want* to be sysadmins. As it turns out, most computer users do not want to be sysadmins, and will pay good money so they don't have to be. > : 20 years ago, nobody thought about buffer overflows, or distributed denial > : of service attacks, or viruses. The first modern type attack was the > : Morris worm in 1988. TOPS-20 was immune to that attack.. > And would be immune to many kinds of attacks common today. Unfortunately, TOPS-20 is also quite vulnerable to other attacks common today. > It had a real > file system with ownership and permissions -- an idea that didn't find its > way back onto the PC desktop until this year, when Windows XP started coming > preinstalled on new PCs ?? NT and Win2K always had ownership and permissions, and that's what I've run on *my* desktop for years. As far as I was concerned, DOS-based Windows was for loading games and that's it. > (and you STILL have to go out of your way to make it > secure because it encourages you to Administrator). Umm. How many of us had ENABLE in COMAND.CMD? > You can't get a virus > by reading your email with MM Unfortunately, that is not true. > A great deal of the > success of Windows-based viruses is due not to bugs but to the fundamental > design of Windows: the wide-open file system, the wide-open access to every > resource and device. That fundamental design did not begin with Windows. It was basic to the entire PC revolution. A personal computer, so the contemporary mythos went, should not be encumbered by access controls; the user should have a wide-open file system and wide-open access to every resource and device. No more fascist computer center telling you what you could or couldn't do. The 8-bit PCs were this way; DOS was this way; Mac was this way; and Windows simply followed the trend. > TOPS-10 and -20, not to mention Unix and VMS, going > back more than 30 years, had this right I don't know about Unix. Unix security was pretty much non-existant until sometime in the 1980s. Or rather, it was security through obscurity. > suddenly all these concepts > became legacy, depracated baggage of the past in today's fast-paced > marketplace, in which customers and end users suffer and the CEOs bail out > with 10-figure golden parachutes. I think that you're confusing effect with cause. Personal computers are what the advocates of the personal computer revolution said they should be. It turns out that their idea was flawed in some respects... :-) > : Why did we get vacant expressions from DEC faces when we suggested that it > : just might be a smarter idea to drop input rather than crashing when the > : input buffer was full? > That's what the guy did. He modified our copy of RSX20F on the spot to do > this; I suppose it must have taken a while for the change to propogate. You don't know the type of absue that I took during the 4.0 field test because of all the front end crashes. I was so happy when I learned how to roll the front end back to the 3A version but still run 4.0. Then I took crap from DEC for violating the field test by not running the 4.0 front end. > Anyway, I don't claim that TOPS-20 as we knew it would be the ideal platform > today, not even for us text-lovers. Uh, give it a try. It's quite usable, and will be more so once Pine is ported. > today everything is market driven, > with little attention to what's best, what's right, quality, standards, or > other depracated legacy concepts of the past I'm just not convinced that the past was that good in those respects. Some things were different and better in the past; just not what you identified. > But we should also not swallow the > fantasy that computing is cheaper now than it was before -- it might easily > be FAR more expensive. That's certainly true, and I bet that the personal computer advocates of 20 years ago would have been horrified if they knew that was how it would turn out. But it was predictable. People think about tangible costs (such as hardware), and ignore the intangible (such as management). I live in a city which was formed (over the objections of nearly half its residents, including me) with the promise that the city could be run cheaply and "city hall could be in somebody's garage." We're now paying taxes to repay the $10 million bonds for building city hall, not to mention salaries for a huge bureaucracy. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 18 Apr 2002 17:02:27 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <32tv8.24472$PV.2951124@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019149347 41309 10.0.0.43 (18 Apr 2002 17:02:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2002 17:02:27 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11157 In article , wrote: >The first of the true 32-bit super-micros hit the market in Feb of '83. >from "Charles River Data Systems", Boston. Onyx, Zilog, and Plexus were all shipping Z8000-based systems by the end of 1981. I don't know why the Z8000 seemed to recede into the background when the 68000 showed up, but by NCC 1982 everyone was talking up the 68000 and ignoring the Z8000. Most of the vendors with 32-bit systems were using the 68000 and Plexus had switched. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 18 Apr 2002 13:03:55 -0400 Organization: Columbia University Lines: 92 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: watsol.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 1019149436 17337 128.59.39.139 (18 Apr 2002 17:03:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2002 17:03:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xmission!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!dfw-feed.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!news.columbia.edu!news-not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11152 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: > This was, by the way, fairly easy to predict early on in the "personal > computer revolution". The idea that a central IS infrastructure would go > away once everybody had PCs was nice (and emotionally satisfying for the > IS dept bashers), but based on the fantasy that computer users *want* to > be sysadmins. As it turns out, most computer users do not want to be > sysadmins, and will pay good money so they don't have to be. > For a good laugh, read this: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/security/safecomputing.html This is a truly horrific description of what you are letting yourself in for when you want to have an Internet-connected Windows PC. > > It had a real file system with ownership and permissions -- an idea that > > didn't find its way back onto the PC desktop until this year, when > > Windows XP started coming preinstalled on new PCs > > NT and Win2K always had ownership and permissions, and that's what I've > run on *my* desktop for years. As far as I was concerned, DOS-based > Windows was for loading games and that's it. > Right but hardly anybody used Windows NT until just recently, when PCs no longer came preloaded with Win9x or ME. Even now, it's going to take many years for Win9x and ME to fade away, and as long as they are connected to the Internet (e.g. in university offices and dorm rooms) they are disasters waiting to happen. > > You can't get a virus by reading your email with MM ... > > Unfortunately, that is not true. > OK, I'll bite, how? All I can think of is what used to be called the "Berkeley bug", in which embedded escape sequences in your email made the terminal transmit stuff back to the host (only works with certain kinds of terminals you don't see much any more for exactly that reason). > > A great deal of the success of Windows-based viruses is due not to bugs > > but to the fundamental design of Windows: the wide-open file system, the > > wide-open access to every resource and device. > > That fundamental design did not begin with Windows. It was basic to the > entire PC revolution. > Right, but early PCs were for hackers and tinkerers, not for the mass market. It was not until Windows 95 came out that the world changed. A Windows 9x PC is a hideously complex and unsafe device operated by ordinary untrained citizens. Whoever decided that computers were ready for the mass market in 1995 was not being particularly responsible. (Of course, it's not their job to be responsible, and I think that's the biggest change from 20 years ago.) > I don't know about Unix. Unix security was pretty much non-existant > until sometime in the 1980s. Or rather, it was security through > obscurity. > I'm pretty sure Unix had file-system security going back at least to V7 (if I wasn't so lazy I'd get up and walk over to the bookcase and check on V6 in the 1978 BSTJ Unix issue...) > > suddenly all these concepts > > became legacy, depracated baggage of the past in today's fast-paced > > marketplace, in which customers and end users suffer and the CEOs bail > > out with 10-figure golden parachutes. > > Personal computers are what the advocates of the personal computer > revolution said they should be. It turns out that their idea was flawed > in some respects... :-) > Depends on which advocates. We all remember the advocates of the high-power desktop bitmapped workstations -- Altos, Perqs, Stars, Apollos, early Suns. All of that was driven out by cheap cruddy PCs. Or more accurately, by the Macintosh, which copied their superficial aspects and left out the important stuff, which was in turn copied by Windows. The real irony is that IBM, which was responsible for getting us into this mess, knew better. We know this because they had already produced a desktop 68000-based workstation with a real operating system (the CS-9000), and because their original intent with the PC (according to a trustworthy source who wishes to remain anonymous) was for it to be 68000-based also, but they couldn't get the chips in the required volume cheaply enough in the required timeframe, and the Boca Raton project wasn't funded to do any actual engineering, so they went for the 8088 and here we are. What IBM could not know was how their PC would take off. Clearly if they had known, they might have done many things differently. - Frank ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Fri, 19 Apr 02 07:02:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbJfof3tvec57Tzbjm1jTWQniPPp+/w1P7xHq/7iOkoRd7epyZJMb17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Apr 2002 10:27:45 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-64 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11176 In article , "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote: > >Holy crap. > >Pat? Is that you? Where've you been? It's been a *long* time. What's >new? > > >Patrick Sweeney wrote in message <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com>... An e-mail friend of mine was also glad to see him make a post. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 18 Apr 2002 23:29:17 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 25 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87lmblyqia.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <5Fqv8.66255$%l3.6482906@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1019171543 5578 202.154.80.9 (18 Apr 2002 23:12:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 23:12:23 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p219.qv1-02.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11182 peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > The "industry standard package" stuff was a retcon. After all, the > "industry standard" PC package in 1981 was S-100. > What was killer was *abundant* *cheap* 32-bit systems with ample > software. > It doesn't matter what package they were in. Once one contender got > far enough ahead they would *be* the "industry standard" no matter > what they were. The killer was the IBM badge on them. Once the boxes get every where, then changing the contents was OK to the bean counters and managers. Remember the 'PC' boards with a 68000 on them? Order a 'standard' PC and one of them as an 'option'. Throw the x86 booard in the bin, and what the accounting dept does not know won't worry them... -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 18 Apr 2002 23:37:28 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 22 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87hem9yq4n.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1019171545 5578 202.154.80.9 (18 Apr 2002 23:12:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 23:12:25 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p219.qv1-02.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11180 Mark Crispin writes: > Plus some unique disadvantages; both the Jupiter and Venus projects > were in shambles, and it was only possible to rescue one (Venus > became the VAX 8600). See if you can find an audio tape of 'The Tale of Two Venuses' from the 84 DECUS EU in Amsterdam. I suspect that one was never given in the US, but it was clearly explained that the original Venus project had totally imploded, and the only way was to scrap the lot and start again, with new tools being the most urgent part of it. That sucked everything in, and Jupiter was stranded. 10 years later, it is the KC-10 patents that Intel have stolen for the PPro. And the MESI cache protocol I think. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:20:52 -0700 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 64 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva1.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1019164855 24310 (None) 140.142.17.39 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu To: Frank da Cruz In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva1.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11177 On 18 Apr 2002, Frank da Cruz wrote: > > > You can't get a virus by reading your email with MM ... > > Unfortunately, that is not true. > OK, I'll bite, how? Buffer overflows > > > A great deal of the success of Windows-based viruses is due not to bugs > > > but to the fundamental design of Windows: the wide-open file system, the > > > wide-open access to every resource and device. > > That fundamental design did not begin with Windows. It was basic to the > > entire PC revolution. > Right, but early PCs were for hackers and tinkerers, not for the mass > market. However, that wasn't what the PC advocates said. It was clear from the beginning that the goal was a PC on every desktop. > It was not until Windows 95 came out that the world changed. A > Windows 9x PC is a hideously complex and unsafe device operated by ordinary > untrained citizens. Whoever decided that computers were ready for the mass > market in 1995 was not being particularly responsible. PCs and Macs were mass marketed years earlier. What changed was connecting them to the Internet. Prior to approximately that time, "the network" for many people was dialing up to CompuServe, etc. at 1200bps using a terminal emulator. In other words, I don't blame Win95. If Win95 had never happened, it would have been MacOS or something else. I blame the web and MIME. I blame creeping featurism in HTML. I blame the evil notion of multimedia email (well known to be evil long before, but this time the good guys failed to beat it back). The Evil Empire must take some responsibility for all this, but so must Netscape. If IE and OE had never happened, we'd still be dealing with all these security bugs in Navigator and Communicator. > I'm pretty sure Unix had file-system security going back at least to V7 Yes, it did. But UNIX security was a joke. UNIX was a gentleman's timesharing system for the first decade of its life. > > Personal computers are what the advocates of the personal computer > > revolution said they should be. It turns out that their idea was flawed > > in some respects... :-) > Depends on which advocates. We all remember the advocates of the high-power > desktop bitmapped workstations -- Altos, Perqs, Stars, Apollos, early Suns. Yes, but all of these were still intended to give complete unrestrained access to their user. You had security on an Alto by having your own disk, which you took with you if you used a shared machine. > The real irony is that IBM, which was responsible for getting us into this > mess, knew better. I think that IBM saw PCs simply as glorified terminals for mainframes. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 18 Apr 2002 18:02:48 -0400 Organization: Columbia University Lines: 57 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: watsol.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 1019167369 215 128.59.39.139 (18 Apr 2002 22:02:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2002 22:02:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!64.245.249.51!sfo2-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!dfw-feed.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!news.columbia.edu!news-not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11184 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: > ... > PCs and Macs were mass marketed years earlier. What changed was > connecting them to the Internet. Prior to approximately that time, "the > network" for many people was dialing up to CompuServe, etc. at 1200bps > using a terminal emulator. > > In other words, I don't blame Win95. If Win95 had never happened, it > would have been MacOS or something else. > Sure. Gresham's Law predicts it too. You can drive out something good with something cheap and awful if people don't realize how awful it is, or don't care (even when they should). The cusp was where it became possible to sell computers to people who didn't know anything about them. It's like a dream come true -- what a perfect setup. Everything plays right into it too -- cognitive dissonance for example; if you spend thousands of dollars on a computer and then can't figure out how to use it or fix it when it breaks, you're going to blame yourself rather the people who made it. If you say bad things about it, you'll feel like an idiot for buying it (Psych 101 :-) > I blame the web and MIME... > I wasn't going to bring that up, but yes, MIME is a travesty for more reasons than I can count. When the drafts came out I commented politely but in detail, and got back only terse arrogant rebuffs or stone silence. I imagine I'm not the only one. There was obviously an agenda in place. Basically, MIME flies in the face of every notion of sound networking practice, in which one does not put proprietary formats and encodings on open public networks. And one especially does not facilitate an environment in which any random person on the planet can run programs on anybody else's computer. A few companies made billions, and millions of end users suffered. > > The real irony is that IBM, which was responsible for getting us into > > this mess, knew better. > > I think that IBM saw PCs simply as glorified terminals for mainframes. > Not at all! The 1981 IBM PC had NO WAY to communicate with a mainframe. It didn't know EBCDIC, it didn't hook to a control unit or an SNA network, didn't share any kind of common removable media, nothing. For some years, in fact, Kermit was it, period. For a while IBM even distributed PC Kermit as their connection tool (you had to use it in conjunction with a 3270 protocol conversion front end, like a Series/1 or 7171, and you used mainframe Kermit to exchange files). Their earlier PCs (the CS9000 and the APL/Basic one) didn't hook up to mainframes either. IBM just really wanted in when they saw CP/M computer sales start to take off, and they wanted to trump the 8-bit systems with a 16-bit one, but they lacked the foresight to either (a) protect themselves from Microsoft and the clone makers, or (b) to do a better job. But you're right, even if they had done all that, somebody else would have come along with something cheap and awful to trump whatever IBM did. In fact, they sort of did that anyway, right? - Frank ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 18 Apr 2002 22:21:46 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019168506 59313 10.0.0.43 (18 Apr 2002 22:21:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2002 22:21:46 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.it.ip-plus.net!news.it.ip-plus.net!news.it.colt.net!peernews2.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!feed-ev1!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11187 In article , Frank da Cruz wrote: >I'm pretty sure Unix had file-system security going back at least to V7 >(if I wasn't so lazy I'd get up and walk over to the bookcase and check on >V6 in the 1978 BSTJ Unix issue...) 3rd edition: chmod -- change mode chmod octal file1... The octal mode replaces the mode of each of the files. The mode is constructed from the OR of the following modes: 01 write for non-owner 02 read for non-owner 04 write for owner 10 read for owner 20 executable 40 set-uid Only the owner of a file may change its mode. Somewhat simpler than modern systems, but all the basic file protection was there... -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 18:49:20 -0700 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva1.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1019180962 13552 (None) 140.142.17.39 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva1.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11179 On 18 Apr 2002, Frank da Cruz wrote: > MIME is a travesty for more > reasons than I can count. When the drafts came out I commented politely > but in detail, and got back only terse arrogant rebuffs or stone silence. > I imagine I'm not the only one. There was obviously an agenda in place. > Basically, MIME flies in the face of every notion of sound networking > practice, in which one does not put proprietary formats and encodings on > open public networks. And one especially does not facilitate an > environment in which any random person on the planet can run programs on > anybody else's computer. You are greatly oversimplifying in some areas, and just plain wrong in others. I should know; I was there. I don't want to go into detail (there's still a lot of hard feelings), but I will say this: anything can be abused given sufficiently determined abusers. It was certainly *NOT* my intention that proprietary formats and encodings (or 69 million different character sets) be used in MIME. In fact, I made strenuous efforts to have such banned, in favor of a single official format, encoding, or character set for any particular use. Nor was it my intention that any random person could run programs on anyone else's computer either. Certain individuals had different notions. The biggest problem was that MIME permitted multimedia mail. I considered MMM to be a terrible idea (having survived two previous MMM fads), and still do. I considered richtext mail (now HTML mail) to be a bad idea too. Because of that, I was called all sorts of names. MMM was to be the way of the future. I gave up fighting it, and as far as I'm concerned, anybody who uses pretty picture mail programs such as Messenger and Outlook deserves all the viruses and worms that they get. The software I use is fully MIME-compliant, but it doesn't inflict grotesque abortions (such as HTML mail) on the world and is quite immune from Klez et al. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <87hem9yq4n.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 18 Apr 2002 22:32:15 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 5 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 18 Apr 2002 22:41:57 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11186 Paul Repacholi writes: > 10 years later, it is the KC-10 patents that Intel have stolen for > the PPro. And the MESI cache protocol I think. Got patent numbers (or titles)? ###### From: "David G. Conroy" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <87hem9yq4n.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Organization: Used only for posts to newsgroups X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.120.162.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr21.news.prodigy.com 1019197112 ST000 66.120.162.50 (Fri, 19 Apr 2002 02:18:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 02:18:32 EDT X-UserInfo1: [[PAPDCA[S@KRZPX@ZKBOFTBTR\B@GXLN@GZ_GYO^BTBTSUBYFWEAE[YJLYPIWKHTFCMZKVMB^[Z^DOBRVVMOSPFHNSYXVDIE@X\BUC@GTSX@DL^GKFFHQCCE\G[JJBMYDYIJCZM@AY]GNGPJD]YNNW\GSX^GSCKHA[]@CCB\[@LATPD\L@J\\PF]VR[QPJN Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 06:18:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!207.115.63.138!newscon04.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr21.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11174 I'm not sure that this is correct. I vaguely remember being interviewed by our (DEC's) lawyer when these suits were active, and I'm almost positive I remember him saying that the most troublesome patents came from a cancelled VAX (ANDROMEDA perhaps?) ---------- In article , Eric Smith wrote: > Paul Repacholi writes: >> 10 years later, it is the KC-10 patents that Intel have stolen for >> the PPro. And the MESI cache protocol I think. > > Got patent numbers (or titles)? ###### From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 19 Apr 2002 09:34:39 -0400 Organization: Columbia University Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: watsol.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 1019223280 20042 128.59.39.139 (19 Apr 2002 13:34:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Apr 2002 13:34:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.abs.net!news.voicenet.com!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!dfw-feed.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!news.columbia.edu!news-not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11185 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: : You are greatly oversimplifying in some areas, and just plain wrong in : others. I should know; I was there. : I wasn't blaming you! (Should I have been? :-) : Certain individuals had different notions. : Obviously. It looks to me like we are in total agreement about the effects of MIME. It opened up the Internet to hijacking by private interests. Essentially it says, "it's OK for me to send you anything as long as I tag it", and then it sets up a naming authority that rubber stamps anything any company asks it to, and poof, MS Word .DOC files and Code Page 1251 are instant standards, and if my network clients can't deal with them, I must be using the wrong platform. : I gave up fighting it... : When the IETF no longer cares about its own founding principals (such as the notion that only well-defined and standardized Common Intermediate Representations should appear on the wire, so well espoused in the early RFCs like RFC871), I don't blame you! This must be what it feels like to get old, as we curse and grumble about the world going to hell in a handbasket... - Frank ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 19 Apr 2002 13:49:58 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019224198 11022 10.0.0.43 (19 Apr 2002 13:49:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Apr 2002 13:49:58 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed.sjc.globix.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!64.42.15.2!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11183 In article , Frank da Cruz wrote: >Essentially it says, "it's OK for me to send you anything as long as I tag >it", and then it sets up a naming authority that rubber stamps anything any >company asks it to, and poof, MS Word .DOC files and Code Page 1251 are >instant standards, and if my network clients can't deal with them, I must be >using the wrong platform. Does it matter? MS clients used to send DOS- and Windows- specific character sets over links that were *supposed* to be pure ASCII or ISO8859.1. What makes you think that tagging would make any difference. If they had to convert Word documents to RTF and send them as "text/plain" with a cookie that told their mail clients that they were Word documents, they'd do it. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:57:38 -0700 Organization: Networks and Distributed Computing Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva1.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1019235461 24998 (None) 140.142.17.39 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Content-Length: 314159 (believe this at your own risk) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva1.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11178 On 19 Apr 2002, Frank da Cruz wrote: > Essentially it says, "it's OK for me to send you anything as long as I tag > it", Attachments in email had to happen. > and then it sets up a naming authority that rubber stamps anything any > company asks it to, That's the problem. There *was* an effort to restrict what would get approved. But certain individuals wanted the rubber stamp and they won. There should have been no more than about a dozen or so registered charsets for email. An action by a certain individual ruined that. > and poof, MS Word .DOC files and Code Page 1251 are > instant standards, and if my network clients can't deal with them, I must be > using the wrong platform. There was a legitimate need to mail Word documents and spreadsheets as attachments. Code page 1251 in email wasn't the Evil Empire's fault. Someone else inflicted that travesty (and many others). It's a long story which I'd rather not tell. > When the IETF no longer cares about its own founding principals (such as > the notion that only well-defined and standardized Common Intermediate > Representations should appear on the wire, Yup. > so well espoused in the early > RFCs like RFC871), I don't blame you! This must be what it feels like to > get old, as we curse and grumble about the world going to hell in a > handbasket... Now you know why I look forward to that glorious day when I pull the plug on my network link for the last time. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Sat, 20 Apr 02 07:13:35 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb6uGY1tC4jvW1r13c7ofwPA+gD7p9yX24L5gdDMrRrjyZns1PKShxw X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Apr 2002 10:38:31 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-125 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11193 In article , Dowe Keller wrote: >fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: > >> Right, but early PCs were for hackers and tinkerers, not for the mass >> market. It was not until Windows 95 came out that the world changed. A >> Windows 9x PC is a hideously complex and unsafe device operated by ordinary >> untrained citizens. Whoever decided that computers were ready for the mass >> market in 1995 was not being particularly responsible. (Of course, it's >> not their job to be responsible, and I think that's the biggest change >> from 20 years ago.) > >I hardly think that my Macintosh Plus is a machine for hackers and >tinkerers, It was marketed IIRC as "The computer for the rest of us" >(what ever that means). I also recall my mother working with a big >crufty IBM AT 286 box hat I don't recall ever running WinDOS 95 on. > >I do agree however whole heartedly with the gist of your statement. >Many of Windows' faults are a direct result of a kind of mind-set that >grew out of the hobbyist nature of most early microcomputers. This >mind-set is founded on the assumptions that: > >0. There is only one user (i.e. no file protection). >1. There is only one process at a time (i.e. no memory protection). >2. The user isn't doing anything important (i.e. crashes are > acceptable). -1. We know what the user wants to do and we're going to do it for him even if he says "NO!". This is the one that always gets my dander up. > >On a hacker's toy, these are not big issues. I think it is. You want that new young thing to grow up and buy more based on what he's learned when hacking. A corporation cannot personally train every user. Some day, the corporation is going to have to hire some of those users. Why spend money teaching them the basics? Every body doing anything with a PC should infer what a file vs. a directory is by the time they finish installing their first game. > .. But on a machine that is >responsible for doing real work, they are wholly unacceptable Yes. I think of it as computing maturity. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: From: Dowe Keller Date: 19 Apr 2002 23:48:55 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 38 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.240 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.240 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1019289421 206.169.219.240 (20 Apr 2002 00:57:01 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11194 fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: > Right, but early PCs were for hackers and tinkerers, not for the mass > market. It was not until Windows 95 came out that the world changed. A > Windows 9x PC is a hideously complex and unsafe device operated by ordinary > untrained citizens. Whoever decided that computers were ready for the mass > market in 1995 was not being particularly responsible. (Of course, it's > not their job to be responsible, and I think that's the biggest change > from 20 years ago.) I hardly think that my Macintosh Plus is a machine for hackers and tinkerers, It was marketed IIRC as "The computer for the rest of us" (what ever that means). I also recall my mother working with a big crufty IBM AT 286 box hat I don't recall ever running WinDOS 95 on. I do agree however whole heartedly with the gist of your statement. Many of Windows' faults are a direct result of a kind of mind-set that grew out of the hobbyist nature of most early microcomputers. This mind-set is founded on the assumptions that: 0. There is only one user (i.e. no file protection). 1. There is only one process at a time (i.e. no memory protection). 2. The user isn't doing anything important (i.e. crashes are acceptable). On a hacker's toy, these are not big issues. But on a machine that is responsible for doing real work, they are wholly unacceptable > What IBM could not know was how their PC would take off. Clearly if they > had known, they might have done many things differently. I would like to believe so, but I doubt it. FWIW, There were quite a few decent machines around based on the 68000 that didn't make it. -- dowe@sierratel.com "Whip me. Beat me. Make me maintain AIX." (By Stephan Zielinski) ###### From: baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 20 Apr 2002 06:38:58 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 111 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.92.164.43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1019309938 32663 127.0.0.1 (20 Apr 2002 13:38:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Apr 2002 13:38:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!telocity-west!TELOCITY!hub1.nntpserver.com!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11200 fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) wrote in message news:... > In article > , > Mark Crispin wrote: > > > This was, by the way, fairly easy to predict early on in the "personal > > computer revolution". The idea that a central IS infrastructure would go > > away once everybody had PCs was nice (and emotionally satisfying for the > > IS dept bashers), but based on the fantasy that computer users *want* to > > be sysadmins. As it turns out, most computer users do not want to be > > sysadmins, and will pay good money so they don't have to be. > > > For a good laugh, read this: > > http://www.columbia.edu/acis/security/safecomputing.html > > This is a truly horrific description of what you are letting yourself in for > when you want to have an Internet-connected Windows PC. > > > > It had a real file system with ownership and permissions -- an idea that > > > didn't find its way back onto the PC desktop until this year, when > > > Windows XP started coming preinstalled on new PCs > > > > NT and Win2K always had ownership and permissions, and that's what I've > > run on *my* desktop for years. As far as I was concerned, DOS-based > > Windows was for loading games and that's it. > > > Right but hardly anybody used Windows NT until just recently, when PCs no > longer came preloaded with Win9x or ME. Even now, it's going to take many > years for Win9x and ME to fade away, and as long as they are connected to > the Internet (e.g. in university offices and dorm rooms) they are disasters > waiting to happen. > > > > You can't get a virus by reading your email with MM ... > > > > Unfortunately, that is not true. > > > OK, I'll bite, how? All I can think of is what used to be called the > "Berkeley bug", in which embedded escape sequences in your email made the > terminal transmit stuff back to the host (only works with certain kinds of > terminals you don't see much any more for exactly that reason). > > > > A great deal of the success of Windows-based viruses is due not to bugs > > > but to the fundamental design of Windows: the wide-open file system, the > > > wide-open access to every resource and device. > > > > That fundamental design did not begin with Windows. It was basic to the > > entire PC revolution. > > > Right, but early PCs were for hackers and tinkerers, not for the mass > market. It was not until Windows 95 came out that the world changed. A > Windows 9x PC is a hideously complex and unsafe device operated by ordinary > untrained citizens. Whoever decided that computers were ready for the mass > market in 1995 was not being particularly responsible. (Of course, it's > not their job to be responsible, and I think that's the biggest change > from 20 years ago.) > > > I don't know about Unix. Unix security was pretty much non-existant > > until sometime in the 1980s. Or rather, it was security through > > obscurity. > > > I'm pretty sure Unix had file-system security going back at least to V7 > (if I wasn't so lazy I'd get up and walk over to the bookcase and check on > V6 in the 1978 BSTJ Unix issue...) > > > > suddenly all these concepts > > > became legacy, depracated baggage of the past in today's fast-paced > > > marketplace, in which customers and end users suffer and the CEOs bail > > > out with 10-figure golden parachutes. > > > > Personal computers are what the advocates of the personal computer > > revolution said they should be. It turns out that their idea was flawed > > in some respects... :-) > > > Depends on which advocates. We all remember the advocates of the high-power > desktop bitmapped workstations -- Altos, Perqs, Stars, Apollos, early Suns. > All of that was driven out by cheap cruddy PCs. Or more accurately, by the > Macintosh, which copied their superficial aspects and left out the important > stuff, which was in turn copied by Windows. > > The real irony is that IBM, which was responsible for getting us into this > mess, knew better. We know this because they had already produced a desktop > 68000-based workstation with a real operating system (the CS-9000), and > because their original intent with the PC (according to a trustworthy source > who wishes to remain anonymous) was for it to be 68000-based also, but they > couldn't get the chips in the required volume cheaply enough in the required > timeframe, and the Boca Raton project wasn't funded to do any actual > engineering, so they went for the 8088 and here we are. > > What IBM could not know was how their PC would take off. Clearly if they > had known, they might have done many things differently. > > - Frank I'm not too sure. Byte ran this tidbit about the CS-9000 (or is that the CS/9000?) http://www.lowendmac.com/blast/byte8402.html << Review: IBM CS-9000 Lab Computer There's a tale that IBM had considered the Motorola 68000 CPU for their personal computer, but went with the Intel 8088 in part because it made for a cheaper design. The IBM CS-9000 was based on the 68000, the same 8 MHz CPU found in the new Macintosh. Not a personal computer by any stretch of the imagination, the powerful Lab Computer started at $5,000+ and ran OS 1.1 or Xenix, not any of the established PC operating systems. >> "established PC operating systems?" CP/M? This was 1984. ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 20 Apr 2002 22:51:45 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 33 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87znzy8ltq.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <87hem9yq4n.fsf@prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1019321941 31431 202.154.80.9 (20 Apr 2002 16:59:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 16:59:01 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p200.qv1-02.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11203 Eric Smith writes: > Paul Repacholi writes: > > 10 years later, it is the KC-10 patents that Intel have stolen for > > the PPro. And the MESI cache protocol I think. > > Got patent numbers (or titles)? From posts by Alan Folmsbee, to comp.arch in May '97 The last covers the MESI cache I think. I can't remember which one is from the KC-10 but was suprised that a patent from then was involved. Mind, the first refers to a 32081, and that is the FPU for a J-11/uV-II isn't it? #5,091,845 System for controlling the storage of information in a cache memory #5,125,083 Method and apparatus for resolving a variable number of potential memory access conflicts in a pipelined computer system #4,755,936 Apparatus and method for providing a cache memory unit with a write operation utilizing two system clock cycles #4,847,804 Apparatus and method for data copy consistency in a multi-cache data processing unit -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### From: Ben Franchuk Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 12:52:55 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3CC1B907.46DA660B@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!proxad.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11202 Baby Peanut wrote: > "established PC operating systems?" CP/M? This was 1984. I think at that time you had 3 OS's competing for the PC. MS-DOS, CP/M -86 and USD-Pascal.(Lets not forget - but one can try - of that dreadful M$ rom BASIC too ) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html ###### From: "David G. Conroy" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CBCCD86.539EDBB9@nyc.rr.com> <3T4v8.79729$%8.6750420@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <87hem9yq4n.fsf@prep.synonet.com> <87znzy8ltq.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Organization: Used only for posts to newsgroups X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 5 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.171.7.165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr21.news.prodigy.com 1019331228 ST000 64.171.7.165 (Sat, 20 Apr 2002 15:33:48 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 15:33:48 EDT X-UserInfo1: [[PAPDCA[S@KRZPX@ZKBOFTBTR\B@GXLN@GZ_GYO^BTBTSUBYFWEAE[YJLYPIWKHTFCMZKVMB^[Z^DOBRVVMOSPFHNSYXVDIE@X\BUC@GTSX@DL^GKFFHQCCE\G[JJBMYDYIJCZM@AY]GNGPJD]YNNW\GSX^GSCKHA[]@CCB\[@LATPD\L@J\\PF]VR[QPJN Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:33:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!news000.worldonline.se!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!207.115.63.138!newscon04.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr21.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11201 > #4,755,936 > Apparatus and method for providing a cache memory unit with a write > operation utilizing two system clock cycles I'm almost positive that this is the nautilus (8800) write buffer patent. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 20 Apr 2002 20:54:32 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019336072 15671 10.0.0.43 (20 Apr 2002 20:54:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Apr 2002 20:54:32 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!feed-ev1!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11204 IBM's first personal computer was the IBM 5100, and it was released in 1975. It had up to 64K of RAM, a custom microcoded processor built of small scale ICs, and used a quarter-inch cartridge tape for mass storage. They had one at Berkeley, and it would "boot" into an APL interpreter. Apparently they had BASIC for it as well. It was cute as a bug, and I wish I had one now (or an interpreter for it). Since it had a built-in screen and a carrying case, it was labelled the "IBM 5100 portable computer". I picked it up once... it was about the size of a large suitcase and weighed about as much as a large suitcase full of books. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 20 Apr 2002 16:01:57 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 39 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 20 Apr 2002 16:11:57 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11206 peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > IBM's first personal computer was the IBM 5100, and it was released in 1975. No, their first personal computer was the 610 Auto-Point Computer, announced in 1957. During its development it was known as the Personal Automatic Calculator. Reference: _IBM's Early Computers_ by Bashe et al., MIT Press, 1986 It was somewhat larger and heavier than the 5100, though, since it used vacuum tubes. Rented for $1150/month, purchase price $55,000. > It had up to 64K of RAM, a custom microcoded processor built of small scale > ICs, The "PALM" processor ("Put All Logic in Microcode"), built from TTL-compatible gate arrays containing up to 134 gates each. PALM executed vertical microcode from bipolar ROM. For APL, the microcode implemented the IBM 360 user-level architecture. For BASIC it implemented a different architecture, possibly from the System/3. The actual language interpreters (macrocode) were stored in high-density NMOS ROM. The APL interpreter was APL\360 with only slight changes. > and it would "boot" into an APL interpreter. Apparently they > had BASIC for it as well. If you had the dual language version (model C1 through C4, depending on the installed RAM), there was a switch on the front panel to select the language. Since the APL and/or BASIC interpreters were in ROM, the "boot" was automatic and fairly quick. > I picked it up once... it was about the size of a large suitcase and > weighed about as much as a large suitcase full of books. About 50 lb., IIRC. 24 inches by 17.5 inches by 8 inches. http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/5100/ ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 21 Apr 2002 14:41:43 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019400103 72904 10.0.0.43 (21 Apr 2002 14:41:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Apr 2002 14:41:43 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11211 In article , Eric Smith wrote: >The "PALM" processor ("Put All Logic in Microcode"), built from TTL-compatible >gate arrays containing up to 134 gates each. PALM executed vertical >microcode from bipolar ROM. Would that count as another ancestor of RISC? > For APL, the microcode implemented the >IBM 360 user-level architecture. I wanted to say it emulated a subset of the 360, but that didn't sound right somehow. I guess I was getting the PALM and Microcode confused. >http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/5100/ Any emulators available for it? -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Message-ID: <3CC41F6F.5030001@srv.net> From: Kevin Handy User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020416 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 10:28:39 EDT Organization: WebUseNet Corp. - "ReInventing The UseNet" Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:34:23 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11214 Peter da Silva wrote: > In article , > Eric Smith wrote: > >>The "PALM" processor ("Put All Logic in Microcode"), built from TTL-compatible >>gate arrays containing up to 134 gates each. PALM executed vertical >>microcode from bipolar ROM. > > > Would that count as another ancestor of RISC? Isn't the idea behind RISC to lose the microcode, and do everything in hardware in order to reduce the number of cycles required? (Fewer, simpler instructions, making it easier to hardwire them) That would put this CPU out of the RISC category. > > >>For APL, the microcode implemented the >>IBM 360 user-level architecture. > > > I wanted to say it emulated a subset of the 360, but that didn't sound right > somehow. I guess I was getting the PALM and Microcode confused. > > >>http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/5100/ > > > Any emulators available for it? > ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 22 Apr 2002 15:35:29 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3CC41F6F.5030001@srv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019489729 54069 10.0.0.43 (22 Apr 2002 15:35:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 2002 15:35:29 GMT X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!feed-ev1!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11213 In article <3CC41F6F.5030001@srv.net>, Kevin Handy wrote: >Peter da Silva wrote: >> In article , >> Eric Smith wrote: >>>gate arrays containing up to 134 gates each. PALM executed vertical >>>microcode from bipolar ROM. >> Would that count as another ancestor of RISC? >Isn't the idea behind RISC to lose the microcode, and do everything >in hardware in order to reduce the number of cycles required? I'm thinking of the relationship between vertical microcode and RISC, and IBM's role in the development of the idea. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 22 Apr 2002 21:32:51 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6u8z7fv89o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3CC41F6F.5030001@srv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1019503974 684 10.0.3.2 (22 Apr 2002 19:32:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 2002 19:32:54 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11217 Kevin Handy writes: > Peter da Silva wrote: > > In article , > > Eric Smith wrote: > > > >>The "PALM" processor ("Put All Logic in Microcode"), built from TTL-compatible > >>gate arrays containing up to 134 gates each. PALM executed vertical > >>microcode from bipolar ROM. > > > > Would that count as another ancestor of RISC? > > Isn't the idea behind RISC to lose the microcode, and do everything > in hardware in order to reduce the number of cycles required? > (Fewer, simpler instructions, making it easier to hardwire them) > That would put this CPU out of the RISC category. The idea behind RISC is reduced _complexity_ of instructions, so that they can be fastly pipelined. In particular getting rid of as many pipeline stalling data dependant variations in execution path, such as indirect addressing. Microcode engines are usually simple and so RISCy. Particularly horizontal ones can count as RISCs, but vertical ones tend to go through many cycles, and so throw away the advantages. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 22 Apr 2002 20:32:38 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3CC41F6F.5030001@srv.net> <6u8z7fv89o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019507558 69955 10.0.0.43 (22 Apr 2002 20:32:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 2002 20:32:38 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!logbridge.uoregon.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11218 In article <6u8z7fv89o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >Microcode engines are usually simple and so RISCy. Particularly >horizontal ones can count as RISCs, but vertical ones tend to go >through many cycles, and so throw away the advantages. Horizontal microcode is more like VLIW than RISC, no? -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 22 Apr 2002 23:57:24 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6u1yd7v1kr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3CC41F6F.5030001@srv.net> <6u8z7fv89o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1019512644 1282 10.0.3.2 (22 Apr 2002 21:57:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 2002 21:57:24 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11226 peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > In article <6u8z7fv89o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: > >Microcode engines are usually simple and so RISCy. Particularly > >horizontal ones can count as RISCs, but vertical ones tend to go > >through many cycles, and so throw away the advantages. > > Horizontal microcode is more like VLIW than RISC, no? If you reverse it: VLIW and RISC are a lot like horizontal microcode. VLIW expands on RISC to drive multiple sets of instruction units at the same time. While RISC (and microcode) usually only have one space for driving set of units per instruction, but may handle multiple identical format instructions at once, VLIW has one extremely wide instruction, triggering all actually available units in an compile-time selected way. VLIW saves the run-time figuring out what instructions can be combined and distributed over units. Price is that one can not change the unit arrangement in future processor generations without becoming binary incompatible. That has killed VLIW as commercial architecture. Itanic? Huh. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 22 Apr 2002 23:08:10 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <6u8z7fv89o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6u1yd7v1kr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 1019516890 78419 10.0.0.43 (22 Apr 2002 23:08:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 2002 23:08:10 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11236 In article <6u1yd7v1kr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >> In article <6u8z7fv89o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, >> Neil Franklin wrote: >> >Microcode engines are usually simple and so RISCy. Particularly >> >horizontal ones can count as RISCs, but vertical ones tend to go >> >through many cycles, and so throw away the advantages. >> Horizontal microcode is more like VLIW than RISC, no? >If you reverse it: VLIW and RISC are a lot like horizontal microcode. Well, VLIW is. >VLIW expands on RISC to drive multiple sets of instruction units at the >same time. I don't consider VLIW to be an expansion of RISC. It's a different approach to the same problem. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it Date: 22 Apr 2002 19:28:56 -0400 Organization: Columbia University Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: watsol.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 1019518138 17175 128.59.39.139 (22 Apr 2002 23:28:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 2002 23:28:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!dfw-feed.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!news.columbia.edu!news-not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11237 In article , Eric Smith wrote: : peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: : > IBM's first personal computer was the IBM 5100, and it was released in : > 1975. : : No, their first personal computer was the 610 Auto-Point Computer, : announced in 1957. During its development it was known as the Personal : Automatic Calculator. : : Reference: _IBM's Early Computers_ by Bashe et al., MIT Press, 1986 : : It was somewhat larger and heavier than the 5100, though, since it used : vacuum tubes. Rented for $1150/month, purchase price $55,000. : Here's a picture: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/610.html As you can see, it was personal only in the sense that one person used it :-) In fact it was designed and built in 1948, and it took IBM 9 years to figure out what to do with it. - Frank ###### Message-ID: <3CC48079.10587793@trailing-edge.com> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 21:28:25 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <6u8z7fv89o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6u1yd7v1kr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: 1019525305 reader2.ash.ops.us.uu.net 17251 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-x2.support.nl!news2.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!spool0900.news.uu.net!reader0902.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11233 Peter da Silva wrote: > > In article <6u1yd7v1kr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: > >VLIW expands on RISC to drive multiple sets of instruction units at the > >same time. > > I don't consider VLIW to be an expansion of RISC. It's a different approach > to the same problem. One of the characteristics often ascribed to RISC is "easy to decode instructions". VLIW is, to an extent, an expansion, in that you have to decode the instruction before you even encode it :-). Tim. ###### From: "David G. Conroy" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it References: <3CC41F6F.5030001@srv.net> <6u8z7fv89o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: Used only for posts to newsgroups X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.171.7.89 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr13.news.prodigy.com 1019533215 ST000 64.171.7.89 (Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:40:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:40:15 EDT X-UserInfo1: [[OKRR_D[ZVUBFH[OZK@_TDAYZOZ@GXOXZYT]UEK@YUDUWYAKVUOPCW[ML\JXUCKVFDYZKBMSFX^OMSAFNTINTDDMVW[X\THOPXZRVOCJTUTPC\_JSBVX\KAOTBAJBVMZTYAKMNLDI_MFDSSOLXINH__FS^\WQGHGI^C@E[A_CF\AQLDQ\BTMPLDFNVUQ_VM Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 03:40:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr13.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:11228 I usually think of the difference between horizontal and vertical microcode as density of encoding of the control fields (in the limit horizontal microcode does none). A well encoded vertical microengine needs no more cycles than a horizontal one for the paths that count. ---------- In article <6u8z7fv89o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > Microcode engines are usually simple and so RISCy. Particularly > horizontal ones can count as RISCs, but vertical ones tend to go > through many cycles, and so throw away the advantages.