From: David Razler Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Reply-To: davidrazlerREMOVE@home.com Message-ID: References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 70 Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 04:14:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.8.78.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.pa.home.com 1007784852 65.8.78.154 (Fri, 07 Dec 2001 20:14:12 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 20:14:12 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.pa.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8033 On 10 Nov 2001 19:24:45 +0100, Neil Franklin wrote: |> This is a hard question. What are you going to do for the card reader |> or paper tape reader or punch? Half-inch tape or DECtape? Real |> or emulated? | |As I have neither original drives (OK, TU-56 should be gettable due to |the many made for PDP-8) nor the mechanical abilities to make them, I |will be either doing entirely without (just console, tty, disk, net |IO) or would have to simulate them using RS232 lines or floppy drives. | | |> Now, one reason for the FPGA is to go faster than the |> software simulated processor, and in most cases host I/O will be fast |> enough for an FPGA processor. | Jumping back after a combination of ongoing illness and computers in cascade failure mode with my$.02.: When it comes to a "new" machine - we don't really need things like DECTapes or paper tape capacity et. al. if the original data can be ported to a format allowing a 1.2mb flop to become several DECTape controllers' worth of storage or a near infinite length of paper tape. I *like* the concept of a standard AT or Baby-AT motherboard for the new machinbe because everyone has the box for it and the power supplies - and most of the other basic parts.. I *like* the concept of the return of the speed control - run it at roughly original speed (too many factors go into determining the original execution speed per instruction to ever get this 100% right) or Bat Outa Hell speed. I *like* the idea of using standardized modern bus architecture - allowing the user to choose a disk drive/controller, etc. to fit individual needs. If I want to duplicate my first PDP-10, I'd have to hang 72 serial ports off the back. Most users would find this kind of thing excessive, but it would be nice to pop in a standard LAN card and write the code to put the thing on either a local network or the 'net at large. Incidentally on the SCSII/IDE thing, folks on a limited budget will go with IDE, which is still about $150-$500/drive cheaper than even 100-MHz IDE/ATA The important part of the design is whether it can pass a modified Turing test: If I sit down at a terminal of some kind and interact with the machine, aside from speed, will I know whether I am dealing with a real PDP-n or a software emulator or a hardware clone. It doesn't have to spin DECTapes, it has to have a 128K block-addressible removable storage device or a simalcrum of one. It doesn't have to have a paper-tape reader-punch if existing paper tape content is available in another form (how many CDs would it take to hold every bit of software ever written for the PDP-10 family?) **** I would absolutely *love* a real front panel, even though I know the switches I throw are not acting directly on the system in most cases (though with an FPGA design, perhaps allowances could be made for a special register set to be read and interpreted as a front panel.) Given the length of the original KA-10 front panel, I wouldn't mind a smaller plug-in unit. -dmr ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: Sat, 08 Dec 01 10:12:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 45 Message-ID: <9ut09i$89r$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C113C7B.95D203D6@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb8NldGrEIP6maxAC23rWHOYlqAbFys3Sdx9fsVSXZuYHPbcGevYGKC X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Dec 2001 12:15:46 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-242 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8028 In article <3C113C7B.95D203D6@jetnet.ab.ca>, Ben Franchuk wrote: >David Razler wrote: It's very nice to read a post from you :-). >> I *like* the concept of the return of the speed control - run it at >> roughly original speed (too many factors go into determining the >> original execution speed per instruction to ever get this 100% right) >> or Bat Outa Hell speed. > >What no Crank for fast single stepping? JMF always had an invisible one that he would turn when he ran VMS. It was on the side of the terminal. >> I would absolutely *love* a real front panel, even though I know the >> switches I throw are not acting directly on the system in most cases >> (though with an FPGA design, perhaps allowances could be made for a >> special register set to be read and interpreted as a front panel.) > >What is with all the 'panel' style programs? >Where possible I like the idea 'hardware' front panels. A octal >front panel ( With a nice keyboard and a big led display ) >could be a lot smaller. A switch register input still needs >a bit of thought however. A 8 position 3 pole rotary switch >comes to mind for each octal digit. I keep running into people who don't have any idea how bits look. I don't think I'd have ever figured it out by myself if there wasn't any lights to look at. I still can get awed by looking at binary lights and be able to "see" octal. People who haven't been exposed to machine language might understand how a computer works if they could see the lights flash. BTW, I'm not trying to one-plus your project here; you seem to have more than enough help in that area :-). I'm just making a comment about what I see in vaious newsgroups about how kids think when they don't have enough data. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: Sat, 08 Dec 01 11:59:37 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <9ut6ho$lsm$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C113C7B.95D203D6@jetnet.ab.ca> <9ut09i$89r$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C1213AF.812EDB5B@bellatlantic.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYE5phFJ7J2nX69YDvA2Kx51IgQlXWt4HSr2tdnuXaaKs6t64Z1Ubjs X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Dec 2001 14:02:32 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-242 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8029 In article <3C1213AF.812EDB5B@bellatlantic.net>, bad bob wrote: > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3C113C7B.95D203D6@jetnet.ab.ca>, >> Ben Franchuk wrote: >> >David Razler wrote: >> >> It's very nice to read a post from you :-). >> >> >> I *like* the concept of the return of the speed control - run it at >> >> roughly original speed (too many factors go into determining the >> >> original execution speed per instruction to ever get this 100% right) >> >> or Bat Outa Hell speed. >> > >> >What no Crank for fast single stepping? >> >> JMF always had an invisible one that he would turn when he ran VMS. >> It was on the side of the terminal. >Ahh! That was the problem! Was he using a VT100 or 52? Nope. In the VT100/52 days he was working on TOPS-10; we didn't need cranks ;-). > ... We used to >get all this pressure to make sure we did not design systems that >were too fast to crank!! We did not know the crank was on the >terminal (double entendre intentional!) Harmumph! ;-) He always had to crank that Alpha VMS system. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Ben Franchuk Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 15:02:35 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3C113C7B.95D203D6@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 40 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8025 David Razler wrote: > I *like* the concept of the return of the speed control - run it at > roughly original speed (too many factors go into determining the > original execution speed per instruction to ever get this 100% right) > or Bat Outa Hell speed. What no Crank for fast single stepping? > It doesn't have to have a paper-tape reader-punch if existing paper > tape content is available in another form (how many CDs would it take > to hold every bit of software ever written for the PDP-10 family?) With a 12/24 bit FPGA cpu I am designing I have the cpu read in a bootstrap program. This is a simple format that uses 7 bit ASCII characters and a ready flag. At the moment it is switch selectable from a internal serial uart on the FPGA to a external device. When I get the PCB made I plan to use a 8K * 8 EEPROM. I can jumper select what 4kb block I use to boot from. Right now I download my programs to my FPGA from a old 486 running a simple terminal program. A similar idea could be used to load common loaders or programs. > > I would absolutely *love* a real front panel, even though I know the > switches I throw are not acting directly on the system in most cases > (though with an FPGA design, perhaps allowances could be made for a > special register set to be read and interpreted as a front panel.) What is with all the 'panel' style programs? Where possible I like the idea 'hardware' front panels. A octal front panel ( With a nice keyboard and a big led display ) could be a lot smaller. A switch register input still needs a bit of thought however. A 8 position 3 pole rotary switch comes to mind for each octal digit. > Given the length of the original KA-10 front panel, I wouldn't mind a > smaller plug-in unit. OK! 3" high -- 72" long :) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C113C7B.95D203D6@jetnet.ab.ca> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 11 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 02:44:25 EST Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 07:44:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!sjcppf01!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!sjcpnn01.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8022 In alt.sys.pdp10 Ben Franchuk wrote: > could be a lot smaller. A switch register input still needs > a bit of thought however. A 8 position 3 pole rotary switch > comes to mind for each octal digit. Hmmm, that reminds me of something. IIRC, the Honeywell DPS-8 had this on their CPU's. Of course you had to open the front door to access thier idea of a 'front-panel', and IIRC, it was mainly for defining the layout of the system when it was booted. Zane ###### Message-ID: <3C1213AF.812EDB5B@bellatlantic.net> From: bad bob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C113C7B.95D203D6@jetnet.ab.ca> <9ut09i$89r$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 61 Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 13:15:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.75.218 X-Complaints-To: business-support@verizon.com X-Trace: nwrddc01.gnilink.net 1007817322 138.88.75.218 (Sat, 08 Dec 2001 08:15:22 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 08:15:22 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8031 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3C113C7B.95D203D6@jetnet.ab.ca>, > Ben Franchuk wrote: > >David Razler wrote: > > It's very nice to read a post from you :-). > > >> I *like* the concept of the return of the speed control - run it at > >> roughly original speed (too many factors go into determining the > >> original execution speed per instruction to ever get this 100% right) > >> or Bat Outa Hell speed. > > > >What no Crank for fast single stepping? > > JMF always had an invisible one that he would turn when he ran VMS. > It was on the side of the terminal. > Ahh! That was the problem! Was he using a VT100 or 52? We used to get all this pressure to make sure we did not design systems that were too fast to crank!! We did not know the crank was on the terminal (double entendre intentional!) > > >> I would absolutely *love* a real front panel, even though I know the > >> switches I throw are not acting directly on the system in most cases > >> (though with an FPGA design, perhaps allowances could be made for a > >> special register set to be read and interpreted as a front panel.) > > > >What is with all the 'panel' style programs? > >Where possible I like the idea 'hardware' front panels. A octal > >front panel ( With a nice keyboard and a big led display ) > >could be a lot smaller. A switch register input still needs > >a bit of thought however. A 8 position 3 pole rotary switch > >comes to mind for each octal digit. > > > I keep running into people who don't have any idea how bits > look. I don't think I'd have ever figured it out by myself > if there wasn't any lights to look at. I still can get awed > by looking at binary lights and be able to "see" octal. People > who haven't been exposed to machine language might understand > how a computer works if they could see the lights flash. Interesting - this just happened to me yesterday, working with a hex/binary dump. I was explaining how to look at the data shifting right or left to look at it! I thought that was mildly interesting, because of the comments as I started explaining what I was doing on the board. But you running into it too... > > BTW, I'm not trying to one-plus your project here; you seem to > have more than enough help in that area :-). I'm just making > a comment about what I see in vaious newsgroups about how kids > think when they don't have enough data. > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: 08 Dec 2001 18:45:26 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 65 Message-ID: <6u4rn161xl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1007833529 885 10.0.3.2 (8 Dec 2001 17:45:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Dec 2001 17:45:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8034 David Razler writes: > On 10 Nov 2001 19:24:45 +0100, Neil Franklin > wrote: > > |As I have neither original drives (OK, TU-56 should be gettable due to > |the many made for PDP-8) nor the mechanical abilities to make them, I > |will be either doing entirely without (just console, tty, disk, net > |IO) or would have to simulate them using RS232 lines or floppy drives. > | > Jumping back after a combination of ongoing illness and computers in > cascade failure mode with my$.02.: Now where do I know that computer faillure thing from? Last weekend my backup server went bellyup. Of course the drive used for the backups. Spent the entire weekend doing new backups. Grrr. > When it comes to a "new" machine - we don't really need things like > DECTapes or paper tape capacity et. al. if the original data can be > ported to a format allowing a 1.2mb flop to become several DECTape > controllers' worth of storage or a near infinite length of paper tape. That is the level I want, equivalent functionality. > I *like* the concept of a standard AT or Baby-AT motherboard for the > new machinbe because everyone has the box for it and the power > supplies - and most of the other basic parts.. > > Incidentally on the SCSII/IDE thing, folks on a limited budget will > go with IDE, which is still about $150-$500/drive cheaper than even > 100-MHz IDE/ATA Will most likely be initially SCSI. I have just recieved an unused StorageWorks unit with 2*4.2G and 1*2.1G in it. Together with my VT100 and an also newly got VT220 and Epson LX-1000 matrix printer the initial peripheral hardware is just about complete. > It doesn't have to spin DECTapes, it has to have a 128K > block-addressible removable storage device or a simalcrum of one. Which normal floppies should just fit. Perhaps with an 128Kword vs use-full-size switch. > (though with an FPGA design, perhaps allowances could be made for a > special register set to be read and interpreted as a front panel.) Is intended as one of the expansions. > Given the length of the original KA-10 front panel, I wouldn't mind a > smaller plug-in unit. Plug-in, possibly missusing the printer port plug, with panel wiring behind it, instead of printer wiring. Load whichever wiring set your site wants, by conditional compilation. Looks like the simplest way. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: Ben Franchuk Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 11:09:51 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3C12576F.650012FF@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6u4rn161xl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8035 Neil Franklin wrote: > > It doesn't have to spin DECTapes, it has to have a 128K > > block-addressible removable storage device or a simalcrum of one. > > Which normal floppies should just fit. Perhaps with an 128Kword vs > use-full-size switch. What is the block size for DECTtapes? Most (all?) floppy controllers only handle 2^n sized blocks. You may have to build your own floppy controller in a FPGA. > > Plug-in, possibly missusing the printer port plug, with panel wiring > behind it, instead of printer wiring. Load whichever wiring set your > site wants, by conditional compilation. Looks like the simplest way. For development work you might consider using flash memory and uP for configuring the system. Since you have a uP for doing the bootstraps you could offload some front panel logic there. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: 09 Dec 2001 00:49:21 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 115 Message-ID: <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6u4rn161xl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C12576F.650012FF@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1007855363 1291 10.0.3.2 (8 Dec 2001 23:49:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Dec 2001 23:49:23 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8044 Ben Franchuk writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > It doesn't have to spin DECTapes, it has to have a 128K > > > block-addressible removable storage device or a simalcrum of one. > > > > Which normal floppies should just fit. Perhaps with an 128Kword vs > > use-full-size switch. > > What is the block size for DECTtapes? Good question. Simh 2.6 PDP8 DECtape source (pdp8_dt.c) gives this info: 12b 129 words per block 16b/18b/36b 384 words per block DECtape motion is measured in 3b lines. Time between lines is 33.33us. Tape density is nominally 300 lines per inch. The format of a DECtape is A block consists of five 18b header words, a tape-specific number of data words, and five 18b trailer words. All systems except the PDP-8 use a standard block length of 256 words; the PDP-8 uses a standard block length of 86 words (x 18b = 129 words x 12b). At present I am assuming 128kword to be 1024 blocks of 265 18bit words (= 128 36bit words). Anyone of the old timers wants to give the exact details of how the 10 formatted/used DECtape? For a standard PC floppy we have: size cylinders tracks/c seconds/t bits/s bits/t formatted 360k 40 2 1/5 250k DD 50k 9*512*8bit = 36864bit 1200k 80 2 1/6 500k HD 83.3k 15*512*8bit = 61440bit 1440k 80 2 1/5 500k HD 100k 18*512*8bit = 73728bit So for an 10 clone with modern floppy drive/media they should allow: size cylinders tracks/c seconds/t bits/s bits/t formatted 1200k 80 2 1/6 500k HD 83.3k 14*128*36bit = 64512bit 1440k 80 2 1/5 500k HD 100k 16*128*36bit = 73728bit So that would allow 80*2*14=2240 and 80*2*16=2560 blocks. So about 2.25 or 2.5 DECtapes per floppy. As comparison RK05 (=smallest) disk on PDP8 with RK8E controller: size cylinders tracks/c seconds/t bits/s bits/t formatted 2521k 203 2 ? ? ? 16*256*12bit = 50880bit So an RK05 is a about 2 floppies. Also comparison RP06 (= fairly large) on KS-10 with RH-11: size cylinders tracks/c seconds/t bits/s bits/t formatted 174206k 815 19 ? ? ? 20*128*36bit = 92160bit So an RP06 is about 145 1200k or 120 1440k floppies. > Most (all?) floppy controllers > only handle 2^n sized blocks. Todays PC floppy controller chips are usually hardwired to 128/256/512*8bit (depending on SD/DD/HD 125k/250k/500k setting). > You may have to build your own floppy > controller in a FPGA. That I intend to do anyway. I have always been intrigued about how disk controllers work (see above calculations :-)). They are the most intriguing periphereal. And modern IDE/SCSI have the actual controller in the drive and only an bus externally visible. MFM/RLL drives are too seldom today to demand that all users try to find them (bad, would make life simpler for me). So floppies have got to go in, simply so I can make an real controller. Not to mention that an in-FPGA controller, with just data separator analog stuff externally, will allow using any word width on disk, which an modern hardware controller chip will not. So much for using an PC as IO subsystem :-). > > Plug-in, possibly missusing the printer port plug, with panel wiring > > behind it, instead of printer wiring. Load whichever wiring set your > > site wants, by conditional compilation. Looks like the simplest way. > > For development work you might consider using flash memory and > uP for configuring the system. For development direct load of FPGA control SRAM from my development system (AMD K6/2-350 based PC) will be used. Is even more flexible than flash, but requires the PC to be running (is the case while developing). > Since you have a uP for doing the > bootstraps you could offload some front panel logic there. For testing I can get the full view of all FFs in the FPGA (stop clock and read out bits). But for users using the 10 without an PC development system, I will want to offer an external front pannel at some time. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: Ben Franchuk Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 13:45:26 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6u4rn161xl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C12576F.650012FF@jetnet.ab.ca> <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8046 Neil Franklin wrote: > So that would allow 80*2*14=2240 and 80*2*16=2560 blocks. So about > 2.25 or 2.5 DECtapes per floppy. Why not just use less dense bit format and have a single floppy == 1 dec tape. This has the advantage of not having to worry about what tape is on what floppy. With different format could you pack 3 data bits into 4 disk bits. This would give you similar dec tape style logic. > That I intend to do anyway. I have always been intrigued about how > disk controllers work (see above calculations :-)). They are the most > intriguing periphereal. I always thought a SEX-DROID was the most intriguing peripheral :) > So floppies have got to go in, simply so I can make an real controller. > Not to mention that an in-FPGA controller, with just data separator > analog stuff externally, will allow using any word width on disk, > which an modern hardware controller chip will not. With a fast FPGA you can have the data separator digital. Group Code Recording I think has better data separation at the cost of 20% less data on the floppy. >So much for using an PC as IO subsystem :-). I use mine as a DUMB TERMINAL... too bad you need a 386 not to lose serial @ 9600 baud. > For development direct load of FPGA control SRAM from my development > system (AMD K6/2-350 based PC) will be used. Is even more flexible than > flash, but requires the PC to be running (is the case while developing). That is what I am doing now with my FPGA board. The only problem I can't program a prom here, thus it is a pain getting done. > For testing I can get the full view of all FFs in the FPGA (stop clock > and read out bits). But for users using the 10 without an PC development > system, I will want to offer an external front pannel at some time. I would have done something like that but did not have the FPGA space. At 93% filled it is very hard to route. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html PS. what about a 18 bit front panel/lights? 36 bits in octal - left-right half in binary? ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C113C7B.95D203D6@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 48 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 01:23:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.105.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 1007860985 24.128.105.166 (Sat, 08 Dec 2001 20:23:05 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 20:23:05 EST Organization: ATT Broadband Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws06.ne.mediaone.net!24.91.0.34!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8065 Ben Franchuk writes: >David Razler wrote: >> I would absolutely *love* a real front panel, even though I know the >> switches I throw are not acting directly on the system in most cases >> (though with an FPGA design, perhaps allowances could be made for a >> special register set to be read and interpreted as a front panel.) >What is with all the 'panel' style programs? >Where possible I like the idea 'hardware' front panels. A octal >front panel ( With a nice keyboard and a big led display ) >could be a lot smaller. A switch register input still needs >a bit of thought however. A 8 position 3 pole rotary switch >comes to mind for each octal digit. The first computer I programed used that (well, decimal since it was a decimal machine). I don't think I've ever seen a rotary or thumbwheel switch that was fast and efficient. Think Dymo labelmaker. Thoughts: Triple position spring loaded switches? Lift up to shift in a 1 bit, press down for a 0. Spring return to center. Using one for each octit would take well, a fair number. Very different from any real -10. Well, not really, I'd do essentially the same, but skipping switches set correctly and moving my hand every bit. Note an octal display would use a 7 segment display, a binary display only needs 3 lights. Octal would take more electronics, binary might take more parts. 8 digit key pad, each octit shifts across address/data register? I guess Ben just said that, huh? Problem is, that's one of the things we're trying to get away from. ODT, RSX20, etc just never had the same feel as real switches. On of my favorite things about the KA10 console switches was the ease I could add in binary on them. Set the address of a data structure, add in the offset, press examine. Of the ideas above, I guess thumbwheels would work best with that, albeit poorly. Of the above ideas, I guess I like the triple position switches. May not be much saving over binary switches though. -- "When we allow fundamental freedoms to be sacrificed in the name of real or perceived emergency, we invariably regret it. -- Thurgood Marshall Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3C13976F.1B95146D@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6u4rn161xl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C12576F.650012FF@jetnet.ab.ca> <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 16:58:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1007917093 24.186.100.134 (Sun, 09 Dec 2001 11:58:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 11:58:13 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8061 Ben Franchuk wrote: > > >So much for using an PC as IO subsystem :-). > I use mine as a DUMB TERMINAL... too bad you need a 386 > not to lose serial @ 9600 baud. Running what, Windows? :) I use a '286 w/Kermit and never lose characters at 9600 - 38400 maybe yes, but 9600 is perfect. Of course, a 16550 UART is helpful and usually weren't installed in 286's ... :) aak ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: 09 Dec 2001 21:47:32 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 93 Message-ID: <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6u4rn161xl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C12576F.650012FF@jetnet.ab.ca> <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1007930857 767 10.0.3.2 (9 Dec 2001 20:47:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Dec 2001 20:47:37 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8068 Ben Franchuk writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > So that would allow 80*2*14=2240 and 80*2*16=2560 blocks. So about > > 2.25 or 2.5 DECtapes per floppy. > > Why not just use less dense bit format and have a single floppy == 1 > dec tape. You know what: that idea came to me after going to bed. 64cylinders*2tracks*8sectors=1024blocks of 128*36bit. Would nicely fit both 5.25" and 3.5" drive mechanisms. > This has the advantage of not having to worry about what tape is on what > floppy. I was not thinking of 2 tapes per disk, rather of dual-"length" tapes. But I suppose wasting 50% of an floppy is not a catastrophy, as they are cheap. And we do get real size, full compatible in use, no software changes needed. > With different format could you pack 3 data bits into 4 disk bits. This > would give you similar dec tape style logic. AFAIK the 4th and 5th bit on DECTape were word and sector marking. On FD we already have clocking between the bits (hmmm, waste the space and do the simpler FM instead of MFM, halfs capacity) and sector headers between sectors. Or use the space and record every bit twice, like on DECtape, say by repeating every word twice. > > So floppies have got to go in, simply so I can make an real controller. > > Not to mention that an in-FPGA controller, with just data separator > > analog stuff externally, will allow using any word width on disk, > > which an modern hardware controller chip will not. > > With a fast FPGA you can have the data separator digital. I have heard of digital separators. Need 16 times bitrate, so 8MHz. No trouble. > Group Code Recording I think has better data separation > at the cost of 20% less data on the floppy. Now that is a good idea. A _very_ good idea. Will be taken up. Use the old GCR instead of MFM. Is 4/5 of MFM, 8/5 of FM, and robuster and even simpler than FM. Does my growing up on a C64 with an 1541 disk drive show through? > >So much for using an PC as IO subsystem :-). > I use mine as a DUMB TERMINAL... too bad you need a 386 > not to lose serial @ 9600 baud. What OS? I did 38400,8n1 reliably on an 386-16 with non-FIFO 16450 chip and an 14400 V.42bis modem behind it. Linux 1.0.8 that was with. Doing SLIP over that was once my Internet connection. > > For development direct load of FPGA control SRAM from my development > > system (AMD K6/2-350 based PC) will be used. Is even more flexible than > > flash, but requires the PC to be running (is the case while developing). > > That is what I am doing now with my FPGA board. The only problem > I can't program a prom here, thus it is a pain getting done. Making PROMs could turn out to be a problem here also. I will have to see what I need for that. > > For testing I can get the full view of all FFs in the FPGA (stop clock > > and read out bits). But for users using the 10 without an PC development > > system, I will want to offer an external front pannel at some time. > I would have done something like that but did not have the FPGA space. > At 93% filled it is very hard to route. FPGA 93% full, gulp! Up to 80% is regarded as sane. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: Ben Franchuk Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 12:38:38 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3C13BDBE.3CC47ECC@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6u4rn161xl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C12576F.650012FF@jetnet.ab.ca> <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8078 Neil Franklin wrote: > Use the old GCR instead of MFM. Is 4/5 of MFM, 8/5 of FM, and robuster > and even simpler than FM. Does my growing up on a C64 with an 1541 > disk drive show through? No you could likely steal most of the logic from C64. :) As a side note I would have put more I/O on board in my FPGA but I ran out of room. For a while I had a memory refresh counter too, but that had to go. > What OS? I did 38400,8n1 reliably on an 386-16 with non-FIFO 16450 > chip and an 14400 V.42bis modem behind it. Linux 1.0.8 that was with. > Doing SLIP over that was once my Internet connection. I got a old 486 doing my I/O processing. Mind you the machine is running a lot slower as I removed the cache memory for my FPGA computer. The current prototype only has two memory chips ( 32k x 12) and Maxim RS-232 buffer and the FPGA of course. The terminal program on the PC is handy as I can download programs thru the hardware bootstrap loader. >> FPGA 93% full, gulp! Up to 80% is regarded as sane. It was 96% with memory refresh. Mind you altera FPGA's route better but run slower. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 References: <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Sender: robert@bonomi.invalid From: robert@bonomi.invalid Originator: robert@bonomi.invalid Organization: Robert Bonomi Consulting Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998) Originator: bonomi@news2.bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) Lines: 74 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:55:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.103.248.65 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1008204955 168.103.248.65 (Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:55:55 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:55:55 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8144 [ reply note: I'm not an invalid, I'm a dot-com ] In article <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >Ben Franchuk writes: > [[ ..munch.. ]] >> >So much for using an PC as IO subsystem :-). >> I use mine as a DUMB TERMINAL... too bad you need a 386 >> not to lose serial @ 9600 baud. > >What OS? I did 38400,8n1 reliably on an 386-16 with non-FIFO 16450 >chip and an 14400 V.42bis modem behind it. Linux 1.0.8 that was with. >Doing SLIP over that was once my Internet connection. I ran 38400 on a 10mHz 286 using original 8250s. 'data translation' operation, reading a sustained NO FLOW CONTROL(!!) stream from COM1, and shoving the translated data out COM2 (to an async front end for an IBM mainframe). Oh the joys of "pseudo-simulating" an emulated block-mode terminal. The redeeming feature that made it work on that platform was: *no* disk I/O after program load. And I was running FULL interrupt-driven I/O on the comm ports. carefully hand-optimized assembler for the interrupt code. Had a test program that was the world's dumbest, and probably *smallest*, terminal program. logic was: if keyboard character ready read keyboard buffer write serial port if serial port input ready read serial port write display goto top program got named "ADM2", for reasons that should be obvious. a major revision added a test for a 'magic character', so the program could exit cleanly, and (hard-coded) initialization code that configured the serial port chip. >> > For development direct load of FPGA control SRAM from my development >> > system (AMD K6/2-350 based PC) will be used. Is even more flexible than >> > flash, but requires the PC to be running (is the case while developing). >> >> That is what I am doing now with my FPGA board. The only problem >> I can't program a prom here, thus it is a pain getting done. > >Making PROMs could turn out to be a problem here also. I will have to >see what I need for that. I've got capability for programming a number of common types of EPROMS, and EEPROMS. What I don't have is a (UV) eraser. If you settle on a particular chip or related family, actually -building- a PC-based programmer isn't that difficult. a couple of the "programmable peripheral interface" chips used in the early PCs, a few switching transistors, a handful of other components, and some DC power sources at the right voltages; and "....awaaay we go!" >> > For testing I can get the full view of all FFs in the FPGA (stop clock >> > and read out bits). But for users using the 10 without an PC development >> > system, I will want to offer an external front pannel at some time. >> I would have done something like that but did not have the FPGA space. >> At 93% filled it is very hard to route. > >FPGA 93% full, gulp! Up to 80% is regarded as sane. Until he gets to "99 and 44/100ths", it's _no_soap_. ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 References: <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:48:26 -0500 Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3c18cdcd_3@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1008258509 204.250.0.238 (13 Dec 2001 10:48:29 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8162 wrote in message news:v0TR7.1355$wA.163834@news.uswest.net... > [ reply note: I'm not an invalid, I'm a dot-com ] > > In article <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: > >Ben Franchuk writes: > > > [[ ..munch.. ]] > > >> >So much for using an PC as IO subsystem :-). > >> I use mine as a DUMB TERMINAL... too bad you need a 386 > >> not to lose serial @ 9600 baud. > > > >What OS? I did 38400,8n1 reliably on an 386-16 with non-FIFO 16450 > >chip and an 14400 V.42bis modem behind it. Linux 1.0.8 that was with. > >Doing SLIP over that was once my Internet connection. > > I ran 38400 on a 10mHz 286 using original 8250s. 'data translation' operation, > reading a sustained NO FLOW CONTROL(!!) stream from COM1, and shoving the > translated data out COM2 (to an async front end for an IBM mainframe). Oh > the joys of "pseudo-simulating" an emulated block-mode terminal. Back around '87, I found a serial port driver called MID that could sustain 115.2Kbps using 8250B's, but not the older 8250, 8250A, or 8250N. It was sold by its author, and QuaTech, a company specializing in solid-state relay boards and digital & analog I/O devices. Regards, -dq ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: Fri, 14 Dec 01 08:21:35 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9vck2o$47t$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1958A5.E94EB6A1@Empire.Net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbnyTWpCL8VRz3je/7YPnsoyl0/YWUyVOJ6dYXI2feQ87KWIxyigyPd X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 2001 10:25:28 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-55 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8185 In article <3C1958A5.E94EB6A1@Empire.Net>, John Sauter wrote: >Jim Thomas wrote: > >("Obfac" SOAP was the assembler on the IBM 650) > >John Sauter responded: > >Grandpa, tell us about the IBM 650! Grandpa? I just can't think of Nothead in that way. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Ben Franchuk Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:02:13 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3C181A35.BC5CF691@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8180 Jim Thomas wrote: > > >>>>> "robert" == robert writes: > > >> FPGA 93% full, gulp! Up to 80% is regarded as sane. > > robert> Until he gets to "99 and 44/100ths", it's _no_soap_. I am not using brand X so routing is a little more sane, but the chips run slower. Right now I am running at 96% of 756 CLB's. I could still tweak it to run faster but I don't need the speed for my application. ( 3 MHZ 6809 style memory access ) > Aw, when he gets there we can run the SOAP II optimizer on it :-) > > Nothead > ("Obfac" SOAP was the assembler on the IBM 650) Don't have a IBM 650. All I got from that era is a book on programing the IBM 1620. Did use a IBM-1130 how ever. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html To prevent BANISHMENT from this news group, I did use a PDP-8 too. ###### From: Ben Franchuk Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:06:44 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3C181B44.D273998D@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C181A35.BC5CF691@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8179 Ben Franchuk wrote: > slower. Right now I am running at 96% of 756 CLB's. I could still > tweak it to run faster but I don't need the speed for my application. > ( 3 MHZ 6809 style memory access ) Correction 576 CLB's. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: 13 Dec 2001 13:21:00 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1008285661 4283 128.171.80.135 (13 Dec 2001 23:21:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2001 23:21:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8202 >>>>> "robert" == robert writes: >> FPGA 93% full, gulp! Up to 80% is regarded as sane. robert> Until he gets to "99 and 44/100ths", it's _no_soap_. Aw, when he gets there we can run the SOAP II optimizer on it :-) Nothead ("Obfac" SOAP was the assembler on the IBM 650) ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: 13 Dec 2001 16:25:57 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C1958A5.E94EB6A1@Empire.Net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1008296757 16365 128.171.80.135 (14 Dec 2001 02:25:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 2001 02:25:57 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!137.192.6.2!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8203 >>>>> "John" == John Sauter writes: John> Jim Thomas wrote: ("Obfac" SOAP was the assembler on the IBM 650) John> John Sauter responded: John> Grandpa, tell us about the IBM 650! Now that was a real machine ..... :-) ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA References: <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C181A35.BC5CF691@jetnet.ab.ca> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 14 Dec 2001 10:11:10 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 6 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 14 Dec 2001 10:17:18 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8201 Ben Franchuk writes: > Don't have a IBM 650. All I got from that era is a book on programing > the IBM 1620. Not the same era. The 1620 is a *modern* computer; it uses those new-fangled "transistor" things. ###### From: Ben Franchuk Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:28:18 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3C1A52D2.8432925D@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C181A35.BC5CF691@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.online.be!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8178 Eric Smith wrote: > > ISTR that the 650 used a circular memory thingy. Granted, it was one > big circular memory thingy rather than a whole mess of little ones. Here is a bit on the rebuild of a British Machine, using CRT memory. http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/ssem/ssemhome.htm What if any tube/valve computers still run today? -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: 14 Dec 2001 12:35:45 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C181A35.BC5CF691@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1008369345 28392 128.171.80.135 (14 Dec 2001 22:35:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 2001 22:35:45 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.onenet.net!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8204 >>>>> "Eric" == Eric Smith writes: Eric> Ben Franchuk writes: >> Don't have a IBM 650. All I got from that era is a book on programing >> the IBM 1620. Eric> Not the same era. The 1620 is a *modern* computer; it uses those Eric> new-fangled "transistor" things. Not to mention all those new-fangled little circular memory thingies. Nothead (Yes, there was an option for 100 words of core later on, but ... :-) ((The main memory was 2000 words of 10 digits each on a drum.)) ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA References: <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> <6u8zccxgrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C181A35.BC5CF691@jetnet.ab.ca> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 14 Dec 2001 14:58:48 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 14 Dec 2001 15:05:00 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8198 Ben Franchuk wrote: > Don't have a IBM 650. All I got from that era is a book on programing > the IBM 1620. I wrote: > Not the same era. The 1620 is a *modern* computer; it uses those > new-fangled "transistor" things. Jim Thomas wrote: > Not to mention all those new-fangled little circular memory thingies. ISTR that the 650 used a circular memory thingy. Granted, it was one big circular memory thingy rather than a whole mess of little ones. ###### From: gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Wants/needs - was Re: Another DEC computer in an FPGA Date: 18 Dec 2001 19:21:56 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9vo50k$5da@gap.cco.caltech.edu> References: <3BE73260.E916A5E2@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzo5yywwz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sehaj$rm5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6ubsidasnh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9sf55t$btk@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6uvggifpqq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6u4rn161xl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C12576F.650012FF@jetnet.ab.ca> <6ug06l46im.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C127BE6.B419E5B@jetnet.ab.ca> <3C13976F.1B95146D@ NNTP-Posting-Host: zloty.ugcs.caltech.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!gah Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:8297 Arthur Krewat writes: >Ben Franchuk wrote: >> >> >So much for using an PC as IO subsystem :-). >> I use mine as a DUMB TERMINAL... too bad you need a 386 >> not to lose serial @ 9600 baud. >Running what, Windows? :) >I use a '286 w/Kermit and never lose characters at 9600 - 38400 >maybe yes, but 9600 is perfect. I used to run PCRoute on a 10MHz 8088 at 57600. It just depends on how well the interrupt routine is written. (PCRoute wouldn't do 57600 at 8MHz, it was that close.) -- glen