From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Date: Thu, 24 Jan 02 12:38:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <3C4F7869.6451C4F8@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C500360.A00B8C00@bartek.dontspamme.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZr39lm80cug/qeo5suYtNPgMuzV1d9L4oy1x2A/BEIyu7wFfvpYnG2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2002 14:49:08 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-236-83 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9666 In article <3C500360.A00B8C00@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat wrote: >"Ms. 4.88's" wrote: >> >> Either millions of monkeys banging on keyboards or the insane mind of Arthur >> Krewat produced the following: >> >> >This was the way it was described to me - the paper-tape reader >> >on the 8i was used to bootstrap the KA10. And that was >> >described to me by two different people who often disagreed >> >with each other ... >> >> That may have been the way it was described to you, but it was wrong. >> >> Every KA I worked on (about 8 of them) didn't have a PDP8 based multiplexor. >> They seem to boot from the papertape just fine. > >Then you didn't work on the KA10 I'm talking about. > >> Read one of the phone books, that explains how I/O and serial devices like the >> tape reader and punch worked. > >Anything is possible when you try hard enough. > >Urban legend? Nope - a good friend is telling me all this and he >remembers as it was - he had to boot the thing many times. > >Sorry if you don't believe me. I believe you; customers did all kinds of weird things :-). I'd like to know what device code the guy used for the readin. I've booted a KA from PTR, DTA, MTA, and DSK. There's no reason that an -8 couldn't be a booted device but I would think that somebody had to do some soldering. I'd also like to know why it was done. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Date: Fri, 25 Jan 02 09:46:18 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <3C4F7869.6451C4F8@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C500360.A00B8C00@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C502D04.73678C85@bartek.dontspamme.net> <51f05u01lldtscr5v4pfgv5j58c18oe8cu@4ax.com> <3C503F7C.CF01F739@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C509844.BAAE62A5@bartek.dontspamme.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZn4rC33l/a1I1MkCFcyrkmDQH1yOcalVh7hhdUN1GGyMOF2hyr3BVv X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 2002 11:56:57 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-137 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9713 In article <3C509844.BAAE62A5@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat wrote: >Mark Crispin wrote: >> >> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Arthur Krewat wrote: >> > From what I've heard, it was a DMA device. This may be how the 8i got the >> > bootstrap into the KA10. Remember, this was a DCA device - the mentality >> > was one of "do everything from the 8i". >> >> I once knew the people at DCA fairly well, but I have never heard of them >> doing such a thing. The issue at hand is that it's pointless. The thing >> that is bootstraped into the KA10 is not the operating system, it's the >> disk bootstrap that will load the operating system. Since every KA10 had >> a paper tape reader and bootstrap built in, it's pointless to do it any >> other way. > >You have to remember that unlike you, many people do not do things because >they make sense ... :) >Again, who knows - maybe some enterprising predecessor of mine broke >the damn reader on the KA10 console. So, he made it possible to read >it from the 8i... I have no idea ... but it was done. My guess would be that a PHB decided that operators should only be allowed to touch the little computer and never the big one :-). Once upon a time, I actually had a boss like that. I was allowed to touch a terminal but the The Terminal (CTY). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3C4F7869.6451C4F8@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:02:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1011841363 24.186.100.134 (Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:02:43 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:02:43 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9680 John Sauter wrote: > > Arthur Krewat wrote (excerpted): > > And, the 8i was used to boot the KA10, so it really was > a front-end. > > Huh? At Sanders we had a KA10 with a PDP-8/i terminal > multiplexor on the I/O bus, but it had nothing to do > with booting the KA10. The KA10 had a hard console > with lots of lights and switches, and booting was done > from its paper tape reader. This was the way it was described to me - the paper-tape reader on the 8i was used to bootstrap the KA10. And that was described to me by two different people who often disagreed with each other ... For all I know, the initial 10-20 instructions were to get the 8i to read from the paper tape and write to a serial port that was the paper-tape reader for the KA10 ... but it seems to be certain that the 8i was involved in booting the KA. Possibly writing the bootstrap into the KA core and walking over to the KA (which already had the start address setup on the toggles) and hitting RUN. I had my hands on that paper-tape reader for a few years and ditched it when I had to move ... too bad. it was a 20ma current looper. aak ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3C4F7D35.34AF83E5@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <3C4F7869.6451C4F8@bartek.dontspamme.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:22:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1011842576 24.186.100.134 (Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:22:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:22:56 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9683 Arthur Krewat wrote: > > John Sauter wrote: > > > > Arthur Krewat wrote (excerpted): > > > > And, the 8i was used to boot the KA10, so it really was > > a front-end. > > > > Huh? At Sanders we had a KA10 with a PDP-8/i terminal > > multiplexor on the I/O bus, but it had nothing to do > > with booting the KA10. The KA10 had a hard console > > with lots of lights and switches, and booting was done > > from its paper tape reader. > > This was the way it was described to me - the paper-tape reader > on the 8i was used to bootstrap the KA10. And that was > described to me by two different people who often disagreed > with each other ... Bruce, are you lurking here? If so, please settle this, you are one of two who disagree :) You of all people would remember what went on. aak ###### From: Ms. 4.88's <> Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:03:18 -0500 Organization: Association of Toy Pullers Message-ID: Reply-To: 127.0.0.1 References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <3C4F7869.6451C4F8@bartek.dontspamme.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!Barn. Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9689 Either millions of monkeys banging on keyboards or the insane mind of Arthur Krewat produced the following: >This was the way it was described to me - the paper-tape reader >on the 8i was used to bootstrap the KA10. And that was >described to me by two different people who often disagreed >with each other ... That may have been the way it was described to you, but it was wrong. Every KA I worked on (about 8 of them) didn't have a PDP8 based multiplexor. They seem to boot from the papertape just fine. Read one of the phone books, that explains how I/O and serial devices like the tape reader and punch worked. Gawd, Urban Legends hit the KA-10. ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3C500360.A00B8C00@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <3C4F7869.6451C4F8@bartek.dontspamme.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:57:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1011877058 24.186.100.134 (Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:57:38 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:57:38 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9675 "Ms. 4.88's" wrote: > > Either millions of monkeys banging on keyboards or the insane mind of Arthur > Krewat produced the following: > > >This was the way it was described to me - the paper-tape reader > >on the 8i was used to bootstrap the KA10. And that was > >described to me by two different people who often disagreed > >with each other ... > > That may have been the way it was described to you, but it was wrong. > > Every KA I worked on (about 8 of them) didn't have a PDP8 based multiplexor. > They seem to boot from the papertape just fine. Then you didn't work on the KA10 I'm talking about. > Read one of the phone books, that explains how I/O and serial devices like the > tape reader and punch worked. Anything is possible when you try hard enough. Urban legend? Nope - a good friend is telling me all this and he remembers as it was - he had to boot the thing many times. Sorry if you don't believe me. aak ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3C502D04.73678C85@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <3C4F7869.6451C4F8@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C500360.A00B8C00@bartek.dontspamme.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:52:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1011887557 24.186.100.134 (Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:52:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:52:37 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!gestalt.direcpc.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9678 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >Urban legend? Nope - a good friend is telling me all this and he > >remembers as it was - he had to boot the thing many times. > > > >Sorry if you don't believe me. > > I believe you; customers did all kinds of weird things :-). > I'd like to know what device code the guy used for the readin. > I've booted a KA from PTR, DTA, MTA, and DSK. There's > no reason that an -8 couldn't be a booted device but I would > think that somebody had to do some soldering. I'd also like > to know why it was done. The 8i was really a DCA comm rack. It has a DCA logo on the front of it. And believe me, there were things done by everyone including DCA to make it all work together. This KA10 was also bought used. It was installed up until '82. aak ###### From: Ms. 4.88's <> Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:56:47 -0500 Organization: Association of Toy Pullers Message-ID: <51f05u01lldtscr5v4pfgv5j58c18oe8cu@4ax.com> Reply-To: 127.0.0.1 References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <3C4F7869.6451C4F8@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C500360.A00B8C00@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C502D04.73678C85@bartek.dontspamme.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!Barn. Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9691 Ah, it wasn't a real KA, it was a HACK!!!!!! :-P Not a bad one, but still a hack. How was the -8 connected to the KA? e.g. was it an interrupt device, or did it have DMA i/o ability? Either millions of monkeys banging on keyboards or the insane mind of Arthur Krewat produced the following: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >Urban legend? Nope - a good friend is telling me all this and he >> >remembers as it was - he had to boot the thing many times. >> > >> >Sorry if you don't believe me. >> >> I believe you; customers did all kinds of weird things :-). >> I'd like to know what device code the guy used for the readin. >> I've booted a KA from PTR, DTA, MTA, and DSK. There's >> no reason that an -8 couldn't be a booted device but I would >> think that somebody had to do some soldering. I'd also like >> to know why it was done. > >The 8i was really a DCA comm rack. It has a DCA logo on the front >of it. > >And believe me, there were things done by everyone including DCA >to make it all work together. > >This KA10 was also bought used. It was installed up until '82. > >aak ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3C503F7C.CF01F739@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <3C4F7869.6451C4F8@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C500360.A00B8C00@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C502D04.73678C85@bartek.dontspamme.net> <51f05u01lldtscr5v4pfgv5j58c18oe8cu@4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:12:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1011892357 24.186.100.134 (Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:12:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:12:37 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9681 "Ms. 4.88's" wrote: > > Ah, it wasn't a real KA, it was a HACK!!!!!! :-P > > Not a bad one, but still a hack. yes! I thought that was obvious ? :) > How was the -8 connected to the KA? e.g. was it an interrupt device, or did it > have DMA i/o ability? From what I've heard, it was a DMA device. This may be how the 8i got the bootstrap into the KA10. Remember, this was a DCA device - the mentality was one of "do everything from the 8i". There were a total of 160 serial ports which could do better than 1200 baud, although most of them were 300 baud LA36's (what were the LA36-type terminals with the rocker switches on the left hand side - unlike the LA36 which had push-buttons?) Like the later KS10's running TOPS-10 6.03a, software support from DEC was non-existant for obvious reasons :) > Either millions of monkeys banging on keyboards or the insane mind of Arthur > Krewat produced the following: insane is right! aak ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 From: Christopher Stacy Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Message-ID: Sender: cstacy@BONK Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:47:45 GMT References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <3C4F7869.6451C4F8@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C500360.A00B8C00@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp0c019.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.umass.edu!world!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9674 >>>>> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:57:38 GMT, Arthur Krewat ("Arthur") writes: Arthur> "Ms. 4.88's" wrote: >> >> Either millions of monkeys banging on keyboards or the insane mind of Arthur >> Krewat produced the following: >> >> >This was the way it was described to me - the paper-tape reader >> >on the 8i was used to bootstrap the KA10. And that was >> >described to me by two different people who often disagreed >> >with each other ... >> >> That may have been the way it was described to you, but it was wrong. >> >> Every KA I worked on (about 8 of them) didn't have a PDP8 based multiplexor. >> They seem to boot from the papertape just fine. Arthur> Then you didn't work on the KA10 I'm talking about. Arthur> Urban legend? Nope - a good friend is telling me all this and he Arthur> remembers as it was - he had to boot the thing many times. I agree with "Ms 4.88's" that a normal stock KA10 certainly did not have a PDP-8 front-end, but that doesn't mean yours didn't! You boot a KA10 by pressing a console switch that reads from the directly attached paper tape reader. But your site could have hacked up their system to use a PDP-8 to replace the bootload function; I don't see anything technically difficult about that at all. I used to operate several KA10s (and KLs) at MIT, and the KA10s all booted with paper tape from the machine console. But one of our KA10s also had a PDP-11 that was connected to the bus and had access to main memory. It was used to implement bitmapped graphics terminals, and did not boot the KA10. But it could have been made to do that. KL10s of course had a PDP-11 font-end. ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3C50682A.FE561B12@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <3C4F7869.6451C4F8@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C500360.A00B8C00@bartek.dontspamme.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:07:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1011902858 24.186.100.134 (Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:07:38 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:07:38 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9679 Christopher Stacy wrote: > > > I agree with "Ms 4.88's" that a normal stock KA10 certainly did not > have a PDP-8 front-end, but that doesn't mean yours didn't! > You boot a KA10 by pressing a console switch that reads from the > directly attached paper tape reader. But your site could have hacked > up their system to use a PDP-8 to replace the bootload function; > I don't see anything technically difficult about that at all. I keep mentioning it, but I have to again - this PDP-8/I was a piece of DCA equipment. I have no idea what the original intent of DCA was in designing this thing - it's possible they meant it to boot the KA10. aak ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Date: 25 Jan 2002 07:24:28 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 30 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87n0z3uyc3.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1011950339 26969 203.12.222.155 (25 Jan 2002 09:18:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:18:59 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p224.ch01.auto.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9717 John Sauter writes: > Arthur Krewat wrote (excerpted): > And, the 8i was used to boot the KA10, so it really was a front-end. > Huh? At Sanders we had a KA10 with a PDP-8/i terminal multiplexor > on the I/O bus, but it had nothing to do with booting the KA10. The > KA10 had a hard console with lots of lights and switches, and > booting was done from its paper tape reader. The only case I've heard of is the UWA PDP-6. With everyone muttering about 'weird...' and running away. First, toggle in the 8's boot. There was this theory that the 6 could crash with the 8 surviving. Ha! Then boot the 6 from DECtape with a non-disk monitor. This has the majik PD8: device you use to load the 8. Then do the requisite spells and stuff on the 8s console. You are now able to see if the disks are still usefull by booting a 6 disk monitor from disk, ONCE, TWICE, and possibly REFRESH :( Oh the fun. Rollie, do you still have a copy of the cheat sheet? -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3C509844.BAAE62A5@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <3C4F7869.6451C4F8@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C500360.A00B8C00@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C502D04.73678C85@bartek.dontspamme.net> <51f05u01lldtscr5v4pfgv5j58c18oe8cu@4ax.com> <3C503F7C.CF01F739@bartek.dontspamme.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:32:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1011915158 24.186.100.134 (Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:32:38 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:32:38 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!gestalt.direcpc.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9720 Mark Crispin wrote: > > On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Arthur Krewat wrote: > > From what I've heard, it was a DMA device. This may be how the 8i got the > > bootstrap into the KA10. Remember, this was a DCA device - the mentality > > was one of "do everything from the 8i". > > I once knew the people at DCA fairly well, but I have never heard of them > doing such a thing. The issue at hand is that it's pointless. The thing > that is bootstraped into the KA10 is not the operating system, it's the > disk bootstrap that will load the operating system. Since every KA10 had > a paper tape reader and bootstrap built in, it's pointless to do it any > other way. You have to remember that unlike you, many people do not do things because they make sense ... :) Also, you misunderstand me - by booting, I mean loading a bootstrap. Enough to read from the disks and start TOPS-10... which, I could probably stare at the wall for a day or so and come up with one for you :) (after checking my proc ref). The high-speed paper tape reader on the KA10 console - it was parallel or serial? And if serial how fast? > I also don't think that even a DCA device was able to write into KA10 > memory unilaterally. The KA10 set the DMA addresses, not the 8/i. But being on the memory bus would allow a device to write to core while the KA10 was halted, no? I'm sorry, the only heavy hardware I did with PDP-10's was on KS10's... And by being on the memory bus, I mean the 8i having an interface card that would allow writing to the core on the KA10, not the PDP-8 being able to directly address KA10 core. Again, who knows - maybe some enterprising predecessor of mine broke the damn reader on the KA10 console. So, he made it possible to read it from the 8i... I have no idea ... but it was done. aak ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <3C4F7869.6451C4F8@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C500360.A00B8C00@bartek.dontspamme.net> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 13 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:08:42 EST Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:08:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.154.160.102.MISMATCH!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeeds-atl2!e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9725 In alt.sys.pdp10 Mark Crispin wrote: > In other words, we are sure that your friend remembers booting a KA10 from > paper tape, but we believe that he has mis-remembered having booted it > though the paper tape reader on the PDP-8/i. More likely, he booted both > the KA10 and the PDP-8/i from their respective paper tape readers, and the > intervening nearly three decades of time has blurred the distinction in > his memory. It sounds to me like they could have been on such a shoestring budget that they hacked the KA10 and PDP-8/i so that they only needed one functional papertape reader. Zane ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3C517A26.11A9D75A@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <87n0z3uyc3.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:37:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1011973062 24.186.100.134 (Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:37:42 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:37:42 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!torn!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9719 Paul Repacholi wrote: > > John Sauter writes: > > > Arthur Krewat wrote (excerpted): > > > And, the 8i was used to boot the KA10, so it really was a front-end. > > > Huh? At Sanders we had a KA10 with a PDP-8/i terminal multiplexor > > on the I/O bus, but it had nothing to do with booting the KA10. The > > KA10 had a hard console with lots of lights and switches, and > > booting was done from its paper tape reader. > > The only case I've heard of is the UWA PDP-6. With everyone muttering about > 'weird...' and running away. > > First, toggle in the 8's boot. There was this theory that the 6 could crash > with the 8 surviving. Ha! Then boot the 6 from DECtape with a non-disk monitor. > This has the majik PD8: device you use to load the 8. Then do the requisite > spells and stuff on the 8s console. You are now able to see if the disks > are still usefull by booting a 6 disk monitor from disk, ONCE, TWICE, and > possibly REFRESH :( Oh the fun. What did the -8 run as an OS? The thing I'm talking about had DCA comm software in it (more paper tape). aak ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Date: 26 Jan 2002 20:44:10 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 16 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87pu3xs2n9.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <87n0z3uyc3.fsf@prep.synonet.com> <3C517A26.11A9D75A@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1012050018 31620 203.12.222.155 (26 Jan 2002 13:00:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:00:18 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p061.ch01.auto.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!26998!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:9820 Arthur Krewat writes: > What did the -8 run as an OS? The thing I'm talking about had DCA > comm software in it (more paper tape). The Alan Albany Magic Monitor :) He is stilll at UWA, and the code still exists. The 8 is in a friends garage. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### From: Wilber Williams Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:06:49 +1000 Organization: The University of Queensland Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3C6081A9.CB2A8991@its.uq.edu.au> References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chook.cc.uq.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1012957744 21985 130.102.128.100 (6 Feb 2002 01:09:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Feb 2002 01:09:04 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!90632!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10219 We always loaded ours from DECtape - the boot device switches were set for that. STOP, RESET, STOP, RESET, READIN - then "BTS>" pops up and hit return, I think we were trained to do! Wilber John Sauter wrote: > > Arthur Krewat wrote (excerpted): > > And, the 8i was used to boot the KA10, so it really was > a front-end. > > Huh? At Sanders we had a KA10 with a PDP-8/i terminal > multiplexor on the I/O bus, but it had nothing to do > with booting the KA10. The KA10 had a hard console > with lots of lights and switches, and booting was done > from its paper tape reader. > John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net) ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3C60ABA6.9920D84D@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <60rr4ugmk9ubv7mfnk4tuiu85li24u4j0k@4ax.com> <3C4DFC9E.1BF0C88E@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <3C6081A9.CB2A8991@its.uq.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 04:08:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1012968483 24.186.100.134 (Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:08:03 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:08:03 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!13164!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10228 Wilber Williams wrote: > > We always loaded ours from DECtape - the boot device switches were set > for that. STOP, RESET, STOP, RESET, READIN - then "BTS>" pops up and hit > return, I think we were trained to do! > However it was done, they could load the KA10 from the paper-tape on the 8i and boot from disk. The KA10 did have it's own paper-tape, and was used, but the 8i was available as a backup load point. How was the KA10 booted, from paper-tape containing the RIM loader and then loading from disk or dectape? aak ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? References: <3C4F5576.475D89BD@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> Organization: Chez Inwap X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Originator: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Lines: 44 Message-ID: <6tCn8.4749$T_.95368@iad-read.news.verio.net> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:54:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.94.177.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 1017050050 130.94.177.175 (Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:54:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:54:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10789 In article <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net>, John Sauter wrote: >Arthur Krewat wrote (excerpted): > >And, the 8i was used to boot the KA10, so it really was >a front-end. > >Huh? At Sanders we had a KA10 with a PDP-8/i terminal >multiplexor on the I/O bus, but it had nothing to do >with booting the KA10. The KA10 had a hard console >with lots of lights and switches, and booting was done >from its paper tape reader. > John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net) The 8i was not a front-end. It was merely a device that could respond to RIM (Read-In Mode) which allowed the disk bootstrap program to be loaded from PDP-8 memory instead of from paper tape. Traditional boot: Set RIM device switches to the code for PTR. Put bootstrap tape into the paper tape reader. The first segment on the tape is the RIM10B loader. The second segment can be either a full-fledged BOOTS (a rather long paper tape with code that can accept a file name from the TTY and load the specified file from disk) or a short pre-boot that simply reads raw bootstrap blocks off of a reserved area of disk unit zero. Press the Read-In-Mode switch. Non-paper boot: Set RIM device switches to the code for PDP-8 interface. The disk pre-boot has already been put into the PDP-8's core memory. Press the Read-In-Mode switch. 1) Short read-the-boot-blocks routine gets sent to the KA with the PDP-8 acting like a virtual paper-tape reader. 2) Said routine locates logical disk 0, reads in the first part of the disk bootstrap, executes it (which reads in the rest of the full disk bootstrap code). This method simply saved wear-and-tear on the KA's paper tape reader. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? References: <3C503F7C.CF01F739@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3C509844.BAAE62A5@bartek.dontspamme.net> Organization: Chez Inwap X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Originator: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Lines: 95 Message-ID: <%cDn8.4750$T_.95459@iad-read.news.verio.net> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:45:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.94.177.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 1017053115 130.94.177.175 (Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:45:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:45:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10788 In article <3C509844.BAAE62A5@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat wrote: >Also, you misunderstand me - by booting, I mean loading a bootstrap. >Enough to read from the disks and start TOPS-10... which, I could >probably stare at the wall for a day or so and come up with one for >you :) (after checking my proc ref). The boot process involved several levels of bootstrapping. I suppose you could call them the boot, the pre-boot and the pre-pre-boot. Level 0: (hardwired) 0a) CPU sends out a boot signal on the I/O bus. This activates the selected devices and causes it to send a 36-bit word. 0b) CPU acts upon a instruction, placing this first 36-bit word in in memory location 000000. 0c) CPU acts upon a instruction. The IOWD in location 000000 has both halves incremented, then the next 36-bit word from the device is stored at the location that the RH of 000000 now points to. 0d) If the LH of the IOWD is still negative, go back to 0c. 0e) Execute the 36-bit word that was read in last. It is expected to be either a JRST or a HALT. Level 1: (RIM10B) The pre-pre-boot read in by the Level 0 bootstrap is usually the RIM10B loader. See http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/rim10b.html for details. 1a) The RIM10B loader reads in one or more segments from the paper tape. Each segment is preceded by an IOWD (<-COUNT,,ADDR-1>) and followed by a simple additive checksum. 1b) If the segement was read correctly, RIM10B would go to the next segment. Otherwise it would halt so that the operator could try rewinding the tape to the start of the segment and try again. It was possible to read in the entire TOPS-10 Monitor with the Level 1 bootstrap, but a 40 Kword monitor would take 40,000 inches of paper tape. It was more reasonable to put a disk pre-boot onto the paper tape. Level 2: (disk pre-boot) Execute the appropriate CONO and DATAO instructions to reset the disk controller. Command it to read in one particular disk block from disk unit zero. Execute the code read in. Level 3: (single-block disk bootstrap) If the actual code was larger than on disk block (128 words), read the remaining blocks of the disk bootstrap code. Level 4: (BOOTS) Relocate self to high memory, then output a prompt on the console teletype. The operator could type "/D" to dump the current contents of core memory to the DUMP file, or specify the name of the file to load. BOOTS had the ability to parse a file specification (logical disk name, file name, directory PPN. BOOTS understood the HOM blocks; it could locate physical disk unit that held logical DSKB0, track down the MFD and UFD, and parse the RIB of the requested file. Level 5: (ONCE) Once SYSTEM.SAV as loaded into core, it ran several routines that were designed to be run once and only once. Some static routines in the COMMON module were assembled into same addresses as various job tables. After they had done their job of linking device data blocks together, the code in ONCE erased them, leaving zeros in the job tables. >The high-speed paper tape reader on the KA10 console - it was parallel or >serial? And if serial how fast? Parallel. One mode was to read in 8-bit tape frames (7-bit ASCII with parity, or raw 8-bits). The other mode was to read six consecutive tape frames and combine the low-order 6 bits from each into a 36-bit data word. >> I also don't think that even a DCA device was able to write into KA10 >> memory unilaterally. The KA10 set the DMA addresses, not the 8/i. > >But being on the memory bus would allow a device to write to core while >the KA10 was halted, no? I'm sorry, the only heavy hardware I did with >PDP-10's was on KS10's... In Read-In-Mode, the KA was neither halted nor running. The bit pattern for or was forced into the Instruction Register and the Program Counter inhibited. See what I refered to as Level 0 above. (I doubt that anyone else uses that nomenclature.) >And by being on the memory bus, I mean the 8i having an interface card >that would allow writing to the core on the KA10, not the PDP-8 being >able to directly address KA10 core. No need. The KA executing requires only that the device be able to send 36-bit data to the I/O bus; the CPU took care of managing the addresses. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: booting a KA10 from a PDP-8/i? References: <3C4F7247.FDE5224F@Empire.Net> <3C6081A9.CB2A8991@its.uq.edu.au> <3C60ABA6.9920D84D@bartek.dontspamme.net> Organization: Chez Inwap X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Originator: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith) Lines: 31 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:54:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.94.177.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 1017053662 130.94.177.175 (Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:54:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:54:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:10790 In article <3C60ABA6.9920D84D@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat wrote: >Wilber Williams wrote: >> >> We always loaded ours from DECtape - the boot device switches were set >> for that. STOP, RESET, STOP, RESET, READIN - then "BTS>" pops up and hit >> return, I think we were trained to do! >> > >However it was done, they could load the KA10 from the paper-tape on >the 8i and boot from disk. On the KA at the Colorado School of Mines, the KA disk pre-boot was loaded into the 8i's memory once, and it stayed in core for months on end. It did not need to be reloaded every time. >The KA10 did have it's own paper-tape, and was used, but the 8i was >available as a backup load point. We used the 8i since it did not involve the wear-and-tear you get from moving mechanical parts. The disk pre-boot could be loaded either from the 8i or from the KA10 paper tape reader. The 8i was the primary load device; the paper tape was backup. >How was the KA10 booted, from paper-tape containing the RIM loader and >then loading from disk or dectape? See my other posting in this thread on this date. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages.