From: klh@panix.com (Ken Harrenstien) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: XKL-2 (was Re: Happy DECsystem20 day!) Date: 23 Dec 2001 02:44:09 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Lines: 18 Sender: Ken Harrenstien Message-ID: References: <3C22FA76.5B3B1D99@DeleteMe.jfet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1009093450 20577 166.84.1.1 (23 Dec 2001 07:44:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Dec 2001 07:44:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!news.panix.com!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8631 In article <3C22FA76.5B3B1D99@DeleteMe.jfet.net>, Jacob Nelson wrote: >This seems to be an appropriate time to bring you a little news from >XKL. 36-bit hardware is still alive: we are building a new CPU for our >TOAD-1 systems. I'm the guy at XKL who's working on the XKL-2 (or >Tadpole, as Ralph Gorin has named it). While we've shifted our focus >away from building computers, we still use our -10's--a faster >processor (and more of them) will be very useful. Why? I really am curious. I can think of several possible reasons, but none of them appear to make business (as opposed to emotional) sense; and XKL is a business, yes? Rather than speculate out loud, I would rather just discover what it is that I'm missing here. Thanks, --Ken ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: XKL-2 (was Re: Happy DECsystem20 day!) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 01 09:25:18 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <3C22FA76.5B3B1D99@DeleteMe.jfet.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbH0okAMm4ovw97Oey1J+pIUKgj6gpaJLI3Z7FqhRlZMkRTu2tvkyVl X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Dec 2001 11:30:47 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8692 In article , klh@panix.com (Ken Harrenstien) wrote: >In article , >Jacob Nelson wrote: >>On 23 Dec 2001, Ken Harrenstien wrote: >> >>> Why? >> >>Hah! We get that question once in a while.... >> >>There are many reasons. We do PCB layout in a customized version of Suds, >>and we continue to customize it as our needs (and the state-of-the-art) >>change. The same is true of other tools. We can modify the 10 and the OS >>to match our needs, and we are not subject to the whims of an outside >>supplier. Collectively, we know quite a bit about PDP-10's running >>Tops-20--it would take a while to rebuild the same depth of knowledge on a >>different platform. > >Let me rephrase that. The question is not "Why continue to run PDP-10 >applications?" (I am aware of those reasons), but "Why re-implement >the hardware?". I can understand why it would be fun to do so, >absolutely. I just don't understand why it is apparently considered >cost-effective to do so, assuming XKL is trying to make money rather >than burn it. > >Adding up the labor and resources for all of the design, testing, and >fabrication, how much will each unit cost you? How long will it take? > >You can run down to the store, online or brick, anytime and >immediately have a cheap system that will run an emulated KL10 at 10x >KL speed (~= 5x XKL-1 speed). If you need the 30-bit physical >addressing (the only major difference I am aware of), just tweak the >emulated pager and recompile. Repeat as needed for everyone who wants >one, and upgrade the hardware from petty cash anytime the whim strikes. >Cost: $0-$2000/unit depending on what you already have or want. Time: 0. > >I'm really interested in learning what factors actually went into the >decision. There's obviously something I'm missing. I don't know their factors. One thing that could be done is having SMP available again. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3C25E4FE.EA3EECB7@bellatlantic.net> From: bad bob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: XKL-2 (was Re: Happy DECsystem20 day!) References: <3C22FA76.5B3B1D99@DeleteMe.jfet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 14:00:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.72.145 X-Complaints-To: business-support@verizon.com X-Trace: nwrddc01.gnilink.net 1009116028 138.88.72.145 (Sun, 23 Dec 2001 09:00:28 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 09:00:28 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8645 Ken Harrenstien wrote: > > In article <3C22FA76.5B3B1D99@DeleteMe.jfet.net>, > Jacob Nelson wrote: > >This seems to be an appropriate time to bring you a little news from > >XKL. 36-bit hardware is still alive: we are building a new CPU for our > >TOAD-1 systems. I'm the guy at XKL who's working on the XKL-2 (or > >Tadpole, as Ralph Gorin has named it). While we've shifted our focus > >away from building computers, we still use our -10's--a faster > >processor (and more of them) will be very useful. IS this the reason for porting GNU C compiler to Tops? Hmmm. if that is there, can I find a way to justify a purchase......hmmmm Serious question for XKL folks in this list, you are welcome to hit me off line if you want, but have any of you guys experimented with the system doing anything like an applications server for NT boxes? thanks! bob > > Why? Why not? > > I really am curious. I can think of several possible reasons, but > none of them appear to make business (as opposed to emotional) sense; > and XKL is a business, yes? Rather than speculate out loud, I would > rather just discover what it is that I'm missing here. > > Thanks, > --Ken ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: Jacob Nelson X-Sender: Subject: Re: XKL-2 (was Re: Happy DECsystem20 day!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <3C22FA76.5B3B1D99@DeleteMe.jfet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 01:51:36 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-2l6nSd1o4Tvxgh5VSnGRjE0FM+/X/o9+6zSBLRZquaefwmtzosUrWq4bnLVvWQ5Cwh0FM0T0+BT+pwU!LXJapba0r9uGft9Gsr1wtz3ey9vdeSa3oGRMsGR6ckFiC4aNDS8nBJfWTUdvj45CqbjQjIBdvAxx!Sm5CLP/AxBNhheiyf1bGsYc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 07:51:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!jake.jfet.net!jake Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8716 On 23 Dec 2001, Ken Harrenstien wrote: > Why? Hah! We get that question once in a while.... There are many reasons. We do PCB layout in a customized version of Suds, and we continue to customize it as our needs (and the state-of-the-art) change. The same is true of other tools. We can modify the 10 and the OS to match our needs, and we are not subject to the whims of an outside supplier. Collectively, we know quite a bit about PDP-10's running Tops-20--it would take a while to rebuild the same depth of knowledge on a different platform. Plus, it's really cool! But I may be biased. :-) jake ###### From: klh@panix.com (Ken Harrenstien) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: XKL-2 (was Re: Happy DECsystem20 day!) Date: 24 Dec 2001 06:12:30 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Lines: 42 Sender: Ken Harrenstien Message-ID: References: <3C22FA76.5B3B1D99@DeleteMe.jfet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1009192351 18364 166.84.1.1 (24 Dec 2001 11:12:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Dec 2001 11:12:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!news.panix.com!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8698 In article , Jacob Nelson wrote: >On 23 Dec 2001, Ken Harrenstien wrote: > >> Why? > >Hah! We get that question once in a while.... > >There are many reasons. We do PCB layout in a customized version of Suds, >and we continue to customize it as our needs (and the state-of-the-art) >change. The same is true of other tools. We can modify the 10 and the OS >to match our needs, and we are not subject to the whims of an outside >supplier. Collectively, we know quite a bit about PDP-10's running >Tops-20--it would take a while to rebuild the same depth of knowledge on a >different platform. Let me rephrase that. The question is not "Why continue to run PDP-10 applications?" (I am aware of those reasons), but "Why re-implement the hardware?". I can understand why it would be fun to do so, absolutely. I just don't understand why it is apparently considered cost-effective to do so, assuming XKL is trying to make money rather than burn it. Adding up the labor and resources for all of the design, testing, and fabrication, how much will each unit cost you? How long will it take? You can run down to the store, online or brick, anytime and immediately have a cheap system that will run an emulated KL10 at 10x KL speed (~= 5x XKL-1 speed). If you need the 30-bit physical addressing (the only major difference I am aware of), just tweak the emulated pager and recompile. Repeat as needed for everyone who wants one, and upgrade the hardware from petty cash anytime the whim strikes. Cost: $0-$2000/unit depending on what you already have or want. Time: 0. I'm really interested in learning what factors actually went into the decision. There's obviously something I'm missing. >Plus, it's really cool! But I may be biased. :-) Of course, *any* PDP-10 implementation is cool... --Ken ###### From: Ben Franchuk Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: XKL-2 (was Re: Happy DECsystem20 day!) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:40:27 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3C275A7B.C81CDA3@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3C22FA76.5B3B1D99@DeleteMe.jfet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8719 Ken Harrenstien wrote: > You can run down to the store, online or brick, anytime and > immediately have a cheap system that will run an emulated KL10 at 10x > KL speed (~= 5x XKL-1 speed). If you need the 30-bit physical > addressing (the only major difference I am aware of), just tweak the > emulated pager and recompile. Repeat as needed for everyone who wants > one, and upgrade the hardware from petty cash anytime the whim strikes. > Cost: $0-$2000/unit depending on what you already have or want. Time: 0. > --Ken Well for one thing you have total control over a working system timing wise. With a emulator and a "Blue screen of Death" shows up you may never know what caused it. You may need features a PC does not have too. Since nobody has ISA slots nowadays adding special hardware is more costly. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: Jacob Nelson X-Sender: Subject: Re: XKL-2 (was Re: Happy DECsystem20 day!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <3C22FA76.5B3B1D99@DeleteMe.jfet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 18:44:21 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-aCc8UHGZXGGD+BvNpv8NInJvlkfN686+Ea0Sw/zJavU4y6VuhnH/XCVoJksVqW/iNGWbCItlFr+wQFk!rAdAdBwoc0fTbrPeCZn2AUF0NDpUNf6ptvVCCIMa+sJaUsiaSTRpXL+qbMeq9vxsc5koxvPl0zgg!PhBQSqYumZgnCK+hl1/WXg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:44:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!216.166.61.6!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!jake.jfet.net!jake Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8799 On 24 Dec 2001, Ken Harrenstien wrote: > You can run down to the store, online or brick, anytime and > immediately have a cheap system that will run an emulated KL10 at 10x > KL speed (~= 5x XKL-1 speed). If you need the 30-bit physical > addressing (the only major difference I am aware of), just tweak the > emulated pager and recompile. Repeat as needed for everyone who wants > one, and upgrade the hardware from petty cash anytime the whim strikes. > Cost: $0-$2000/unit depending on what you already have or want. Time: 0. This is very true, and we have thought about it. This would work well for development systems (especially Suds). I will also mention that after the XKL-2 is done, I'll be working on a small single-board TOAD with integrated memory, network, and disk. One could do something similar with an embedded-style Linux system and an emulator, I'm sure, but it does become less of a commodity item. XKL is certainly not interested in burning money--questions of time and cost have certainly been considered. The CPU isn't too heavy on parts and resources, and as the only engineer working on it (and a junior one too), I'm not so expensive. But I can't speak for XKL in these matters.... Hmm, I think I didn't actually answer any of your questions. Sorry. jake ###### Message-ID: <3C2C6392.E211C938@bellatlantic.net> From: bad bob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: XKL-2 (was Re: Happy DECsystem20 day!) References: <3C22FA76.5B3B1D99@DeleteMe.jfet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:14:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.72.145 X-Complaints-To: business-support@verizon.com X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1009541654 138.88.72.145 (Fri, 28 Dec 2001 07:14:14 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 07:14:14 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8793 Jacob Nelson wrote: > > On 24 Dec 2001, Ken Harrenstien wrote: > > > You can run down to the store, online or brick, anytime and > > immediately have a cheap system that will run an emulated KL10 at 10x > > KL speed (~= 5x XKL-1 speed). If you need the 30-bit physical > > addressing (the only major difference I am aware of), just tweak the > > emulated pager and recompile. Repeat as needed for everyone who wants > > one, and upgrade the hardware from petty cash anytime the whim strikes. > > Cost: $0-$2000/unit depending on what you already have or want. Time: 0. > > This is very true, and we have thought about it. This would work well for > development systems (especially Suds). I will also mention that after the > XKL-2 is done, I'll be working on a small single-board TOAD with > integrated memory, network, and disk. One could do something similar with > an embedded-style Linux system and an emulator, I'm sure, but it does > become less of a commodity item. > > XKL is certainly not interested in burning money--questions of time and > cost have certainly been considered. The CPU isn't too heavy on parts and > resources, and as the only engineer working on it (and a junior one too), > I'm not so expensive. But I can't speak for XKL in these matters.... > > Hmm, I think I didn't actually answer any of your questions. Sorry. > > jake You answered some of mine! Yes, XKL is in BUSINESS. There must be a perceived need for such a beast, single board, higher perf than the Toad, so....hmmm maybe I will be able to buy some for some project or other. Target price range? Will samba be ported to tops? and supported by XKL? Hmmm!! That was slick of Ralph to pick Tadpole....I wonder if McClure is lurking or smirking or if Dave has been tweaking Len and Ralph.. bob ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: XKL-2 (was Re: Happy DECsystem20 day!) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3C22FA76.5B3B1D99@DeleteMe.jfet.net> <3C2C6392.E211C938@bellatlantic.net> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 6 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:47:11 EST Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 22:47:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!fs01-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news.webusenet.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8807 bad bob wrote: > Target price range? Now that's what I want to know! Zane